LoneStar USA-G10s

[SereneTsunami]

I know that Chi-town shuns the Glitterboy as a weapon, but is it safe to assume that when they found the LoneStar Complex that it was ready and able to produce USA-G10s?

I have read that the facility was capable of producing the USA SAMAS(Spirit West) from day one, but the USA-G10 is a whole other level of machine.

Thanks in advance for any help. I appreciate it.

[Jefffar]

Chi-Town shuns the Gliterboy in part because they are unable to make them. Free Quebec not sharing the production technology with the rest of the CS is one of the reasons for the conflict between them an Chi-Town.

I'd think that if Lone Star was able to produce Glitterboys, we'd see a CS Glitterboy rolled out, instead of a war with FQ.

[eliakon]

Since it says in many sources that FQ is the only known manufacturer of Glitter Boys in North America, and several of those sources post date Lone Star, coupled with the fact that the factory is said to be able to produce SAMAS, but not said to produce GBs...
...I think it is pretty safe to say that, no it can not produce GBs.

[SereneTsunami]

Thanks for those thoughts. I thought the very same things myself, but 2 things give me pause.

1. Lonestar is supposed to be the "Big Kahuna" for the US armed forces. It doesn't quite track that they would not be able to make their premier weapon in such a facility.

2. As I understand it Chi-Town's reluctance to use Glitterboys in their armed forces was about cost of the unit(specifically the laser resistant armor) and concerns over placing that much power in one man's hands. They use this last rational for other choices they make as to their armed forces make-up.

This is whats causing my indecision.

[glitterboy2098]

Lonestar had SAMAS production. it is likely very few sites had facilities for both. (the New Navy's secret bases likely can build both in small numbers, and ARCHIE can build both due mainly to extensive adaptable infrastructure.. SB1R implies ARCHIE was part of the continuity of government program so probably was set up to make a bit of everything)

[13eowulf]

is it safe to assume that when they found the LoneStar Complex that it was ready and able to produce USA-G10s?

The short answer is no, it is not safe to assume this.
Aside from it never being safe to assume anything, there are a number of reasons to not assume this.
As mentioned above, if they could, there would not have been an FQ war, part of the war being FQ wouldnt share with the CS the tech to make Glitterboys. If they already had the tech, they wouldnt have needed it shared.
As mentioned above Lone Star was only said to be able to produce SAMAS, and as GB mentioned it is doubtful most places could produce both.
The only known producer of glitterboys in North America is Free Quebec. The only unknown producers are ARCHIE and the Republicans (via ARCHIE). If the CS could make Glitterboys, it would have been noted by now.
Finally, there is the Shadow Boy, the black market has a Glitterboy assembly Line, but they cannot manufacture the actual Glitter Armour, which even if it was written somewhere that the CS got hold of an assembly line for Glitterboys they would not be able to manufacture the Glitter armour that they are famous for, and (apparently) is a requirement for the PA to handle the BoomGun (according to Black Market).

So it is not safe to assume that LoneStar can produce glitterboys, in any way.

[RockJock]

I agree with the no GB manufacturing facilities, but I wouldn't be surprised if some number of GBs were stored at Lonestar. I always went on the basis that Lonestar was more of an Air Force base anyway (several around west Texas) and thus the SAMAS facilities. Just my justification.

[glitterboy2098]

there has been a general trend with mention of GB production indicating that the secrets of building GB's are in the Chrome armor and the boomgun. technology that is apparently difficult to duplicate without pre-rifts plans.

it is likely that any factory able to make power armor could produce the main parts. the frame, the actuators, the electronics, etc. but not the armor or boomgun unless it has proprietary plans and formulas, and whatever specialized equipment is needed beyond the norm to use them. the boomgun would likely be easier to reverse engineer than the armor though.

the Shadowboy is a good example of that.. unable to make the chrome, they use the strongest regular armor they have instead. they can't build a full boomgun, but can build a less capable version using the same ammo. honestly i'm surprised it took us this long before the game got a non-chrome GB.

[Axelmania]

The mastadon bot with twin boomguns wasn't chrome.

[guardiandashi]

it may sound odd but my take on it is no lonestar can't build glitterboys but most of that is due to what lone star really was to NEMA/USA prior to the cataclysm. Lone star was apparently a "base" and genetic engineering facility. so them having some samas units and SAMAS repair facilities makes sense. they likely had "some" glitterboys on site but their repair may have been dependent on supplies brought in (and or the glitterboy manufacturing) wasn't present, because the facility wasn't fully operational.

the other issue is while lonestar can make the CS samas, and skelebots those units aren't the full spec USA units either IE the full spec SAMAS actually has chromium armor also and a more potent weapon than the railgun the CS uses on SAMAS

if you look at it the SAMAS is a "real USAF/ARMY" 'Ironman' suit. the glitterboy is more of a warmonger / M1 Abrams equivalent, IE its an army one man tank suit.

[SereneTsunami]

Thanks for all the replies. I think i found the relevant info on page 72 of WB#22. It doesn't explain why LoneStar can't manufacture USA-G10s, but it's pretty clear it cannot.

[ShadowLogan]

The mastadon bot with twin boomguns wasn't chrome.

??? Twin Boomguns??? on the Mastadon ???

The South America Mastadon 'bot (WB9 pg175-7) only mounts one boomgun in a turret, and due to its mass experiences negligible recoil. While the Mastadon is not chrome armored, South America (WB8) Glitterboy 7 (pg173-6) shows that manufacturing abilities still exist for GBs in SA, while said sites are not identified users are (so Codoba could produce BGs or trade for them as the necessary tech base is available).

[RockJock]

Isn't the SA Glittergirl also shiny?

[glitterboy2098]

the USA-G7 has chrome armor yes. though IMO, it is something of an enigma in that it is by designation an earlier model, yet is apparently more advanced in terms of weapons and design, and at the same time, is implied by the fluff to be the ones sent to SA that did the guada marta incident (which we know are actually USA-G10's)

[SereneTsunami]

WB#9pg.173 tells us that GB-7 designs were found 150 years ago, and production of GB-7 began about 50 years ago. Seems like Arequipa, Santiago, and Cordoba can make GB-7s and USA-G10s.

[Blue_Lion]

Thanks for those thoughts. I thought the very same things myself, but 2 things give me pause.

1. Lonestar is supposed to be the "Big Kahuna" for the US armed forces. It doesn't quite track that they would not be able to make their premier weapon in such a facility.

2. As I understand it Chi-Town's reluctance to use Glitterboys in their armed forces was about cost of the unit(specifically the laser resistant armor) and concerns over placing that much power in one man's hands. They use this last rational for other choices they make as to their armed forces make-up.

This is whats causing my indecision.

Lonestar was a Big kahuna of genetics and augmentation. The US military might place GBs there but limiting the places wiyh high end Mil tech secrete information reduces the chance of spys stealing all your secrets. You do not want them getting your GB specs and genetics augmentation in successful hack.

[SereneTsunami]

I have been rereading and it looks like even Quebec's manufacturing capabilities came from NEMA HQ and the Republicans. A trade deal between NGR and Quebec was the origin of the T-550. That leaves New Republic in Japan, and the KLM corp. in orbit and the 3 in South America i mentioned above as the only other Glitter-boy manufacturers. That is a very exclusive list.

[Zer0 Kay]

Thanks for those thoughts. I thought the very same things myself, but 2 things give me pause.

1. Lonestar is supposed to be the "Big Kahuna" for the US armed forces. It doesn't quite track that they would not be able to make their premier weapon in such a facility.

2. As I understand it Chi-Town's reluctance to use Glitterboys in their armed forces was about cost of the unit(specifically the laser resistant armor) and concerns over placing that much power in one man's hands. They use this last rational for other choices they make as to their armed forces make-up.

This is whats causing my indecision.

The Chromium Guardsmen is a NEMA design not a USDOD design. Just as the Silver Eagle is NEMA. The USDOD can't manufacture Silver Eagles only the non Chromium SAMAS variants. It was likely in the treaty with Mexico and Canada that Chromium Guardsmen and Silver Eagles could only be issued to NEMA so even the military who is funded enough to make the Ticonderoga didn't get any.

Bottom Line

1. USDOD could afford Chromium
2. The Chromium Units are available/issued only by NEMA
3. Lonestar not being a NEMA base wasn't authorized to manufacture and wasn't supplied with the necessary materials, templates or whatever.

[Zer0 Kay]

it may sound odd but my take on it is no lonestar can't build glitterboys but most of that is due to what lone star really was to NEMA/USA prior to the cataclysm. Lone star was apparently a "base" and genetic engineering facility. so them having some samas units and SAMAS repair facilities makes sense. they likely had "some" glitterboys on site but their repair may have been dependent on supplies brought in (and or the glitterboy manufacturing) wasn't present, because the facility wasn't fully operational.

the other issue is while lonestar can make the CS samas, and skelebots those units aren't the full spec USA units either IE the full spec SAMAS actually has chromium armor also and a more potent weapon than the railgun the CS uses on SAMAS

if you look at it the SAMAS is a "real USAF/ARMY" 'Ironman' suit. the glitterboy is more of a warmonger / M1 Abrams equivalent, IE its an army one man tank suit.

No. Silver Eagle has Chromium. Silver Eagle is NEMA. According to references for the black market wild weasel and the other variant are the DOD models.

[glitterboy2098]

The base model of SAMAS prerifts (seen in wb15) uses normal armor, a heavier railgun, and wing mini missile hard points.

[Zer0 Kay]

The mastadon bot with twin boomguns wasn't chrome.

??? Twin Boomguns??? on the Mastadon ???

The South America Mastadon 'bot (WB9 pg175-7) only mounts one boomgun in a turret, and due to its mass experiences negligible recoil. While the Mastadon is not chrome armored, South America (WB8) Glitterboy 7 (pg173-6) shows that manufacturing abilities still exist for GBs in SA, while said sites are not identified users are (so Codoba could produce BGs or trade for them as the necessary tech base is available).

I wish they did something like...
On the Pearl Harbor naval base there is a bunker hill with a LARGE opening facing the ocean. It is said that it was intended to be a casemate for costal artillery and was initially tested using one of the Arizona's turrets. The problem was the cement the turret was mounted in shattered when the guns fired. The engineers did not take into account that when the ship fired all of its guns the water absorbed the recoil so the Shockwave didn't damage the ship.

So the GB doesn't take damage because the thrusters take the recoil and keep it standing the pylons and hooks just keep it in place. But the Mammoth should take damage to the structure.

[Zer0 Kay]

The base model of SAMAS prerifts (seen in wb15) uses normal armor, a heavier railgun, and wing mini missile hard points.

Yup that'd be the book I was thinking of.

Now which came first the Silver Eagle, designed for NEMA and then the DOD wanted some, or the SAMAS, and NEMA upgraded it?

[ShadowLogan]

The mastadon bot with twin boomguns wasn't chrome.

??? Twin Boomguns??? on the Mastadon ???

The South America Mastadon 'bot (WB9 pg175-7) only mounts one boomgun in a turret, and due to its mass experiences negligible recoil. While the Mastadon is not chrome armored, South America (WB8) Glitterboy 7 (pg173-6) shows that manufacturing abilities still exist for GBs in SA, while said sites are not identified users are (so Codoba could produce BGs or trade for them as the necessary tech base is available).

I wish they did something like...
On the Pearl Harbor naval base there is a bunker hill with a LARGE opening facing the ocean. It is said that it was intended to be a casemate for costal artillery and was initially tested using one of the Arizona's turrets. The problem was the cement the turret was mounted in shattered when the guns fired. The engineers did not take into account that when the ship fired all of its guns the water absorbed the recoil so the Shockwave didn't damage the ship.

So the GB doesn't take damage because the thrusters take the recoil and keep it standing the pylons and hooks just keep it in place. But the Mammoth should take damage to the structure.

A few points:
1. Glitterboy has a mass of 1.2tons fully loaded, the Mastadon has a mass of 160tons fully loaded. The Mastadon has over 100x the fully loaded mass of a fully loaded Glitterboy. So in theory the Mastadon's mass should act in the same way the GB's thuster/pylon system does to manage recoil (which w/o the t/p system would toss the 1.2tonst 30ft back).
2. the Mastadon description of the turreted weapon: "holds a vehicle version of the the infamous 'boom gun' used by the Glitter Boy armor" (WB9pg177 #3). So technically it is using a variant of the RG-14 (probably minor changes, like replacing the manual trigger with remote firing, vehicle mounting, etc))
3. The Mastadon has been in service for 8 years (WB9pg175), presumably in development even longer. If there was a problem with recoil management it would have turned up by now and they wouldn't be looking to double the production rate

So basically I don't see why the Mastadon should take damage from firing the RG-14.

[Kelorin]

In the earlier World books, it seemed like anyone who had an example of a working Glitterboy / Chromium Gaurdsman was able to reverse engineer it, produce it and even construct local variants. South American nations were able to set up production of Glitterboys and RG-14s (for the aforementioned Mastodon) based on only having the examples sent down by US Military. Also, lets not forget Japan where they have their own variants of both the SAMAS and GB (although, as a US ally Japan may have been given design specs and been authorized to construct them, pre-Rifts).

As far as weight and recoil of the boomgun itself, as some one else mentioned the whole GB suit clocks in at about 1.2 tons. Never mind the Mastodon bot, I'm surprised no one has considered mounting into a recoilless turret on a 60+ ton MBT.

[SereneTsunami]

Thanks for those thoughts. I thought the very same things myself, but 2 things give me pause.

1. Lonestar is supposed to be the "Big Kahuna" for the US armed forces. It doesn't quite track that they would not be able to make their premier weapon in such a facility.

2. As I understand it Chi-Town's reluctance to use Glitterboys in their armed forces was about cost of the unit(specifically the laser resistant armor) and concerns over placing that much power in one man's hands. They use this last rational for other choices they make as to their armed forces make-up.

This is whats causing my indecision.

The Chromium Guardsmen is a NEMA design not a USDOD design. Just as the Silver Eagle is NEMA. The USDOD can't manufacture Silver Eagles only the non Chromium SAMAS variants. It was likely in the treaty with Mexico and Canada that Chromium Guardsmen and Silver Eagles could only be issued to NEMA so even the military who is funded enough to make the Ticonderoga didn't get any.

Bottom Line

1. USDOD could afford Chromium
2. The Chromium Units are available/issued only by NEMA
3. Lonestar not being a NEMA base wasn't authorized to manufacture and wasn't supplied with the necessary materials, templates or whatever.

The differences between the US SAMAS and the NEMA Silver Eagle is clear, but there is no difference I can see between the US-G10s and The NEMA Chromium Guardsman.

It is very plausable that NEMA had only one US-G10 factory, which ARCHIE now owns. The text is clear that Lonestar cannot make US-G10s, but it doesn't make alot of sense.

I still contend that Chi-Town has a cultural reason for not accepting Glitter Boys into their armed forces.

[RockJock]

A cultural reason like they are a remnant of the past representing independent heroes. The CS makes a point, even in the later PA period of saying the SAMAS was THEIR design, not a refurb of a Golden Age suit. That doesn't work for the GB, because they were always small numbers, and it is known to be a Golden Age item. Even if they could build a GB they wouldn't.

[Nightmask]

Thanks for those thoughts. I thought the very same things myself, but 2 things give me pause.

1. Lonestar is supposed to be the "Big Kahuna" for the US armed forces. It doesn't quite track that they would not be able to make their premier weapon in such a facility.

2. As I understand it Chi-Town's reluctance to use Glitterboys in their armed forces was about cost of the unit(specifically the laser resistant armor) and concerns over placing that much power in one man's hands. They use this last rational for other choices they make as to their armed forces make-up.

This is whats causing my indecision.

The Chromium Guardsmen is a NEMA design not a USDOD design. Just as the Silver Eagle is NEMA. The USDOD can't manufacture Silver Eagles only the non Chromium SAMAS variants. It was likely in the treaty with Mexico and Canada that Chromium Guardsmen and Silver Eagles could only be issued to NEMA so even the military who is funded enough to make the Ticonderoga didn't get any.

Bottom Line

1. USDOD could afford Chromium
2. The Chromium Units are available/issued only by NEMA
3. Lonestar not being a NEMA base wasn't authorized to manufacture and wasn't supplied with the necessary materials, templates or whatever.

The differences between the US SAMAS and the NEMA Silver Eagle is clear, but there is no difference I can see between the US-G10s and The NEMA Chromium Guardsman.

It is very plausable that NEMA had only one US-G10 factory, which ARCHIE now owns. The text is clear that Lonestar cannot make US-G10s, but it doesn't make alot of sense.

I still contend that Chi-Town has a cultural reason for not accepting Glitter Boys into their armed forces.

The reason it appears to not make a lot of sense to you is that you think that somehow they should have to be able to produce one if they can produce the other which just isn't sensible. They have little to nothing in common and even at the height of tech pre-Rifts outside of the experimental ARCHIE-3 facility factories aren't flexible, they can't be retooled on a whim to make whatever they feel like. They had the SAMAS-style facilities at Lonestar and that was it and zero reason to have the specs for making Glitter Boys.

You can also house rule however you like but by the books it's made clear that the CS does not and never has had the means to make Glitter Boys, which is what led to their conflict with Quebec because Quebec clearly did have the means and never shared it with them. They would destroy them whenever possible and focused on what they could manufacture and develop themselves.

[Zer0 Kay]

The mastadon bot with twin boomguns wasn't chrome.

??? Twin Boomguns??? on the Mastadon ???

The South America Mastadon 'bot (WB9 pg175-7) only mounts one boomgun in a turret, and due to its mass experiences negligible recoil. While the Mastadon is not chrome armored, South America (WB8) Glitterboy 7 (pg173-6) shows that manufacturing abilities still exist for GBs in SA, while said sites are not identified users are (so Codoba could produce BGs or trade for them as the necessary tech base is available).

I wish they did something like...
On the Pearl Harbor naval base there is a bunker hill with a LARGE opening facing the ocean. It is said that it was intended to be a casemate for costal artillery and was initially tested using one of the Arizona's turrets. The problem was the cement the turret was mounted in shattered when the guns fired. The engineers did not take into account that when the ship fired all of its guns the water absorbed the recoil so the Shockwave didn't damage the ship.

So the GB doesn't take damage because the thrusters take the recoil and keep it standing the pylons and hooks just keep it in place. But the Mammoth should take damage to the structure.

A few points:
1. Glitterboy has a mass of 1.2tons fully loaded, the Mastadon has a mass of 160tons fully loaded. The Mastadon has over 100x the fully loaded mass of a fully loaded Glitterboy. So in theory the Mastadon's mass should act in the same way the GB's thuster/pylon system does to manage recoil (which w/o the t/p system would toss the 1.2tonst 30ft back).
2. the Mastadon description of the turreted weapon: "holds a vehicle version of the the infamous 'boom gun' used by the Glitter Boy armor" (WB9pg177 #3). So technically it is using a variant of the RG-14 (probably minor changes, like replacing the manual trigger with remote firing, vehicle mounting, etc))
3. The Mastadon has been in service for 8 years (WB9pg175), presumably in development even longer. If there was a problem with recoil management it would have turned up by now and they wouldn't be looking to double the production rate

So basically I don't see why the Mastadon should take damage from firing the RG-14.

Same reason cement and a mountain takes damage from firing costal artillery when a Battleship does not. Instead of compensating for the force it takes the whole thing without shock absorbtion

[Zer0 Kay]

Thanks for those thoughts. I thought the very same things myself, but 2 things give me pause.

1. Lonestar is supposed to be the "Big Kahuna" for the US armed forces. It doesn't quite track that they would not be able to make their premier weapon in such a facility.

2. As I understand it Chi-Town's reluctance to use Glitterboys in their armed forces was about cost of the unit(specifically the laser resistant armor) and concerns over placing that much power in one man's hands. They use this last rational for other choices they make as to their armed forces make-up.

This is whats causing my indecision.

The Chromium Guardsmen is a NEMA design not a USDOD design. Just as the Silver Eagle is NEMA. The USDOD can't manufacture Silver Eagles only the non Chromium SAMAS variants. It was likely in the treaty with Mexico and Canada that Chromium Guardsmen and Silver Eagles could only be issued to NEMA so even the military who is funded enough to make the Ticonderoga didn't get any.

Bottom Line

1. USDOD could afford Chromium
2. The Chromium Units are available/issued only by NEMA
3. Lonestar not being a NEMA base wasn't authorized to manufacture and wasn't supplied with the necessary materials, templates or whatever.

The differences between the US SAMAS and the NEMA Silver Eagle is clear, but there is no difference I can see between the US-G10s and The NEMA Chromium Guardsman.

It is very plausable that NEMA had only one US-G10 factory, which ARCHIE now owns. The text is clear that Lonestar cannot make US-G10s, but it doesn't make alot of sense.

I still contend that Chi-Town has a cultural reason for not accepting Glitter Boys into their armed forces.

Why do you assume the US-G10 is a DVD model rather than a NEMA a signed model number or a manufacturer's model number?

[SereneTsunami]

Thanks for those thoughts. I thought the very same things myself, but 2 things give me pause.

1. Lonestar is supposed to be the "Big Kahuna" for the US armed forces. It doesn't quite track that they would not be able to make their premier weapon in such a facility.

2. As I understand it Chi-Town's reluctance to use Glitterboys in their armed forces was about cost of the unit(specifically the laser resistant armor) and concerns over placing that much power in one man's hands. They use this last rational for other choices they make as to their armed forces make-up.

This is whats causing my indecision.

The Chromium Guardsmen is a NEMA design not a USDOD design. Just as the Silver Eagle is NEMA. The USDOD can't manufacture Silver Eagles only the non Chromium SAMAS variants. It was likely in the treaty with Mexico and Canada that Chromium Guardsmen and Silver Eagles could only be issued to NEMA so even the military who is funded enough to make the Ticonderoga didn't get any.

Bottom Line

1. USDOD could afford Chromium
2. The Chromium Units are available/issued only by NEMA
3. Lonestar not being a NEMA base wasn't authorized to manufacture and wasn't supplied with the necessary materials, templates or whatever.

The differences between the US SAMAS and the NEMA Silver Eagle is clear, but there is no difference I can see between the US-G10s and The NEMA Chromium Guardsman.

It is very plausable that NEMA had only one US-G10 factory, which ARCHIE now owns. The text is clear that Lonestar cannot make US-G10s, but it doesn't make alot of sense.

I still contend that Chi-Town has a cultural reason for not accepting Glitter Boys into their armed forces.

Why do you assume the US-G10 is a DVD model rather than a NEMA a signed model number or a manufacturer's model number?

I guess my thinking is that "US-G10" is a designation given by the private contractor(KLS) and the US government. I'm assuming that the private/public weapon development process won't have changed much by the 2080's.

Is it in dispute that US-G10s are a USA/KLS creation?

[eliakon]

The mastadon bot with twin boomguns wasn't chrome.

??? Twin Boomguns??? on the Mastadon ???

The South America Mastadon 'bot (WB9 pg175-7) only mounts one boomgun in a turret, and due to its mass experiences negligible recoil. While the Mastadon is not chrome armored, South America (WB8) Glitterboy 7 (pg173-6) shows that manufacturing abilities still exist for GBs in SA, while said sites are not identified users are (so Codoba could produce BGs or trade for them as the necessary tech base is available).

I wish they did something like...
On the Pearl Harbor naval base there is a bunker hill with a LARGE opening facing the ocean. It is said that it was intended to be a casemate for costal artillery and was initially tested using one of the Arizona's turrets. The problem was the cement the turret was mounted in shattered when the guns fired. The engineers did not take into account that when the ship fired all of its guns the water absorbed the recoil so the Shockwave didn't damage the ship.

So the GB doesn't take damage because the thrusters take the recoil and keep it standing the pylons and hooks just keep it in place. But the Mammoth should take damage to the structure.

A few points:
1. Glitterboy has a mass of 1.2tons fully loaded, the Mastadon has a mass of 160tons fully loaded. The Mastadon has over 100x the fully loaded mass of a fully loaded Glitterboy. So in theory the Mastadon's mass should act in the same way the GB's thuster/pylon system does to manage recoil (which w/o the t/p system would toss the 1.2tonst 30ft back).
2. the Mastadon description of the turreted weapon: "holds a vehicle version of the the infamous 'boom gun' used by the Glitter Boy armor" (WB9pg177 #3). So technically it is using a variant of the RG-14 (probably minor changes, like replacing the manual trigger with remote firing, vehicle mounting, etc))
3. The Mastadon has been in service for 8 years (WB9pg175), presumably in development even longer. If there was a problem with recoil management it would have turned up by now and they wouldn't be looking to double the production rate

So basically I don't see why the Mastadon should take damage from firing the RG-14.

Same reason cement and a mountain takes damage from firing costal artillery when a Battleship does not. Instead of compensating for the force it takes the whole thing without shock absorbtion

What makes you think there isn't shock absorption?
Setting aside the fact that MDC materials are literally technological miracles...
...this is explicitly a vehicular turret mounted weapon.
That sort of sounds like "designed to take the shock" to me.
Especially since the recoil of the boomgun is more in line with that of an artillery piece, or ohhhh tankgun and not a 20inch battle ship gun. Apples to Apples and all that...

[SereneTsunami]

Thanks for those thoughts. I thought the very same things myself, but 2 things give me pause.

1. Lonestar is supposed to be the "Big Kahuna" for the US armed forces. It doesn't quite track that they would not be able to make their premier weapon in such a facility.

2. As I understand it Chi-Town's reluctance to use Glitterboys in their armed forces was about cost of the unit(specifically the laser resistant armor) and concerns over placing that much power in one man's hands. They use this last rational for other choices they make as to their armed forces make-up.

This is whats causing my indecision.

The Chromium Guardsmen is a NEMA design not a USDOD design. Just as the Silver Eagle is NEMA. The USDOD can't manufacture Silver Eagles only the non Chromium SAMAS variants. It was likely in the treaty with Mexico and Canada that Chromium Guardsmen and Silver Eagles could only be issued to NEMA so even the military who is funded enough to make the Ticonderoga didn't get any.

Bottom Line

1. USDOD could afford Chromium
2. The Chromium Units are available/issued only by NEMA
3. Lonestar not being a NEMA base wasn't authorized to manufacture and wasn't supplied with the necessary materials, templates or whatever.

The differences between the US SAMAS and the NEMA Silver Eagle is clear, but there is no difference I can see between the US-G10s and The NEMA Chromium Guardsman.

It is very plausable that NEMA had only one US-G10 factory, which ARCHIE now owns. The text is clear that Lonestar cannot make US-G10s, but it doesn't make alot of sense.

I still contend that Chi-Town has a cultural reason for not accepting Glitter Boys into their armed forces.

The reason it appears to not make a lot of sense to you is that you think that somehow they should have to be able to produce one if they can produce the other which just isn't sensible. They have little to nothing in common and even at the height of tech pre-Rifts outside of the experimental ARCHIE-3 facility factories aren't flexible, they can't be retooled on a whim to make whatever they feel like. They had the SAMAS-style facilities at Lonestar and that was it and zero reason to have the specs for making Glitter Boys.

You can also house rule however you like but by the books it's made clear that the CS does not and never has had the means to make Glitter Boys, which is what led to their conflict with Quebec because Quebec clearly did have the means and never shared it with them. They would destroy them whenever possible and focused on what they could manufacture and develop themselves.

I guess the reason it doesn't make alot of sense to me is that if there is zero reason for a US-G10 factory at LoneStar then there is zero reason for a US SAMAS factory at LoneStar. You say having one doesn't require or even intimate the other. I'm wondering why not have both? If LoneStar is such a important facility, why not make it complete?

I'm just speculating, but many in the US must have only agreed to NEMA if they were assured of a completely American led and operated military. I'm not saying it's impossible or unimaginable to build LoneStar without a US-G10 factory, but I'm having trouble seeing the logic.

I really don't see how giving Chi-Town the capacity to build US-G10s would have changed their minds about them anyway, they were against Glitter-Boys on principle once the Proseks took over.

[eliakon]

Thanks for those thoughts. I thought the very same things myself, but 2 things give me pause.

1. Lonestar is supposed to be the "Big Kahuna" for the US armed forces. It doesn't quite track that they would not be able to make their premier weapon in such a facility.

2. As I understand it Chi-Town's reluctance to use Glitterboys in their armed forces was about cost of the unit(specifically the laser resistant armor) and concerns over placing that much power in one man's hands. They use this last rational for other choices they make as to their armed forces make-up.

This is whats causing my indecision.

The Chromium Guardsmen is a NEMA design not a USDOD design. Just as the Silver Eagle is NEMA. The USDOD can't manufacture Silver Eagles only the non Chromium SAMAS variants. It was likely in the treaty with Mexico and Canada that Chromium Guardsmen and Silver Eagles could only be issued to NEMA so even the military who is funded enough to make the Ticonderoga didn't get any.

Bottom Line

1. USDOD could afford Chromium
2. The Chromium Units are available/issued only by NEMA
3. Lonestar not being a NEMA base wasn't authorized to manufacture and wasn't supplied with the necessary materials, templates or whatever.

The differences between the US SAMAS and the NEMA Silver Eagle is clear, but there is no difference I can see between the US-G10s and The NEMA Chromium Guardsman.

It is very plausable that NEMA had only one US-G10 factory, which ARCHIE now owns. The text is clear that Lonestar cannot make US-G10s, but it doesn't make alot of sense.

I still contend that Chi-Town has a cultural reason for not accepting Glitter Boys into their armed forces.

The reason it appears to not make a lot of sense to you is that you think that somehow they should have to be able to produce one if they can produce the other which just isn't sensible. They have little to nothing in common and even at the height of tech pre-Rifts outside of the experimental ARCHIE-3 facility factories aren't flexible, they can't be retooled on a whim to make whatever they feel like. They had the SAMAS-style facilities at Lonestar and that was it and zero reason to have the specs for making Glitter Boys.

You can also house rule however you like but by the books it's made clear that the CS does not and never has had the means to make Glitter Boys, which is what led to their conflict with Quebec because Quebec clearly did have the means and never shared it with them. They would destroy them whenever possible and focused on what they could manufacture and develop themselves.

I guess the reason it doesn't make alot of sense to me is that if there is zero reason for a US-G10 factory at LoneStar then there is zero reason for a US SAMAS factory at LoneStar. You say having one doesn't require or even intimate the other. I'm wondering why not have both? If LoneStar is such a important facility, why not make it complete?

Political boondoggle comes to mind.
The SAMAS factory at a genetics facility smacks of the sort of pork barrel project beloved of congressional delegations.

I'm just speculating, but many in the US must have only agreed to NEMA if they were assured of a completely American led and operated military. I'm not saying it's impossible or unimaginable to build LoneStar without a US-G10 factory, but I'm having trouble seeing the logic.

There are a couple issues here.
1) The first is that NEMA is, to be blunt, a retcon. And thus Lonestar was not written with NEMA in mind.
2) The second is the idea that LoneStar is, to be blunt, all that great. Its not the be all and end all of the Military. The US had several OTHER facilities besides Lonestar (Groom Lake, Aberdeen, Cheyanne Mountain, etc.). Lone Star (or the Tex AM) facility was great yes... but it was not the core of the US military industrial complex.
3) There is the minor issue that there are different companies involved. The manufacturer of the SAMAS and the Glitter Boy were different companies, so just because you have one of them doesn't mean you have the other (i.e. just because your plant makes Fords doesn't mean you make Hondas too...)

I really don't see how giving Chi-Town the capacity to build US-G10s would have changed their minds about them anyway, they were against Glitter-Boys on principle once the Proseks took over.

They were against them because they couldn't make them themselves though.
They wanted a uniform military after all.
If the CS could make Glitter Boys, that changes the equation radically as suddenly the FQ ability isn't unique.
ESPECIALLY since FQ was pretty cagey for decades as to if they even COULD make them...
...the idea that FQ was able to keep their ability to make new GBs secret for decades in the face of someone ELSE with the same tech is... well it boggles the imagination. I mean the entire premise that FQ used to hide its production was "but no one knows how to do this, and no factories remain, so we just use our cache of pre-rifts suits"
Which if Lonestar can make them... inverts the entire trope

<edit>
This all said, if it makes your personal game better to add a GB plant to Lone Star, then go for it. I just don't think your going to find any book support for making the claim that such a facility is canon... but that doesn't matter, just Rule Zero it to suit your game and move on. I can tell you that my games that Lone Star is rarely like it is portrayed in the book. I don't like some of those portrayals, and to be blunt I like to change stuff up so that my players are genuinely surprised by what is going on. (For example, in one game I might make Bradford a sane person who is actually dedicated to humanity... and appalled at the uses that the Proseks are putting his work to. In that game Bradford might be the leader of a shadowy underground linking to the Vangaurd through Psi-Bat that is seeking to stage a coup and over throw the Proseks 'for the sake of humanity'. In another game he might be just as written... but his work on artificially enhanced psychics have lead to the accidental creation of a new 'super psychic' that has gone rouge and needs to be dealt with.)

[Axelmania]

The mastadon bot with twin boomguns wasn't chrome.

??? Twin Boomguns??? on the Mastadon ???

The South America Mastadon 'bot (WB9 pg175-7) only mounts one boomgun in a turret, and due to its mass experiences negligible recoil. While the Mastadon is not chrome armored, South America (WB8) Glitterboy 7 (pg173-6) shows that manufacturing abilities still exist for GBs in SA, while said sites are not identified users are (so Codoba could produce BGs or trade for them as the necessary tech base is available).

Good memory, I remembered it had tusk guns and thought those were the boomguns but mixed them (lasers) up with the boomgun on top.

[ShadowLogan]

Same reason cement and a mountain takes damage from firing costal artillery when a Battleship does not. Instead of compensating for the force it takes the whole thing without shock absorbtion

Why do we assume that there isn't unstated shock absorption as part of the RG-14 design, or this specific vehicle variant? We are specifically told the recoil the 1.2 ton FL Glitterboy experiences would toss it 30ft without the pylon/thruster system (pick a G-10 entry RMB/RUE/etc). We are also specifically told "the recoil of the gun is negligible for this 160-ton vehicle" (WB9pg177).

That all seems to add up to the Mastadon having little need for the recoil compensation system of the GB suit because of its mass, since the recoil force is going to be the source of the shock. Don't forget that the unit can use its legs (by bending) as "built-in" shock absorbers where your cement & mountain can not.

I guess the reason it doesn't make alot of sense to me is that if there is zero reason for a US-G10 factory at LoneStar then there is zero reason for a US SAMAS factory at LoneStar. You say having one doesn't require or even intimate the other. I'm wondering why not have both? If LoneStar is such a important facility, why not make it complete?

How many US-G10 Factories did the US need? Production might be handled already at another location(s).

There is logic to not putting all the production and or research eggs at one site though.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Personally I been toying with adding USA-G10s to coalition arsenal, not glitterboys, but a coalition style version with a bunch of different shoulder mounted weapon systems.

[SereneTsunami]

<edit>
This all said, if it makes your personal game better to add a GB plant to Lone Star, then go for it. I just don't think your going to find any book support for making the claim that such a facility is canon... but that doesn't matter, just Rule Zero it to suit your game and move on. I can tell you that my games that Lone Star is rarely like it is portrayed in the book. I don't like some of those portrayals, and to be blunt I like to change stuff up so that my players are genuinely surprised by what is going on. (For example, in one game I might make Bradford a sane person who is actually dedicated to humanity... and appalled at the uses that the Proseks are putting his work to. In that game Bradford might be the leader of a shadowy underground linking to the Vangaurd through Psi-Bat that is seeking to stage a coup and over throw the Proseks 'for the sake of humanity'. In another game he might be just as written... but his work on artificially enhanced psychics have lead to the accidental creation of a new 'super psychic' that has gone rouge and needs to be dealt with.)



Great post, I appreciate it. I'm not really looking( or see a need) to have a GB factory in LoneStar, just thinking out loud.

Your idea of a different Bradford would have been very fun. I often think choices writers have made concerning The CS have been shunted down a "gotta make'em unstoppable evil superpower" road and it has left alot of cool ideas unexplored.

[Nightmask]

As a small note, for those arguing about the Boom gun on the Mastodon and recoil, if memory serves the main problem with mounting a Boom Gun into other vehicles isn't really so much the recoil as it is the shockwaves/vibrations generated by the Boom Gun. Only the Glitter Boy's engineering is up to handling that repeated exposure to those powerful vibrations, while other more massive vehicles can handle the recoil they can't handle the vibrations. Since the Mastodon was built to have those Boom Guns then presumably it was built to handle both the recoil and the vibrations rather than other vehicles that aren't engineered to handle it.

[wyrmraker]

To be entirely honest, I have never been comfortable with there being a robotics factory, much less a factory of any sort, in any American military installation. The supply lines alone would eat up massive amounts of security personnel, while the factory workers are another pain that the military would rather not have to deal with. A Cyberworks facility with manufacturing capabilities? Absolutely fine. Area 51 with a full SAMAS production line? Not seeing it in the slightest.

The way things are done currently is that the items are manufactured in their home company's facilities, and then shipped to their military destinations. Honestly, PB's method of dealing with this reeks of the old notion that the military has the best, cutting edge stuff.

[guardiandashi]

To be entirely honest, I have never been comfortable with there being a robotics factory, much less a factory of any sort, in any American military installation. The supply lines alone would eat up massive amounts of security personnel, while the factory workers are another pain that the military would rather not have to deal with. A Cyberworks facility with manufacturing capabilities? Absolutely fine. Area 51 with a full SAMAS production line? Not seeing it in the slightest.

The way things are done currently is that the items are manufactured in their home company's facilities, and then shipped to their military destinations. Honestly, PB's method of dealing with this reeks of the old notion that the military has the best, cutting edge stuff.

kind of this but when thinking about it I had another take on it.

99% of the manufacture of things like the glitter boy and samas WAS at dedicated facilities.

what places like area 51, and lone star had was actually maintenance, refit and modification gear that could do limited production, and the people who found them THOUGHT they were full up manufacturing facilities when they weren't.

If you go with that idea it actually makes more sense (to me)

Area 51 has long been a R&D and testing facility so having them playing around with and testing variant SAMAS load outs makes sense, also having some capability to build parts on site make a lot of sense then. but as it was say the area 51 or lone star facilities could only build 1 unit per month because of limits on supplies manufacturing etc. at the "real" SAMAS manufacturing facility they could churn out 20-100 units a day or week or month whatever because they were setup for mass production to actually equip the armed forces with these new units in a "reasonable" time frame. if you wanted to replace all the US's apache helicopters (for instance) with SAMAS it wouldn't make sense for the swap over to have to take 20-30 years as the new unit would be obsolete before you had even a tithe swapped out.

I look at the glitterboy in a similar fashion but it is more of a replacement for things like the Abrams main battle tank.

[Nox Equites]

As a small note, for those arguing about the Boom gun on the Mastodon and recoil, if memory serves the main problem with mounting a Boom Gun into other vehicles isn't really so much the recoil as it is the shockwaves/vibrations generated by the Boom Gun. Only the Glitter Boy's engineering is up to handling that repeated exposure to those powerful vibrations, while other more massive vehicles can handle the recoil they can't handle the vibrations. Since the Mastodon was built to have those Boom Guns then presumably it was built to handle both the recoil and the vibrations rather than other vehicles that aren't engineered to handle it.

I interpret it as more that the boom gun is punishing on anything in the same size class. A main battle tank could take the stresses, but why bother? It is too expensive to make boom guns in the first place. You can field several smaller powered armor for the cost of one glitter boy.

[Saitou Hajime]

Thanks for those thoughts. I thought the very same things myself, but 2 things give me pause.

1. Lonestar is supposed to be the "Big Kahuna" for the US armed forces. It doesn't quite track that they would not be able to make their premier weapon in such a facility.

2. As I understand it Chi-Town's reluctance to use Glitterboys in their armed forces was about cost of the unit(specifically the laser resistant armor) and concerns over placing that much power in one man's hands. They use this last rational for other choices they make as to their armed forces make-up.

This is whats causing my indecision.

The Chromium Guardsmen is a NEMA design not a USDOD design. Just as the Silver Eagle is NEMA. The USDOD can't manufacture Silver Eagles only the non Chromium SAMAS variants. It was likely in the treaty with Mexico and Canada that Chromium Guardsmen and Silver Eagles could only be issued to NEMA so even the military who is funded enough to make the Ticonderoga didn't get any.

Bottom Line

1. USDOD could afford Chromium
2. The Chromium Units are available/issued only by NEMA
3. Lonestar not being a NEMA base wasn't authorized to manufacture and wasn't supplied with the necessary materials, templates or whatever.

The differences between the US SAMAS and the NEMA Silver Eagle is clear, but there is no difference I can see between the US-G10s and The NEMA Chromium Guardsman.

It is very plausable that NEMA had only one US-G10 factory, which ARCHIE now owns. The text is clear that Lonestar cannot make US-G10s, but it doesn't make alot of sense.

I still contend that Chi-Town has a cultural reason for not accepting Glitter Boys into their armed forces.

The reason it appears to not make a lot of sense to you is that you think that somehow they should have to be able to produce one if they can produce the other which just isn't sensible. They have little to nothing in common and even at the height of tech pre-Rifts outside of the experimental ARCHIE-3 facility factories aren't flexible, they can't be retooled on a whim to make whatever they feel like. They had the SAMAS-style facilities at Lonestar and that was it and zero reason to have the specs for making Glitter Boys.

You can also house rule however you like but by the books it's made clear that the CS does not and never has had the means to make Glitter Boys, which is what led to their conflict with Quebec because Quebec clearly did have the means and never shared it with them. They would destroy them whenever possible and focused on what they could manufacture and develop themselves.

I guess the reason it doesn't make alot of sense to me is that if there is zero reason for a US-G10 factory at LoneStar then there is zero reason for a US SAMAS factory at LoneStar. You say having one doesn't require or even intimate the other. I'm wondering why not have both? If LoneStar is such a important facility, why not make it complete?

I'm just speculating, but many in the US must have only agreed to NEMA if they were assured of a completely American led and operated military. I'm not saying it's impossible or unimaginable to build LoneStar without a US-G10 factory, but I'm having trouble seeing the logic.

I really don't see how giving Chi-Town the capacity to build US-G10s would have changed their minds about them anyway, they were against Glitter-Boys on principle once the Proseks took over.

Does Ford make every car at one factory or even one city? there nothing saying that the Sammas and the Glitter Boy were made by the saem company further the Liking in RIFTS Japan may indicate a Japanese company my have designed it. Further Branch service may play a part as well. We can see that in the currently as the Air force doesn't want to give up control of the A-10 because they know the Army would pick it up. Sammas might be a Air Force power armour, in that time.

[kaid]

I have been rereading and it looks like even Quebec's manufacturing capabilities came from NEMA HQ and the Republicans. A trade deal between NGR and Quebec was the origin of the T-550. That leaves New Republic in Japan, and the KLM corp. in orbit and the 3 in South America i mentioned above as the only other Glitter-boy manufacturers. That is a very exclusive list.

Actually in the free quebec book I am almost positive that they got their ability from finding a mostly intact production facility that they have expanded over the years as they have learned enough about the process to replicate it. It is possible republicans pointed them in the right direction to find it however.

[Nightmask]

I have been rereading and it looks like even Quebec's manufacturing capabilities came from NEMA HQ and the Republicans. A trade deal between NGR and Quebec was the origin of the T-550. That leaves New Republic in Japan, and the KLM corp. in orbit and the 3 in South America i mentioned above as the only other Glitter-boy manufacturers. That is a very exclusive list.

Actually in the free quebec book I am almost positive that they got their ability from finding a mostly intact production facility that they have expanded over the years as they have learned enough about the process to replicate it. It is possible republicans pointed them in the right direction to find it however.

Yes they found a factory, it's in their main city under the highest level of security that they could manage. They eventually managed to reverse-engineer it and create a smaller copy of it elsewhere but that's also under super-heavy security. Glitter Boy tech is far too important in their military for them to risk anyone else learning how to copy it.

[Zer0 Kay]

Same reason cement and a mountain takes damage from firing costal artillery when a Battleship does not. Instead of compensating for the force it takes the whole thing without shock absorbtion

Why do we assume that there isn't unstated shock absorption as part of the RG-14 design, or this specific vehicle variant? We are specifically told the recoil the 1.2 ton FL Glitterboy experiences would toss it 30ft without the pylon/thruster system (pick a G-10 entry RMB/RUE/etc). We are also specifically told "the recoil of the gun is negligible for this 160-ton vehicle" (WB9pg177).

That all seems to add up to the Mastadon having little need for the recoil compensation system of the GB suit because of its mass, since the recoil force is going to be the source of the shock. Don't forget that the unit can use its legs (by bending) as "built-in" shock absorbers where your cement & mountain can not.

I guess the reason it doesn't make alot of sense to me is that if there is zero reason for a US-G10 factory at LoneStar then there is zero reason for a US SAMAS factory at LoneStar. You say having one doesn't require or even intimate the other. I'm wondering why not have both? If LoneStar is such a important facility, why not make it complete?

How many US-G10 Factories did the US need? Production might be handled already at another location(s).

There is logic to not putting all the production and or research eggs at one site though.

We're onto assume anything especially that any.PB writer has a knowledge base to be talking about whatever they're talking about.
A line that says it is negligible for its size doesn't infer it has shock absorption. So there is a space where you can run it the way I think we all do and space for someone who wants to mess with their players could.

[Zer0 Kay]

The Chromium Guardsmen is a NEMA design not a USDOD design. Just as the Silver Eagle is NEMA. The USDOD can't manufacture Silver Eagles only the non Chromium SAMAS variants. It was likely in the treaty with Mexico and Canada that Chromium Guardsmen and Silver Eagles could only be issued to NEMA so even the military who is funded enough to make the Ticonderoga didn't get any.

Bottom Line

1. USDOD could afford Chromium
2. The Chromium Units are available/issued only by NEMA
3. Lonestar not being a NEMA base wasn't authorized to manufacture and wasn't supplied with the necessary materials, templates or whatever.

The differences between the US SAMAS and the NEMA Silver Eagle is clear, but there is no difference I can see between the US-G10s and The NEMA Chromium Guardsman.

It is very plausable that NEMA had only one US-G10 factory, which ARCHIE now owns. The text is clear that Lonestar cannot make US-G10s, but it doesn't make alot of sense.

I still contend that Chi-Town has a cultural reason for not accepting Glitter Boys into their armed forces.

The reason it appears to not make a lot of sense to you is that you think that somehow they should have to be able to produce one if they can produce the other which just isn't sensible. They have little to nothing in common and even at the height of tech pre-Rifts outside of the experimental ARCHIE-3 facility factories aren't flexible, they can't be retooled on a whim to make whatever they feel like. They had the SAMAS-style facilities at Lonestar and that was it and zero reason to have the specs for making Glitter Boys.

You can also house rule however you like but by the books it's made clear that the CS does not and never has had the means to make Glitter Boys, which is what led to their conflict with Quebec because Quebec clearly did have the means and never shared it with them. They would destroy them whenever possible and focused on what they could manufacture and develop themselves.

I guess the reason it doesn't make alot of sense to me is that if there is zero reason for a US-G10 factory at LoneStar then there is zero reason for a US SAMAS factory at LoneStar. You say having one doesn't require or even intimate the other. I'm wondering why not have both? If LoneStar is such a important facility, why not make it complete?

I'm just speculating, but many in the US must have only agreed to NEMA if they were assured of a completely American led and operated military. I'm not saying it's impossible or unimaginable to build LoneStar without a US-G10 factory, but I'm having trouble seeing the logic.

I really don't see how giving Chi-Town the capacity to build US-G10s would have changed their minds about them anyway, they were against Glitter-Boys on principle once the Proseks took over.

Does Ford make every car at one factory or even one city? there nothing saying that the Sammas and the Glitter Boy were made by the saem company further the Liking in RIFTS Japan may indicate a Japanese company my have designed it. Further Branch service may play a part as well. We can see that in the currently as the Air force doesn't want to give up control of the A-10 because they know the Army would pick it up. Sammas might be a Air Force power armour, in that time.

1. Chromium Guardsmen and Silver Eagles are likely built in different locations to minimise damage to infrastructure.
2. Presence of SAMAS and not silver Eagle manufacturing capabilities makes me think that Lonestar is not NEMA but some DARPA site. Anyone have a source saying who it belonged to?
3. If it was an actual military base then I'LL it would be more likely that it is a target manufacturing line. It would be unlikely that a co.pa y would give the capability to the military to just make as much as they want, where is the profit in that? It'd be like suggesting M1A1's and A10's get manufactured on bases.

[SereneTsunami]

page 16 of WB#13 Lone Star says that the base was built by The US.

The same page also reveals that it came with a massive amount of data on the US military and their weapons.


WB#22 Free Quebec page 72 says that the original GB factory found by FQ nearly 200 years ago was south of the current capital. It says it took 120 years to duplicate a small production line under the city of Free Quebec itself. The origin of the original FQ factory was not clear, US or possibly NEMA.

The Revised Sourcebook 1 says that Republicans helped Free Quebec to find the original GB factory.

WB#8 Japan page 136 states that ArmaTech was given GB tech to design improvements and variants, presumably by the KLS corp.

[Zer0 Kay]

So then Lonestar is US DARPA or DOD and the GB factory was likely a KLS plant rather than a NEMA base. So now is the SAMAS a KLS design or an ArmaTech design sold to NEMA then the U.S.?

[SereneTsunami]

So then Lonestar is US DARPA or DOD and the GB factory was likely a KLS plant rather than a NEMA base. So now is the SAMAS a KLS design or an ArmaTech design sold to NEMA then the U.S.?

The SAMAS's origins are even less clear then US-G10s. WB#8p132 says SAMAS was developed by "Old America Empire".

[Zer0 Kay]

So then Lonestar is US DARPA or DOD and the GB factory was likely a KLS plant rather than a NEMA base. So now is the SAMAS a KLS design or an ArmaTech design sold to NEMA then the U.S.?

The SAMAS's origins are even less clear then US-G10s. WB#8p132 says SAMAS was developed by "Old America Empire".

How is the G10s Origin unclear KLS corp manufactured them and had the japanese help them develop them.

The SAMAS on the otherhand seems to have originated in a factory that was near ChiTown but tested at Groom Lake and further developed in Japan with assembly or manufacturing at all sights with the largest facilities near ChiTown.