How big is the CS population and armed forces?

[flatline]

Since this seems to be a hotly debated subject, let's try to treat this analytically.

Let's start with collecting all the snippets from the various books that give numbers (or hints at numbers). Please don't argue whether or not the numbers make sense. It's okay to discuss the relevance of numbers (old numbers might be made obsolete by new numbers, for example).

The most recent numbers are probably from Aftermath (which I don't have). Anyone interested in looking for them and posting them? I've got CWC, but I think it's a good bet that anything in CWC is no longer accurate.

--flatline

[Nekira Sudacne]

Since this seems to be a hotly debated subject, let's try to treat this analytically.

Let's start with collecting all the snippets from the various books that give numbers (or hints at numbers). Please don't argue whether or not the numbers make sense. It's okay to discuss the relevance of numbers (old numbers might be made obsolete by new numbers, for example).

The most recent numbers are probably from Aftermath (which I don't have). Anyone interested in looking for them and posting them? I've got CWC, but I think it's a good bet that anything in CWC is no longer accurate.

--flatline

RUE came after aftermath has offical numbers of not only all the mega cities proper but also calls out large CS garrisons and bases. everything you need is right there.

The biggest change is Fort El Dorado has been offically accepted as a full member state, and the CS is busy bringing the city up to par by upgrading the fort into a mega city and moving in divisions to defend it. this increased the CS's population by 139,000 in one fell swoop, and in Illinois there is a dozen large cities within it each with a population of 150,000 to 240,000, and Chi-town itself has 2.2 million; and another full mega city is being built from the ground up, Waukegan, which will make it the first state with Two mega cities.

Amusing Note: the CS state of Iron Heart only has 1950's technology plus internet. Only the military is Modern, everyone else is kept low tech so they will be good factory workers for chi-town.

[Pepsi Jedi]

As per the military.

CWC Says that there are Millions of troops. Which to me says a minimum of 2 million, as 'millions' is plural. Some argue that in common parlance Millions could mean 'Anything over one million'.

MiF says that they've recently recruited another million troops since the outbreak of the minion war.

These numbers put the minimum number of troops at 3,000,000+ (Though some would argue 2,000,000+)

Those are nice round numbers and aren't dependent on "How many Samus are in storage" or anything like that.

[Killer Cyborg]

Since this seems to be a hotly debated subject, let's try to treat this analytically.

Let's start with collecting all the snippets from the various books that give numbers (or hints at numbers). Please don't argue whether or not the numbers make sense. It's okay to discuss the relevance of numbers (old numbers might be made obsolete by new numbers, for example).

The most recent numbers are probably from Aftermath (which I don't have). Anyone interested in looking for them and posting them? I've got CWC, but I think it's a good bet that anything in CWC is no longer accurate.

--flatline

viewtopic.php?p=2827874#p2827874

also, how many ofthose 'non-humans' are dogboys and psistalkers? and does the CS count master psychics as humans? all three of those factor into the military numbers, but might not be counted in the population as human.

SB1 tells us that Dog Boys make up 10% of the "overall population."
In the past, I've simply thought about it as "10% of 14 million is 1.4 million."
But that 14 million is the number of HUMANS, and it wouldn't make sense to say that the Dog Boys made up 10% of the human population.
So a more logical interpretation is that it's 10% of the entire population:
14 million humans
10 million "D-Bees, mutants, and other intelligent non-humans."

The "overall population" would be 24 million, so there would have been 2.4 million Dog Boys in the CS as of 102 PA, "and that number is growing by the day."

Psi-Stalkers and other psychics seem to be considered to be mutants:
SB1 12
Psionic mutants (and all other mutants are forbidden by law to engage in sexual activity with non-psionics/non-mutants

Psychic powers are considered a mutation

People considered psionic mutants include those with minor, major, and master psychic powers, mind melters, bursters, and psi-stalkers. Most of the latter work for the military.

SB1 13
In many respects, psychics and other mutants are second-class citizens...

The psychic population of the CS is listed as 12%, which would mean that of that 24 million overall population, 2.88 million of them would be psychics.
Technically, that could be considered to include the 2.4 million Dog Boys... BUT since Dog Boys are listed separately, and the Psychic Population section seems to be focused on mutants, I would assume that the 2.88 million psychics does not include the Dog Boys.

Which would mean that of the 10 million "D-Bees, mutants, and other intelligent non-humans," 2.4 million would be Dog Boys, and 2.88 million would be psychics.
So 5.28 million of the population would be Dog Boys and other psychics, and 4.72 million would be D-Bees, other mutants, etc.
I'd allow for the possibility (due to vagueness in wording) that some of that 4.72 million "other" might be D-Bees with psychic powers, but there's no way of knowing the percent.

Typing all of this out, I now lean toward assuming that the 14 million humans DOES include the human military, something that I wasn't sure about before.
But since we know that it's unlikely for there to be 2.4 million non-military Dog Boys running around in CS territory, I think it's safe to assume that their population numbers include both civilians and military as a rule.

I still allow for the possibility that the 14 million human population only counts citizens, though, because SB1 13 has the following passage:
D-Bees and Other Mutants
Population: Zero
The Coalition government and sanctioned businesses may hire D-Bees and mutants from time to time, but they are seen as worthless scum or pawns by their human superiors. They can never become citizens of the CS nor are they ever allowed within the city limits of a Coalition city or town. Their presence is barely tolerated in the Burbs.

The emphasis here seems to be that even though we KNOW there are 10 million D-Bees/Mutants/Whatever in the Coalition States, that the CS has an official population of ZERO for this category, due to the fact they cannot become Citizens, nor enter a CS city or town.
So on at least some of the population statistics, we know that they are only counting:
a) citizens
and/or
b) those who dwell in cities and towns.

viewtopic.php?p=2827901#p2827901

in 109 PA (post war SoT), RUE reports:
-Missouri: 225,000 citizens and 50,000 squatters (Not including 138,000 people in Whykin and another 112,000 people in Kingsdale)
-Arkansas/El Dorado: 139,000 in the fort and another 80,000 in the surrounding areas.
-Lone Star: 33,000 citizens and 9,000 dog boys in Lone Star City plus 1,800 "people" in Amarillo, 12,000 "people" in Wichita Falls, and 1300 "people" in Odessa.
-Iron Heart: 700,000 humans, 100,000 nonhumans, and 100,000 "squatters" (so I assume the humans are citizens).
Chi-Town: Iowa: 1.3 Million, Illinois: 2.2 million humans in Chi-Town, 3 million living in the slums and an unspecified number of cities with populations of 150,000 to 240,000 each and unspecified number of towns with 1000-2000 each.

So known numbers of human citizens, not counting squatters, according to RUE is only: 7,692,100. But it is actually higher than that because we have to assume there is at least one additional Chi-Town city with 150,000 one with 240,000 one town with 1000, and one town with 2000 which brings to total to at least 8,085,100, most likely higher but based on this information alone, impossible to calculate. The only mention of dog boys is 9,000, which we know is not accurate, but have nothing else to go off of from RUE alone. I see no mutant population listed at all, but we know they are there.

Free Quebec lists no population other than 60,000 in the ruins of Quebec City.

We can assume the SoT reduced these numbers from the 102 estimates, as well as the loss of Free Quebec which RUE says used to be the number two spot (which means FQ has a population of at least 700,001 humans since Iron Heart is the new number 2).

Rifts Aftermath lists the Chi-Town cities at 200,000-300,000 each and the surrounding burbs of ChiTown proper at 4 million. But otherwise what numbers it does list, they are all about the same as RUE.

viewtopic.php?p=2827929#p2827929

We can assume the SoT reduced these numbers from the 102 estimates, as well as the loss of Free Quebec which RUE says used to be the number two spot (which means FQ has a population of at least 700,001 humans since Iron Heart is the new number 2).

I'm not even sure we should assume it has been reduced. The majority of CS deaths in SoT were probably new recruits from the Burbs not even considered part of the CS population, and in their sacrifice they may well have won citizenship for members of their family, which could end up boosting the population with a new crop of avenge-my-parents soldiers.

The FQ loss could be compensated for by the gaining of multiple new states since 102, if I recall.

viewtopic.php?p=2812308#p2812308

I guess the favouritism seems to come from suddenly being able to acquire, field and train a million soldiers. Suddenly the wilds of Rifts Earth and/or the CS burbs suddenly have a million people ready to fight. That's favouritism right there IMO.

Why are you using the word "sudden"...?

RMB 140
The Coalition State of Chi-Town encompasses Northern Illinois and all of Iowa.... Tiny farm communities can be found every 50 miles or so...Only the occasional military base breaks the peace and beauty of this simple country... Estimated population is 1.3 million.

The Illinois portion of the Chi-Town State is the undisputed hub of North American civilization. Hundreds of small towns and villages dot the land around a dozen large cities (each city has an average population of approximately 200,000 citizens).

Chi-Town, the city itself... boasts a strictly human population of two million, with an additional three million living in the slums, known as "The Burbs."

What we're looking at in the state of Chi-Town alone is:
1.3 million people in small farming communities
Another 2.4 million people living in the large cities.
Another 2 million people in the city of Chi-Town
Another three million living in the Chi-Town Burbs.

If the CS recruited 1/3 of the Chi-Town Burbs, that's a million men right there.
That's not out of nowhere.
If they recruited 20% of the Chi-Town Burbs, that's 300k men.
If they recruited 15% of the farm community, that's another 205k.
If they recruited 15% of the city boys, that's another 360k.
So that's about 865k right there, just from one CS state, just from the original numbers in the main book (which don't include any of the alliances and territories gained SINCE 100 PA).

Yeah, they could have gone into more detail about the logistics and details of recruiting that many people, but I think it's safe to say that Palladium assumed that we wouldn't be interested in reading detailed logistic reports on the recruitment methods of an imaginary civilization.

On the other side of things, Tolkeen likewise got a big troop surge of volunteers.
Plus they got all the new toys and magical abilities from the FoM book, PLUS all kinds of zany stuff like the Triangular Rift Defense stuff.
So if recruiting a million-man army seems "out of nowhere," I guess I can kind of see that... but only if the same standard is applied to all the "out of nowhere" stuff that the CS enemies got.
Worst case scenario, it's bad writing, but it's NOT favoritism because it happens to all factions.

That's all I can find for right now, from old threads.

[Dog_O_War]

KC, I just want to point out that in your one post there, you're talking about a 10% dogboy population, but then you get into so weird math.

If it states that dogboys make up 10% of an overall population, then dogboys represent 10% of the population as a whole.

That is, if there were 14 million total people in a population, then there would be 1.4 million dogboys and 12.6 million humans, not 14 million humans.

That's why the overall population is 14 million (or whatever the actual number is). Of which, dogboys represent 10% of it.

[flatline]

As per the military.

CWC Says that there are Millions of troops. Which to me says a minimum of 2 million, as 'millions' is plural. Some argue that in common parlance Millions could mean 'Anything over one million'.

MiF says that they've recently recruited another million troops since the outbreak of the minion war.

These numbers put the minimum number of troops at 3,000,000+ (Though some would argue 2,000,000+)

Those are nice round numbers and aren't dependent on "How many Samus are in storage" or anything like that.

The time line has advanced since CWC. Do any newer books offer numbers that would replace the CWC numbers? If so, perhaps we'll get lucky and the newer figure/hint will be less ambiguous.

I don't have it with me, but when flipping through CWC last night, I noticed a passage that pretty unambiguously stated that 10% of the CS population was in the military. If that ratio has been preserved as the time line advanced, then we could use the RUE population numbers that Nekira Sudacne provided in the second post to get a ball park idea of how populous the CS military is.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

KC, I just want to point out that in your one post there, you're talking about a 10% dogboy population, but then you get into so weird math.

If it states that dogboys make up 10% of an overall population, then dogboys represent 10% of the population as a whole.

Yes.

That is, if there were 14 million total people in a population, then there would be 1.4 million dogboys and 12.6 million humans, not 14 million humans.

That's why the overall population is 14 million (or whatever the actual number is). Of which, dogboys represent 10% of it.

The human citizen population is 14 million.
The non-human population is 10 million.
That's a total population of 24 million.
14 million + 10 million = 24 million.
10% of 24 million is 2.4 million.

[Pepsi Jedi]

As per the military.

CWC Says that there are Millions of troops. Which to me says a minimum of 2 million, as 'millions' is plural. Some argue that in common parlance Millions could mean 'Anything over one million'.

MiF says that they've recently recruited another million troops since the outbreak of the minion war.

These numbers put the minimum number of troops at 3,000,000+ (Though some would argue 2,000,000+)

Those are nice round numbers and aren't dependent on "How many Samus are in storage" or anything like that.

The time line has advanced since CWC. Do any newer books offer numbers that would replace the CWC numbers? If so, perhaps we'll get lucky and the newer figure/hint will be less ambiguous.

I don't have it with me, but when flipping through CWC last night, I noticed a passage that pretty unambiguously stated that 10% of the CS population was in the military. If that ratio has been preserved as the time line advanced, then we could use the RUE population numbers that Nekira Sudacne provided in the second post to get a ball park idea of how populous the CS military is.

--flatline

After the SoT books we're told that the CS military recruited heavily for the Tolkeen war with promises of citizenship and what not as a reward for service. At the end we're told that even with the heavy CS losses, that they 'broke even' as to numbers before the war. What they 'lost' was 'made up' by the huge recruiting surge of troops (Non CS population as a note. I.E From the burbs and what not) So even though they lost a good number of guys, they'd recruited so many that in the end they stood at roughly pre war strength (Instead of the inflated numbers they had 'during' the war.) Also, the survivors might even be in a better position, because those that did survive are now battle tested and hardened. ((I.E. Not 1st lvl recruits but guys that were in a years long war, so on up in exp)

So as of the end of the tolkeen war, the CS numbers were roughly equal to prior to the war, where it was listed as having 'Millions of troops"

Then, as per the next big event an time line moving forward, MiF, we have the CS recruiting another million to add on top of it.

So again we swing back to the 2,000,000, to 3,000,000 minimum for CS troops. (Also of note, as the number was 'Millions" + 1 million, it could exceed 3,000,000. "Millions' may have meant 4... 5.. 6 million troops. I don't think so but it's possible We can only estimate the minimum number. Which, depends on your definition of the term "Millions of troops" Plus the million from the later book.

[Lenwen]

Its the whole .. 3 million living in the slums aspect .. that gets me. They are in fact "NOT COALITION CITIZENS" .. yet all people who favor the CS logistic's want to include them as already cs citizens for attempted numbering of the CS military overall..

Thats a folly in an of itself .. they are not citizens by any book .. Unless some one can cite, that ALL slums populations are in fact Coalition citizens I'd gladly state I am in fact wrong. Til then you can not include them in the overall numbering of the CS military soldering numbers.

[ShadowLogan]

CWC on pg42 "-nothing compared to the nearly one million Coalition soldiers ready for combat (and according to some reports, as many as another half million in the process of training)!" This is pre-SoT, so if the CS maganed to come out roughly even as a result of SoT/FQ wars, and getting another million troops for MiF at best that gives the CS ~2.5million troops.

[Pepsi Jedi]

CWC on pg42 "-nothing compared to the nearly one million Coalition soldiers ready for combat (and according to some reports, as many as another half million in the process of training)!" This is pre-SoT, so if the CS maganed to come out roughly even as a result of SoT/FQ wars, and getting another million troops for MiF at best that gives the CS ~2.5million troops.

It should be noted that "soldiers ready for combat" and "Troops in the military" are not necessarily the same thing. It's discounting the read echelon types, and support corps. Modern military's need 2-7+ non combatants for every front line troop. It's hard to say if the advanced military would need more or less. Both sides could be argued. That they'd need more to upkeep the high tech gear and supply chains. Or less due to MDC materials being used, stuff just doesn't break or need maintenance like our modern stuff does.

CWC States on page 88 "The strength of Coalition forces comes not only from their powerful war machines and high technology, but from the spirit and commitment of its millions of fierce, fanatical soldiers and brilliant officers who embody the fighting spirit of the Coalition States."

Either way. They have quite a large number of boys and girls in black, ready to put boot to ass.

[Aaryq]

Just out of curiosity, are the Skelebots included in these numbers? If not, how many skelebots are in the CS inventory? Also, though there's no canon to back it up, what do you use for CS Soldier (human/psi-stalker/psi-hound) to skelebot ratio?

[Killer Cyborg]

CWC on pg42 "-nothing compared to the nearly one million Coalition soldiers ready for combat (and according to some reports, as many as another half million in the process of training)!" This is pre-SoT, so if the CS maganed to come out roughly even as a result of SoT/FQ wars, and getting another million troops for MiF at best that gives the CS ~2.5million troops.

"Ready for war" is not the same as "trained an on duty."

[Lenwen]

CWC on pg42 "-nothing compared to the nearly one million Coalition soldiers ready for combat (and according to some reports, as many as another half million in the process of training)!" This is pre-SoT, so if the CS maganed to come out roughly even as a result of SoT/FQ wars, and getting another million troops for MiF at best that gives the CS ~2.5million troops.

I completely agree with this I it is 100% completely backed by the books.

[Killer Cyborg]

Its the whole .. 3 million living in the slums aspect .. that gets me. They are in fact "NOT COALITION CITIZENS" ..

Source?

[Killer Cyborg]

CWC on pg42 "-nothing compared to the nearly one million Coalition soldiers ready for combat (and according to some reports, as many as another half million in the process of training)!" This is pre-SoT, so if the CS maganed to come out roughly even as a result of SoT/FQ wars, and getting another million troops for MiF at best that gives the CS ~2.5million troops.

I completely agree with this I it is 100% completely backed by the books.

Except...
1. It doesn't explain why the CS has a maximum of 8 SAMAS out of 96 soldiers in a standard company, a ratio which would mean that they only use about 83,333 SAMAS... but they had 3.2 million old-style SAMAS put into semi-retirement when the new ones came out.
They just thought that they might need about 3,116,667 spare SAMAS sitting around, just in case every single soldier in their army needed 2-3 suits?

2. "Ready for War" doesn't mean "total serving in the military."

3. Again, there were about 2.4 million Dog Pack soldiers in 101 PA, and growing.

4. It doesn't explain the mention that Pepsi keeps pointing out, that the CS has millions of soldiers.

[Lenwen]

KC, I just want to point out that in your one post there, you're talking about a 10% dogboy population, but then you get into so weird math.

If it states that dogboys make up 10% of an overall population, then dogboys represent 10% of the population as a whole.

Yes.

That is, if there were 14 million total people in a population, then there would be 1.4 million dogboys and 12.6 million humans, not 14 million humans.

That's why the overall population is 14 million (or whatever the actual number is). Of which, dogboys represent 10% of it.

The human citizen population is 14 million.
The non-human population is 10 million.
That's a total population of 24 million.
14 million + 10 million = 24 million.
10% of 24 million is 2.4 million.

Yet .. Rue does not share your guys estimation of this...

As per Rue, Dogboys have been in service (thats all types they have ever been utilized for) for 40 years. Thats 480 months.

Lonestar is thee only place that dogboys are created. And its a vast factory-like complex capable of creating hundreds of mutant animals a month. (take note, thats mutant animals entotal, not just dogboys)

So time for math..

480 months times (as per online dictionary's definition of "hundreds" low number) 100 we get 48,000 total (Low number of Dogboys ever created by the Coalition)

480 months times (as per online dictionary's definition of "hundreds" high number) 999, we get 479,520 (max number of dogboys ever created by the coalition)

Even at absolute MAX creation of dogboys, not only do you fall short of the 10% of overall population numbers, you fall VASTLY .. short of that number by almost 2 million dogboys.

And .. bere in mind that is if you are producing at MAX capacity for thee entire duration that dogboys started their service to the CS (40 yrs ago) and not creating not 1 single other type of mutant animal what so ever in the history of dogboy creation.

If we take ShadowLogan's information via his post about 2.5 million troops right now, and place the 10% of troop's population as the Keystone of dogboy's population from the book..

"10% of the population is dogboys"

10% of 2.5 million is in fact 250,000.

The lowest possible number of creating dogboys (in 40 yrs) and not 1 single type of other mutant animal is 48,000 dogboys ever created.

The highest possible number of creating dogboys (in 40 yrs) and not 1 single type of other mutant animal is 479,520 dogboys ever created.

If we stick to the book and its "10% of the population is dogboys" quote, and we place the "population" as being the military, and we utilize book backed numbers from ShadowLogan, we come up with 250,000 Dogboys.

This 250,000 dogboys number fits absolutely EVERY Criteria we are trying to satisfy. And it is in fact, well within the overall capability of creation within 40 yrs, as well as still enabling the coalition to create "mutants" of various types ..

What say you guys ?

[Lenwen]

Its the whole .. 3 million living in the slums aspect .. that gets me. They are in fact "NOT COALITION CITIZENS" ..

Source?

The Illinois portion: Chi-Town currently boasts a strictly human population of 2.2 million. with an additiona 3 million living in the slums, known as "The Burbs"

[Killer Cyborg]

Its the whole .. 3 million living in the slums aspect .. that gets me. They are in fact "NOT COALITION CITIZENS" ..

Source?

The Illinois portion: Chi-Town currently boasts a strictly human population of 2.2 million. with an additiona 3 million living in the slums, known as "The Burbs"

That doesn't say anything about whether they're citizens or not.

[Lenwen]

Its the whole .. 3 million living in the slums aspect .. that gets me. They are in fact "NOT COALITION CITIZENS" ..

Source?

The Illinois portion: Chi-Town currently boasts a strictly human population of 2.2 million. with an additiona 3 million living in the slums, known as "The Burbs"

That doesn't say anything about whether they're citizens or not.

To be fair, I had thought you asked me for verification of numbers. But to show canon sourced material about them not being citizens here you go .

Burbs are not a legal entity, each considered an illigal community of squatters, with out any claim to the land they inhibit or any of the normal rights enjoyed by the average CS citizens all around them

[flatline]

Its the whole .. 3 million living in the slums aspect .. that gets me. They are in fact "NOT COALITION CITIZENS" ..

Source?

CWC p197: "1. The inhabitants of the Burbs are not citizens of the allied States."

Emphasis theirs, not mine (although they used italics instead of bold).

Lenwen is correct unless a more recent book has changed that policy.

--flatline

[jaymz]

Simple answer - the population is whatever the heck you want it to be based on teh vague numbers and estimates given in the books.

[Killer Cyborg]

Its the whole .. 3 million living in the slums aspect .. that gets me. They are in fact "NOT COALITION CITIZENS" ..

Source?

The Illinois portion: Chi-Town currently boasts a strictly human population of 2.2 million. with an additiona 3 million living in the slums, known as "The Burbs"

That doesn't say anything about whether they're citizens or not.

To be fair, I had thought you asked me for verification of numbers. But to show canon sourced material about them not being citizens here you go .

Burbs are not a legal entity, each considered an illigal community of squatters, with out any claim to the land they inhibit or any of the normal rights enjoyed by the average CS citizens all around them

Excellent book to look in for information!

I'd forgotten that it existed, actually.

The passage you cite here still isn't 100%, though, because:
a) legal citizens of a nation can still be part of an illegal community of squatters
b) Squatters might not be the "average" CS citizen, but it doesn't exclude them being citizens at all.
c) The reference to "the average CS citizens all around [the denizens of the Burbs]" because I'm not sure what Citizens are "all around" the Burb residents.
Those inside the cities, of course... but the burbs are more "around the cities" than vice-versa.
It's oddly worded, but my initial impression is that it's a weird way of saying that some of the people in the burbs are citizens, and some are not.

I'll look through my copy of that book, and see what further information I can find.

[Killer Cyborg]

Its the whole .. 3 million living in the slums aspect .. that gets me. They are in fact "NOT COALITION CITIZENS" ..

Source?

CWC p197: "1. The inhabitants of the Burbs are not citizens of the allied States."

Emphasis theirs, not mine (although they used italics instead of bold).

Lenwen is correct unless a more recent book has changed that policy.

--flatline

Excellent citation!

I'll let you know if I find anything contrary to that in the Chi-Town Burbs adventure sourcebook.

[Killer Cyborg]

Same page that Lenwen cited, the pieces of the puzzle click into place:

What this means is that those who choose to live in the Burbs have no rights. None. Those born in the rural and wilderness areas of the Coalition States are born with the rights of CS citizenship, but they also give up those rights if they move to the Burbs, becoming a nebulous nonentity for the promise of a better life in the fortress city. Normally, any human born within the lands claimed by the CS are presumed to be citizens and expected to accept the Emperor as their leader and the Coalition Government as the law of the land. Those who do not are considered traitorous rabble, barbarians, or rebellious malcontents and dealt with accordingly. The people living in the Burbs are neither citizens or malcontents, for they desire to live in the CS but in a fortified city. To get that special, elite living environment, they accept the nonexistent limbo that is the burbs where they have no value or rights in the eyes of the Coalition Government until they are accepted as a citizen of the fortress city or leave the Burbs to find citizenship in one of the other (non-walled) CS cities, towns, or rural communities.

And, on the next page, an even clearer reiteration of Flatline's succinct citation:
the inhabitants of the Burbs are not CS citizens."

Of course, also on p. 10 is the mention that the CS military "attracts thousands of new recruits with the implied promise that anyone who serves in the military will earn themselves and their immediate family special consideration for citizenship in the city, as well as get them moved to the top of the waiting list."
And the note that "this practice gets them thousands of volunteers joining the CS annually."
Which means that citizens or not, they can and do serve in the CS military.

[Killer Cyborg]

The human citizen population is 14 million.
The non-human population is 10 million.
That's a total population of 24 million.
14 million + 10 million = 24 million.
10% of 24 million is 2.4 million.

Yet .. Rue does not share your guys estimation of this...

As per Rue, Dogboys have been in service (thats all types they have ever been utilized for) for 40 years. Thats 480 months.

Lonestar is thee only place that dogboys are created.

IIRC, they can also breed.

This 250,000 dogboys number fits absolutely EVERY Criteria we are trying to satisfy.

Except that it's contradicted by SB1's numbers, and it's conjecture.
Hard numbers trump conjecture.

[Killer Cyborg]

Just out of curiosity, are the Skelebots included in these numbers? If not, how many skelebots are in the CS inventory? Also, though there's no canon to back it up, what do you use for CS Soldier (human/psi-stalker/psi-hound) to skelebot ratio?

IIRC, they lost something like a million skelebots in the SoT alone.

Not sure about the total skelebot numbers after the Tolkeen War, but IIRC there have been threads where we've talked about them.
You might be able to find something using the Search function to sift old conversations.

[Lenwen]

The human citizen population is 14 million.
The non-human population is 10 million.
That's a total population of 24 million.
14 million + 10 million = 24 million.
10% of 24 million is 2.4 million.

Yet .. Rue does not share your guys estimation of this...

As per Rue, Dogboys have been in service (thats all types they have ever been utilized for) for 40 years. Thats 480 months.

Lonestar is thee only place that dogboys are created.

IIRC, they can also breed.

This 250,000 dogboys number fits absolutely EVERY Criteria we are trying to satisfy.

Except that it's contradicted by SB1's numbers, and it's conjecture.
Hard numbers trump conjecture.

I was hoping you would bring this part up specifically =P

That includes every way the entire coalition states creates (or breeds) the creation there of, any and all dogboys ever created.

Here, we can look at the facts.

- 70% of all dogboys created (either by breeding or tube creation) are males.
- 30% are females.
- 50% of those females are breeders.
- 10% are lab grown.


What does this mean ? We can then take those hardlined numbers into detail to determine a high / low number of creation per month dog boys. Hundreds are created per month. (Thats total mutant animals, that is not "only" dogboys, but the creation of ALL mutant animal types.)

Online definition of "Hundreds" is anything from 100-999.

So, we again go back to the math I already presented in my previous posts, to then verify.. at the LEAST .. Genetically created "Tube dogs" as I call them hehe we then see 100 created new dogboys, 70 male, 30 female, 15 of the female are now going to be designated breeders, and 10 dogboys are created via Lab grown. Bringing the total to 100 dogboys created.

The high for this would be 999 dog boys created ..
- 699 male
- 300 female.
- 150 are breeders.
- 10% of the overall number of 999 are created via tubes .. Which translates into 99 tube created out of 999 dogboys.

[Lenwen]

This 250,000 dogboys number fits absolutely EVERY Criteria we are trying to satisfy.

Except that it's contradicted by SB1's numbers, and it's conjecture.
Hard numbers trump conjecture.

Dogboys have been in service for a total of 40 years. 12 months a year, 40 years = 480 months total time they have been in absolutely any type of service in the Coalition.

Hundreds is described as anything from 100 up to 999.

480 months times 999 = 479,520 total dogboys ever created (breeding or genetically created via labs).

Those are hard fact RUE based numbers. They are not conjecture. This is thee most according to Rue HARD numbers that is canonically possible to have ever been created in total by the coalition states in all of the dogboys existence.

Dog packs have been a part of the Coalition Army and police force and city defense for nearly 40 years

Ok so I was generous giving them 40 full years of total service.

a vast factory-like complex capable of creating hundreds of mutant animals a month

This is the direct quote that shows "hundreds" can be created per month.

Taken together the numbers are given to us. (albiet) I was overly generous as I gave them a full 40 years, and not what was "nearly 40 years" as well as giving then 999 mutant animals that are all 100% dogboys, (which again, thats impossible given the cited information via Rue..) Which show's I was actually overplaying the numbers as given by Rue ..

[Killer Cyborg]

>shrug<

10% of 24 million is still 2.4 million.

[Svartalf]

Its the whole .. 3 million living in the slums aspect .. that gets me. They are in fact "NOT COALITION CITIZENS" ..

Source?

The Illinois portion: Chi-Town currently boasts a strictly human population of 2.2 million. with an additiona 3 million living in the slums, known as "The Burbs"

That doesn't say anything about whether they're citizens or not.

Since when are burb dwellers citizens? if they were, they'd be in the city, not around it.

[Killer Cyborg]

Its the whole .. 3 million living in the slums aspect .. that gets me. They are in fact "NOT COALITION CITIZENS" ..

Source?

The Illinois portion: Chi-Town currently boasts a strictly human population of 2.2 million. with an additiona 3 million living in the slums, known as "The Burbs"

That doesn't say anything about whether they're citizens or not.

Since when are burb dwellers citizens? if they were, they'd be in the city, not around it.

I was wondering if that was specified anywhere. It IS, but it seemed odd that people living in CS territory would be citizens of the CS, but that there would be an exclusionary rule for the Burbs.
Like, if you're born in one of the non-walled cities, the only real application process we know of to get into a walled city appears to be to move to the Burbs, renouncing citizenship of the CS, then wait and hope that you get to be a citizen of that city in order to regain your citizenship in the CS.
Which seems messed up.

[Nekira Sudacne]

The Illinois portion: Chi-Town currently boasts a strictly human population of 2.2 million. with an additiona 3 million living in the slums, known as "The Burbs"

That doesn't say anything about whether they're citizens or not.

Since when are burb dwellers citizens? if they were, they'd be in the city, not around it.

I was wondering if that was specified anywhere. It IS, but it seemed odd that people living in CS territory would be citizens of the CS, but that there would be an exclusionary rule for the Burbs.
Like, if you're born in one of the non-walled cities, the only real application process we know of to get into a walled city appears to be to move to the Burbs, renouncing citizenship of the CS, then wait and hope that you get to be a citizen of that city in order to regain your citizenship in the CS.
Which seems messed up.

It's in RUE on page 28. it littearlly says "The burbs are a weird political null-zone"

[Pepsi Jedi]

Its the whole .. 3 million living in the slums aspect .. that gets me. They are in fact "NOT COALITION CITIZENS" ..

Source?

The Illinois portion: Chi-Town currently boasts a strictly human population of 2.2 million. with an additiona 3 million living in the slums, known as "The Burbs"

That doesn't say anything about whether they're citizens or not.

Since when are burb dwellers citizens? if they were, they'd be in the city, not around it.

Not being in a megacity doesn't mean you're not a Citizen.

That said, Burbs dweller's are not citizens. They're residents.

[Svartalf]

and as "residents not citizens" they are not part of CS census statistics, if indeed they are part of ANY statistics.

[Killer Cyborg]

and as "residents not citizens" they are not part of CS census statistics, if indeed they are part of ANY statistics.

I don't remember which book covers the specifics of CS census-taking parameters.

[Mack]

Another tidbit for the size of the CS Military:

An estimated 405,000 CS troops died and over 1.4 million were injured during the course of the war, and that does not include Dog Boys or hired mercenaries which would easily put the number near 600,000.

I won't speculate on a specific number, but think about how massive the overall military must be in order to absorb those kind of casualties and still be functional.

[Pepsi Jedi]

and as "residents not citizens" they are not part of CS census statistics, if indeed they are part of ANY statistics.

I agree. They're not counted as citizens and thus are not on the CS's rolls. Though, they might keep a bit of an eye on rough numbers of people in the burbs. Not to count them as citizens, but just to keep an eye on them so the numbers don't get too large. I mean there's bunches of DBees in the burbs and the CS doesn't snipe each and every one of them. They do roll out now and then and destroy sections of the burbs, but the way it's written, the people that live there scatter around to the 'other' burbs that aren't destoryed. Heck there's art showing 10 and 20 story buildings in the Old Town Burbs.

[Killer Cyborg]

and as "residents not citizens" they are not part of CS census statistics, if indeed they are part of ANY statistics.

I agree. They're not counted as citizens and thus are not on the CS's rolls. Though, they might keep a bit of an eye on rough numbers of people in the burbs. Not to count them as citizens, but just to keep an eye on them so the numbers don't get too large. I mean there's bunches of DBees in the burbs and the CS doesn't snipe each and every one of them. They do roll out now and then and destroy sections of the burbs, but the way it's written, the people that live there scatter around to the 'other' burbs that aren't destoryed. Heck there's art showing 10 and 20 story buildings in the Old Town Burbs.

I still don't know why we're talking about the CS census.
I mean, according to the CS, the Coalition States have a population of ZERO D-Bees and mutants.
So… I don't think that CS-created census data is going to shed light on the actual population, which I believe was the topic of conversation, NOT the in-game perception of things from one perspective.

[Mack]

Found another reference point:

Roughly 4% of the CS Armed Forces possess psionic abilities, which means psychics number into the tens of thousands.

{Note - This 4% figure does NOT include Psi-Stalkers or Dog Boys.}

So if we use the smallest definition of "tens of thousands" (20,000 exactly) then the overall number of 'human' troops would be 500,000.
A more reasonable definition (let's say 50,000) gives an overall 'human' troop level of 1,250,000.
A generous definition (100,000) gives a 'human' troop level of 2,500,000.

[Nox Equites]

I could have sworn that there is an additional dog boy lab in Chi-town so you have two sources of lab grown dog boys. If memory serves the Chi-town lab is smaller than the Lone Star facility sort of like how the skelebot plant in Lone Star is much smaller than the main plant in Chi-town.

[Tor]

It should be noted that "soldiers ready for combat" and "Troops in the military" are not necessarily the same thing. It's discounting the read echelon types, and support corps.

True, not to mention soldiers on vacation, soldiers recovering from injuries but who might be okay in a week.

Heck depending on how broad, "ready for combat" might mean "awake and on duty" and exclude those who are asleep or off-duty eating lunch, possibly tripling the number when considernig overall troops.

They just thought that they might need about 3,116,667 spare SAMAS sitting around, just in case every single soldier in their army needed 2-3 suits?

Far as I'm concerned if you wanted to avoid your PA getting wrecked and couldn't field-repair them, it might pay to have 10 suits per person so you could keep up to 9 out getting repaired, not knowing how long it takes to get them up to snuff depending on infrastructure.

If CS had the sense to steal Naruni FF tech this would be less of an issue since then their PA could have per-melee MDC restoration and only need to be sent out for repairs when something bypasses it. Or if they allowed Vanguard-supplied TW repair guns to be used in the field. Mend-The-Broken Talismans would be a lifesaver as well.

[Killer Cyborg]

Do you imagine that the USAF has 10 jets per pilot?
Or helicopters?
Or even that the military has 10 jeeps for every soldier who is trained to drive a jeep?

[flatline]

Do you imagine that the USAF has 10 jets per pilot?
Or helicopters?
Or even that the military has 10 jeeps for every soldier who is trained to drive a jeep?

Our world is very different from Rifts Earth.

If SAMAS take frequent damage and it typically takes longer to repair a SAMAS than the amount of downtime between missions/patrols/whatever, then having a rotation would make perfect sense. The ratio of SAMAS to pilots would depend entirely on the ratio of expected repair time to pilot downtime.

If a pilot is expected to patrol daily and it typically takes 3 days to repair a suit after a patrol, having 3 or more suits per pilot is perfectly reasonable.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

Do you imagine that the USAF has 10 jets per pilot?
Or helicopters?
Or even that the military has 10 jeeps for every soldier who is trained to drive a jeep?

Our world is very different from Rifts Earth.

It sounds like you're saying something to the effect of, "No, in the real world it would be just plain silly to expect there to be 10 vehicles for every trained pilot, and it wouldn't really make much sense."

If SAMAS take frequent damage and it typically takes longer to repair a SAMAS than the amount of downtime between missions/patrols/whatever, then having a rotation would make perfect sense. The ratio of SAMAS to pilots would depend entirely on the ratio of expected repair time to pilot downtime.

IF and IF.
And no, I still don't think it'd make perfect sense to have a huge surplus of millions of spare vehicles that cost 1.6 million credits each (blackmarket prices, but it indicates there's a decent cost to produce them).

If a pilot is expected to patrol daily and it typically takes 3 days to repair a suit after a patrol, having 3 or more suits per pilot is perfectly reasonable.
--flatline

And if NOT, and NOT....?

[jaymz]

That is also assuming every time they go out on patrol they come back damaged and in need of repair and service. These are not like present day vehicles. Parts don't wear out like they do now.

[flatline]

Do you imagine that the USAF has 10 jets per pilot?
Or helicopters?
Or even that the military has 10 jeeps for every soldier who is trained to drive a jeep?

Our world is very different from Rifts Earth.

It sounds like you're saying something to the effect of, "No, in the real world it would be just plain silly to expect there to be 10 vehicles for every trained pilot, and it wouldn't really make much sense."

If SAMAS take frequent damage and it typically takes longer to repair a SAMAS than the amount of downtime between missions/patrols/whatever, then having a rotation would make perfect sense. The ratio of SAMAS to pilots would depend entirely on the ratio of expected repair time to pilot downtime.

IF and IF.
And no, I still don't think it'd make perfect sense to have a huge surplus of millions of spare vehicles that cost 1.6 million credits each (blackmarket prices, but it indicates there's a decent cost to produce them).

If a pilot is expected to patrol daily and it typically takes 3 days to repair a suit after a patrol, having 3 or more suits per pilot is perfectly reasonable.
--flatline

And if NOT, and NOT....?

And if not, then the conclusion does not necessarily follow (although it might still be true). That's how the if-then construct works.

But you already know that and your response was meant rhetorically, right?

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

Just seems like I'm coming from an Occam's Razor, "Obvious Implication Is Obvious" type of stance, and people are responding with a kind of "Nope! Because I can come up with some unusual, un-indicated scenario that might explain how an un-indicated alternative scenario might be possible" kind of stance.
Basically, people seem to be arguing that the likely isn't likely because the implausible is technically possible.

I haven't seen anybody proposing alternatives say anything along the lines of, "Well, yeah, if they have 3.6 million SAMAS, they probably DO have millions of pilots alone, not counting the grunts, BUT it's theoretically possible that things aren't as they appear…"
With a reluctance or resistance to admitting that MAYBE old KC has a point that an army with over 3 million vehicles probably has the men to use that many vehicles.
It's all just kind of comes off as "Nope. It doesn't even make any sense for any army to have more pilots than vehicles."

So if that's not where you're coming from, then I'll be happy to re-examine the conversation.

[flatline]

I, personally, don't care what the canon numbers are. I don't now and never have run a canon setting.

However, I believe the resistance comes from the fact that your suggested interpretation is hard to integrate with the other numbers presented. And it's quite natural when an interpretation seems inconsistent to look for reasons to change or reject it.

Combining your interpretation with other tidbits found in the books yields some pretty crazy numbers. For example, if 10% of the CS population is military and 10% of a division of troops is power armor and there are 3.2M PA pilots (one for each stockpiled SAMAS), then the CS population is at least 320M...and this assumes that 100% of the military is combat troops (if you assume less, then the implied population gets even bigger!!!).

Is that conclusion consistent with what we've been told?

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

IS 10% of a division power armor?

Edit: And can you quote the passage that states that 10% of the population is in the military? I'd look it up, but I loaned CWC out to a friend.)