How would topple the Coalition?

[Icefalcon]

I don't think that Coalition could ever be fully gotten rid of. They can be drastically reduced but completely wiped out short of a full Splugorth invasion.

[Lt Gargoyle]

well if you and the other gms want the Coalition wiped out your gonna be able to do it in your games. I like them being villians.

[cornholioprime]

So me and a group of fellow GM's were having a spirted debate on how we would run a game where the sole objective was to topple the Coalition. After a couple of beers, we were some what flabbergasted and I decided that I will go to the Rifts community to shed some light. Now before we get started I wanted to lay down some ground rules.

Firstly I'd like to define "topple the Coalition". By topple we mean to either eliminate, significantly reduce there presence, or reduce their credibility as a significant threat.

Nextly - we have a couple of rules.
1. It has to be a strategy that could feasibly be enacted by a group of players (1-10 PC's)
2. Your limited to OCC's that are plausibly available to North America. They may not be native, but must be plausibly available.
3. No meta-classes (You can't just send in 10 cosmo knights to kill Prosek)

So how would you do it? What would your plan or overall strategy be. Who and what would you need to do it?

With only such a small band of players?

Nothing short of teleporting (and smuggling) their own City-Killer nukes into each city somehow, and then detonating them simultaneously.

That, or perhaps trying to set up multiple, permanent rifts into their cities through which you somehow manage to get large (HUGE) numbers of Xiticix or Mechanoids to pour through.

There is far too much "infrastructure" set up and in place in the Coalition States to assume that just assassinating a few or even multiple people in the CS Hierarchy is going to stop anything.


You ever hear the old saw about how, once Hitler and his party got to power, even assassinating him after that point probably wouldn't have stopped what happened?

[Giant2005]

Good old fashioned Warlock terrorism.

[Premier]

Official material based:
I would agree with smuggling some suicidal Shifters into the CS compounds and then opening up massive rifts that could pour forth massive numbers of Xiticix would be a good way to stifle a lot of CS activity.

Non official material:
I would suggest taking a peak at Rifter#44 and reviewing Quiserraica and the Voracious Absorbers. Smuggling enough of these apex predators into the CS compounds is sure to be equivalent to being weapons of mass destruction.

[Lt Gargoyle]

I am not sure which would be worse the coalition or the Xiticix. Once you give the Xiticix that much more space and have spread them out over such a vast distance, i think you would be done with north america. and even lord Slynn would have to take some serious action if he did not want to lose atlantis.

[mobuttu]

Convert the PC to Vampires and spread the vampirism through coalition.

[mobuttu]

Gain control of the Coalition's Ohio Class Nuclear Attack Submarine and launch all of it's missiles, or launch them through a rift so they can't be intercepted. Alternative:fire them at Atlantis and watch the retaliation.

Wow! I like this one!!

Those are a few off the top of my head.

Man, you are evil

[Mercdog]

Simply put, I wouldn't topple the CS. The stability of their power structure is, IMO, necessary to the lands of NA. That said, I'd be all for some strategic assassinations in the upper echelons of power to ensure that more even-handed and rational leaders could rise to prominence.

[The Beast]

Simply put, I wouldn't topple the CS. The stability of their power structure is, IMO, necessary to the lands of NA. That said, I'd be all for some strategic assassinations in the upper echelons of power to ensure that more even-handed and rational leaders could rise to prominence.

Combine that with changing the hearts & minds of the people of the CS will be the only real option that'll work in the long run.

[Godogma]

Well, if the CS wasn't protected by the hand of God (aka Kevin) many of the high end generals of the Coalition States and both Proseks would already be laboring under the Death Curse. Which would in effect severely curtail their effectiveness over time as they would have quite a few penalties to the rolls that are necessary to run their intelligence and other networks. Add in the fact that the nightmares would ensure they wouldn't be able to get a night of restful sleep and there's lots of bad stuff coming their way as far as actually being functional goes much less performing any tasks truly well. See p104-105 of the Book of Magic for the full description of Death Curse.

No way to get rid of it except a friendly and powerful god... and they only have a 21% chance of being able to remove it.

After Tolkeen with as many magic users the Coalition slaughtered they're probably laboring under more than one instance of the Death Curse each to boot!

Without those generals and the cult of Prosek running the place it won't take long before infighting starts taking its own toll amongst the upper echelon that's left and the Coalition is overall much less of a threat.

And that's discounting the Teleportation: Superior after scrying the enemy and teleporting in bombs and critters thing which would have happened long before the fall of Tolkeen in the first place were it not for the Word of Siembieda that is protecting the Coalition States as well as Blight which would be starving them.

[Godogma]

Well, if the CS wasn't protected by the hand of God (aka Kevin) many of the high end generals of the Coalition States and both Proseks would already be laboring under the Death Curse. Which would in effect severely curtail their effectiveness over time as they would have quite a few penalties to the rolls that are necessary to run their intelligence and other networks. Add in the fact that the nightmares would ensure they wouldn't be able to get a night of restful sleep and there's lots of bad stuff coming their way as far as actually being functional goes much less performing any tasks truly well. See p104-105 of the Book of Magic for the full description of Death Curse.

No way to get rid of it except a friendly and powerful god... and they only have a 21% chance of being able to remove it.

After Tolkeen with as many magic users the Coalition slaughtered they're probably laboring under more than one instance of the Death Curse each to boot!

Without those generals and the cult of Prosek running the place it won't take long before infighting starts taking its own toll amongst the upper echelon that's left and the Coalition is overall much less of a threat.

And that's discounting the Teleportation: Superior after scrying the enemy and teleporting in bombs and critters thing which would have happened long before the fall of Tolkeen in the first place were it not for the Word of Siembieda that is protecting the Coalition States as well as Blight which would be starving them.

Yeah, between the MB, Federation of Magic and Siege of Tolkeen books, it's hard to see how Chi-Town came out unscathed. However your Death Curse has a problem, it affects those who killed the person, or sometimes someone who hired the assassin. I doubt the Proseks have ever directly killed anyone. Trying to blame those above for leading them runs into a problem, for if a mage is stabbed by a Dog Boy or shot by a grunt, there are over 20 ranks above them to get through before you can land the blame on the Proseks, or even the high staff. Unless Karl personally hired an assassin, good luck with that.

The exact description says the person "responsible" for his death. Karl Prosek or Joseph Prosek etc is the person responsible for the all out war on magic. Thus it works, you in your game might say no but they are the ones that are at the top of the heap giving the orders.

"an enemy may hire an assassin or create the circumstances that lead to the sorcerer's death"

EDIT: Also, it takes effect on who the sorcerer casting the spell believes is the cause of his death. The sorcerer's belief is all that's required, it can even take effect on innocent people though it's very rare according to the spell description.

[The Beast]

Simply put, I wouldn't topple the CS. The stability of their power structure is, IMO, necessary to the lands of NA. That said, I'd be all for some strategic assassinations in the upper echelons of power to ensure that more even-handed and rational leaders could rise to prominence.

Combine that with changing the hearts & minds of the people of the CS will be the only real option that'll work in the long run.

With enough tools and the right Cyber-Doc I'm sure I change the CS hearts and minds.

[Godogma]

You're missing the point - read the whole spell description very carefully.

It's who the sorcerer *Believes* is responsible, and the spell even works on those who are innocent of the act. The spell only takes effect on the singular person the sorcerer believes is responsible for his death and it uses up his remaining life force to cast it.

[Godogma]

"Only one person can be afflicted by this curse and the mage must honestly believe that individual is responsible for his death. If wrong about the guilty party, an innocent victim can be cursed, but this is a rarity."

Directly word for word from the book. (though the emphasis is mine).

[Godogma]

You're missing the point - read the whole spell description very carefully.

It's who the sorcerer *Believes* is responsible, and the spell even works on those who are innocent of the act.

I have read it, I have the book in my hands. I understand that it's possible to believe that somebody else is responsible and curse them, but I would guess this for situations where you don't know who killed you(traps, snipers, sickness, curses). If a guy is stabbing you, do you ignore him and yell "PROSEK!" to the heavens? How many people go, yep, Karl Prosek personally fired that gun, or hired that hit. I may live in a tiny village on the outskirts of South Dakota, but I'm sure the Emperor himself personally asked for my execution.
You are saying that all mages who happen to have this spell when they die are all insane and believe themselves to be martyred by the Proseks. What you are looking for is a blank check in the rules.

No, I specifically stated in the War on Tolkeen, many of the Patriots of Tolkeen probably lay the whole mess at the Prosek's feet if you'll scroll up you can see that.

EDIT: And Karl and Joseph are very public figures in their speeches and the like, so its very easy to lay blame at their feet.

[Godogma]

You're missing the point - read the whole spell description very carefully.

It's who the sorcerer *Believes* is responsible, and the spell even works on those who are innocent of the act.

I have read it, I have the book in my hands. I understand that it's possible to believe that somebody else is responsible and curse them, but I would guess this for situations where you don't know who killed you(traps, snipers, sickness, curses). If a guy is stabbing you, do you ignore him and yell "PROSEK!" to the heavens? How many people go, yep, Karl Prosek personally fired that gun, or hired that hit. I may live in a tiny village on the outskirts of South Dakota, but I'm sure the Emperor himself personally asked for my execution.
You are saying that all mages who happen to have this spell when they die are all insane and believe themselves to be martyred by the Proseks. What you are looking for is a blank check in the rules.

No, I specifically stated in the War on Tolkeen, many of the Patriots of Tolkeen probably lay the whole mess at the Prosek's feet if you'll scroll up you can see that.

Doesn't matter, your open interpretation applies to everyone. The Coalition, Tolkeen, Lord Coake(cyber-knight kills an evil mage), Free Quebec, Larsen's Brigade. Enjoy.

I never said it didn't. My interpretation fits the text of the spell.

[flatline]

Doesn't matter, your open interpretation applies to everyone. The Coalition, Tolkeen, Lord Coake(cyber-knight kills an evil mage), Free Quebec, Larsen's Brigade. Enjoy.

I never said it didn't. My interpretation fits the text of the spell.

Your interpretation can fit the text of the spell. But it's your interpretation. Your interpretation also makes sure there are no leaders in the Megaverse that still have good stats because this spell exists. You destroy the mechanics, story and characters of the game. Is there some reason you enjoy this other than taking comfort in saying "well the book said so"?

Don't go claiming his reading of the spell is wrong just because if he's right, the current setting is unsustainable. Death Curse is just one of dozens of spells/psionics/powers/whatever that could, as written, completely alter the setting.

Let me give you another example, this time from Wormwood. There's a whole dimension of Holy Terrors, but game balance is preserved because the shifter that opened the portal to that dimension is dead and for some reason nobody else can find a way to that dimension. Except that every Holy Terror on Wormwood is from that dimension. And there's a spell that grants literacy. And anyone who can read a scroll of dimensional portal can open a portal to any dimension they've been to. See the problem?

For what it's worth, I agree with his interpretation of Death Curse. I've often pondered giving Talismans of Death Curse to every fanatical anti-CS person I run into just on the off-chance that one of them would be able to use it against Prosek or some non-grunt that actually mattered.

--flatline

[Godogma]

Just because you don't like the way the spell is and it would destroy how the setting is set up doesn't mean the spell doesn't exist or that if it were used it wouldn't destroy the Coalition - which was the point of the thread.

[Godogma]

However, I *WAS* quoting a canon spell and how it would work in canon - I wasn't asking for your opinion on the matter. Its not my fault that it breaks the setting. One thing to keep in mind however is that not everyone knows the spell; though in canon it seems no one knows the spell at all and it was included only to spawn these discussions.

Except I never said it would stop at the Coalition - you're trying to put words in my mouth there.

[Nightmask]

However, I *WAS* quoting a canon spell and how it would work in canon - I wasn't asking for your opinion on the matter. Its not my fault that it breaks the setting. One thing to keep in mind however is that not everyone knows the spell; though in canon it seems no one knows the spell at all and it was included only to spawn these discussions.

Hardly the first time something was introduced that the broad implications were never thought of ahead of time by the writers. Things like that are what create entire bound volumes of combinations you can't use in various Collectable Card Games because the results of adding those new cards to the existing ones created a gamebreaker that wasn't realized until people were actively playing and clued in on it. I seem to remember the case of a classic killer 1st edition AD&D module where creative players in a tournament managed to use a character killer artifact to defeat the big bad (complete with Gary Gygax himself ruling it worked), reprints added in a new bit of text to prevent the players of the game after that point from being able to enjoy that same kind of creativity (since apparently no one's supposed to win, it's like the Kobayashi Maru of AD&D).

[Nightmask]

However, I *WAS* quoting a canon spell and how it would work in canon - I wasn't asking for your opinion on the matter. Its not my fault that it breaks the setting. One thing to keep in mind however is that not everyone knows the spell; though in canon it seems no one knows the spell at all and it was included only to spawn these discussions.

Except I never said it would stop at the Coalition - you're trying to put words in my mouth there.

If "no one knows the spell at all" how is it supposed to take down the Coalition? My point is even before you used it against the Coalition someone would have used it the the same fashion you desired on anyone else. It's like saying "I'm going to nuke the Coalition by giving everyone in the game nukes".

I think he's pointing out how rare though it is the spell must not exist on Rifts Earth because we never see any evidence of it no matter how much we ought to. So basically commenting on yet another aspect of the game where something that by all rights should be seen and used isn't being used by anyone.

[Godogma]

However, I *WAS* quoting a canon spell and how it would work in canon - I wasn't asking for your opinion on the matter. Its not my fault that it breaks the setting. One thing to keep in mind however is that not everyone knows the spell; though in canon it seems no one knows the spell at all and it was included only to spawn these discussions.

Except I never said it would stop at the Coalition - you're trying to put words in my mouth there.

If "no one knows the spell at all" how is it supposed to take down the Coalition? My point is even before you used it against the Coalition someone would have used it the the same fashion you desired on anyone else. It's like saying "I'm going to nuke the Coalition by giving everyone in the game nukes".

I was quoting a possibility for taking down the Coalition as a mental exercise. I have NOT seen a single character with Death Curse in their spell list and I own and have read nearly every book extant in the entire Rifts line up, including the stuff for Phase World, Wormwood etc. So Death Curse may as well not exist save as something to spawn these discussions.

I'm not arguing with you about it, we can agree to disagree - hell I don't even know what your problem is. This was all a mental exercise for me until you decided to argue about how it worked. My interpretation is that it works as written and I've still never seen it anywhere in anyone's spell list.

[Lt Gargoyle]

I say the Van Guard have placed protection spells all over the city of chi town to protect the emperor from such spells. I would not allow a single player to have this spell as a GM. I would not even allow it to be misconstrude. If you believe someone had you killed with no evidence or reason other then some delusion of your own mind, is a stretch.

[Godogma]

I say the Van Guard have placed protection spells all over the city of chi town to protect the emperor from such spells. I would not allow a single player to have this spell as a GM. I would not even allow it to be misconstrude. If you believe someone had you killed with no evidence or reason other then some delusion of your own mind, is a stretch.

The Vanguard are a terrorist organization that only Joseph knows exists currently - and everything and its brother in Chi-Town can detect magic. The way they have it set up and covered in every other book the Vanguard CAN'T even exist in the Burbs the way they supposedly do because they'd be detected almost instantly and killed off. Much less cast a spell of that nature over the whole of Chi-Town, without being detected and summarily executed by their own people.

EDIT: They also have access to a very finite class list as far as access to magic goes... I believe there are ... four of them perhaps IIRC without digging out my book on them. None of those classes have the capability to do what you're talking about. They aren't magical innovators or anything remotely of the sort.

The war on Tolkeen is a reason and the Emperor is the initiator - there's plenty of evidence there, but I'm not arguing this with you. The spell may as well not exist - there's no evidence of it in any spell list for any character I can even remotely recall; it's in the book of magic and this was a thought exercise.

[Godogma]

Thanks to the Shield of Siembieda he doesn't even have to worry about the spells of legend that we know Tolkeen was holding in reserve to use should it become a near certainty that Tolkeen was going to fall. Which was directly in the description of Blight - and yet it never happened.

[Godogma]

Pretty much in games I run the Coalition frankly is nowhere near as big a dog as Coalition War Campaign and a lot of the newer books make them out to be. There are just too many ways in which magic never got used against them that make too much damn sense for it not to have happened - which would have held them back enough to be a reasonable villain without making them essentially the #2 power on the planet after Atlantis.

For instance, Blight of Ages did get cast on Iowa/Missouri and a lot of their people are starving and the Vanguard (which also has to be reworked if I even choose to include them at all) is trying to figure out a way to cure and they're having to import a LOT of foodstuffs from Germany to make up the difference until something gets figured out. Also they're intensifying growing stuff and having to fortify their positions further to protect farmers in other areas while the Blight of Ages just keeps growing to encompass more of their lands in Iowa and Missouri... (To stop when I figure its reasonable and when more people from the Tolkeen front get tired of sneaking around and casting it).

Etc... Of course the little people of the Coalition suffer as well/more but after the Coalition's leaders essentially went scorched earth genocide on Tolkeen those mages are P!ssed! and not in the mood to give a tinkers dam.

I haven't set all of this up in specificity for the campaign I'm running and its very rough but this is what I'm thinking right off the top of my head.

My players and I find it more interesting when the Evil Empire doesn't hold all the aces in games we play.

[flatline]

Doesn't matter, your open interpretation applies to everyone. The Coalition, Tolkeen, Lord Coake(cyber-knight kills an evil mage), Free Quebec, Larsen's Brigade. Enjoy.

I never said it didn't. My interpretation fits the text of the spell.

Your interpretation can fit the text of the spell. But it's your interpretation. Your interpretation also makes sure there are no leaders in the Megaverse that still have good stats because this spell exists. You destroy the mechanics, story and characters of the game. Is there some reason you enjoy this other than taking comfort in saying "well the book said so"?

Don't go claiming his reading of the spell is wrong just because if he's right, the current setting is unsustainable. Death Curse is just one of dozens of spells/psionics/powers/whatever that could, as written, completely alter the setting.

Let me give you another example, this time from Wormwood. There's a whole dimension of Holy Terrors, but game balance is preserved because the shifter that opened the portal to that dimension is dead and for some reason nobody else can find a way to that dimension. Except that every Holy Terror on Wormwood is from that dimension. And there's a spell that grants literacy. And anyone who can read a scroll of dimensional portal can open a portal to any dimension they've been to. See the problem?

For what it's worth, I agree with his interpretation of Death Curse. I've often pondered giving Talismans of Death Curse to every fanatical anti-CS person I run into just on the off-chance that one of them would be able to use it against Prosek or some non-grunt that actually mattered.

--flatline

Your tag says you don't want canon answers, but well reasoned ones, but you support a verbatim spell interpretation that destroys not just game balance, but every prominent NPC in the game. If not for making the game unsustainable, what other reason do you need to apply sense to this spell?

The game is already unstable by design and Death Curse is already self-limiting by design, so I'm cool with it. Personally, I consider it a waste of a spell, but it does come up in threads like this as an unreliable yet viable weapon against the CS (or anyone else, for that matter).

The circumstances required to be able to use Death Curse are hard enough to orchestrate that I don't see it as a game destroying spell as written in the book. The CS could continue to function if Prosek was afflicted by the Death Curse and there's no indication in the book that multiple Death Curses stack (although a GM could certainly rule that way).

--flatline

[flatline]

The game is already unstable by design and Death Curse is already self-limiting by design, so I'm cool with it. Personally, I consider it a waste of a spell, but it does come up in threads like this as an unreliable yet viable weapon against the CS (or anyone else, for that matter).

The circumstances required to be able to use Death Curse are hard enough to orchestrate that I don't see it as a game destroying spell as written in the book. The CS could continue to function if Prosek was afflicted by the Death Curse and there's no indication in the book that multiple Death Curses stack (although a GM could certainly rule that way).

--flatline

The spell is self limiting only if you are talking about it being taught to casters who then die. I suggested several others where it would not be self limiting with abuse by Shape Shifters, Psychics and Demons. You proposed using anyone and a Talisman to accomplish an ongoing campaign of martyrs upon the Coalition. If you thought it was a waste of a spell, or hard to orchestrate, why suggest it as a tactic?

I would never waste any of my starting spell slots on it, but, like any spell, I'll buy it if I have the chance. I don't think Death Curse will topple the CS by itself, but it might be one of the paper cuts that helps set the CS up for toppling.

For very little effort, I could create and distribute a dozen Death Curse Talismans, but my expectations would be extremely low that anyone would actually activate the talisman right before they die. Even if they were all selected because they had the presence of mind to do so, how often do people actually know they're about to die with enough time to activate a talisman? Maybe lots, but I certainly wouldn't make such a thing the lynchpin of my plan to topple the CS. It's just a bonus if it happens.

--flatline

[Nightmaster]

Just a spell to create havoc with the CS society and High Command:

Soultwist, Rifts Book of Magic, page 145

Take a look and think about the proseks or some of the members of the high command affect by this spell.

[The Beast]

...I have NOT seen a single character with Death Curse in their spell list and I own and have read nearly every book extant in the entire Rifts line up, including the stuff for Phase World, Wormwood etc...

Lord Dunscon knows it.

[Godogma]

...I have NOT seen a single character with Death Curse in their spell list and I own and have read nearly every book extant in the entire Rifts line up, including the stuff for Phase World, Wormwood etc...

Lord Dunscon knows it.

Where is Lord Dunscon actually statted in the books? I must have missed it because I can't even recall seeing an entry for him.

[Rallan]

Hire assassins who can teleport (or turn intangible, astrally travel, or cast 4D Transformation), give them high explosives, and get them to find and kill the entire high command.

You know, the blindingly obvious tactic that didn't stop the Siege of Tolkeen in six minutes because all the major players had to be incompetent morons for the sake of the plot.

[Godogma]

Hire assassins who can teleport (or turn intangible, astrally travel, or cast 4D Transformation), give them high explosives, and get them to find and kill the entire high command.

You know, the blindingly obvious tactic that didn't stop the Siege of Tolkeen in six minutes because all the major players had to be incompetent morons for the sake of the plot.

See "Shield of Siembieda" cross referenced under "reasons Tolkeen lost the war and never used any of the truly awesome ways they could and should have screwed over the Coalition." In your Palladium Section today.

[The Beast]

...I have NOT seen a single character with Death Curse in their spell list and I own and have read nearly every book extant in the entire Rifts line up, including the stuff for Phase World, Wormwood etc...

Lord Dunscon knows it.

Where is Lord Dunscon actually statted in the books? I must have missed it because I can't even recall seeing an entry for him.

WB16.

[V-Origin]

4th Dimensional Transformation and a Nuke Bomb.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Just a spell to create havoc with the CS society and High Command:

Soultwist, Rifts Book of Magic, page 145

Take a look and think about the proseks or some of the members of the high command affect by this spell.

That could have been a great way to avert or stop the war if the Proseks suddenly doubt if their campaign will work or even if they should be trying to do it at all. Or like the Death Curse spell, makes them have to decide whether or not to seek out magical means for a cure, or perhaps a dark god takes the opportunity to help(disguised or not) and has the Proseks in his pocket. Or maybe he goes to Desmond Bradford when he exhausts all other scientific means, who gets to experiment on him, and perhaps doesn't think of him as a god anymore.

Or perhaps a good nature Mage would see the players a greater threat in the megaverse and remove them from it.

[Godogma]

Just a spell to create havoc with the CS society and High Command:

Soultwist, Rifts Book of Magic, page 145

Take a look and think about the proseks or some of the members of the high command affect by this spell.

That could have been a great way to avert or stop the war if the Proseks suddenly doubt if their campaign will work or even if they should be trying to do it at all. Or like the Death Curse spell, makes them have to decide whether or not to seek out magical means for a cure, or perhaps a dark god takes the opportunity to help(disguised or not) and has the Proseks in his pocket. Or maybe he goes to Desmond Bradford when he exhausts all other scientific means, who gets to experiment on him, and perhaps doesn't think of him as a god anymore.

Or perhaps a good nature Mage would see the players a greater threat in the megaverse and remove them from it.

*start sarcasm* Yeah, I'm sure you're correct - a good natured mage would see the players as a bigger threat in the megaverse than the Coalition States... I'm sure that's how it'd work, when all things considered that mage can expect to be tortured in extreme ways by the selfsame coalition as well as mutilated in various ways. *end sarcasm*

Only a truly fanatical mind could believe something like that. Like perhaps the Vanguard, who I also don't believe could exist in the form we're shown in the Vanguard book - aside from the fact they're supposed to be based in the 'Burbs where they would be quite easily sensed and hunted town like dogs. Also, their parents might have been that fanatical - they had reason to be loyal to the Coalition; it treated them well before asking them to leave ... the children of the original Vanguard not so much, considering how the Coalition treats them.

[V-Origin]

Just a spell to create havoc with the CS society and High Command:

Soultwist, Rifts Book of Magic, page 145

Take a look and think about the proseks or some of the members of the high command affect by this spell.

That could have been a great way to avert or stop the war if the Proseks suddenly doubt if their campaign will work or even if they should be trying to do it at all. Or like the Death Curse spell, makes them have to decide whether or not to seek out magical means for a cure, or perhaps a dark god takes the opportunity to help(disguised or not) and has the Proseks in his pocket. Or maybe he goes to Desmond Bradford when he exhausts all other scientific means, who gets to experiment on him, and perhaps doesn't think of him as a god anymore.

Or perhaps a good nature Mage would see the players a greater threat in the megaverse and remove them from it.

*start sarcasm* Yeah, I'm sure you're correct - a good natured mage would see the players as a bigger threat in the megaverse than the Coalition States... I'm sure that's how it'd work, when all things considered that mage can expect to be tortured in extreme ways by the selfsame coalition as well as mutilated in various ways. *end sarcasm*

Only a truly fanatical mind could believe something like that. Like perhaps the Vanguard, who I also don't believe could exist in the form we're shown in the Vanguard book - aside from the fact they're supposed to be based in the 'Burbs where they would be quite easily sensed and hunted town like dogs. Also, their parents might have been that fanatical - they had reason to be loyal to the Coalition; it treated them well before asking them to leave ... the children of the original Vanguard not so much, considering how the Coalition treats them.

The CS is doomed right from the start.

Only thing preventing the CS from being chewed up all at once is the GM trying to drag on the CS's pain for as long as possible.

Death is too good for the CS.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Just a spell to create havoc with the CS society and High Command:

Soultwist, Rifts Book of Magic, page 145

Take a look and think about the proseks or some of the members of the high command affect by this spell.

That could have been a great way to avert or stop the war if the Proseks suddenly doubt if their campaign will work or even if they should be trying to do it at all. Or like the Death Curse spell, makes them have to decide whether or not to seek out magical means for a cure, or perhaps a dark god takes the opportunity to help(disguised or not) and has the Proseks in his pocket. Or maybe he goes to Desmond Bradford when he exhausts all other scientific means, who gets to experiment on him, and perhaps doesn't think of him as a god anymore.

Or perhaps a good nature Mage would see the players a greater threat in the megaverse and remove them from it.

*start sarcasm* Yeah, I'm sure you're correct - a good natured mage would see the players as a bigger threat in the megaverse than the Coalition States... I'm sure that's how it'd work, when all things considered that mage can expect to be tortured in extreme ways by the selfsame coalition as well as mutilated in various ways. *end sarcasm*

Only a truly fanatical mind could believe something like that. Like perhaps the Vanguard, who I also don't believe could exist in the form we're shown in the Vanguard book - aside from the fact they're supposed to be based in the 'Burbs where they would be quite easily sensed and hunted town like dogs. Also, their parents might have been that fanatical - they had reason to be loyal to the Coalition; it treated them well before asking them to leave ... the children of the original Vanguard not so much, considering how the Coalition treats them.

you are so right why would a mage fight for and try to save a group of people trying to kill him, thats only something a hero would do

[Godogma]

Just a spell to create havoc with the CS society and High Command:

Soultwist, Rifts Book of Magic, page 145

Take a look and think about the proseks or some of the members of the high command affect by this spell.

That could have been a great way to avert or stop the war if the Proseks suddenly doubt if their campaign will work or even if they should be trying to do it at all. Or like the Death Curse spell, makes them have to decide whether or not to seek out magical means for a cure, or perhaps a dark god takes the opportunity to help(disguised or not) and has the Proseks in his pocket. Or maybe he goes to Desmond Bradford when he exhausts all other scientific means, who gets to experiment on him, and perhaps doesn't think of him as a god anymore.

Or perhaps a good nature Mage would see the players a greater threat in the megaverse and remove them from it.

*start sarcasm* Yeah, I'm sure you're correct - a good natured mage would see the players as a bigger threat in the megaverse than the Coalition States... I'm sure that's how it'd work, when all things considered that mage can expect to be tortured in extreme ways by the selfsame coalition as well as mutilated in various ways. *end sarcasm*

Only a truly fanatical mind could believe something like that. Like perhaps the Vanguard, who I also don't believe could exist in the form we're shown in the Vanguard book - aside from the fact they're supposed to be based in the 'Burbs where they would be quite easily sensed and hunted town like dogs. Also, their parents might have been that fanatical - they had reason to be loyal to the Coalition; it treated them well before asking them to leave ... the children of the original Vanguard not so much, considering how the Coalition treats them.

you are so right why would a mage fight for and try to save a group of people trying to kill him, thats only something a hero would do

The word you're looking for is moron.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

i take it you guys dont play your characters as heroes

[Godogma]

You can be a hero and not be a moron who's willing to protect people who commit genocide. As well as torture you and/or mutilate you.

[flatline]

i take it you guys dont play your characters as heroes

I'm a villain to the CS. I'm a hero to all those I've protected against the CS. I'm competition to others.

It's all a matter of perspective.

--flatline

[Godogma]

As a matter of fact I can make a good case for someone who protects people who commit genocide and acts of torture and mutilation actually being a first class villain. He can have the best of intentions the whole time, but he's still advancing the cause of evil.

There's this old saying about the road to hell being paved with good intentions.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

As a matter of fact I can make a good case for someone who protects people who commit genocide and acts of torture and mutilation actually being a first class villain. He can have the best of intentions the whole time, but he's still advancing the cause of evil.

There's this old saying about the road to hell being paved with good intentions.

Yup all that evil needs to be triumphed is good to do nothing.

[Godogma]

As a matter of fact I can make a good case for someone who protects people who commit genocide and acts of torture and mutilation actually being a first class villain. He can have the best of intentions the whole time, but he's still advancing the cause of evil.

There's this old saying about the road to hell being paved with good intentions.

Yup all that evil needs to be triumphed is good to do nothing.

Well the higher end people running the Coalition are evil, and they triumph all the time due to the shield of Siembieda and judging by your sig you find murder and genocide and mutilation to be "good" things to do and advocate. Three words for you "Heil fuhrer Prosek".

[Mech-Viper Prime]

As a matter of fact I can make a good case for someone who protects people who commit genocide and acts of torture and mutilation actually being a first class villain. He can have the best of intentions the whole time, but he's still advancing the cause of evil.

There's this old saying about the road to hell being paved with good intentions.

Yup all that evil needs to be triumphed is good to do nothing.

Well the higher end people running the Coalition are evil, and they triumph all the time due to the shield of Siembieda and judging by your sig you find murder and genocide and mutilation to be "good" things to do and advocate. Three words for you "Heil fuhrer Prosek".

"Oh no we can't do anything to CS because KS is protecting them". Sounds an excuse to me, IMO.

[Godogma]

As a matter of fact I can make a good case for someone who protects people who commit genocide and acts of torture and mutilation actually being a first class villain. He can have the best of intentions the whole time, but he's still advancing the cause of evil.

There's this old saying about the road to hell being paved with good intentions.

Yup all that evil needs to be triumphed is good to do nothing.

Well the higher end people running the Coalition are evil, and they triumph all the time due to the shield of Siembieda and judging by your sig you find murder and genocide and mutilation to be "good" things to do and advocate. Three words for you "Heil fuhrer Prosek".

"Oh no we can't do anything to CS because KS is protecting them". Sounds an excuse to me, IMO.

I didn't say that we as players and GM's can't do things to the CS, I said nothing was going to happen to them in the main story because KS is protecting them. They have plot protection as the Evil Empire (TM). For instance see Blight of Ages and various other spells of legend and the Founders Stone as was mentioned earlier.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

As a matter of fact I can make a good case for someone who protects people who commit genocide and acts of torture and mutilation actually being a first class villain. He can have the best of intentions the whole time, but he's still advancing the cause of evil.

There's this old saying about the road to hell being paved with good intentions.

Yup all that evil needs to be triumphed is good to do nothing.

Well the higher end people running the Coalition are evil, and they triumph all the time due to the shield of Siembieda and judging by your sig you find murder and genocide and mutilation to be "good" things to do and advocate. Three words for you "Heil fuhrer Prosek".

"Oh no we can't do anything to CS because KS is protecting them". Sounds an excuse to me, IMO.

I didn't say that we as players and GM's can't do things to the CS, I said nothing was going to happen to them in the main story because KS is protecting them. They have plot protection as the Evil Empire (TM). For instance see Blight of Ages and various other spells of legend and the Founders Stone as was mentioned earlier.

Many of the other kingdoms in rifts share the "shield of siembieda"