Avatara wrote:I'd presume for stealth missions that they would turn off their broadcasting system on the death head transport.
Why bother? Erin Tarn and a 1/2-dozen other humans walked right through their territory, literally under a tree where more than a dozen were sleeping, and not one of them even detected them. So in the meanwhile the CS is using secret and restricted channels to communicate - I'm betting that the gargs aren't going to notice this either.
sword-dancer wrote:Dog_O_War wrote:,
Dude, it's an army. Of millions. That don't generally walk anywhere but rather blacken the sky with their numbers. A 12 year-old kid who spent a year in cub-scouts could "track" them. Now add to this CS rangers with radios, long-range viewing capabilities, as well as radar that has hundreds of miles of range (and yes, 15-foot tall flying humanoids will register on said radar); can you honestly say that these non-natives are going to "blend in, and disappear"? Maybe as well Marcus Brody did in the Last Crusade.
,.
Then explain me please, how has tne NGR somuch problems with the Gargoyles if they act so stupid, which Divination the CS Rangers use to be there knowing where the G argoyle Air wing flys..
Read the above - that's how. A single troop or unit capable of actual stealth will have no problem. As for the NGR - they're dumb (strategically speaking). Why are they dumb? Well (and not to defame the writers or anything, but) the NGR is sending too few troops against too poor target(s). That is, a single infiltrator attempts to kill the king; that's stupid, especially sinse he was a suicide-trooper without a bomb. Now, that may have been just a story but think about it; if that's how they're "doing it" in tales, then my God they must be incompetent. There's no deviousness - no human ingenuity there. Atleast the Coalition knows not to look a gift-horse in the mouth (or whatever the saying is).
Lobo wrote:Dog_O_War wrote:See, we could say the same thing about the Afganies too. "Wow, they got stinger missiles!"No, they have some advanced tools, but they do not actually have any advanced tech. I mean, what happens when the suit gets damaged? Do gargoyle-shops and garages repair these? Or are we looking at them having little to no ability to repair their "tech"? I believe it's much closer to the latter.
Or they could be paying for 'technical advisers' to fix their stuff. After all we Americans have been selling high tech equipment to low tech countries for decades and we do the 'technical adviser' thing to maintain and repair their tech too. I am sure future Rifts nations can figure out this lucrative business practice as well.
And are they listed as doing this? Or are they simply running back to the Angel of Death when crap breaks? I'ma bet on the latter.
Lobo wrote:Dog_O_War wrote:Dude, it's an army. Of millions. That don't generally walk anywhere but rather blacken the sky with their numbers. A 12 year-old kid who spent a year in cub-scouts could "track" them. Now add to this CS rangers with radios, long-range viewing capabilities, as well as radar that has hundreds of miles of range (and yes, 15-foot tall flying humanoids will register on said radar); can you honestly say that these non-natives are going to "blend in, and disappear"? Maybe as well Marcus Brody did in the Last Crusade.
So Germany and Japan had armies of millions too. The area of land is so huge even whole armies can get lost. Besides you still keep making the gargoyles act about as stupid as they could possibly act. If they survived and kept the NGR(a country more advanced than the coalition) on the ropes for this long, I think they are not as stupid as you make them out to be. Also they can fly below the radar, they would not have a stall speed like a jet. A gargoyle frying at treetop level, literally brushing the treetops, would be very hard to pick out among the ground clutter.
Germany and Japan weren't exactly invading the most technologically advanced nations at the time though. Also that's some pretty amazing flight-trick going on there; too bad that doesn't leave out arial surveilance, but instead enables it with great ease. Also, the only reason they've had the NGR "on the ropes" for so long is because the NGR wasn't always the technological juggernaut it is today. coincedentally, the gargoyles have had little to no technologial advancement - something that historically ruins a civilization (the longbow; the catapult; the rifle; the cannon; the plane; the tank; etc...).
Lobo wrote:Dog_O_War wrote:Yeah, but back in germany they also had the minor semblance of an economy going on too. Yet now they lack their slaves and stock-piles and must hunt and gather supplies for millions in a foriegn and hostile territory.
Or they are smart and set up new supply and utilize the rich slave stock in the lands outside Coalition territory to get a 'beach head' in NA.
Or not. "Hey guys, we're invading a nation, but lets set up an economy with the natives we're invading! We'll just tell them that we're here only to duke it out with the CS; our diplomats'll convince 'em with that. They'll forget our invasion-level numbers instantly!" Yeah, that's gonna work real well.
Lobo wrote:Dog_O_War wrote:Well for one, Lazlo and company aren't going to like millions of hungry gargoyles chowing down on the empire of man. After all, they are their biggest silent trading partner. I mean really - where do you think all the black-market goods go? Outside the empire of man? No; see out there they just call them "goods". Sans the "black market" and all that.
Next, you've got the Federation of Magic with their "deep" hatred of the CS. Oh wait - the fed-o-magic actually has humans dedicated to the protection of the CS. I'm betting that at the very best (for the Gargoyles) they won't interfere. Then there's Merctown; a place that literally suvives on the success of the dominion of man and doesn't really bite into the whole "slave-trade" thing (for the most part). Besides this, with the CS's apparently infinite line of creds they can afford to hire all the mercs anyways. Then we have the "evil bandits" you speak of. You're going to get as many fighting the gargoyles as you will the CS. Except that the CS knows how to deal with the "evil bandits" of NA, while the gargoyles don't.
Finally, you're reaching for the outer-rim allies here. I mean what intel do the gargs have that would give them any indication that the pecos empire, the Calgary demons, or any other smaller factions actually exist way across the ocean? I'm betting it's none.
Lazlo may or may not stay out of the war. They stayed out of Tolkeen and that was a sister nation in trouble. Lazlo's best bet though would be to make a very public offer to help the Coalition which they know the Coalition will refuse then sit back and let the Gargs and Dead Boys beat each other senseless while Lazlo secretly helps human and d-bee refugees leave the war areas. That safeguards their nation from war and a future threat in the Coalition who will most likely win in their eyes but won't be in any shape to expand or harm Lazlo for decades.
They won't stay out of the war; as I stated previously the CS is their biggest consumer. Maybe you like losing your customers/business to conflict, but I'll bet on the majority of people out there don't - even if they do hate the person they sell to.
Lobo wrote:Gargs can buy mercs same as the Coalition and Atlantis has a huge market for inter dimensional Mercs that makes Merctown look like a convenience store next to the Mall of America.
Wrong; the gargs can attempt to buy mercs. See, unlike the supposed "Mall of America" Atlantis is a den of scary friggin' gangsters who would rather just rob and kill anyone attempting to buy as much "merc"handise as the the gargs would need to in order to have any noteable amount of force added. See, the mercs of merctown consist of armies - which is what the gargoyles are going to need if they want to compare and compete. Far as I know, Gargoyles aren't really the "major-players" you're making them out to be in Atlantis; more like a disorganized street-gang.
Lobo wrote:Once again you are making the gargoyles be the dumbest kids on the block incapable of any strategy whatsoever. There is probably spies already in NA working for the Gargs. There are after all many thousands of gargoyles/gurgoyles already in NA in various towns and even their own little kingdoms. Tolkeen had several thousand at least. Not to mention Atlantis is a place where you can buy anything including information and spies.
With all their magic and "superior tactics" they let a human in a gargoyle-suit take a pot-shot at their lord. Seems pretty dumb to me. As for what tolkeen
had, it sure did them a whole heap of good - those
gargoyle stratagists that is.
Lobo wrote:Dog_O_War wrote:First you talk about how I don't give the gargoyles "the same credit", then you talk about how tolkeen (a seperate, distant and technologically advanced society) were beating the CS right before they lost. What do they have to do with each-other? In this case, the gargoyles are the losing force here (against the NGR), but they for the purposes of this "comparison" are given an auto-defeat of the NGR. The CS had no such auto-defeat; they had a real defeat of their enemy. That defeat was because the enemy was foolish. The CS can now effectively learn from their mistakes. The gargoyles though? "Gee, I hope another act of god defeats our enemies again - cause we don't take away any noteable lession from our previous conflict".
I'm not exactly sure what you are talking about. My NGR book is in storage but I don't ever remember reading that the garg's were losing to the NGR. I seemed to recall that it was at a stalemate but the garg's were suddenly coming into new technology that was causing the war to swing in their favor and scaring the heck out of the NGR. I could be wrong though. As to that last part about act of god or whatever, that is the lamest debate reasoning I have ever seen. The CS did not 'really' defeat Tolkeen because this is a 'make believe' game world. So if people 'make believe' that the Gargs defeated the NGR then it carries as much weight as the CS's 'make believe' defeat of Tolkeen. Seriously you might want to step away from the game table if you can't see how absurd your statement was LOL.
All you did here was attempt to "discredit" what was written in the games' canon by stating that the CS "didn't really defeat tolkeen because it's fictional." That's a total failure to debate on your part because that is exactly what we're talking about - how one fictional nation could combat and defeat another.
Perhaps you are the one who needs to step away?
Lobo wrote:Dog_O_War wrote:Again; how did these non-fliers get here?
More pointedly; how do they supposedly keep up with the flying forces of gargs, or even know where these CS bases and stockhouses even are?
Oh yeah, they aren't here, and even if they were they don't really know where the CS keeps it's stockpiles or bases.
The gargoyles would not have lasted 6 months against the NGR the way you have them behaving. There is no reason to suggest that the garg's can't have scouts/spies same as us. And I assume they would use reasonable tactics like not having their air power so far out pace their ground forces that they become separated forces that are easy to destroy. Again if they behaved this way the war between the Gargs and NGR would not have lasted so many years.
You're talking about having a group of luddites gaining good intel in a nation more than 10 times the size as the NGR in a matter of weeks/months that the gargoyles are putting to use to shut down this opponent. They couldn't do this with
80 years of intel against their next-door neighbor - how the hell are they supposed to act then?
Lobo wrote:Dog_O_War wrote:Coincedentally, Tolkeen got defeated. And they (as previously stated) had better magicians the the gargs do. You're talking about sending lesser and less numerous casters to deal with a problem that they cannot effectively see nor predict.
A) Tolkeen actually won the war originally. It was their own stupidity and complacency and the fact that Quebec and Coalition made peace, freeing up whole divisions of troops, that lost Tolkeen the war in the end. B) Unless you have some numbers to back it up I don't know why the gargs have less mages than Tolkeen. C) there is already text (in the dimensional market Slave book) that the gargoyles buy the services of or enslave psychics and mages for their war effort, so that's another resource at their disposal.
A) It's not over 'til it's over. They didn't "win" anything - they made the final fatal flaw of giving quarter. That is what I call '
losing the war to your own ego'.
B) Hmm; a magical nation of creatures that were
reknowned and feared for their armies of casters versus the odd gargoyle warlock. The numbers are in the CS war campaign-books.
C) Yes, but not on any level the CS won't already be used to dealing with.
Lobo wrote:Dog_O_War wrote:Did the gargoyles win?
Nope.
Arguement over.
If there are any gargoyles left in NA then yes they won. Even if all the NA gargs died the Empire would live on because there are likely to be a few hundred thousand gargs back in Germany (remember they defeated the NGR, you said so
)managing their holdings and keeping the beaten German people as breeding slave stock. So yeah if the CS goes nuke happy the Gargs win.
Oh and I would guess all the gargs/gurgs came over via rifts or maybe via the corrupted millennium tree. I doubt they would fly millions that far.
This is a futile statement made to lessen the consession you made earlier about the CS being able to use nukes. If the CS were able to use nukes, then you have your answer; gargoyle defeat.