Painting Yourself into a Corner?

[lbrucegray]

Hi!

It seems to me that Rifts World has painted itself into a corner. With the release of "Megaverse in Flames" - with the release of at least two more different evil races that seem unstoppable, where would the world turn to in the darkest hour? If you want my opinion, I think the current forces of good are almost overwhelmed =before= the Rift to the demonic realms opened. So, to coin a phrase "Who You Gonna Call?"

Bruce

[boring7]

Honestly? Anything tough enough to whack an alien intelligence is tough enough to assassinate the kings of hell, and thereby collapse both sides into in-fighting.

Alternatively you go to Lone Star, gene-jack a plague that kills demons (and pretty much only demons) and send in Jacob Doe.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Ehh. the invasion on Rifts earth sounds terrible because you're told how terrible it is. In reality the numbers presented aren't actually that hard to overcome when you look at the forces arrayed against them.

it's HYPED UP Like crazy but if you work the math, it's not actually -that- huge a deal. It's no walk in the park but can be put down with effort.

[eliakon]

Its not that bad.
They just say "And then some plucky heroes all stopped the Hell Pits hooray" and that's more or less that.
All that will be left is more random encounter fodder some NPCs and a couple new wretched hives of scum and villainy.
I see it as being no different than the Four Horsemen or the Mechanoids or Nexla or pretty much any of the other "OMG the end of the world is here, you must go forth and save the world" plots. Which is its the flavor of the day for some campaigns and it advances the meta... but it will have no major effect on the world, unless of course the authors want that. Then of course it will, you can look at Tolkeen for an example of this.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Ehh. the invasion on Rifts earth sounds terrible because you're told how terrible it is. In reality the numbers presented aren't actually that hard to overcome when you look at the forces arrayed against them.

it's HYPED UP Like crazy but if you work the math, it's not actually -that- huge a deal. It's no walk in the park but can be put down with effort.

Particularly given that 90% of the demon and deevil forces are lesser demons/deevils or minion races (Sub-demons and "Host") that are laughably weak. A single platoon of CS Linebacker tanks could kill tens of thousands of most of the lesser demon types without ever even exposing themselves to harm.

A platoon of CS troops could cut down ten times their number, easily, before the demons could close to the range of even their newfangled ranged weapons introduced in MiF (which only 10-15% of demons/deevils even have/will use).

It really isn't as bad as it looks.

[HWalsh]

Ehh. the invasion on Rifts earth sounds terrible because you're told how terrible it is. In reality the numbers presented aren't actually that hard to overcome when you look at the forces arrayed against them.

it's HYPED UP Like crazy but if you work the math, it's not actually -that- huge a deal. It's no walk in the park but can be put down with effort.

Particularly given that 90% of the demon and deevil forces are lesser demons/deevils or minion races (Sub-demons and "Host") that are laughably weak. A single platoon of CS Linebacker tanks could kill tens of thousands of most of the lesser demon types without ever even exposing themselves to harm.

A platoon of CS troops could cut down ten times their number, easily, before the demons could close to the range of even their newfangled ranged weapons introduced in MiF (which only 10-15% of demons/deevils even have/will use).

It really isn't as bad as it looks.

Right, in order for it to be as bad as it seems you need something really bad to happen and it has to happen to the CS. They are the bulk of the army after all. Something like a Psi-Bat gets infected, it gets into Chi-Town, it spreads like wildfire and then the CS psychics all go crazy. They get paranoid, they, in the middle of MiF try to take out the CS leadership.

Karl Prosek gets nailed by something nasty and suddenly there is indecision in the CS. Joseph Prosek goes nuts and goes against his father, or is killed and replaced somehow. You need something to knock the CS out of whack for the Minion War to even matter.

[eliakon]

The Minion war can matter...
...if the GM wants it to.
Other wise it doesn't.
If the GM wants to play up how dangerous the demons are then it can be pretty grim. If the GM wants to gloss over that and play up the strengths of the opposition it can be a curb stomp fest. It can be anything in between as well...
...just depending on how the GM adjusts the various knobs on their game settings.
In the long term though I doubt that it will have much impact, simply because the company is not big on invalidating large quantities of previous material. Thus while the war could result in, say, the American West becoming a demonic wasteland with the human cities all over run and destroyed...
...I doubt it would happen because that would invalidate most of New West, Spirit West, and Arnzo.
Of course an individual GM might do that in their game because they are less tied to canon.

[boring7]

A lot of the demon battles seem to follow the same pattern. A REALLY big force of demons manages to rift in, makes a very big mess right where they landed and kill all the local forces because they're basically beat cops getting attacked by actual military, and THEN...The actual military shows up and foofs the demonic incursion so fast it doesn't even get much fluff text.

Hell, it's how the war STARTED. 5000 worms of taut and a great big beachhead force died while causing minimal damage to Hades (or was it Dyvval? It doesn't matter...) and the demons that sent the attack considered it a victory because the royalty/caste system seems to have left the leadership self-deluded and disconnected.

Of course that is the flip side: As long as the Kings of Hades and Dyvval think they're doing okay (and disastrous losses of 'worthless plebs' is 'doing okay') they're going to keep engaging in this dick-waving contest. Unless the writers get bored, at which point it stops because they got bored.

Writer fiat is also why the CS is so involved, well that and Tolkeen. It's implicit that making a huge mess of the Minnesota leylines and nexus points is why so many hellpits are forming there. Unstable and over-energized leylines are what caused the Rifts in the first place. "Nice job breaking it hero" as the trope goes...

[Axelmania]

The big CS military would have huge probs against lesser demons or dyvalians who ise decent tactics. Question is if they do. Lasae are small and could use cove masterfully. Invisiturners are a big deal. Nobody has infrared on all the time.

[dreicunan]

The whole "this totally isn't the Blood War, we definitely didn't rip off TSR here" (actually I'm now questioning myself here. Chaos Lands came out in 2001 and as I recall introduced the great rift. Had Palladium fantasy established the demon and devils fighting each other like that prior to 1991 when the blood war became part of Planescape?) would end much more quickly if they just tried to attack each other in their home planes more often. Since no one really stays dead unless killed in Hades or Dyval, this war should be non-stop incursions into the enemy dimension so that you actually accomplish something permanent. That, or they should retcon dying in the home dimension being permanent to no longer be the case.

[eliakon]

The whole "this totally isn't the Blood War, we definitely didn't rip off TSR here" (actually I'm now questioning myself here. Chaos Lands came out in 2001 and as I recall introduced the great rift. Had Palladium fantasy established the demon and devils fighting each other like that prior to 1991 when the blood war became part of Planescape?) would end much more quickly if they just tried to attack each other in their home planes more often. Since no one really stays dead unless killed in Hades or Dyval, this war should be non-stop incursions into the enemy dimension so that you actually accomplish something permanent. That, or they should retcon dying in the home dimension being permanent to no longer be the case.

The Blood War predates Planescape...
and yeah the minion war is totally a bad expy of the Blood War, though with out any of the logic or logistics or any of it...
...just the "hey that's cool, lets copy that"

[dreicunan]

The whole "this totally isn't the Blood War, we definitely didn't rip off TSR here" (actually I'm now questioning myself here. Chaos Lands came out in 2001 and as I recall introduced the great rift. Had Palladium fantasy established the demon and devils fighting each other like that prior to 1991 when the blood war became part of Planescape?) would end much more quickly if they just tried to attack each other in their home planes more often. Since no one really stays dead unless killed in Hades or Dyval, this war should be non-stop incursions into the enemy dimension so that you actually accomplish something permanent. That, or they should retcon dying in the home dimension being permanent to no longer be the case.

The Blood War predates Planescape...
and yeah the minion war is totally a bad expy of the Blood War, though with out any of the logic or logistics or any of it...
...just the "hey that's cool, lets copy that"

Quite right. I had the right year, but the Planescape setting didn't come out until 1994 (that's what I get for not confirming my memory before I post). It was 1991's Monstrous Compendium Outer Planes Appendix that introduced it.

[Axelmania]

I would say the Palladium RPG predates 1991

I don't know if an all out WAR was explained but they certainly never liked one another. From my 1988 revised copy

Pg 101 (sworn to destroy 6) Devils and demons hate each other, and may pit the witch against rival devil or demon organizations and people.
Pg 154 Devils, note: hates and opposes any connection with the gods of light and demons
Pg 155 Demons, note: hates and opposes the gods of light and devils

Apparently some of them used to get along. I blame humanity...

Pg 178 The jinn are the children of lust and decadence, spawned by the coupling of demon and devil high lords long before the coming of mankind. They are evil mischievous creatures of magic .. Being immortal and spawn of both demon and devil, no weapon wrought by mortals can harm them.

[Greepnak]

I think going American Gods and getting assorted pantheons involved with Zeus, Brahma, and Odin walking the earth would make something happen. The book-originated Big Bads are generally predicated on the "Evil actually does stuff, good doesn't do anything unless it's to react to evil" problem where we have confused "good" with "Status quo, dont rock the boat" thanks to superhero stories and stuff.

I want Brahma and Splynncryth to throw down with techno wizard meteor cannons and stuff.

[boring7]

I think going American Gods and getting assorted pantheons involved with Zeus, Brahma, and Odin walking the earth would make something happen. The book-originated Big Bads are generally predicated on the "Evil actually does stuff, good doesn't do anything unless it's to react to evil" problem where we have confused "good" with "Status quo, dont rock the boat" thanks to superhero stories and stuff.

I want Brahma and Splynncryth to throw down with techno wizard meteor cannons and stuff.

It's a side-effect of the writer's intentions. Rumor is Kevin Siembieda openly stated (at some point in the last 30 years) he always wanted Rifts to be a murderhobo (sorry, "enthusiastic adventurer hero") endeavor, with any rules centered viewed from the perspective of how an adventuring party would interact with it. Prices are for buying and selling, not making. Techno-wizardry rules are EXPLICITLY "DM makes stuff up".

So empire-building by players is discouraged, and Kevin has a vested interest in the villains still being villains tomorrow, and so on.

Also a lot of them *are* around, but show up in one WB that isn't set in North America, so nothing ever happens with them after that. Isis has a cult dedicated to her growing in Madhaven...and that was the beginning and the end of that.