Spirit Fox Mystic Study skills

drewkitty ~..~ · Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:46 pm

If you were making a Spirit Fox that was a Mystic Study, how would you handle the skills?
Would you make a SF then layer on the MS skills (w/o a ed roll)?
Would you make a strait up MS w/o any SF racial skills?
---------------

Another question: Would you let such a SFMS take a magical proficiency (like the ones presented in the Through the Glass Darkly book)?

Daniel Stoker · Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:57 pm

Wait, where is the Spirit Fox from?

Daniel Stoker

drewkitty ~..~ · Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:15 pm

Mystic China

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:38 pm

Daniel Stoker wrote:Wait, where is the Spirit Fox from?

Daniel Stoker

They're listed as the Fox Spirit RCC starting on page 54 of Mystic China.

Given they're listed as having no PPE due to being creatures of pure Chi a Spirit Fox couldn't become anything for which having PPE, like spell-casting, is a requirement. They're also too other-worldly to do the kind of intensive study that would allow them to become a mystic study.

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:50 pm

I would ignore the RCC skills and only give it the Mystic Study skills - but make the RCC skills available as choices for the Mystic Study skill selections.

I'm not sure how I'd feel about the Magic Proficiency, but if you've already allowed a fox spirit to become a standard Western invocation mage, and the Sorcerous Proficiencies are "on the table" for mages in your game, then why not?

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:52 pm

Glistam wrote:I would ignore the RCC skills and only give it the Mystic Study skills - but make the RCC skills available as choices for the Mystic Study skill selections.

I'm not sure how I'd feel about the Magic Proficiency, but if you've already allowed a fox spirit to become a standard Western invocation mage, and the Sorcerous Proficiencies are "on the table" for mages in your game, then why not?

I wonder how one does that given they explicitly have no PPE, only Chi. They're one of the few races in the multiverse that literally comes without PPE and the other notable one from Phase World cannot ever become any kind of spellcaster.

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:58 pm

The Mystic Study power category provides the P.P.E.. Obviously this Fox Spirit is not your average Joe.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:18 pm

Glistam wrote:The Mystic Study power category provides the P.P.E.. Obviously this Fox Spirit is not your average Joe.

Except it can't, they're creatures of pure Chi, they don't have PPE. Mystic study can't give them PPE anymore than it can any other race that doesn't have and can't have PPE or work magic.

drewkitty ~..~ · Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:46 pm

The Infernal Demons (another type of chi entity), same book page 143, come w/o PPE ether but can gather/horde PPE.

But the skills is what I was asking about.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:56 pm

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The Infernal Demons, same book page 143, come w/o PPE ether but can gather/horde PPE.

Not really relevant, Infernal Demons are completely unrelated to Fox Spirits and given a specific notation has to be made for the ID the standard would be that FS and other pure chi creatures don't have PPE and can't acquire or hoard it from other places. The ID doesn't give one reason to believe it could learn or cast spells either, as a demon its hoarding of PPE is likely as a way of tempting Wu Shih with offers of vast amounts of PPE that they've been collecting for the occasion. So while it can't use it directly it can use it as a sweet candy lure to spell-casters.

Daniel Stoker · Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:14 pm

I don't know if you should even be able to allow them to take a class like Mystic Study as they look to have been meant to be a self enclosed R.C.C..

Daniel Stoker

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:04 am

The background write-up for this character sounds like it could be very interesting.

drewkitty ~..~ · Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:38 pm

Mephisto wrote:
Daniel Stoker wrote:I don't know if you should even be able to allow them to take a class like Mystic Study as they look to have been meant to be a self enclosed R.C.C..

Daniel Stoker

Since they can't even read or write, I don't know how they'd expect to even be able to learn invocation magic...

If you follow the basic HU ed rules, all chars get the four basic skills of Nat Lang. Nat Lit, basic math and pilot auto. The Nat Lang/Lit in a SF would be Chinese for the most part.

--------
SF are not forbidden from learning a Lit.
They just do not get a Lit as a part of their Racial Skills standard set, and there is no carry over of their learning Languages bonuses to learning Lit's.

Even just using what is in the MC book, they can still get a Lit as a secondary skill.

Daniel Stoker · Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:27 pm

They're still looking more like a self enclosed R.C.C. though and I do it short of just 'porting' them over as an immortal ala PU2 and then have their natural abilities count as their super powers for the Magic/Super Powers power selection.

Daniel Stoker

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:41 pm

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Mephisto wrote:
Daniel Stoker wrote:I don't know if you should even be able to allow them to take a class like Mystic Study as they look to have been meant to be a self enclosed R.C.C..

Daniel Stoker

Since they can't even read or write, I don't know how they'd expect to even be able to learn invocation magic...

If you follow the basic HU ed rules, all chars get the four basic skills of Nat Lang. Nat Lit, basic math and pilot auto. The Nat Lang/Lit in a SF would be Chinese for the most part.

--------
SF are not forbidden from learning a Lit.
They just do not get a Lit as a part of their Racial Skills standard set, and there is no carry over of their learning Languages bonuses to learning Lit's.

Even just using what is in the MC book, they can still get a Lit as a secondary skill.

The insurmountable issue is that they don't have PPE, they've no motivation to go learning magic when they can't work it. As written the class simply can't become any sort of magic-user at all, you basically have to rewrite them with house rules to have PPE and be able to learn magic at which point you aren't using Fox Spirits from Mystic China but something with similar abilities but different natures and not really Fox Spirits.

drewkitty ~..~ · Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:40 pm

Daniel Stoker wrote:They're still looking more like a self enclosed R.C.C. though and I do it short of just 'porting' them over as an immortal ala PU2 and then have their natural abilities count as their super powers for the Magic/Super Powers power selection.

Daniel Stoker

So you would use the Immortal tables to fill the char out instead of one of the normal power cats?

Daniel Stoker · Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:45 pm

Yes I would as it seems to make more sense to me then trying to make them mystic study on top of everything else. Also I know they get some martial arts but it's limited right? I might limit what they have access to even more depending on which styles they can pick from.

Daniel Stoker

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:51 pm

Daniel Stoker wrote:Yes I would as it seems to make more sense to me then trying to make them mystic study on top of everything else. Also I know they get some martial arts but it's limited right? I might limit what they have access to even more depending on which styles they can pick from.

Daniel Stoker

They don't learn any Martial Arts, they learn a number of Martial Arts Abilities (although never any pure negative chi abilities since they're creatures of pure positive chi) and have a natural style that's referred to as 'the way of the Fox', likely because their mindset is alien to human thinking and they aren't the sorts to engage in the kind of intensive training to develop a full human martial art.

say652 · Unread post by **say652** » Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:48 pm

what if you used Mystically Bestowed abilities and selected the spell caster option? a cute lil fox by day and a magic weilding Human? by night. sorta like a foxwere.

drewkitty ~..~ · Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:15 pm

Because I want a mage, not just a magic user.

The Spirit Fox already able to take human as well as taking fox form, at will.

Stone Gargoyle · Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:10 pm

Mephisto wrote:
Daniel Stoker wrote:I don't know if you should even be able to allow them to take a class like Mystic Study as they look to have been meant to be a self enclosed R.C.C..

Daniel Stoker

Since they can't even read or write, I don't know how they'd expect to even be able to learn invocation magic...

I agree with Mephisto on this. It should not be possible for them to learn magic.

drewkitty ~..~ · Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:15 pm

Stone Gargoyle wrote:
Mephisto wrote:
Daniel Stoker wrote:I don't know if you should even be able to allow them to take a class like Mystic Study as they look to have been meant to be a self enclosed R.C.C..

Daniel Stoker

Since they can't even read or write, I don't know how they'd expect to even be able to learn invocation magic...
I agree with Mephisto on this. It should not be possible for them to learn magic.

All magic or Just invocations?

The Beast · Unread post by **The Beast** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:53 pm

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Stone Gargoyle wrote:
Mephisto wrote:
Daniel Stoker wrote:I don't know if you should even be able to allow them to take a class like Mystic Study as they look to have been meant to be a self enclosed R.C.C..

Daniel Stoker

Since they can't even read or write, I don't know how they'd expect to even be able to learn invocation magic...
I agree with Mephisto on this. It should not be possible for them to learn magic.

All magic or Just invocations?

I can see a case made for magic using chi, but not magic using PPE.

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:52 pm

If you aren't going to allow a Fox Spirit to have P.P.E. from the magic class (although I see no reason why not), then you can work around it by teaching the Fox Spirit the Chi Magic spell "Convert Chi to P.P.E." in order to work magic.

drewkitty ~..~ · Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:06 pm

Glistam wrote:If you aren't going to allow a Fox Spirit to have P.P.E. from the magic class (although I see no reason why not), then you can work around it by teaching the Fox Spirit the Chi Magic spell "Convert Chi to P.P.E." in order to work magic.

But even then you would also need to incorporate the ability to hold ("Horde") said PPE just like Infernal Demons are stated out to be able to do.

Stone Gargoyle · Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:32 pm

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Stone Gargoyle wrote:
Mephisto wrote:
Daniel Stoker wrote:I don't know if you should even be able to allow them to take a class like Mystic Study as they look to have been meant to be a self enclosed R.C.C..

Daniel Stoker

Since they can't even read or write, I don't know how they'd expect to even be able to learn invocation magic...
I agree with Mephisto on this. It should not be possible for them to learn magic.

All magic or Just invocations?

The possible exception that I would make would be magic which uses chi to cast. Not having my books available, I am unsure if chi magic works that way.
I do find it a bit ironic after all your objections to a robot which casts magic you would be trying to do something similar with a creature clearly written as a non-magic user.

Stone Gargoyle · Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:35 pm

The Beast wrote:I can see a case made for magic using chi, but not magic using PPE.

This is basically my position.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:36 pm

Stone Gargoyle wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Stone Gargoyle wrote:
Mephisto wrote:
Daniel Stoker wrote:I don't know if you should even be able to allow them to take a class like Mystic Study as they look to have been meant to be a self enclosed R.C.C..

Daniel Stoker

Since they can't even read or write, I don't know how they'd expect to even be able to learn invocation magic...
I agree with Mephisto on this. It should not be possible for them to learn magic.

All magic or Just invocations?

The possible exception that I would make would be magic which uses chi to cast. Not having my books available, I am unsure if chi magic works that way.
I do find it a bit ironic after all your objections to a robot which casts magic you would be trying to do something similar with a creature clearly written as a non-magic user.

Outside of one spell that converts Chi into PPE there are no Chi spells that actually operate on Chi, they all require PPE to cast like all other spells.

Stone Gargoyle · Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:44 pm

Nightmask wrote:Outside of one spell that converts Chi into PPE there are no Chi spells that actually operate on Chi, they all require PPE to cast like all other spells.

Then I guess I am against this creature casting any magic. Just because they can learn literacy in a language does not mean they would have any interest whatsoever in learning something that they have no natural ability or aptitude for.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:55 pm

Stone Gargoyle wrote:
Nightmask wrote:Outside of one spell that converts Chi into PPE there are no Chi spells that actually operate on Chi, they all require PPE to cast like all other spells.

Then I guess I am against this creature casting any magic. Just because they can learn literacy in a language does not mean they would have any interest whatsoever in learning something that they have no natural ability or aptitude for.

Pretty much. While I don't mind bending some things or find some restrictions in error this is one of those races that everything about it is in direct opposition with it becoming a spell-caster. You pretty much have to ignore everything about it, add on something it by nature it doesn't and can't have, and end up with something that's pretty much unrelated to the original race.

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:09 pm

It's funny to me that hardly anyone has answered the OP's actual questions.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:20 pm

Glistam wrote:It's funny to me that hardly anyone has answered the OP's actual questions.

No they have, 'they can't any sort of spell-caster' is a valid answer.

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:50 pm

Rifts has set the precedent that one does not need to be literate in order to be able to learn magic.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:57 pm

Glistam wrote:Rifts has set the precedent that one does not need to be literate in order to be able to learn magic.

Which some would say isn't relevant since this isn't Rifts, and the issue being made has nothing to do with whether or not the race can be literate (it can) in any case but that it lacks the basic requirements to be capable of learning magic and casting spells.

The Beast · Unread post by **The Beast** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:19 pm

Nightmask wrote:Outside of one spell that converts Chi into PPE there are no Chi spells that actually operate on Chi, they all require PPE to cast like all other spells.

Ah, my bad. I thought that Chi Magic allowed use of either PPE or Chi to fuel spells.

If not Chi Magic, perhaps it could learn to use the Mudras.

Stone Gargoyle · Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:21 pm

Glistam wrote:It's funny to me that hardly anyone has answered the OP's actual questions.

That is because there is a gaping hole in the logic of making the Spirit Fox a Mystic Study character in the first place.

Stone Gargoyle · Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:26 pm

Mephisto wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Glistam wrote:It's funny to me that hardly anyone has answered the OP's actual questions.

No they have, 'they can't any sort of spell-caster' is a valid answer.

Especially using a canon RCC. If the character had simply been an anthropomorphic fox that was also Mystic Study, that character would be pretty easy to make. But a Fox Spirit has abilities pretty inherit to the RCC that precludes studying magic (such as having no literacy and no PPE). So ultimately it's not predicate on the RCC and the Power Category to match up, since there is no way to make the two work together.

Agreed. If the character were not a being of pure chi with no PPE then it would not be an issue. It would actually be just easier to make the character a mutant fox, fox-like alien or a Kankoran from PFRPG.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:42 pm

Stone Gargoyle wrote:
Mephisto wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Glistam wrote:It's funny to me that hardly anyone has answered the OP's actual questions.

No they have, 'they can't any sort of spell-caster' is a valid answer.

Especially using a canon RCC. If the character had simply been an anthropomorphic fox that was also Mystic Study, that character would be pretty easy to make. But a Fox Spirit has abilities pretty inherit to the RCC that precludes studying magic (such as having no literacy and no PPE). So ultimately it's not predicate on the RCC and the Power Category to match up, since there is no way to make the two work together.
Agreed. If the character were not a being of pure chi with no PPE then it would not be an issue. It would actually be just easier to make the character a mutant fox, fox-like alien or a Kankoran from PFRPG.

A mutant fox trained as a HU wizard would be quite effective considering mutant animals gain bonus PPE, and for a mutant fox they'd gain triple their base PE in PPE on top of what other PPE they get for being a mage.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:43 pm

The Beast wrote:
Nightmask wrote:Outside of one spell that converts Chi into PPE there are no Chi spells that actually operate on Chi, they all require PPE to cast like all other spells.

Ah, my bad. I thought that Chi Magic allowed use of either PPE or Chi to fuel spells.

If not Chi Magic, perhaps it could learn to use the Mudras.

Well it already gets a number of special Martial Art powers, mostly from the Zenjoriki and Chi Mastery categories. Some of those are quite powerful and deadly.

Stone Gargoyle · Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:04 pm

Nightmask wrote:A mutant fox trained as a HU wizard would be quite effective considering mutant animals gain bonus PPE, and for a mutant fox they'd gain triple their base PE in PPE on top of what other PPE they get for being a mage.

But I am sure drewkitty~..~ wants them to have the extras that come with being a Spirit Fox, such as the fighting skills and whatnot. Personally, I would go with the mutant fox instead.

drewkitty ~..~ · Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:05 pm

Stone Gargoyle wrote:
Glistam wrote:It's funny to me that hardly anyone has answered the OP's actual questions.
That is because there is a gaping hole in the logic of making the Spirit Fox a Mystic Study character in the first place.

There is the refomed demon has no PPE because they are neg chi beings, but the Infernal demons (which where the reformed deamons come from) say they have none but can horde PPE. And some of them demons have Chi magic. :roll:

So that is where I got the textual support for Spirit Fox's could "Horde PPE" and able to "use magic" like the other pure chi beings detailed in the MC book can do.

What :crane:

hole?

Besides I have decided how to deal with the skills aspect of what I started this about.

say652 · Unread post by **say652** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:06 pm

Mystically bestowed my be your only DK. lol

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:46 pm

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Stone Gargoyle wrote:
Glistam wrote:It's funny to me that hardly anyone has answered the OP's actual questions.
That is because there is a gaping hole in the logic of making the Spirit Fox a Mystic Study character in the first place.

There is the refomed demon has no PPE because they are neg chi beings, but the Infernal demons (which where the reformed deamons come from) say they have none but can horde PPE. And some of them demons have Chi magic.
So that is where I got the textual support for Spirit Fox's could "Horde PPE" and able to "use magic" like the other pure chi beings detailed in the MC book can do.

What hole?

Besides I have decided how to deal with the skills aspect of what I started this about.

Given Fox Spirits aren't demons, reformed or otherwise, such an argument is completely without merit. Fox Spirits unlike Infernal Demons are explicitly NOT noted as being able to convert chi into PPE or to be able to store PPE in any fashion so by the book (as you're so fond of saying) it's impossible for a Fox Spirit to learn magic or cast spells because they're incapable of having PPE which is the basis of all spell-casting both Eastern and Western.

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:34 am

If he makes the fox spitit a mage using Revised HU rules then there's no need for P.P.E. since those types of mages (also found within Transdimensional TMNT) did not use PPE to cast spells. There are also items scattered throughout Palladium that give mages extra P.P.E for spell casting purposes. It's neither an impossible nor unreasonable goal.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:46 am

Glistam wrote:If he makes the fox spitit a mage using Revised HU rules then there's no need for P.P.E. since those types of mages (also found within Transdimensional TMNT) did not use PPE to cast spells. There are also items scattered throughout Palladium that give mages extra P.P.E for spell casting purposes. It's neither an impossible nor unreasonable goal.

Outside of using the older books that don't use PPE for spell-casting I'm not seeing how you find that last part plausible. As a race they have absolutely no PPE and can't have it because they're pure Chi beings, the nature of spellcasting (at least in Palladium) is all about learning to build up and manipulate your inherent PPE in order to work magic and races that don't have PPE (like that reptilian race in the Phaseworld setting) can't learn magic or cast spells. So if you're using the Fox Spirit from Mystic China as it is it simply cannot become a mage, if you're creating one that can have PPE and learn magic then it's not a Fox Spirit.

Glistam · Unread post by **Glistam** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:02 pm

You can't compare the Fox Spirit to the race from Phase World with no P.P.E., because that race lost their magical abilities due to a species-wide ritual that cost the entire race their magical potential. It was a mystical thing, not just an issue of no P.P.E.. Every mage is taught how to build up and hold P.P.E.. Just because the Fox Spirit starts with no P.P.E. does not mean they can't learn how to build up and hold P.P.E..

drewkitty ~..~ · Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:04 pm

Nightmask wrote:snip.. and can't have it because they're pure Chi beings, ...snip

I am going to do something I avoid doing. Respond directly to NM.

You have already been shown that the above statement is WRONG. So please do not bring This incorrect idea up again.

Daniel Stoker · Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:44 pm

Just go with the immortal idea, it's much easier and not nearly as OP as making the Fox Spirit a mystic study.

Daniel Stoker

say652 · Unread post by **say652** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:48 pm

I support Drewkitties character option BUT think the only way to do it is Mystically bestowed Abiliteis with the spell caster option.1 form spirit fox the other a SPELL CASTER.

Nightmask · Unread post by **Nightmask** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:37 pm

Glistam wrote:You can't compare the Fox Spirit to the race from Phase World with no P.P.E., because that race lost their magical abilities due to a species-wide ritual that cost the entire race their magical potential. It was a mystical thing, not just an issue of no P.P.E.. Every mage is taught how to build up and hold P.P.E.. Just because the Fox Spirit starts with no P.P.E. does not mean they can't learn how to build up and hold P.P.E..

It's more relevant than someone wanting to claim that because an unrelated race (infernal demons) are capable of hoarding PPE and converting their Chi to PPE then Fox Spirits who don't have any such ability can too. You have a race that's stated to have zero PPE and being incapable of being mages as a result (go reread the text on that race, the ritual permanently sacrificed their potential to have PPE which is why they can't be mages, NOT because some mystical ritual denies them the ability to work magic) and you have a race stated to have zero PPE because they're creatures of pure chi which implies that they can't have PPE because of their nature and therefor can't build up PPE either from training because it's not something their race has. If they can't have PPE (because again they aren't infernal demons who have a racial trait of being able to convert some of their Chi to PPE and store it since they don't have it naturally) then they can't work magic.