Should Pantheons be revised?

[Ankhr]

I love Pantheons of the Megaverse, BUT it is one of the older books now. IF they could, should PB revise it to include new skills, types of magic, game rules, etc.? would they be better off with a revised edition, or just put the needed revisions in the Rifter? I know that Rifts: Dragons and Gods has been talked about for a while, and may not be on the top of the list to be produced. I was just wondering how the idea of it sounded to other fans. I'd love to have it revised myself, with all the Earth's pantheons that PB has published (including Celtic,Russian,etc) to be included. It's a long shot, i know. What do you guys think? Would there be enough intrest in it for PB to take an interest?

[Pepsi Jedi]

While I wouldn't mind it. I don't feel an overwhelming need for it. They've got bunches of books sitting on the shelf awaiting rewrites and others promised years ago that are yet to be produced.

I'd rather see new materiel put out, than revision of old.

But that's me.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I don't see a need for a completely revised edition.

All they really need to do is the following:

Include the Prototypical Deific Powers from Dragons and Gods, and fix where some gods "Special" powers are actually more expensive and less effective than the default powers.

Update the Stats/skills for RUE

Include some updated "relation" blocks for new powers.

Include More of the gods printed in books, such as the Lord of the Bats in the Vampire Kingdoms book.

Probablly do it in a PDF style Errata update.

[cornholioprime]

Do another fully official Pantheons of the Megaverse 2, and include not only fleshed-out, fully "officialized" versions of the various Gods that have been in various Rifters over the years (such as the Russian God Perun -that Rifter™ article on him is official, BTW), reveal "missing" gods from the other, established Pantheons (such as the powerful goddess Ameratsu and the god Raiden from Rifts Japan for example, or Coyote from Spirit West), and solve the various "mysteries" in the Books such as the god or gods secretly empowering people like Well-Fed the Fool (Rifts: Splynn Dimensional Market) and the Free World Alliance (Rifts: Phase World Sourcebook).

Also, like somebody else said in another Post here, add the Deific Powers listings from Dragons and Gods and put them into this Book so that Rifts fans who won't normally touch anything that has PFRPG on it will still have knowledge of those awesome Deific Powers that makes Gods a whole hell of a lot more than just Player Characters with more MDC and PPE.


Finally, by making a PA 109 Update, not only can Kevin give us the latest info on the Pantheons in 'Pantheons 1,' he could also plug that first book for those who don't have either!!

[Seneca]

Do another fully official Pantheons of the Megaverse 2, and include not only fleshed-out, fully "officialized" versions of the various Gods that have been in various Rifters over the years (such as the Russian God Perun -that Rifter™ article on him is official, BTW), reveal "missing" gods from the other, established Pantheons (such as the powerful goddess Ameratsu and the god Raiden from Rifts Japan for example, or Coyote from Spirit West), and solve the various "mysteries" in the Books such as the god or gods secretly empowering people like Well-Fed the Fool (Rifts: Splynn Dimensional Market) and the Free World Alliance (Rifts: Phase World Sourcebook).

Also, like somebody else said in another Post here, add the Deific Powers listings from Dragons and Gods and put them into this Book so that Rifts fans who won't normally touch anything that has PFRPG on it will still have knowledge of those awesome Deific Powers that makes Gods a whole hell of a lot more than just Player Characters with more MDC and PPE.


Finally, by making a PA 109 Update, not only can Kevin give us the latest info on the Pantheons in 'Pantheons 1,' he could also plug that first book for those who don't have either!!

I agree 100%.

I would love to finally have the Japanese and Chinese celestial courts in an update as well.

[drewkitty ~..~]

pre RUE I would of said yes.
But now, post RUE, No.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I disagree on saying some god is responsible for the success of the Free World Council. Why? There's no mystery to solve there. It's a Rebal uprising in a bizzarely Roman-like empire that they are currently too pressed in other wars to quash right now.

[Seneca]

The Russian Pantheon was posted in an early Rifter.

Which is one of the problems with Official stuff being put in the Rifters instead of new source books being made....

[Vrykolas2k]

Luckily, Palladium isnt WotC, so we won't be likely to have to deal with a revamp of it any time soon.
May eventually see a new book some day with dragons and deities in it, but who knows when.

[Ankhr]

I'm glad that we all seem to agree that there should be SOMETHING for Pantheons released. We seem to agree with the new rules of RUE as a main reason. Bringing in the gods from thr rifter and other Rifts books and the Dragons & Gods defic powers seem to have alot of interest too. I do like the idea of adding info that could be used to update things to 109 PA. thanks for the input. I know PB has alot of books that they have on their list to publish, with some there for a looong time. Anyway I was just curious as to how much interst there was and how ,much. I guess this is a " it'd be nice if " thing, but i aint holding my breath.

[RoadWarriorFWaNK]

Pantheons is ony of my least favorite books, and I hope it never gets reprinted or updated. I think it has done more to damage Rifts than it could ever hope to help it.
Seriously, why does a game set in a neo-post-apocalyptic Earth that's more about people trying to survive against strange magic and fascist dictators need a book about statting out ancient and forgotten gods?
Munchkin spank material. that's what it is.

[Library Ogre]

Pantheons is ony of my least favorite books, and I hope it never gets reprinted or updated. I think it has done more to damage Rifts than it could ever hope to help it.
Seriously, why does a game set in a neo-post-apocalyptic Earth that's more about people trying to survive against strange magic and fascist dictators need a book about statting out ancient and forgotten gods?
Munchkin spank material. that's what it is.

I, on the other hand, hate it because its a horrible and biased representation of the material it claims to convert.

[MikelAmroni]

Pantheons is ony of my least favorite books, and I hope it never gets reprinted or updated. I think it has done more to damage Rifts than it could ever hope to help it.
Seriously, why does a game set in a neo-post-apocalyptic Earth that's more about people trying to survive against strange magic and fascist dictators need a book about statting out ancient and forgotten gods?
Munchkin spank material. that's what it is.

I, on the other hand, hate it because its a horrible and biased representation of the material it claims to convert.

And I, on the other hand, felt that it opened up quite bit in the way of non god level games, as well as allowing for one of the most fun campaigns I've ever run. The campaign that allowed me to say "Sure, whatever, but make sure you can keep up with godlings, both in terms of money and power." It was a fun alternate campaign that is a definate switch of pace from the grittier games, and truly spoke to the megaverse of possibilities idea of Rifts. It allows for both games, without making either seem odd within the context of the rules or setting.

But then again, I also liberally changed the stories of some deities (specifically the greco-roman ones, we were watching Xena a lot at the time, so we ported over those representations of the greek gods, because it was more fun - not true to the myths, but we didn't really care, and us having fun was more important than anything so banal as making sure our representations of greek gods were right. )

[Talavar]

Pantheons is ony of my least favorite books, and I hope it never gets reprinted or updated. I think it has done more to damage Rifts than it could ever hope to help it.
Seriously, why does a game set in a neo-post-apocalyptic Earth that's more about people trying to survive against strange magic and fascist dictators need a book about statting out ancient and forgotten gods?
Munchkin spank material. that's what it is.

I, on the other hand, hate it because its a horrible and biased representation of the material it claims to convert.

Horrible, maybe - mythology gets butchered pretty liberally in it. But what bias does it have? I could see, if it had statted out Judeo-Christian religious figures and they were super-uber beyond all others, a bias - or vice versa.

I'm just curious here, it's been a long time since I've really looked at that book.

[MikelAmroni]

I, on the other hand, hate it because its a horrible and biased representation of the material it claims to convert.

Horrible, maybe - mythology gets butchered pretty liberally in it. But what bias does it have? I could see, if it had statted out Judeo-Christian religious figures and they were super-uber beyond all others, a bias - or vice versa.

I'm just curious here, it's been a long time since I've really looked at that book.

If I had to guess I would say it was they way pretty much half the pantheons had lost to the splugorth, despite their power. Rifts' golden boys of evil, the Splugorth and Vampire Intelligences, run rough shod over pretty much everyone. This speaks well of the level of threat they represent and is great for story telling, but I could see the repitiveness of it grating on the nerves. If it's not this, I don't have a clue. Mark?

[RoadWarriorFWaNK]

And I, on the other hand, felt that it opened up quite bit in the way of non god level games, as well as allowing for one of the most fun campaigns I've ever run. The campaign that allowed me to say "Sure, whatever, but make sure you can keep up with godlings, both in terms of money and power." It was a fun alternate campaign that is a definate switch of pace from the grittier games, and truly spoke to the megaverse of possibilities idea of Rifts. It allows for both games, without making either seem odd within the context of the rules or setting.

that's great for you, but speaking for the game line, and ultimately the company itself, I've known more people who have turned away from Rifts because of material like Pantheons than who have enjoyed it.
When I ask someone who does't like Rifts about their last (and usually only) time playing, they invariably have a story along the lines of "it was just too over-powered. everybody was playing Ancient Dragon Cyborg Glitterboys and we were hunting down the Greek Gods one by one to steal their rune weapons to use against the Norse Gods."
Like I said, this is not a one-time occurance. It happens alot. ALot of gamers see Rifts as this cosmic world-destroying deathmatch, and I blame books like Pantheons for that bad image.

[Talavar]

I just thought it was a fairly poor quality book over all. The only decent part of it in my opinion was the godling section. And even that is of limited use, the deities are mauled pretty badly in it, I'm not a fan of the artwork used, I'm certain the artist did a good job I just don't like the style. And really it didn't feature anything of use such as what the various gods are actually up to, nothing showing the long term plot arcs that are common in some of the other Palladium books.

And for those reasons, I think the pantheons book should be completely revisited. Giving more details into how the various dieties interact with one another, how they deal with other major players in the multi-verse, and any plots they may or maynot be up to. Such as what Isis is trying to do with the Knights of the white rose, etc. As well as serious thought into thier personalities and re-structuring many of the alignments listed to fall more in line with traditional mythological representation.

There are quite a few plot arcs suggested for the various pantheons/individual deities in Pantheons, though a lot are largely GM's discretion as to whether it's going to exist in their version of Rifts Earth.

[Misfit KotLD]

And I, on the other hand, felt that it opened up quite bit in the way of non god level games, as well as allowing for one of the most fun campaigns I've ever run. The campaign that allowed me to say "Sure, whatever, but make sure you can keep up with godlings, both in terms of money and power." It was a fun alternate campaign that is a definate switch of pace from the grittier games, and truly spoke to the megaverse of possibilities idea of Rifts. It allows for both games, without making either seem odd within the context of the rules or setting.

that's great for you, but speaking for the game line, and ultimately the company itself, I've known more people who have turned away from Rifts because of material like Pantheons than who have enjoyed it.
When I ask someone who does't like Rifts about their last (and usually only) time playing, they invariably have a story along the lines of "it was just too over-powered. everybody was playing Ancient Dragon Cyborg Glitterboys and we were hunting down the Greek Gods one by one to steal their rune weapons to use against the Norse Gods."
Like I said, this is not a one-time occurance. It happens alot. ALot of gamers see Rifts as this cosmic world-destroying deathmatch, and I blame books like Pantheons for that bad image.

Yes, because lord knows no other games have rules that can be so grossly abused.

[MikelAmroni]

And I, on the other hand, felt that it opened up quite bit in the way of non god level games, as well as allowing for one of the most fun campaigns I've ever run. The campaign that allowed me to say "Sure, whatever, but make sure you can keep up with godlings, both in terms of money and power." It was a fun alternate campaign that is a definate switch of pace from the grittier games, and truly spoke to the megaverse of possibilities idea of Rifts. It allows for both games, without making either seem odd within the context of the rules or setting.

that's great for you, but speaking for the game line, and ultimately the company itself, I've known more people who have turned away from Rifts because of material like Pantheons than who have enjoyed it.
When I ask someone who does't like Rifts about their last (and usually only) time playing, they invariably have a story along the lines of "it was just too over-powered. everybody was playing Ancient Dragon Cyborg Glitterboys and we were hunting down the Greek Gods one by one to steal their rune weapons to use against the Norse Gods."
Like I said, this is not a one-time occurance. It happens alot. ALot of gamers see Rifts as this cosmic world-destroying deathmatch, and I blame books like Pantheons for that bad image.

I never said that style of game was for everyone. Obviously the GM wanted to run that game and wasn't paying enough atention to what his players wanted. I've heard the complaint that its too gritty and that nazis trying to kill all the non-humans was cliche and depressing, as was the drug use of the juicer and the insanity of the crazy. Rifts attracts a certain kind of player, and Palladium has never been shy about that. If taken out of context, and without GM intervention, then the ability to get badly munchkin is easy. The same was true in 3.5, the same is true in 4E, the same was SO true in Shadowrun 3rd and now in 4th. I won't even TOUCH GURPS or Hero Games (where min maxing isn't just a munchkin thing to do, its a means of survival). In all of these cases you can run horribly broken munchkin characters, and there will be GMs who will want to run wild with it. That player might not have been around for a grittier CS Game the same GM ran (just as an example), and is making a judgement based on one experience. The same thing is going on in my group, and I have convinced them all that the previous GM who ran it was seriously messing up the setting. Of course he never claimed he was being true to the setting either, so he can't exactly be blamed for it. he was honest and up front with the group. That same group has held a bias against Rifts ever since because of it.

Going on your arguement, they shouldn't even suggest that you can play demons, creatures of magic, and definately not Dragons. Despite the fact that their power level is not even close to how you control them. And while we're at it, better not have Glitter Boys and no full conversion Borgs, and might want to drop juicers, and well that SAMAS is really cramping our style, so lets not use it either......[breathes, stops, smiles] Sorry I get going on this because folks insist because it doesn't fit one view it can't possibly be included. And I don't mena to belittle your view, and appologize if I have. I like the slightly more powerful stuff as much as I do the less powerful stuff. I would rather see a Pantheons 2 with a list of changes for the existing gods, and the inclusion of the Japanese and Russian Gods, among others. I wouldn't even complain if there was a reprint and restat of the Incan, Omaguan, and Amerindian deities. Of course I'd also like to see some actual GM advice on how to RUN a high level game in the book as well. I don't remember that being in the GM Guide, and given the venue, it could do with a restatement.

[RoadWarriorFWaNK]

uote="RoadWarriorFWaNK"]

And I, on the other hand, felt that it opened up quite bit in the way of non god level games, as well as allowing for one of the most fun campaigns I've ever run. The campaign that allowed me to say "Sure, whatever, but make sure you can keep up with godlings, both in terms of money and power." It was a fun alternate campaign that is a definate switch of pace from the grittier games, and truly spoke to the megaverse of possibilities idea of Rifts. It allows for both games, without making either seem odd within the context of the rules or setting.

that's great for you, but speaking for the game line, and ultimately the company itself, I've known more people who have turned away from Rifts because of material like Pantheons than who have enjoyed it.
When I ask someone who does't like Rifts about their last (and usually only) time plaYes, because lord knows no other games have rules that can be so grossly abused.

Of course other game rules can be abused. Hell, you can abuse the rules to Monopoly. I'm talking about abusing the setting. It's the same thing as playing Monopoly and getting the new expansion pack that includes atomic bombs. It doesn't fit.
I'm saying that Pantheons betrays the setting and basic literary themes of Rifts. When Pantheons was released, Rifts was still a relatively new game, and for the most part, it stuck to its roots as presented in the old Rifts Main Book. Pantheons came along, with its stats for Gods, but no original setting or story material that related to the characters and groups that had been previously presented to us. It had nothing to do with Juicers, or Glitter Boys, or the Coalition States, or Ley Line Walkers. The only things related to it at all were the Splugorth and Vampire Intelligences.
Monopoly is a game about buying and selling real estate. It doesn't need atomic bombs.
Rifts is a game about humans trying to survive in a strange, chaotic world. It doens't need stats for Zeus.

If Pantheons had been presented as a "rediscovery of ancient religions" type of book that outlined places in the world where people worshipped forgotten gods, that would fit the setting better. Because that would actually be about...wait for it....Rifts Earth.

Or, if Pantheons had been presented as an entirely new game that had some loose connections to Rifts, that would have been better as well. And with books like the Dimensional Builder and Dragons and Gods and the Minion war books, that kind of campaign is now plausible.
But in 1994, gamers were picking up Pantheons at their game store and saying "whoa, my CS Grunt (or Vagabond, or Cyber-Knight, or whatever) is going to have to deal with this kind of stuff? Forget this game. I wonder what TSR is putting out these days?"

[RoadWarriorFWaNK]

Going on your arguement, they shouldn't even suggest that you can play demons, creatures of magic, and definately not Dragons. Despite the fact that their power level is not even close to how you control them. And while we're at it, better not have Glitter Boys and no full conversion Borgs, and might want to drop juicers, and well that SAMAS is really cramping our style, so lets not use it either......[breathes, stops, smiles] Sorry I get going on this because folks insist because it doesn't fit one view it can't possibly be included. And I don't mena to belittle your view, and appologize if I have. I like the slightly more powerful stuff as much as I do the less powerful stuff.

You misunderstand. I'm not talking about power level (well, I sort of am, but not in the way you think). I don't think Glitter Boys, Dragons, Borgs, or SAMAS etc need to be dropped from the game. On the contrary, those things are intrinsic (sp?) parts of the setting. They help define they stylistic themes of Rifts.
In talking with people who dont like Rifts, not once has any of them said to me "Oh, i just dont care for the setting." or "I dont like the Mega-Damage system as a whole. I also would not play Robotech."
Actually, many of them love the setting, and love to just read the books, if not play the game.
Introducing a book like Pantheons and calling it a part of the "Rifts universe" (or megaverse, or whatever) ruins the literary integrity of the game.

tl;dr Pantheons has nothing to do with Rifts and I dont think it should be revised.

[Marrowlight]

But in 1994, gamers were picking up Pantheons at their game store and saying "whoa, my CS Grunt (or Vagabond, or Cyber-Knight, or whatever) is going to have to deal with this kind of stuff? Forget this game. I wonder what TSR is putting out these days?"

Lord knows how those people managed to hang with Africa or Mechanoids then, to get driven away by Pantheons.

[Jesterzzn]

But in 1994, gamers were picking up Pantheons at their game store and saying "whoa, my CS Grunt (or Vagabond, or Cyber-Knight, or whatever) is going to have to deal with this kind of stuff? Forget this game. I wonder what TSR is putting out these days?"

Lord knows how those people managed to hang with Africa or Mechanoids then, to get driven away by Pantheons.

Besides which, Am I the only one who has had a GM in AD&D that decided one day to throw his low level players up against an Acient Chromatic Dragon, just for kicks and giggles?

Every game has powerful junk GMs can use to be *****...Pantheons isn't that bad in my opinion.

[Marrowlight]

But in 1994, gamers were picking up Pantheons at their game store and saying "whoa, my CS Grunt (or Vagabond, or Cyber-Knight, or whatever) is going to have to deal with this kind of stuff? Forget this game. I wonder what TSR is putting out these days?"

Lord knows how those people managed to hang with Africa or Mechanoids then, to get driven away by Pantheons.

Besides which, Am I the only one who has had a GM in AD&D that decided one day to throw his low level players up against an Acient Chromatic Dragon, just for kicks and giggles?

Every game has powerful junk GMs can use to be *****...Pantheons isn't that bad in my opinion.

I was playing in games using the Arduin Grimoires before Pantheons was a glimmer in Palladium's eyes...so yeah, it never gave me a moment's pause.

[Talavar]

I suppose Pantheons didn't really fit the tone of Rifts at the time, but since then if fits just fine as a sort of dimension book.

[MikelAmroni]

That is a valid point. I have ALWAYS looked at Pantheons as a dimension book, and I always thought it presented itself as a dimension book. I realize its not, but that is how I have always seen it. When I use Rifts Native godlings, its always for flavor, and the campaign is almost always transdimensional in nature. In fact the only gods a CS grunt could POSSIBLY deal with (unless they attack Omagua for some insane reason, and pass over all the other threats in between), is the Native American gods, and they are described as highly absentee and determined to let their people figure it out themselves, and worrying about greater threats than territorial ones - working through champions, etc. ActuallY I always read into the way they described things in Pantheons as "the gods have these grand plans, but no one really wants to tackle the hot potato that is Rifts earth, because of the highly volatile environment".

[Marrowlight]

That is a valid point. I have ALWAYS looked at Pantheons as a dimension book, and I always thought it presented itself as a dimension book. I realize its not, but that is how I have always seen it. When I use Rifts Native godlings, its always for flavor, and the campaign is almost always transdimensional in nature. In fact the only gods a CS grunt could POSSIBLY deal with (unless they attack Omagua for some insane reason, and pass over all the other threats in between), is the Native American gods, and they are described as highly absentee and determined to let their people figure it out themselves, and worrying about greater threats than territorial ones - working through champions, etc. ActuallY I always read into the way they described things in Pantheons as "the gods have these grand plans, but no one really wants to tackle the hot potato that is Rifts earth, because of the highly volatile environment".

While it's been half a lifetime and my memory is fuzzy as a result, I seem to recall Pantheons and Phase World being published very close to one another and of course being written by the same person. In fact, I've always felt Pantheons worked better with Phase World than with anything else. Even if the publication dates are distant, considering a Cosmo Knight (or two? think it was two) showed up in Lazlo at the very beginning of the South America playtest Carella ran back on prodigy way back in the day, it's pretty obvious he had parts of this stuff all in his head at the same time.

[MikelAmroni]

Yeah, whenever I think high powered game in Phase world, godling always makes the short list with Cosmo Knights, wolfen quatoria, promethians and undead slayers.

[Vrykolas2k]

And I, on the other hand, felt that it opened up quite bit in the way of non god level games, as well as allowing for one of the most fun campaigns I've ever run. The campaign that allowed me to say "Sure, whatever, but make sure you can keep up with godlings, both in terms of money and power." It was a fun alternate campaign that is a definate switch of pace from the grittier games, and truly spoke to the megaverse of possibilities idea of Rifts. It allows for both games, without making either seem odd within the context of the rules or setting.

that's great for you, but speaking for the game line, and ultimately the company itself, I've known more people who have turned away from Rifts because of material like Pantheons than who have enjoyed it.
When I ask someone who does't like Rifts about their last (and usually only) time playing, they invariably have a story along the lines of "it was just too over-powered. everybody was playing Ancient Dragon Cyborg Glitterboys and we were hunting down the Greek Gods one by one to steal their rune weapons to use against the Norse Gods."
Like I said, this is not a one-time occurance. It happens alot. ALot of gamers see Rifts as this cosmic world-destroying deathmatch, and I blame books like Pantheons for that bad image.

I've never heard a complaint like that.
Usually what I hear is something to the effect of their puny little minds being unable to grasp the system, which is why they don't like any Palladium game.
The games I hear people complain the most about as far as munchkinism was 3.5 after it'd been out for a year.
At least if you hear someone complain about cybernetic dragons in Rifts, you know they're either full of crap or just intentionally playing illegal characters.
3.5, however, had Pogo, or whatever that multi-classed kobold 7th level god-slayer was called. And it was a "legal" character, as per the RAW.

[Library Ogre]

I've never heard a complaint like that.
Usually what I hear is something to the effect of their puny little minds being unable to grasp the system, which is why they don't like any Palladium game.
The games I hear people complain the most about as far as munchkinism was 3.5 after it'd been out for a year.
At least if you hear someone complain about cybernetic dragons in Rifts, you know they're either full of crap or just intentionally playing illegal characters.
3.5, however, had Pogo, or whatever that multi-classed kobold 7th level god-slayer was called. And it was a "legal" character, as per the RAW.

While I agree that most of the people who don't like Rifts have had issues with the system, I'll say that Pun-Pun was only legal with several sourcebooks and some VERY liberal interpretations of the rules... RAW-legal, but only in the DM being willing to say "Yeah, that'll work" sort of way.

[The Galactus Kid]

My group NEVER used pantheons until Hades came out. Only now, in our minion war campaign is it even remotely feasible to use.

[Misfit KotLD]

Of course other game rules can be abused. Hell, you can abuse the rules to Monopoly. I'm talking about abusing the setting. It's the same thing as playing Monopoly and getting the new expansion pack that includes atomic bombs. It doesn't fit.
I'm saying that Pantheons betrays the setting and basic literary themes of Rifts. When Pantheons was released, Rifts was still a relatively new game, and for the most part, it stuck to its roots as presented in the old Rifts Main Book. Pantheons came along, with its stats for Gods, but no original setting or story material that related to the characters and groups that had been previously presented to us. It had nothing to do with Juicers, or Glitter Boys, or the Coalition States, or Ley Line Walkers. The only things related to it at all were the Splugorth and Vampire Intelligences.
Monopoly is a game about buying and selling real estate. It doesn't need atomic bombs.
Rifts is a game about humans trying to survive in a strange, chaotic world. It doens't need stats for Zeus.

If Rifts is a game about humans trying to survive in a strange, chaotic world, why were we given dragons to play right from the start.

If Pantheons had been presented as a "rediscovery of ancient religions" type of book that outlined places in the world where people worshipped forgotten gods, that would fit the setting better. Because that would actually be about...wait for it....Rifts Earth.

Or, if Pantheons had been presented as an entirely new game that had some loose connections to Rifts, that would have been better as well. And with books like the Dimensional Builder and Dragons and Gods and the Minion war books, that kind of campaign is now plausible.
But in 1994, gamers were picking up Pantheons at their game store and saying "whoa, my CS Grunt (or Vagabond, or Cyber-Knight, or whatever) is going to have to deal with this kind of stuff? Forget this game. I wonder what TSR is putting out these days?"

You were going good with the rediscovery thing, then you went back to the "munchkin bad, grr" argument. So, there weren't Undead Slayers, Tattooed Men, or Temporal Wizards available by Pantheons? The story argument I'll buy, the overpowered argument I won't. Not when dragons were presented not pages from the Vagabond. Sorry, that argument just doesn't hold up.

[Vrykolas2k]

So, with the "power game bit"... when Legends and Lore was published for AD&D, it... made people go look for another game?
I think not.
Unless they were that weird and insecure, I suppose.
All statting out gods does is... stat out gods.
It doesn't mean that your CS Grunt is going to go hand-to-hand with Thor all of a sudden, unless you need to replace your GM...

[runebeo]

I'd like to see it revised and updated, but I think the book should be more centered on the minions of the god's. My Group has included some god's in our campaigns for years. We always had them behave like lazy, selfish, backstabbing bureaucrats. Only out for themselves and most of the time they are so worried about stepping on each others toes to get anything done. The use their influence with their worshipers & minions to get things done without taking a direct hand in the actual events. I like the the pretender gods in the book, unlike the true gods they could be battle and even defeated or killed. They were very useful, but some didn't seemed that well thought out and really could be improved. The thing I'd most like to see updated is Odin's Berserkers & Valkyries both seemed kind of plain and use some extra abilities. If any book need revising most it's Rifts Mercenaries and Wormwood, both were great book, yet so outdated and a little underpowered compared to Coalition War Campaign and later books. All the books before Rifts undersea could use a little touching up to match the quality of the rest of the series.

[MikelAmroni]

Well Wormwood is getting some love in the Rifters, which is probably about as close to an update as you're going to get for a while. I agree that there should be more done for minions, but the simple fact is a lot of the "classic" minions were already Palladium monsters with established histories. I don't really see much in Mercenaries that needs revising, that Merc Ops and Merc Adventures didn't cover already. Unlike Sourcebook 1, it doesn't have to pick up slack from the main book, nor does it have to give up some stuff that UE now covers that original RMB didn't. The OCCs could use an update, but I'd just as soon see that as a rifter article than a full out revised book. I'd like to see some other vehicles, but that's a logn held criticism I've had, there aren't enough civilian and minor MDC vehicles that actually stand out, aside from the apcs, hover cycles and juicer vehicles.

[Misfit KotLD]

So, with the "power game bit"... when Legends and Lore was published for AD&D, it... made people go look for another game?
I think not.
Unless they were that weird and insecure, I suppose.
All statting out gods does is... stat out gods.
It doesn't mean that your CS Grunt is going to go hand-to-hand with Thor all of a sudden, unless you need to replace your GM...

I don't recall L&L giving players the option of playing partially divine beings the way Pantheons does.

[MikelAmroni]

It doesn't mean that your CS Grunt is going to go hand-to-hand with Thor all of a sudden, unless you need to replace your GM...

Well not if your grunt fights with all the heart of a vahallan warrior, and gets killed only to be resurrected as one of Odin's warriors. But that's more background than actual in game happenings. But then we recently had someone on the boards GM someone getting offered the mantle of cosmo knight in game, so anything's possible

[Marrowlight]

And unlike many people, I have no problem with the Godling RCC. In a lot of nice ways, it serves a purpose of very aptly demonstrating where Rifts may go.

I've never really cared what anyone plays, in my games. My basic theory is that I can always kill you if you get out of hand; I just strive to achieve harmony within the group. The world flexes as necessary around them.

[Marrowlight]

And unlike many people, I have no problem with the Godling RCC. In a lot of nice ways, it serves a purpose of very aptly demonstrating where Rifts may go.

I've never really cared what anyone plays, in my games. My basic theory is that I can always kill you if you get out of hand; I just strive to achieve harmony within the group. The world flexes as necessary around them.

If a player or character gets out of hand, I tend to talk to the player about it. Tends to work better, especially if it's due to an obscure rules synergy or just unexpected consequences of particular powers. That being said, if I have a Godling in the party, I have a pretty good idea of what to expect!

Benefit of having been with the same gaming group for so long -- players getting out of hand is just them being bastards, not because of obscure rules, :lol

[Misfit KotLD]

So, with the "power game bit"... when Legends and Lore was published for AD&D, it... made people go look for another game?
I think not.
Unless they were that weird and insecure, I suppose.
All statting out gods does is... stat out gods.
It doesn't mean that your CS Grunt is going to go hand-to-hand with Thor all of a sudden, unless you need to replace your GM...

I don't recall L&L giving players the option of playing partially divine beings the way Pantheons does.

Read it again, near the front.
Yes, players can play demi-gods and even lesser gods.

In Legends and Lore? I see a bit with no stats on the GM NPCing deific beings. But nothing on PCs.

[Vrykolas2k]

You're right, it does say that you become an NPC when you Ascend.
However, it's still open in some campaigns.
*Shrug.
Just like playing a demi-deity or godling in Rifts. Depends on the campaign.
But it still didn't scare anyone off with a brain when Deities and Demigods came out waaaaay back in 1980. I don't recall anyone saying, "My DM is going to throw my 1st level Fighter against Cthulhu. Let's see what some other game company has.".

[Misfit KotLD]

You're right, it does say that you become an NPC when you Ascend.
However, it's still open in some campaigns.
*Shrug.
Just like playing a demi-deity or godling in Rifts. Depends on the campaign.
But it still didn't scare anyone off with a brain when Deities and Demigods came out waaaaay back in 1980. I don't recall anyone saying, "My DM is going to throw my 1st level Fighter against Cthulhu. Let's see what some other game company has.".

The difference is L&L didn't have rules for deific PCs, Rifts does. But the deific PCs are no worse than a hatchling dragon. So crying munchkin as if Pantheons was the first Rifts book to include more than human options is silly.

[Shorty Lickens]

The material is so different from all of the other books I dont really see a need for a revision. Especially when some other books really do need it and PB has so much on their plate already.

[Shadyslug]

A true god doesn't stick around to fight by himself, unless they're facing another god.

Gods use minions and pawns to fight. So that God who was beat down and killed by the Coalition was just bad role playing.

That God should've had his own mass of pawns to toss at the Coalition forces and his magics would've been the decisive advantage.

But hey...if people think that a God or Ancient Dragon with thousands of years of experience is just going to sit there and take a beating, then they probably should call it "roll" playing...

[Vrykolas2k]

There's also this: If a god ends up in the middle of a CS company, all of those attacks that miss have to go somewhere, as do any ranged attacks the god parries with his rune weapon...
All of those people shooting at one being are going to do a lot of collateral damage, especially as smoke-filled as the area would be in one or two rounds. Sensors would be picking up so many moving targets that they would no longer know where the target was. A god could route a company and kill maybe one or two people, the rest would be friendly fire and morale.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I think they really need to revamp alot of it. I would like alot more about the gods, their agenda's, etc to be in there.
I also really think they need to buff the gods up ALOT. I mean really, it should be IMPOSSIBLE for a player group to kill a god... or an ancient dragon really. If you think about it, the gods and ancient dragons are supposed to be the very IDEA of power and strength. The fact that a couple dragon juicers can actually kill an ancient is just STUPID lol.

I have seen it in one of my buddy's games (not with my primary group though!) where a god has been defeated by a coalition company. I cant remember the reason for the god actually engaging the coalition but it was a good (and comical) one. Anyway, they actually beat the god down and killed him... I was shocked! I mean really... Your serious? A god should have wiped the floor with them...

I really like the way my GM redid the gods and dragons and it seems to work out fairly well. Gods and ancient dragons have literally hundreds of millions of MDC, 10's of thousands of years of experience, and far more power. The way they are in the books, alot of them can easily be killed by a clever pc group or by really anyone with large numbers if they are forced into an open fight. I just wish they would add alot more in their storys, motives, agenda's, etc.

Why? Gods are intended to be powerful beings to be sure but not invincible. That's a silly idea, and giving them millions and millions of MDC is just a way to get around thinking when you actually use them.

Also, consider the type of god in question. I agree Thor should be able to defeat a coalition company, but if you use his powers and abilities properly he already is, he just needs to be slightly more thoughtful than smashy smashy, which dispite some sterotypes he usually is.

But what if you take some completely non-combat fertility god? One that never fought anyone and has no combat skill? Heck, a god of Peace would be a perfect exsample. They would have a ton of MDC, but in general they don't fight and shouldn't be able to effectively.

[Cybermancer]

Remember the boxed sets for D&D?

Started out with the Red 'Basic' rules.
Then the Blue 'Expert' rules.
Followed by the Green 'Companion' rules.
Then the ever Epic Black 'Master' rules.
And it all ended with the Gold 'Immortal' rules.

I don't think that Palladium exactly pioneered the concept of diefied PC's.

I blame bad GMing over anything else for many people complaints about Palladium.

[Wildfire]

the way I look att his question is that it could use an update but I am of the mind that it could be a PDF like another poster stated.

About this one book over powering everything, well I think that is BS.
The book has an interpretation of the gods the writer chose for it. how a GM uses it is up to him or her.
I use it that you can play the PC classes and races which are not much more powerful than mutants from HU (or HU2 now days) however playing the god level classes is not normal/ if they come into play it is generally through as a plot device to mnove the story along either to help or hinder the PC. Like in the old Greekl myths or Norse myths.
Thor will not face a army of CS or NGR it would be pointless but his chosen worriors or priests might.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I have a question that I am hoping to find an answer to.
In Pantheons of the Megaverse it spoke about the (possible) returning of the Greek/Roman gods to Greece/Mount Olympus. Has any later supplement dealt with that? Have they returned by 109 PA? Is the blurb mentioning their return in the book merely there for personal development?
I know I said "a question" but I believe you guys get the idea.

Anyone know?

Never mentioned anywhere else.

[Wildfire]

some one did a net book on greece a long time ago