Where do you stand? (Coalition)

[Mack]

Both and neither.

Sorry, but they are intended to be ambiguous and heavily dependent one's point of view.

[Incriptus]

I have to vote no, but probably only from my god like perspective. I know that they are NOT the best hope for humanity. Geographically they're simply too small to be honest. Life will go on without them.

If I were a Citizen under their protection I would likely be pro-CS. But with places like Lazlo, New Lazlo, Northern Gun, Merc Town, Kingsdale, Dweomer, Psycape, or any of a dozen smaller but secure locals, I would go there if I could.

[Nightmask]

The Coalition in general due to its policies particularly genocide towards non-humans and mages is quite evil, while some individuals may be good and recognize the wrongness of that and oppose it given the chance to learn the truth many are apathetically evil and don't much care that others are being killed without just cause as long as they're taken care of.

[flatline]

The CS is just part of the setting. Whether I'm with or against them depends entirely on what character I'm playing.

That said, I almost always play a D-Bee or a mage, so while the CS is almost never The Enemy, it is usually an enemy.

If you can do it, stealing from the CS is one of the quickest ways to amass significant wealth in the game.

--flatline

[Lenwen]

As i play rifts more and more each week. I wonder to myself; are the coalition evil, or are they heroes of humanity. Where to other players stand on this, where do GM's stand on this. The coalition are xenophobic humans with heavy guns and a nazi like dogma agianst outsiders yes, but behind the skull suits and armor are they just the people that tend to get **** done. Or care about the earth as it is and the earth as they used to see it? Well, help me out here are they good or evil?

KS himself has stated in his books .. they are the "villains" we love to hate ..

If the creator of the entire megaverse see's them as Villains .. That is how I see them ..

[Killer Cyborg]

As i play rifts more and more each week. I wonder to myself; are the coalition evil, or are they heroes of humanity.

They're both.
The game has gotten away from it, but the essence of the original game was that the PCs had to choose between allying with monsters and demons, allying with Nazis, or trying to survive on their own in-between.
Which is awesome.

Think of it like prison.
Everybody with power is one kind of bastard or another, and your only hope is to find the bastard who'll be on your side, or who'll find you useful enough to protect.
Or to try to keep to yourself, and hope you don't tick off the wrong people.

[The Beast]

As i play rifts more and more each week. I wonder to myself; are the coalition evil, or are they heroes of humanity.

They're both.
The game has gotten away from it, but the essence of the original game was that the PCs had to choose between allying with monsters and demons, allying with Nazis, or trying to survive on their own in-between.
Which is awesome.

Think of it like prison.
Everybody with power is one kind of bastard or another, and your only hope is to find the bastard who'll be on your side, or who'll find you useful enough to protect.
Or to try to keep to yourself, and hope you don't tick off the wrong people.

Or you can ask yourself "WWtDD?"

[Mech-Viper Prime]

First off I don't see heroes in the world of rifts, everybody has blood on their hands, but like I said before, if I'm going to serve a master, that master is going to be the same as me.

[gaaahhhh]

As i play rifts more and more each week. I wonder to myself; are the coalition evil, or are they heroes of humanity.

They're both.
The game has gotten away from it, but the essence of the original game was that the PCs had to choose between allying with monsters and demons, allying with Nazis, or trying to survive on their own in-between.
Which is awesome.

Think of it like prison.
Everybody with power is one kind of bastard or another, and your only hope is to find the bastard who'll be on your side, or who'll find you useful enough to protect.
Or to try to keep to yourself, and hope you don't tick off the wrong people.

Or you can ask yourself "WWtDD?"

I would ask myself "What Would Conan Do?"

[The Beast]

I would ask myself "What Would Conan Do?"

We already know what he would do.

[Wooly]

What you meta-gaming D-Bee huggers and mage lovers conveniently ignore is that CS policy is merely a reactionary posture to non-human aggression. Those D-bees that eat people don’t look that different from the “innocent d-bees”. Non-human invaders are to be accepted with hugs and flower? Step off your morality high horse based on an omnipotent view of the game world. Looking at CS society through the lens of a well fed, safe and happy early 21st century human, and then criticizing it is disingenuous at best. Try to think what it might be like growing up in the burbs and suddenly those book burners in the fortress city don’t sound so bad.

Hate the CS for its suppression of individual freedom and anti-literacy policies. I can understand that.
Hate the CS for defending humanity from a very real non-human/magic threat? I disagree.

The difference between the Nazis and the CS is that the Jews and other victims of the holocaust never posed much of a threat to the Third reich. The CS on the other hand exhibits at its core a very normal human reaction to seeing your best friends face getting eaten by a demon.

The CS are usually presented to player characters as a evil empire to fight. After all, every story needs a villain and we like to have clearly defined bad guys in our stories. Such a simplistic view of the CS is only plausible at first glance.

[Nightmask]

What you meta-gaming D-Bee huggers and mage lovers conveniently ignore is that CS policy is merely a reactionary posture to non-human aggression. Those D-bees that eat people don’t look that different from the “innocent d-bees”. Non-human invaders are to be accepted with hugs and flower? Step off your morality high horse based on an omnipotent view of the game world. Looking at CS society through the lens of a well fed, safe and happy early 21st century human, and then criticizing it is disingenuous at best. Try to think what it might be like growing up in the burbs and suddenly those book burners in the fortress city don’t sound so bad.

Hate the CS for its suppression of individual freedom and anti-literacy policies. I can understand that.
Hate the CS for defending humanity from a very real non-human/magic threat? I disagree.

The difference between the Nazis and the CS is that the Jews and other victims of the holocaust never posed much of a threat to the Third reich. The CS on the other hand exhibits at its core a very normal human reaction to seeing your best friends face getting eaten by a demon.

The CS are usually presented to player characters as a evil empire to fight. After all, every story needs a villain and we like to have clearly defined bad guys in our stories. Such a simplistic view of the CS is only plausible at first glance.

The simplistic view is that it's acceptable to go around killing everything because 'well it doesn't look like us it needs to die!', because the CS WILL kill the most non-violent of aliens, those that are even incapable of injuring another being just because they aren't human. Sorry but no the CS does NOT get rated as 'defenders of humanity', defenders of humanity don't have a 'kill them all just in case' policy, they have a 'kill those things that are proven threats to humanity'. The New Navy, Japan, even Triax rate far more the label of 'Defenders of Humanity', the CS does not. That is just a pretense they snow the populace with so they can engage in conquest with popular support by convincing them that 'well they had it coming'.

[Giant2005]

What you meta-gaming D-Bee huggers and mage lovers conveniently ignore is that CS policy is merely a reactionary posture to non-human aggression. Those D-bees that eat people don’t look that different from the “innocent d-bees”. Non-human invaders are to be accepted with hugs and flower? Step off your morality high horse based on an omnipotent view of the game world. Looking at CS society through the lens of a well fed, safe and happy early 21st century human, and then criticizing it is disingenuous at best. Try to think what it might be like growing up in the burbs and suddenly those book burners in the fortress city don’t sound so bad.

Hate the CS for its suppression of individual freedom and anti-literacy policies. I can understand that.
Hate the CS for defending humanity from a very real non-human/magic threat? I disagree.

The difference between the Nazis and the CS is that the Jews and other victims of the holocaust never posed much of a threat to the Third reich. The CS on the other hand exhibits at its core a very normal human reaction to seeing your best friends face getting eaten by a demon.

The CS are usually presented to player characters as a evil empire to fight. After all, every story needs a villain and we like to have clearly defined bad guys in our stories. Such a simplistic view of the CS is only plausible at first glance.

You would have a point if it weren't for the likes of the NGR, Japan and Geofront who can all distinguish quite easily which DBees are good and which are bad. They slaughter the bad ones and recruit the good and are themselves stronger and their enemies less numerous for the effort.
The CS had its merits as the last bastion of humanity when Rifts was first released but now we have nations that are more up to the task and do it without resorting to murder and genocide.
Why would a well fed, safe and happy early 21st century human support the CS when other nations prove the restrictive and genocidal ways of the CS are largely unnecessary?

[Wooly]

Ever serve in a infantry unit? Ever serve in a forward area? Ever put your life in another man's hands, ask him to put his life in yours?

I have.

The confusion of the modern real world battlefield between combatant and non-combatant is already blurred. I can't image adding magic, shape shifters, etc to the mix of fighting an insurgency. My view point isn't politically correct but it is pragmatic.

It is not an unreasonable reaction to have an unrestricted ROE when it comes to non-human/magic users. CS Grunts don't have a copy of D-bees of North America on hand to consult on who is bad and who isn't. They don't know every proven threat. How would you like to be in the infantry private that gets volunteered to meet and greet an unidentified d-bee? After all under your policy we have to determine if they are hostile or not before we engage. I sure wouldn't want to give that order much less be the one to carry it out.

The CS reaction is completely rational and understandable. We humans are reactionary by nature. History shapes what we become. The unprovoked attacks by D-bees and magic users shaped the CS into what it is. NOT the other way around. I would even go so far to say that more humans have died at the hands of d-bees since the coming of the Rifts than at the hands of the CS.

The CS does not kill every D-bee it encounters, period. That assertion is not supported in cannon.

[Nightmask]

Ever serve in a infantry unit? Ever serve in a forward area? Ever put your life in another man's hands, ask him to put his life in yours?

I have.

The confusion of the modern real world battlefield between combatant and non-combatant is already blurred. I can't image adding magic, shape shifters, etc to the mix of fighting an insurgency. My view point isn't politically correct but it is pragmatic.

It is not an unreasonable reaction to have an unrestricted ROE when it comes to non-human/magic users. CS Grunts don't have a copy of D-bees of North America on hand to consult on who is bad and who isn't. They don't know every proven threat. How would you like to be in the infantry private that gets volunteered to meet and greet an unidentified d-bee? After all under your policy we have to determine if they are hostile or not before we engage. I sure wouldn't want to give that order much less be the one to carry it out.

The CS reaction is completely rational and understandable. We humans are reactionary by nature. History shapes what we become. The unprovoked attacks by D-bees and magic users shaped the CS into what it is. NOT the other way around. I would even go so far to say that more humans have died at the hands of d-bees since the coming of the Rifts than at the hands of the CS.

The CS does not kill every D-bee it encounters, period. That assertion is not supported in cannon.

Sorry but 'rational and understandable' definitely do not apply to the CS, we know quite well that their policies are designed for keeping the population blindly supporting them and manageable which they couldn't do if the population said 'hey wait we shouldn't be killing innocent aliens, they have families and things just like us we should just be killing the bad ones'. The CS operates under the need for power control and aggressive expansion allowing for no others to exist, they even attacked a member state because its existence was undermining that because they refused to be ordered around and demonstrated that education and literacy weren't a threat.

[Wooly]

Ever serve in a infantry unit? Ever serve in a forward area? Ever put your life in another man's hands, ask him to put his life in yours?

I have.

The confusion of the modern real world battlefield between combatant and non-combatant is already blurred. I can't image adding magic, shape shifters, etc to the mix of fighting an insurgency. My view point isn't politically correct but it is pragmatic.

It is not an unreasonable reaction to have an unrestricted ROE when it comes to non-human/magic users. CS Grunts don't have a copy of D-bees of North America on hand to consult on who is bad and who isn't. They don't know every proven threat. How would you like to be in the infantry private that gets volunteered to meet and greet an unidentified d-bee? After all under your policy we have to determine if they are hostile or not before we engage. I sure wouldn't want to give that order much less be the one to carry it out.

The CS reaction is completely rational and understandable. We humans are reactionary by nature. History shapes what we become. The unprovoked attacks by D-bees and magic users shaped the CS into what it is. NOT the other way around. I would even go so far to say that more humans have died at the hands of d-bees since the coming of the Rifts than at the hands of the CS.

The CS does not kill every D-bee it encounters, period. That assertion is not supported in cannon.

Sorry but 'rational and understandable' definitely do not apply to the CS, we know quite well that their policies are designed for keeping the population blindly supporting them and manageable which they couldn't do if the population said 'hey wait we shouldn't be killing innocent aliens, they have families and things just like us we should just be killing the bad ones'. The CS operates under the need for power control and aggressive expansion allowing for no others to exist, they even attacked a member state because its existence was undermining that because they refused to be ordered around and demonstrated that education and literacy weren't a threat.

I am only defending the CS policy against non humans and magic users which is often trotted out as proof the CS is evil. I actually specfucally stated that I disagree with their facist dictatorship but in such an emergency situation (at least initially in "early" CS history which was what 40 years ago?) it was was understandable (ala martial law). You addressed nothing else I said nor did you answer any of my specific questions.

So I will just ask one question. What is the criteria for identifiying "innocent aliens" and how is it determined?

[Wooly]

What you meta-gaming D-Bee huggers and mage lovers conveniently ignore is that CS policy is merely a reactionary posture to non-human aggression. Those D-bees that eat people don’t look that different from the “innocent d-bees”. Non-human invaders are to be accepted with hugs and flower? Step off your morality high horse based on an omnipotent view of the game world. Looking at CS society through the lens of a well fed, safe and happy early 21st century human, and then criticizing it is disingenuous at best. Try to think what it might be like growing up in the burbs and suddenly those book burners in the fortress city don’t sound so bad.

Hate the CS for its suppression of individual freedom and anti-literacy policies. I can understand that.
Hate the CS for defending humanity from a very real non-human/magic threat? I disagree.

The difference between the Nazis and the CS is that the Jews and other victims of the holocaust never posed much of a threat to the Third reich. The CS on the other hand exhibits at its core a very normal human reaction to seeing your best friends face getting eaten by a demon.

The CS are usually presented to player characters as a evil empire to fight. After all, every story needs a villain and we like to have clearly defined bad guys in our stories. Such a simplistic view of the CS is only plausible at first glance.

You would have a point if it weren't for the likes of the NGR, Japan and Geofront who can all distinguish quite easily which DBees are good and which are bad. They slaughter the bad ones and recruit the good and are themselves stronger and their enemies less numerous for the effort.
The CS had its merits as the last bastion of humanity when Rifts was first released but now we have nations that are more up to the task and do it without resorting to murder and genocide.
Why would a well fed, safe and happy early 21st century human support the CS when other nations prove the restrictive and genocidal ways of the CS are largely unnecessary?

NGR treats d-bees as second class citizens and uses them as cannon fodder. Hardly a shining example.

We have more info on the CS then all the other human powers combined. So this isn't a really fair comparison.

My asserition is that the CS policy toward non humans is one that was formed for a reason. It was based on unprovoked attacks by magic users and non humans. That is what makes it understandable. That is what makes it rational under the circumstances.

One of the themes of Rifts is humanities climb from the ashes. The CS mindset is a product of their enviroment. The attacks by the Federation of magic shaped the CS into what it is. It is what allowed a military dictatorship to take hold and it is what shaped their view toward non humans.

[Nightmask]

Ever serve in a infantry unit? Ever serve in a forward area? Ever put your life in another man's hands, ask him to put his life in yours?

I have.

The confusion of the modern real world battlefield between combatant and non-combatant is already blurred. I can't image adding magic, shape shifters, etc to the mix of fighting an insurgency. My view point isn't politically correct but it is pragmatic.

It is not an unreasonable reaction to have an unrestricted ROE when it comes to non-human/magic users. CS Grunts don't have a copy of D-bees of North America on hand to consult on who is bad and who isn't. They don't know every proven threat. How would you like to be in the infantry private that gets volunteered to meet and greet an unidentified d-bee? After all under your policy we have to determine if they are hostile or not before we engage. I sure wouldn't want to give that order much less be the one to carry it out.

The CS reaction is completely rational and understandable. We humans are reactionary by nature. History shapes what we become. The unprovoked attacks by D-bees and magic users shaped the CS into what it is. NOT the other way around. I would even go so far to say that more humans have died at the hands of d-bees since the coming of the Rifts than at the hands of the CS.

The CS does not kill every D-bee it encounters, period. That assertion is not supported in cannon.

Sorry but 'rational and understandable' definitely do not apply to the CS, we know quite well that their policies are designed for keeping the population blindly supporting them and manageable which they couldn't do if the population said 'hey wait we shouldn't be killing innocent aliens, they have families and things just like us we should just be killing the bad ones'. The CS operates under the need for power control and aggressive expansion allowing for no others to exist, they even attacked a member state because its existence was undermining that because they refused to be ordered around and demonstrated that education and literacy weren't a threat.

I am only defending the CS policy against non humans and magic users which is often trotted out as proof the CS is evil. I actually specfucally stated that I disagree with their facist dictatorship but in such an emergency situation (at least initially in "early" CS history which was what 40 years ago?) it was was understandable (ala martial law). You addressed nothing else I said nor did you answer any of my specific questions.

So I will just ask one question. What is the criteria for identifiying "innocent aliens" and how is it determined?

Sorry but that question has no more value to it than 'how can you tell an innocent black from an evil one?'. 'Gee we need to kill them all because we can't tell which are evil' has always been a hallmark of evil, when it's treated as easier to just kill everyone because well the innocent aren't that important at least we got the bad ones, maybe. The US bombing innocent Vietnam villages because 'well we can't tell the bad guys apart from the innocent' is no less a war crime and a heinous evil than terrorists setting off bombs in crowded marketplaces.

[Giant2005]

What you meta-gaming D-Bee huggers and mage lovers conveniently ignore is that CS policy is merely a reactionary posture to non-human aggression. Those D-bees that eat people don’t look that different from the “innocent d-bees”. Non-human invaders are to be accepted with hugs and flower? Step off your morality high horse based on an omnipotent view of the game world. Looking at CS society through the lens of a well fed, safe and happy early 21st century human, and then criticizing it is disingenuous at best. Try to think what it might be like growing up in the burbs and suddenly those book burners in the fortress city don’t sound so bad.

Hate the CS for its suppression of individual freedom and anti-literacy policies. I can understand that.
Hate the CS for defending humanity from a very real non-human/magic threat? I disagree.

The difference between the Nazis and the CS is that the Jews and other victims of the holocaust never posed much of a threat to the Third reich. The CS on the other hand exhibits at its core a very normal human reaction to seeing your best friends face getting eaten by a demon.

The CS are usually presented to player characters as a evil empire to fight. After all, every story needs a villain and we like to have clearly defined bad guys in our stories. Such a simplistic view of the CS is only plausible at first glance.

You would have a point if it weren't for the likes of the NGR, Japan and Geofront who can all distinguish quite easily which DBees are good and which are bad. They slaughter the bad ones and recruit the good and are themselves stronger and their enemies less numerous for the effort.
The CS had its merits as the last bastion of humanity when Rifts was first released but now we have nations that are more up to the task and do it without resorting to murder and genocide.
Why would a well fed, safe and happy early 21st century human support the CS when other nations prove the restrictive and genocidal ways of the CS are largely unnecessary?

NGR treats d-bees as second class citizens and uses them as cannon fodder. Hardly a shining example.

We have more info on the CS then all the other human powers combined. So this isn't a really fair comparison.

My asserition is that the CS policy toward non humans is one that was formed for a reason. It was based on unprovoked attacks by magic users and non humans. That is what makes it understandable. That is what makes it rational under the circumstances.

One of the themes of Rifts is humanities climb from the ashes. The CS mindset is a product of their enviroment. The attacks by the Federation of magic shaped the CS into what it is. It is what allowed a military dictatorship to take hold and it is what shaped their view toward non humans.

I consider the CS reaction understandable but far from rational.
A thought process such as the following can never be considered rational by any definition of the word: "That nation has committed an act of war against us, let us mercilessly attack and make enemies of every civilization on the continent whether they are affiliated with our enemy or not."

The CS gave in to insanity, those other nations did not. That is the sole thing that separates them.

[Lenwen]

The CS it's self is not evil but it's leaders are, their ideals and mass genocide is steamed from fears caused by the "great" Dunscun who attacked them with out cause or reason.

Couple things ..

1) - Genocide is evil .. period .. there is no way to defend Genocide .. and attempting to do so only proves some will do anything in order to "attempt" to make the one pushing the genocidal agenda look better. Flat out no way to defend it .. Genocide is evil period ..

2) - The CS are evil by default of their leaders.

Yes the leaders of the Coalition is evil, but lets take a closer look at this shall we ? If I (as an evil leader in the CS) order a Troop to line me up some D-Bee's .. for a straight up fire squad practice .. And he does so but his alignment is principaled .. and then I said join the fire squad and then ordered them to carry out the execution of innocent D-Bee's..

Every single CS member of that firing squad has a choice to make, either follow my order or face punishment .. And when they then carry out my order .. they are not looked at as being evil as they were "doing as commanded" by a superior officer.

Truth be told the being pulling that trigger is JUST as evil as the one giving that kill order .. if not MORE .. evil for actually having the contientous (sp?) free will to either not pull that trigger an face getting yelled at .. to pulling that trigger and being one of the "Good ol boys" ..

This is how I see it. This is why I consider anyone in such a predicement evil if not more evil then the leadership of the CS as they have a choice .. where as the evil leadership wants to cause death an everything .. the "good" soilder's only follow and obey .. out of self preservation which means they actively obey known evil ways .. which in an of itself is even MORE evil .. then the leader's they themselves serve ..

the Coalition is evil .. period.

[Killer Cyborg]

The CS it's self is not evil but it's leaders are, their ideals and mass genocide is steamed from fears caused by the "great" Dunscun who attacked them with out cause or reason.

Couple things ..

1) - Genocide is evil .. period .. there is no way to defend Genocide .. and attempting to do so only proves some will do anything in order to "attempt" to make the one pushing the genocidal agenda look better. Flat out no way to defend it .. Genocide is evil period ..

Yes.
But sometimes it's better than the alternatives.
It's kind of hard to live in harmony, or even truce, with races like the Mechanoids, Xiticix, and demons.

2) - The CS are evil by default of their leaders.

Yes the leaders of the Coalition is evil, but lets take a closer look at this shall we ? If I (as an evil leader in the CS) order a Troop to line me up some D-Bee's .. for a straight up fire squad practice .. And he does so but his alignment is principaled .. and then I said join the fire squad and then ordered them to carry out the execution of innocent D-Bee's..

Every single CS member of that firing squad has a choice to make, either follow my order or face punishment .. And when they then carry out my order .. they are not looked at as being evil as they were "doing as commanded" by a superior officer.

Truth be told the being pulling that trigger is JUST as evil as the one giving that kill order .. if not MORE .. evil for actually having the contientous (sp?) free will to either not pull that trigger an face getting yelled at .. to pulling that trigger and being one of the "Good ol boys" ..

You're meta-gaming.
Barring rare circumstances, CS grunts don't have the choice that you're presenting. They don't get to choose between following an order to kill innocent D-Bees and in doing the right thing.
It's not like their commanders are going to be telling them, "Listen up! Your orders are to needlessly massacre those innocent D-Bees that pose no threat!"
No, their orders will be to execute dangerous prisoners that are a threat to innocent human civilians.

Of course, the prisoners might look harmless, and they might claim that they're innocent... but Rifts is a world where not everything is as it appears.
That little girl with the funky forehead ridges might be a demon, feigning weakness and innocence until it gets the upper hand.
That rabbit she's holding might be the dragon that killed your parents.
That kid next to her might be a mind melter, capable of mind-controlling you into murdering the people who trust and count on you.
And you have no way of knowing which.

So your choice is really whether or not you trust your government, your commander, and your fellow soldiers.
And if you don't, you're probably not going to be in the military in the first place.

[taalismn]

I don't agree with the Coalition core leadership beliefs, but to wipe out the Coalition in whole would be a mistake...remove the CS, and you remove a powerfully organized buffer to a great many of North America's ills, as well as a core of talent and courage that would be needed if global civilization is to return to Rifts Earth. So wiping them all out isn't an option except by the most unenlightened(or screw-loose) minds.
The problem is, the original intent of survival of Humanity has been perverted by the leadership(something that can be said over the ages of a great many groups that started out with good ideas or genuine purpose at their beginning) to serve themselves in a number of circumstances. Frankly, I think, that if all the monsters and d-bees went away tomorrow, by the next day, Prosek would be figuring out which of the remaining human groups and individuals, both within and without the CS, he could do away with as threats to his power base. And there's a good number of those under him in the CS organization who are less subtle and more blatant in their intent to hang on to power at others' expense. The sort who actually run death camps, for instance, and make lampshades out of people's skins. The sort who NEED to be wiped out, but without killing the honestly desperate or misled people.

[Snow Hawk]

NGR treats d-bees as second class citizens and uses them as cannon fodder. Hardly a shining example.

No they are not a shining example but they are leaps and bounds ahead of the CS because interaction and tolerance will inevitably lead to growth

We have more info on the CS then all the other human powers combined. So this isn't a really fair comparison.

My asserition is that the CS policy toward non humans is one that was formed for a reason. It was based on unprovoked attacks by magic users and non humans. That is what makes it understandable. That is what makes it rational under the circumstances.

One of the themes of Rifts is humanities climb from the ashes. The CS mindset is a product of their enviroment. The attacks by the Federation of magic shaped the CS into what it is. It is what allowed a military dictatorship to take hold and it is what shaped their view toward non humans.[/quote]


I agree with all this conditionally the CS rule depends on ignorance, fear, the strait up evil and people that have had genuine bad experiences with D-Bees and magic users who then perpetuate that fear and hate that they suffered on to others.

Now some of my problems with the CS
They encourage illiteracy. Thats bad.
they are hypocrites I will explain psychics are ok but magic users are not, so it's ok to jump inside your head and read your mind, go ahead that is just fine but magic is bad. Psi-stokers are ok but magic users are not, it's ok to feed off our energy (best if pray is killed so the energy gets doubled) yet magic still bad. I could go on but I won't you get the idea.

FQ is at least pro eduction witch will lead to integration of D-Bees faster than the CS

and for all those reasons listed above and more I side with the Tundra rangers. They have claimed half of Canada as under their protection witch took some balls considering how small of a group they are. they don't work for any government they simply uphold the law and defend the innocent as they see fit. All thou they are a mostly human military group they welcome magic and D-Bees as long as they are down with the coz.

Tundra Rangers rock!!

[taalismn]

and for all those reasons listed above and more I side with the Tundra rangers. They have claimed half of Canada as under their protection witch took some balls considering how small of a group they are. they don't work for any government they simply uphold the law and defend the innocent as they see fit. All thou they are a mostly human military group they welcome magic and D-Bees as long as they are down with the coz.

Tundra Rangers rock!!

Also makes it easier for EVIL GMs to add shock value to ugly scenarios:
"Tundra Rangers! Yah! We're saved! They're the descendants of Canadian Mounties!"
"Uhm...Maybe the ones you've met in the past, but these guys are mountain cannibals."
"Oh...####"

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Both.

For every Joseph Prosek there's a Micander Drogue.

~ Josh

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I love the ngr new navy and free Quebec as examples of defenders of humanity

First off free Quebec is just as bad as the coalition , in good old free quebec if you aren't 100% human you better leave or you will be killed. But they stay in their own yard.

New navy , don't get me started on these clowns, they are a waste of space, just by the lack of what they haven't done.

Ngr funny how they fight enemies of two species , pretty easy to be on the moral high ground when your enemies are so clearly defined. Somehow if they were fighting the coalition's enemies I bet you see a different ngr, funny how only ngr uses du-rounds and the coalition doesn't use them.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I do Hate Yes or No questions to a questions they tend to get misleading answers when the questions is too simple.

That they are heros for humanity is propiganda.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I do Hate Yes or No questions to a questions they tend to get misleading answers when the questions is too simple.

That they are heros for humanity is propiganda.

A follower of the dragon I see, I offer wonder how a high moral good natured being could let another high moral good natured city state be destroyed by an evil vile human empire?

[taalismn]

"Silly Earthers. Your anger and anguish only season the meat all the more nicely when we devour you all!" :demon:

[Nether]

I see the Rifts earth like Israel and the holy ground they live on. In the past the holy ground was claimed by faction x, then got invaded and it was owned by faction y, ext ext until Israel now owns the land in modern day. Now all the groups from the past want thier land back and damn the person that tries to tell them otherwise. So who is right?

Same thing here, Earth got invaded and pretty much conquered by dbess. The humans want thier Earth back, it is thiers, always has been and they will do whatever it takes to get it back, no matter who "they" are.

Different human factions take different views of how to do this, some choose to integrate the peaceful ones and some choose to be only pro human like the CS. I myself can understand the CS view, they dont want to share Earth with anyone that isnt human. Well that is how they maybe started but now the CS leadership is all about keeping power and not sharing it. They dont care about the humans or the human cause that much, not when it endangers thier ultimate power base.

Lots of peeps associate the CS to the Nazis, and i have to agree. Seems like KS used them for a template in thier design.
The people arent evil, but the leadership has damned them as the people have no choice. There is no 'disobey' orders, you do your duty to your nation or you get shot. Propaganda is huge for CS, and they use it to lie to the populace, and not just a little. If citz get out of line to much the leadership remedies that with some ss police action and the troublemakers disappear.

As for morality of knowing if the leadership is working in humanities best interest, well many soldiers need to have faith and trust in them. Makes sense. But there is many soldiers that come to realize this isnt the case at all. Rangers i believe said had a high defection rate because they operate alot on the outside of the propaganda and realize things are being done for the wrong reasons, definately not the ones they have been raised on. Same with special forces.

Isnt it the US military that also says that if a soldier does not believe in the order ie executing prisoners or torture, then the soldier is accountable for this action and could be tried of war crimes for it. This is just speculation because i dont remember the details of it. Feel free to correct this.

So in the end the CS is a mixed bag, very evil leadership that is not interested in saving humanity, only its own power base. One step further as someone already mentioned, what about human mages? they are human, enough of them out there that are good, why are they excluded from humanity?

I also have to wonder why all the human nations in Rifts earth shuns magic users (human magic users). Wouldnt you want to learn, simulate and use the weapons that beat you against those invaders?

My 2c

Also anyone blabbing about meta gaming obviously didnt read the OP at all.

[Kovoston]

The Empire of Humanity was more evil.

[Nether]

I cant stand erin tarn for some reason, and sinse she is your good friend, invite her over so i can stick my psi sword thru her.

[MikelAmroni]

As someone who uses the CS a LOT, I both love and hate them - as was intended. The CS policies (from an overview perspective that we as readers have) are very evil. However, I've always likened CS propoganda to listening to any extremist political view (far right, far left) and listening only to their outlook and no other. They support their view with a skewed view of the facts. We are used to, in this day and age, a very wide variety of fact checking, independent verification, etc that just doesn't exist in Rifts. The CS, at least my own view of it, has a VERY active political talk show circuit who do the same sort of in depth drill down analysis of every major piece of news and every major announcement. The difference is that unlike the US, where there is an expectation of free press, in the CS, that is sorely lacking. You know what the government tells you and what you can prove (and you'd best be prepared to having the government censors telling you what can and can't be shown on TV due to national security). It's more like China or Iran or any other authoritarian regime. The government controls the media and while a little might slip through their fingers, nothing major goes out without some sort of response. Sometimes its a raid on those obvious malcontents who were in league with the Federation of Magic, sometimes it's a bit of backroom maneuvering involving a D-bee prostitute and a few conversations about what is and is not kosher to talk about, and sometimes its a random killing while they are on assignment down in the Burbs or the lower levels. Rifts is a dangerous world after all.

But while the overall regime is quite evil, the soldiers are all basically good people living through the horrors of war - while being at war with horrors. I have used the little girl who is actually a demon in disguise. Enough time that I have players questioning when I introduce a little girl that stands out from the background. That said I have also had that little girl be just the innocent victim she looks to be. How you deal with her presence defines you as a character. Do you gun her down on sight? Well you're certainly playing evil, or at best selfish. Do you try and figure out what the deal is, just in case it's actually an innocent? Then you're playing a good character, or the selfish character who actually cares about the plight of others. That said, your reaction to blowing away the that line of innocents, whether you follow the order or not, defines you as well. Do you hate yourself and pull the trigger anyway, fearing reprisal from your commanding office if you don't pull the trigger? So you're selfish. Or do you pull the trigger with glee and see if you can get in a few extra agonizing moments in their existence. Hmm, Diabolic eh? Do you shoot them quickly and efficiently because you just don't care about their existence, and only care about what gets you further towards your goals? Miscreant or anarchist, depending on how much joy you get from following those orders. Do you destroy the inhuman so you can protect the throngs of humanity who are even more helpless against a tide of creatures much more magically, psionically, and physically powerful than they are? Aberrant then. Do you ask if perhaps there is another way, trying to find out why they are being executed? Could be good or anarchist, depending on how deep you dig. A principled character, if they truly believe the propaganda, would pull the triger but question why the order had been given and try to follow up on it until they had an answer that they could live with, or slid down the alignment scale until they could justify it in their minds. After all many Aberrant aligned people started off highly principled folks. At some point they had to deal with the realities of working for an truly evil government, and decide how they could deal with that morally.

The CS make great villains, whether you are working for them or against them. Despite that, and sometimes because of that, they ARE the greatest heroes of humanity. The individual soldier is just a hayseed farm boy who took up a gun to protect his home and his people. War changes people, so no one questions when he comes back a bit more savage and hateful. He's been involved against some of the worst enemies humanity has ever seen. There is a great comic in one of the Rifters (don't remember which one or who wrote/illustrated it) which follows one guy justifying some horrible act on someone he killed, only to be killed by someone making the same EXACT mental argument. That, to me, is the heart of role-playing in Rifts, and it comes from part of the cyberpunk/post-apocalyptic feel of the early rifts book as well. An earlier poster said it right, everyone has blood on their hands - no one, not even the most principled guy in the world, is innocent, and no one can claim any sort of real moral high ground. That doesn't mean you don't try - that doesn't mean you don't find a way even. That just means that no matter what you do, there is ALWAYS an equally valid opposing ideology that has as much logical basis as your own. The CS philosophy is made valid by their environment. Magicians and d-bees and demons regularly try to take down the CS and put its people to the torch. Are they a relative minority? Absolutely, but using the US as a point of reference, just because only one in hundreds of thousands of muslims is an al queda terrorist, many pro-US muslims of middle eastern descent experienced MASSIVE amounts of prejudice and outright hate and violence from reactionaries. Whole countries, whose major crime was not being tough enough on elements within their own ideology, were made accountable (I don't just mean Afghanistan here, though they are definitely the poster child for it). I'm not trying to debate the right or wrong of all of the post 9/11 chain of events, but it is a useful tool in seeing how the CS views the world after the Federation of Magic assault on Chi Town. The CS was scared and reacted as people who are scared do - they turned to the strongest and most charismatic leaders who presented a clear plan. Enter the Proseks. And the people followed the plan because it was presented in clear terms of fear and right and wrong. The underlying agenda doesn't matter, because safety in an unsafe world is what the masses truly desire.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I love the ngr new navy and free Quebec as examples of defenders of humanity

First off free Quebec is just as bad as the coalition , in good old free quebec if you aren't 100% human you better leave or you will be killed. But they stay in their own yard.

New navy , don't get me started on these clowns, they are a waste of space, just by the lack of what they haven't done.

Ngr funny how they fight enemies of two species , pretty easy to be on the moral high ground when your enemies are so clearly defined. Somehow if they were fighting the coalition's enemies I bet you see a different ngr, funny how only ngr uses du-rounds and the coalition doesn't use them.

Actually the Free Quebec Military has issues several plans that allow D-Bees into the surrounding area to live. It helps them keep a better defense and keeps a tight wall between them and the coalition; an the giant alien bugs.

what page is this plan on? because page 33 and 148 of wb 22 paints a different picture

[rat_bastard]

They are genocidal evil jerks with a losing strategy.

[taalismn]

They are genocidal evil jerks with a losing strategy.

Short term, killing off your enemies through overwhelming firepower, hot blood, and backs-to-the-wall survival-mode desperation works.
Long term, scaring lots of folks and dissing off lots of others with unknown capabilities, making them unite against you? Not so great.

[Killer Cyborg]

They are genocidal evil jerks with a losing strategy.

Sitting Bull?

[taalismn]

They are genocidal evil jerks with a losing strategy.

Sitting Bull?

"Captain Custer? You have lost the toss! You will huddle in a small group at the bottom of this hill while every indian in the world rides down on top of you."

[JuliusCreed]

As someone who uses the CS a LOT, I both love and hate them - as was intended. The CS policies (from an overview perspective that we as readers have) are very evil. However, I've always likened CS propoganda to listening to any extremist political view (far right, far left) and listening only to their outlook and no other. They support their view with a skewed view of the facts. We are used to, in this day and age, a very wide variety of fact checking, independent verification, etc that just doesn't exist in Rifts. The CS, at least my own view of it, has a VERY active political talk show circuit who do the same sort of in depth drill down analysis of every major piece of news and every major announcement. The difference is that unlike the US, where there is an expectation of free press, in the CS, that is sorely lacking. You know what the government tells you and what you can prove (and you'd best be prepared to having the government censors telling you what can and can't be shown on TV due to national security). It's more like China or Iran or any other authoritarian regime. The government controls the media and while a little might slip through their fingers, nothing major goes out without some sort of response. Sometimes its a raid on those obvious malcontents who were in league with the Federation of Magic, sometimes it's a bit of backroom maneuvering involving a D-bee prostitute and a few conversations about what is and is not kosher to talk about, and sometimes its a random killing while they are on assignment down in the Burbs or the lower levels. Rifts is a dangerous world after all.

But while the overall regime is quite evil, the soldiers are all basically good people living through the horrors of war - while being at war with horrors. I have used the little girl who is actually a demon in disguise. Enough time that I have players questioning when I introduce a little girl that stands out from the background. That said I have also had that little girl be just the innocent victim she looks to be. How you deal with her presence defines you as a character. Do you gun her down on sight? Well you're certainly playing evil, or at best selfish. Do you try and figure out what the deal is, just in case it's actually an innocent? Then you're playing a good character, or the selfish character who actually cares about the plight of others. That said, your reaction to blowing away the that line of innocents, whether you follow the order or not, defines you as well. Do you hate yourself and pull the trigger anyway, fearing reprisal from your commanding office if you don't pull the trigger? So you're selfish. Or do you pull the trigger with glee and see if you can get in a few extra agonizing moments in their existence. Hmm, Diabolic eh? Do you shoot them quickly and efficiently because you just don't care about their existence, and only care about what gets you further towards your goals? Miscreant or anarchist, depending on how much joy you get from following those orders. Do you destroy the inhuman so you can protect the throngs of humanity who are even more helpless against a tide of creatures much more magically, psionically, and physically powerful than they are? Aberrant then. Do you ask if perhaps there is another way, trying to find out why they are being executed? Could be good or anarchist, depending on how deep you dig. A principled character, if they truly believe the propaganda, would pull the triger but question why the order had been given and try to follow up on it until they had an answer that they could live with, or slid down the alignment scale until they could justify it in their minds. After all many Aberrant aligned people started off highly principled folks. At some point they had to deal with the realities of working for an truly evil government, and decide how they could deal with that morally.

The CS make great villains, whether you are working for them or against them. Despite that, and sometimes because of that, they ARE the greatest heroes of humanity. The individual soldier is just a hayseed farm boy who took up a gun to protect his home and his people. War changes people, so no one questions when he comes back a bit more savage and hateful. He's been involved against some of the worst enemies humanity has ever seen. There is a great comic in one of the Rifters (don't remember which one or who wrote/illustrated it) which follows one guy justifying some horrible act on someone he killed, only to be killed by someone making the same EXACT mental argument. That, to me, is the heart of role-playing in Rifts, and it comes from part of the cyberpunk/post-apocalyptic feel of the early rifts book as well. An earlier poster said it right, everyone has blood on their hands - no one, not even the most principled guy in the world, is innocent, and no one can claim any sort of real moral high ground. That doesn't mean you don't try - that doesn't mean you don't find a way even. That just means that no matter what you do, there is ALWAYS an equally valid opposing ideology that has as much logical basis as your own. The CS philosophy is made valid by their environment. Magicians and d-bees and demons regularly try to take down the CS and put its people to the torch. Are they a relative minority? Absolutely, but using the US as a point of reference, just because only one in hundreds of thousands of muslims is an al queda terrorist, many pro-US muslims of middle eastern descent experienced MASSIVE amounts of prejudice and outright hate and violence from reactionaries. Whole countries, whose major crime was not being tough enough on elements within their own ideology, were made accountable (I don't just mean Afghanistan here, though they are definitely the poster child for it). I'm not trying to debate the right or wrong of all of the post 9/11 chain of events, but it is a useful tool in seeing how the CS views the world after the Federation of Magic assault on Chi Town. The CS was scared and reacted as people who are scared do - they turned to the strongest and most charismatic leaders who presented a clear plan. Enter the Proseks. And the people followed the plan because it was presented in clear terms of fear and right and wrong. The underlying agenda doesn't matter, because safety in an unsafe world is what the masses truly desire.

I couldn't have said it better myself

[Hystrix]

Both and neither.

Sorry, but they are intended to be ambiguous and heavily dependent one's point of view.

Agree with Mack.

The CS should be a gray area. It's kind of a relitive thing. In our day and age, a nation like the CS would be considred "evil"...hands down.

However, when compared with Splugorth, Nxla, the Lord of the Deep, Vampires, Demon, Deevils, Chinese Demons, Gargoyals, Brodkil, Horune...just to name a few, the CS is definatly a gray area...

[Snow Hawk]

Both and neither.

Sorry, but they are intended to be ambiguous and heavily dependent one's point of view.

Agree with Mack.

The CS should be a gray area. It's kind of a relitive thing. In our day and age, a nation like the CS would be considred "evil"...hands down.

However, when compared with Splugorth, Nxla, the Lord of the Deep, Vampires, Demon, Deevils, Chinese Demons, Gargoyals, Brodkil, Horune...just to name a few, the CS is definatly a gray area...

For the random CS soldier or the average CS citizen it might be a gray area and that is fun to role-play but to the fact the CS are an evil nation the fact that there are a lot of evil nations dose not change the first fact

[Hystrix]

For the random CS soldier or the average CS citizen it might be a gray area and that is fun to role-play but to the fact the CS are an evil nation the fact that there are a lot of evil nations dose not change the first fact

Evil nations? Ok Vampires are evil as a race (undead race, but race none the less). As are Splugorth, Demons, Deevils, Brodkil, and every other race of demons, and the like on Rifts Earth..of which there are many. The point you are missing is that compared to these other the CS IS a gray area. That's textbook canon right there.

[Gamer]

I'd rather be in that gray area -with the CS- than with the vampires, the splugorth, demons and deevils.

[Nightmask]

For the random CS soldier or the average CS citizen it might be a gray area and that is fun to role-play but to the fact the CS are an evil nation the fact that there are a lot of evil nations dose not change the first fact

Evil nations? Ok Vampires are evil as a race (undead race, but race none the less). As are Splugorth, Demons, Deevils, Brodkil, and every other race of demons, and the like on Rifts Earth..of which there are many. The point you are missing is that compared to these other the CS IS a gray area. That's textbook canon right there.

Sorry but you really can't go comparing them like that, it just comes off as an attempt to make them look acceptable by tossing out purely evil sorts and go 'see they aren't that bad just look at what those guys over there do'. The CS operates more like the Mechanoids, they have a 'eliminate all that is not of the CS' policy that the general population believes in and supports, which firmly places the CS in the high evil category alongside all the rest of the evil races like the Splugorth.

[Hystrix]

For the random CS soldier or the average CS citizen it might be a gray area and that is fun to role-play but to the fact the CS are an evil nation the fact that there are a lot of evil nations dose not change the first fact

Evil nations? Ok Vampires are evil as a race (undead race, but race none the less). As are Splugorth, Demons, Deevils, Brodkil, and every other race of demons, and the like on Rifts Earth..of which there are many. The point you are missing is that compared to these other the CS IS a gray area. That's textbook canon right there.

Sorry but you really can't go comparing them like that, it just comes off as an attempt to make them look acceptable by tossing out purely evil sorts and go 'see they aren't that bad just look at what those guys over there do'. The CS operates more like the Mechanoids, they have a 'eliminate all that is not of the CS' policy that the general population believes in and supports, which firmly places the CS in the high evil category alongside all the rest of the evil races like the Splugorth.

No it dosn't. The Splugorth don't need to enslave people to survive, they choose to do so. The CS, while misguided, has some pretty justifiable paranoia. See the attack by the Federation of Magic in 12 PA. I swear people who say "I'd never be like that" would be the first ones to act in this way. Taking a moral high ground is great...when you never have to back it up...

Be that as it may, to compare the CS to...every group I've mentioned is silly to say the least.

[Nightmask]

For the random CS soldier or the average CS citizen it might be a gray area and that is fun to role-play but to the fact the CS are an evil nation the fact that there are a lot of evil nations dose not change the first fact

Evil nations? Ok Vampires are evil as a race (undead race, but race none the less). As are Splugorth, Demons, Deevils, Brodkil, and every other race of demons, and the like on Rifts Earth..of which there are many. The point you are missing is that compared to these other the CS IS a gray area. That's textbook canon right there.

Sorry but you really can't go comparing them like that, it just comes off as an attempt to make them look acceptable by tossing out purely evil sorts and go 'see they aren't that bad just look at what those guys over there do'. The CS operates more like the Mechanoids, they have a 'eliminate all that is not of the CS' policy that the general population believes in and supports, which firmly places the CS in the high evil category alongside all the rest of the evil races like the Splugorth.

No it dosn't. The Splugorth don't need to enslave people to survive, they choose to do so. The CS, while misguided, has some pretty justifiable paranoia. See the attack by the Federation of Magic in 12 PA. I swear people who say "I'd never be like that" would be the first ones to act in this way. Taking a moral high ground is great...when you never have to back it up...

Be that as it may, to compare the CS to...every group I've mentioned is silly to say the least.

Sorry but the CS doesn't need to kill everything that's not a CS citizen either and it's pretty silly to suggest that they've anything justifiable about such a position. If the US had said 'well the Japanese attacked us we need to kill everyone else in the world to be safe' during WWII it would be rightly considered a monster far worse than Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan, and the CS has no more justification for holding such a position either. It just makes them indefensibly evil.

[Hystrix]

For the random CS soldier or the average CS citizen it might be a gray area and that is fun to role-play but to the fact the CS are an evil nation the fact that there are a lot of evil nations dose not change the first fact

Evil nations? Ok Vampires are evil as a race (undead race, but race none the less). As are Splugorth, Demons, Deevils, Brodkil, and every other race of demons, and the like on Rifts Earth..of which there are many. The point you are missing is that compared to these other the CS IS a gray area. That's textbook canon right there.

Sorry but you really can't go comparing them like that, it just comes off as an attempt to make them look acceptable by tossing out purely evil sorts and go 'see they aren't that bad just look at what those guys over there do'. The CS operates more like the Mechanoids, they have a 'eliminate all that is not of the CS' policy that the general population believes in and supports, which firmly places the CS in the high evil category alongside all the rest of the evil races like the Splugorth.

No it dosn't. The Splugorth don't need to enslave people to survive, they choose to do so. The CS, while misguided, has some pretty justifiable paranoia. See the attack by the Federation of Magic in 12 PA. I swear people who say "I'd never be like that" would be the first ones to act in this way. Taking a moral high ground is great...when you never have to back it up...

Be that as it may, to compare the CS to...every group I've mentioned is silly to say the least.

Sorry but the CS doesn't need to kill everything that's not a CS citizen either and it's pretty silly to suggest that they've anything justifiable about such a position. If the US had said 'well the Japanese attacked us we need to kill everyone else in the world to be safe' during WWII it would be rightly considered a monster far worse than Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan, and the CS has no more justification for holding such a position either. It just makes them indefensibly evil.

Is everything outside CS territory dead? A lot could be if they wanted it so. Again, you are over inflating the facts...

[Nightmask]

Sorry but the CS doesn't need to kill everything that's not a CS citizen either and it's pretty silly to suggest that they've anything justifiable about such a position. If the US had said 'well the Japanese attacked us we need to kill everyone else in the world to be safe' during WWII it would be rightly considered a monster far worse than Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan, and the CS has no more justification for holding such a position either. It just makes them indefensibly evil.

Is everything outside CS territory dead? A lot could be if they wanted it so. Again, you are over inflating the facts...

No over-inflating involved, just a lot of effort to downplay what the CS actually is. Just because you haven't killed everyone yet doesn't mean your policy of killing everyone else isn't as bad as it actually is because 'well we didn't kill you yet see we're good guys'. The Nazis hadn't killed all the Jews yet yet no one outside of Holocaust deniers attempt to downplay the monstrous nature of their plan. Just because the CS hasn't killed everyone else yet doesn't make them less evil because their intent is identical to that of the Mechanoids (actually it's worse since the Mechanoids are fine with leaving non-humanoids alone as long as they don't protect humanoids, the CS wants to kill everyone not a CS human).

[Hystrix]

Sorry but the CS doesn't need to kill everything that's not a CS citizen either and it's pretty silly to suggest that they've anything justifiable about such a position. If the US had said 'well the Japanese attacked us we need to kill everyone else in the world to be safe' during WWII it would be rightly considered a monster far worse than Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan, and the CS has no more justification for holding such a position either. It just makes them indefensibly evil.

Is everything outside CS territory dead? A lot could be if they wanted it so. Again, you are over inflating the facts...

No over-inflating involved, just a lot of effort to downplay what the CS actually is. Just because you haven't killed everyone yet doesn't mean your policy of killing everyone else isn't as bad as it actually is because 'well we didn't kill you yet see we're good guys'. The Nazis hadn't killed all the Jews yet yet no one outside of Holocaust deniers attempt to downplay the monstrous nature of their plan. Just because the CS hasn't killed everyone else yet doesn't make them less evil because their intent is identical to that of the Mechanoids (actually it's worse since the Mechanoids are fine with leaving non-humanoids alone as long as they don't protect humanoids, the CS wants to kill everyone not a CS human).

And accept for cases where the CS intentionally leaves D-bees along, you have a great point. But they do. The Burbs is a great example. The CS isn't using a scorched Earth tactic. It's not how they are written.

[Nightmask]

Sorry but the CS doesn't need to kill everything that's not a CS citizen either and it's pretty silly to suggest that they've anything justifiable about such a position. If the US had said 'well the Japanese attacked us we need to kill everyone else in the world to be safe' during WWII it would be rightly considered a monster far worse than Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan, and the CS has no more justification for holding such a position either. It just makes them indefensibly evil.

Is everything outside CS territory dead? A lot could be if they wanted it so. Again, you are over inflating the facts...

No over-inflating involved, just a lot of effort to downplay what the CS actually is. Just because you haven't killed everyone yet doesn't mean your policy of killing everyone else isn't as bad as it actually is because 'well we didn't kill you yet see we're good guys'. The Nazis hadn't killed all the Jews yet yet no one outside of Holocaust deniers attempt to downplay the monstrous nature of their plan. Just because the CS hasn't killed everyone else yet doesn't make them less evil because their intent is identical to that of the Mechanoids (actually it's worse since the Mechanoids are fine with leaving non-humanoids alone as long as they don't protect humanoids, the CS wants to kill everyone not a CS human).

And accept for cases where the CS intentionally leaves D-bees along, you have a great point. But they do. The Burbs is a great example. The CS isn't using a scorched Earth tactic. It's not how they are written.

You need to reread what's written then, as the CS does in fact do scorched Earth in the Burbs from time to time and they can generally kill and rape and what-not as they please (and they do). They leave the Burbs up in general as bait, since the humans in them are considered expendable so that they can lure in aliens and discover if they're agents of other groups or loners, it has nothing to do with the CS being benevolent. It isn't. It has nothing to do with them not really being evil, they are. It's just a decoy used as a trap and buffer zone to protect against aliens. Just as Free Quebec operates that one town secretly in order to use it to monitor the activities of various groups and individuals around and in FQ space. It's not because they want to be helping non-members but as a means of gathering intelligence to use against non-members that might pose a threat.