Is healing and Fleshsculptor magic "Transformation"

[barna10]

In short, can a Fleshsculptor use his magic on a Nightbane?

Can the Fleshsculptor fuse a new arm to a Nightbane? It's not really a transformation, but it is an alteration. IS an alteration a transformation? Nightbane can be hurt, lose a limb, etc, but can they be healed/enhanced?

Could a Fleshsculptor do plastic surgery on a Facade?

All of the magics of the Fleshsculptor alter the body. None are really "Transformations". The transformations listed in the "Immune to Transformations" paragraph all seem to significantly alter the nature of the Nightbane's physical structure (petrification, turn to mist, changing into a vampire, etc). I would think that if you allow healing magics, you would allow Fleshsculpting as well. What do you think?

[Tinker Dragoon]

Nightbane are immune to any Fleshsculpting spell which changes their shape or physical appearance. Other sorts of Fleshsculpting may or may not work, depending the particular spell effect.

For example, Nightbane who die in Morphus form do not leave a corpse, and therefore cannot be affected by Destroy Dead Flesh or Reanimate Flesh. Likewise, Knowing Candle won't detect a Nightbane in Facade form.

Judging from the Rifts conversion notes on page 143 of Between the Shadows, Replace Limb and Meld Living Flesh & Bone would be able to replace limbs or other body parts lost in Facade form, but any other kind of foreign attachment would be expelled by both forms.

[barna10]

Nightbane are immune to any Fleshsculpting spell which changes their shape or physical appearance. Other sorts of Fleshsculpting may or may not work, depending the particular spell effect.

For example, Nightbane who die in Morphus form do not leave a corpse, and therefore cannot be affected by Destroy Dead Flesh or Reanimate Flesh. Likewise, Knowing Candle won't detect a Nightbane in Facade form.

Judging from the Rifts conversion notes on page 143 of Between the Shadows, Replace Limb and Meld Living Flesh & Bone would be able to replace limbs or other body parts lost in Facade form, but any other kind of foreign attachment would be expelled by both forms.

Is Psychic Surgery also forbidden? If not, why not?

[drewkitty ~..~]

In short, can a Fleshsculptor use his magic on a Nightbane?

In short, No.

[Tinker Dragoon]

Nightbane are immune to any Fleshsculpting spell which changes their shape or physical appearance. Other sorts of Fleshsculpting may or may not work, depending the particular spell effect.

For example, Nightbane who die in Morphus form do not leave a corpse, and therefore cannot be affected by Destroy Dead Flesh or Reanimate Flesh. Likewise, Knowing Candle won't detect a Nightbane in Facade form.

Judging from the Rifts conversion notes on page 143 of Between the Shadows, Replace Limb and Meld Living Flesh & Bone would be able to replace limbs or other body parts lost in Facade form, but any other kind of foreign attachment would be expelled by both forms.

Is Psychic Surgery also forbidden? If not, why not?

Psychic Surgery and other healing powers should still work, because they don't alter the character's form in any way, although using them on a Nightbane may be redundant.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Nightbane are immune to any Fleshsculpting spell which changes their shape or physical appearance. Other sorts of Fleshsculpting may or may not work, depending the particular spell effect.

For example, Nightbane who die in Morphus form do not leave a corpse, and therefore cannot be affected by Destroy Dead Flesh or Reanimate Flesh. Likewise, Knowing Candle won't detect a Nightbane in Facade form.

Judging from the Rifts conversion notes on page 143 of Between the Shadows, Replace Limb and Meld Living Flesh & Bone would be able to replace limbs or other body parts lost in Facade form, but any other kind of foreign attachment would be expelled by both forms.

Is Psychic Surgery also forbidden? If not, why not?

Psychic Surgery and other healing powers should still work, because they don't alter the character's form in any way, although using them on a Nightbane may be redundant.

@TD
Only if you are talking about using the Psi-Surgery on the morphus.
The facade heals at the same rate as a mundane human so if the facade is hurt then they would need the same medical treatment same as humans.

[yes, some of you might point out that in the RDC it says that NB facades have a X SDC per min. regen rate. However, since what is covered in the RDC is for what NB are In The Rifts Setting (bluntly: the x sdc per min. regen. for the facade is only in the rifts setting) in the NB setting they still only heal at the human rate, because that has not been changed in a NB book.]
(why saying it as x sdc per min, regen....cause I can't list it off the top of my head ATM & not getting the RDC out.)

[Yes, some might say that that the regen rate is not limited to the morphus in the NBMB. The facade is specifically limited to be Not SuperNatural. Thus except for the nightvision; which was specifically excepted; all the SN attributes are limited to the morphus. Yes, the RDC says different, but as with the above, what is said in the RDC is limited to the rifts setting.]

[barna10]

Well, after hearing your opinions, I have to conclude that Nightbane can not only not benefit from a majority of beneficial magic and psionics, but I also have to rule that they can't be damaged because damaging them would be transforming/altering their physical form!

Either that or their physical form doesn't show damage ie you can't truly lop off the arm of a Nightbane because that would be "transforming" them. Also, you can't burn them, visibly, because that would be "transforming" them.

[drewkitty ~..~]

there is the text in the NBMB that talks about a cannon blowing off a NB's leg.
and there is text about that NB not having any special immunities from taking damage.

transformation immunity is mainly there to say they can't be metamorphed (meta- spells and splugy bio-wizardry) nor geneticly altered (those bad guys in the 1st triax book)

The only place I know of that the char does not show any damage to their body is one part of "The Tables of Doom."

[Tinker Dragoon]

Psychic Surgery and other healing powers should still work, because they don't alter the character's form in any way, although using them on a Nightbane may be redundant.

@TD
Only if you are talking about using the Psi-Surgery on the morphus.
The facade heals at the same rate as a mundane human so if the facade is hurt then they would need the same medical treatment same as humans.

[yes, some of you might point out that in the RDC it says that NB facades have a X SDC per min. regen rate. However, since what is covered in the RDC is for what NB are In The Rifts Setting (bluntly: the x sdc per min. regen. for the facade is only in the rifts setting) in the NB setting they still only heal at the human rate, because that has not been changed in a NB book.]
(why saying it as x sdc per min, regen....cause I can't list it off the top of my head ATM & not getting the RDC out.)

[Yes, some might say that that the regen rate is not limited to the morphus in the NBMB. The facade is specifically limited to be Not SuperNatural. Thus except for the nightvision; which was specifically excepted; all the SN attributes are limited to the morphus. Yes, the RDC says different, but as with the above, what is said in the RDC is limited to the rifts setting.]

Regardless of whether or not the Facade regenerates, you can easily transform to Morphus, heal up, and then revert to Facade free of injury (except, it seems, for severed limbs). So, Psychic Surgery is generally of little benefit to a Nightbane unless the character is for some reason unable to transform (e.g. put into a coma while in Facade), or has been shot with uranium rounds.

Well, after hearing your opinions, I have to conclude that Nightbane can not only not benefit from a majority of beneficial magic and psionics, but I also have to rule that they can't be damaged because damaging them would be transforming/altering their physical form!

Either that or their physical form doesn't show damage ie you can't truly lop off the arm of a Nightbane because that would be "transforming" them. Also, you can't burn them, visibly, because that would be "transforming" them.

You're nitpicking over dictionary definitions. In the context of the game, transformation magic consists of those spells and other magical effects which alter the character's shape (e.g. Metamorphosis: Animal), size (e.g. Giant, Size of the Behemoth), substance (e.g. Petrification, Metamorphosis: Mist), or physical appearance (e.g. Disfigure Flesh).

[barna10]

You're nitpicking over dictionary definitions. In the context of the game, transformation magic consists of those spells and other magical effects which alter the character's shape (e.g. Metamorphosis: Animal), size (e.g. Giant, Size of the Behemoth), substance (e.g. Petrification, Metamorphosis: Mist), or physical appearance (e.g. Disfigure Flesh).

I'm not "nitpicking". The text states that Nightbane can't be physically "transformed by any means, including but not limited to the following: metamorphosis...". This does not say "any magical means", it says simply ANY means. That's pretty absolute and clear. Now, if the intention was that it was any MAGICAL means, it should be worded differently, but it doesn't say any magical means, it says "any means". This means they can't be affected by super-powers either.

Also, do you have a reference for your definition of transformation magic? Pretty sure that healing massive damage or removing scars would also constitute changing one's physical appearance which means healing of any kind is pretty much out.

Also, if you take the text literally, they can't even be cursed! In fact, one might even argue the Nightbane can't be affected by ANY spell, at least according to the text. I know this sounds ridiculous, but re-read the passage about being immune to Transformations. It mentions metamorphosis spells, and then later mentions ALL spells and enchantments separately. Does this mean that any magical effect is considered a transformation of some kind? Otherwise, why redundantly mention metamorphosis spells, curses, wishes (which I didn't even realize actually existed in Palladium!), AND spells and enchantments? It's either a HORRIBLY worded paragraph or intentionally trying to say that ALL magic is transformation magic!

Now, you can state your opinion of what you THINK the text means, but you can't argue what is actually in print.

Personally, I limit "transformation" to be anything that changes the actual nature of the subject. Rearranging what is already there (cutting, ripping off a limb, plastic surgery, sculpting flesh) is allowable in my games. Things like growth spells, metamorphosis, turning someone into a frog, gaining super-powers, etc, are all out!

[drewkitty ~..~]

Regardless of whether or not the Facade regenerates, you can easily transform to Morphus, heal up, and then revert to Facade free of injury (except, it seems, for severed limbs). So, Psychic Surgery is generally of little benefit to a Nightbane unless the character is for some reason unable to transform (e.g. put into a coma while in Facade), or has been shot with uranium rounds.

This is an assumption that the damage of the facade is transferred to the morphus. All of the GM's I've played NB under had the two "hp/sdc" sets separate.

I agree with them because there is no mention of the damage suffered by the NB transferring between the facade and the morphus nor the reverse. If there is any text to validate your comment please post the location.

[Tor]

Knowing Candle won't detect a Nightbane in Facade form.

I don't understand the logic here, can you explain why the Knowing Candle wouldn't work?

nor geneticly altered (those bad guys in the 1st triax book)

I believe the Gene Splicers are in the Mindwerks sourcebook, not Triax

[elecgraystone]

Regardless of whether or not the Facade regenerates, you can easily transform to Morphus, heal up, and then revert to Facade free of injury (except, it seems, for severed limbs). So, Psychic Surgery is generally of little benefit to a Nightbane unless the character is for some reason unable to transform (e.g. put into a coma while in Facade), or has been shot with uranium rounds.

This is an assumption that the damage of the facade is transferred to the morphus. All of the GM's I've played NB under had the two "hp/sdc" sets separate.

I agree with them because there is no mention of the damage suffered by the NB transferring between the facade and the morphus nor the reverse. If there is any text to validate your comment please post the location.

Rifter 48, page 23 under “Official” answers to some commonly asked questions regarding the rules and world of Nightbane

Question: Do Nightbane retain their 10 Hit Points/S.D.C. per melee healing rate in their Facade? How does being damaged in one form affect them if they change into their other form?
Answer: The main rule book indicates that the Facade form is not supernatural, but does mention that they still heal faster than normal humans. In Facade, Nightbane heal 10 Hit Points/S.D.C. per hour. However, damage taken in Morphus does not cross over to Facade or vice versa. Both forms heal at their normal rates even when the Nightbane is in his other form. So a Nightbane who took 20 points of damage to his Facade could transform to his Morphus and have no damage, but it would take two hours before he could go back to his Facade and be fully healed.

So Facades regenerate AND both facade and morphus heal independently and simultaneously.

[Tor]

There is always the option of a pair of Nightbane with 'Share the Flesh' using their respective Morphi to heal each other's facades though

Makes me wonder, if a Nightbane used 'Splittin Image', could they then have their Morphus heal their Facade using Share the Flesh, in that way?