A question of Archery attacks per round clarification?

[Killer Cyborg]

Even'n folks.
As one of my locals is setting up to try running rifts, we find ourselves eyeballing a few rules issues.

The first of which, most likely has been asked before, but my blind eyes can't seem to find the answer..

Given that in almost all the older books, Hand to Hand types were 2 (base) + HTH attacks, a rule that almost felt 'unwritten' in how easy it was to miss.. I have to wonder if it also applies to the Archery and Targeting WP, and more notably to Bows. Reason being it lists 2 attacks per round to start with, even in the RUE. Is this the base two plus two from the WP (and however many you build up to as you move further on), or -just- two, making the average first level archer end up with less actions per round than other folks, -or- is it 'two bow attacks out of your normal number of HTH attacks' (which breaks down as you end up later with more bow attacks than HTH attacks to base it from)?

Thanks!
- Shirra

The rule that PCs have a base of 2 attacks, and that this is added to the base number of attacks from HTH skills, was NOT a rule originally in Rifts. It didn't crop up until (I believe) sometime after Atlantis came out.
The ROF for archery always replaced melee attacks, not been added to them.

So once those extra attacks were added, archers everywhere were suddenly slower than melee combatants.
It's still that way today, AFAIK.

[Killer Cyborg]

The rule that PCs have a base of 2 attacks, and that this is added to the base number of attacks from HTH skills, was NOT a rule originally in Rifts. It didn't crop up until (I believe) sometime after Atlantis came out.
The ROF for archery always replaced melee attacks, not been added to them.

So once those extra attacks were added, archers everywhere were suddenly slower than melee combatants.
It's still that way today, AFAIK.

Mmm.. That's not good. Unfortunately makes sense, but is definitely not good. I've got two players eyeballing bows as weapons of choice, one of whom wants to try using the Long Bowman from PFRPG, whereas the other just wants to use it with their mercenary as a 'break from gun nuts'.
Now, I'll admit, using a bow is slower than punching or shooting a gun, but still. Any suggestions on how to rectify this, as we're dealing with an alternative to the 4-then-more of HTH and the based there-upon guns for most foes and other group members? I haven't crunched the numbers comparing the WP to the various HTH's, nor to what the OCC mentioned has.. yet. Going to later, but it's nice to get an informed opinion from folks who've actually gotten to run the game in a real way, heh.

- Shirra

Things are made worse by the passage on p. 59 of PFRPG II:
"The long bow is exclusive to the Long Bowman and Ranger OCCs. Skilled archers who are not long bowmen can use the weapon, but find it awkward, all bonuses to strike are half, and the rate of fire is equal to the archer's normal hand to hand attacks per melee (no bonus shots from the WP)."

We've hashed this out before, and the reference to "bonus shots" does not seem to refer to the ROF: 2 with the bow, but rather to the additional shots that long bowmen get as they level up.
But you could play it that way anyway, if you like, as a house rule, just adding the base 2 attacks to the ROF, as with HTH combat.

OR (and this is how I've done it), use the ROF listed for the long bowman OCC or the characters number of melee attacks, whichever is greater.
So at low levels, if the character has 4 melee attacks, he can make 4 bow shots per melee.
But at higher levels, once his ROF is higher than his number of melee attacks, he can use the ROF instead.

[rat_bastard]

As a word of advice, Being a minor or major psychic goes a long way for archers, techno wizard arrows are cheap (for magic items) and very cool. Also using the improved archery rules in rifter 30 makes an archer very cool.

[elecgraystone]

If your an elf and take sharpshooter (bow), you end up with two more attacks. That starts them off with 4 attacks.

[Killer Cyborg]

OR (and this is how I've done it), use the ROF listed for the long bowman OCC or the characters number of melee attacks, whichever is greater.
So at low levels, if the character has 4 melee attacks, he can make 4 bow shots per melee.
But at higher levels, once his ROF is higher than his number of melee attacks, he can use the ROF instead.

I floated this idea in the GMs forum once, a few months ago, and was shouted down for it.

The RoF can get a bit improbable at high levels, but I still agree that it's the best system for most PCs, imo.

~RS

My long bowman also had permanent Fleet Feet.
I think he had something like 16-17 attacks per melee with all the whistles & bells going.

[elecgraystone]

You didn't throw boxing into your equation. If you do that you'll see HTH assassin is ahead of archery until 12 were they tie and 14th were it pulls ahead for one level before they tie again at 15th.

Of course this only applies if you have the RUE and are using the new archery skill. If you use the old skill, you end up with one less attack. (meaning you never catch up to assassin+boxing)

[elecgraystone]

LOL There are ways around the alignment issue. Some classes/races let you take it without any restrictions and your alignment can always change after you learned it. One easy way is to simply get an insanity. Reborn is the easy way to have a good person with assassin.

[Killer Cyborg]

You didn't throw boxing into your equation. If you do that you'll see HTH assassin is ahead of archery until 12 were they tie and 14th were it pulls ahead for one level before they tie again at 15th.

Of course this only applies if you have the RUE and are using the new archery skill. If you use the old skill, you end up with one less attack. (meaning you never catch up to assassin+boxing)

Actually.. We've got a little house rule, that we've had since we first eyeballed the Rifts books.
Boxing's extra attack applies to punching, dodging, and using your hands for blocking. Nothing else. And is invalid for rounds in which you use a weapon at all.
It kept our lil' "Oh, boxing teaches me how to shoot a gun faster!" nutters from making us pull hair out. o.o But as noted, that's a house rule.

- Shirra

Makes sense, as long as you do the same for HTH Combat in general.

[elecgraystone]

Makes sense, as long as you do the same for HTH Combat in general.

Agreed. You have to take away all those pesky attacks from your HTH skill too. Or does "Oh, martial arts teaches me how to shoot a gun faster" make you pull out less hair?

[elecgraystone]

That's why is seems unfair to remove the boxing attack from shooting a gun since all of your attacks are based on how good your HTH skills are. (IE how good you are at punching someone) It seems to me boxing and HTH are kind of a package deal. If you leave HTH affect shooting a gun, boxing should stay. If you redo guns to use a ROF like archery, then boxing goes.

[bigbobsr6000]

According to this site: http://margo.student.utwente.nl/sagi/ar ... ngbow.html

"The longbow, because of its rapidity of fire, was a medieval machine gun. It has been calculated that a bowman of the Hundred Years War period, when military archery was at its zenith, could shoot 10 to 12 arrows a minute.”

Using 12 that’s 60 sec/12 = 1 shot/5sec = 3 shots in a 15 sec melee.

And this site states: http://www.historicalweapons.com/bowandarrow.html

"The best longbows were made of yew. The staves were cut in winter when no sap was running, from the junction of the inner heartwood and the outer sapwood. The staves were seasoned and worked on gradually over a period of three to four years. Today only six longbows survive, none from the "golden age" and sources do not agree on the dimensions. Most give the length as about 70in. with a drawing pull of 75-100lbs. The arrows were between 27-36in. long. A trained archer could shoot 12 arrows a minute, but some sources say that the most skilled archers could fire twice this number. The arrow could wound at 250 yards, kill at 100 yards and penetrate armor at 60 yards."

Using the doubled amount of arrows of a skilled archer of 24. That's 60sec/24 = 2.5sec per shot = 6 shots per melee round.

Hope this helps.

[GaredBattlespike]

We had a Campaign with a hot (PB:21) Elf Longbow-woman, and was she ever so deadly! She would be Prowling until showtime, then use the indirect nature of the weapon to "drop" MD explosive arrows OVER the walls of the CS Base! Nasty gal she was! Every Vampire we met had a very bad night with her around, she must have archery-staked 8 or 9 Vamps one night! We all protected our lil archer!