CS Grunt Survival Training, What would you take?

[boxee]

canteen and water by far the most useful, unless you want to get really sick. you drink from a stream and can die from the micro organizums (pardon my spelling). so you drink out of a stream in rifts, i shudder to think what can happen. without water you die in 3 days? everything else if useful, not needed. if a predator gets on you in rifts your dead even with a gun and maybe damaged armor right?

[Dead Boy]

canteen and water by far the most useful, unless you want to get really sick. you drink from a stream and can die from the micro organizums (pardon my spelling). so you drink out of a stream in rifts, i shudder to think what can happen.

Yes sir-ree!

See "Container" in the 5 C's list above.

... without water you die in 3 days? ...

Actually you have three days of useful activity. After three days without water, you go crazy and weak. In five days to a week (total) you die. The basic formula for water-loss to loss of efficiency is moving the decimal point over one place. Lose 1% of your weight in water, lose 10% of your efficiency (i.e., ability to function). Obviously temperature and exertion plays a roll in how fast this occurs, but even in the best conditions, you still die in 10 days tops (and that's starting off fully hydrated, perfectly healthy, doing nothing, sitting in the shade in mild 70-degree F weather, and not saying a single word all that time). In more realistic conditions where its hot and/or where you're exerting yourself, you can loose a quart and a half a day in water sweating alone. Add in urination, fecal waste, and water vapor carried in your breath, and you can easily double or triple that given the right conditions. Do the math, and basically, loose about a gallon of water and you're on death's door. Loose any more and you're talking to St. Peter at the Pearly Gates.

[azazel1024]

Survival knife. Ignoring the matches you can use the back of the knife with flint and a couple of other rock types to strike sparks. 6 matches, if you do a good job, will get you 6 fires. In addition once you start one fire you can carry it with you to your next campsite.

Knife...well you can do a hell of a lot with one. Needent say more. The twine, weights and hooks would be excellent for an attempt at fishing.

Nothing else on the list would really help you out. You can use the helmet of the armor as a canteen and/or for boiling water in it to sterilize. Frankly I'd ditch the rest of it other than the gauntlets and helmet. I might consider keeping the greaves for bushing through thick underbrush. It'll just weigh me down and won't provide any real protection of MD badies show up since I don't have a real weapon.

Vibroblade wouldn't be able to strike sparks to start a fire.

Honestly if I know where I am going, I could probably high tail it in just a couple of days. If I have no idea or little idea, a 10 day beeline trip means more like 20-30 with stopping to make decent shelters, fish/hunt/scavenge, etc. A 10 day trip without really knowing where I am going means more like 2-3 if I push it hard making only minimal shelters, fire and foraging.

[Blue_Lion]

Getting barrens by sun is slow and not the most accuate. Compas is faster, and requires less training. Most people cant use the sun to guide them. Land marks is better way to find where you are and get barrens. I droping ungeared people in the woods for survial training in rifts is almost is foolish to many whould be troups whould die for it to be practical. By the way CS grunts have no standard survial training. It is not a OCC skill, they are not the US military they according to the books use swarm tactics with there base troops more on line with WWII german troops. Large scale prolonged wars are not verry common in north america.

[DhAkael]

In response to the topic; lucky rabbits foot, spare underwear and own body bag.
Namely due to standard, sub-standard training that will result in eventual deresolution.

[Athos]

So, what do you pick and why. In my earlier life in the U.S. Army, I had to do survival training and on occasion, teach it. If I was lucky I would get a compass (Once I, think) mostly it was just a standard bayonet. Some, nothing at all. Hince the poll idea.

U.S. Army or the Flintstone Militia of Bedrock? I was in the US Army from 1984 to 1992, and we were given a buttload of equipment... a hell of a lot more than I wanted to carry anyways. Without a map and a compass and training, you wouldn't have made it on the survival courses I was on. Even with all the equipment and the training (mostly by NCOs out of the Viet Nam war, at least when I started) we still lost a hell of a lot of men in training. One cycle at the NTC I was at we lost 8 men from one brigade in one month of training. At Ft. Hood in 1985, we lost 30+ men to training accidents, some to the weather, like flash floods and lightning, some to tankers running over you in the middle of the night. I spent time in environments as varied as the rain forest to the desert, and no where did they send us without any equipment or training. Either we were valued a bit higher than your unit, or I have to throw the BS flag on your idea of no equipment.

Not sure if you are a poser, or were just trying to be funny or what, but it bothers me to have people that have never been in the military thinking we are just some wannabes that are trying to be tough. When I was in, granted it was a long time ago, soldiers were well trained and well equipped and we were professionals doing a tough job. It isn't some dumb butt Rambo wannabes, with a silly little survival knife (even thought that makes for good TV), that makes us feared thoughout the world. It is the fact that we are the best equipped and best trained army overall that makes us feared. Ok, I am through ranting now... but seriously, does anyone think for one minute that any Army, let alone the US one, is so unprofessional that you would be given nothing and turned lose, even in a training environment and told to just hang out and survive?

I would think the CS Army, would be similar to ours, or any professional military and that you would be trained to use your equipment and the advantage it gives you over the lesser equipped and trained forces. Any drill sergeant worth his salt, is going to teach you it isn't your job to die for your country, its your job to make the other guy die for his. You use what you have to do that. If you have numbers, you use them, if you have technology, you use it... why do you think we attack at night so much? Our night vision is far superior to anyone else's, is that fair? Hell no, two dumb butts with knives is fair, shooting someone that can't see you isn't, but it is smart, and it is how you win. And when it comes to a professional military, it's winning that matters.

[bigbobsr6000]

To Athos
1972-1993 U.S. Army, VFW, Disabled Vet and Retired. In early years of 1970's I was given survival training. At end of course we were taken out in the woods about 10 miles from camp in the middle of the night and dropped off individually with canteen of water, our fatique uniform and boots and steel pot. Escape and Evasion was also included. OPFOR was out to get us. I navigated by the lights on the horizon of towns and stars. Made it back by morning. One example.

Been trained in jungle, desert and artic survival over my career. Even taught it some troops here and there.

I'm not a poser. I was in the service from Vietnam era to Desert Sheild/Storm and all the stuff in between. Started out as an armor crewmember (11E MOS, I think, at the time) 1975-76? I became a Combat Engineer, 51B MOS carpenter and ended as 51H40 MOS (21H40 now I believe.) Construction Supervisor and second MOS of 63B40 basically the crusty ole' Motor Pool Sgt.

Sorry for the rant or if I've come accross to strong, just don't like my mititay service questioned. And I'm A cranky old retired fart.
and....GET OFF MY LAWN!!!!

[Saitou Hajime]

canteen and water by far the most useful, unless you want to get really sick. you drink from a stream and can die from the micro organizums (pardon my spelling). so you drink out of a stream in rifts, i shudder to think what can happen.

Yes sir-ree!

See "Container" in the 5 C's list above.

... without water you die in 3 days? ...

Actually you have three days of useful activity. After three days without water, you go crazy and weak. In five days to a week (total) you die. The basic formula for water-loss to loss of efficiency is moving the decimal point over one place. Lose 1% of your weight in water, lose 10% of your efficiency (i.e., ability to function). Obviously temperature and exertion plays a roll in how fast this occurs, but even in the best conditions, you still die in 10 days tops (and that's starting off fully hydrated, perfectly healthy, doing nothing, sitting in the shade in mild 70-degree F weather, and not saying a single word all that time). In more realistic conditions where its hot and/or where you're exerting yourself, you can loose a quart and a half a day in water sweating alone. Add in urination, fecal waste, and water vapor carried in your breath, and you can easily double or triple that given the right conditions. Do the math, and basically, loose about a gallon of water and you're on death's door. Loose any more and you're talking to St. Peter at the Pearly Gates.

ands people wonder why I took the water first.

[Blue_Lion]

So, what do you pick and why. In my earlier life in the U.S. Army, I had to do survival training and on occasion, teach it. If I was lucky I would get a compass (Once I, think) mostly it was just a standard bayonet. Some, nothing at all. Hince the poll idea.

U.S. Army or the Flintstone Militia of Bedrock? I was in the US Army from 1984 to 1992, and we were given a buttload of equipment... a hell of a lot more than I wanted to carry anyways. Without a map and a compass and training, you wouldn't have made it on the survival courses I was on. Even with all the equipment and the training (mostly by NCOs out of the Viet Nam war, at least when I started) we still lost a hell of a lot of men in training. One cycle at the NTC I was at we lost 8 men from one brigade in one month of training. At Ft. Hood in 1985, we lost 30+ men to training accidents, some to the weather, like flash floods and lightning, some to tankers running over you in the middle of the night. I spent time in environments as varied as the rain forest to the desert, and no where did they send us without any equipment or training. Either we were valued a bit higher than your unit, or I have to throw the BS flag on your idea of no equipment.

Not sure if you are a poser, or were just trying to be funny or what, but it bothers me to have people that have never been in the military thinking we are just some wannabes that are trying to be tough. When I was in, granted it was a long time ago, soldiers were well trained and well equipped and we were professionals doing a tough job. It isn't some dumb butt Rambo wannabes, with a silly little survival knife (even thought that makes for good TV), that makes us feared thoughout the world. It is the fact that we are the best equipped and best trained army overall that makes us feared. Ok, I am through ranting now... but seriously, does anyone think for one minute that any Army, let alone the US one, is so unprofessional that you would be given nothing and turned lose, even in a training environment and told to just hang out and survive?

I would think the CS Army, would be similar to ours, or any professional military and that you would be trained to use your equipment and the advantage it gives you over the lesser equipped and trained forces. Any drill sergeant worth his salt, is going to teach you it isn't your job to die for your country, its your job to make the other guy die for his. You use what you have to do that. If you have numbers, you use them, if you have technology, you use it... why do you think we attack at night so much? Our night vision is far superior to anyone else's, is that fair? Hell no, two dumb butts with knives is fair, shooting someone that can't see you isn't, but it is smart, and it is how you win. And when it comes to a professional military, it's winning that matters.

Corect for the most part. Sun navigation is in the books for emergency use only. I was a land nav instuctor for deploying troops 07-08 dont even cover it. Now days traing has a ton of safty limits on it. We no longer use steel pots so you cant boil water in your helmet. Cs armor is worse for that protecting you from normal fires. As to mettle armor having that issue with large size of IBA plates in large armor has a mettle plate in it. Troops have to hold compass out at arms legnth to use it loosing accuracy. Beeing off 1 degree on your azmith puts you 10 meters off target at hundread metters so accuracy is important. Surviaval training is not trained to most troops any more limited to combat arms and pilots. Not shure why probaly lost to many troops from combat servis suport to it. Night land nav, and day land nav is still used thou.

As to ditching your EBA armor because it slows you down that is dumb. It is climet controlled keeps you warm in the cold and cool in the heat saves energy and water. A cs grunt whould be condition to travel in it all day long. Also you can get at food without risking exposer such as edible plants in water. And lets not forget the radio, most likely in the helmet where people want to put there water. This is not vietnam era gear, putting water in your helmet is not a good idea unless you are despert. True survival traing now days is done with a full combat load. That means all your gear you take to the fight. What is the point of training if it does not match what troops should face in the field. Realy what happend to your main weapon your ruck, and all the gear you took out with you.

[Athos]

To Athos

I'm not a poser. I was in the service from Vietnam era to Desert Sheild/Storm and all the stuff in between. Started out as an armor crewmember (11E MOS, I think, at the time) 1975-76? I became a Combat Engineer, 51B MOS carpenter and ended as 51H40 MOS (21H40 now I believe.) Construction Supervisor and second MOS of 63B40 basically the crusty ole' Motor Pool Sgt.

I spent most of my time as a 98C (signals intelligence, NSA, etc.), my specialty was North Korea, but I worked with a lot of guys from SF, LRSU, and other ground pounders. I have just never heard of them not having any equipment while training, we always had full gear, and it was heavy as hell, especially when wet. If you say that is how you trained your people, I will take your word for it, but I do not see the purpose in training without gear, when you are going to be loaded down with gear during actual deployments.

My point still is, that is not how militaries train in general, your unit may have been a special case for whatever reason, I can't say. You go into combat with full gear, you train with full gear... What is the point of having say night vision optics if you have never trained with them and aren't familiar with them and can't use them to their fullest potential? Ya, it's great to be good without them, but if you have them, make use of them. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

[azazel1024]

EBA is unlikely to have 10 days worth of power. The books never cover it well, but I'd guess at most you might have 72hrs of power for a suit of EBA for things like environmental controls. You could always strip any insulation and padding out of the helment or other pieces to boil water with.

For taking the canteen...well a canteen worth of water replaces about half a days water loss if you are taking it easy in a mild environment. It won't get you through 10 days.

You can find other things to boil water in if you need to, or at worst just try to find the cleanest drinking source and hope for no crypto or giardia. Or hope by the time you come down with either you are back home safe and sound.

[bigbobsr6000]

To Athos

I'm not a poser. I was in the service from Vietnam era to Desert Sheild/Storm and all the stuff in between. Started out as an armor crewmember (11E MOS, I think, at the time) 1975-76? I became a Combat Engineer, 51B MOS carpenter and ended as 51H40 MOS (21H40 now I believe.) Construction Supervisor and second MOS of 63B40 basically the crusty ole' Motor Pool Sgt.

I spent most of my time as a 98C (signals intelligence, NSA, etc.), my specialty was North Korea, but I worked with a lot of guys from SF, LRSU, and other ground pounders. I have just never heard of them not having any equipment while training, we always had full gear, and it was heavy as hell, especially when wet. If you say that is how you trained your people, I will take your word for it, but I do not see the purpose in training without gear, when you are going to be loaded down with gear during actual deployments.

My point still is, that is not how militaries train in general, your unit may have been a special case for whatever reason, I can't say. You go into combat with full gear, you train with full gear... What is the point of having say night vision optics if you have never trained with them and aren't familiar with them and can't use them to their fullest potential? Ya, it's great to be good without them, but if you have them, make use of them. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

I didn't have all that equipment until starting in about 1983-84? My steel pot was replaced by the Kelvar helmet. And of course all the other stuff you mentioned started showing up. Heck, there was still WACS when I first came in until about 1978 I think. Only armor we had was the old Flak jacket and the mentioned steel pot. We still had the old "butt pack" to put stuff in. If memory serves me correctly in our back pack or ruck sack now, we only had a sleeping bag, shelter half, 3 tent poles, 5? tent pegs, plus extra clothes and boots, towels, mess kit and such. Oh, yeah the entrenching tool was on our pistol belt with canteen, 2 ammo pouches, bayonet, "butt pack", gas mask (didn't even have NBC or Chemical suits then) LBE with 1st aid bandage. Ate a lot of C-rations in my time back then.

In closing I agree it would have been great to have all the stuff you had and I eventually got when I first joined, but we didn't. Training was different then than when you were in and even more now. Better for the most part. And I definitely agree all that stuff is heavy. I don't think I ever got that fancy armor, still had the Flak vest when I left, at least I did.

Anyway, thanks for your comments and you are right, no one trains that way today. One correction, I didn't train my troops that way, always did it like terrain walk or station to staion kinda of thing.

[Nightmask]

Doesn't that survival training depend on what specialized branch or unit you're in? Understandable that everyone would get trained having to deal with the fullest load-out of gear possible but isn't the point of survival training to get by without all of that? So end up trained to survive with virtually nothing in case one gets trapped alone and must survive. Not so common nowadays like it was up into the Vietnam war but it would seem to make sense to be trained to get by with a lot less than the standard load-out.

[Blue_Lion]

EBA is unlikely to have 10 days worth of power. The books never cover it well, but I'd guess at most you might have 72hrs of power for a suit of EBA for things like environmental controls. You could always strip any insulation and padding out of the helment or other pieces to boil water with.

For taking the canteen...well a canteen worth of water replaces about half a days water loss if you are taking it easy in a mild environment. It won't get you through 10 days.

You can find other things to boil water in if you need to, or at worst just try to find the cleanest drinking source and hope for no crypto or giardia. Or hope by the time you come down with either you are back home safe and sound.

Actualy it was coverred in the original mechniods if i rembver right it was 1 eclip can charge 3 eba for a year.

Congrats you just filled your hemet with water and ruined the mike on your radio and how well does MDC materal conduct heat? if it conducted heat well what whould happen to you when you get hit with MDC Fire that is one hell of.

Now most military canteens on the other hand sit in a meatle cup wonder what that is for? Maybe to boil the water also a hemet is a open container at best it can spill while travling cross contry and stuff whould fall it. Maybe as a worse case you can try it but i whould not recomand it as a main plan.

[Blue_Lion]

Doesn't that survival training depend on what specialized branch or unit you're in? Understandable that everyone would get trained having to deal with the fullest load-out of gear possible but isn't the point of survival training to get by without all of that? So end up trained to survive with virtually nothing in case one gets trapped alone and must survive. Not so common nowadays like it was up into the Vietnam war but it would seem to make sense to be trained to get by with a lot less than the standard load-out.

No Survial training is standard for most of the army, land navigation shure field problems yes. Moving with gear yes but training to find food and water is not done nore is building shelters when you dont have one. What you are refering to is closer to SEARS training done by pilots and SF. It is highly limited and highly regualted and even then they start with there combat load and keep it for the training. Purifiacion tablits kept in pouch on canteens, matches night vision gear. The tittle of this topic is grunt training is survial and if you look at the OCC they dont have the skill as a standard skill.

[Dead Boy]

....As to mettle armor having that issue with large size of IBA plates in large armor has a mettle plate in it. Troops have to hold compass out at arms legnth to use it loosing accuracy. Beeing off 1 degree on your azmith puts you 10 meters off target at hundread metters so accuracy is important.

For the record, Coalition body armor is mainly ceramic, not metal. (CWC 99) There should be very little to throw off a magnetic compass reading.

EBA is unlikely to have 10 days worth of power. The books never cover it well, but I'd guess at most you might have 72hrs of power for a suit of EBA for things like environmental controls.

What do you think this is? Steampunk? Read Rifts Canada for more on this.

Normally when in sub-zero conditions a person’s environmental body armor can keep him warm and cozy for 75 hours for every 10 M.D.C. the armor has. In below freezing water heat is sapped off 25-30 times faster, dropping this to 3 hours per 10 M.D.C. (the Canada book says less time for the same rate when under water, but their math makes no sense). This makes it possible to function in these freezing conditions (out of water) for up to about a full month before the system overloads, barring any damage to the armor.

Now, again, this is the endurance of the life support system in sub-zero conditions. And I don't think they're talking Celsius. That means even under normal winter temperatures south of the Great Lakes, the EBA's heater should last even longer. I don't have the South America book handy, but I'm pretty sure it says about the same for the armor's capacity to cool in extreme heat.

[Blue_Lion]

....As to mettle armor having that issue with large size of IBA plates in large armor has a mettle plate in it. Troops have to hold compass out at arms legnth to use it loosing accuracy. Beeing off 1 degree on your azmith puts you 10 meters off target at hundread metters so accuracy is important.

For the record, Coalition body armor is mainly ceramic, not metal. (CWC 99) There should be very little to throw off a magnetic compass reading.

As are the balastic plates but in larger sizes they use mettle to reinforce them. The use of mettle reinforcments is comon practice to increase durabilty.
Also make shure you turn off all systems in your armor when you use the compas to include the computer to avoid interfance.

But you missed the point I was saying that you need to be aware of the afect your gear has on a compass, in rifts they often use gyro compasses instead of megnatic to avoid the issue.

As to the heater part that is when the heater burns out not when the armor runs out of power.