Gargoyle Empire vrs Coalition ..

[glitterboy2098]

Realistically I think it would go down somewhat if not alot like has been stated above.

The CS would have to pull back and consolidate to maintain what they have.

Personally I could see he "Islands" of the CS in their territory being a bit more stable, their airforce and death's heads being able to move troops around at 10 to 20 or more the speed of the moving gargoyle forces (( The majority of which travel by foot))

But yeah the CS would have to pull back. Fortify what they have thenn go after the gargoyles.

I do differ, in that I don't think other human nations or other 'good' nations would sit back and not get involved. If the CS falls they have to know they're next. If not first if the gargoyles find out they're out there alone. I think they'd have their own (( smaller)) War going on.

the reason i beleive the other NA powers would get involved is because it would be enevitable. the garg's wouldn't focus just on the CS. in europe, they raid the NGr, tarnow, poland, and the russians. they just have a particular vendetta against the NGR. Gargoyle pschology would have them raiding anyone they perceive as an easy target. so they'd end up fighting lazlo, the tundra-ranger, ect, as well as the CS. and of course they'd be attacking the various villages and towns in the wilderness, which would get the Cyber-Knights involved.

even if the Garg's don't focus their attention on any of these in particular, the other powers would have to get involved, if for nothing else than to keep themselves from looking like an easier target than the CS.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Realistically I think it would go down somewhat if not alot like has been stated above.

The CS would have to pull back and consolidate to maintain what they have.

Personally I could see he "Islands" of the CS in their territory being a bit more stable, their airforce and death's heads being able to move troops around at 10 to 20 or more the speed of the moving gargoyle forces (( The majority of which travel by foot))

But yeah the CS would have to pull back. Fortify what they have thenn go after the gargoyles.

I do differ, in that I don't think other human nations or other 'good' nations would sit back and not get involved. If the CS falls they have to know they're next. If not first if the gargoyles find out they're out there alone. I think they'd have their own (( smaller)) War going on.

the reason i beleive the other NA powers would get involved is because it would be enevitable. the garg's wouldn't focus just on the CS. in europe, they raid the NGr, tarnow, poland, and the russians. they just have a particular vendetta against the NGR. Gargoyle pschology would have them raiding anyone they perceive as an easy target. so they'd end up fighting lazlo, the tundra-ranger, ect, as well as the CS. and of course they'd be attacking the various villages and towns in the wilderness, which would get the Cyber-Knights involved.

even if the Garg's don't focus their attention on any of these in particular, the other powers would have to get involved, if for nothing else than to keep themselves from looking like an easier target than the CS.

Oh I agree. I was saying I do not think thay they would NOT get involved.

Saying that they would. *Nods* Including NG and Lazlo, N.Lazlo ect.

[Pepsi Jedi]

What part of my discussion is childish? The whole thread is basically a hypothetical situation with ridiculous circumstances added. Also, saying that labeling things as good and evil is childish is also ridiculous. People are judged on a whole by their actions. The CS in its current state is far more evil than good. They wiped out an otherwise peaceful civilization of magic users (Tolkien), are on a mission of total genocide, have archaic view points that keep them from embracing a needed new "technology" in order to survive in the future (magic), and they like to keep their people docile sheep that don't ask questions. Yes, that sounds really good to me (being sarcastic).

Well I replied to your post a few pages back, point by point. You could go back and read that. But yes it's childish to think that 'Oh evil nations will let evil armys of other nations march though their turf to get at other nations they don't like.'

And no, Labeling SUB DEMONS as evil is not ridiculous. Nor is calling the FoM evil childish. It's how they're presented.

As for the CS? Is it Evil? Depends on a goodly number of things. I don't agree with a good deal of their dictates and some of the stuff they do is indeed evil, but that even tends to be held by the rulers and ordered down. The average citizen working at the Coalitionn 7-11 in chi town isn't evil by nature. Just like the average Germann in WWII wasn't evil. But the leader using the army as a fist was.

The CS does many many bad things. Things I wouldn't do and would have to stand aginst. They also do good for humans as well and fight demons and other evil when they can. Does that make them good? Does keeping safe, millions of humans from the demons and monster's from the rifts make up for their Xenophobic views? It depends on how you play them in your games. In my own the CS are more gray than black. They arn't quite so zealously xenophobic as some others play them.

Tolkeen wasn't exactly Lazlo either, they had a good number of evil people there and in power andd did indeed call on army's of demons and such during the war. They provoked the CS in their own ways and their tactics and turning to the dark during the war didn't win them any halos when they died.

I'm not saying that the CS are white hats. Far from it. And it's leaders have some mighty evil view points. But if you've got the gargoyles on one side and the CS on the other. The CS do shine pretty bright.

[dark brandon]

They wiped out an otherwise peaceful civilization of magic users (Tolkien),

Just to note, by the time the war comes...Tolkeen isn't exactly good. Remember, they ended up allieing themselves with demons. Now, the argument could be stated that before the war tolkeen at one time was a "good and peaceful" nation...but the fact they changed revels a lot about them.

are on a mission of total genocide,

Partially true. They are not interested in complete genocide, in so far as there is no indication they will go to other worlds to eradicate life. Quite the contrary, they seem just dead set on staying and keeping earth.

have archaic view points that keep them from embracing a needed new "technology" in order to survive in the future (magic),

Well, there is nothing "new" about magic. There is plenty of cause to be alarmed from using magic if not understood. An example is the LL rifter who develops insanities due to his connection with the Ley lines. The research scientist in CWC developed some ley line walker abilities and study the phenomenon known as magic. There is also indication in SOT they would be interested in things like the Ley line rift defense system. I think they are more apprehensive about magic for 2 reasons. 1) Unknown. 2) allowing one person to wield that much power. I believe that if the RS in CWC develop means to explain and use magic via technology CS would start to use it much more.


and they like to keep their people docile sheep that don't ask questions. Yes, that sounds really good to me (being sarcastic).[/quote]

[Pepsi Jedi]

Ok, first, why wouldn't the Federation of magic allow an army that is hell bent on destroying one of their enemies through their territory? I'm not even saying they are directly leading them through. I'm saying they indirectly set them on the coalition... they have done similar things before. Such a war would prove beneficial to them in the long run.

Because... the Gargoyles are sub demon invaders..... they eat humans. They're Evil. Demons.... Evil giant lizard man demons....

You do not let an army.... of millions of giant evil demons that see you as a food source.. go though your territory.... because.... they're giant evil demons that see you as food... If you let them in, there's nothing stopping them from getting halfway though your turf and going "HA HA IDIOTS!! YOU BE DINER! MUAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAH FOOLISH MORTALS! SIC UM BOYS!!!" and turn on you and rip your kingdom apart, devour your people, catch you, bend you over a rail and have their way with you,, before popping off your head and feasting on your brain.

Why would they do this?

They're giant evil demons that see you as a food source. Remember the gargoyles don't have it out for the CS in specific. They're just another kingdom of man.

Like the FoM.

They could never trust the gargoyles not to back stab them. Ever. Why? because they're EVIL DEMONS. Backstabbing is a way of life. Just like you wouldn't let an axe murderer in your house, even if he said "I promise I'm only going to go though and kill your neighbor you don't like"... You don't trust army's of barbaric demons to do what they say they're going to do. If you do. You deserve the painful death that will very shortly befall you.

You also said its not realistic and comic book like... your dealing with a setting where magic and demons are a regular part of life, set thousands of years in the future in an apocalyptic realm, and you're telling me that I'm following comic book logic? The whole setting is based on similar logic, and similar situations have happened on smaller scales before in canon. I never said they'd be "allies." Only that in this case they have a common foe and the more established one will likely make it easier for the other in subtle ways.

I guess it'd depend on your game. In my game, nations don't act like idiots or fall for the "Over your shoulder" or "Your shoe lace is untied" Sort of sneaky ploys. If they do in your game that's fine. Have fun with it.

Yes it's a science fiction setting with magic and stuff, but that doesn't mean the good guys always win and the bad guys always pause to twirl their mustashes and tell you their plans. Not in my games.

Oh, and Triax is probably not going to be helping them... Trans-atlantic transports from what I read are expensive. Plus, they really aren't much of an ally, just a trade partner. The fact still stands that the CS just went through a major war and expended most of their resources... they would not win simply because they can't take a major invasion at the moment. Pooling their resources? They already did that during the Tolkien war. Where or who would they acquire these resources from? Maybe Quebec, but Quebec would have the upper hand in that dealing. So maybe they'd win if they signed their lives away to Quebec for support, but that's about it.

The original question was just the CS vs just the Gargoyles. It was other people that kept trying to draw people in on the side of the Gargoyles.. (( which has been shot down over and over again but people arn't reading the entire thread at this point)) Only when they insist on getting world war 8 going on are other factions mentioned to help out the CS.

But yes. If millions of Gargoyles dissapeared from Europe and appeared in the US, the NGR would help the CS the same way the CS is now helping the NGR. With equipment and money.

[Library Ogre]

I think the war would eventually go to the CS. While the Gargoyles have some advantages, there are a few things they can't match.

1) The CS's supply lines. The Gargoyles do not produce their own technical equipment, and have only a limited ability to maintain it. Their entire society is made up of people about as skilled as CS grunts. The CS, on the other hand, has entire groups dedicated to maintaining the gear of those who actually fight, and coming up with new gear to fight new forces.

2) The vulnerability of individual units. And, yeah, I'm putting this one as a debit on the gargoyles. While a squishy human is a lot more vulnerable than a gargoyle, human units aren't a single squishy human. They're a squad, or even a platoon or company of men in armor. Whereas the unit for gargoyles is, as best we can tell, a single gargoyle; maybe a pack of 4-5. And both Gargoyles and Gurgoyles are horribly vulnerable, especially gargoyles. Sure, they're tough; fully healed, they have as much MDC as a young dragon. However, they're big (gargoyles are about three times the size of a human), they cannot turn invisible or teleport, and they heal relatively slowly. If you half-kill a dragon, it teleports away, and comes back in an hour with 120-480 of its MDC healed. If you half-kill a gargoyle, it tries to run away, gets several more missiles up its posterior... and comes back in an hour with 4-24 MDC back. If you half-kill a human's armor, it comes back in an hour with all new armor. And weapons. And friends. Sure, the human is in bad shape, but its armor is fresh, and its friends are pissed.
Gurgoyles are only slightly better. Their smaller size means they can hide better and use a wider variety of weapons, and their lack of wings gives them more options for armor. But they're still going to ultimately fall because of point 1.

3) Uniting factors. The Xiticix have the CS working, unofficially, with Lazlo. Both recognize a threat and are complementing each others efforts. In the south, the CS will work with other natives to get rid of vampires who stray north. If a large, hostile, force of gargoyles started attacking the CS from the Ozarks (the only Gargoyle-friendly habitat near most of the CS), then Whykin and Kingsdale are both going to say "We're going to help the CS in order to save our lives." Other human and D-bee communities who don't want to be under a gargoyle suzerain are going to throw in, as well... not from a love of the CS, but because gargoyle neighbors are worse than CS neighbors. With the CS, human communities can reason, mostly human communities can hide their non-human members, and fully D-bee communities can move... and usually won't be molested. Gargoyles, however, will eat your ass. They'll eat your goat. They'll eat your kids. And they'll eat you.

[Library Ogre]

Ignoring the nukes if gargoyles were to attack the CS food and material sources aren't they vulnerable. I know tolkeen couldn't do this because of numbers? Mega cities require food sources within and without I see kingdom heaven scenario Saladin at Jerusalem with heavy weapons. does this seem a workable battle tactic the gargoyles could employ?
By the way what do gargoyles eat? people minerals any clue?

My bet is that the CS has food supplies laid in at the fortress cities for a few weeks of short rations, at least for military and government personnel; not real comforting to eat while your people starve, but the CS would be set for it. Long-term, I don't really see the gargoyles being able to hold territory against the CS. They can make it hell for the CS to hold territory, but they can't resist the CS's numbers or technological superiority.

For food, I see gargoyles as being fairly omnivorous, but largely supported by ambient PPE (since they are sub-demons). They like meat, and they need to eat, but they largely survive off the magic-ness of the world.

[dark brandon]

My bet is that the CS has food supplies laid in at the fortress cities for a few weeks of short rations, at least for military and government personnel; not real comforting to eat while your people starve, but the CS would be set for it. Long-term, I don't really see the gargoyles being able to hold territory against the CS. They can make it hell for the CS to hold territory, but they can't resist the CS's numbers or technological superiority.

For food, I see gargoyles as being fairly omnivorous, but largely supported by ambient PPE (since they are sub-demons). They like meat, and they need to eat, but they largely survive off the magic-ness of the world.

Not that this is canon, but more of a thought: With the recent advent of meat grown in a petri dish, and expanding upon that with the knowledge the CS has over bio-engineering, would it be out of the question to suggest that their emergency stores are just unactivated 'meat' cells. In this situation, I don't see these as being activated all the time (most food is from iowa and lone star I believe) but they have emergency stores that they can activate just in case, which would mean people in Chi-town wouldn't really starve, but they wouldn't be eating as much as they are use too.

[Tensu]

Not adding anything for either side .. a strickly AS IS scenario .. just instead of being located in Europe the Garg empire is sitting on the Coalitions doorstep of Chi-Town .

No conscription ..
No new Tech to either they get what they have ...
The Brodkil empire which has roughly 11+million Brodkil alone are supposed to be a fraction of what the Garg empire is sizewise .. so that gives us a template to go with for overall numbers ..

Armies against Armies ..

No nukes , no teleporting into chi-town for thier magic users ..

Flat out and out war ..

As is for each ..

Who wins ..

The one thing that really keeps poping out at me is AS IS and the No new tech.

One of the big things I see giving the NGR an advantage that as far as I have seen anywhere is that intresting little top secret anti super natural/bio regeneration "weapon" the U-round. Now maybe it isn't that big of a deal and maybe the CS does have it I have not seen any book stating they do on the contrary I have seen in my copy of the GM guide it says they are top secret and won't be shared with the CS until the alliance is signed and even then may hold back.

Also while I can't say I know to much on this matter I remember someone saying something about a gargoyle unit only consisting of one!!! Where does that come from everything I read suggest they are "social/pack-like" creatures who tend to work in teams. Small teams maybe but I'm not thinking in a war they are going to just change that and start working alone. Also to the best of my understanding the Gargoyle Empire is sort of a black sheep when it comes to gargoyle life styles by working in a LARGE group and by being more accepting other monster races.

Just between the two armies I think it would be the Gargoyles victory however the scenario described does seem to give the Coalition an advantage over the gargoyles in the form of allies and enemies as well as terrain but then again I'm unsure of the federation of magic would they help or would they sit back and watch only to swoop in at the last minute in a play that only works to their advantage.

[glitterboy2098]

My bet is that the CS has food supplies laid in at the fortress cities for a few weeks of short rations, at least for military and government personnel; not real comforting to eat while your people starve, but the CS would be set for it. Long-term, I don't really see the gargoyles being able to hold territory against the CS. They can make it hell for the CS to hold territory, but they can't resist the CS's numbers or technological superiority.

For food, I see gargoyles as being fairly omnivorous, but largely supported by ambient PPE (since they are sub-demons). They like meat, and they need to eat, but they largely survive off the magic-ness of the world.

Not that this is canon, but more of a thought: With the recent advent of meat grown in a petri dish, and expanding upon that with the knowledge the CS has over bio-engineering, would it be out of the question to suggest that their emergency stores are just unactivated 'meat' cells. In this situation, I don't see these as being activated all the time (most food is from iowa and lone star I believe) but they have emergency stores that they can activate just in case, which would mean people in Chi-town wouldn't really starve, but they wouldn't be eating as much as they are use too.

"unactivated?" not sure how you'd do that. but the idea isn't bad. one of the ideas i had for chaos earth were "food factories", which would clone generic meat tissue for protein and process waste material, break it down chemically, and recombine it into carbs, sugars, ect... producing a small wafer or cake worth a full meals worth of nutrition. nasty tasting, horrible texture...but you could live off it.

you'd still need to add raw material every so often to eliminate mass loss in the processes, but that would mainly be a case of dumping extra trash, dead bodies, ect into the synthesiser...

the idea was that many of the surviving groups of humnaity in CE had access to one of these machines, which allowed them to survive with the loss of farms and such. after all, most of human civilization is only a few days from starvation if foodstuffs stop coming in..


in regards to U-rounds, the CS is aware of them (the NGR told them), they just chose to not use them, due to contamination dangers. if the CS had to resort to them to survive, they certainly would.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

once again is someone else to the save the attackers of the coalition

[Avatara]

Here is a way the gargoyles could stop the nukes. Magic. They could do something like Tolkeen if you like.

How the CS could stop the Gargoyles from teleporting nukes into the city. By not handing out pictures of the insides of the city to the monsters. Also by not allowing the monsters into the city it's self. Remember teleporting is hard. As for the teleporting over top of the city. It says in the books that Chi town can survive a nuke hitting it.

But let us say for gaming purposes one that could be used as a HLS if you wished is that Said Gargoyle group has a nuke they intend to teleport into Chi town. The spell required to do that if memory serves cost 600ppe. and has to be within 500miles of target( again if memory serves)
so the Gargoyles would have to avoid CS patrols and get close enough to teleport into near the city.

The cs has patrols around the fortress cities they might run into the gargoyles during the ritual to teleport the nuke or they may run into them as they transport it.

But the CS territory is large what are the odds of them finding the Gargoyles, or even knowing of them infiltrating the CS?
There are three things that would most likely happen. Telepaths would probably get a vision of horrible death coming from the gargoyles. This would not pin point them, but would put the CS on alert.
2 A third party might be a bit concerned with a group of gargoyles moving through their territory with a nuke and try to stop them. (Be it archie lazlo or unknowns )
3 Lord Splynn. Let us say he actually gives them the nukes to 'see' if it can be done. Would it not be a heck of a lot more interesting if the CS found out about the attacks before hand? Imagine the betting that could be done then. Will the Gargoyles be able to take out the CS with their daring plan or will the CS be able to stop them? (personally I don't see him giving them nukes though) **forgot to add this part Lord Splynn would probably leak the info that the Gargoyles had nukes and were going to use them on The CS**

As for an all out fight. Sense most of the Gargoyles would not be in armour and using high tech toys (at least the first waves) the CS should be able to gun them down in droves. Face it tech vs magic and supernatural has a advantage in having longer range,generally do more damage, and the power armour and vehicles are for the most part significantly faster than the mystical counter parts.
Once the Empire brings in its tech wielding troops it would be a close one. The advantage of range weaponry would diminish for the CS. So it would depend on how much damage the cannon fodder troops did before hand, the experience the Gargoyles have with their tech weaponry vs the CS solders. And the # they brought with them for the fight.

I'd go with the CS fighting them off in the end But with terribly high casualties. And Much land lost, and significant damage to the Fortress cities. Probably with one or two being destroyed.

[Avatara]

woops. Forgot to wright the part where I meant that if Splynn actually did give nukes that he would secretly leak the info to the coalition threw a 3rd party to make it even more interesting. Alas I was thinking it in my head and figured that I *must* have put it down but did not A well thats what the edit button is for

[Dog_O_War]

I haven't posted in months, and this thread is still alive? So..... very..... foolish.....

I read some of the later arguements; they have already been said. Gargoyles are not teleporting in any nukes. Period. If they could, then someone else would've back during Tolkeen. But they didn't, and they had better magicians. Secondly, the gargoyles aren't going to get any advanced tech. Period. If they could've, they would've used it against the NGR. Or teleported nukes in against them. But they didn't. Because they can't. Why can't they? I dunno - ask KS.

The CS does have and would use nukes if the situation called for it. How do I know? I'm human; I would. I would expect that others would too. I would expect that any war that brought extinction to the doorstep of my home would result in the use of scorched earth. I would poison my own water supply if it meant killing the enemy before they killed me, even if I too would die (eventually). This is why the CS can and would use nukes.

Take nukes out of the equation and I posit that anytime an enemy is placed in a location for immediate threat of an early strike (like the original "the gargoyles are on your doorstep!" scenario) and you can't use your best weapon - then sure, the CS will lose. It's a dumb and slanted scenario. A few posts back, this very idea was mocked for this very reason; because it's skewed in such a way as to force an "I agree with the OP!" answer. That's also intellectual dishonesty on the part of the creator.

Fact of the matter is that a "fair" scenario would be to have both sides aware of the impending war, but have the gargoyles located in Europe (still). They have to make their way over here. As a helping hand, the NGR is say, wiped off the map by a meteor or something so the gargoyles don't need to fight them. Either way, in any case of a fair scenario based off of Rifts, the gargoyles will lose.

Why? Location. Technology. Intelligence (both the skill and the "stat"). The gargoyles have none of these; the CS has all of them. Individually, the gargoyle is quite the formidible opponent - this is a fact. The average CS grunt has virtually no hope of defeating one. And the gargoyles themselves out-number the CS army.

BUT the CS has the technology to turn any fight to their advantage. They can always see the enemys' attack-force numbers. They have the weaponry to take out any single attack force the gargoyles can muster, and they will always have the speed advantage as far as their army is concerned. They don't need to split up troops as much as the gargoyles would because they have the ability to transport their forces in bulk quicker than any sizeable force the gargoyles can muster (with the exception of a mass invasion on the Garg's part, but such a tactic is foolish beyond comprehension. Literally putting all their eggs into one basket, and then giving that basket to a child wearing red to march through a forest full of wolves unawares. Except that there is no lumberjack wandering around to save this child and her eggs).

Besides all this; supplies are an issue more-so for the gargoyles than the CS. The CS has such things as storage and stockpiles. The gargoyles don't. They are much larger than a man, and they number more than the CS. This means that you have more troops to feed, and they eat alot more than the average CS troop.

Finally, the gargoyles have no allies worth noting. A bunch of demons 3000 miles away are not worth noting. They have a "home guard" sure, but if the battle is being brought to the gargoyles' own home-ground, then the battle was lost to begin with. The demonic allies of these gargs are near-impossible to bring over in any notable number.

Meanwhile by virtue of location, the CS has many "allies". Frankly speaking, even a racist won't tolerate open warfare against people he hates if it's occuring on his street. If you don't believe me, watch the news about 20-30 years ago when the Solviets were invading Afganistan. The Afganies are certainly no friend of America, but they took their help because of the alternative they faced. I may have dates wrong, but I believe the idea is effectively conveyed.

Finally, like every war, each side evolves after the last conflict. The CS fought a ground war against Tolkeen. This was a bad idea. They will no doubt learn from this. I mean, we did. Look at WWI; trench warfare with minimal vehicles and aircraft. Then skip a couple of decades and you arrive at WWII; some trench warfare, but you'll note that people were dug-in to fox-holes, and otherwise attempted to remain either mobile, or static in places such as bunkers, pillboxes, and buildings. This was brought about because tanks were all too capable of simply crossing trenches with troops behind them (look at the churchhill tank design and you'll see why). We did still use trenches, but they were less effective. Then jump on over to Korea a decade later. Trenches were beat by guerillas and tunnels. So no more trenches; mobility became the prized tool. Jets, amphibious APC's and tanks see use, but not until the lession was learned in Vietnam. See, the pattern here is that a mistake is made, then learned from. The CS won't bother to engage in a ground-war against a flying opponent that actually out-numbers them; only a fool of a strategist would state otherwise.

The CS's style of warfare will evolve, and it will evolve to deal with such an enemy. Even without nukes, you're looking at strategic assaults now to remove percieved leadership (causing dissary in the ranks of the gargs), and speedy harrassment of large numbers. That is, any "camp" the gargoyles set up can and will be struck at by the long arms of the CS; the CS has super-sonic bombers that can carry payloads of incredible power that the gargoyles can't touch. Meanwhile the gargoyle must face starvation, constant assault, lack of worth-while intel, and no allies. They are fighting the CS on the CS's terms (in a fair match-up anyways), and they can't win with any credible arguement I've seen put forth.

I mean really, so far it's been "well the Gargs get a magical foot-hold on NA, no NGR to deal with, numerous smart spell-casters, links to the black-market where they got an infinite credit line with Naruni, and no supply problems despite them being exponentially larger consumers. And the CS can't use nukes!"

Does that actually sound fair?

Or does it seem a bit odd that one side must go to such lengths before they would even consider a possible victory for the gargoyles?

You decide.

[Cybermancer]

A very good and persuasive argument, Dog_O_War.

If I wasn't already convinced of the fallacy of the OP's scenerio, this certainly would have convinced me.

[Avatara]

did not the cs use nukes on Tolkeen? But they were swallowed by the rifts? Also on the cs nuke thing I thought that in one of the books it mentioned that the cs has weaker nukes that lack the fallout. Can't recall which one it is in (or if it is in a book at all )

[Dog_O_War]

Secondly, the gargoyles aren't going to get any advanced tech. Period. If they could've, they would've used it against the NGR.

They already have advanced tech. 60 foot tall robots that shoot lasers and missiles seems pretty advanced to me.

See, we could say the same thing about the Afganies too. "Wow, they got stinger missiles!"
No, they have some advanced tools, but they do not actually have any advanced tech. I mean, what happens when the suit gets damaged? Do gargoyle-shops and garages repair these? Or are we looking at them having little to no ability to repair their "tech"? I believe it's much closer to the latter.

They can always see the enemys' attack-force numbers.

How? They don't have satellites. They have to use World War 2 era communication, control and scouting tactics and put eyes in the sky/boots on the ground. Many times we missed Germany/Japan's troop/air movements because there is always gaps or things missed. All the things we take for granted in our modern society due to satellites, the Coalition has to deal with. Limited communications, no spy satellites, limited troop coordination and no GPS. That GPS is a huge one, Coalition soldiers can easily get lost, planes can get lost, Skelebots can get lost, precision indirect missile fire is a lot harder(i.e no JDAMS). Even so called 'Smart' missiles will still have to make a Navigation roll same as a pilot or get lost simply because there is no GPS to tell it 'you are here'. They have to have a series of ground based or plane based early warning nets and those can get taken out. Sooo much of what our high tech war machine today does relies on satellites.

Dude, it's an army. Of millions. That don't generally walk anywhere but rather blacken the sky with their numbers. A 12 year-old kid who spent a year in cub-scouts could "track" them. Now add to this CS rangers with radios, long-range viewing capabilities, as well as radar that has hundreds of miles of range (and yes, 15-foot tall flying humanoids will register on said radar); can you honestly say that these non-natives are going to "blend in, and disappear"? Maybe as well Marcus Brody did in the Last Crusade.

Besides all this; supplies are an issue more-so for the gargoyles than the CS. The CS has such things as storage and stockpiles. The gargoyles don't. They are much larger than a man, and they number more than the CS. This means that you have more troops to feed, and they eat alot more than the average CS troop.

America is a huge place and there are lots of things they can eat. They didn't have this problem in relatively small area around Germany so I don't see them having food issues in America.

Yeah, but back in germany they also had the minor semblance of an economy going on too. Yet now they lack their slaves and stock-piles and must hunt and gather supplies for millions in a foriegn and hostile territory.

Finally, the gargoyles have no allies worth noting. A bunch of demons 3000 miles away are not worth noting. They have a "home guard" sure, but if the battle is being brought to the gargoyles' own home-ground, then the battle was lost to begin with. The demonic allies of these gargs are near-impossible to bring over in any notable number.

If you don't believe me, watch the news about 20-30 years ago when the Solviets were invading Afganistan. The Afganies are certainly no friend of America, but they took their help because of the alternative they faced.

They can make allies here, plenty of evil bandits/monsters even other gargoyles/brodkil in America. The Federation of Magic may ally with them, they have an obsessive hatred of the Coalition. Or the Calgary Monster Empire, even Vampires could strike a deal for all the south west in exchange for their help. Many of the guerrillas and angry refugees from Tolkeen might join in for some revenge. These factions may not be friends but like your example of Afghanistan and America VS the Soviets, the 'enemy of my enemy...'. Not to mention the Xiticix are not going to stop their spread just because the Coalition is at war so they still have to devote troops to halting them and other areas problem like the demon gate or Pecos Empire.

Well for one, Lazlo and company aren't going to like millions of hungry gargoyles chowing down on the empire of man. After all, they are their biggest silent trading partner. I mean really - where do you think all the black-market goods go? Outside the empire of man? No; see out there they just call them "goods". Sans the "black market" and all that.

Next, you've got the Federation of Magic with their "deep" hatred of the CS. Oh wait - the fed-o-magic actually has humans dedicated to the protection of the CS. I'm betting that at the very best (for the Gargoyles) they won't interfere. Then there's Merctown; a place that literally suvives on the success of the dominion of man and doesn't really bite into the whole "slave-trade" thing (for the most part). Besides this, with the CS's apparently infinite line of creds they can afford to hire all the mercs anyways. Then we have the "evil bandits" you speak of. You're going to get as many fighting the gargoyles as you will the CS. Except that the CS knows how to deal with the "evil bandits" of NA, while the gargoyles don't.

Finally, you're reaching for the outer-rim allies here. I mean what intel do the gargs have that would give them any indication that the pecos empire, the Calgary demons, or any other smaller factions actually exist way across the ocean? I'm betting it's none.

Finally, like every war, each side evolves after the last conflict.

The CS's style of warfare will evolve, and it will evolve to deal with such an enemy.

Yet you don't give the Gargoyles the same credit. Tolkeen became quite good at fighting the Coalition and they actually won and pushed the Coalition back. Then Tolkeen foolishly stood down their armies, were caught with their pants down and sucker punched by the Coalition's new offensive once the Coalition ended their war with Quebec and had fresh troops to send in. The Gargoyles have been fighting the NGR for years, it's foolish to think they have learned nothing of tactics when dealing with high tech armies. If they can learn to use power armor, robots and other high tech gadgets(and use them in successive tactics to ambush and beat the NGR's forces) then they can evolve/learn new tactics in general.

First you talk about how I don't give the gargoyles "the same credit", then you talk about how tolkeen (a seperate, distant and technologically advanced society) were beating the CS right before they lost. What do they have to do with each-other? In this case, the gargoyles are the losing force here (against the NGR), but they for the purposes of this "comparison" are given an auto-defeat of the NGR. The CS had no such auto-defeat; they had a real defeat of their enemy. That defeat was because the enemy was foolish. The CS can now effectively learn from their mistakes. The gargoyles though? "Gee, I hope another act of god defeats our enemies again - cause we don't take away any noteable lession from our previous conflict".

The CS won't bother to engage in a ground-war against a flying opponent that actually out-numbers them; only a fool of a strategist would state otherwise.

The gurgoyles cannot fly and outnumber the gargoyles so if you were leading the Coalition your strategy of focusing on the air would leave both forces pinned in the sky while the gurgoyles ran underneath them and effectively outflank the Coalition to strike deep into their territory destroying bases, supply lines and landing fields.

Again; how did these non-fliers get here?
More pointedly; how do they supposedly keep up with the flying forces of gargs, or even know where these CS bases and stockhouses even are?

Oh yeah, they aren't here, and even if they were they don't really know where the CS keeps it's stockpiles or bases.

the CS has super-sonic bombers that can carry payloads of incredible power that the gargoyles can't touch

Tolkeen could touch them. Could not air warlocks summon invisible air elementals to go watch out for and deal with these high flying bombers? It's not like the Coalition has thousands of these bombers. They are expensive and probably difficult to produce much like our B2.

Coincedentally, Tolkeen got defeated. And they (as previously stated) had better magicians the the gargs do. You're talking about sending lesser and less numerous casters to deal with a problem that they cannot effectively see nor predict.

And the CS can't use nukes!"

Does that actually sound fair?

Fine let the CS use nukes. Gargoyles in the area die, CS kills itself(quickly or slowly nukes on their own soil will kill them), gargoyles/FoM/monsters/naruni/Atlantis or whoever else outside the blast zones/fallout area move in after awhile. YAY CS!...oh wait a minute...

Well let me put it to you this way;

Did the gargoyles win?

Nope.

Arguement over.

[Avatara]

Well to the how did the non-flyer's get here I would assume that it would be via rift/magic.

I do fully agree with you on the Gargoyles being unable to repair their tech toys. Which would definitely give the cs the advantage. I also agree with the fact that most of the powers in NA would be loath to allow the Gargoyles to set up shop in their neighborhoods and would likely work with (or at least avoid conflict with the cs) during the crisis.

But to say it would be completely one sided is a little unfair do to the fact that the Gargoyle empire and the NGR are at a stalemate in the books. (The NGR being comparable to the CS in strength)

I do see the CS winning in the end but with heavy losses.

[Dog_O_War]

Well to the how did the non-flyer's get here I would assume that it would be via rift/magic.

I do fully agree with you on the Gargoyles being unable to repair their tech toys. Which would definitely give the cs the advantage. I also agree with the fact that most of the powers in NA would be loath to allow the Gargoyles to set up shop in their neighborhoods and would likely work with (or at least avoid conflict with the cs) during the crisis.

But to say it would be completely one sided is a little unfair do to the fact that the Gargoyle empire and the NGR are at a stalemate in the books. (The NGR being comparable to the CS in strength)

I do see the CS winning in the end but with heavy losses.

Well for one, the NGR does not have the advantages of mobility nor being a distant defender - like the CS do. For two, the Gargoyles (against the NGR) can use ground troops because they live next door; this is quite literally the bulk of their forces. Meanwhile it's been mentioned that the Gargs and NGR are not actually in a stalemate; each day the NGR gains advantage over the gargoyles.

[Library Ogre]

How? They don't have satellites. They have to use World War 2 era communication, control and scouting tactics and put eyes in the sky/boots on the ground. Many times we missed Germany/Japan's troop/air movements because there is always gaps or things missed. All the things we take for granted in our modern society due to satellites, the Coalition has to deal with. Limited communications, no spy satellites, limited troop coordination and no GPS. That GPS is a huge one, Coalition soldiers can easily get lost, planes can get lost, Skelebots can get lost, precision indirect missile fire is a lot harder(i.e no JDAMS). Even so called 'Smart' missiles will still have to make a Navigation roll same as a pilot or get lost simply because there is no GPS to tell it 'you are here'. They have to have a series of ground based or plane based early warning nets and those can get taken out. Sooo much of what our high tech war machine today does relies on satellites.

While canon doesn't give it to them, the CS could pretty easily have a ground-based GPS analog. Assuming each settlement was constantly broadcasting a simple code, it wouldn't take much of a computer to say "I got this code x seconds after it was released, that code y seconds after it was released, and this other code z seconds after it was released, meaning I must be at position A." Assuming they have digital communications (which there is no reason they should not; once that genie is out of the bottle, there's no reason to go back, especially with CS's level of tech), booster sets in various vehicles and settlements also give them a lot of range.

The ground-based GPS is a technology they don't explicitly have, but that is fairly easy to do with their technology, especially within their own territory; even if that technology is only in officer armor, you wind up with a lot fewer lost units. Digital radio boosting is almost a necessity at their size and level of technology.

[Library Ogre]

While canon doesn't give it to them, the CS could pretty easily have a ground-based GPS analog. Assuming each settlement was constantly broadcasting a simple code, it wouldn't take much of a computer to say "I got this code x seconds after it was released, that code y seconds after it was released, and this other code z seconds after it was released, meaning I must be at position A." Assuming they have digital communications (which there is no reason they should not; once that genie is out of the bottle, there's no reason to go back, especially with CS's level of tech), booster sets in various vehicles and settlements also give them a lot of range.

Nice way to say, i,m here please shot me

The thing is, most of these stations are going to be pretty visibile anyway, and you can limit to those that defend themselves. Stick a transmitter on ChiTown, another on New Chillicothe, and a third on Iron Heart. Most of the CS Heartland is now covered with digital radio pulses that will allow folks to determine their position. If every Death's Head in the area is likewise broadcasting a signal (modified to chow its changing location, which it computes off the static transponders that it can find), then you've expanded your range.

[Avatara]

I'd presume for stealth missions that they would turn off their broadcasting system on the death head transport.

[Dog_O_War]

I'd presume for stealth missions that they would turn off their broadcasting system on the death head transport.

Why bother? Erin Tarn and a 1/2-dozen other humans walked right through their territory, literally under a tree where more than a dozen were sleeping, and not one of them even detected them. So in the meanwhile the CS is using secret and restricted channels to communicate - I'm betting that the gargs aren't going to notice this either.

,
Dude, it's an army. Of millions. That don't generally walk anywhere but rather blacken the sky with their numbers. A 12 year-old kid who spent a year in cub-scouts could "track" them. Now add to this CS rangers with radios, long-range viewing capabilities, as well as radar that has hundreds of miles of range (and yes, 15-foot tall flying humanoids will register on said radar); can you honestly say that these non-natives are going to "blend in, and disappear"? Maybe as well Marcus Brody did in the Last Crusade.
,.

Then explain me please, how has tne NGR somuch problems with the Gargoyles if they act so stupid, which Divination the CS Rangers use to be there knowing where the G argoyle Air wing flys..

Read the above - that's how. A single troop or unit capable of actual stealth will have no problem. As for the NGR - they're dumb (strategically speaking). Why are they dumb? Well (and not to defame the writers or anything, but) the NGR is sending too few troops against too poor target(s). That is, a single infiltrator attempts to kill the king; that's stupid, especially sinse he was a suicide-trooper without a bomb. Now, that may have been just a story but think about it; if that's how they're "doing it" in tales, then my God they must be incompetent. There's no deviousness - no human ingenuity there. Atleast the Coalition knows not to look a gift-horse in the mouth (or whatever the saying is).

See, we could say the same thing about the Afganies too. "Wow, they got stinger missiles!"No, they have some advanced tools, but they do not actually have any advanced tech. I mean, what happens when the suit gets damaged? Do gargoyle-shops and garages repair these? Or are we looking at them having little to no ability to repair their "tech"? I believe it's much closer to the latter.

Or they could be paying for 'technical advisers' to fix their stuff. After all we Americans have been selling high tech equipment to low tech countries for decades and we do the 'technical adviser' thing to maintain and repair their tech too. I am sure future Rifts nations can figure out this lucrative business practice as well.

And are they listed as doing this? Or are they simply running back to the Angel of Death when crap breaks? I'ma bet on the latter.

Dude, it's an army. Of millions. That don't generally walk anywhere but rather blacken the sky with their numbers. A 12 year-old kid who spent a year in cub-scouts could "track" them. Now add to this CS rangers with radios, long-range viewing capabilities, as well as radar that has hundreds of miles of range (and yes, 15-foot tall flying humanoids will register on said radar); can you honestly say that these non-natives are going to "blend in, and disappear"? Maybe as well Marcus Brody did in the Last Crusade.

So Germany and Japan had armies of millions too. The area of land is so huge even whole armies can get lost. Besides you still keep making the gargoyles act about as stupid as they could possibly act. If they survived and kept the NGR(a country more advanced than the coalition) on the ropes for this long, I think they are not as stupid as you make them out to be. Also they can fly below the radar, they would not have a stall speed like a jet. A gargoyle frying at treetop level, literally brushing the treetops, would be very hard to pick out among the ground clutter.

Germany and Japan weren't exactly invading the most technologically advanced nations at the time though. Also that's some pretty amazing flight-trick going on there; too bad that doesn't leave out arial surveilance, but instead enables it with great ease. Also, the only reason they've had the NGR "on the ropes" for so long is because the NGR wasn't always the technological juggernaut it is today. coincedentally, the gargoyles have had little to no technologial advancement - something that historically ruins a civilization (the longbow; the catapult; the rifle; the cannon; the plane; the tank; etc...).

Yeah, but back in germany they also had the minor semblance of an economy going on too. Yet now they lack their slaves and stock-piles and must hunt and gather supplies for millions in a foriegn and hostile territory.

Or they are smart and set up new supply and utilize the rich slave stock in the lands outside Coalition territory to get a 'beach head' in NA.

Or not. "Hey guys, we're invading a nation, but lets set up an economy with the natives we're invading! We'll just tell them that we're here only to duke it out with the CS; our diplomats'll convince 'em with that. They'll forget our invasion-level numbers instantly!" Yeah, that's gonna work real well.

Well for one, Lazlo and company aren't going to like millions of hungry gargoyles chowing down on the empire of man. After all, they are their biggest silent trading partner. I mean really - where do you think all the black-market goods go? Outside the empire of man? No; see out there they just call them "goods". Sans the "black market" and all that.

Next, you've got the Federation of Magic with their "deep" hatred of the CS. Oh wait - the fed-o-magic actually has humans dedicated to the protection of the CS. I'm betting that at the very best (for the Gargoyles) they won't interfere. Then there's Merctown; a place that literally suvives on the success of the dominion of man and doesn't really bite into the whole "slave-trade" thing (for the most part). Besides this, with the CS's apparently infinite line of creds they can afford to hire all the mercs anyways. Then we have the "evil bandits" you speak of. You're going to get as many fighting the gargoyles as you will the CS. Except that the CS knows how to deal with the "evil bandits" of NA, while the gargoyles don't.

Finally, you're reaching for the outer-rim allies here. I mean what intel do the gargs have that would give them any indication that the pecos empire, the Calgary demons, or any other smaller factions actually exist way across the ocean? I'm betting it's none.

Lazlo may or may not stay out of the war. They stayed out of Tolkeen and that was a sister nation in trouble. Lazlo's best bet though would be to make a very public offer to help the Coalition which they know the Coalition will refuse then sit back and let the Gargs and Dead Boys beat each other senseless while Lazlo secretly helps human and d-bee refugees leave the war areas. That safeguards their nation from war and a future threat in the Coalition who will most likely win in their eyes but won't be in any shape to expand or harm Lazlo for decades.

They won't stay out of the war; as I stated previously the CS is their biggest consumer. Maybe you like losing your customers/business to conflict, but I'll bet on the majority of people out there don't - even if they do hate the person they sell to.

Gargs can buy mercs same as the Coalition and Atlantis has a huge market for inter dimensional Mercs that makes Merctown look like a convenience store next to the Mall of America.

Wrong; the gargs can attempt to buy mercs. See, unlike the supposed "Mall of America" Atlantis is a den of scary friggin' gangsters who would rather just rob and kill anyone attempting to buy as much "merc"handise as the the gargs would need to in order to have any noteable amount of force added. See, the mercs of merctown consist of armies - which is what the gargoyles are going to need if they want to compare and compete. Far as I know, Gargoyles aren't really the "major-players" you're making them out to be in Atlantis; more like a disorganized street-gang.

Once again you are making the gargoyles be the dumbest kids on the block incapable of any strategy whatsoever. There is probably spies already in NA working for the Gargs. There are after all many thousands of gargoyles/gurgoyles already in NA in various towns and even their own little kingdoms. Tolkeen had several thousand at least. Not to mention Atlantis is a place where you can buy anything including information and spies.

With all their magic and "superior tactics" they let a human in a gargoyle-suit take a pot-shot at their lord. Seems pretty dumb to me. As for what tolkeen had, it sure did them a whole heap of good - those gargoyle stratagists that is.

First you talk about how I don't give the gargoyles "the same credit", then you talk about how tolkeen (a seperate, distant and technologically advanced society) were beating the CS right before they lost. What do they have to do with each-other? In this case, the gargoyles are the losing force here (against the NGR), but they for the purposes of this "comparison" are given an auto-defeat of the NGR. The CS had no such auto-defeat; they had a real defeat of their enemy. That defeat was because the enemy was foolish. The CS can now effectively learn from their mistakes. The gargoyles though? "Gee, I hope another act of god defeats our enemies again - cause we don't take away any noteable lession from our previous conflict".

I'm not exactly sure what you are talking about. My NGR book is in storage but I don't ever remember reading that the garg's were losing to the NGR. I seemed to recall that it was at a stalemate but the garg's were suddenly coming into new technology that was causing the war to swing in their favor and scaring the heck out of the NGR. I could be wrong though. As to that last part about act of god or whatever, that is the lamest debate reasoning I have ever seen. The CS did not 'really' defeat Tolkeen because this is a 'make believe' game world. So if people 'make believe' that the Gargs defeated the NGR then it carries as much weight as the CS's 'make believe' defeat of Tolkeen. Seriously you might want to step away from the game table if you can't see how absurd your statement was LOL.

All you did here was attempt to "discredit" what was written in the games' canon by stating that the CS "didn't really defeat tolkeen because it's fictional." That's a total failure to debate on your part because that is exactly what we're talking about - how one fictional nation could combat and defeat another.
Perhaps you are the one who needs to step away?

Again; how did these non-fliers get here?
More pointedly; how do they supposedly keep up with the flying forces of gargs, or even know where these CS bases and stockhouses even are?

Oh yeah, they aren't here, and even if they were they don't really know where the CS keeps it's stockpiles or bases.

The gargoyles would not have lasted 6 months against the NGR the way you have them behaving. There is no reason to suggest that the garg's can't have scouts/spies same as us. And I assume they would use reasonable tactics like not having their air power so far out pace their ground forces that they become separated forces that are easy to destroy. Again if they behaved this way the war between the Gargs and NGR would not have lasted so many years.

You're talking about having a group of luddites gaining good intel in a nation more than 10 times the size as the NGR in a matter of weeks/months that the gargoyles are putting to use to shut down this opponent. They couldn't do this with 80 years of intel against their next-door neighbor - how the hell are they supposed to act then?

Coincedentally, Tolkeen got defeated. And they (as previously stated) had better magicians the the gargs do. You're talking about sending lesser and less numerous casters to deal with a problem that they cannot effectively see nor predict.

A) Tolkeen actually won the war originally. It was their own stupidity and complacency and the fact that Quebec and Coalition made peace, freeing up whole divisions of troops, that lost Tolkeen the war in the end. B) Unless you have some numbers to back it up I don't know why the gargs have less mages than Tolkeen. C) there is already text (in the dimensional market Slave book) that the gargoyles buy the services of or enslave psychics and mages for their war effort, so that's another resource at their disposal.

A) It's not over 'til it's over. They didn't "win" anything - they made the final fatal flaw of giving quarter. That is what I call 'losing the war to your own ego'.
B) Hmm; a magical nation of creatures that were reknowned and feared for their armies of casters versus the odd gargoyle warlock. The numbers are in the CS war campaign-books.
C) Yes, but not on any level the CS won't already be used to dealing with.

Did the gargoyles win?

Nope.

Arguement over.

If there are any gargoyles left in NA then yes they won. Even if all the NA gargs died the Empire would live on because there are likely to be a few hundred thousand gargs back in Germany (remember they defeated the NGR, you said so )managing their holdings and keeping the beaten German people as breeding slave stock. So yeah if the CS goes nuke happy the Gargs win.

Oh and I would guess all the gargs/gurgs came over via rifts or maybe via the corrupted millennium tree. I doubt they would fly millions that far.

This is a futile statement made to lessen the consession you made earlier about the CS being able to use nukes. If the CS were able to use nukes, then you have your answer; gargoyle defeat.

[Avatara]

I can see Lazlo and the CS working together to face the common foe. They worked together to fight the mechanoids (mechanoid invasion, source book two I think) Of course it would have to be desperate for the CS to accept any help from them.

[dark brandon]

I can see Lazlo and the CS working together to face the common foe. They worked together to fight the mechanoids (mechanoid invasion, source book two I think) Of course it would have to be desperate for the CS to accept any help from them.

Didn't every psychic on the planet pretty much have visions that the mechanoids would be the end of all life on Earth?

Besides there is already a threat to both nations in the Xiticix and they haven't allied against them yet. If Lazlo stepped in it would probably be when the Coalition is completely on the ropes and on the verge of destruction.

They have an unspoken alliance as described in Xiticix. CS patrols leave Lazlo groups alone that are hunting xiticix and vice-versa.

[Greyaxe]

I often wonder how an "empire" like the gargoyles who cant even fix a flashlight can have an economy of any kind much less one that can afford a war machine. As written they are a ragtag group of supernatural menaces who are not organized or rich enough to seriously be a threat to either the NGR or the CS. I suspect that the Gargoyles are not "Buying" weapons and power armor but are being given weapons to make them a more significant threat to the NGR. The reason being while the NGR is fighting gargoyls they are not looking to other threats in their areas, like the Pheonix Empire or the Angel of Death/Mindworks. Therefor the thought of the Gargoyls buying nukes is mute.

CS wins hands down. Their entire economy/society/war machine is designed espresly for war, against any enemy. The propaganda machine just changes to intoduce a new threat and the populatios unites to crush that threat.

No nukes required.

[Avatara]

So the CS is a great threat to the Gargoyles and yet the NGR is not? Remember anything the CS has the NGR has the equivalent (well supposedly anyways ) Sense the NGR has a large army; which has been fighting supernatural enemy's for just as long as the CS, has to be unable to "hands down defeat them" I think the CS would not simply be able to walk all over them. Again I see them winning in the end just not with ease.

As for the Gargoyle economy they would be trading slaves and perhaps resources to the Phoenix empire. Just because they cant fix a flashlight does not mean that they can't haul ore, trees etc to the empire.

As for the Garg tech, think of the zentradi from Robotech. I'd play it like that. They were unable to repair their tech as well. Which would give the gargoyles a disadvantage. Of course Id play it with the tech gargs as a minority in the invasion do to this. Have the normal gargs (and slaves) attack in waves to soften up the enemy, and then send in the tech to finish them off. Once more I'd say the CS would win in the end. More tech, (obviously) home ground advantage, more organized. Plus on top of meeting them on the field, they would send in spec ops to sabotage the Gargoyles tech toys, free slaves etc. So they would win but at a heavy cost.

As for the Nuke em thing Unless the CS hit them on there way over from Europe. I think they would only use the Nukes as a last resort. Do to the fact that they have to live in the land after the war is over. (I see most of the fighting happening close to the CS territory in the situation of a CS gargoyle war.)

[Greyaxe]

So the CS is a great threat to the Gargoyles and yet the NGR is not? Remember anything the CS has the NGR has the equivalent (well supposedly anyways ) Sense the NGR has a large army; which has been fighting supernatural enemy's for just as long as the CS, has to be unable to "hands down defeat them" I think the CS would not simply be able to walk all over them. Again I see them winning in the end just not with ease.

As for the Gargoyle economy they would be trading slaves and perhaps resources to the Phoenix empire. Just because they cant fix a flashlight does not mean that they can't haul ore, trees etc to the empire.

As for the Garg tech, think of the zentradi from Robotech. I'd play it like that. They were unable to repair their tech as well. Which would give the gargoyles a disadvantage. Of course Id play it with the tech gargs as a minority in the invasion do to this. Have the normal gargs (and slaves) attack in waves to soften up the enemy, and then send in the tech to finish them off. Once more I'd say the CS would win in the end. More tech, (obviously) home ground advantage, more organized. Plus on top of meeting them on the field, they would send in spec ops to sabotage the Gargoyles tech toys, free slaves etc. So they would win but at a heavy cost.

As for the Nuke em thing Unless the CS hit them on there way over from Europe. I think they would only use the Nukes as a last resort. Do to the fact that they have to live in the land after the war is over. (I see most of the fighting happening close to the CS territory in the situation of a CS gargoyle war.)

CS is a greater threat because teh government will sacrifice its troops to win at any cost. The NGR is a "more civilized" nation who educates and protects its population. No sacrifice No victory.

[Avatara]

I can see them doing that. At least with the burb population.

[Greyaxe]

CS is a greater threat because teh government will sacrifice its troops to win at any cost. The NGR is a "more civilized" nation who educates and protects its population. No sacrifice No victory.

Wow I hope you are never my superior officer. I think the US has proven you can achieve wins without throwing your soldiers into a meat grinder. The meat grinder tactic has been mostly a losing one since the invention of the machine gun.

Besides the NGR is willing to play hardball with their gurgoyle borgs which is basically a suicide mission. So I doubt the NGR is that squeamish.

You forget the Coalition is modeled under Natzi Germany, not the US. And Hitler did sacrifice tens of thousands of troops out of simple pride, much less a strategic objective.


And the Gurgoyl-borgs are voulenteers.

[Dog_O_War]

Read the above - that's how. A single troop or unit capable of actual stealth will have no problem. As for the NGR - they're dumb (strategically speaking). Why are they dumb? Well (and not to defame the writers or anything, but) the NGR is sending too few troops against too poor target(s). That is, a single infiltrator attempts to kill the king; that's stupid, especially sinse he was a suicide-trooper without a bomb. Now, that may have been just a story but think about it; if that's how they're "doing it" in tales, then my God they must be incompetent. There's no deviousness - no human ingenuity there. Atleast the Coalition knows not to look a gift-horse in the mouth (or whatever the saying is).

We did the same sort of espionage to assassinate foreign leaders in many wars. Plus just because you only saw one 'suicide trooper' in the king's presense does not mean they only sent one. As far as I remember of the text they sent many, that just happened to be the first to get close enough to the gargoyle emperor.

You missed what I said; it was a suicide mission. There's no two ways about it. In our own history we don't need to worry about "blending in" after a laser shoots out from our hands. For one, we don't house lasers in our hands. For two, we all look the same (relatively) regardless of what suits we put on (well, a mascot outfit would look rather strange, but I'd bet they'd never suspect the guy wearing one).

And are they listed as doing this? Or are they simply running back to the Angel of Death when crap breaks? I'ma bet on the latter.

Angel of Death is not giving them 60 foot tall robots, it's the Phoenix Empire IIRC. Why would they not send technical advisors to help maintain and repair the equipment that is now like 1000 miles away from the Phoenix Empire. If they didn't then they have a fast mode of transport, like a Rift, to facilitate all the maintenance a robot would take, however since it's probably a lot of maintenance my guess is they have tech support. It's the only logical way they could have robots remain functional. Unless the Phoenix empire trained the gargs to do their own maintenance, which is a possibility but less likely than just leasing out techs for additional fee.

I was speaking of the closest, technologically advanced (and most likely to help) faction.

Germany and Japan weren't exactly invading the most technologically advanced nations at the time though. Also that's some pretty amazing flight-trick going on there; too bad that doesn't leave out arial surveilance, but instead enables it with great ease. Also, the only reason they've had the NGR "on the ropes" for so long is because the NGR wasn't always the technological juggernaut it is today. coincedentally, the gargoyles have had little to no technologial advancement - something that historically ruins a civilization (the longbow; the catapult; the rifle; the cannon; the plane; the tank; etc...).

Really? Because I thought Japan attacked America and we were pretty advanced. Britain was also one of the most advanced nations at the time. Seriously if you are going to rewrite history and say Germany and Japan faced primitive nations then I think this debate is done.

"LOL LOL LETS NOT REALIZE THAT JAPAN NEVER ACTUALLY INVADED AMERICA, AND THAT GERMANY NEVER INVADED BRITAIN. ALSO LETS FORGET THAT AT THE TIME, OF THE COUNTRIES INVADED, JAPAN HIT UP CHINA WHILE GERMANY DELVED INTO FRANCE AND POLAND LOL LOL."

Sarcasm aside, I suggest you actually attend a history class before you lecture me on it. That is, what you thought had nothing to do with what I said.

Or not. "Hey guys, we're invading a nation, but lets set up an economy with the natives we're invading! We'll just tell them that we're here only to duke it out with the CS; our diplomats'll convince 'em with that. They'll forget our invasion-level numbers instantly!" Yeah, that's gonna work real well.

I think you read my post wrong. Since their economy is mainly in the form of slaves then they probably would start setting up slave centers, to send to Atlantis, in NA as they made their beach head. But yes they might start paying local nations(probably nations used to dealing with supernatural and with low morals) for goods or services if they could strike up a dialogue/agreement.

It's not practical to do so. That is, it's not practical for an army of the size listed as invading to do so. With a smaller force I would agree that they could get local support. Hell, I bet they wouldn't even need to worry about every other major faction on North America expecting to have to fight them later and instead providing the CS with a temporary alliance sooner than they would like.
But as designated in the OP of the thread, there is no way.

They won't stay out of the war; as I stated previously the CS is their biggest consumer. Maybe you like losing your customers/business to conflict, but I'll bet on the majority of people out there don't - even if they do hate the person they sell to.

You stated that but can you tell me where you get this info from? Why is the Coalition the biggest consumer of Lazlo's and what do they consume?

Black-market goods. It's in the various books (I believe the R:UE or CWC specifically); they go crazy for CDs and junk over in the Manistique Imperium, Iron Heart, and Northern Gun. Sounds dumb, but it's a political sore-point that Chi-Town is having a hard time to solve.

Food/Crops I doubt because the coalition has huge areas devoted to their food/crop production. Lazlo's famous TW and magic trade..umm I don't think so. Is Lazlo really China and make all that crappy consumer stuff like DVD players and stuffed toys for the Coalition? I have read text that the Coalition told it's new members to cease all trade with Lazlo because they are enemies of the state and even if they maintain trade Lazlo would be the consumer not the Coalition. I have read that the Coalition is Wilk's biggest consumer but I have never seen anything linking Wilks and Lazlo.

Think about it; the CS is everyones' "biggest consumer" in NA (well, except Merctown). The CS is the largest faction, and though everyone would like to believe that all in the CS are 100% brainwashed and loyal, generally they still have consumer needs; something the CS is not noted for producing.

Wrong; the gargs can attempt to buy mercs. See, unlike the supposed "Mall of America" Atlantis is a den of scary friggin' gangsters who would rather just rob and kill anyone attempting to buy as much "merc"handise as the the gargs would need to in order to have any noteable amount of force added. See, the mercs of merctown consist of armies - which is what the gargoyles are going to need if they want to compare and compete. Far as I know, Gargoyles aren't really the "major-players" you're making them out to be in Atlantis; more like a disorganized street-gang.

It is a big giant interdimensional mall where you can pretty much find anything, including merc armies. At least one of the books even details a merc army that hires out from there, think it's in the Pantheon book, IIRC they also have good relations with many gargoyle kingdoms. The Merc book also had some merc units from Atlantis. Gargoyle Kingdoms around the megaverse also hire out as mercs and Atlantis has a huge gargoyle kingdom of it's own plus the ability to visit who knows how many other kingdoms including Phaseworld. Sure Splynn D-Market is a hive of villainy but Merctown is no picnic spot of virtue. And I doubt the Emperor of the Gargoyles is such a rube that he's going to get completely taken in the market. Not to mention the larger more notable merc companies would not have stayed in business long if they swindled every customer they ever had. Even Evil merc companies need references lol

Not really what I was getting at. Besides this, I personally doubt that the lord of the gargoyles does his own personal shopping.

With all their magic and "superior tactics" they let a human in a gargoyle-suit take a pot-shot at their lord. Seems pretty dumb to me. As for what tolkeen had, it sure did them a whole heap of good - those gargoyle stratagists that is.

I wasn't speaking of gargoyle strategists in Tolkeen. I mentioned gargoyle spies and the ability to buy information or spies in Atlantis. The strategy I mentioned was that Gargoyles may already have spies in place in NA and I would imagine Atlantis as well. Germany had spies all over the world, so did Japan.

I know you weren't speaking of gargoyles strategists; that was my point. The gargs aren't known for their cunning tactics - they're known for their brute force and numbers.
And on your reference of WWII again, you'll note that even a strategically mediocre country can still win against an ultimately bad tactician. Look at what happened to Germany when they didn't press on to Moscow before the winter.

Again; how did these non-fliers get here?
More pointedly; how do they supposedly keep up with the flying forces of gargs, or even know where these CS bases and stockhouses even are?

Oh yeah, they aren't here, and even if they were they don't really know where the CS keeps it's stockpiles or bases.

You're talking about having a group of luddites gaining good intel in a nation more than 10 times the size as the NGR in a matter of weeks/months that the gargoyles are putting to use to shut down this opponent. They couldn't do this with 80 years of intel against their next-door neighbor - how the hell are they supposed to act then?

No I am giving the Gargoyles credit in stating they might already have spies/scouts in place in America and/or they may be buying this info from information brokers in Atlantis.

And the CS might have a neural-toxin that only affects supernatural beings. Possible, but I wouldn't bet on it winning the war.

B) Hmm; a magical nation of creatures that were reknowned and feared for their armies of casters versus the odd gargoyle warlock. The numbers are in the CS war campaign-books.
C) Yes, but not on any level the CS won't already be used to dealing with.

B) I don't have the NGR book. How many gargoyle mages do they have? If it's only 1% of their population that's tens of thousands.

Oddly enough, I don't either. Still, tolkeen was noted for their armies of casters while the gargoyles aren't. Based on this fact I think it's safe to say that the CS is up against a less magically inclined/capable opponent. Until someone can produce evidence to the contrary that is.

C) The coalition doesn't have huge numbers of their stealth bombers/fighters(which you brought up as being a factor the gargs could not deal with) which is where I was going. The Gargs have enough mages either foreign and/or enslaved/hired to deal with the Coalitions small supersonic stealth bomber/fighter squadrons. They only have like 30 stealth fighters, I don't have the Navy book handy with the bombers but my guess is they have about as many bombers or less as they do fighters since it is brand new tech and expensive as heck.

Well for one, you are talking about dealing with a highly mobile enemy harrassing you from attack ranges that are hard to predict.
For two, the force these bombers get to attack is also forced to remain mobile, and thus will never have the same protection a stationary magical city had.

For these two reasons alone it's enough to reduce the effect you think these mages have is going to be nil.

This is a futile statement made to lessen the consession you made earlier about the CS being able to use nukes. If the CS were able to use nukes, then you have your answer; gargoyle defeat.

LOL sorry but I made no concession, if the Coalition use nukes on their lands they are killing themselves even if they took all the NA gargs with them. If the Gargoyle Empire survives even thousands of miles away then who is the biggest loser? The ones who's empire didn't survive at all that's who.

You did though. Here, I'll quote you (for you);

Fine let the CS use nukes. Gargoyles in the area die, CS kills itself(quickly or slowly nukes on their own soil will kill them), gargoyles/FoM/monsters/naruni/Atlantis or whoever else outside the blast zones/fallout area move in after awhile. YAY CS!...oh wait a minute...

Well, given that the area is NORTH AMERICA, and that you even said, "the gargoyles die to nukes". I'm not really seeing how you can say that you didn't make this concession and maintain credibility.

[Dog_O_War]

PEOPLE, the CS is NOT Nazi Germany. Even as a "model" they aren't that close. They see D-Bees as invading aliens, and they shoot on site. They don't impose a double-standard on them, collect them under the false label of "war-criminals and spies" to be sent to death camps, nor do they have a hate-on for a variation of their own species.

Also, Hilter was a bad tactician (in the later years) because he was going mad from siphilys.

The CS is simply a country under martial-law; they aren't even facist given their lack of political parties.

[Greyaxe]

Hitler had a habit of not listening to his generals or advisers, Carl doesn't. The CS are also not above Carpet bombing the crap outta of with nukes.

So many people seem to think 'lets just nuke em' lol. I am really really really glad the leaders of nuke equipped nations are nothing like you folks. Nukes have huge negative downsides. There is a reason why they have only been used twice(within days of each other) in warfare. They simply cause too much devastation to the surrounding area and even the entire world.

Besides I just reread all text regarding the CS nuke usage and it seems they opened up with a limited strike that got swallowed by Rifts but then even when the Rifts were down the CS considered using nukes against Freehold but no text that I can find shows they ever actually used them. I kind of took everyone's word that the CS was nuke happy but so far no text is supporting that.

I hope you are aware that there have been hundreds of nukes detonated on this planet to "test" its affects. Many of which were conducted on American soil. Try google Bikini Island. It was one of the more famous testing grounds. I sence you are inthe military, thank you for your efforts, however make no mistake when an objective is gret enough no sacrifice diminishes the victory. Consider how many times men were sent up a hill in vietnam for no aparent reson at all. Take the hill, the enemy takes it back, take the hill the enemy takes it back. The object her is to continue is to engage the enemy until they are dead. That is the nature of war.

[Greyaxe]

We have had over 2000 tests in the world(about half of those by the US alone) and I have seen some of the giant craters personally, very awe inspiring. In our testing we were quite ignorant of the problems and consequences. Even when we took measures to greatly limit fallout by taking into account weather, detonating underground, remote/barren areas, etc there was still lots of fallout. One underground test effected over 13 million Americans in a sweeping cloud NE/E of Nevada. Above ground tests were often worse. The Bikini Island tests you mentioned were some of the worst(Castle Bravo /shudder). Which is why in the early 1960's all nuclear capable states signed the treaty to ban any tests that were not conducted below ground, although IIRC France and China pretty much ignored the treaty for many years. All nuclear nations banned all testing in the mid 1990's but the new nuclear nations like India, Pakistan and North Korea are not bound by that treaty.

I think military leaders have learned many lessons from the errors of wars past. You won't see very many situations like 'Hamburger Hill' in future wars. I know we spend hours going over deconfliction planning before any op even with just a handful of aircraft. Whereas in wars past they sent thousands of planes in the air in a seat of your pants kind of flying. The Coalition would by necessity have to be careful how they spend their troops. They don't have nearly the population or resources that America has. The CS are much more like Isreal, relatively small population but lots of wars/conflicts. Isreal's main focus in most of their tatcics/planning and weapons design is how to keep their soldiers alive(usually the US's goal too) because they can't afford to lose lots of soldiers.

That is a very sound argument, form a man who is working for a military who appears to have learned from mistakes of the past, however as I said in a previous post the Coalition led by a Diabolic Evil man who desires power and control above all else does not share the same concerns as our leaders of today. Also remember unlike Triax, who has been dealing with a REAL and persistent threat, most of the Coalitions threats are the result of propaganda. With the exception of Tolkeen the CS had had no real threat or war, (in my opinion Free Quebec conflict could have gone on much longer and been a major event in CS history it just wasn't written that way), as such the Prosec regime has not learned the value of conservation. They have not learned the value of the individuals in their military, proven by the renege of the promise of Citizenship for soldiers in the War of Tolkeen.

Quite simply there is no comparison between a free fighting force and a Totalitarian government with a war machine for an economy.

[dark brandon]

But now they have gone through Tolkeen and lost huge amounts of troops. Their leaders will hopefully be looking for ways to lesson casualties in future conflicts. It's likely their people will demand it. When hundreds of thousands of the CS's citizens sons and daughters don't come home I don't care how much the CS tries to spin it the people will want answers as to how they could have lost so many. The CS might be able to play it down initially but if massive losses like that keep happening then they will start having civil unrest. The CS doesn't want that, they like a happy quiet populace. So the Prosek leadership will basically tell it's military leaders and engineers, find us ways to win wars with less casualties.

What casualties? FYI...Most who died were not CS "sons and daughters", but the majority were recruited from outside the cities with promise of getting families into chi-town sooner.

Unless Karl reverses his stance on human cloning and allows Dr Bradford to clone humans and create a workable intelligence transference, then he can just create brain copies of all his soldiers and secretly clone most of his lost troops! He'd have to allow some to die just for appearance sake... Somehow I don't see Karl doing that though given how he hates messing with pure home grown humans.

unless karl reverses his stance on human cloning...what? What was the unless part?

[Greyaxe]

But now they have gone through Tolkeen and lost huge amounts of troops. Their leaders will hopefully be looking for ways to lesson casualties in future conflicts. It's likely their people will demand it. When hundreds of thousands of the CS's citizens sons and daughters don't come home I don't care how much the CS tries to spin it the people will want answers as to how they could have lost so many. The CS might be able to play it down initially but if massive losses like that keep happening then they will start having civil unrest. The CS doesn't want that, they like a happy quiet populace. So the Prosek leadership will basically tell it's military leaders and engineers, find us ways to win wars with less casualties.

Unless Karl reverses his stance on human cloning and allows Dr Bradford to clone humans and create a workable intelligence transference, then he can just create brain copies of all his soldiers and secretly clone most of his lost troops! He'd have to allow some to die just for appearance sake... Somehow I don't see Karl doing that though given how he hates messing with pure home grown humans.

Karl doesn't have to worry about that much, he has Joseph the head of propaganda and the only person he trusts. Joseph gets to create videos of glorious Coalition victories and tell tales of where the victorious may have gone, they don't die. Further they will say the EVIL WIZARDS of Tolkeen have swept away some of the survivors as a last ditch effort to win an unwinnable war. There are a thousand and one ways to spin this. Of course you will never silence those who’s loved ones do not come home, but of course they are subversives who speak against the Glory of the Coalition....and will be tried and hung as the traitors they are. Soon people don’t speak out, soon people forget names and faces of those who don’t come home.

The Glory of propaganda and an ignorant controlled population, desperate for salvation and a better life. Coalition wins…..again.

[dark brandon]

They chewed through most of those burb/outsider recruits in the opening months of the war IIRC, seems like the first couple war books were all about their horrendous losses and how they completely underestimated their foe. Then later they struck back and started pushing Tolkeen back, losses were less but still were there, especially over time, then the Tolkeen Army reversed it and started hurting the CS & pushed them back and for a short time it looked like they won the war. Finally the CS made peace with Quebec, sent all those troops to the Tolkeen front and renewed hostilities rolling right up to the city where they were basically at a standoff until Gericho Holmes reappeared and even then the fighting was intense on both sides. The CS definitely did not win that final battle without casualties nor did they walk away casualty free after that many years of war.

There's a difference. I said "most" not all. In the final book, it states that most of the losses were burbies/non-cs citizens. Next, No one ever said they were casualty free or they got a free ride. In the end, as stated in either the final book or aftermath, CS didn't really suffer all that much.

The Lonestar book has stated that Karl specifically forbade Dr. Bradford from doing any type of human experimentation or cloning. Bradford does it anyway but for this discussion that's neither here nor there. The official CS policy is no human experiments or cloning. I have not seen anything that states otherwise.

What I meant by "unless" You said Unless Karl allows bradford to experiment...there was no effect. Unless he allows him to experiment and clone humans then what? Unless he allows him to clone humans, humans will continue to diversify...or Humans will die...they can't win....you never followed up your "unless" with anything.

I'm surprised this is still going. It's written in canon how cs would fair against Gargs.

pg. 88 of CWC

"Even on the international level, the cs army is formidable, only slightly less so than the NGR and splugorth of atlantis. The Gargoyle empire would have the comparative upper hand only because of sheer numbers and supernatural power. The strength of the CS forces comes not only from their powerful war machines and high technology, but from the spirit and commitment of its millions of fierce, fanatical soldiers and brilliant officers who embody the fighting spirit of the CS. THese elements, combined with the universal support of the population and the charismatic leadership of Emperor Prosek, makes the CS military a powerhouse with few peers."

[Greyaxe]

Of course you will never silence those who’s loved ones do not come home, but of course they are subversives who speak against the Glory of the Coalition....and will be tried and hung as the traitors they are. Soon people don’t speak out, soon people forget names and faces of those who don’t come home.

The Glory of propaganda and an ignorant controlled population, desperate for salvation and a better life. Coalition wins…..again.

Yeah if the Coalition were to get all medieval on their own people they might be able to silence them. I know they kill some in this way already, going full out and killing thousands though seems a bit out of character. But Karl is mad so it's possible. Once he did that though many of his generals and military leaders might start thinking it's coup time because they would definitely think he's insane.

Possibly.... Depends how it was done. You could create a sub group within the government to weed out subversives and...... oh wait. The ISS... nevermind its alredy done.

[Dog_O_War]

PEOPLE, the CS is NOT Nazi Germany. Even as a "model" they aren't that close. They see D-Bees as invading aliens, and they shoot on site. They don't impose a double-standard on them, collect them under the false label of "war-criminals and spies" to be sent to death camps, nor do they have a hate-on for a variation of their own species.

Doesn't the Tolkeen wars books list death camps(possibly on both sides)? I am pretty sure I read that there were some CS death camps with mages and d-bees.

Also Human mages and even psychics are persecuted and killed by the CS. So yeah they do have a "hate-on" for variations of their own species. The CS also considers humans who consort with d-bees, mages or other enemies of the state as traitors to humanity.

The CS and Nazi Germany both controlled information, learning and rewrote history to serve their needs.

There are many other similarities that can be shown.

Okay people, please apply just an ounce of thought to this.

Mages are outlaws (and shot on sight) because MAGIC is outlawed. That a human practices it means they break a law that carries the penalty of death.

Next, D-Bees are taken to processing camps for summary destruction; this is far, FAR different than a death camp. Death camps operated under the premice of a prison-camp for soldiers. This is not the same; there is no illusion about what goes on there.

Also, psychics are only looked bad apon; the CS uses these types in their very army. It's only citizen stima that has "persecution" on your minds. The actual CS would rather utilize a psychic than destroy it.

[dark brandon]

Cool so canon states that comparing the 2 the Gargoyles would have the upper hand. This throws out the whole 'the CS would wipe the floor with them' rhetoric. At best CS would scrape by a win and be easy picking for some other power. But they are also just as likely to lose and the gargs would be severely weakened. Although in the garg's case I bet they can just go out into the megaverse, spread the word how this empire kicked ass and recruit lots of small tribes. The CS could recruit humans too but would take many years to get their army back up to snuff, while the gargs could do it in much less time.

Your view of the canon is staggering. "At best the CS would scrape by"...I don't get that from the text at all. It says "the gargs would have an upper hand"...that by no means "Complete obliteration of the CS". This means it'd be a war. It means CS could scrape by with a win, CS would simply win, Gargs could just scrape by and Gargs could simply win. It also states that CS is slightly less powerful than Triax/NGR. Think about that...It's the third most powerful nation on earth, which means....it's stronger than the Garg. empire, maybe only slightly more so...but still stronger.

And if you think the gargs would travel the megaverse telling how it just got severely weakened by MORTALS and that other smaller tribes would join are not taking into consideration that these are "DEMONS". It would be like going home when you were in the 5th grade to tell your dad you just got beat up by a girl. It just doesn't happen. And no, Gargs are not dimensional travelers. Only lords and mages can teleport...but not D. teleport.

Emporer Prosek is one of the ones who has doubts and concerns regarding Psychics, he allowed the formation of Psi-Bat on advise from several CS scientists and his own son, as a test bed to see if they were really humans evolving to defend against the supernatural and as a test weapon to utilize. However he and many other leaders including many citizens still harbor the old prejudices and psychics are still persecuted.

Once again, why is this even brought up? In canon it states (CWC) Pg 191 tells you excatly how the CS handles psychics.

Where do you get "he and many others including many citizens"....There is only 5% of the population that fears and distrusts psychics....5%. That's it. A summery "If you are psychic and work for the CS military = Full grade citizen. Everyone loves and trusts you. If you are psychic and don't work for the CS...you're viewed with suspicion."

[Avatara]

the only problem with the holmes as xit scenario is that if you read the xit's reactions to just one robot or power armour is that marching a full army threw their territory would be a death sentence. But that is a debate for Another thread.

[runebeo]

The Gargoyle Nation are not set up in North America and if they did try to start a small nation the CS, Free Quebec & Lazlo would all take action quickly, because of what has happened in NGR. The Gargoyle Nation didn't just appear in Germany they were there for over century growing and thats not going to happen in N.A., plus in Germany the NGR stands alone with few allies. In America theres way more kingdoms and nations, which would stand together against such a invasion. Even the Federation of Magic would not let the Gargoyles grow to unmanageable numbers, that would hurt their own plans of one day ruling N.A.

[dark brandon]

which are two levels at leasr down to the NGR.

Two levels? Whats the measurement for that? Seriously, CS is only 10 years behind Triax in development (info on triax), and probably 10 years ahead of Triax in regards to genetic research.

they must been very well hidden, with the exception of Jericho Holmes(and i consider his orders for the Xtixic march really genius) there was not one to see in the Tolkeen theatre.

No...you have a nerd writing a war book that probably knows very little about warfare. For what he knew and understand, yes, they were geniuses compared to Tolkeen. Which is why everyone is all up in arms as to why Tolkeen lost, because they were lead by idiots or rather people who didn't understand warfare because the writer didn't understand warfare.

in the small broken political Landscape of Rifts NA ,Yes, Numbers count for somethin, but against powerhouses like Gargoyle Empire, NGR

You do realize I quoted that directly from the book, right? There is no argument to be made. It states, in black and white that CS is the 3rd strongest nation IN THE WORLD. Thats directly from the book...

[dark brandon]

Boy those burbs must be never ending because the CS just wiped out hundreds of thousands of them in the war with Tolkeen haha. Oh and the Tolkeen war pretty much said that because of their poor training they were dismally effective against mages and supernatural.

Well, it was anyone from anywhere. I believe it's stated in Vampire kingdoms that El Paso has a recruitment post set up there. The burbs are where the majority came from, but they were able to get people from all over NA, but yes it does state they have a near endless supply of volunteers from the burbs.

I don't think it said in SoT their training was poor. I believe it stated they had good training, but they were unprepared to go against mages and supernatural, but in aftermath it stated CS had learned from it's mistakes.

[Greyaxe]

Boy those burbs must be never ending because the CS just wiped out hundreds of thousands of them in the war with Tolkeen haha. Oh and the Tolkeen war pretty much said that because of their poor training they were dismally effective against mages and supernatural.

Well, it was anyone from anywhere. I believe it's stated in Vampire kingdoms that El Paso has a recruitment post set up there. The burbs are where the majority came from, but they were able to get people from all over NA, but yes it does state they have a near endless supply of volunteers from the burbs.

I don't think it said in SoT their training was poor. I believe it stated they had good training, but they were unprepared to go against mages and supernatural, but in aftermath it stated CS had learned from it's mistakes.

Thank you Brandon you beat me to it.

I pretty much remember they said they had less training then normal because they were rushed into service but could be wrong. Anyway it will take years to build up a trained army again, sure they could hand burbs people weapons but they will have extremely poor performance versus a gargoyle.

Thats true. They would die in the first few waves. But that may be all the CS would need to build a line and start shelling with high explosives and frags.

[dark brandon]

I pretty much remember they said they had less training then normal because they were rushed into service but could be wrong. Anyway it will take years to build up a trained army again, sure they could hand burbs people weapons but they will have extremely poor performance versus a gargoyle.

THey were not rushed into service, but many were still green.

[dark brandon]

Psyscape talks about Karl and other leaders doubts in using psychics. And even though the CS has been doing a propaganda campaign to get people to accept CS psychics there is still wide prejudice without being super extreme KKK types. This prejudice would include less chance of promotion, worse treatment, less pay, less acceptance among human society. Many many books express this view including the RUE (pg 153) on CS Psi-Stalkers. Since the CWC pgp 191 was talking about their propaganda campaign to make psychics accepted I think that whole, 'everyone loves CS psychics and only 5% distrust them' was just propaganda that you fell for.

Psi-stalkers are psychic mutant humans. They are not treated as well as human psychics, but as stated in CWC, if they are part of the military they garner much more respect.

Where do you get the 10 years? All the quotes I read said 20-30 years behind NGR in tech. I agree they are ahead of NGR in genetics and probably farther than 10 years since NGR seems to do so very little beyond extending lifespans.

Pg 17 NGR "their mastery of robotics is at least 10 years ahead of CS."

[dark brandon]

behind Atlantis and the NGR., and the Gargoyles and the NGR are locked, so why would the weaker Coalition, far better?

Strength doesn't mean "hands down victory". NGR and gargs are locked even though the garg empire is weaker. CS probably wouldn't fair better, but that doesn't mean they would lose.

[Avatara]

Keep in mind that when the triax book was written that the CS only had one type of flying power armour. (actually only 1 in total)If we go by the book stats the NGR power armour is better than the CS one. How ever KS has been putting more books out for the CS than the NGR and now the CS's war tech is better than the NGR. If they come out with an NGR2 book than that may change. Or if you just assume that the NGR is still 10-30 years ahead it would be reasonable to think that they upgraded their PA around the same time the CS did.

[Ziggurat the Eternal]

another thing to remember is that gargs have on average 3-400 mdc on top(or under if you will) of their armor and technology.
gargoyles = bad ass. gurgoyles slightly less so. Now that leaves us with millions of bad ass's, or several hundred thousand i can't remember, with high tech weapons armor and robots. Not to mention a...fair..idea of tactics, vs the coalition states.

they have all of the coalitions same advantages.

Coalition: experience with the supernatural, numbers, superior tactics, giant killer robots.

Gargoyles: experience with tech opponents, numbers, superior tactics, giant killer robots.

stalemate. ok so maybe gargs have average tactics, but they have supreme defense. only if the cs had jannisaries would they have a serious advantage. Of course the jannisary project happend in my game, so in my game they would win after a long and costly war.


ps. the NGR has combat fighter jets too.