Gargoyle Empire vrs Coalition ..

[Lenwen]

Not adding anything for either side .. a strickly AS IS scenario .. just instead of being located in Europe the Garg empire is sitting on the Coalitions doorstep of Chi-Town .

No conscription ..
No new Tech to either they get what they have ...
The Brodkil empire which has roughly 11+million Brodkil alone are supposed to be a fraction of what the Garg empire is sizewise .. so that gives us a template to go with for overall numbers ..

Armies against Armies ..

No nukes , no teleporting into chi-town for thier magic users ..

Flat out and out war ..

As is for each ..

Who wins ..

[Pepsi Jedi]

Why take nukes away from an army that uses them when needed? Seems you're stacking the deck.

[Lenwen]

Why take nukes away from an army that uses them when needed? Seems you're stacking the deck.

I also took away thier ability to teleport directly into Chi-Town with as many nukes needed to destroy each and every CS Fortress city ...

After all ..

Lets be real about something here ... Had the Tolkeen war went the REAL way .. the CS has NO way to stop a magic user from Teleporting directly into each CS Fortress city with several nukes .. an detonating each nuke the second they arrived ..

I did not in your words .. "stack the deck" I in fact made it equal . I took away nukes from both parties .

[rat_bastard]

The NGR has many times the troops with superior equipment and experience fighting gargoyles that vastly outstrips the Coalitions.

The Gargoyles would wipe the CS off the map in weeks.

[Pepsi Jedi]

There's been explanation as to why mages don't teleport in hasn't there? Something about redundant and overlapping wards of some sort preventing it? I know I read about mention of it recently but forget which book it's in exactly.

Someone else will remember. Help me out with a book? I'll look it up and post.

[Lenwen]

There's been explanation as to why mages don't teleport in hasn't there? Something about redundant and overlapping wards of some sort preventing it? I know I read about mention of it recently but forget which book it's in exactly.

Someone else will remember. Help me out with a book? I'll look it up and post.

Yes , It was a Rifter .. and a none canon article ..

In canon bud zero explanation as to why its never happened yet ..

[Lenwen]

The NGR has many times the troops with superior equipment and experience fighting gargoyles that vastly outstrips the Coalitions.

The Gargoyles would wipe the CS off the map in weeks.

I 100% completly agree .

[Pepsi Jedi]

Why take nukes away from an army that uses them when needed? Seems you're stacking the deck.

I also took away thier ability to teleport directly into Chi-Town with as many nukes needed to destroy each and every CS Fortress city ...

After all ..

Lets be real about something here ... Had the Tolkeen war went the REAL way .. the CS has NO way to stop a magic user from Teleporting directly into each CS Fortress city with several nukes .. an detonating each nuke the second they arrived ..

I did not in your words .. "stack the deck" I in fact made it equal . I took away nukes from both parties .

Even if you take out the teleportation wards, Rifts after math says directly

Aftermath: Page 182: In most instances the gargoyles and their minions could never design, build or even repair a device as simple as a flashlight. but they know how to use and maintain simple weapons and Equipment"

The gargoyles don't have nukes to teleport in. They can't even build a flashlight. They buy all their tech via slave trade, and they aren't getting tactical nuclear weapons that way.

Again your arguments mislead.

[Lenwen]

Why take nukes away from an army that uses them when needed? Seems you're stacking the deck.

I also took away thier ability to teleport directly into Chi-Town with as many nukes needed to destroy each and every CS Fortress city ...

After all ..

Lets be real about something here ... Had the Tolkeen war went the REAL way .. the CS has NO way to stop a magic user from Teleporting directly into each CS Fortress city with several nukes .. an detonating each nuke the second they arrived ..

I did not in your words .. "stack the deck" I in fact made it equal . I took away nukes from both parties .

Even if you take out the teleportation wards, Rifts after math says directly

Aftermath: Page 182: In most instances the gargoyles and their minions could never design, build or even repair a device as simple as a flashlight. but they know how to use and maintain simple weapons and Equipment"

The gargoyles don't have nukes to teleport in. They can't even build a flashlight. They buy all their tech via slave trade, and they aren't getting tactical nuclear weapons that way.

Again your arguments mislead.

The fact of the matter is your making me laugh here ..

I can and will do some qouting as well then Pepsi ..

First paragraph on the page -
For the First time in eons they have established a more organized society and have adopted some of the ways of humans , using weapons , and machines modeled after mans .

No the Gargoyles do not make thier own weapons armors and bots .. this clearly shows who does ..

Emporer Zerstrun has been savvy enough to make alliances with the New Phoenix Empire , Mindwerks , brodkil , gene-splicers and other forces , to acquire modern weapons , equipment and knowledge .

That little bit from the NGR book makes me believe thier leaders are smart enough to realize they could do this very thing simply by purchasing a nuke or several .. they could easily do this ..

As you see Thier smart enough to make alliances an purchase all the Armor , Bots , and weapons along with the know how to utilize those very things .. they would eventually be smart enought to put this weak of a plan into motion ..

Thats why I said no nukes ..

[Pepsi Jedi]

But there are no nuclear weapons on the market to buy.

Nor are they going to sell an empire of sub demons nukes.

Nor is there anything in any of the books saying the gargoyles have nukes.

"It'd be smart" does not equate to ability or means to put the plan in motion.

The CS has nukes. It's used nukes on enemies less than 1000 miles from their capital. They can and will lob them if needed.

[Talavar]

Moving beyond the pointless nuke discussion, I don't think the gargoyles actually have greater numbers than the brodkil; Aftermath suggests that in a war between the Gargoyles & the brodkil the gargoyles would win, but most gurgoyles are going to be tougher than brodkil, let alone gargoyles, gargoyle mages & gargoyle lords, so they could be numerically equivalent or even somewhat less numerous than the brodkil.

As with the brodkil, I think it comes down to how many gargoyles & gurgoyles are equipped with the high technology they've begun to use. The CS war machine is highly mechanized, and though their standard troops are at a major disadvantage vs. standard gargoyles/gurgoyles, their robots & power armour are a major advantage over those same standard gargs.

Who wins? Probably the gargoyles. NGR has a larger, more mechanized army, and they've been unable to defeat the gargoyles. The CS doesn't have any advantages that the NGR doesn't that would turn the tide against the Gargoyle Empire (except maybe script immunity).

[Lenwen]

1) - But there are no nuclear weapons on the market to buy.

2) - Nor are they going to sell an empire of sub demons nukes.

3) - Nor is there anything in any of the books saying the gargoyles have nukes.

4) - "It'd be smart" does not equate to ability or means to put the plan in motion.

5) - The CS has nukes. It's used nukes on enemies less than 1000 miles from their capital. They can and will lob them if needed.

1) - Atlantis , Mindwerks , New Phoenix Empire can and all do have nukes .. they can produce them and their actually Trade partners WITH the Gargoyle Empire ..

2) - See Allies ...

3) - Again .. see allies ... ( Note- ANYTHING can be bought in Atlantis .. I'd suggest that goes doubly so for thier allies )

4) - Nor does it equat to thier NOT being able to put plan to motion ...

5) - Your point ? The mear fact that just because you said the Gargoyles do not have nukes .. does not mean they lack the ability to attain those nukes ... nor put a plan into effect to teleport into Chi-Town or any other Fortress city to detonate those nukes ...

Hence the reason I took away those nukes ..

Like it or not .. just because its not written they have them .. its not against canon that they very well COULD attain them simply because thier allies with BOTH .. The Phoenix Empire AS WELL AS Atlantis ...

nuff said bout the nukes ..

Talavar ..

No where in print in any books does it say the Gargoyles empire is smaller then the Brodkil . It flat out stats that the Brodkil empire is but a mear fraction of the size and power of the Gargoyle Empire .

[Vrykolas2k]

There's been explanation as to why mages don't teleport in hasn't there? Something about redundant and overlapping wards of some sort preventing it? I know I read about mention of it recently but forget which book it's in exactly.

Someone else will remember. Help me out with a book? I'll look it up and post.

Yes , It was a Rifter .. and a none canon article ..

In canon bud zero explanation as to why its never happened yet ..

Wards are magical.
The CS doesn't use magic.
No wards.
What Rifter is that, btw?

[Pepsi Jedi]

1) - But there are no nuclear weapons on the market to buy.

2) - Nor are they going to sell an empire of sub demons nukes.

3) - Nor is there anything in any of the books saying the gargoyles have nukes.

4) - "It'd be smart" does not equate to ability or means to put the plan in motion.

5) - The CS has nukes. It's used nukes on enemies less than 1000 miles from their capital. They can and will lob them if needed.

1) - Atlantis , Mindwerks , New Phoenix Empire can and all do have nukes .. they can produce them and their actually Trade partners WITH the Gargoyle Empire ..

Atlantis is not going to give them nukes. It says the splooge is concerned with them using modern weapons (( because most supernaturals don't)) and is ready to swoop in and take them out if need be. Right now the Gargoyles are holding NGR from being a hassel, but Splynn is watching and ready to interceed if needed.

Mindwerks are backing the Brodkil, and outfitting them to war aginst the Gargoyles for the right to fight the NGR, they're not giving the gargyoles nukes even if they have them. Which I don't remember them having. (( Could be wrong, but cite me a page number))

New Phenoix empire has nukes to pass out to a hostile sub demon supernatural army? I don't remember that being the case, but I'm not perfect. Cite me a page number stating the NPE has tactical nuclear weapons. And if there is one, a page saying they sell them.

It's a BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG Jump from "Selling laser rifles and rail guns" to "Selling tac nukes"

2) - See Allies ...

3) - Again .. see allies ... ( Note- ANYTHING can be bought in Atlantis .. I'd suggest that goes doubly so for thier allies )

Not if the Sploog doesn't like nor trust you. And is watching to make sure you don't get too powerful.

And it states in NGR that the Atlantis Gargoyles don't like the ones from the Gargoyle empire.

4) - Nor does it equat to thier NOT being able to put plan to motion ...

Lack of said tactical nuclear weapons DOES.

5) - Your point ? The mear fact that just because you said the Gargoyles do not have nukes .. does not mean they lack the ability to attain those nukes ... nor put a plan into effect to teleport into Chi-Town or any other Fortress city to detonate those nukes ...

Hence the reason I took away those nukes ..

Like it or not .. just because its not written they have them .. its not against canon that they very well COULD attain them simply because thier allies with BOTH .. The Phoenix Empire AS WELL AS Atlantis ...

nuff said bout the nukes ..

Well it doesnt say they don't have the SDFIII either... but I don't think they can get it.

Show me where the Phoenix Empire has and sells nukes and you might have a possibility. Atlantis isn't going to do it.

[Pepsi Jedi]

There's been explanation as to why mages don't teleport in hasn't there? Something about redundant and overlapping wards of some sort preventing it? I know I read about mention of it recently but forget which book it's in exactly.

Someone else will remember. Help me out with a book? I'll look it up and post.

Yes , It was a Rifter .. and a none canon article ..

In canon bud zero explanation as to why its never happened yet ..

Wards are magical.
The CS doesn't use magic.
No wards.
What Rifter is that, btw?

If I remember correctly (( and I might not)) It was a sort of TW Ward... but they .... reverse engineered techno wizardry, to the point that it was like... hyperscience or something...

So it WAS basically Technowizardry, but they called it something else and were able to use it because they labeled it something else.

But it's been a while since I read it. Don't quote me DIRECTLY on it. But I know the THOUGHT was more or less that.

[Lenwen]

There's been explanation as to why mages don't teleport in hasn't there? Something about redundant and overlapping wards of some sort preventing it? I know I read about mention of it recently but forget which book it's in exactly.

Someone else will remember. Help me out with a book? I'll look it up and post.

Yes , It was a Rifter .. and a none canon article ..

In canon bud zero explanation as to why its never happened yet ..

Wards are magical.
The CS doesn't use magic.
No wards.
What Rifter is that, btw?

If I remember correctly (( and I might not)) It was a sort of TW Ward... but they .... reverse engineered techno wizardry, to the point that it was like... hyperscience or something...

So it WAS basically Technowizardry, but they called it something else and were able to use it because they labeled it something else.

But it's been a while since I read it. Don't quote me DIRECTLY on it. But I know the THOUGHT was more or less that.

Rifter 37 .

And again .. it was magic .. they simply handwaviumed away the magical aspect of it and instead gave it "Hyper" name in stead of the "Magic" name ..

**EDIT**
That rifter article .. was again .. none canon..

[Pepsi Jedi]

Yeah went and looked it up.

"outside consulting, suspected Vanguard help"

And they developed these rings that could psionicly keep out teleportation, astral spying and the like.

Since then they've put them up around all CS big citys and big bases, and have multible redundantcy in their use. Chi town itself having over 100 rings (( when one ring has a 98% chance of working I belive. I do admit to skimming)) In varying crop circle like patterns. No two patterns alike.

It is optional materiel. But does explain why you don't just teleport into chi town any more.

[Lenwen]

Yeah went and looked it up.

"outside consulting, suspected Vanguard help"

And they developed these rings that could psionicly keep out teleportation, astral spying and the like.

Since then they've put them up around all CS big citys and big bases, and have multible redundantcy in their use. Chi town itself having over 100 rings (( when one ring has a 98% chance of working I belive. I do admit to skimming)) In varying crop circle like patterns. No two patterns alike.

It is optional materiel. But does explain why you don't just teleport into chi town any more.

Exactly ... Optional .. means none canon .. heh like I been saying .

[Lenwen]

1) - But there are no nuclear weapons on the market to buy.

2) - Nor are they going to sell an empire of sub demons nukes.

3) - Nor is there anything in any of the books saying the gargoyles have nukes.

4) - "It'd be smart" does not equate to ability or means to put the plan in motion.

5) - The CS has nukes. It's used nukes on enemies less than 1000 miles from their capital. They can and will lob them if needed.

1) - Atlantis , Mindwerks , New Phoenix Empire can and all do have nukes .. they can produce them and their actually Trade partners WITH the Gargoyle Empire ..

Atlantis is not going to give them nukes. It says the splooge is concerned with them using modern weapons (( because most supernaturals don't)) and is ready to swoop in and take them out if need be. Right now the Gargoyles are holding NGR from being a hassel, but Splynn is watching and ready to interceed if needed.

Mindwerks are backing the Brodkil, and outfitting them to war aginst the Gargoyles for the right to fight the NGR, they're not giving the gargyoles nukes even if they have them. Which I don't remember them having. (( Could be wrong, but cite me a page number))

New Phenoix empire has nukes to pass out to a hostile sub demon supernatural army? I don't remember that being the case, but I'm not perfect. Cite me a page number stating the NPE has tactical nuclear weapons. And if there is one, a page saying they sell them.

It's a BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG Jump from "Selling laser rifles and rail guns" to "Selling tac nukes"

2) - See Allies ...

3) - Again .. see allies ... ( Note- ANYTHING can be bought in Atlantis .. I'd suggest that goes doubly so for thier allies )

Not if the Sploog doesn't like nor trust you. And is watching to make sure you don't get too powerful.

And it states in NGR that the Atlantis Gargoyles don't like the ones from the Gargoyle empire.

4) - Nor does it equat to thier NOT being able to put plan to motion ...

Lack of said tactical nuclear weapons DOES.

5) - Your point ? The mear fact that just because you said the Gargoyles do not have nukes .. does not mean they lack the ability to attain those nukes ... nor put a plan into effect to teleport into Chi-Town or any other Fortress city to detonate those nukes ...

Hence the reason I took away those nukes ..

Like it or not .. just because its not written they have them .. its not against canon that they very well COULD attain them simply because thier allies with BOTH .. The Phoenix Empire AS WELL AS Atlantis ...

nuff said bout the nukes ..

Well it doesnt say they don't have the SDFIII either... but I don't think they can get it.

Show me where the Phoenix Empire has and sells nukes and you might have a possibility. Atlantis isn't going to do it.

1) - Atlantis is thier ally . Anything can be bought for the right price in Atlantis .. the fact that the Gargoyles of Atlantis do not like the Gargoyles from the Empire is not even remotly have anything to do with Lord Splynn being the Empires ally ..

2) - If Emporer Zerstrun himself went directly to Lord Splynn and flat out told him his plan to nuke the cities of the Coalition ..

Lord Splynn would use his magics to look an see if the Emp was telling the truth .. Sure enough .. the Emp is telling the truth ..

Lord Splyn is crazy enough to GIVE those nuk's FREE OF CHARGE to the Emp JUST to see if it is accomplishable ...

EVERYONE would agree on this .. thats not even debateble ...

Thats the reason I said .. no Nukes ...

[Pepsi Jedi]

1) - But there are no nuclear weapons on the market to buy.

2) - Nor are they going to sell an empire of sub demons nukes.

3) - Nor is there anything in any of the books saying the gargoyles have nukes.

4) - "It'd be smart" does not equate to ability or means to put the plan in motion.

5) - The CS has nukes. It's used nukes on enemies less than 1000 miles from their capital. They can and will lob them if needed.

1) - Atlantis , Mindwerks , New Phoenix Empire can and all do have nukes .. they can produce them and their actually Trade partners WITH the Gargoyle Empire ..

Atlantis is not going to give them nukes. It says the splooge is concerned with them using modern weapons (( because most supernaturals don't)) and is ready to swoop in and take them out if need be. Right now the Gargoyles are holding NGR from being a hassel, but Splynn is watching and ready to interceed if needed.

Mindwerks are backing the Brodkil, and outfitting them to war aginst the Gargoyles for the right to fight the NGR, they're not giving the gargyoles nukes even if they have them. Which I don't remember them having. (( Could be wrong, but cite me a page number))

New Phenoix empire has nukes to pass out to a hostile sub demon supernatural army? I don't remember that being the case, but I'm not perfect. Cite me a page number stating the NPE has tactical nuclear weapons. And if there is one, a page saying they sell them.

It's a BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG Jump from "Selling laser rifles and rail guns" to "Selling tac nukes"

2) - See Allies ...

3) - Again .. see allies ... ( Note- ANYTHING can be bought in Atlantis .. I'd suggest that goes doubly so for thier allies )

Not if the Sploog doesn't like nor trust you. And is watching to make sure you don't get too powerful.

And it states in NGR that the Atlantis Gargoyles don't like the ones from the Gargoyle empire.

4) - Nor does it equat to thier NOT being able to put plan to motion ...

Lack of said tactical nuclear weapons DOES.

5) - Your point ? The mear fact that just because you said the Gargoyles do not have nukes .. does not mean they lack the ability to attain those nukes ... nor put a plan into effect to teleport into Chi-Town or any other Fortress city to detonate those nukes ...

Hence the reason I took away those nukes ..

Like it or not .. just because its not written they have them .. its not against canon that they very well COULD attain them simply because thier allies with BOTH .. The Phoenix Empire AS WELL AS Atlantis ...

nuff said bout the nukes ..

Well it doesnt say they don't have the SDFIII either... but I don't think they can get it.

Show me where the Phoenix Empire has and sells nukes and you might have a possibility. Atlantis isn't going to do it.

1) - Atlantis is thier ally . Anything can be bought for the right price in Atlantis .. the fact that the Gargoyles of Atlantis do not like the Gargoyles from the Empire is not even remotly have anything to do with Lord Splynn being the Empires ally ..

Page 197 NGR "Even lord Splynncryth of Atlantas has become concerned. At first he found the gargoyle Emprire to be very amusing--excellent entertinment and a good market for the sale of weapons and miscellaneous supplies. However with the sudden introduction of power armor, robots, and major (unknown) Playuers like Mindwerks, and gene splicers, the conflict has taken a new and disturbing twist. If the Empire grows too powerful, it will fefinitely change the dynamics of politics on earth-- particularly among supernatural forces. The Earth, with thousands of dimensional rifts is toovaluable a commodity for any one power to control, especially gargoyle sub demons. For now Lord Splynncryth simply observes. He has slow sales to the empire but wants to keep ties with them to beter spy on these ambitious upstarts."

They are not going to sell tactical nuclear weapons to an empire that they think bears watching and are slowing the sale of frigging pistols, rifles and rail guns to.

Just like Iran hates the US but it's not going to give Iraq insurgents Nukes. Because the insurgents are dangerous and they don't kow what they'd do. Might turn around tomarrow and have a nuke lobbed at them. You don't just pass out weapons of that lvl to people. You just don't. You keep them. You surely don't pass them out to groups that might pose a threat. Which the gargoyles do.

2) - If Emporer Zerstrun himself went directly to Lord Splynn and flat out told him his plan to nuke the cities of the Coalition ..

Lord Splynn would use his magics to look an see if the Emp was telling the truth .. Sure enough .. the Emp is telling the truth ..

Lord Splyn is crazy enough to GIVE those nuk's FREE OF CHARGE to the Emp JUST to see if it is accomplishable ...

EVERYONE would agree on this .. thats not even debateble ...

Sure it is. You don't pass out WMD's. You most especially don't pass them out if you're already slowing you normal arms sales.

ANd more over. Splyn isn't the Gargoyles friend. He has his own Gargoyles. He's not their ALLY. He's their pimp or drug dealer. He sells them guns. Rifles. Rail guns. It's many many many many orders of magnitude to jump from rail gun to TAC NUKE.

A Tac Nuke that could be lobbed at the dimensional market and frak up all that Splyn has spent 100s of years building up.

The US is allies with England, but if England wanted to nuke France we're not giving them Nukes. You just don't DO that. If you want France dead you nuke them yourself. You don't give people, even your FRIENDS Nukes. Ever. And Splyn isn't their friend. He thought they were funny and made him money.
They were amusing customers. Now they're not so amusing, and are less customers than they once were.


He gains NOTHING if they win the war. Infact he looses his market if they win, and then has to worry about them himself. He gains the most from another 300 years of them fighting the NGR. It keeps the NGR from messing with Atlantis and keeps the Gargoyles from messing with earth, and keeps them buying rifles and railguns and eclips and bullets, because as stated, the Gargoyles couldn't even fix a flashlight. They're certainly not going to be able to fix MD weapons. Maintain? Sure. When it breaks they throw it away and buy another. (( in their minds))

So no. Splyn is not going to equip his customers with nukes that 1) could be used against him and the Dimensional Market or 2) End the war and stop the gargoyles need for new and more weapons and supplies, and make them a threat to himself.

[Lenwen]

So no. Splyn is not going to equip his customers with nukes that

1) could be used against him and the Dimensional Market or

2) End the war and stop the gargoyles need for new and more weapons and supplies, and make them a threat to himself.

Wrong again , It would take at MOST a dozen large scale nukes to destroy 3 fortress cities ..

After using his magic .. Lord Splynn would see the truth that the garg Emp was indeed telling the truth ..

You are not playing Lord Splynn as he would be played .. which is wrong in the first place cause lets be real about something here ... he loves the excitement that Rifts earth gives him .. there is a reason that he Lord Splynncryth dident go and try to stop the 4 horsemen of the apoclypse .. ( and believe me that would have been cake for Lord Splynn) but he dident .. what did he an his Atlantis do ?

They placed bets on the whole 4 Horsemen debacle .. even tho it would have cut all HIS profits from the face of Rifts earth HAD the 4 horsemen actually merged into the Apocolypse Beast .. by destroying everything on the earth ... which was a real possability ..

If the Gargoyles bring nukes from Atlantis .. and teleport them in with thier magics .. and detonate them ... that is a VERY real problem ..

Yes , Lord Splynn is CRAZY enough to GIVE the Garg Emp nukes large enough to destroy the Fortress cities .. and prolly give them to the Emp for Free .. JUST to see if it could be done ..

I do not think your playing Lord Splynn as he is written..

[cornholioprime]

The NGR has many times the troops with superior equipment and experience fighting gargoyles that vastly outstrips the Coalitions.

The Gargoyles would wipe the CS off the map in weeks.

What he said.

The Gargoyles would destroy the Coalition, easily, for the same reasons that the CS would destroy the Brodkil.

One force -the Brodkil -is completely 'ground-bound;' the other is essentially a fleet of millions of flying tanks.

The CS gets overrun like it's the world's worst Cockroach infestation, in very short order.

BTW: Not to pick a dog in anyone else's fight here, but it only makes sense to take the Coalition Nukes out of the equation -with them, every single "Who vs. Who?" question has only one answer where the Coalition is involved (except with Powers like the Vampires and the Splugorth). This is a simple "troops vs. troops" question, and we should treat it as such without the deus ex machina that the Golden Age Nuclear Stockpile represents.

[Dustin Fireblade]

If the Gargoyle Empire was based in North America, who would supply them with what little tech they currently have? Who would maintain it? Other than possibly Atlantis that is?

[dark brandon]

This question amounts to...

Who would win...a naked CS soldier with a sling shot or a 20 foot demon from hell that has a knife to the CS soldiers neck.

VOTE NOW!

I mean...it's just...well...

I'm going to answer the question as I see fit...rather than abide by the ridiculous rules set forth by the Original Poster and make it a proper mental exercise.

I say, CS would win. CS would have access to nukes and have no problem using them. Assuming all millions were gathered poised to take chi-town, a few nukes would end them rather quickly. The only difference is that NGR is either unwilling or Unable to make nukes to use against the Garg empire. Also, by a game stand-point, nukes just aren't fun. In all honesty, if anything like this WERE in some way to occure, NGR probably would have beaten the gargs by now. They'd probably have access to nukes and would have nuked the leader long ago. Simply put, NGR vehicles are faster than gargs can fly and should have no trouble dropping a bomb from up on high. On that note, they haven't because the gargs are important to adventuring in Europe, and make for a good enemy.

As such, Gargs don't have much in the way of range, magic, speed even fire power. They have numbers, and CS has a way to thin large numbers out. Even with the Gargs teleporting powers, they lack any real leadership. At best you have a Garg king who has a tenuous hold on his empire.

Also, it makes no sense for CS who has been primed to fight one type of enemy use the same tactics as another. If Gargs were the CS's main enemies (as opposed to small city-states), their tactics and evolution in weapondry would reflect that. You'd probably see Dog boys (Or more to my liking, bat boys) trained to use and fly SAMAS. They'd probably stick to small, personal armors, as opposed to large targets, using the gargs size to their advantage.

[Lenwen]

Well said DB ..

But if I may ..

retort .. while the CS would launch thier nukes ...

The Gargoyle mages would in fact simply go to atlantis .. pick up several dozen nukes ...

Head back to thier respective empire on N.A. soil .. near CS territory .. shrink down ... make thier journey into CS territory ..
And then simply teleport inside the Fortress cities with info and pictures they had bought for them while they were out gathering the respective Nuke's themselves ...

Each Fortress City would be Ported in by no less then 50 Garg Mages each ..
1 in 10 of those mages.. holding a city buster Nuk and each set for a specified time ... ( all in synch of course)
After Each Mage has been ported into the Fortress city .. they simply use radio's tellin everyone thier in ..
Then they wait till the detonation goes off ..

By by Coalition ..

Since the CS can not stop Teleportation into thier Fortress Cities ...

Gargoyles do in fact already use Radios as per NGR book , And they are intelligent enough to higher Merc's ( NGR BOOK ) that they would already know they need a picture and a vivid description of the place they wish to teleport to ..

Each Fortress City in the Coalition .. has 50 mages running around in them all holding something that appears to be a bomb of some kind ..

Only 1 in 10 of them are holding the REAL DEAL ... thats 5 nuks .. per city ..

That would be the end of each city ..

That would be the end of the CS ..

Now .. this is exactly why I said .. no nukes ..

But its ok .. go head in your own thread or what ever man use them .. Thier just TOO easy to end the whole conflict .. the fact of the matter is that I wanted a straight up fight ... military vrs Military ...

Not a nuke scenario ... hence me saying NO nukes .. its just TOOO easy for the Garg's to teleport into the CS fort Cities .. and nuke them like crazy .. just like its too easy for the CS to simply hut a button ..

If this scenario .. of yours .. This is how I see it happening .. and I very well could be wrong .. it is after all YOUR scenario ..

First Strike (Nukes) would go to the CS .. they would litterally destroy 50-75% of the total Gargoyle population ...
Which means thier will still be millions more Gargoyles .. btw ..
Now the Gargoyles seeing the weapon of mass destruction ... back off for a couple months .. Learn about what it was that the CS hit them with ...
Then Emp Zerstrun would simply go out and gather as many of them as possible .. And Put into motion this Teleporting into the Fortress cities .. of the CS ... with the nukes ...

Second Strike .. Nukes .. Goes to Emp Zerstrun , Teleporting 50 gargoyle mages in with 1 in 10 of those holding a nuke meaning 5 nukes going off in different parts of the cities .. and all at the same time ... destroying utterly each city ..

Yes the CS would use thier nukes an take out a VAST majority of the Gargoyle empire ... But that empire is Moveable ... 100% every single 1 of them can fly ..

The CS is not as fortunate as the Garg Empire is .. They would have to deal with it .. cause it will happen..

Thats Scenario 1 ..

Scenario 2 ...

The Gargoyle empire simply knows the CS has no where near the personal nor mechanized units the NGR has .. and launches an offensive .. simply overwhelming the CS purely by numbers ...

How is the CS going to launch thier nukes when the fact of the matter is that the VERY Fortress Cities themselves are under siege by a force that is anywhere from twice the size to 10times larger then every force they ever faced COMBINED ...

[dark brandon]

Well said DB ..

But if I may ..

retort .. while the CS would launch thier nukes ...

The Gargoyle mages would in fact simply go to atlantis .. pick up several dozen nukes ...

Head back to thier respective empire on N.A. soil .. near CS territory .. shrink down ... make thier journey into CS territory ..
And then simply teleport inside the Fortress cities with info and pictures they had bought for them while they were out gathering the respective Nuke's themselves ...

Each Fortress City would be Ported in by no less then 50 Garg Mages each ..
1 in 10 of those mages.. holding a city buster Nuk and each set for a specified time ... ( all in synch of course)
After Each Mage has been ported into the Fortress city .. they simply use radio's tellin everyone thier in ..
Then they wait till the detonation goes off ..

By by Coalition ..

Since the CS can not stop Teleportation into thier Fortress Cities ...

Gargoyles do in fact already use Radios as per NGR book , And they are intelligent enough to higher Merc's ( NGR BOOK ) that they would already know they need a picture and a vivid description of the place they wish to teleport to ..

Each Fortress City in the Coalition .. has 50 mages running around in them all holding something that appears to be a bomb of some kind ..

Only 1 in 10 of them are holding the REAL DEAL ... thats 5 nuks .. per city ..

That would be the end of each city ..

That would be the end of the CS ..

Now .. this is exactly why I said .. no nukes ..

I disagree with your assessment. I don't think the Gargs would ever do that. They aren't nuke barers...I doubt they've even ever heard of a nuke, nor do I think they would ever get a detailed enough vision of CS to teleport inside before the CS has finished them off. I'm even giving you the benifit of the doubt that Atlantis has nukes, dispite your very own ruleing that no one can give anyone anything they don't already have (Argued or not, it's not canon that Atlantis has nukes)

But its ok .. go head in your own thread or what ever man use them .. Thier just TOO easy to end the whole conflict .. the fact of the matter is that I wanted a straight up fight ... military vrs Military ...

Not a nuke scenario ... hence me saying NO nukes .. its just TOOO easy for the Garg's to teleport into the CS fort Cities .. and nuke them like crazy .. just like its too easy for the CS to simply hut a button ..

If this scenario .. of yours .. This is how I see it happening .. and I very well could be wrong .. it is after all YOUR scenario ..

First Strike (Nukes) would go to the CS .. they would litterally destroy 50-75% of the total Gargoyle population ...
Which means thier will still be millions more Gargoyles .. btw ..

I don't see the CS being so sloppy as to leaving this many Gargs alive.

Now the Gargoyles seeing the weapon of mass destruction ... back off for a couple months .. Learn about what it was that the CS hit them with ...
Then Emp Zerstrun would simply go out and gather as many of them as possible .. And Put into motion this Teleporting into the Fortress cities .. of the CS ... with the nukes ...

Emp Zerstrun would definatly be hit and most likely killed. At this point the entire empire falls apart and the sub demons are pretty much either pushed back into the west or into hell. Both relitivley the same. As noted in Triax/NGR, this is empire is unusual even for them, and even emp Zer doesn't have complete control over it.

The Gargoyle empire simply knows the CS has no where near the personal nor mechanized units the NGR has .. and launches an offensive .. simply overwhelming the CS purely by numbers ...

How is the CS going to launch thier nukes when the fact of the matter is that the VERY Fortress Cities themselves are under siege by a force that is anywhere from twice the size to 10times larger then every force they ever faced COMBINED ...

CS would probably launch their nukes and decimate their own cities before letting it fall to demons. In this senario, it's a pyric victory. Gargs win...but at the cost of their empire.

[Lenwen]

CS would probably launch their nukes and decimate their own cities before letting it fall to demons. In this senario, it's a pyric victory. Gargs win...but at the cost of their empire.

How would it cost them thier Empire ?

The only damage that the Garg's would take is the intial blast ..

After they have finished off killing every man woman and child left after the nuke's went off ...

The Garg's simply move out of the radiation ..

Regenerate ..

Sure it would take out litterally millions of thier empire .. but considering that canon states that the Brodkil empire which is anything from 10+Million strong is only a mear fraction of the Gargoyle empire .. whats wrong with sending 2 million per CS fortress city .. in waves till the CS is utterly destroyed ... by its own nuclear stockpile ..

Heck sending in even just 1 million at a time would even be more per CS Fortress City would be able to handle by themselves .. Considering that no CS City alone has a military over a 1 million strong by itself .. and if it does look at that .. mearly send 1 million more Gargoyles .. and then its just a massacre ..

The Gargoyle empire is 100% mobile down to the last gargoyle ..

The CS while its military is as mobile as anything in Rifts ... world ... Its Fortress Cities .. are very much vulnerable by waves of attacks at the hands of the untold millions strong Gargoyle Empire ..

I for 1 believe the Empire would crush the CS in little less then 2 months .. at most ... and quite possible in less then 1 month ..

[Pepsi Jedi]

You've still failed to prove where the Gargoyles could possibly get a nuke.

Splyn isn't going to give them one. He's cutting back on sales of normal weapons. He's not giving them nukes. He doesn't trust um. Nukes could mess up his playground and shift the power balance. And remove his customers from the fight that has been going on for 100s of years, in a fell swoop. There's just no logical reason for Splyn to give them a nuke. Remember. Splyn doesnt' care about the CS or the NGR, they're 'non factors' to him.

No proof of the Pheonix having them to give. Nor reason if they had.

No proof of Minwerks having them and they're now backing the Brodkil.

[rat_bastard]

You've still failed to prove where the Gargoyles could possibly get a nuke.

Splyn isn't going to give them one. He's cutting back on sales of normal weapons. He's not giving them nukes. He doesn't trust um. Nukes could mess up his playground and shift the power balance. And remove his customers from the fight that has been going on for 100s of years, in a fell swoop. There's just no logical reason for Splyn to give them a nuke. Remember. Splyn doesnt' care about the CS or the NGR, they're 'non factors' to him.

No proof of the Pheonix having them to give. Nor reason if they had.

No proof of Minwerks having them and they're now backing the Brodkil.

Considering the first nuclear weapons where developed in the early 1940s any of those places that have their tech level as "mid 20th century" could conceivably create a nuclear warhead. Its not that hard to get your hands on a nuke, the Angel of death could whip one up without difficulty.

As for mindworks not having nukes, that's only true if you completely ignore their bionic manufacturing. This micro nuclear reactors don't just appear out of thin air you know.

[dark brandon]

How would it cost them thier Empire ?

The only damage that the Garg's would take is the intial blast ..

After they have finished off killing every man woman and child left after the nuke's went off ...

The Garg's simply move out of the radiation ..

Regenerate ..

Sure it would take out litterally millions of thier empire .. but considering that canon states that the Brodkil empire which is anything from 10+Million strong is only a mear fraction of the Gargoyle empire .. whats wrong with sending 2 million per CS fortress city .. in waves till the CS is utterly destroyed ... by its own nuclear stockpile ..

Heck sending in even just 1 million at a time would even be more per CS Fortress City would be able to handle by themselves .. Considering that no CS City alone has a military over a 1 million strong by itself .. and if it does look at that .. mearly send 1 million more Gargoyles .. and then its just a massacre ..

The Gargoyle empire is 100% mobile down to the last gargoyle ..

The CS while its military is as mobile as anything in Rifts ... world ... Its Fortress Cities .. are very much vulnerable by waves of attacks at the hands of the untold millions strong Gargoyle Empire ..

I for 1 believe the Empire would crush the CS in little less then 2 months .. at most ... and quite possible in less then 1 month ..

Just because you kill everyone in the fortress city doesn't mean you've killed everyone in the CS. Many nukes are probably held in the city, as well as on CS cruisers. You're also assuming that CS just fired it at those in the city...chances are they'll unload their payload on all known garg locations as well as vendeta strikes from CS cruisers.

Finally, Gargs are not tacticians. As long as the CS can catch them 50 miles way from their city, there really isn't any reason they couldn't nuke them from the start.

Unless you want the "Who would win...a naked CS soldier with a sling shot or a 20 foot demon from hell that has a knife to the CS soldiers neck." where you're simply stacking the deck against the CS just for the sake of stacking the deck against them. Putting CS in the place of NGR there's a good many hundreds of miles between where Chi-town would be and where the gargs would start.

[dark brandon]

Considering the first nuclear weapons where developed in the early 1940s any of those places that have their tech level as "mid 20th century" could conceivably create a nuclear warhead. Its not that hard to get your hands on a nuke, the Angel of death could whip one up without difficulty.

As for mindworks not having nukes, that's only true if you completely ignore their bionic manufacturing. This micro nuclear reactors don't just appear out of thin air you know.

Conceivably, but by the OP original statement, you can't give them something they don't have. As written, the only nation that has nukes is CS.

Now, one could make a very valid argument as to why many nations should have it, but then you'd have to do like me and change the rules of the topic.

[cornholioprime]

Would ANY of you folks who keep pulling the "Nuke" card.....


.....KINDLY tell me just how effective even city-buster Nukes would be against a foe that exists and lives and fights at all different altitudes would work??

Also, isn't it NOT a vs. Thread when in your scenario, you allow the CS to get off their Nukes in the first place??

"CS vs. Gargoyles, who would win??" implies that the OP wants to see which side would win in a straight-up fight........and that the OP is NOT asking you to 'end' the contest prematurely by putting those Nukes in.

[rat_bastard]

Considering the first nuclear weapons where developed in the early 1940s any of those places that have their tech level as "mid 20th century" could conceivably create a nuclear warhead. Its not that hard to get your hands on a nuke, the Angel of death could whip one up without difficulty.

As for mindworks not having nukes, that's only true if you completely ignore their bionic manufacturing. This micro nuclear reactors don't just appear out of thin air you know.

Conceivably, but by the OP original statement, you can't give them something they don't have. As written, the only nation that has nukes is CS.

Now, one could make a very valid argument as to why many nations should have it, but then you'd have to do like me and change the rules of the topic.

Saying they don't have nukes because none are listed is like saying they don't have machine guns. They have the technology to whip them up, its not that difficult.

[dark brandon]

Considering the first nuclear weapons where developed in the early 1940s any of those places that have their tech level as "mid 20th century" could conceivably create a nuclear warhead. Its not that hard to get your hands on a nuke, the Angel of death could whip one up without difficulty.

As for mindworks not having nukes, that's only true if you completely ignore their bionic manufacturing. This micro nuclear reactors don't just appear out of thin air you know.

Conceivably, but by the OP original statement, you can't give them something they don't have. As written, the only nation that has nukes is CS.

Now, one could make a very valid argument as to why many nations should have it, but then you'd have to do like me and change the rules of the topic.

Saying they don't have nukes because none are listed is like saying they don't have machine guns. They have the technology to whip them up, its not that difficult.

No, no, I agree. But, unfortunatly, by the rules...they can't have anything not listed.

[dark brandon]

Would ANY of you folks who keep pulling the "Nuke" card.....


.....KINDLY tell me just how effective even city-buster Nukes would be against a foe that exists and lives and fights at all different altitudes would work??

Very. I believe the majority of the Garg empire are the ground based/flightless gurgoyles and what not...

Also, isn't it NOT a vs. Thread when in your scenario, you allow the CS to get off their Nukes in the first place??

"CS vs. Gargoyles, who would win??" implies that the OP wants to see which side would win in a straight-up fight........and that the OP is NOT asking you to 'end' the contest prematurely by putting those Nukes in.

Using nukes is part of the straight up fight. And a big part. If you don't like it that's fine. But it's part of their arsenal created for just such occasions.

(Edit, meant Gurgoyles, not Gargoylites)

[Pepsi Jedi]

Considering the first nuclear weapons where developed in the early 1940s any of those places that have their tech level as "mid 20th century" could conceivably create a nuclear warhead. Its not that hard to get your hands on a nuke, the Angel of death could whip one up without difficulty.

As for mindworks not having nukes, that's only true if you completely ignore their bionic manufacturing. This micro nuclear reactors don't just appear out of thin air you know.

Conceivably, but by the OP original statement, you can't give them something they don't have. As written, the only nation that has nukes is CS.

Now, one could make a very valid argument as to why many nations should have it, but then you'd have to do like me and change the rules of the topic.

Saying they don't have nukes because none are listed is like saying they don't have machine guns. They have the technology to whip them up, its not that difficult.

The Gargoyles don't make or design tech though.

Both the NGR book and Aftermath state clearly (( in nearly if not totally identical text)) that the gargoyle empire couldn't fix something as simple as a flashlight if it broke.

They, the Gargoyle Empire, is not building their own nukes. It's a pretty big jump from "flashlight" to "Tactical nuclear weapon" and if they can't even fix a flashlight... I'm kinda of the mind that tac nuke might be past them.

As for the others like mindwerks, yes they have nuclear reactors, (( and micro ones at that)) But a reactor does not a tac nuke make. Lots of countrys around the world have Nuclear reactors but those with tactical nuclear weapons are far fewer.

But most of all, this setting isn't earth as __we__ know it. It's earth as presented in setting by the designers. Those designers have seen fit to NOT give nukes to all the evil nations out there. Nor all the human ones either. They have given nukes to one or some. So if we're playing in their worlds, that's what we go by.

You're more than welcome to change the game (( it's even encouraged)) but once you do, you're into custom game and not the same one everyone else is playing.

[cornholioprime]

Would ANY of you folks who keep pulling the "Nuke" card.....


.....KINDLY tell me just how effective even city-buster Nukes would be against a foe that exists and lives and fights at all different altitudes would work??

Very. I believe the majority of the Garg empire are the ground based/flightless gurgoyles and what not...

Also, isn't it NOT a vs. Thread when in your scenario, you allow the CS to get off their Nukes in the first place??

"CS vs. Gargoyles, who would win??" implies that the OP wants to see which side would win in a straight-up fight........and that the OP is NOT asking you to 'end' the contest prematurely by putting those Nukes in.

Using nukes is part of the straight up fight. And a big part. If you don't like it that's fine. But it's part of their arsenal created for just such occasions.

(Edit, meant Gurgoyles, not Gargoylites)

Since you apparently find yourself forced to repeatedly fall back on the Nukes-as-last-resort, you inadvertently agree with the Poster (and almost everyone else here) that the Garoyles would mop the floor with the CS one-on-one, even if you don't say the actual words.

P.S.: As their chief supplier, Splynncryth WOULD be able to get the Gargoyles Nukes, easily, from Phase World (along with MUCH nastier weapons if need be), since the Splugorth collectively own an entire floor on Center, and since Splynncryth would as part of his game give the Gargs Nukes in order to keep the Playing Field 'level and the 'Game' interesting.

So, if you're going to continue to take the cheesy way out and say, "The Coalition uses its Nukes," then I for one am going to turn right around and say, "Splynncryth supplies the Gargoyles with Nukes and they subsequently use them in a reprisal attack to wipe out virtually every human in the CS territories of North America."

Which, for the record, STILL ends up with a victory for the Gargoyles over the Coalition since they are high-MDC, quasi-supernatural creatures that regenerate and since they are only vulnerable to radiation in the form of U-Rounds, not the secondary effects of nuclear fallout.

So let's stop spamming the Coalition Nukes, shall we?? It's the lazy way out of answering a pretty good Thread question.

[Nekira Sudacne]

The basic reason I find this to be a fault premise to compare them to the NGR is because the senario for the Gargoyles vs NGR was different.

Then, about a hundred years ago, there were far, far less gargoyles for the NGR to fight. Which is good, because you can't bet Triax didn't have the huge army they do now when they first showed up. In fact, the army the NGR has now likely dosn't remotely resemble the army they had when they first started fighting the gargoyles, because the army they have right now is specifically geared to fight flying mega damage beings in trench warfare. In short, the NGR wins because the NGR army adapted to fight the enemy they are facing.

If you take that away from an army, ANY army, then that army will loose. No army in history has survived if it did not adapt. What the coalition army is like right now, if, say, you somehow teleported the entire gargoyle empire right where the New West is right now, you can better beleive the coalition army would be making changes in a matter of days.

Also remember that gargoyles suffer from Logistical problems as much as Humans do. They still need to eat. They still need to know where to go and what to do when they get there. In short, the Gargoyles would themselves not simply attack en masse, but would launch probing attacks to test the coalitions capabilities and vise versa.

Then they would BOTH start adapting and changing. Once the gargoyles realize that the Coalition isn't designed for trench warfare, they will start large raiding and hit and run attacks.

Meanwhile, the coalition would be busy communicating with their allies in Triax giving them whatever they want to get the tactics and technology they need to fight them.


In short, i'm saying that I think that the Coalition would settle down into trench warfare with the gargoyles until the gargoyles and xiticix got annoyed with each-other and broke out into war there.

[Lenwen]

1) - You've still failed to prove where the Gargoyles could possibly get a nuke.

2) - Splyn isn't going to give them one. He's cutting back on sales of normal weapons. He's not giving them nukes. He doesn't trust um.

3) - Nukes could mess up his playground and shift the power balance.

4) - And remove his customers from the fight that has been going on for 100s of years, in a fell swoop.

5) - There's just no logical reason for Splyn to give them a nuke. Remember.

6) - Splyn doesnt' care about the CS or the NGR, they're 'non factors' to him.

1) - I have , Lord Splynncryth is crazy enough to just GIVE the Nukes to the Gargs ( he is thier ally) just to see if thier plan works ... And not to mention crazy enough to put odds on it in his Kingdom ..

2) - Just because you refuse to believe that Spluncryth HAS nukes .. and that he is in fact Crazy enough to just give them away and then start a whole new "Gambling" type event out of the whole thing .. does not mean he wont .. (Remember the Gambling about the 4 Horsemen of the Apocolypse)

3) - Nukes wont be going off on Atlantis .. ( His Playground ) no worries there ...

4) - The coalition never has been and never will be Lord Splynncryths "Customers" Your dead wrong friend ..

5) - Thats the whole thing your not I repeat ... NOT understanding ... Just because it makes no sence does not put it out of the Realm of possabilities .. that Lord Splynncryth would NOT do it .. Lord Splynncryth does as he pleases .. regaurdless of what transpires to the world around HIS atlantis..

6) - Wrong again , Lord Splynn does care what happens .. he even places bets on the more "dangerous" situations that are likely to draw in either nation .. Which is 1 thing he takes much delight in .. and is 1 of the various reasons he loves the "Excitment" that is Rifts earth ..

[Pepsi Jedi]

1) - You've still failed to prove where the Gargoyles could possibly get a nuke.

2) - Splyn isn't going to give them one. He's cutting back on sales of normal weapons. He's not giving them nukes. He doesn't trust um.

3) - Nukes could mess up his playground and shift the power balance.

4) - And remove his customers from the fight that has been going on for 100s of years, in a fell swoop.

5) - There's just no logical reason for Splyn to give them a nuke. Remember.

6) - Splyn doesnt' care about the CS or the NGR, they're 'non factors' to him.

1) - I have , Lord Splynncryth is crazy enough to just GIVE the Nukes to the Gargs ( he is thier ally) just to see if thier plan works ... And not to mention crazy enough to put odds on it in his Kingdom ..

But he's not. I've already quoted you page and text, where Lord Splynn is all "huh?????" about what the Gargoyles are doing. And is worried about them using too many weapons and not acting enough like normal Gargoyles.

and he's not their ALLY. He's their arms dealer. There's a world of difference there. Arms dealers the world round are only your friend till the other side pays you more. Splynn doesn't "Like" the gargoyles or respect them or anything. They give him money (slaves) and keep the NGR from being a thorn in his side. And were (( Past tense)) a source of amusement. They're not now. They're edging up on annoyance.

And again. No mega-power purposefully elevates another to mega power status. He would never think to give another society weapons that would make them a danger to himself.

2) - Just because you refuse to believe that Spluncryth HAS nukes .. and that he is in fact Crazy enough to just give them away and then start a whole new "Gambling" type event out of the whole thing .. does not mean he wont .. (Remember the Gambling about the 4 Horsemen of the Apocolypse)

No, because the book you love so much says he doesn't trust um and is cutting back. And he's not stupid enough to give other people weapons that could screw him over. "Oh he's craaaaaaaaaazy! DUH HUH" No.. he'd have to be STUUUUUUUUUUUPID. And as mean and wacked as he is. He's not a moron.

3) - Nukes wont be going off on Atlantis .. ( His Playground ) no worries there ...

Riiiiiiight because power mad sub demon legions are TRUSTWORTHY! They'll take tactical nuclear weapons and only use them for good and light! Never would they turn aginst their masters. Noo Not sub demons. Never.

Noooo Nukes big enough to take out all of the NGR (( or the CS)) wouldn't have any sort of fall out.. Or cause nuclear winter... They could never harm Atlantis... Much less the CS throwing the nukes back at them (( or at everyone)). Or the rifts that would open up due to all the people dieing. Nooo nukes will go off and fluffy flowers will flow out, killing his enemies and making a pastoral garden of eden with frolicking female alien intelligences for all to slime and grope.

You're equating a Nuke to Iran giving the Iraq insurgency some machine guns and car bombs. They're not the same thing. Nukes would put the gargoyles up close to equals on the power scale. The Intelligence is never... EVER.... going to elevate a buncha sub demons like that.

4) - The coalition never has been and never will be Lord Splynncryths "Customers" Your dead wrong friend ..

No Lenwen.. The gargoyles.

If they win the war. They don't buy more weapons. They're removed from being customers.

If they get nukes BOOM war over. No more profit.

No nukes, and juuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuust enough weapons to keep the NGR fighting back... war goes on for 100s of years (( Like it has)) COOOOOOOOOOOOONSTANT Selling of wepons and materials. MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY!!!

Take that away... noooo money. Unhappy Splynn.

5) - Thats the whole thing your not I repeat ... NOT understanding ... Just because it makes no sence does not put it out of the Realm of possabilities .. that Lord Splynncryth would NOT do it .. Lord Splynncryth does as he pleases .. regaurdless of what transpires to the world around HIS atlantis..

But you can bet he's going to do what benifits him the most. The war ending benifits him the least. He looses money from sales of weapons and equipment, and he's got a buncha nuke toating sub demons that feel all frisky spreading out over europe (( or the US)) and will need new people to mess around with. And now they have the bombs you give them? No.

He's going to look out for number 1. Just like in the NGR book he's already going "Ok these guys... not so funny any more. Gotta cut back on their stuff or they're gong to get uppity"

He's not going to go from "Cutting back on their stuff to keep them in check" to "GIVING THEM THE ULTIMATE I WIN BUTTON WEAPON so they can be ASSURED of becoming problems, problems of his own making.

It's bad for him.

6) - Wrong again , Lord Splynn does care what happens .. he even places bets on the more "dangerous" situations that are likely to draw in either nation .. Which is 1 thing he takes much delight in .. and is 1 of the various reasons he loves the "Excitment" that is Rifts earth ..

*shakes head* But he doesn't CARE about the NGR or the CS.

In his mind they're toys. To be played with and used when needed and left till they're needed again. He doens't concider either of them threats (( and by the books he could rift in PLANETS worth of troops and take them out any time he chooses,)) They just don't rate high enough for him to bother with.

Right now they're 'taking out the trash'. So he lets them alone. If he kills them all. Then HE has to spend HIS forces to ... turn back the gargoyles or the Xitichic or the Vampires or the Brodkil. Right now.. the humans do it for free. They're fun to poke at. They're a good source of slaves (( The evil supernaturals love to eat um and pluck their arms off like flies))

You're equating them to dogs in a dog fighting ring. Sure the guy that watches the fight has fun, but he's not emotionally invested in the dog. It's barbaric and just a blood sport.

Splynn sees humans and humanity as funny little animals that can be put to use. Not things to preserve or honor. If they die. He's got other toys to play with. But for the moment they amuse at times. nothing more than that.

[dark brandon]

So, if you're going to continue to take the cheesy way out and say, "The Coalition uses its Nukes," then I for one am going to turn right around and say, "Splynncryth supplies the Gargoyles with Nukes and they subsequently use them in a reprisal attack to wipe out virtually every human in the CS territories of North America."

Which, for the record, STILL ends up with a victory for the Gargoyles over the Coalition since they are high-MDC, quasi-supernatural creatures that regenerate and since they are only vulnerable to radiation in the form of U-Rounds, not the secondary effects of nuclear fallout.

So let's stop spamming the Coalition Nukes, shall we?? It's the lazy way out of answering a pretty good Thread question.

I disagree. Splynn would never sell the gargs nukes. As I said. this wasn't a good question.

"Who would win...a naked CS soldier with a sling shot or a 20 foot demon from hell that has a knife to the CS soldiers neck."

That's what the original statment amounted to.

Giving the CS nukes...not even giving, allowing them to have what is theirs and a weapon that is used specifically for this reasoning, is going to make this a much more interesting discussion. A cohesive argument can be built upon this, this can be something worth arguing, which is why I changed it to make it a more fair reasoning.

Hell you were willing to let them have it (when you were asking about their efficiency) when I mentioned that not all gargoyles can fly.

[Dog_O_War]

Since you apparently find yourself forced to repeatedly fall back on the Nukes-as-last-resort, you inadvertently agree with the Poster (and almost everyone else here) that the Garoyles would mop the floor with the CS one-on-one, even if you don't say the actual words.

The question is biased though. This whole thread is a mask on the "can the CS beat the NGR?" thread. It's a mask because the people who believe the CS would beat the NGR (due to a war on two fronts scenario; a historical losing battle for Germany), kept citing that as the game-ender.

Now he's using that as a "well then the Gargoyles would kill the CS right after!" scenario.

And there are other factors to this as well. Note how the CS must have the Gargoyles at their door-step, AND they can't use nukes. Basically he's set it up to give the CS no where to run. Fact of the matter is that the CS would have thousands of miles to grind the Gargoyles down without nukes in an actual scenario. End of story. CS wins hands down.

P.S.: As their chief supplier, Splynncryth WOULD be able to get the Gargoyles Nukes, easily, from Phase World (along with MUCH nastier weapons if need be), since the Splugorth collectively own an entire floor on Center, and since Splynncryth would as part of his game give the Gargs Nukes in order to keep the Playing Field 'level and the 'Game' interesting.

P.P.S: the Gargoyles wouldn't know to use them until they saw them used - which they never have. They'd get nuked and then seek nukes out (which'd be too late by then). Fact o' the matter is that the Gargoyles aren't strategists and wouldn't come up with the idea on their own. The scenario was between the Gargoyle empire and the CS. He's claiming that the Gargoyles get Splynn as an ally, yet the CS doesn't get Germany?!
That's incredibly unfair and one-sided.

So, if you're going to continue to take the cheesy way out and say, "The Coalition uses its Nukes," then I for one am going to turn right around and say, "Splynncryth supplies the Gargoyles with Nukes and they subsequently use them in a reprisal attack to wipe out virtually every human in the CS territories of North America."

And who would Splynn be supplying at this point? Gargoyles are gone; destroyed in a flash of nuclear-light.

Which, for the record, STILL ends up with a victory for the Gargoyles over the Coalition since they are high-MDC, quasi-supernatural creatures that regenerate and since they are only vulnerable to radiation in the form of U-Rounds, not the secondary effects of nuclear fallout.

This only shows a lack of thought put forth on your end then. Also, you'll note that the poll disagrees with you.

So let's stop spamming the Coalition Nukes, shall we?? It's the lazy way out of answering a pretty good Thread question.

The lazy way out was to accept the Bull Lenwen put forth as "fair" scenario.

[Talavar]

As I said in the identical brodkil thread, city-buster nukes aren't particularly workable in this sort of situation. You don't just fire a cruise missile at a group of enemies you can see - you need preplanned & preprogrammed targeting for these things, especially because the CS doesn't have satellite imaging. That means targeting cities - which don't move around - that the gargoyles don't really build, or removing the warheads and putting them in bombs rather than cruise missiles, then dropping them on the massed gargoyles.

This second option is more workable, but only once the gargoyles are grouped into huge armies and committing to an attack, and so the bombings would likely occur in CS territory which isn't good for anyone.

It's not just a win button; even nuclear war has logistical & planning issues.

[glitterboy2098]

give the CS their nukes. moving the gargs to north america should be the main handwave here.

as it is, the CS's nukes aren't going to be much of a help to them in this fight. they have no targets. the garg's have no cities, no bases, no major centers of community. so they have minimal infrastructure for the CS to nuke. the CS mightbe able to deploy LRM tactical nukes to take out larger groupings of garg bots, but all thats going to do is eliminate a few garg-robot force multipliers. the nuclear blasts won't do enough damage to kill more than a handful of gargs at a time, since they aren't typically running around in massive groups. gargs are immune to radiation (remember, U-rounds work because it's the radioactive material that slows down regeneration. not the radiation itself), and even a city buster nuke won't leave enough radioactive material fallout to give a garg more than a bad rash.

so it basically boils down to the CS military verses the Gargoyle tribes in a war of conventional weaponry.

[Dog_O_War]

give the CS their nukes. moving the gargs to north america should be the main handwave here.

I mentioned that - it really makes the scenario lop-sided when you take away the CS's actual greatest advantage - movement.

as it is, the CS's nukes aren't going to be much of a help to them in this fight. they have no targets. the garg's have no cities, no bases, no major centers of community. so they have minimal infrastructure for the CS to nuke.

The infrastructure won't matter as Gargoyles aren't NBC-rated troopers (well, most aren't). They'll still have camps and travel-routes; you set one up on there and you can wipe out entire columns of troops without a single round of opposed fire.

the CS mightbe able to deploy LRM tactical nukes to take out larger groupings of garg bots, but all thats going to do is eliminate a few garg-robot force multipliers. the nuclear blasts won't do enough damage to kill more than a handful of gargs at a time, since they aren't typically running around in massive groups.

You're going off of the tac-nuke missiles. Don't do that - they are miss-representative of the actual thing. You're more-likely to see a 25-mile zone of devistation that alone would be enough to paralyze them with fear and send them into discord. IIRC, Gargolyes aren't mindless robots that are immune to such things.

gargs are immune to radiation (remember, U-rounds work because it's the radioactive material that slows down regeneration. not the radiation itself), and even a city buster nuke won't leave enough radioactive material fallout to give a garg more than a bad rash.

I hope you're not serious with this comment, as that's quite the stretch. That's like stating guns don't kill people, people do.

so it basically boils down to the CS military verses the Gargoyle tribes in a war of conventional weaponry.

except that the CS has been restricted in movement, armaments, tactics (apparently), and logic

[Pepsi Jedi]

Thing is Gargoyles arn't like human military. They don't use tactics like we do.

They "flock" like birds. It's pointed out in the NGR. It's not war planning. A group of Gargoyles jumps up and goes "Lets go kill some humans! YEAH YEAH!!" and take off. The ones around them jump up and go to follow. The ones they fly over or run past (( people forget the flyng gargoyles are like 1 in 100)) See a group moving and they jump into the flock. Then when the flock is big enough they just fly till they find a target and swarm it. No tactics past "Pour on um till they die."

People are making out like the Gargoyles are commando smart and tactical genius.

When the CS sees a gargoyle swarm worthy of being worried about, heading their way they'll have a target to nuke. You shoot for the middle of the mass like 3 miles up. Gargoyles flight speed is very slow in compairison, and let the blast radius take out the middle of the flock (( and probably all of it and a good chunck of surrounding countryside.

The few that dont' die in the blast arn't going to be all hunky dory. They're going to be injured from the shock, the burns the radiation and in no way to put up a fight. Their flock broken they're going to flee, and troops in full environmental body armor or Samus can clean up the scattered and broken scragglers.

Now this is simplifying things, yes. I realize that. But the lack of tactics beyond "Lets sick um" and flock mentality will seriously hurt them aginst an orginized and moble enemy. Remember, if the flock's too big the CS will just move their troops. They can encircle. They can pull troops in from elsewhere.

Flocking here and there, at slow flight speed is easy to track. A CS troop in a jet pack can out run the horde. And remember the flight speed of the Gargoyles is hampered more by the fact that like 99 out of 100 of their troops is swinging though trees like a monkey, on the ground. Not actually flying and advancing as fast.

[glitterboy2098]

as it is, the CS's nukes aren't going to be much of a help to them in this fight. they have no targets. the garg's have no cities, no bases, no major centers of community. so they have minimal infrastructure for the CS to nuke.

The infrastructure won't matter as Gargoyles aren't NBC-rated troopers (well, most aren't). They'll still have camps and travel-routes; you set one up on there and you can wipe out entire columns of troops without a single round of opposed fire.

sure, they have camps. bands of what, a few hundred? maybe a thousand or two? out of how many million? gargoyles don't have "columns" in the traditional military sense. warfare wise, their semi-nomadic tribal hunter-gatherer societies. their warriors, not soldiers. each individual for themselves in battle, each individual has to fend for themselves for supplies, ect. they camp together more for convience than anything else. they don't have the level of organization to build up "armies" in the traditional sense.

read up on the warfare of the plain indian tribes, the Soiux or the comanche. that is the style of campaigning the gargoyles do. lots of quick raids, highly mobile, no "supply train" or "rear areas".

the CS mightbe able to deploy LRM tactical nukes to take out larger groupings of garg bots, but all thats going to do is eliminate a few garg-robot force multipliers. the nuclear blasts won't do enough damage to kill more than a handful of gargs at a time, since they aren't typically running around in massive groups.

You're going off of the tac-nuke missiles. Don't do that - they are miss-representative of the actual thing. You're more-likely to see a 25-mile zone of devistation that alone would be enough to paralyze them with fear and send them into discord. IIRC, Gargolyes aren't mindless robots that are immune to such things.

the problem with their strategic city killers, like the SLBM's on the ohio's or the Tomahawk cruise missiles, is that you need something to aim at. a tomahawk uses a visual identification targeting system. it has to have a picture of what it's supposed to hit. or it has to follow a closely programmed flight plan with a timed detonation.

when your enemy is encamped across most of a continent in bands of hundreds or thousands....good luck managing to find such landmarks. either you'll have such landmarks, but will have your own troops in the region who reported the enemies positions, and thus in the danger zone themselves, or you won't know where to shoot.

the CS's big nukes are Strategic platforms. their designed to be used against large, immobile targets who's location is known well in advance and who's loss will devistate the enemy.

the gargoyles don't have that. they're highly mobile, they carry all their gear with them, leaving no strategic target, and using strategic weapons for tactical effect is not only overkill, it's generally highly ineffective.

gargs are immune to radiation (remember, U-rounds work because it's the radioactive material that slows down regeneration. not the radiation itself), and even a city buster nuke won't leave enough radioactive material fallout to give a garg more than a bad rash.

I hope you're not serious with this comment, as that's quite the stretch. That's like stating guns don't kill people, people do.

serious as the grave.

Triax, p. 142
"Triax has learned that the phenomenal healing power of most (92%) supernatural menaces and creatures of magic are seriously impaired by radioactive material. Not radiation itself, but radioactive material that penetrates the skin."
it also goes into how all radiactive material has this effect.

the nuclear weapons employed by the Cs are copies of the same warheads employed by the modern day US military. this means they are "clean" warheads, generating minimal fallout. this fallout is radioactive, but minute in quantities. for humans, it's danger is higher than for supernatural creatures, since we are not immune to radiation. supernatural creatures immune ot the radiation, and at the levels involved, probably wouldn't be harmed too much by the material itself.

so it basically boils down to the CS military verses the Gargoyle tribes in a war of conventional weaponry.

except that the CS has been restricted in movement, armaments, tactics (apparently), and logic

nope, the CS still has it's armaments. and their fairly good. they still have their tactics, which while not designed to combat such semi-nomadic groups, could be adapted to fight such. and i'm presuming their logic is at least as good as a modern generals (thus moving them up several levels from their observed state during the SoT....)

[glitterboy2098]

awsome thread! I dont think this has been stated but the CS also has a military dicsipline that the gargoyles can not replicate. once the gargoyles are faced with a army that is not running in fear of them,will they break and flee. Just a thought. again awsome thread!

sadly, as entertaining and attractive an idea this is, it is unlikely. the NGR is just as organized and disciplined as the CS (perhaps more in some catagories), and the Gargoyle empire doesn't break and flee when the NGR forces show up. which is the main reason the NGR has been fighting the gargoyles for 80+ years.

even if smaller forces do turn and run, all it does is delay the conflict. eventually those forces will return again, raid, pillage, burn, etc. with an enemy like the gargoyles, a morale victory for your troops (seeing the enemy run away from you) is a net loss for your campaign, since those enemy forces are still out there, and will return again when there is less opposition.

[dark brandon]

sadly, as entertaining and attractive an idea this is, it is unlikely. the NGR is just as organized and disciplined as the CS (perhaps more in some catagories), and the Gargoyle empire doesn't break and flee when the NGR forces show up. which is the main reason the NGR has been fighting the gargoyles for 80+ years.

even if smaller forces do turn and run, all it does is delay the conflict. eventually those forces will return again, raid, pillage, burn, etc. with an enemy like the gargoyles, a morale victory for your troops (seeing the enemy run away from you) is a net loss for your campaign, since those enemy forces are still out there, and will return again when there is less opposition.

Actually, I don't see why NGR hasn't won yet. I'm not saying gargs arn't bad to the bone...but their fly speed is absolutley petty compared to the stuff NGR has. I don't see NGR having trouble supplying it's troops with flying vehicles, so why bother with all these robots that are ground based when you have enemies who take to the sky.

[glitterboy2098]

personally, i sorta understand. again, the gargoyles don't fight using what we would consider "conventional" styles. modern warfare is fixated on discipline, supply lines, combined arms, ect.

gargolyes are a tribal culture. barely above the neolithic if left to their own devices. tribal warfare focuses more on raiding. a group of warriors (not soldiers*) get together, go find enemies, kill, burn, loot, and generally cause chaos. they fight only if the enemy is weaker than them, and run off if a stronger force shows up. often moving on to another weak target.

the Plains wars are a good example of this. the us army had to contend with bands of loosely allied warriors who specialized in high mobility raiding.

the main threat of the gargoyles is the fact they are closely allied bands. unlike the plains tribes, which didn't work together beyond a tribal level, the gargoyles have one group (their "emperor") who has managed to subjugate almost all the other tribes to his will. if he calls them to war, they fly off to war. but not as a big regimented army, but as countless bands of loosely organized warriors, each following the vague plans given to their leaders by the "emperor" and his group. there is little inter band organization. there are no squads, or companies, or regiments. just warbands moving in for pillage and plunder.