EBSIS.... still around?

[Comrade Corsarius]

Hi there everyone

It's been a little while since I posted last, and certainly longer since I picked up the new Robotech RPG. I wonder, with the new stuff that's coming out for palladium robotech, is the EBSIS still viable or has the Palladium Robotech universe ceased to be?

[Jefffar]

The EBSIS is not listed by name, however the text in the new books also does not preclude it's existence and in the Shadow Chronicles main book there is an adventure hook involving the characters encountering older mecha designs in former Soviet Territory proclaiming their independence from the UEG.

So even if the EBSIS itself is not listed, there are EBSIS like nations still present.

[Comrade Corsarius]

The EBSIS is not listed by name, however the text in the new books also does not preclude it's existence and in the Shadow Chronicles main book there is an adventure hook involving the characters encountering older mecha designs in former Soviet Territory proclaiming their independence from the UEG.

So even if the EBSIS itself is not listed, there are EBSIS like nations still present.

*sighs sadly* oh .

It was part of Palladium's own continuity that I really did enjoy: A powerful non-protoculture nation with its own agenda, portions of which may have survived all the way through the invid occupation and beyond (as I detailed in a story I posted here, long long ago).

Also, I loved the linear way the Invid think: They ALWAYS target protoculture powered devices first, THEN anything else. Made my old soldati last a heck of a long time while other players were going through alpha fighters like they went through clean pairs of socks.

[ShadowLogan]

Atleast one of the new ASC power armor mention being designed to fight Battloids, so there could be independent designs not part of the UEG's forces (past/present/future).

The EBSIS in name probably doesn't exist anymore, though nothing to really stop anyone from importing from the 1E RPG.

[Jefffar]

I don't think Palladium has been given authorization to name or stat out independent factions at this time, however they have made it clear in the books that they do exist.

[Chris0013]

I really want to see some more on this in the RPG...simple fact is there are plenty of nations out there that would not just "fall in line" as for mecha they would bribe, kidnap, and flat out send their own people to school in countries that educate the mecha engineers so they would get their hands on their own designs or the knowledge to convert existing (Zentraedi??) tech.

Also makes for more interesting world and gear a mercenary may get his hands on.

[ESalter]

So even if the EBSIS itself is not listed, there are EBSIS like nations still present.

*sighs sadly* oh .

Personally, I find the EBSIS's inclusion chauvinistic: it turns Russians into motiveless evildoers. A lot of Robotech material assumes UnG = US, and this strikes me as much the same thing. Its very name sounds like something invented for a generic enemy.

It was part of Palladium's own continuity that I really did enjoy: A powerful non-protoculture nation with its own agenda, portions of which may have survived all the way through the invid occupation and beyond (as I detailed in a story I posted here, long long ago).

From a Purist standpoint:

So, they're a potential threat to the Southern Cross? Well geeze. I guess it's a good thing they decided not to bother fighting the Masters when they arrived..or attacking the UEG while they were distracted..or even existing at all in the time period to which they are assigned. Hell, the existence of an army that is slightly less powerful than the Southern Cross would have changed the entire way the second war played out. Whichever faction they sided with would have won WITHOUT the mutual annihilation that actually occurred.

IMO, they don't even really work within the RPG's continuity: if they were that much of a threat the REF would simply have destroyed them before leaving for Tirol.

Also, I loved the linear way the Invid think: They ALWAYS target protoculture powered devices first, THEN anything else. Made my old soldati last a heck of a long time while other players were going through alpha fighters like they went through clean pairs of socks.

Personally, I don't care for that interpretation of the Invid: a warlike, starfaring species ought to take notice when someone is shooting at them.

[Comrade Corsarius]

Personally, I find the EBSIS's inclusion chauvinistic: it turns Russians into motiveless evildoers. A lot of Robotech material assumes UnG = US, and this strikes me as much the same thing. Its very name sounds like something invented for a generic enemy.

I feel they were more selfishly motivated rather than chauvinistic. Basically it was 'this is your war, nothing to do with us' and then once the Invid came, they were even more motivated to survive as a unit. Prior to the arrival of the masters, I would have expected something akin to the Cold War, with wars by proxy being fought (for example, the section in New World Order is very good).

It was part of Palladium's own continuity that I really did enjoy: A powerful non-protoculture nation with its own agenda, portions of which may have survived all the way through the invid occupation and beyond (as I detailed in a story I posted here, long long ago).

IMO, they don't even really work within the RPG's continuity: if they were that much of a threat the REF would simply have destroyed them before leaving for Tirol.

At the time, the RPG made it clear that the EBSIS got their world-supremacy dream, but only for a few short years before they were crushed by the Invid. Prior to the REF leaving, they were running around mostly with converted zentraedi units, and there were high hopes for the power of the ASC. The REF would not have been involved in any conflict anyway, as they were husbanding their forces (wisely as it turned out) for the potential of a large conflict with (what was then thought) the masters.

Personally, I don't care for that interpretation of the Invid: a warlike, starfaring species ought to take notice when someone is shooting at them.

Well there's a few reasons. Took some thinking, but you have to remember the Invid are alien.

1) they aren't too bright unless led by a stage 4 or better and have extremely limited reasoning. They mostly are, effectively, organic robots.
2) they are effectively religious fanatics, and what we are doing is debasing their whole point of existence. The use of protoculture by any but themselves drives them into a frenzy. They're not entirely oblivious to the AKG-47 chewing away at them, but they HAVE to kill the 'defilers' (for want of a better word) first. As a GM, throw an RCB, a clever PCU, or and enforcer into the command mix and you'll find that the tactics are rather different and based much more heavily on threat level, although still with a hefty spin on destroying protoculture-based stuff. It's this alien way of thought that allows freedom fighters to continue to operate if they're clever... it's just that protoculture is a blessing and a curse all at once to us.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Hi there everyone

It's been a little while since I posted last, and certainly longer since I picked up the new Robotech RPG. I wonder, with the new stuff that's coming out for palladium robotech, is the EBSIS still viable or has the Palladium Robotech universe ceased to be?

wow, nice to see you post again. I've been working on a new "EBSIS" of sorts... somehtign that kinda keeps the feel of the old one, minus the whole Cold-war hold overs... when i feel like it I'll dig out the topic, and maybe get to positng more on it.

[ESalter]

Personally, I find the EBSIS's inclusion chauvinistic: it turns Russians into motiveless evildoers. A lot of Robotech material assumes UnG = US, and this strikes me as much the same thing. Its very name sounds like something invented for a generic enemy.

I feel they were more selfishly motivated rather than chauvinistic. Basically it was 'this is your war, nothing to do with us' and then once the Invid came, they were even more motivated to survive as a unit.

The RPG treats the Soviet Union as alien even prior to the RoD; for example, the RDF Manual:

As part of a diplomatic overture, the [RDF's] CVS Iapetus was sold to the Soviets in the fall of 2008.

Why should the USSR be outside the UnG as opposed to, for example, the USA?

Prior to the arrival of the masters, I would have expected something akin to the Cold War, with wars by proxy being fought.

Random encounter tables commonly have regular EBSIS units attack the RDF on sight.

(for example, the section in New World Order is very good).

I did like that book.

IMO, they don't even really work within the RPG's continuity: if they were that much of a threat the REF would simply have destroyed them before leaving for Tirol.

The REF would not have been involved in any conflict anyway, as they were husbanding their forces (wisely as it turned out) for the potential of a large conflict with (what was then thought) the masters.

The goal of the REF was, presumably, to protect Earth; leaving a powerful enemy behind it would be foolish. The EBSIS engaged in direct attacks against the RDF, theft, and the support of homicidal Zentraedi.

Personally, I don't care for that interpretation of the Invid: a warlike, starfaring species ought to take notice when someone is shooting at them.

Well there's a few reasons. Took some thinking, but you have to remember the Invid are alien.

1) they aren't too bright unless led by a stage 4 or better and have extremely limited reasoning. They mostly are, effectively, organic robots.

But even an animal can recognize attacks against it.

2) they are effectively religious fanatics, and what we are doing is debasing their whole point of existence. The use of protoculture by any but themselves drives them into a frenzy. They're not entirely oblivious to the AKG-47 chewing away at them, but they HAVE to kill the 'defilers' (for want of a better word) first.

IMO, this sort of contradicts point one: "organic robots" as religious fanatics? Also, they allow human allies protoculture, so it can't be that sacred.

As a GM, throw an RCB, a clever PCU, or and enforcer into the command mix and you'll find that the tactics are rather different and based much more heavily on threat level, although still with a hefty spin on destroying protoculture-based stuff. It's this alien way of thought that allows freedom fighters to continue to operate if they're clever... it's just that protoculture is a blessing and a curse all at once to us.

If "alienness" were a concern when writing up the Invid, Siembieda would have included some cultural notes. As it is, their alienness is observable only as stupidity; it seems to me like an excuse to make them easy to kill.

[Seto Kaiba]

Personally, I find the EBSIS's inclusion chauvinistic: it turns Russians into motiveless evildoers. A lot of Robotech material assumes UnG = US, and this strikes me as much the same thing. Its very name sounds like something invented for a generic enemy.

Yeah, that's pretty much my take on the whole EBSIS "faction" in the old game. It wasn't exactly uncommon for western fiction to demonize the Soviets back when the original RPG was being written, but these days it seems a little quaint. "Evil Russians" stopped being a viable plot device once the Soviet Union imploded and the rest of the world saw that their villainous hobby horse was in pretty dire shape. There wasn't much point in having EBSIS around in the first place, and nowadays it would just serve to make the setting look even more dated than it already does.

As far as the whole "UEG = US" thing goes, that's more an unavoidable consequence of the prevailing mindset when the Robotech series was first made and when the various old licensed works were produced. Harmony Gold plays it down a little these days, but it's still very much the case that UEG generally means USA. (It's actually kind of ironic when you think about it, since Carl Macek made the heavily multinational cast into a predominantly American one even though the majority of the cast was already westerners or the descendants thereof.)

[Jefffar]

I strongly feel that the RPG needs a human enemy to round it out and add some variety.

At the time the original RDF Manual was written (1987) we had a very different world than we do today. In 1987 the Soviet Union was still potent and vital. Their military was potentially more powerful than all of NATO put together, their aircraft and tanks were believed to be at parity with contemporary Western designs and their economy showed no signs of imminent collapse. This was a world in which the Berlin Wall still stood, Soviet troops were in Afghanistan and Soviet Ballistic Missile Submarines were prowling the world's oceans.

So at the time, a Soviet Empire as Villain made a lot of sense.

March history forward a few years and suddenly the Soviet Union is gone, much of it's arsenal has been decommissioned, their weapon systems are pushing obsolescence, their economy in tatters and they are considered an ally in the Global War on Terror. Now casting the Soviets as the bad guys makes little sense because, quite frankly, there are no Soviets left.

So what does that leave us for a human villain? Well we have the possibility for corruption within the UEG/UEDF/UEEF/ASC but also there are independent nations and anti-UEG factions in the world that can cause problems too. I personally like all of the above and intend to use them.

Another poster brought up the idea that it was impossible for an EBSIS that was comparable in power to the UEG to actually exist in the series. Such a faction would have significantly altered the conduct of the Second Robotech War and any faction too weak to have done so would simply have been destroyed by the UEG.

I have to disagree with that one on a number of points.

1) The EBSIS was never actually of comparable strength to the forces of the RDF/ASC in the old RPG. What they were was strong enough that the RDF/ASC couldn't afford a full scale war without crippling their ability to defend the planet. As defending the planet was their primary responsibility, the RDF/ASC instead focused on containment and diplomatic solutions.

2) The EBSIS wasn't in a position to have a significant effect on the battles of the Second Robotech War as most of the action took place in Space and North America, two theatres where the EBSIS had little to no presence.

3) The EBSIS, while hostile, recognized that they could be wiped out by the ASC/RDF and so worked to avoid open warfare between itself and the ASC/RDF. Of course smaller nations had no such protection unless they abandoned their independence.

So yes, a large, powerful independent nation an definitely exist in the setting. In the mid 1980s that power ended up being labelled soviets. In the early 21t century, who knows? Islamist? Rogue Capitalist? European Union?

[glitterboy2098]

1) The EBSIS was never actually of comparable strength to the forces of the RDF/ASC in the old RPG. What they were was strong enough that the RDF/ASC couldn't afford a full scale war without crippling their ability to defend the planet. As defending the planet was their primary responsibility, the RDF/ASC instead focused on containment and diplomatic solutions.

more specifically, the UEG couldn't afford to fight a conventional war with the EBSIS without crippling their ability to defend earth. the UEG could easily have used orbital bombardment and nuclear strikes to eliminate the EBSIS as a threat, but such methods are hardly 'surgical' and would result in the effective extermination of a large percentage of the surviving population of earth, something that runs counter to the UEG's role, and is very out of character for the UEG at the time.

2) The EBSIS wasn't in a position to have a significant effect on the battles of the Second Robotech War as most of the action took place in Space and North America, two theatres where the EBSIS had little to no presence.

the only time the masters might have ended up fighting the EBSIS was right at the end when they were using scortched earth tactics to wipe out as much as possible before completely running out of power...i could see some of the master's forces going after anything that they found by that point. anywhere on earth.

3) The EBSIS, while hostile, recognized that they could be wiped out by the ASC/RDF and so worked to avoid open warfare between itself and the ASC/RDF. Of course smaller nations had no such protection unless they abandoned their independence.

or banded together to form a larger entity, the way the south american nations around the Zentreadi control zone did. while officially UEG members, those nations built up their own militaries seperate fro mthe UEG and EBSIS..and by the time of the ASC, had become a fully soveriegn power in it's own right.

So yes, a large, powerful independent nation can definitely exist in the setting. In the mid 1980s that power ended up being labelled soviets. In the early 21t century, who knows? Islamist? Rogue Capitalist? European Union?

personally i like to assume it would be "ex-soviet republics". take the EBSIS, remove the soviet elements in favor of early Putin era russian federation elements, and add a large amount of eastern and central european non-russian elements as well.

with the Global war in the 90's, Russia would have a reason to start draging itself back out of the economic mess earlier, and start building up alliances with many of those old soviet holdings turned independant nations. something that has taken until now to see in the real world.

[FreelancerMar]

Yes at the time that the 1st Edition Robotech was written, The Soviets were still very much a World power complete with Nuclear Arsenal to back them up.

Also if the UEG was foolish enough to use Nuclear attacks against the soviets, the largely automated Soviet ICBM Silos would launch their own Nuclear ordnance on pre-programed targets pretty much completely wiping almost all life period off the earth. Also as pointed out, back then the soviets also still had full navel nuclear launch capability which would also retaliate against those that destroyed their nation.

So at the time it was still very much a cold war chess game. The Soviets also did not have anything that the ET's wanted and had the luxery of only having to worry about thier own territory. Thus they had the Might to resist being swallowed up by the tyranical UEG and it's imperialist member nations.

[Jefffar]

Ultimately, the ASC/RDF had to answer to the politicians in the UEG and they decided that a war with the EBSIS was not worth it.


In the new RPGs, the ASC/UEDF still answer to the UEG and the UEG apparently tolerates the existence of a number of independent states.

[Chris0013]

While I would not put the EBSIS at a technological equivalence with the UEG/UEDF in terms of manpower I would think they are comparable.

Maybe there should be more of a Confederate Alliance of Nations. Numerous countries that want no part of the UEG but have mutual aid treaties to assist each other from the UEG coming in and taking them over and use the same equipment....some form of body armor comparable the the SC armor, a couple or 3 types of energy weapons, AKs using SLAP rounds, Conventional tanks and APCs up armored with hull peices form Zentraidi ships and mecha, VTOL capable fighter jets, Zentraidi mecha modified to be piloted by human pilots, and even original designed battloids/destroids.

[ESalter]

I strongly feel that the RPG needs a human enemy to round it out and add some variety.

IMO, fidelity to the source supersedes all else. (And is the source material is really that boring?)

At the time the original RDF Manual was written (1987) we had a very different world than we do today. In 1987 the Soviet Union was still potent and vital. Their military was potentially more powerful than all of NATO put together, their aircraft and tanks were believed to be at parity with contemporary Western designs and their economy showed no signs of imminent collapse. This was a world in which the Berlin Wall still stood, Soviet troops were in Afghanistan and Soviet Ballistic Missile Submarines were prowling the world's oceans.

So at the time, a Soviet Empire as Villain made a lot of sense.

March history forward a few years and suddenly the Soviet Union is gone, much of it's arsenal has been decommissioned, their weapon systems are pushing obsolescence, their economy in tatters and they are considered an ally in the Global War on Terror. Now casting the Soviets as the bad guys makes little sense because, quite frankly, there are no Soviets left.

This assumes Un. = the US. Why should the USSR's hostility towards America put it outside Un.?

Another poster brought up the idea that it was impossible for an EBSIS that was comparable in power to the UEG to actually exist in the series. Such a faction would have significantly altered the conduct of the Second Robotech War and any faction too weak to have done so would simply have been destroyed by the UEG.

I have to disagree with that one on a number of points.

1) The EBSIS was never actually of comparable strength to the forces of the RDF/ASC in the old RPG. What they were was strong enough that the RDF/ASC couldn't afford a full scale war without crippling their ability to defend the planet. As defending the planet was their primary responsibility, the RDF/ASC instead focused on containment and diplomatic solutions.

The EBSIS is the biggest threat on the planet: they directly attack UnF units, and they aid hostile Zentraedi; they interfere with four of the RDF's five purposes listed in the RDF Manual, and violate the proscription against protoculture.

2) The EBSIS wasn't in a position to have a significant effect on the battles of the Second Robotech War as most of the action took place in Space and North America, two theatres where the EBSIS had little to no presence.

The EBSIS could make attacks on other areas; the possibility of a new theater is a big threat.

3) The EBSIS, while hostile, recognized that they could be wiped out by the ASC/RDF and so worked to avoid open warfare between itself and the ASC/RDF. Of course smaller nations had no such protection unless they abandoned their independence.

75-80 in "Random Encounters in the South American Sector" ("also applicable to the African Congo, and Asian Jungles") in the RDF Manual presents the possibility of an attack on sight by EBSIS forces; IINM, there are similar entries in tables in other books. Also, its indirect actions are not done with a great deal of subtlety; I don't believe that its theft, salvage, and support for hostile Zentraedi would be secret.

[Jefffar]

I strongly feel that the RPG needs a human enemy to round it out and add some variety.

IMO, fidelity to the source supersedes all else. (And is the source material is really that boring?)

It's not boring at all, but once all the material we see in the original source is represented, where is the room for the setting to expand and grow? The old West End Games Star Wars RPG was a great success not just because it gave you everything Star Wars but because it also expanded upon the setting, constantly giving new options.

As nothing in the series directly contradicts that there are unaligned nations that does give room for authors to work in new and interesting items, especially in the period between the first and second saga. That is an idea time for independant nations to first flourish, come into conflict with the UEG and eventually be checked.

At the time the original RDF Manual was written (1987) we had a very different world than we do today. In 1987 the Soviet Union was still potent and vital. Their military was potentially more powerful than all of NATO put together, their aircraft and tanks were believed to be at parity with contemporary Western designs and their economy showed no signs of imminent collapse. This was a world in which the Berlin Wall still stood, Soviet troops were in Afghanistan and Soviet Ballistic Missile Submarines were prowling the world's oceans.

So at the time, a Soviet Empire as Villain made a lot of sense.

March history forward a few years and suddenly the Soviet Union is gone, much of it's arsenal has been decommissioned, their weapon systems are pushing obsolescence, their economy in tatters and they are considered an ally in the Global War on Terror. Now casting the Soviets as the bad guys makes little sense because, quite frankly, there are no Soviets left.

This assumes Un. = the US. Why should the USSR's hostility towards America put it outside Un.?

Mostly because the authors of the RPG were American and assumed they would be part of the good guys (though not exclusively, in the RDF Manual major independent powers were to be found in North America as well). However there are a number of credible theories that can be made.

Personally I tinkered with the Global Civil War and it's role in shaping the pre-Robotech world. In that war the Americans and Soviets were apparently enemies, though a fair degree of the fighting may have been done through proxies. The war ended not with either side proclaiming victory, but with a truce necessitated by having to deal with bigger threats. So, up until first Robotech War, the Americans and Soviets were uneasy allies and frequent rivals.

In the wake of the war, radical factions seize power in the former Soviet Territories. Their propaganda machine blames the UEG for the war and the destruction it wrought. They remove themselves from the alliance and work to weaken it. This goes on for most of the decade following the global attack until ultimately the UEG manages to stabilize the world and force the EBSIS to back down from it's more aggressive policies. The EBSIS still grumbles loudly and maintains a large military, but knows enough not to wage a war it can't win.

Another poster brought up the idea that it was impossible for an EBSIS that was comparable in power to the UEG to actually exist in the series. Such a faction would have significantly altered the conduct of the Second Robotech War and any faction too weak to have done so would simply have been destroyed by the UEG.

I have to disagree with that one on a number of points.

1) The EBSIS was never actually of comparable strength to the forces of the RDF/ASC in the old RPG. What they were was strong enough that the RDF/ASC couldn't afford a full scale war without crippling their ability to defend the planet. As defending the planet was their primary responsibility, the RDF/ASC instead focused on containment and diplomatic solutions.

The EBSIS is the biggest threat on the planet: they directly attack UnF units, and they aid hostile Zentraedi; they interfere with four of the RDF's five purposes listed in the RDF Manual, and violate the proscription against protoculture.

The EBSIS isn't the biggest threat on the planet at the start of the Reconstruction era. The Zentraedi are. While the EBSIS interfere with the RDF, it is the Zentraedi who are the bigger, more immediate threat. By the time the Zentraedi are eliminated as the big threat, the EBSIS is established and entrenched so a war with them would be long and costly. Further, the political will to wage that war is lacking as war with the EBSIS would mean hundreds of thousands if not millions of human deaths. A toll too high in a world where humanity has come to the brink of extinction. So the UEG doesn't let the ASC off the chain against the EBSIS.

2) The EBSIS wasn't in a position to have a significant effect on the battles of the Second Robotech War as most of the action took place in Space and North America, two theatres where the EBSIS had little to no presence.

The EBSIS could make attacks on other areas; the possibility of a new theater is a big threat.

it is. However they can't make those attacks against the Robotech Masters (no space presence) so if they decide to attack anyone, the only option is the Southern Cross. However there are very good reasons for them not to.

1) The EBSIS may actually want the Southern Cross to win. While the EBSIS in the past has been known to work with the Zentraedi, the nature of that relationship was one in which the EBSIS did not give up control of their own destiny. Working with the Masters on the other hand means at best becoming the junior partner and the EBSIS doesn't want to take orders from anyone, especially aliens.

2) The war was a desperate fight to the finish. Perhaps the EBSIS felt that if they let the two powers weaken themselves to the point of exhaustion there would be no power strong enough to oppose them at the end of the war.

3) The EBSIS, while hostile, recognized that they could be wiped out by the ASC/RDF and so worked to avoid open warfare between itself and the ASC/RDF. Of course smaller nations had no such protection unless they abandoned their independence.

75-80 in "Random Encounters in the South American Sector" ("also applicable to the African Congo, and Asian Jungles") in the RDF Manual presents the possibility of an attack on sight by EBSIS forces; IINM, there are similar entries in tables in other books. Also, its indirect actions are not done with a great deal of subtlety; I don't believe that its theft, salvage, and support for hostile Zentraedi would be secret.

[/quote]

There is, and I am sure there would have been combat encounters between EBSIS and UEG forces. However as many (if not more) occurrences in the book have the EBSIS forces having other priorities that don't involve a fight with the players. I am also sure that EBSIS diplomats and their agents within the UEG media would spin any such incidents as the work of a rogue faction within their military or as being instigated by the UEG forces.

Ultimately, the UEG decided not to go to out and out war with the EBSIS not because they liked them or thought they could work together, but because that war was not worth fighting. The EBSIS pinpricks weren't enough to cause significant damage to UEG interests, but a direct confrontation with the EBSIS would either result in a weakening of the UEG forces to the point which they could no longer perform their primary duties or a mass extermination of human life. The UEG was not prepared to deal with the ethical or political consequences of such an act and so worked to ease tensions instead of fighting it out.

In the long term this strategy minimized the impact of the EBSIS on the UEG (what the UEG wanted) and allowed the EBSIS to exist (what the EBSIS wanted).

[Comrade Corsarius]

This assumes Un. = the US. Why should the USSR's hostility towards America put it outside Un.?

In general, it's because the books were written while the cold war was on. In the continuity, it appears that the EBSIS did contribute to the UN Spacy (Gloval is Russian, for example), but got a bit screwed over for whatever reason. My extrapolation is that the UN was unwilling to share the secrets of robotechnology, particularly protoculture, with a rapidly growing independent nation that did not want to really be part of it. To this extent, we can see a real-life analogue with France not being a military part of NATO, and abandoning the construction of the Eurofighter. Instead, the French do things their way militarily without having to answer to anyone (particularly not the UK or US), and have built the Rafale instead.

The EBSIS could make attacks on other areas; the possibility of a new theater is a big threat.

Possibly, but unlikely. The EBSIS lacked the power to overtly take over the planet even if they so desired. Instead they gained ground in south-east asia, parts of Africa, and what was left of Europe, while the UEG attempted to do the same in South America. In fact, it must be remembered that the EBSIS lost most of their zentraedi army fighting ROGUE zentraedi ON THEIR OWN in africa, without the UEG's assistance. For this, they gained a large foothold in East Africa and access to a great deal of oil.

75-80 in "Random Encounters in the South American Sector" ("also applicable to the African Congo, and Asian Jungles") in the RDF Manual presents the possibility of an attack on sight by EBSIS forces; IINM, there are similar entries in tables in other books. Also, its indirect actions are not done with a great deal of subtlety; I don't believe that its theft, salvage, and support for hostile Zentraedi would be secret.

The EBSIS supported a lot of things, largely so they could get a look at how protoculture worked. In my extrapolated continuity, I felt that the EBSIS gave the very best of their equipment to the UN Spacy (the AKG-47 55mm gunpod, for example), but got a flea in their ear as a return. Same with the CVS Iepatus: It's nowhere near as good as the other CVS ships available, but the UEG sold it to the soviets so they'd get off their back.

On the other hand, the EBSIS have a vested interest in protecting the earth, as much as anyone else. They certainly do NOT support rogue zentraedi, as this is made clear in books such as Strike Force, as well as Zentraedi Breakout, where the organisation of the ZCZ includes, operating amongst RDF and ASC troops, a wing of EBSIS fighter aircraft and ground troops.

I would expect that the soldiers of the ASC/RDF would be under orders to avoid allowing their precious mecha to be captured by the EBSIS, and that any EBSIS units trying to capture one would do so 'on the sly' with deniability. Remember that being attacked by EBSIS mecha is not the same as being attacked by the EBSIS themselves... they sold their stuff to just about anyone (although, IMO, they would do the typical soviet thing and sell 'down spec' versions to unallied clients, keeping the best for themselves).

[ESalter]

I strongly feel that the RPG needs a human enemy to round it out and add some variety.

IMO, fidelity to the source supersedes all else. (And is the source material is really that boring?)

It's not boring at all, but once all the material we see in the original source is represented, where is the room for the setting to expand and grow? The old West End Games Star Wars RPG was a great success not just because it gave you everything Star Wars but because it also expanded upon the setting, constantly giving new options.

But did it contradict the films? (And is there really no way to expand on Robotech without contradicting the series?)

As nothing in the series directly contradicts that there are unaligned nations that does give room for authors to work in new and interesting items, especially in the period between the first and second saga. That is an idea time for independant nations to first flourish, come into conflict with the UEG and eventually be checked.

Certainly, but that's not how the EBSIS is described.

At the time the original RDF Manual was written (1987) we had a very different world than we do today. In 1987 the Soviet Union was still potent and vital. Their military was potentially more powerful than all of NATO put together, their aircraft and tanks were believed to be at parity with contemporary Western designs and their economy showed no signs of imminent collapse. This was a world in which the Berlin Wall still stood, Soviet troops were in Afghanistan and Soviet Ballistic Missile Submarines were prowling the world's oceans.

So at the time, a Soviet Empire as Villain made a lot of sense.

March history forward a few years and suddenly the Soviet Union is gone, much of it's arsenal has been decommissioned, their weapon systems are pushing obsolescence, their economy in tatters and they are considered an ally in the Global War on Terror. Now casting the Soviets as the bad guys makes little sense because, quite frankly, there are no Soviets left.

This assumes Un. = the US. Why should the USSR's hostility towards America put it outside Un.?

Mostly because the authors of the RPG were American and assumed they would be part of the good guys (though not exclusively, in the RDF Manual major independent powers were to be found in North America as well). However there are a number of credible theories that can be made.

Personally I tinkered with the Global Civil War and it's role in shaping the pre-Robotech world. In that war the Americans and Soviets were apparently enemies, though a fair degree of the fighting may have been done through proxies. The war ended not with either side proclaiming victory, but with a truce necessitated by having to deal with bigger threats. So, up until first Robotech War, the Americans and Soviets were uneasy allies and frequent rivals.

In the wake of the war, radical factions seize power in the former Soviet Territories. Their propaganda machine blames the UEG for the war and the destruction it wrought. They remove themselves from the alliance and work to weaken it. This goes on for most of the decade following the global attack until ultimately the UEG manages to stabilize the world and force the EBSIS to back down from it's more aggressive policies. The EBSIS still grumbles loudly and maintains a large military, but knows enough not to wage a war it can't win.

That may be a reasonable origin for the EBSIS, but it's not the one Siembieda gave; I stand by my complaint on the chauvinism of placing the USSR outside of Un.

Another poster brought up the idea that it was impossible for an EBSIS that was comparable in power to the UEG to actually exist in the series. Such a faction would have significantly altered the conduct of the Second Robotech War and any faction too weak to have done so would simply have been destroyed by the UEG.

I have to disagree with that one on a number of points.

1) The EBSIS was never actually of comparable strength to the forces of the RDF/ASC in the old RPG. What they were was strong enough that the RDF/ASC couldn't afford a full scale war without crippling their ability to defend the planet. As defending the planet was their primary responsibility, the RDF/ASC instead focused on containment and diplomatic solutions.

The EBSIS is the biggest threat on the planet: they directly attack UnF units, and they aid hostile Zentraedi; they interfere with four of the RDF's five purposes listed in the RDF Manual, and violate the proscription against protoculture.

The EBSIS isn't the biggest threat on the planet at the start of the Reconstruction era. The Zentraedi are. While the EBSIS interfere with the RDF, it is the Zentraedi who are the bigger, more immediate threat. By the time the Zentraedi are eliminated as the big threat, the EBSIS is established and entrenched so a war with them would be long and costly. Further, the political will to wage that war is lacking as war with the EBSIS would mean hundreds of thousands if not millions of human deaths. A toll too high in a world where humanity has come to the brink of extinction. So the UEG doesn't let the ASC off the chain against the EBSIS.

The EBSIS is the Zentraedi threat; the EBSIS supports the Zentraedi. Since Zentraedi can neither build nor repair their own weapons, this is a force multiplier. The EBSIS also possesses its own Zentraedi battalion.
EBSIS theft and expansion threatens Un.'s integrity; since its technology is improving and territory expanding, it should be expected the threat will increase.
The EBSIS interferes with four out of five of the RDF's purposes and violates the proscription against protoculture.

2) The EBSIS wasn't in a position to have a significant effect on the battles of the Second Robotech War as most of the action took place in Space and North America, two theatres where the EBSIS had little to no presence.

The EBSIS could make attacks on other areas; the possibility of a new theater is a big threat.

it is. However they can't make those attacks against the Robotech Masters (no space presence) so if they decide to attack anyone, the only option is the Southern Cross. However there are very good reasons for them not to.

1) The EBSIS may actually want the Southern Cross to win. While the EBSIS in the past has been known to work with the Zentraedi, the nature of that relationship was one in which the EBSIS did not give up control of their own destiny. Working with the Masters on the other hand means at best becoming the junior partner and the EBSIS doesn't want to take orders from anyone, especially aliens.

Possibly, but it still would've been discussed by Un. military planners.

2) The war was a desperate fight to the finish. Perhaps the EBSIS felt that if they let the two powers weaken themselves to the point of exhaustion there would be no power strong enough to oppose them at the end of the war.

This supports my point: the existence of a third party waiting to kill the victor would've been a matter of discussion by both sides.

3) The EBSIS, while hostile, recognized that they could be wiped out by the ASC/RDF and so worked to avoid open warfare between itself and the ASC/RDF. Of course smaller nations had no such protection unless they abandoned their independence.

75-80 in "Random Encounters in the South American Sector" ("also applicable to the African Congo, and Asian Jungles") in the RDF Manual presents the possibility of an attack on sight by EBSIS forces; IINM, there are similar entries in tables in other books. Also, its indirect actions are not done with a great deal of subtlety; I don't believe that its theft, salvage, and support for hostile Zentraedi would be secret.

There is, and I am sure there would have been combat encounters between EBSIS and UEG forces. However as many (if not more) occurrences in the book have the EBSIS forces having other priorities that don't involve a fight with the players.

That EBSIS forces sometimes do other things, doesn't change that they attack Un. forces.

I am also sure that EBSIS diplomats and their agents within the UEG media would spin any such incidents as the work of a rogue faction within their military or as being instigated by the UEG forces.

Why would the UnG pay attention to such games?

Ultimately, the UEG decided not to go to out and out war with the EBSIS not because they liked them or thought they could work together, but because that war was not worth fighting. The EBSIS pinpricks weren't enough to cause significant damage to UEG interests, but a direct confrontation with the EBSIS would either result in a weakening of the UEG forces to the point which they could no longer perform their primary duties or a mass extermination of human life. The UEG was not prepared to deal with the ethical or political consequences of such an act and so worked to ease tensions instead of fighting it out.

The EBSIS kills, conquers, steals, and allies itself with hostile aliens; I don't consider those "tensions."

This assumes Un. = the US. Why should the USSR's hostility towards America put it outside Un.?

In general, it's because the books were written while the cold war was on. In the continuity, it appears that the EBSIS did contribute to the UN Spacy (Gloval is Russian, for example), but got a bit screwed over for whatever reason. My extrapolation is that the UN was unwilling to share the secrets of robotechnology, particularly protoculture, with a rapidly growing independent nation that did not want to really be part of it.

This argument assumes that the USSR was apart from the rest of the world to begin with.

To this extent, we can see a real-life analogue with France not being a military part of NATO, and abandoning the construction of the Eurofighter. Instead, the French do things their way militarily without having to answer to anyone (particularly not the UK or US), and have built the Rafale instead.

RL note: according to Wikipedia, France is part of NATO.

75-80 in "Random Encounters in the South American Sector" ("also applicable to the African Congo, and Asian Jungles") in the RDF Manual presents the possibility of an attack on sight by EBSIS forces; IINM, there are similar entries in tables in other books. Also, its indirect actions are not done with a great deal of subtlety; I don't believe that its theft, salvage, and support for hostile Zentraedi would be secret.

The EBSIS supported a lot of things, largely so they could get a look at how protoculture worked. In my extrapolated continuity, I felt that the EBSIS gave the very best of their equipment to the UN Spacy (the AKG-47 55mm gunpod, for example), but got a flea in their ear as a return. Same with the CVS Iepatus: It's nowhere near as good as the other CVS ships available, but the UEG sold it to the soviets so they'd get off their back.

Again, the USSR is portrayed as apart from the rest of Earth.

On the other hand, the EBSIS have a vested interest in protecting the earth, as much as anyone else. They certainly do NOT support rogue zentraedi...

From the RDF Manual, p. 29:

The R.D.F. has recently discovered E.B.S.I.S. covert operations in the South American Sector supporting the Zentraedi rebels and high-tech bandits.

I think I recall one or two other mentions in other books.

...as this is made clear in books such as Strike Force, as well as Zentraedi Breakout....

The RPG's inconsistency is one of my complaints.

I would expect that the soldiers of the ASC/RDF would be under orders to avoid allowing their precious mecha to be captured by the EBSIS, and that any EBSIS units trying to capture one would do so 'on the sly' with deniability.

The acquisition strategy described on p. 29 of the RDF Manual (for example) is not secret.

Remember that being attacked by EBSIS mecha is not the same as being attacked by the EBSIS themselves... they sold their stuff to just about anyone.

That would not be an argument in their favor.

(although, IMO, they would do the typical soviet thing and sell 'down spec' versions to unallied clients, keeping the best for themselves).

RL note: I assume that's universal for any seller of high-tech weapons.

[SailorCallie]

I strongly feel that the RPG needs a human enemy to round it out and add some variety.

IMO, fidelity to the source supersedes all else. (And is the source material is really that boring?)

It's not boring at all, but once all the material we see in the original source is represented, where is the room for the setting to expand and grow? The old West End Games Star Wars RPG was a great success not just because it gave you everything Star Wars but because it also expanded upon the setting, constantly giving new options.

But did it contradict the films? (And is there really no way to expand on Robotech without contradicting the series?)

As nothing in the series directly contradicts that there are unaligned nations that does give room for authors to work in new and interesting items, especially in the period between the first and second saga. That is an idea time for independant nations to first flourish, come into conflict with the UEG and eventually be checked.

Certainly, but that's not how the EBSIS is described.

At the time the original RDF Manual was written (1987) we had a very different world than we do today. In 1987 the Soviet Union was still potent and vital. Their military was potentially more powerful than all of NATO put together, their aircraft and tanks were believed to be at parity with contemporary Western designs and their economy showed no signs of imminent collapse. This was a world in which the Berlin Wall still stood, Soviet troops were in Afghanistan and Soviet Ballistic Missile Submarines were prowling the world's oceans.

So at the time, a Soviet Empire as Villain made a lot of sense.

March history forward a few years and suddenly the Soviet Union is gone, much of it's arsenal has been decommissioned, their weapon systems are pushing obsolescence, their economy in tatters and they are considered an ally in the Global War on Terror. Now casting the Soviets as the bad guys makes little sense because, quite frankly, there are no Soviets left.

This assumes Un. = the US. Why should the USSR's hostility towards America put it outside Un.?

Mostly because the authors of the RPG were American and assumed they would be part of the good guys (though not exclusively, in the RDF Manual major independent powers were to be found in North America as well). However there are a number of credible theories that can be made.

Personally I tinkered with the Global Civil War and it's role in shaping the pre-Robotech world. In that war the Americans and Soviets were apparently enemies, though a fair degree of the fighting may have been done through proxies. The war ended not with either side proclaiming victory, but with a truce necessitated by having to deal with bigger threats. So, up until first Robotech War, the Americans and Soviets were uneasy allies and frequent rivals.

In the wake of the war, radical factions seize power in the former Soviet Territories. Their propaganda machine blames the UEG for the war and the destruction it wrought. They remove themselves from the alliance and work to weaken it. This goes on for most of the decade following the global attack until ultimately the UEG manages to stabilize the world and force the EBSIS to back down from it's more aggressive policies. The EBSIS still grumbles loudly and maintains a large military, but knows enough not to wage a war it can't win.

That may be a reasonable origin for the EBSIS, but it's not the one Siembieda gave; I stand by my complaint on the chauvinism of placing the USSR outside of Un.

Another poster brought up the idea that it was impossible for an EBSIS that was comparable in power to the UEG to actually exist in the series. Such a faction would have significantly altered the conduct of the Second Robotech War and any faction too weak to have done so would simply have been destroyed by the UEG.

I have to disagree with that one on a number of points.

1) The EBSIS was never actually of comparable strength to the forces of the RDF/ASC in the old RPG. What they were was strong enough that the RDF/ASC couldn't afford a full scale war without crippling their ability to defend the planet. As defending the planet was their primary responsibility, the RDF/ASC instead focused on containment and diplomatic solutions.

The EBSIS is the biggest threat on the planet: they directly attack UnF units, and they aid hostile Zentraedi; they interfere with four of the RDF's five purposes listed in the RDF Manual, and violate the proscription against protoculture.

The EBSIS isn't the biggest threat on the planet at the start of the Reconstruction era. The Zentraedi are. While the EBSIS interfere with the RDF, it is the Zentraedi who are the bigger, more immediate threat. By the time the Zentraedi are eliminated as the big threat, the EBSIS is established and entrenched so a war with them would be long and costly. Further, the political will to wage that war is lacking as war with the EBSIS would mean hundreds of thousands if not millions of human deaths. A toll too high in a world where humanity has come to the brink of extinction. So the UEG doesn't let the ASC off the chain against the EBSIS.

The EBSIS is the Zentraedi threat; the EBSIS supports the Zentraedi. Since Zentraedi can neither build nor repair their own weapons, this is a force multiplier. The EBSIS also possesses its own Zentraedi battalion.
EBSIS theft and expansion threatens Un.'s integrity; since its technology is improving and territory expanding, it should be expected the threat will increase.
The EBSIS interferes with four out of five of the RDF's purposes and violates the proscription against protoculture.

2) The EBSIS wasn't in a position to have a significant effect on the battles of the Second Robotech War as most of the action took place in Space and North America, two theatres where the EBSIS had little to no presence.

The EBSIS could make attacks on other areas; the possibility of a new theater is a big threat.

it is. However they can't make those attacks against the Robotech Masters (no space presence) so if they decide to attack anyone, the only option is the Southern Cross. However there are very good reasons for them not to.

1) The EBSIS may actually want the Southern Cross to win. While the EBSIS in the past has been known to work with the Zentraedi, the nature of that relationship was one in which the EBSIS did not give up control of their own destiny. Working with the Masters on the other hand means at best becoming the junior partner and the EBSIS doesn't want to take orders from anyone, especially aliens.

Possibly, but it still would've been discussed by Un. military planners.

2) The war was a desperate fight to the finish. Perhaps the EBSIS felt that if they let the two powers weaken themselves to the point of exhaustion there would be no power strong enough to oppose them at the end of the war.

This supports my point: the existence of a third party waiting to kill the victor would've been a matter of discussion by both sides.

3) The EBSIS, while hostile, recognized that they could be wiped out by the ASC/RDF and so worked to avoid open warfare between itself and the ASC/RDF. Of course smaller nations had no such protection unless they abandoned their independence.

75-80 in "Random Encounters in the South American Sector" ("also applicable to the African Congo, and Asian Jungles") in the RDF Manual presents the possibility of an attack on sight by EBSIS forces; IINM, there are similar entries in tables in other books. Also, its indirect actions are not done with a great deal of subtlety; I don't believe that its theft, salvage, and support for hostile Zentraedi would be secret.

There is, and I am sure there would have been combat encounters between EBSIS and UEG forces. However as many (if not more) occurrences in the book have the EBSIS forces having other priorities that don't involve a fight with the players.

That EBSIS forces sometimes do other things, doesn't change that they attack Un. forces.

I am also sure that EBSIS diplomats and their agents within the UEG media would spin any such incidents as the work of a rogue faction within their military or as being instigated by the UEG forces.

Why would the UnG pay attention to such games?

Ultimately, the UEG decided not to go to out and out war with the EBSIS not because they liked them or thought they could work together, but because that war was not worth fighting. The EBSIS pinpricks weren't enough to cause significant damage to UEG interests, but a direct confrontation with the EBSIS would either result in a weakening of the UEG forces to the point which they could no longer perform their primary duties or a mass extermination of human life. The UEG was not prepared to deal with the ethical or political consequences of such an act and so worked to ease tensions instead of fighting it out.

The EBSIS kills, conquers, steals, and allies itself with hostile aliens; I don't consider those "tensions."

This assumes Un. = the US. Why should the USSR's hostility towards America put it outside Un.?

In general, it's because the books were written while the cold war was on. In the continuity, it appears that the EBSIS did contribute to the UN Spacy (Gloval is Russian, for example), but got a bit screwed over for whatever reason. My extrapolation is that the UN was unwilling to share the secrets of robotechnology, particularly protoculture, with a rapidly growing independent nation that did not want to really be part of it.

This argument assumes that the USSR was apart from the rest of the world to begin with.

To this extent, we can see a real-life analogue with France not being a military part of NATO, and abandoning the construction of the Eurofighter. Instead, the French do things their way militarily without having to answer to anyone (particularly not the UK or US), and have built the Rafale instead.

RL note: according to Wikipedia, France is part of NATO.

75-80 in "Random Encounters in the South American Sector" ("also applicable to the African Congo, and Asian Jungles") in the RDF Manual presents the possibility of an attack on sight by EBSIS forces; IINM, there are similar entries in tables in other books. Also, its indirect actions are not done with a great deal of subtlety; I don't believe that its theft, salvage, and support for hostile Zentraedi would be secret.

The EBSIS supported a lot of things, largely so they could get a look at how protoculture worked. In my extrapolated continuity, I felt that the EBSIS gave the very best of their equipment to the UN Spacy (the AKG-47 55mm gunpod, for example), but got a flea in their ear as a return. Same with the CVS Iepatus: It's nowhere near as good as the other CVS ships available, but the UEG sold it to the soviets so they'd get off their back.

Again, the USSR is portrayed as apart from the rest of Earth.

On the other hand, the EBSIS have a vested interest in protecting the earth, as much as anyone else. They certainly do NOT support rogue zentraedi...

From the RDF Manual, p. 29:

The R.D.F. has recently discovered E.B.S.I.S. covert operations in the South American Sector supporting the Zentraedi rebels and high-tech bandits.

I think I recall one or two other mentions in other books.

...as this is made clear in books such as Strike Force, as well as Zentraedi Breakout....

The RPG's inconsistency is one of my complaints.

I would expect that the soldiers of the ASC/RDF would be under orders to avoid allowing their precious mecha to be captured by the EBSIS, and that any EBSIS units trying to capture one would do so 'on the sly' with deniability.

The acquisition strategy described on p. 29 of the RDF Manual (for example) is not secret.

Remember that being attacked by EBSIS mecha is not the same as being attacked by the EBSIS themselves... they sold their stuff to just about anyone.

That would not be an argument in their favor.

(although, IMO, they would do the typical soviet thing and sell 'down spec' versions to unallied clients, keeping the best for themselves).

RL note: I assume that's universal for any seller of high-tech weapons.

Next month marks the 20th anniversary of the dissolution of the USSR and the re-birth of Russia as we know today. Even I'm not sure if the EBSIS of Soviet Russia still exists in the Tommy Yune-rebooted timeline as far as I know.

[Jefffar]

But did it contradict the films? (And is there really no way to expand on Robotech without contradicting the series?)

It didn't significantly contradict the films (at least no more than Lucas himself did with the reboot). As for room to expand on Robotech without contradicting the series, there is plenty. There is more than a decade of off-screen developments between the end of Macross and the start of Master's Saga. Likewise there is a similarly large span between the end of Master's Saga and the start of New Generation.

That makes a lot of room for action to occur in. In fact, most of my games are based during those periods rather than during the actual time periods seen on screen.

Certainly, but that's not how the EBSIS is described.

A lot of things got modified in the RPG reboot. While an EBSIS that fits the new game may not be the exact same as the EBSIS of old, there certainly is a space for it.

That may be a reasonable origin for the EBSIS, but it's not the one Siembieda gave; I stand by my complaint on the chauvinism of placing the USSR outside of Un.

Siembieda gave very few details on the origin of the EBSIS. All that is known is that they were in existence at the end of the Global Civil War and continued to exist until the arrival of the Invid. The relationship between them and the UEG seems to be complicated. On one hand they are given one of the CVS class vessels and are seen combating Zentraedi forces. On the other the EBSIS wages a limited war against the UEG through a variety of proxies.

The EBSIS is the Zentraedi threat; the EBSIS supports the Zentraedi. Since Zentraedi can neither build nor repair their own weapons, this is a force multiplier. The EBSIS also possesses its own Zentraedi battalion.
EBSIS theft and expansion threatens Un.'s integrity; since its technology is improving and territory expanding, it should be expected the threat will increase.
The EBSIS interferes with four out of five of the RDF's purposes and violates the proscription against protoculture.

Incorrect. While there are Zentraedi who work for the EBSIS, there are also Zentraedi who work for the UEG forces (Breetai, Exedore, Myria . . .) and other baronies (ie the SASTRAC nations) so that of itself is not an issue. The EBSIS does have a number of proxy Zentraedi forces that they support, however they don't support all Zentraedi with a grudge against the UEG. For example the EBSIS was involved in a significant war in the Indochina quadrant against the Zentreadi. Also, the same encounter table you've cited that has an EBSIS force attacking the characters on sight also has an EBSIS force establishing a base to engage in combat operations against the Zentraedi.

So while the EBSIS supported and worked with some Zentraedi, the EBSIS are not running the entire Zentraedi resistance (and probably not even a large fraction of it). A lot of the Zentraedi hate all humans, not just those who work with the UEG.

The EBSIS is definitely a rival and a competitor, but as I mentioned above, their relationship with the UEG is very complicated.

Possibly, but it still would've been discussed by Un. military planners.

Possibly, however they may have (rightly guessed) that the EBSIS would be a non-factor in this war.

This supports my point: the existence of a third party waiting to kill the victor would've been a matter of discussion by both sides.

Or perhaps the ASC didn't really care about the next threat when they had to survive this threat first? Also the Masters may not have recognized the EBSIS as independent of the UEG, they were aliens after all.

That EBSIS forces sometimes do other things, doesn't change that they attack Un. forces.

Yep, they (and more frequently their proxies) do attack UEG forces. They also attack Zentraedi forces too. The relationship between the EBSIS and UEG is complicated.

Why would the UnG pay attention to such games?

Because, as troublesome as the EBSIS was, they were the lesser problem when compared to the alien issue. Further, an all out war with the EBSIS would have resulted in the one thing that the UEG wanted to avoid above all, large numbers of human deaths and the weakening of the UEG's military forces in the face of current and future alien threats.

In short, the UEG politicians weren't willing to go to war and the EBSIS knew it.

The EBSIS kills, conquers, steals, and allies itself with hostile aliens; I don't consider those "tensions."

The EBSIS also helps protect the planet from other hostile aliens and keeps a large number of humans fed and housed. Their provocations were always done in a way calculated to give the maximum advantage to the EBSIS without pushing the UEG hard enough to break their self-imposed restraint on going to war with human nations.

[Chris0013]

There should be something akin to the EBSIS/AUL around after the RoD up to the Invid Invasion.....re use some of the original mecha from Strikeforce or RoTM as mecha for them.

Maybe after the fiasco in the comic series they went underground but were still working on stealing designs and producing their own mecha until such time as they had an opening to make a power play and then the RoD happened and they used it to get control of certain areas rich in natural resources and carve out their own territories.

Use the EBSIS field plate armor, The Light Insurgence Battloid (as a new Recon Destroyer), The Gladius (as a new Juggernaut), use the RL-2 weapon pod as a 30mm gun pod, and so forth.

[Defender_X]

Another twist that we could add, the EBSIS could have been a big supporter of the Pioneer mission/UEEF but still have the love/hate relationship with the UEG and ASC. And we could also add that they attempted a 'third way' sort of thing if you want to draw on the Cold War for historical references. And the post-Invid survivors are in the 'forget you guys, I'm going home.' mode. So not too friendly either. Just my opinion, don't go spreading it around...

[Jefffar]

There seems to be a fair degree of co-operation between EBSIS and UEG prior to the Zentraedi war (you don't exactly give away your prototype submersible aircraft carrier to just anyone and soviet design elements can be found in a number of early UEG aircraft) so it is reasonable to assume that the EBSIS did support the idea of the UEG forces defending the Earth the Earth from invading aliens.

Things only turned actively hostile after that defence of earth more or less failed (70% casualties world wide), however, lacking their own space presence, the EBSIS, for all their bluster, may still have been relying on the UEG forces to protect Earth from exterior threats. This may have been one of the other factors that stopped them from crossing the line to out and out war.

Ultimately the EBSIS seems to have kept it's provocations within a band that was viewed as the lesser of two evils by the UEG.

[Chris0013]

Another twist that we could add, the EBSIS could have been a big supporter of the Pioneer mission/UEEF but still have the love/hate relationship with the UEG and ASC. And we could also add that they attempted a 'third way' sort of thing if you want to draw on the Cold War for historical references. And the post-Invid survivors are in the 'forget you guys, I'm going home.' mode. So not too friendly either. Just my opinion, don't go spreading it around...

Possibly even supporting the UEEF expedition to find colonies that they would stack their people onto to push for independence from the UEG.

[Defender_X]

Another twist that we could add, the EBSIS could have been a big supporter of the Pioneer mission/UEEF but still have the love/hate relationship with the UEG and ASC. And we could also add that they attempted a 'third way' sort of thing if you want to draw on the Cold War for historical references. And the post-Invid survivors are in the 'forget you guys, I'm going home.' mode. So not too friendly either. Just my opinion, don't go spreading it around...

Possibly even supporting the UEEF expedition to find colonies that they would stack their people onto to push for independence from the UEG.

That and maybe even encouraging other colonies that the UEG government on Earth doesn't have their best interest at heart. And add the risk that the colonies have the same view of them too. Given some of the potential views that PCs could have on Earth from chargen, it could explain the lack of support from the colonies during the war with the Masters. That and the UEEF's war with the Invid was a higher priority to the colonies.

[ESalter]

That may be a reasonable origin for the EBSIS, but it's not the one Siembieda gave; I stand by my complaint on the chauvinism of placing the USSR outside of Un.

Siembieda gave very few details on the origin of the EBSIS. All that is known is that they were in existence at the end of the Global Civil War and continued to exist until the arrival of the Invid.

The reason no details are given is because he thought none were necessary: the Soviets are hostile to America, Un. is America, the EBSIS is hostile to Un.

The relationship between them and the UEG seems to be complicated. On one hand they are given one of the CVS class vessels...

"As part of a diplomatic overture...in the fall of 2008," which is a failure. The Soviets are alien from the beginning.

...and are seen combating Zentraedi forces.

I do not see the sharing of a common enemy as a "relationship."

The EBSIS is the Zentraedi threat; the EBSIS supports the Zentraedi. Since Zentraedi can neither build nor repair their own weapons, this is a force multiplier. The EBSIS also possesses its own Zentraedi battalion.
EBSIS theft and expansion threatens Un.'s integrity; since its technology is improving and territory expanding, it should be expected the threat will increase.
The EBSIS interferes with four out of five of the RDF's purposes and violates the proscription against protoculture.

Incorrect. While there are Zentraedi who work for the EBSIS, there are also Zentraedi who work for the UEG forces (Breetai, Exedore, Myria . . .) and other baronies (ie the SASTRAC nations) so that of itself is not an issue. The EBSIS does have a number of proxy Zentraedi forces that they support, however they don't support all Zentraedi with a grudge against the UEG. For example the EBSIS was involved in a significant war in the Indochina quadrant against the Zentreadi. Also, the same encounter table you've cited that has an EBSIS force attacking the characters on sight also has an EBSIS force establishing a base to engage in combat operations against the Zentraedi.

So while the EBSIS supported and worked with some Zentraedi, the EBSIS are not running the entire Zentraedi resistance (and probably not even a large fraction of it). A lot of the Zentraedi hate all humans, not just those who work with the UEG.

The EBSIS is definitely a rival and a competitor, but as I mentioned above, their relationship with the UEG is very complicated.

RDF Manual, pp. 29-30:

It is also certain that E.B.S.I.S. advisors have been aiding the Zentraedi in the South American Sector in their crusade against the RDF and the fragmenting United Nations World Government. This aid largely consists of Zentraedi mecha repair and reconstruction....Recently, the E.B.S.I.S. submitted a proposal suggesting that the sector be declared an independent Zentraedi nation.

Possibly, but it still would've been discussed by Un. military planners.

Possibly, however they may have (rightly guessed) that the EBSIS would be a non-factor in this war.

This supports my point: the existence of a third party waiting to kill the victor would've been a matter of discussion by both sides.

Or perhaps the ASC didn't really care about the next threat when they had to survive this threat first? Also the Masters may not have recognized the EBSIS as independent of the UEG, they were aliens after all.

The existence of a powerful third party is a narrative element that should be specifically introduced. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

Why would the UnG pay attention to such games?

Because, as troublesome as the EBSIS was, they were the lesser problem when compared to the alien issue.

The EBSIS is the alien issue. The Zentraedi's greatest weakness is inability to repair mecha; the EBSIS is making that up.

Further, an all out war with the EBSIS would have resulted in the one thing that the UEG wanted to avoid above all, large numbers of human deaths and the weakening of the UEG's military forces in the face of current and future alien threats.

Allowing themselves to attacked and robbed with impunity by an expansionary power is weakening.

Their provocations were always done in a way calculated to give the maximum advantage to the EBSIS without pushing the UEG hard enough to break their self-imposed restraint on going to war with human nations.

I see no evidence of calculation.

[Jefffar]

The reason no details are given is because he thought none were necessary: the Soviets are hostile to America, Un. is America, the EBSIS is hostile to Un.

I could see the Soviet Union, or a successor state with similar political leanings being hostile to a United Earth Government. Remember the United Earth Government isn't the United Nations. The United Earth Government had its own military, the ability to levy taxes on member states and some influence on their foreign and domestic policies. A soviet state committed to worldwide revolution would probably would view a worldwide government as the enemy.

"As part of a diplomatic overture...in the fall of 2008," which is a failure. The Soviets are alien from the beginning.

But not so alien that they can't be bargained with.

I do not see the sharing of a common enemy as a "relationship."

I don't either, but it is a common ground to work from.

RDF Manual, pp. 29-30:

It is also certain that E.B.S.I.S. advisors have been aiding the Zentraedi in the South American Sector in their crusade against the RDF and the fragmenting United Nations World Government. This aid largely consists of Zentraedi mecha repair and reconstruction....Recently, the E.B.S.I.S. submitted a proposal suggesting that the sector be declared an independent Zentraedi nation.

If the EBSIS has no relationship with the UEG how did they submit a proposal? More importantly why did they submit a proposal? Things are more complicated here than you think.

The existence of a powerful third party is a narrative element that should be specifically introduced. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

or we jsut didnt' get to see the scenes where it would have been discussed. We have relatively few scenes featuring politicians and they had more immediate concerns weighing on their minds at the time.

The EBSIS is the alien issue. The Zentraedi's greatest weakness is inability to repair mecha; the EBSIS is making that up.

The Zentraedi started off with the salvaged remains of millions of warships and billions of mecha. From those they had more than adequate spares to pose a threat for several years. EBSIS involvement may have made those spares go further, but ultimately it was the large am mounts of aliens and their war machines that crashed on the planet that was the primary threat, not the EBSIS.

Allowing themselves to attacked and robbed with impunity by an expansionary power is weakening.

Who said it was happening with impunity? Just because offensive war against the EBSIS didn't occur it doesn't mean that the UEG forces didn't defend themselves or attempt to recover stolen mecha when the encountered it. The UEG, like the EBSIS, stopped short of forcing a war, but didn't just lay down and take it.

I see no evidence of calculation.

Because the ones making the calculation didn't get enough screen time to talk about it.

[glitterboy2098]

underground, yes the old EBSIS no longer exists. we all agree about that.

what we are discussing now is the fact that there is nothing in the show or new RPG that doesn't allow a '2nd earth faction' of some type to exist as an antagonist to the UEG. as long as it is created so it can pluasibly exist entire "off screen", such a group would no contradict the show, rather it would expand the playable RPG setting. in much the same way that the upcoming New Generations book, Genesis pits book, and marines book add original concepts and materials never seen on the show, but which filling the gaps left by all the things we never saw on screen.

since many of us actually liked the old RPG's EBSIS, non-canon though they may have been, we would prefer to take the still useful elements we liked from it (the heavy Eastern European cultural flavor, the conventionally powered battloid concept, allied zentreadi, and so on), modify them to fit the new RPG's reality, and discard the rest.

[Seto Kaiba]

At this stage, the thread needs to overtly evolve past "Yes the E.B.S.I.S. can exist" and "No it doesn't have a place", to the next stage.

Well, it's actually more complex than that... because, so long as we're entertaining the idea that Palladium's "take" on the Robotech universe is a valid one (or rather, bound by the forum-specific rules that say it is regardless of evidence to the contrary), we're dealing with a question that has more than one "correct" answer.

To tie into what The Underground said herein...

No, first you need to know: Does it still exist "at all"?
E.B.S.I.S. was created by Palladium, not Harmony Gold or Tatsunoko, so by extension with the retcon, it doesn't.
No, that's NOT the answer I want to give, but its the truest answer.

Edited by Seto Kaiba for clarity, with special attention to preserving the original poster's meaning and structure.

... the answer is largely contingent on what criteria we apply to the question. Basically, it's a matter of which of the popular definitions of canon we're applying and whether the actual question refers to the current official continuity or one of the unofficial "alternate universes" to which most of the licensee-created material belongs.

Since we've already lapsed into a Schrodinger's Cat-style situation where it's possible to be both right AND wrong with the same answer, I suppose it doesn't hurt to point out that the answer given by The Underground would be right if the OP were talking about RT's current official continuity. Therein lies the catch... Comrade Corsarius made his inquiry specific to the "Palladium Robotech universe"... one of the unofficial alternate Robotech universes.

That in mind, Jefffar phrased the best reply to the original question... "Is E.B.S.I.S. still viable [in the RPG]?". The answer is yes. The text of the "new" edition doesn't come right out and confirm or deny its existence, but it leaves openings and adventure hooks in which the idea of E.B.S.I.S. or a similar force is a viable narrative option without the need to bend the setting materials in the game book(s) until they resemble a slinky.

Courtesy of the current official continuity, we don't even have to look far for signs of any Anti-UEG activity or sentiment in the post-Macross Saga setting. After all, there are two highly-placed Anti-Unification League operatives active in the UEG forces as late as 2044: Commander Leonard and General Edwards. If that isn't a hook screaming for an Anti-UEG story, I don't know what is.

[FreelancerMar]

Perhaps WWIII or the GCW happened because there were many nations did not want to be a part of the UEG in the first place and infact did not want a UEG to exist at all.

Hypothetical series of events.(As of 1st edition Rpg Stuff)
Idea of UEG is Born
Many Like Minded Nations join to form the UEG
The Soviets Decline to Join and threaten Retaliation if pushed(AUL-EBSIS is born)
Other Nations that do not Like UEG policies and do not want to be a part of or be Swallowed up by the UEG Join the AUL and ask the Soviets for aid.
Soviets agree to provide Military aid on the condition that they submit to soviet rule thereby joining the EBSIS.
Neither the UEG or EBSIS are willing to budge an inch.
A Military International incident happns and sparks WWIII of the GCW.
SDF-01 Crashes and the events of Robotech happen from there.

[Colonel Wolfe]

FLM, I had a similar idea, but it more involved the escalation of the cold war after the Assignation of Reagan succeed in 1981. Bush handled the Cold-War Differently, and WW3 started in the middle east and caused the UN to become a UEG... I used elements form the Graphic novel and other back-gorund hints in the story.. sadly these files were on a zip drive my kid flushed. My EBSIS is formed in 2032ish. when the UEG has fallen, and 90% of invid activity is in north and south america.

[Chris0013]

All the above having been said, I am still curious about one thing you mentioned at the end. What proof is there that A.U.L. style foes exist in current canon anyhow?

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh.............. good question.......
what IF the au's dont exist?!?!?!

I believe it is referenced in From The Stars.

edit....Just looked at it again...The AUL is in canon. Leonard and Edwards are members of it as well as infiltrated highly in the UEG. Their positions would give them access to mecha designs and advancements that could be forwarded to engineers in the AUL.

I stand by my idea that after the events in From The Stars the AUL went underground and are producing their own equipment / mecha and biding their time....the RoD would be the perfect example of "Never let a serious crisis go to waste."

[Comrade Corsarius]

Perhaps WWIII or the GCW happened because there were many nations did not want to be a part of the UEG in the first place and infact did not want a UEG to exist at all.

Hypothetical series of events.(As of 1st edition Rpg Stuff)
Idea of UEG is Born
Many Like Minded Nations join to form the UEG
The Soviets Decline to Join and threaten Retaliation if pushed(AUL-EBSIS is born)
Other Nations that do not Like UEG policies and do not want to be a part of or be Swallowed up by the UEG Join the AUL and ask the Soviets for aid.
Soviets agree to provide Military aid on the condition that they submit to soviet rule thereby joining the EBSIS.
Neither the UEG or EBSIS are willing to budge an inch.
A Military International incident happns and sparks WWIII of the GCW.
SDF-01 Crashes and the events of Robotech happen from there.

Almost precisely as I imagined it.

From there, the two superpowers eye one another suspiciously, but create a unified force to investigate this new ship and threat. The EBSIS provides early technological assistance and troops, but really in the end only pays lip service as the UEG takes more control of the UN Spacy through a variety of political coups and alliances. I would expect the EBSIS to be effective (although minor) members of the UEG right up to the rain of death, upon which the surviving politburo went 'screw this, you guys didn't succeed, we're going to do things OUR way, and you didn't give us some of the stuff you said you were going to anyway, like info on that funny plant you're always on about'.

[glitterboy2098]

i've always been of the impression that the UEG developed after the SDF-1 crashed, as part of a knee-jerk "oh ****, there are highly advanced hostile aliens out there" and "by comparison to this exenstential threat, our fighting over [politics/money/land/etc] seems pretty petty"

WW3 i can buy as having started small and escalating due to treaties and alliances, just like WW1 and WW2. personally, in the old RPG i generally assumed that the fall of the Soviet union didn't occur the way it did in real life, and assumed the "old guard" actually put up a fight, creating a soviet civil war which sucked in other nations as they threw in with one or the other faction. (Pro-reform side vs soviet hardliners) frankly, it wouldn't have taken much to get this in real life.
you'd get the same kind of splintering of the soviet union, it just would have been a lot bloodier. even nations that would want ot stay out of the civil war directly (like the US), would still be doing peacekeeping operations in places like Bosnia and some of the splinter nations..

placing the start of WW3 back in the early 90's also helps explain the different hardware (many of the fighters seen in the flashback are similar to late 70's early 80's concepts.. any change that allows ww3 in the 90's means events farther back to change the conditions in military procurment.), and why China seems to be a political non-entity in robotech (back then, they hadn't become quite the same industrial superpower they are now)

[taalismn]

Even if the UEG existed prior to the SDF-1 crashland, it wasn't known as the UEG, but was more likely a loose alliance of mutual cooperation treaties tying older more established organizations like NATO.
The SDF-1 put real urgency and teeth into the need for a global organization. Naturally, there were those who saw this as an excuse for the old established powers to throw their weight around and declare martial law, or for the upstart liberals to go in and settle old scores with the traditional nationalist blocs in the name of 'global security'. They(the larger groups) ironically unify into the AUEG(one wonders if they'd actually WON, would they have stayed unified, or stuck together to make sure that nobody ELSE got the idea of unifying everybody).

[Seto Kaiba]

Then, by extension, EVERY group mentioned "exists", and then you've created a precedent that no group mentioned doesn't exist. [...]
If it's not detailed by Harmony Gold under the current rules, it can't exist. (Nothing says Palladium can't go to Harmony Gold and say "Hey, dude, would you just sign off on this and make my life a little easier?" but until they do, it doesn't.)

Edited to Hell and back by Seto Kaiba for readability.

Please, for my sake, turn the spell-check feature in your browser on. If you're not sure how to, feel free to shoot me a PM and I'll happily talk you through it.

Warning: We just had an issue in a whole other thread regarding negative commentary about forum member's written English skills. Lets not start that here

Anyway... to me, it seems like you've rather missed the point of having a role-playing game. Yes, the game is intended to replicate the setting of the Robotech series. Nobody is denying that. The point of the game is, however, not to just faithfully replicate the events and settings of what little official canon material exists for Robotech... it's to allow the players (and GM) to create and explore their own stories in the Robotech universe. There's no "RPG Police" waiting in the wings to kneecap players for taking their stories in new and different directions. Palladium's books aren't a story that's set on rails and can only be used one way, they're a collection of tools and set pieces you can use to tell and explore your own Robotech story.

If you want to run a 100% canon-compliant game, you can... but there's no rule saying that you have to. As I said in my earlier reply, we're not talking about Robotech's current official continuity. We're talking about a set piece that could be used in fan-made stories for the role-playing game. The RPG isn't canon anyway, so it hardly matters. There's nothing saying that EBSIS or an EBSIS-like faction couldn't exist within the confines of the RPG, so it IS a viable narrative option.

I actually had a somewhat involved response to Seto Kaiba about his specific points

And you didn't post it? You're breakin' my heart.

All the above having been said, I am still curious about one thing you mentioned at the end. What proof is there that A.U.L. style foes exist in current canon anyhow?

Eh, at the risk of stating the obvious... the post-reboot (Wildstorm) comics are canon, and a part of the current official Robotech continuity. They were, by in large, the initial instrument for carrying out the reboot of the Robotech continuity. As per Harmony Gold's specific remarks on the matter, the Wildstorm comics are the ONLY ones that count for anything in the rebooted continuity. They're very definitely and unambiguously canon, and in some cases are integral to what they're trying to do with the ongoing story (e.g. Prelude).

Basically, where did you get the idea form that these two individuals are both part of an organization that has never existed in Robotech, but is instead a Macross and Macross Zero creation instead? What did I miss here Seto?

Apparently what you missed was an entire limited comic series... "From the Stars".

Also, there is no "Anti-Unification League" in Macross. The name of the original organization on which Robotech's version of things is based is the "Anti-UN Alliance". Robotech's version is kind of toothless by comparison... however, the above-mentioned miniseries identifies Leonard and Edwards as highly-placed Anti-Unification League agents who were operating within the United Earth Forces' most secret development programs. (To such an extent that they were able to sabotage development of the VF-1 and hijack Armor-1 to use its reflex warheads in an intended coup d'etat.)

All the above having been said, I am still curious about one thing you mentioned at the end. What proof is there that A.U.L. style foes exist in current canon anyhow?

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh.............. good question.......
what IF the au's dont exist?!?!?!

But they do... they're pretty much the crux of the entire plot in the "From the Stars" miniseries, which is 100% verified as canon by Harmony Gold. The Anti-Unification League most definitely exists in Robotech.

[Tiree]

Didn't someone theorize that the AUL was in fact certain factions of the United States. Born from the distrust with the United Nations.

It would give the AUL enough teeth if the US was actually backing, via leaked information.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Didn't someone theorize that the AUL was in fact certain factions of the United States. Born from the distrust with the United Nations.

It would give the AUL enough teeth if the US was actually backing, via leaked information.

in the Graphic novel, it could be interpreted that the US may have divided in WW3. or was invaded.

[Jefffar]

I theorized a while back that the AUL and other anti UEG factions were a pretty diverse collection of governments, religious extremists, anarchists and libertarians. It is definitely possible that certain elements of the American population would be militantly against the transformation of a United Nations into a United Earth Government.

This is why I like the title Global Civil War for the period surrounding the rise of the UEG. While there would have been conventional war between some countries, there also would have been civil wars and revolutions in many other countries.

In many ways, I envision the Global Civil War not as one unified conflict, but as all the conflicts of the 1990s and early 20th century amplified and a few extra ones thrown in and the term Global Civil War given to describe the period, not the conflict.

[FreelancerMar]

You know, come to think of it Tiree does have a point.

The US Government in all likely hood would not JOIN such an organization unless it was the one calling the shots. If they joined without being the ones incharge of such an organization then all hell would probably break loose and many american politician(S) would definately loose their jobs and possabily their lives as well.

@comrad

The Soviets definately got the shaft as far as the technology exchange is concearned. That alone would definately be enough to **** the soviets off in the first place.

[Jefffar]

The Soviets definately got the shaft as far as the technology exchange is concearned. That alone would definately be enough to **** the soviets off in the first place.

I dunno about that. I'm sure the Russians or Chinese would be overjoyed if the USA handed over the USS Enterprise to make room for another improved Nimitz class.

[FreelancerMar]

@Jefffar

One must also remember the time period that the 1st ed RPG was written. The Soviet Navy was just about on par with just about everything that the US had been fielding at the time and in some cases Superior to their US counterparts.

According to the Show, The Soviets Invested just as much resources into the restoration of the SDF-01 as anyone else but when it came time to share the technologies the soviets got squat compared to just about everyone else. I would Imagine that just one Lousy Aircraft carrier just would not cut it. The Soviets wanted an equal return on their Investment and did not get it. This would permenantly sour relations between the Soviets(EBSIS) and the UEG.

Also the Carrier in question was not just handed over. It was Sold to them at a premium price but was still very much a sub-standard piece of equipment. If the Soviets had gotten a True Equal return on their Investment then I would Imagine that many things would have turned out differently and the Soviets would be fielding units of much better quality than they were.

[Colonel Wolfe]

According to the Show, The Soviets Invested just as much resources into the restoration of the SDF-01 as anyone else...

Which episode do they talk about the USSR/Soviets in? I've been dreading watching the macross era again for notes... but this would help me some.

[FreelancerMar]

@all

Episode 1 and I quote(For the most part). "For 10 years The Total Resources of the "Entire" Planet went into rebuilding/restoring the SDF-01"

From this I would Imagine that Since the USA and USSR(At the time period) Had the Largest Budgets available that they contributed the most towards the project and therefore Should have recieved at the very least Technoknowledgeable info to upgrade ALL of their TECH accross the Board!!! But RPG wise as we know the Soviets get royally Shafted in the deal which the soviets would see as a slap in the face.

[Comrade Corsarius]

Gloval is definitely Russian. He curses and says 'Bozhe Moi' occasionally. (apart from 'thundering asteroids!)

[dataweaver]

My take on it: there's a UEG/AUL divide, and it does not correspond with modern (or even 80's) geopolitics in anything but the most superficial of ways. The divide isn't East vs. West; it's Nationalists vs. Globalists, without respect to geography per se. Yes, there is considerable US involvement in the UEG; but there's also considerable Russian (and Chinese, and German, and Japanese, etc.) involvement. But in no case is the support complete: there's at least as much of an AUL movement in the US as there is in Russia, et al.

In fact, I'd compare the AUL to the resistance fighters of the New Generation - the only differences being that the occupiers that they oppose are human, and that (during the early Macross era) the Earth's industrial base hasn't been shattered. In fact, the New Generation sourcebook could probably be used to model the AUL by applying its tools (e.g., resistance fighter OCCs and Frankenmecha) to the Macross and/or Masters eras.

[Jefffar]

Historically I kept the major differences away until the First Gulf War. I have that war end by the UN Forces triumphantly marching into Baghdad.

The UN, feeling rightly pleased with itself, starts to take on more peace making missions for itself, raises an army, etc. The conflicts of the 1990s and 2000s play out plus a struggle of various groups who wish to block the UN from being anything more than a public debate forum against the newer, stronger UN and it's supporters.

[Seto Kaiba]

Nowhere is EBSIS mentioned.
Therefore they don't exist.

Again, that'd be true if we were talking about the show. We're not.
The RPG is a more fluid and flexible narrative environment because its exists solely as a tool for fans to explore their own interactive Robotech stories. It's not canon, and it really isn't under any obligation to follow canon.

You can't hide behind "canon this and canon that" when it's convenient. Either stick to "canon" (SC without EBSIS) or don't (original RPG, with EBSIS).

Who's hiding behind anything? All I'm saying is that the RPG is, by definition, a tool to help fans create and explore their own Robotech stories. There is no rule that says you're obligated to create a story that rigidly adheres to canon. If there were, there wouldn't be much reason to play the RPG. Nobody has a right to tell anyone that they can or can't do something within the story of their session of the Robotech RPG. If you want to run Masters-era stories strict to canon, that's cool. If you want to mix it up a little and have EBSIS or something similar present in your story, that's equally valid.

Then every OTHER non-canon group exists. [...]
Except that's ALSO impossible, because some of the groups specifically conflict with storyline in the retcon/new canon/------ that is SC.

Again, there's no rule saying that the story of your game is obligated to follow the precise story and setting of canon Robotech. The RPG books deliberately leave openings like this precisely so fans can create their own versions of the Robotech setting to put a new and different spin on things.

Gloval is definitely Russian. He curses and says 'Bozhe Moi' occasionally. (apart from 'thundering asteroids!)

To say nothing of the fact that his first (chronological) appearance in the rebooted timeline is as the captain of a Russian nuclear submarine...