Borgs verses phase weapons

[Nightmask]

At the end of the day, does anyone really want a one-shot kill weapon against every single borg? Logically (ha ha) you could probably argue that phase weapons should tear through borgs like tissue, but it effectively removes borgs from any game with phase weapons.

So let them have some aura or whatever.

It's a pretty much one-shot weapon against people in power armor or vehicles as well, what about them? Maybe the borg should suffer the same fears as everyone else on the remote chance phase weapons show up, have to actually spend money on systems to protect against phase weapons just like everyone else instead of getting protection the rest don't get. Seriously, 'oh I'm a big bad borg I don't have to fear anything in my MDC body! Wait, I have to fear Phase Beamers like everyone else?! No that can't be right I'm a borg I'm supposed to be special and not have to worry about stuff like that! I can't be treated like any other flesh and blood creature having to worry about this rare weapon it shouldn't be able to hurt me either!'

Kevin S clearly disagrees with you.

Also, phase weapons are not pretty much one shot kill weapons against people in power armor or vehicles unless they have terribly low hp and sdc combined. The Robot Pilot OCC (standard power armor trooper) has both Body Building and Running, so including those at first level it gives an average of 15 hp and 32.5 sdc with no other physical skills that boost sdc taken. I forget if there is a more powerful phase weapon in later books, but in Phase World the strongest damage from a phase weapon against sdc is 4d6, so to do a one shot you would need a max damage critical hit. I don't see "statistically least likely outcome" (tied only with a crit that rolls all ones for damage) being sufficiently frequent to justify the claim that it is "pretty much" a one shot kill. It would on average take 4 shots to kill them.

Still a far easier kill when your heavy power armor provides you not a whit of protection, which you're ignoring. Nor do I care if Kevin or anyone else declares 'oh no the poor borg player can't handle being vulnerable to this super-rare weapon and feeling like that poor guy in the power armor well since he's so fragile I'll just rule that magically he's protected anyway so he won't feel threatened like everyone else does or have to do anything to protect himself like everyone else has to.'

If the borg player can't handle that a rare weapon exists that could kill him easily just like the guy in power armor and isn't willing to take REASONABLE precautions against it then he shouldn't be playing one, if he's that afraid he should be playing a Hatchling Dragon or, oh, an ANTI MONSTER if wants to not have to worry about Phase Beamers.

[Axelmania]

My ******** technobabble reasoning:

Phase weapons pass freely through nonliving auras, but damage things with living auras. Borgs have tiny living auras compared to full biilogics, but living auras, nonetheless. Therefore, phase weapons do MDC damage to their cybernetic compenents.

It holds together about as well as wet cardboard, but while you're picking it apart, I'll just throw down a smoke bomb and introduce 2nd stage promethian ninja time lord wizards.

Verification the undead are alive?

[Killer Cyborg]

At the end of the day, does anyone really want a one-shot kill weapon against every single borg? Logically (ha ha) you could probably argue that phase weapons should tear through borgs like tissue, but it effectively removes borgs from any game with phase weapons.

So let them have some aura or whatever.

It's a pretty much one-shot weapon against people in power armor or vehicles as well, what about them? Maybe the borg should suffer the same fears as everyone else on the remote chance phase weapons show up, have to actually spend money on systems to protect against phase weapons just like everyone else instead of getting protection the rest don't get. Seriously, 'oh I'm a big bad borg I don't have to fear anything in my MDC body! Wait, I have to fear Phase Beamers like everyone else?! No that can't be right I'm a borg I'm supposed to be special and not have to worry about stuff like that! I can't be treated like any other flesh and blood creature having to worry about this rare weapon it shouldn't be able to hurt me either!'

Kevin S clearly disagrees with you.

Also, phase weapons are not pretty much one shot kill weapons against people in power armor or vehicles unless they have terribly low hp and sdc combined. The Robot Pilot OCC (standard power armor trooper) has both Body Building and Running, so including those at first level it gives an average of 15 hp and 32.5 sdc with no other physical skills that boost sdc taken. I forget if there is a more powerful phase weapon in later books, but in Phase World the strongest damage from a phase weapon against sdc is 4d6, so to do a one shot you would need a max damage critical hit. I don't see "statistically least likely outcome" (tied only with a crit that rolls all ones for damage) being sufficiently frequent to justify the claim that it is "pretty much" a one shot kill. It would on average take 4 shots to kill them.

Still a far easier kill when your heavy power armor provides you not a whit of protection, which you're ignoring. Nor do I care if Kevin or anyone else declares 'oh no the poor borg player can't handle being vulnerable to this super-rare weapon and feeling like that poor guy in the power armor well since he's so fragile I'll just rule that magically he's protected anyway so he won't feel threatened like everyone else does or have to do anything to protect himself like everyone else has to.'

If the borg player can't handle that a rare weapon exists that could kill him easily just like the guy in power armor and isn't willing to take REASONABLE precautions against it then he shouldn't be playing one, if he's that afraid he should be playing a Hatchling Dragon or, oh, an ANTI MONSTER if wants to not have to worry about Phase Beamers.

Or he could play a Borg, since according to the rules Borgs--like any other MDC creature--take basic mega-damage from phase beams.

[Library Ogre]

My ******** technobabble reasoning:

Phase weapons pass freely through nonliving auras, but damage things with living auras. Borgs have tiny living auras compared to full biilogics, but living auras, nonetheless. Therefore, phase weapons do MDC damage to their cybernetic compenents.

It holds together about as well as wet cardboard, but while you're picking it apart, I'll just throw down a smoke bomb and introduce 2nd stage promethian ninja time lord wizards.

Verification the undead are alive?

Undead auras are different fdom nonliving auras, and are affected.

[Nightmartree]

My ******** technobabble reasoning:

Phase weapons pass freely through nonliving auras, but damage things with living auras. Borgs have tiny living auras compared to full biilogics, but living auras, nonetheless. Therefore, phase weapons do MDC damage to their cybernetic compenents.

It holds together about as well as wet cardboard, but while you're picking it apart, I'll just throw down a smoke bomb and introduce 2nd stage promethian ninja time lord wizards.

Verification the undead are alive?

well I wouldn't call them alive...but they're not really dead you know?so they're not alive, and they're not dead. It almost makes you feel like there should be a state in between those...lets call it undead. So we know that they aren't dead and so they have some sorta aura right? but they aren't alive so they have a living aura? it's a purty complex situation, but i'm going to try really hard to stop this cause I can't remember what movie or genre actually had this style of talking (I think it was a comedy...) but anyway simply question

would you say anything you can read with a see aura gets phased?

[dreicunan]

At the end of the day, does anyone really want a one-shot kill weapon against every single borg? Logically (ha ha) you could probably argue that phase weapons should tear through borgs like tissue, but it effectively removes borgs from any game with phase weapons.

So let them have some aura or whatever.

It's a pretty much one-shot weapon against people in power armor or vehicles as well, what about them? Maybe the borg should suffer the same fears as everyone else on the remote chance phase weapons show up, have to actually spend money on systems to protect against phase weapons just like everyone else instead of getting protection the rest don't get. Seriously, 'oh I'm a big bad borg I don't have to fear anything in my MDC body! Wait, I have to fear Phase Beamers like everyone else?! No that can't be right I'm a borg I'm supposed to be special and not have to worry about stuff like that! I can't be treated like any other flesh and blood creature having to worry about this rare weapon it shouldn't be able to hurt me either!'

Kevin S clearly disagrees with you.

Also, phase weapons are not pretty much one shot kill weapons against people in power armor or vehicles unless they have terribly low hp and sdc combined. The Robot Pilot OCC (standard power armor trooper) has both Body Building and Running, so including those at first level it gives an average of 15 hp and 32.5 sdc with no other physical skills that boost sdc taken. I forget if there is a more powerful phase weapon in later books, but in Phase World the strongest damage from a phase weapon against sdc is 4d6, so to do a one shot you would need a max damage critical hit. I don't see "statistically least likely outcome" (tied only with a crit that rolls all ones for damage) being sufficiently frequent to justify the claim that it is "pretty much" a one shot kill. It would on average take 4 shots to kill them.

Still a far easier kill when your heavy power armor provides you not a whit of protection, which you're ignoring. Nor do I care if Kevin or anyone else declares 'oh no the poor borg player can't handle being vulnerable to this super-rare weapon and feeling like that poor guy in the power armor well since he's so fragile I'll just rule that magically he's protected anyway so he won't feel threatened like everyone else does or have to do anything to protect himself like everyone else has to.'

If the borg player can't handle that a rare weapon exists that could kill him easily just like the guy in power armor and isn't willing to take REASONABLE precautions against it then he shouldn't be playing one, if he's that afraid he should be playing a Hatchling Dragon or, oh, an ANTI MONSTER if wants to not have to worry about Phase Beamers.

Did a Borg player kill your pet or something? I do not understand why you think that this has anything to do with borg player feelings.

Anyway, Kevin S didn't say anything remotely like that. He did, however, make it clear that Full Conversion Borgs are MDC creatures in RUE (see page 47) and also separately confirmed that they only have MDC. The rest of us who are pointing this out aren't making a ruling to protect hypothetical borg player feelings; we are simply acknowledging the reality that RUE says what it says! You may as well argue that Cyber-Knights shouldn't have Psi-swords because if players wants that they should play Mind Melters! As of RUE, being a mega-damage being is part of what it means to be a Full Conversion Borg. It is part of the OCC just as much as having a Psi-sword is part of being a Cyber-Knight or being able to eyeball a fella is part of being a Vagabond.

[Axelmania]

Where does it say in RUE they are only MDC? That they cannot also have HP?

[dreicunan]

Where does it say in RUE they are only MDC? That they cannot also have HP?

Page 47, "is considered a mega-damage being now" when explaining why they are immune to attacks that do damage direct to hit points, i.e. they are immune to the attacks because they are mdc beings and thus have no hit points to affect. Otherwise, it would have given them hit points and said that they were immune to attacks unless you could somehow reach that part of the cyborg.

[Blue_Lion]

You tried to set up a case where people where ignoring a blanket rule,

The burden is on you to prove your idea that the writers of the FAQ were ignoring a blanket rule that had not yet been officially written.
Regardless, I'll still ignore the FAQ because--as I've said--it holds no more meaning than any house-rule or head-canon that anybody here comes up with on their own.

The FaQ you dislike was official

Source?

Nope I do not need to prove that they where ignoring blanket rule (or how FCB have always been stated),

Care to quote the passage that you think is "how FCB have always been stated?"

because it was never my claim that they where ignoring a blanket rule that is your straw man.

Actually, that was me mis-speaking, and not grokking your personal distinction between "a blanket rule" and "a general rule."
How about: you prove your claim of "The fact that their is a general rule that FCB are MDC is not what is being challenged after all?"

My claim is the wording is such that it creates a special case that only applies in limited conditions.

Support it.

The FaQ on the web page was put out by a PB employee responding on behalf of PB.

Source?

This whole post comes acrossed as a petty attack.
You ask me to provide support that FCB in rifts have always been stated as being MDC?-this is basically asking me to pull out the stats for every FCB ever and see if any are listed as SDC. How about this are there any FCB bodies listed as sdc in rifts?(After all FCB in the orginal rifts book had 280 MDC for the converted body pg 239)
The support has already been provided for it being a special case in the wording as I have already pointed out. -for the purposes of- is creating something special case.(when the wording of text is using words indicating a special case no other support is needed it is a special case.)

You want a source to prove that when a company puts out a FaQ it is a employee responding for the company?-That is beyound petty attack, as the point of a company having a FaQ is to give official replies to common questions. Lets see it is listed in the cutting room floor that is listed as- On the "cutting room floor," you will find things that went out of print, were forgotten or left out for other reasons, along with general errata and excluded material from various books.(hmm seams to indicate the stuff there is official)


How about this do you have a sorce that says when it was PB FaQ is/was not an official statement?(as the whole point putting out a FaQ is to give offical reply to common questions.)

[Blue_Lion]

You tried to set up a case where people where ignoring a blanket rule,

The burden is on you to prove your idea that the writers of the FAQ were ignoring a blanket rule that had not yet been officially written.
Regardless, I'll still ignore the FAQ because--as I've said--it holds no more meaning than any house-rule or head-canon that anybody here comes up with on their own.

The FaQ you dislike was official

Source?

Nope I do not need to prove that they where ignoring blanket rule(or how FCB have always been stated), because it was never my claim that they where ignoring a blanket rule that is your straw man. The quote you are misrepresenting is me pointing out your straw man.

My claim is the wording is such that it creates a special case that only applies in limited conditions. Something that is not affected by a blanket rule as special conditions are acceptations to the norm.



The FaQ on the web page was put out by a PB employee responding on behalf of PB. That makes it official statement from PB unless some one higher up retracts it.

(We can debate claims on this but you can not claim one side in this debate is wrong by cannon.)

Someone higher up like, say, Kevin Siembieda flat out stating that they are MDC only with no mention of exceptions? Or RUE making it clear that Full Conversion Borgs are considered MDC beings? Well, what do you know? The old FAQ, canon or not, has been rendered moot. You can't gave a special case if the reason for the special case has been removed!

Also, we totally could debate this by cannon, but that might get us in trouble with the authorities.

He stated how they are in general, he also never stated their are no acceptations.-His statement reflects the general rule that FCB are MDC in rifts, I have never seen any book stat a rifts full conversion borg with SDC. That statement does not remove any special cases or acceptions to the norm, it was just a statement about how things are normally.-Every rule can have acceptations so their is no need to say their can be acceptations but their is a need to say their are no acceptations.

[Killer Cyborg]

You tried to set up a case where people where ignoring a blanket rule,

The burden is on you to prove your idea that the writers of the FAQ were ignoring a blanket rule that had not yet been officially written.
Regardless, I'll still ignore the FAQ because--as I've said--it holds no more meaning than any house-rule or head-canon that anybody here comes up with on their own.

The FaQ you dislike was official

Source?

Nope I do not need to prove that they where ignoring blanket rule (or how FCB have always been stated),

Care to quote the passage that you think is "how FCB have always been stated?"

because it was never my claim that they where ignoring a blanket rule that is your straw man.

Actually, that was me mis-speaking, and not grokking your personal distinction between "a blanket rule" and "a general rule."
How about: you prove your claim of "The fact that their is a general rule that FCB are MDC is not what is being challenged after all?"

My claim is the wording is such that it creates a special case that only applies in limited conditions.

Support it.

The FaQ on the web page was put out by a PB employee responding on behalf of PB.

Source?

This whole post comes acrossed as a petty attack.
You ask me to provide support that FCB in rifts have always been stated as being MDC?

As being ONLY MDC, specifically lacking any HP or SDC.
RUE is the first official text that I'm aware of that specifies that FCBs dont' have any HP/SDC, so if it was ever mention pre-RUE in the books (not just by KS in an intervew) then yes, I'd like to see it.
As far as I can tell, your claim that this is "how FCB have always been stated" doesn't seem to be true.

-this is basically asking me to pull out the stats for every FCB ever and see if any are listed as SDC. How about this are there any FCB bodies listed as sdc in rifts?(After all FCB in the orginal rifts book had 280 MDC for the converted body pg 239)

Yes, but people often believed that the MDC was in addition to Hit Points and/or SDC.
There were some FCBs (James T, IIRC) that did list HP and/or SDC in addition to MDC, and this muddied the waters.
IF you go back to my first post in this thread, follow the link I provided, and spend some time reading over the thread that I linked to, you will see much discussion about this kind of thing.
Which is one reason why I provided that link--so that people who were interested could fill themselves in on the background of this topic, and save some time by seeing which facts were already thoroughly discussed in previous posts.

You want a source to prove that when a company puts out a FaQ it is a employee responding for the company?

Definitely, because I know who did this FAQ, and see zero evidence that they were employees at the time.
If you did your research, then you'd know as well.
.

-That is beyound petty attack, as the point of a company having a FaQ is to give official replies to common questions.

That is often the point of a FAQ, but not the only one.
You or I could have a Rifts Fansite, for example, and post our own Rifts FAQ. That wouldn't make it official.
Or Palladium could have a couple of fans answer a bunch of question with their own opinions, and that wouldn't be official in any way that mattered.

Lets see it is listed in the cutting room floor that is listed as- On the "cutting room floor," you will find things that went out of print, were forgotten or left out for other reasons, along with general errata and excluded material from various books.(hmm seams to indicate the stuff there is official)

Yes. That were forgotten or left out for reasons.

How about this do you have a sorce that says when it was PB FaQ is/was not an official statement?(as the whole point putting out a FaQ is to give offical reply to common questions.)

I have a source stating who did the FAQ, how they did it, and which official employees they consulted with.
I have a source (the FAQ itself) showing that the FAQ frequently conflicts with canon, and/or shows a general ignorance of the rules.
And yeah, if you are agreeing that you do not have any source for your own claims, I can provide the sources for my own.

[Prysus]

Lets see it is listed in the cutting room floor that is listed as- On the "cutting room floor," you will find things that went out of print, were forgotten or left out for other reasons, along with general errata and excluded material from various books.(hmm seams to indicate the stuff there is official)


How about this do you have a sorce that says when it was PB FaQ is/was not an official statement?(as the whole point putting out a FaQ is to give offical reply to common questions.)

I have a source stating who did the FAQ, how they did it, and which official employees they consulted with.
I have a source (the FAQ itself) showing that the FAQ frequently conflicts with canon, and/or shows a general ignorance of the rules.
And yeah, if you are agreeing that you do not have any source for your own claims, I can provide the sources for my own.

Ooooo ... challenge!

Greetings and Salutations. Okay, so I'm not sure about the source for who did the FAQ and which employees were consulted with, so I'd be interested in seeing that one. However, let's see what I can find on the matter ...

First, we have the old, old FAQ section: http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/ques ... infaq.html This states ...

The following is a list of some of the most frequently asked questions about Palladium and our products. I want to thank Brandon (Looney) Seifert and Robotechie from the Palladium Mailing List for their help in compiling these questions and their answers. Also any answers to game questions which are given here are not meant to subvert any house rules or gamemaster decisions. This page will be updated as needed. Please feel free to pass along any other questions you feel should be answered here.

I see two names, neither of which I recognize as employees (though I could be wrong), having compiled the list from the Palladium Mailing List (PML). Now the PML is a little before my time, so I don't know how many employees contributed to it, and if it's possible they gave official answers. My understanding though is that it was the equivalent for these forums (before we had the forums) in e-mail form. At no point does it list this as official, but it's possible. The actual list of questions, however, is rather small and limited. Note: I also do not see the above question listed here.

Following that is the old FanFAQ section: http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/questions/index.html This states:

This is a new version of the FanFaq. What it does is take the FanFaq and cut them down to just the questions and answers. They have then been broken down by category. This way you don't have to scan through tons of character class related rules when you want something on magic.

Please let us know if you have any questions or comments about Palladium Books. If it's a game question please post it on the Q&A Forum (linked below).

First, this is listed as a "FanFaq," which is interesting. If this was official, it should simply be listed as "FAQ." While it could mean that fans are the ones asking the questions, this would be a little silly to state. After all, if fans aren't asking the questions, it would imply employees are asking the questions (which would be bad) or people who don't know or like the system (which would also be a little odd). Listing it as such would indicate that these are fan asked and answered. Of course, this is Palladium, so it's hard to be sure. Note: The question and answer of the topic IS found in this section.

Second, the section then directs you to ask your questions on the Q&A forums. If we look at the Games F.A.Q. Archive on these forums, we will see this post: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=79143

Now, the date for this places it after the previous link (so effectively a third FAQ), and this one is very specific about how the answers are given. These are not official (unless stated to be otherwise), and are voted on by the mods. Mods are volunteers, and at no point does it mention consulting the Palladium staff for official answers. In fact, we're told they're not official unless stickied as such. Looking further on the Games F.A.Q. Archive we'll also see this post: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=114574

Once again, we're told it's NOT canonical.

Now I'll address the The Cutting Room Floor section. If we look at the Palladium Resources page: http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=198 Then we'll find this quote ...

What is on the Cutting Room Floor?

These are small snippets of old resources and useful tidbits that can help you in your games. Sometimes something gets left out of a book or there are some additional resources we can provide, you can find them here.

This tells us it's not just information excluded or forgotten out of books, but "additional resources." The term itself is rather vague, but it definitely opens up for other possibilities (such as a FanFAQ). Now, when we go to the actual Cutting Room Floor to find your quote, the FAQ section is NOT listed under that section. The Cutting Room Floor is listed on the right hand side, with the quote you mentioned earlier about it being material left out of books or out of print. On the left (not the right where we see your quote) we see a different heading in a different ... um ... I forget the term, pan? Tab? Anyways, this could be done for ease of navigation. However, this could also be done because the FAQ is an "additional resource" and NOT part of the same section discussing information left out of the book (as that note is in a different section). This would, of course, mesh with the rest of the FAQ listed above.

Another FAQ section can be found in some of the early the Rifters (approximately Issues #11-25, give or take). Technically they're called Q&A (not FAQ). Now, those articles are listed as "Official" on the Rifter Index found on these forums, as well as the former Nexus Nine Rifter Index. However, at no point do the Rifter Issues actually refer to them as "Official," even though they do for various other articles. Also, in the Best of the Rifter issue, which has an Official Rifter Index, the FAQ are NOT included. Palladium does NOT call these official at any point that I can find. Now, those articles were written by Shawn Merrow and Rodney Stott (I hope I spelled those both right), who were (I believe) interns at the time, and I believe currently still friends and/or freelancers of the company. Some of those articles even mention discussing questions with Kevin S. With that said, we don't know which questions were discussed with him and/or how much input he really put into them. We do know that Palladium did not list them as "Official" though.

All evidence I can find shows that the FAQ have not been official at any point. If Killer Cyborg has additional resources, I'd be really interested (that means I missed something, darn it!). And if someone has any evidence that some of the FAQ are official or canonical, I'd also be interested in that (I prefer accuracy over being right). Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Axelmania]

Where does it say in RUE they are only MDC? That they cannot also have HP?

Page 47, "is considered a mega-damage being now" when explaining why they are immune to attacks that do damage direct to hit points, i.e. they are immune to the attacks because they are mdc beings and thus have no hit points to affect. Otherwise, it would have given them hit points and said that they were immune to attacks unless you could somehow reach that part of the cyborg.

Inadequate. MDC protecting against direct to HP (as it functions like HP) does not mean it erases HP.

Necros who get 10 bonus MDC from merging with a Gargoylr hand or something do not lose their HP/SDC. They still have it. MDC just always gets hit first.

[Killer Cyborg]

Necros who get 10 bonus MDC from merging with a Gargoylr hand or something do not lose their HP/SDC. They still have it. MDC just always gets hit first.

What's your source that them having MDC protects them from direct-to-HP attacks?

[Axelmania]

I am assuming good faith in dreicunan citing RUE47 for that. Haven't checked.

[Killer Cyborg]

I am assuming good faith in dreicunan citing RUE47 for that. Haven't checked.

RUE 47 doesn't discuss necros.

[dreicunan]

Where does it say in RUE they are only MDC? That they cannot also have HP?

Page 47, "is considered a mega-damage being now" when explaining why they are immune to attacks that do damage direct to hit points, i.e. they are immune to the attacks because they are mdc beings and thus have no hit points to affect. Otherwise, it would have given them hit points and said that they were immune to attacks unless you could somehow reach that part of the cyborg.

Inadequate. MDC protecting against direct to HP (as it functions like HP) does not mean it erases HP.

Necros who get 10 bonus MDC from merging with a Gargoylr hand or something do not lose their HP/SDC. They still have it. MDC just always gets hit first.

That doesn't follow. If MDC functioned as HP, would not the logical move be to say that direct to HP attacks take away from the MDC (or at least that they do so if enough damage, 100 points, is inflicted to equal 1 MDC)?

And as KC pointed out, page 47 is not discussing necromancers. MDC from union with the dead lasts 10 mjnutes per level, but the power is unclear as to if you treat that as a sort of force field or if the whole body is transformed by the magic (at least near as I can tell from my reading of Africa). I don't recall ever seeing that addressed. It would be significant because it would determine if zero mdc means no more armor or dead. However, as that is clearly not the same situation as with a borg, its solution is also irrelevant to this discussion.

[Axelmania]

I never said 47 discussed necros. Used that as an example of how you can gain MDC where it says nothing about losing HP and SDC. It is not described as a force field so it would not protect my cutie necromancer lady's panties. You (your body) gains the MDC same as how Borgs gain MDC to their bodies. Borgs are like cyberknights with unsurpassable AR.

Yes a direct to HP attack doing 100 DMG would deplete 1 MDC. Not especially useful compared to 100 damage attacks in general.

What quote on 47 were you focusing on anyway?

[Eagle]

Game balance being what it is in Rifts, I'm not particularly worried about a weapon that can one-shot a borg. I've seen people get custom borgs and custom robots that can unleash an anime-level missile barrage at people. In my experience, getting something like that is the first priority of every borg player. So we're already dealing with the idea that if a player gets a highly-desired piece of equipment, he can one-shot really tough opponents.

Phase weapons are so rare that they only appear when the GM wants them to. And as a GM, I don't have to cheat to kill a character. I have as many enemies as I want, and they are whatever level I want. So what a phase weapon does versus a borg is really a question of what it will do for a PC, because I don't need them.

Official Palladium rules can be whatever they want. I accept that some people will want to follow those rules to the letter. But we also know that Kevin Siembieda doesn't even follow all of his own rules. Rifts is really a game of "mix and match" when it comes to what rules you follow and what you don't. I have no problem with saying "yeah, I'm not gonna do that".

[Killer Cyborg]

I never said 47 discussed necros. Used that as an example of how you can gain MDC where it says nothing about losing HP and SDC. It is not described as a force field so it would not protect my cutie necromancer lady's panties. You (your body) gains the MDC same as how Borgs gain MDC to their bodies. Borgs are like cyberknights with unsurpassable AR.

Let's review:

Where does it say in RUE they are only MDC? That they cannot also have HP?

Page 47, "is considered a mega-damage being now" when explaining why they are immune to attacks that do damage direct to hit points, i.e. they are immune to the attacks because they are mdc beings and thus have no hit points to affect. Otherwise, it would have given them hit points and said that they were immune to attacks unless you could somehow reach that part of the cyborg.

Necros who get 10 bonus MDC from merging with a Gargoylr hand or something do not lose their HP/SDC. They still have it. MDC just always gets hit first.

What's your source that them having MDC protects them from direct-to-HP attacks?

In the context of dreicunan citing the rule about Borgs being impervious to attacks that do damage direct to Hit Points, you brought up Necros, saying that not only do they have HP/SDC, but that their MDC "always gets hit first."
This made it look like you were staying on the topic of MDC providing imperviousness to direct to HP attacks, and claiming that Necros that did whatever thing you were talking about were impervious to direct to HP attacks (at least until their MDC is depleted).

That's what I was asking you about--where you were getting the idea that necros having MDC meant that they were impervious to direct-to-HP attacks.
Since you now don't seem to be saying that they are, I'll instead ask why you think that bringing up beings that aren't impervious to direct-to-HP attacks is relevant in a discussion about Borgs being impervious to HP attacks because they're MDC beings...?

[Blue_Lion]

@ killer cyborg

So I missed the part about james t having HP. I have always played with them just having MDC.-So I was in error.

There is a difference between a fan site faq about a companies product and the companies web page having a FaQ. Using a fan site faq as an example to undermine the a companies web page is a false equivalency attack.

Weather you like it or not PB empowered some one to put out a FaQ on their page. The person was working on PB behalf, that means they where working for PB interest in a manner PB gave them power to. Making them effectively employees/staff doing a task PB gave them the power to do.(not all people that work for a company are paid employees.)

Your opinion on it is noted, but as the books themselves also show at times a lack of understanding of what is the books it does not disprove them as official replies to a question. Heck the books themselves can be said to provide information that conflicts with canon, MDC stated as being rare but if you look most stated communities have a over abundance of it(it is rare but every town and village has it).


PB does not display a tendency to mark things as official however they do have a demonstrated pattern of marking fan made unofficial material as such.

I get it you do not like the FaQ and have a long list of complaints about it but is their any statement that says it is not what it apears and official reply by PB?

[dreicunan]

I never said 47 discussed necros. Used that as an example of how you can gain MDC where it says nothing about losing HP and SDC. It is not described as a force field so it would not protect my cutie necromancer lady's panties. You (your body) gains the MDC same as how Borgs gain MDC to their bodies. Borgs are like cyberknights with unsurpassable AR.

Yes a direct to HP attack doing 100 DMG would deplete 1 MDC. Not especially useful compared to 100 damage attacks in general.

What quote on 47 were you focusing on anyway?

Actually, as worded a "direct to hp" attack would do nothing to a Borg even if it did 1,000,000 damage, since Borgs are "impervious" to those attacks.

Borgs are clearly not cyberknights with unsurpassable AR. As page 47 of RUE make clear, borgs are considered mega-damage beings. Cyberkinghts are not.

[Axelmania]

Page 47 is clearly just pointing out that "direct to hit points" has no application since MDC is not split like H/S capacity is.

Something doing 100 damage still depletes 1 MDC. The damage having an SDC-bypass trait does not negate that.

What Borgs are impervious to is the attack targeting their HP while they have MDC present to protect them.

When they are down to 0 MDC they are temporarily not MDC beings and can be harmed normally.

Necromancers would work the same way.

Doesn't say anywhere they don't roll HP as normal.

[Killer Cyborg]

Page 47 is clearly just pointing out that "direct to hit points" has no application since MDC is not split like H/S capacity is.

Something doing 100 damage still depletes 1 MDC. The damage having an SDC-bypass trait does not negate that.

What Borgs are impervious to is the attack targeting their HP while they have MDC present to protect them.

When they are down to 0 MDC they are temporarily not MDC beings and can be harmed normally.

Necromancers would work the same way.

Doesn't say anywhere they don't roll HP as normal.

Direct-to-HP attacks would--when dealing with a creature that has both MDC and HP--bypass the MDC and go direct to hit points.
Hence the term.

[Alrik Vas]

Where does it say that if you lack a PE stat that you would still have HP, though? Borg's have endurance based on whether or not their body is still functioning, not whether or not they're tired.

They aren't stated to have anything like that past their frame. They did away with the idea, it would seem, but making them MDC beings by default. Not becoming one when they do a little trick, but being one permanently. The distinction is important because one is their default state and will not revert when circumstances change, so there's nothing to fall back on like with an enchantment.

[dreicunan]

Page 47 is clearly just pointing out that "direct to hit points" has no application since MDC is not split like H/S capacity is.

Something doing 100 damage still depletes 1 MDC. The damage having an SDC-bypass trait does not negate that.

What Borgs are impervious to is the attack targeting their HP while they have MDC present to protect them.

When they are down to 0 MDC they are temporarily not MDC beings and can be harmed normally.

Necromancers would work the same way.

Doesn't say anywhere they don't roll HP as normal.

It is "clearly" stating that they are impervious to attacks or weapons that do damage direct to hit points. The word impervious means just that. Many people may choose to read it as you have, but that is a reading in spite of what is written, because there is ni condition placed on the word "impervious".

[Prysus]

@ killer cyborg

So I missed the part about james t having HP. I have always played with them just having MDC.-So I was in error.

Greetings and Salutations. You directed this post at Killer Cyborg only, but everything that comes after the above lines as far as I can tell should be addressed to me. As far as I know he has yet to provide his sources for saying the FAQ are unofficial (I suspect I know which source he's thinking of, and I've listed it, though it's also possible that I missed a source that he has yet to reveal).

There is a difference between a fan site faq about a companies product and the companies web page having a FaQ. Using a fan site faq as an example to undermine the a companies web page is a false equivalency attack.

The sites I linked were the Palladium Books site. So your response is only relevant if you're saying the Palladium Books site is a fan site of Palladium Books and not official, in which case you're negating your validity of your source being official because it's from the Palladium Books site, which is an odd stance.

Your profile shows that you've been a member since 2001, which means you should know that the current look of the Palladium website is not the first and only look of the Palladium website that ever existed. The "fan site" you're dismissing is the Palladium website. The "fan site faq" you're dismissing as a "false equivalency attack" is the EXACT same information as the information you're holding up as official. When I say "the EXACT same" I mean the same questions, the same answers, the same wording, the same numbering, etc. At least, I haven't found any differences yet. Take your time, actually do some research.

Weather you like it or not PB empowered some one to put out a FaQ on their page. The person was working on PB behalf, that means they where working for PB interest in a manner PB gave them power to. Making them effectively employees/staff doing a task PB gave them the power to do.(not all people that work for a company are paid employees.)

Actually, the information you're promoting is from the "fan site faq" that you're also dismissing. Let's set that aside for the moment though. Okay, let's say that volunteers are employees and capable of giving official answers (that's an ugly can of worms to open, but I won't even go there). One of the links I provided shows how the FAQ are decided upon, but the mods of these forums. Okay, so now per your stance, the mods are official employees capable of giving official answers. Interesting note though, those same links I provided have the mods stating that their answers are NOT official. So if you feel they have the power to make official statements, why dismiss their "official" statement of it not being official, other than it disproves your stance?

Currently I'm suspecting you didn't bother to actually read the sources that YOU ASKED FOR. Instead, you just chose to dismiss them rather than actually reading the sources and giving an informed response to the facts presented.

Your opinion on it is noted, but as the books themselves also show at times a lack of understanding of what is the books it does not disprove them as official replies to a question. Heck the books themselves can be said to provide information that conflicts with canon, MDC stated as being rare but if you look most stated communities have a over abundance of it(it is rare but every town and village has it).

I actually agree with you here.

PB does not display a tendency to mark things as official however they do have a demonstrated pattern of marking fan made unofficial material as such.

You mean like the "Fan FAQ" that Palladium having "Fan" right at the start? Glad you agree.

Also, with the Rifters, Palladium DOES tend to mark what's official. Unless it's stated as "Official," it's designated as unofficial. That's in the front of every Rifter. Palladium did not, nor have I ever seen them do so, list the Q&A sections performed by interns at their office (I believe they were interns at the time, even have a PB e-mail address) as Official. That means that it's officially Unofficial, per Palladium.

I get it you do not like the FaQ and have a long list of complaints about it but is their any statement that says it is not what it apears and official reply by PB?

I've actually provided several pieces of evidence showing the FAQ as unofficial (including what you consider official sources stating they're unofficial). I'm waiting for you to show any actual evidence of the "fan site faq" being Official. I've taken the time to provide sources and references. You have taken the time to ... repeat your opinion. So perhaps it would help if you provide some sources, other than your opinion of how the FAQ should work based on your personal feelings. I'll be interested if you can actually provide any facts to support your current claim (because currently you're providing none). Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Nightmask]

PB does not display a tendency to mark things as official however they do have a demonstrated pattern of marking fan made unofficial material as such.

You mean like the "Fan FAQ" that Palladium having "Fan" right at the start? Glad you agree.

That's something of a ridiculous argument there, because saying 'Fan FAQ' does not even remotely mean 'fan ANSWERED questions' it means 'fan frequently ASKED questions'. Right there in the title it's obviously saying that they're frequently asked fan questions along with answers that clearly come from Palladium and NOT just some fan's fanon.

[Prysus]

PB does not display a tendency to mark things as official however they do have a demonstrated pattern of marking fan made unofficial material as such.

You mean like the "Fan FAQ" that Palladium having "Fan" right at the start? Glad you agree.

That's something of a ridiculous argument there, because saying 'Fan FAQ' does not even remotely mean 'fan ANSWERED questions' it means 'fan frequently ASKED questions'. Right there in the title it's obviously saying that they're frequently asked fan questions along with answers that clearly come from Palladium and NOT just some fan's fanon.

Greetings and Salutations. Well, Blue Lion dismissed the site (the Palladium website with that section) as a FAQ done by fans, so I stopped arguing. Setting that aside, I did actually list what you mentioned as a possibility originally ...

First, this is listed as a "FanFaq," which is interesting. If this was official, it should simply be listed as "FAQ." While it could mean that fans are the ones asking the questions, this would be a little silly to state. After all, if fans aren't asking the questions, it would imply employees are asking the questions (which would be bad) or people who don't know or like the system (which would also be a little odd). Listing it as such would indicate that these are fan asked and answered. Of course, this is Palladium, so it's hard to be sure. Note: The question and answer of the topic IS found in this section.

As I said, it would be odd and redundant for them to list it that way, but seeing as this is Palladium I won't say it's out of the question. However, that is the second incarnation of the Palladium FAQ. The first is from the Palladium Mailing List, which as I stated earlier, is (to my understanding) the equivalent of these forums (before they had forums) in e-mail form. To show you part of the first FAQ (linked above) though ...

Q. What is the Palladium Mailing List and how do I subscribe?

A. The Palladium mailing list is something which was started out in Berkeley, CA (or at least thats where I found it). Recently it has been moved. To subscribe send a message to pml-request@ground-zero.mit.edu. In the body of the message should be subscribe. If you don't want a LOT of e-mail this is not the list to subscribe to. It averages between 50-200 messages a day.

So, not run by Palladium. We also have the third incarnation of the FAQ (which the second incarnation, the FanFAQ, directs us to for answers to questions), these forums. So the first was NOT run by Palladium, and the third is clearly stated as unofficial. So while it's possible the second incarnation broke the mold and went official, then directed us to unofficial sources for a continuation of its services, combined with the otherwise redundant "Fan" note at the start, I find it unlikely. If someone can provide actual evidence, as opposed to simple claims, I'd be greatly interested. However, I'm interested in someone finding actual evidence/statements to prove it instead of just claiming it must be official because it supports their personal stance.

To me, the evidence (first and third incarnation, and the second incarnation referencing both and directing you to the third) and an otherwise redundant and meaningless listing of "Fan" at the start suggests otherwise. However, I don't mind being wrong, if someone can actually show some support of that instead of just claiming something and hoping everyone believes them. So once again, I'll wait for someone to actually do some research and show support for their claims, as opposed to just trusting claims made without any support. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Library Ogre]

So, let's assume, for a moment, that Phase Weapons will quickly and easily kill any full conversion cyborg... just score a spinal or brain hit and BOOM. Dead cyborg.

How greatly is a holdout phase beamer feared by a wolfen quatoria? Given that such weapons exist in the world that quatoria operate in, how (aside from constant force fields) does a quatoria protect himself from being instagibbed? How effective would a dual-purpose skin-stripper (something that does enough damage to remove the quatoria's skincoat) and phase beamer be at popping a dog robocop?

[Killer Cyborg]

@ killer cyborg

So I missed the part about james t having HP. I have always played with them just having MDC.-So I was in error.

James T isn't the only one. Maybe the weird CS experiment Borg in VK was another, or maybe just some random early NPC FCBs. I forget.
But one of the reasons why I linked to the LAST big argument we had about this specific topic (borgs vs. phase weapons) is because we already covered this kind of thing in stupidly intense detail, including which borgs were listed with HP or SDC in addition to their MDC, and a bunch of other stuff.

I also remember this coming up as an issue back in the early days of Rifts, because well before Phase Beams were even a thing, people were wondering how to stat their FCBs. Most NPCs didn't have HP listed, but the rules didn't say not to roll them up, and some borgs DID have them.... there were arguments about it online and at the gaming table.

While later books didn't (AFAIK) ever include more borgs with HP statted, it would still pop up in debates now and then, until the big Phase Beam question popped up, we all argued about it for a long, long, long time, and finally Tinker Dragoon (who was moderating the thread) asked Kev via a Nokia interview whether or not Borgs had any Hit Points or SDC:

tinker_dragoon asks: This has been kicking around on the Palladium Books forums for awhile now, and I can't take it anymore. Do Rifts Cyborgs have Hit Points and S.D.C. or not?
kevinsiembieda: No full conversion 'borgs are Mega-Damage beings
kevinsiembieda: MDC only

Then RUE came out, and P. 47 (likely because of Tinker's question and/or the general arguments) clarified that "Combat Cyborgs/Full Conversion Borgs... are impervious to...any attacks or weapons that do damage direct to Hit Points" for the reason of "(is considered a Mega-Damage being now).

And while this basic topic tries to resurrect itself periodically, it's about as settled as things get.
Borgs are Mega-Damage Beings.
The damage for Phase Beams against Mega-Damage Beings is specifically listed. It's mega-damage.
If you fire a PH-21 Phase Beamer, for example, at any Mega-Damage being--be it a dragon, Machine , or a full conversion Borg--the weapon inflicts 4d6 MD.
Phase Beams cannot damage the HP of a Full Conversion Borg, because FCBs have no Hit Points to damage.

I don't remember anybody else taking your particular tack of positing that the FAQ could technically be listing an exception to the rule, but as I said, the actual rule that Borgs don't have SDC/HP wasn't written yet. It didn't pop up officially until RUE.
And, of course, it was written in the old FAQ, which brings us to...

There is a difference between a fan site faq about a companies product and the companies web page having a FaQ. Using a fan site faq as an example to undermine the a companies web page is a false equivalency attack.

Not really, no. It's an example of how fans answering question simply doesn't count as official word.
As Prysus pointed out with his typical thoroughness, the Palladium FAQ is a "Fan FAQ," and was even originally called such.

Weather you like it or not PB empowered some one to put out a FaQ on their page.

Yeah, sure... but that doesn't mean anything.
Remember, the current--and more respected--FAQ is a forum discussion, often with questions answered by consensus. Palladium empowers us in the forums to answer their FAQ, but I don't think that makes our answers official on any meaningful level.
Do you...?

The person was working on PB behalf, that means they where working for PB interest in a manner PB gave them power to. Making them effectively employees/staff doing a task PB gave them the power to do.(not all people that work for a company are paid employees.)

Sweet!!
Since I've helped answer questions in the new FAQ, I'm effectively a Palladium Employee/Staff Member.


(But please don't take my word as being officially sanctioned in any meaningful way.)

Your opinion on it is noted, but as the books themselves also show at times a lack of understanding of what is the books it does not disprove them as official replies to a question. Heck the books themselves can be said to provide information that conflicts with canon, MDC stated as being rare but if you look most stated communities have a over abundance of it(it is rare but every town and village has it).

I agree that canon can conflict with canon, BUT the old FAQ was rife with basic issues, more so than canon is.
(We can argue about the relative rarity of MDC another time. )

PB does not display a tendency to mark things as official however they do have a demonstrated pattern of marking fan made unofficial material as such.
I get it you do not like the FaQ and have a long list of complaints about it but is their any statement that says it is not what it apears and official reply by PB?

It appears to me to be a FAQ answered by Palladium fans, who would sometimes ask Palladium employees for assistance on what the fans deemed to be "really tough questions."
What does it appear to be to you?
To you, does it really seem like something that Palladium put any thought or effort into, running all questions by knowledgeable official staff members?
Does it seem like something that Kevin, Palladium in general, or any current writers would take into consideration when either writing new books, or when running their own games?
(Before you answer, you might benefit from taking the time to not only review Prysus' recent posts on the history of the FAQs, but also to open up the old FAQ in question, and read through a bunch of their answers.)

[Axelmania]

Page 47 is clearly just pointing out that "direct to hit points" has no application since MDC is not split like H/S capacity is.

Something doing 100 damage still depletes 1 MDC. The damage having an SDC-bypass trait does not negate that.

What Borgs are impervious to is the attack targeting their HP while they have MDC present to protect them.

When they are down to 0 MDC they are temporarily not MDC beings and can be harmed normally.

Necromancers would work the same way.

Doesn't say anywhere they don't roll HP as normal.

Direct-to-HP attacks would--when dealing with a creature that has both MDC and HP--bypass the MDC and go direct to hit points.
Hence the term.

Except MDC functions like HP too, so it goes directly to that first.

Page 47 is clearly just pointing out that "direct to hit points" has no application since MDC is not split like H/S capacity is.

Something doing 100 damage still depletes 1 MDC. The damage having an SDC-bypass trait does not negate that.

What Borgs are impervious to is the attack targeting their HP while they have MDC present to protect them.

When they are down to 0 MDC they are temporarily not MDC beings and can be harmed normally.

Necromancers would work the same way.

Doesn't say anywhere they don't roll HP as normal.

It is "clearly" stating that they are impervious to attacks or weapons that do damage direct to hit points. The word impervious means just that. Many people may choose to read it as you have, but that is a reading in spite of what is written, because there is ni condition placed on the word "impervious".

It is impervious to direct-to-HP because it interferes and puts something in the way of the directness, meaning it is no longer a direct to HP attack.

It doesntnegate the attack altogether.

For example, death blows are direct to HP and wearing environmental Dead Boy armor makes me impervious to them.

Not because I negate them altogether: a PS 115 puncher with +100 damage will still deplete 1 MDC off the armor.

But because I have MDC in the way (GI Joe rule) death blows cannot hit me so long as I have MDC left.

Borg HP / SDC is exposed once MDC is gone. You can't enjoy MDC protection at O MDC!

Phase Weapons are not direct to HP weapons. They are "ignores your armor". Phase Weapons are not covered under the phrasing.

The question here is whether the 75 MDC base is explicitly alive like 4+ cyberknight armor or not.

[dreicunan]

Page 47 is clearly just pointing out that "direct to hit points" has no application since MDC is not split like H/S capacity is.

Something doing 100 damage still depletes 1 MDC. The damage having an SDC-bypass trait does not negate that.

What Borgs are impervious to is the attack targeting their HP while they have MDC present to protect them.

When they are down to 0 MDC they are temporarily not MDC beings and can be harmed normally.

Necromancers would work the same way.

Doesn't say anywhere they don't roll HP as normal.

Direct-to-HP attacks would--when dealing with a creature that has both MDC and HP--bypass the MDC and go direct to hit points.
Hence the term.

Except MDC functions like HP too, so it goes directly to that first.

Page 47 is clearly just pointing out that "direct to hit points" has no application since MDC is not split like H/S capacity is.

Something doing 100 damage still depletes 1 MDC. The damage having an SDC-bypass trait does not negate that.

What Borgs are impervious to is the attack targeting their HP while they have MDC present to protect them.

When they are down to 0 MDC they are temporarily not MDC beings and can be harmed normally.

Necromancers would work the same way.

Doesn't say anywhere they don't roll HP as normal.

It is "clearly" stating that they are impervious to attacks or weapons that do damage direct to hit points. The word impervious means just that. Many people may choose to read it as you have, but that is a reading in spite of what is written, because there is ni condition placed on the word "impervious".

It is impervious to direct-to-HP because it interferes and puts something in the way of the directness, meaning it is no longer a direct to HP attack.

It doesntnegate the attack altogether.

For example, death blows are direct to HP and wearing environmental Dead Boy armor makes me impervious to them.

Not because I negate them altogether: a PS 115 puncher with +100 damage will still deplete 1 MDC off the armor.

But because I have MDC in the way (GI Joe rule) death blows cannot hit me so long as I have MDC left.

Borg HP / SDC is exposed once MDC is gone. You can't enjoy MDC protection at O MDC!

Phase Weapons are not direct to HP weapons. They are "ignores your armor". Phase Weapons are not covered under the phrasing.

The question here is whether the 75 MDC base is explicitly alive like 4+ cyberknight armor or not.

Impervious means impervious, not conditionally vulnerable. As KC just got done explaining again, Full Conversion Borgs do not have any HP/sdc to expose. They are megadamage only. Thus, phase weapons damage the mdc being, in this case a Borg, just like any other mdc being; doing damage to the main body. (and no one claimed that phase weapons were direct to hp weapons, but thanks for letting us know that you aren't, either). As KC pointed out, the matter is settled. The only question is why some people can't accept that.

If you don't like the canon rule, Kevin S would tell you to change it, but don't pretend that canon isn't canon.

[Killer Cyborg]

Page 47 is clearly just pointing out that "direct to hit points" has no application since MDC is not split like H/S capacity is.

Something doing 100 damage still depletes 1 MDC. The damage having an SDC-bypass trait does not negate that.

What Borgs are impervious to is the attack targeting their HP while they have MDC present to protect them.

When they are down to 0 MDC they are temporarily not MDC beings and can be harmed normally.

Necromancers would work the same way.

Doesn't say anywhere they don't roll HP as normal.

Direct-to-HP attacks would--when dealing with a creature that has both MDC and HP--bypass the MDC and go direct to hit points.
Hence the term.

Except MDC functions like HP too, so it goes directly to that first.

Right. I'm done with you here unless you stop making up random stuff.

[Eagle]

Regarding FAQ answers on their website, it seems related to the legal doctrine of whether someone appears to be an agent of the company.

Let's say I own a company, Flancrest Enterprises. And because I'm a nice guy, I let my idiot neighbor drive around in a company truck, wear a company uniform, and carry a company clipboard. He doesn't actually work for the company, but it makes him feel important so I let him do it. So a few months go by and suddenly I'm getting sued. What's going on? Well it turns out that my neighbor has been driving around, placing orders, signing contracts, buying equipment, and he's been signing forms saying he's VP of Flancrest Enterprises. And of course I didn't know about it, so we haven't paid for any of the things he bought, or delivered any of the products that he took orders for. So am I on the hook for what my idiot neighbor did?

Generally, yes. Now he's not an employee, but I let him use a company truck and wear a company uniform. To the people he dealt with, he appeared to be somebody with the company. He had a clipboard and everything. I was aware (or should have been aware) that he might appear to be a representative of the company. And I let him go for months and months without checking to see what he was doing with my company property, and without supervising him properly. I very well may have to pay a lot of money to fix his mess. He appeared to be an agent of the company.

So how does this relate to a FAQ? Well, we're on Palladiumbooks.com. It appears to be the company's official website. This appears to be a set of forums that are maintained by the company, under their direct supervision. If there's something stickied at the top of their forum, answering questions about the game, then it probably appears to be an official statement from the company. I wasn't around for the old FAQ, but if there were enough indicators that a regular, normal (i.e., a very stupid) person might think it was official, then if it somehow went to court, it would probably be regarded as officially from the company. It doesn't matter what the status of the person who wrote it actually is, what matters is how it appears to an average (i.e., dumb) person. So from the conversation so far, it appears to me that the old FAQ would be seen as "official". Obviously a newer FAQ would overrule that. But all the argument about who really created it is irrelevant if Palladium had it up on their website for years and years.

[Alrik Vas]

Nature of MDC was stated to have changed that 100 SDC dealt from an SDC source doesn't actually damage MDC in general.

There are notes of certain pieces of equipment or creatures that are SDC that can deal or have MDC, but this isn't the rule, and seem to be exceptions, generally attributed to their own setting (like 1st edition Robotech's zentradi being SDC but having so much they can deal or take Mega Damage attacks. I don't know if this was changed in 2nd edition).

[Axelmania]

KC did not make up, MDC having HP function was explained somewhere. Maybe the CB.

Borg MDC is machine not alive. Is why it doesn't heal. Why magic healing spells do not help.

In regard to Quatoria their 100 SDC covering is alive, the 350 MDC is not, then the HP and 30+ SDC is under that.

Everyone has HP until they explicitly do not. Even if it isn't listed. It is a basic rule. In DB2 for example Wolfen did not list HP, only SDC. That omission did not mean they were without HP.

[Killer Cyborg]

KC did not make up, MDC having HP function was explained somewhere. Maybe the CB.

Oh, sure.
Let me know when you find it.

Borg MDC is machine not alive. Is why it doesn't heal. Why magic healing spells do not help.

Completely irrelevant to anything.

Everyone has HP until they explicitly do not.

Nope. Try again.
If you're going to pull answers out of your hat, at least pretend to cite some sources.

[Axelmania]

KC going back, RMB only had rules for dying if your HP was reduced beyond PE below zero. Ergo the Borgs / Dragons and Monsters/Xiticix/Beetles/Dinosaurs were immortal unless you acknowledge they had HP. Neither were excluded from Step 2 of character creation.

RMBp10 had step 2
RMBp12 had Step 3 which described MDC as."super structural damage capacity"

CBp18 mentions MD Creatures' flesh is armor-like skin.
CBp21 mentions natural MDC works just like hit points and that 0 MDC produces a coma. Prior to this you would also need to reduce HP to 0 to cause that.

So the full answer is MDC has properties like SDC (it takes damage before hit points, the shadow beast had 90 hit points and 2 MDC in darkness) and HP (reaching 0 produced coma, reaching negative PE causes death)

Here is an interesting experiment: rules say MDC beings heal 2D6 MD per day.

Can you prove that Borgs do not heal?

[Prysus]

Regarding FAQ answers on their website, it seems related to the legal doctrine of whether someone appears to be an agent of the company.

Greetings and Salutations. I can see the point you're making. I suppose a part of this comes down to whether someone is simply trying to win an argument, or they're actually looking for the truth/accuracy. As an individual, I prefer the truth. I'd rather lose an argument and learn something than win the argument in favor of staying ignorant.

So let's take your scenario. Whether or not you're found responsible (due to your negligence, and lots of stupidity) or not is irrelevant to the question: Was he actually working on your behalf?

You may be held responsible and need to pay for damages as a result of his actions, but the fact is he wasn't actually working for you or even an employee. So people can claim he was really your employee and you were using him to take advantage of people, but that doesn't make it true.

So how does this relate to a FAQ? [snip] It doesn't matter what the status of the person who wrote it actually is, what matters is how it appears to an average (i.e., dumb) person.

See, this is where we disagree. I genuinely don't care for what a dumb person thinks (unless they're trying to learn, in which case I'll try to help). You're taking the stance of if you can win an argument it's correct regardless if it's accurate, while I'm seeking the truth. Honestly, I have almost zero interest in being in a discussion simply to win an argument at any cost. That's one of the main reasons I don't post here that often.

If there's something stickied at the top of their forum, answering questions about the game, then it probably appears to be an official statement from the company. I wasn't around for the old FAQ ...

This wasn't a sticky, this was a separate page on the website. I linked to it earlier, but I'll post the link again since i had directed that post to someone else.

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/questions/index.html

That should be exactly how it looked at the time. At the top of the page is written ...

FanFAQ Index
Updated: 06/11/02

This is a new version of the FanFaq. What it does is take the FanFaq and cut them down to just the questions and answers. They have then been broken down by category. This way you don't have to scan through tons of character class related rules when you want something on magic.

Please let us know if you have any questions or comments about Palladium Books. If it's a game question please post it on the Q&A Forum (linked below).

First, I'll add this as a reminder: This is the "new version" of the FAQ. The other version was from the PML, which was NOT run by Palladium (though it was about Palladium).

Next, this is referred to as "FanFAQ." Whether or not this means fan asked and officially answered by employees or a FAQ done by fans is a matter of some debate. I personally find the first usage of "fan" as silly and redundant, but possible. I find the second more plausible. Let's look at a different example.

That same Palladium website (the old version with the FanFAQ) also had a Palladium Web Ring with fan sites. Does the usage of "fan sites" mean official Palladium sites that fans visit and might enjoy or does it mean sites created and run by fans? Whether someone thinks the first one makes more sense or even if they could win a court case using the first one is irrelevant to me, because it's simply inaccurate. For some reason though (with zero evidence provided so far), some people find "fan site" as done by fans but "Fan FAQ" as super official!

So for your previous example, I find this more like: You had the words "NOT AN EMPLOYEE" stitched across the front of the uniform and painted across the company truck you let him use. Then in court everyone says: "Well, yeah, I saw that, but I figured if he wasn't an employee than he must've owned the company." And somehow some people find that the only logical explanation. While it's possible that's what the message could mean, I don't find this the sensible first conclusion nor will it stop me from staring at such people with bewilderment. Now, I will add this ...

The current Palladium site is definitely misleading: http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200

The usage of "FanFAQ" has been removed and replaced simply with "FAQ." This could be for clarification, however I find it more likely (based on the history of the FAQ as detailed above) that the entire opening was removed for space purposes (a much smaller window pan that before). If I were new to the site I'd be thinking that's official, but I've been around long enough to actually know more of the history (and have been able to provide actual sources to indicate an unofficial status).

If, on the other hand, someone can provide actual evidence/sources to support it being official, then I'm interested. However, simply repeating an opinion with zero support, or attempting to win an argument through technicalities instead of truth, isn't going to magically sway me. For the record, I don't care about the Borg verse Phase Weapons debate as a whole. I do not actually play Rifts. I saw a request for sources which I was able to provide, hence I posted. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Killer Cyborg]

Good posts, as always, Prysus.



My view:
If there was a law firm that had on their website a "Frequently Asked Legal Questions" section,
If they had those questions answered by volunteers without any law degree,
If those volunteers sometimes--when confronted by a question that they personally knew of no legal answer to--simply made up new laws that didn't exist anywhere on the official books,
Then I would agree that those volunteers would count as representatives of the law firm in question, for the purposes of any lawsuit against the firm based on the poor/inaccurate quality of the FALQ.

But their answers would still be rather meaningless when it came to determining what the law actually is, technically "official" or not.

[The Beast]

All I'm saying is that this is how the FAQ should be treated.

[Killer Cyborg]

All I'm saying is that this is how the FAQ should be treated.

[Eagle]

Good posts, as always, Prysus.



My view:
If there was a law firm that had on their website a "Frequently Asked Legal Questions" section,
If they had those questions answered by volunteers without any law degree,
If those volunteers sometimes--when confronted by a question that they personally knew of no legal answer to--simply made up new laws that didn't exist anywhere on the official books,
Then I would agree that those volunteers would count as representatives of the law firm in question, for the purposes of any lawsuit against the firm based on the poor/inaccurate quality of the FALQ.

But their answers would still be rather meaningless when it came to determining what the law actually is, technically "official" or not.

Sure, but the law firm doesn't determine what the law is. Palladium does determine what the rules of Palladium games are.

[Killer Cyborg]

Good posts, as always, Prysus.



My view:
If there was a law firm that had on their website a "Frequently Asked Legal Questions" section,
If they had those questions answered by volunteers without any law degree,
If those volunteers sometimes--when confronted by a question that they personally knew of no legal answer to--simply made up new laws that didn't exist anywhere on the official books,
Then I would agree that those volunteers would count as representatives of the law firm in question, for the purposes of any lawsuit against the firm based on the poor/inaccurate quality of the FALQ.

But their answers would still be rather meaningless when it came to determining what the law actually is, technically "official" or not.

Sure, but the law firm doesn't determine what the law is. Palladium does determine what the rules of Palladium games are.

Right--Palladium.
Not random volunteers who often don't know what they're talking about, even if Palladium posts their thoughts.
Again, the current FAQ is answered by consensus of forum posters who show up to give their opinions.
It has zero bearing on what Palladium's rules are.

[Eagle]

Good posts, as always, Prysus.



My view:
If there was a law firm that had on their website a "Frequently Asked Legal Questions" section,
If they had those questions answered by volunteers without any law degree,
If those volunteers sometimes--when confronted by a question that they personally knew of no legal answer to--simply made up new laws that didn't exist anywhere on the official books,
Then I would agree that those volunteers would count as representatives of the law firm in question, for the purposes of any lawsuit against the firm based on the poor/inaccurate quality of the FALQ.

But their answers would still be rather meaningless when it came to determining what the law actually is, technically "official" or not.

Sure, but the law firm doesn't determine what the law is. Palladium does determine what the rules of Palladium games are.

Right--Palladium.
Not random volunteers who often don't know what they're talking about, even if Palladium posts their thoughts.
Again, the current FAQ is answered by consensus of forum posters who show up to give their opinions.
It has zero bearing on what Palladium's rules are.

No, now you're doubling back and ignoring my initial post. I've already covered that.

If there's a FAQ on the Palladium website, and it's on its own page or stickied or whatever, and appears to look official, then it basically is official. What happened behind the curtain to get the FAQ up there is irrelevant. This wasn't something that was posted for 3 days after their site was hacked until they could get it taken down. This is something that has existed for well over a decade, as I understand it. Palladium is either well aware of it, or they should be well aware of it. There's tacit approval there by the company.

[Zer0 Kay]

And THIS is why they started moving internal organs around in borgs.

"My brains in my foot. That's why I don't like kicking much."

[Library Ogre]

And THIS is why they started moving internal organs around in borgs.

"My brains in my foot. That's why I don't like kicking much."

"I shot his head off! What do you mean that didn't kill his brain?"

"Why on earth would a designed mechanical creature keep its thinking apparatus in an extruding limb, when there's all that nice torso to work with?"

[Killer Cyborg]

Good posts, as always, Prysus.



My view:
If there was a law firm that had on their website a "Frequently Asked Legal Questions" section,
If they had those questions answered by volunteers without any law degree,
If those volunteers sometimes--when confronted by a question that they personally knew of no legal answer to--simply made up new laws that didn't exist anywhere on the official books,
Then I would agree that those volunteers would count as representatives of the law firm in question, for the purposes of any lawsuit against the firm based on the poor/inaccurate quality of the FALQ.

But their answers would still be rather meaningless when it came to determining what the law actually is, technically "official" or not.

Sure, but the law firm doesn't determine what the law is. Palladium does determine what the rules of Palladium games are.

Right--Palladium.
Not random volunteers who often don't know what they're talking about, even if Palladium posts their thoughts.
Again, the current FAQ is answered by consensus of forum posters who show up to give their opinions.
It has zero bearing on what Palladium's rules are.

No, now you're doubling back and ignoring my initial post. I've already covered that.

Disagreement is not the same as ignoring.

If there's a FAQ on the Palladium website, and it's on its own page or stickied or whatever, and appears to look official, then it basically is official. What happened behind the curtain to get the FAQ up there is irrelevant. This wasn't something that was posted for 3 days after their site was hacked until they could get it taken down. This is something that has existed for well over a decade, as I understand it. Palladium is either well aware of it, or they should be well aware of it. There's tacit approval there by the company.

I've already covered that, adequately.
You can argue that it's "official," but it's not any kind of official that matters.
Unless you are trying to claim that the FAQs DO affect the official (canon) rules of the game?

If the US government had a fan-written FAQ on their website--whether it was titled Fan-FAQ or not--do you believe that would alter US law?

[eliakon]

Good posts, as always, Prysus.



My view:
If there was a law firm that had on their website a "Frequently Asked Legal Questions" section,
If they had those questions answered by volunteers without any law degree,
If those volunteers sometimes--when confronted by a question that they personally knew of no legal answer to--simply made up new laws that didn't exist anywhere on the official books,
Then I would agree that those volunteers would count as representatives of the law firm in question, for the purposes of any lawsuit against the firm based on the poor/inaccurate quality of the FALQ.

But their answers would still be rather meaningless when it came to determining what the law actually is, technically "official" or not.

Sure, but the law firm doesn't determine what the law is. Palladium does determine what the rules of Palladium games are.

Right--Palladium.
Not random volunteers who often don't know what they're talking about, even if Palladium posts their thoughts.
Again, the current FAQ is answered by consensus of forum posters who show up to give their opinions.
It has zero bearing on what Palladium's rules are.

No, now you're doubling back and ignoring my initial post. I've already covered that.

If there's a FAQ on the Palladium website, and it's on its own page or stickied or whatever, and appears to look official, then it basically is official. What happened behind the curtain to get the FAQ up there is irrelevant. This wasn't something that was posted for 3 days after their site was hacked until they could get it taken down. This is something that has existed for well over a decade, as I understand it. Palladium is either well aware of it, or they should be well aware of it. There's tacit approval there by the company.

Again why?
You wanting something to be canon doesn't make it canon.
Simply because Palladium made it available does not make it official. To be official it needs to be, wait for it, declared official.
That is why some things ARE stated to be official. Because the default condition is that things are not official.