Shapeshifting and Wings

[13eowulf]

There are a few Shapeshifting abilities out there. The two that come to mind are the Shapechanger Major Power and the Changeling Race.

There are a number of 'Wing' powers and abilities. There is, of course, Winged Flight, as well as Mega Wings, wings gained through Eugenics, Angel and Demon Wings gained through Heroes of the Megaverse, and others.

Often Wing powers specify a certain style of wing. Most commonly Feather, Leather, and Insect. And depending on style/type of wing some stats (mostly SDC of the wings, and flight speed, most commonly listed in mph).

IF you are a shapshifter who has wings can your shape-shifting ability be used to change the visual style of the wing, provided SDC, MPH, etc. remain unchanged? Or would you argue that the SDC & MPH will change? Or is it impossible to apply your shapeshifting ability to your wings?
And what are your reasonings?

[Alrik Vas]

Without reading the actual Shapeshifting powers, I'd have to say you could probably shapechange to hide your wings (changing into a form familiar enough to you in that case) but of course you would lose the power of flight in this case. That being said, if you assumed the form of another person, and they don't have wings...I would think the result would be the same. Just like if you turned into a bear or a fish. Bears don't have wings (thank the heavens...), so if you morphed into one, you'd lose the flappers.

[Stone Gargoyle]

One interpretation is that Shapeshifting generally does not grant powers, so changing to something with wings would not grant you the ability to fly, nor would you gain working gills or fins to swim by turning into a fish. In general, shapeshifting allows you to change appearance, so you could change the appearance of your wings, and they would blend into whatever form you took, so you could use them in another form but it would give you away as not being what you are acting as.
Another interpretation is that you can use Shapeshifting to mimic powers by creating new body parts. This does not work well in a game because it makes you pretty much able to gain hundreds of abilities, albeit temporarily.
I generally go with the first interpretation, as it limits the power in what you can do with it.

[Damian Magecraft]

One interpretation is that Shapeshifting generally does not grant powers, so changing to something with wings would not grant you the ability to fly, nor would you gain working gills or fins to swim by turning into a fish. In general, shapeshifting allows you to change appearance, so you could change the appearance of your wings, and they would blend into whatever form you took, so you could use them in another form but it would give you away as not being what you are acting as.
Another interpretation is that you can use Shapeshifting to mimic powers by creating new body parts. This does not work well in a game because it makes you pretty much able to gain hundreds of abilities, albeit temporarily.
I generally go with the first interpretation, as it limits the power in what you can do with it.

However makeshift plus mimic...

[Daniel Stoker]

There are a few Shapeshifting abilities out there. The two that come to mind are the Shapechanger Major Power and the Changeling Race.

There are a number of 'Wing' powers and abilities. There is, of course, Winged Flight, as well as Mega Wings, wings gained through Eugenics, Angel and Demon Wings gained through Heroes of the Megaverse, and others.

Often Wing powers specify a certain style of wing. Most commonly Feather, Leather, and Insect. And depending on style/type of wing some stats (mostly SDC of the wings, and flight speed, most commonly listed in mph).

IF you are a shapshifter who has wings can your shape-shifting ability be used to change the visual style of the wing, provided SDC, MPH, etc. remain unchanged? Or would you argue that the SDC & MPH will change? Or is it impossible to apply your shapeshifting ability to your wings?
And what are your reasonings?

I don't see why not at all. You're not changing any of the stats of the wings and the power let's you grow feathers, fur, leather skin etc, there's no reason it wouldn't change your wings as well. Granted I personally used it to hide wings, but that's not necessarily kosher with a by the book reading.


Daniel Stoker

[Iczer]

One interpretation is that Shapeshifting generally does not grant powers, so changing to something with wings would not grant you the ability to fly, nor would you gain working gills or fins to swim by turning into a fish. In general, shapeshifting allows you to change appearance, so you could change the appearance of your wings, and they would blend into whatever form you took, so you could use them in another form but it would give you away as not being what you are acting as.
Another interpretation is that you can use Shapeshifting to mimic powers by creating new body parts. This does not work well in a game because it makes you pretty much able to gain hundreds of abilities, albeit temporarily.
I generally go with the first interpretation, as it limits the power in what you can do with it.

I respectfully disagree. this is a major power, and it is fairly limp as written, and certainly worse if you take that interpretation. I am quite fine allowing a shapeshifter to mimic most effects observable in a natural creature, subjected obviously to GM/common sense. If a shapeshifter wanted to form his arms into wings, sure I'll give him some semblance of flight. I would consider a flight speed of 2-4 times his normal Spd score (or his PS score) to be reasonable. They would have to be formed from his arms, and he had better flap them, but I would let him.

It's a major power. Most people only get one.

Batts

[Daniel Stoker]

I'll let them get away with more 'passive' things like Fur keeping your warm or helping you camouflage or scales making it harder to get hurt to a degree, or even webbed hands to swim better, but while I'll let them grow wings flying with them beyond simple flying squirrel flying seems a bit much to me.


Daniel Stoker

[Stone Gargoyle]

One interpretation is that Shapeshifting generally does not grant powers, so changing to something with wings would not grant you the ability to fly, nor would you gain working gills or fins to swim by turning into a fish. In general, shapeshifting allows you to change appearance, so you could change the appearance of your wings, and they would blend into whatever form you took, so you could use them in another form but it would give you away as not being what you are acting as.
Another interpretation is that you can use Shapeshifting to mimic powers by creating new body parts. This does not work well in a game because it makes you pretty much able to gain hundreds of abilities, albeit temporarily.
I generally go with the first interpretation, as it limits the power in what you can do with it.

I respectfully disagree. this is a major power, and it is fairly limp as written, and certainly worse if you take that interpretation. I am quite fine allowing a shapeshifter to mimic most effects observable in a natural creature, subjected obviously to GM/common sense. If a shapeshifter wanted to form his arms into wings, sure I'll give him some semblance of flight. I would consider a flight speed of 2-4 times his normal Spd score (or his PS score) to be reasonable. They would have to be formed from his arms, and he had better flap them, but I would let him.

It's a major power. Most people only get one.

Batts

Without limits, it is basically an ultramimic power with which you can do anything and everything because you just will yourself into a different form, equating to several majors, not just one. It by definition is too powerful, hence a need to limit it.

[Iczer]

One interpretation is that Shapeshifting generally does not grant powers, so changing to something with wings would not grant you the ability to fly, nor would you gain working gills or fins to swim by turning into a fish. In general, shapeshifting allows you to change appearance, so you could change the appearance of your wings, and they would blend into whatever form you took, so you could use them in another form but it would give you away as not being what you are acting as.
Another interpretation is that you can use Shapeshifting to mimic powers by creating new body parts. This does not work well in a game because it makes you pretty much able to gain hundreds of abilities, albeit temporarily.
I generally go with the first interpretation, as it limits the power in what you can do with it.

I respectfully disagree. this is a major power, and it is fairly limp as written, and certainly worse if you take that interpretation. I am quite fine allowing a shapeshifter to mimic most effects observable in a natural creature, subjected obviously to GM/common sense. If a shapeshifter wanted to form his arms into wings, sure I'll give him some semblance of flight. I would consider a flight speed of 2-4 times his normal Spd score (or his PS score) to be reasonable. They would have to be formed from his arms, and he had better flap them, but I would let him.

It's a major power. Most people only get one.

Batts

Without limits, it is basically an ultramimic power with which you can do anything and everything because you just will yourself into a different form, equating to several majors, not just one. It by definition is too powerful, hence a need to limit it.

and with the limits i keep seeing, it's basically a minor power

Batts

[Daniel Stoker]

No the Alter Facial Features or whatever the one power is seems like a minor. This one is a major, just not APS Plasma Major with how it works. Being able to make fully functional wings etc seems a bit much.. spikes and claws, go for it, those are simple enough. Hiding wings, that's a GM call but as I said earlier I tend to allow that as well. Growing a tail? That'd work too, but trying to make it prehensile or grow working arms? Again I'd have to say no.


Daniel Stoker

[13eowulf]

I thank everyone for your input.

To clarify I was asking about modifying the appearance of Wings already present. So if a Hero had Shapechanging and Mega Wings could he change Mega-Wings to look like leather or feather?

Of if he had Winged FLight - Feather could he change them to Insect Wings, etc.

I hadnt even thought about Shapechanging providing wings. There has been much on that. I will have to give that some thought.

[Daniel Stoker]

I thought I said so before, but yes that shouldn't be an issue at all and should be easily within the powerset as that doesn't actually have any changes on the power.


Daniel stoker

[Stone Gargoyle]

I thank everyone for your input.

To clarify I was asking about modifying the appearance of Wings already present. So if a Hero had Shapechanging and Mega Wings could he change Mega-Wings to look like leather or feather?

Of if he had Winged FLight - Feather could he change them to Insect Wings, etc.

I hadnt even thought about Shapechanging providing wings. There has been much on that. I will have to give that some thought.

Changing the appearance of the wings would be easy enough. I am sorry I went off the original topic to expand it to include other issues, but I thought that this was as good a place as any to open it up for discussion.

[13eowulf]

I thank everyone for your input.

To clarify I was asking about modifying the appearance of Wings already present. So if a Hero had Shapechanging and Mega Wings could he change Mega-Wings to look like leather or feather?

Of if he had Winged FLight - Feather could he change them to Insect Wings, etc.

I hadnt even thought about Shapechanging providing wings. There has been much on that. I will have to give that some thought.

Changing the appearance of the wings would be easy enough. I am sorry I went off the original topic to expand it to include other issues, but I thought that this was as good a place as any to open it up for discussion.

It was, and I encourage it, and the original question was answered beyond my satisfaction.

To that end, the Changeling Metamorph from Rifter 10? I think has rules that I think could be adapted to the Shapeshifting super power for creating wings where there were none before.

Turning the arms into wings, rather then a new limb. As I thought new Limbs were explicitly denied under the supoer powers.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I thank everyone for your input.

To clarify I was asking about modifying the appearance of Wings already present. So if a Hero had Shapechanging and Mega Wings could he change Mega-Wings to look like leather or feather?

Of if he had Winged FLight - Feather could he change them to Insect Wings, etc.

I hadnt even thought about Shapechanging providing wings. There has been much on that. I will have to give that some thought.

Changing the appearance of the wings would be easy enough. I am sorry I went off the original topic to expand it to include other issues, but I thought that this was as good a place as any to open it up for discussion.

It was, and I encourage it, and the original question was answered beyond my satisfaction.

To that end, the Changeling Metamorph from Rifter 10? I think has rules that I think could be adapted to the Shapeshifting super power for creating wings where there were none before.

Turning the arms into wings, rather then a new limb. As I thought new Limbs were explicitly denied under the supoer powers.

I would have to look it up in the book to be sure, but generally I think you have limits on what you can do with the power in that regard. If not, it would be up to individual GMs on how they wish the power to work. I just know though that someone will want to use the power to shapeshift into something combining abilities of several major powers and argue that it is allowed under this one power because you can shapeshift into anything.

[13eowulf]

I thank everyone for your input.

To clarify I was asking about modifying the appearance of Wings already present. So if a Hero had Shapechanging and Mega Wings could he change Mega-Wings to look like leather or feather?

Of if he had Winged FLight - Feather could he change them to Insect Wings, etc.

I hadnt even thought about Shapechanging providing wings. There has been much on that. I will have to give that some thought.

Changing the appearance of the wings would be easy enough. I am sorry I went off the original topic to expand it to include other issues, but I thought that this was as good a place as any to open it up for discussion.

It was, and I encourage it, and the original question was answered beyond my satisfaction.

To that end, the Changeling Metamorph from Rifter 10? I think has rules that I think could be adapted to the Shapeshifting super power for creating wings where there were none before.

Turning the arms into wings, rather then a new limb. As I thought new Limbs were explicitly denied under the supoer powers.

I would have to look it up in the book to be sure, but generally I think you have limits on what you can do with the power in that regard. If not, it would be up to individual GMs on how they wish the power to work. I just know though that someone will want to use the power to shapeshift into something combining abilities of several major powers and argue that it is allowed under this one power because you can shapeshift into anything.

Yeah, there is always 'That Guy™'.

[Slight001]

Iirc there is a Q and A section in the gmg that talks about combining powers. In order for the shape shift power to grant functional wings you also need the mimic power.

[Iczer]

I would have to look it up in the book to be sure, but generally I think you have limits on what you can do with the power in that regard. If not, it would be up to individual GMs on how they wish the power to work. I just know though that someone will want to use the power to shapeshift into something combining abilities of several major powers and argue that it is allowed under this one power because you can shapeshift into anything.

I cannot think of a major ability that could be mimicked with shapeshifter, much less several

Batts

[Stone Gargoyle]

I would have to look it up in the book to be sure, but generally I think you have limits on what you can do with the power in that regard. If not, it would be up to individual GMs on how they wish the power to work. I just know though that someone will want to use the power to shapeshift into something combining abilities of several major powers and argue that it is allowed under this one power because you can shapeshift into anything.

I cannot think of a major ability that could be mimicked with shapeshifter, much less several

Batts

All of the Animal Abilities powers could be gained with Shapechange powers. Depending on the way you interpret shapshifting, the organs of the body could be altered to mimic any of the animal senses and abilities which include breathing in water and flight. And that is just one example I can give.

[Iczer]

I would have to look it up in the book to be sure, but generally I think you have limits on what you can do with the power in that regard. If not, it would be up to individual GMs on how they wish the power to work. I just know though that someone will want to use the power to shapeshift into something combining abilities of several major powers and argue that it is allowed under this one power because you can shapeshift into anything.

I cannot think of a major ability that could be mimicked with shapeshifter, much less several

Batts

All of the Animal Abilities powers could be gained with Shapechange powers. Depending on the way you interpret shapshifting, the organs of the body could be altered to mimic any of the animal senses and abilities which include breathing in water and flight. And that is just one example I can give.

I'm pretty sure you can't really change your attributes overmuch, and I'm certain that you wouldn't gain the dubious animal control aspects of animal abilities. That leaves a handful of non game breaking senses and an occasional speed boost. Hardly overpowered. I wouldn't have a problem with the character growing gills and webbed hands. I'll even give him +15% to swim for that. He wouldn't be getting any other abilities out of that change. If he wants to form wings out of his existing arms, sure I'll let him glide. If he wants to fly he's going to have to sort that out with physics. perhaps lowing his body mass as well, or his relative body mass to surface area.

These little things are not game breakers. They are just little bags of tricks. Shapechangers are like swiss army knives. they can do a lot of things but they don't really make up for not having the right tool.

Batts