Where is your game?

[Seto Kaiba]

So it's been a few years since the books came out and to a certain extent we can run all eras. What are you doing with your game?

Hm... y'know, despite having all of the "1st Edition" Robotech books and having had the chance to look over the RTSC core book in some detail, I've never run a Robotech game or even tried to. At present, I'm involved in two Macross RPGs... planning a Macross Frontier game and as a player in a Macross VF-X2-era game, though neither game is using the Palladium system (in accordance with Palladium's wishes on that note). I'm tossing around the idea of running a game with the heavily corrected version of the old Macross II RPG that I put together based on my recently-completed research into the OVA's official continuity, mecha specs, etc., but I haven't gotten around to finding players for that yet... probably gonna have to iron out a few balance issues in medias res, but on balance that should at least be entertaining.


Never tried a RIFTS setting either... mostly because I've never had any interest in RIFTS. I think the closest we've ever come to doing something like that was a brief and ill-advised set of sessions where the Macross II game I ran did a crossover with a pseudo-Robotech II: the Sentinels game run by a friend. Lots of friction between the two groups during the handful of sessions that lasted, mostly because the Macross II game was mostly strictly following the show and canon setting, while the Robotech group had a lot of customized mecha "borrowed" from Macross and containing stuff taken from other settings such as Gundam Wing, which were uniformly overpowered to the point of breaking the game.

[jaymz]

Lots of friction between the two groups during the handful of sessions that lasted, mostly because the Macross II game was mostly strictly following the show and canon setting, while the Robotech group had a lot of customized mecha "borrowed" from Macross and containing stuff taken from other settings such as Gundam Wing, which were uniformly overpowered to the point of breaking the game.

I hate when I come across stuff that starts to look cool and useful until I look at the game stats and just shake my head because it is so munchkin......

Right now we are playing a Macross II game more or less using the RPG (The GM has modified some stuff but that is GM's caveat) and so far it ihas been interesting as he also applied elements of the "true" Macross continuity (colonies etc). He is also introducing small elements from otehr games/settings (Mechanoids, Rifts, Transformers) and he has a good handle on how to keep it balanced to a degree (as in NOT munchkin) so it has been fun thus far. Deadly but fun

[Seto Kaiba]

I hate when I come across stuff that starts to look cool and useful until I look at the game stats and just shake my head because it is so munchkin......

Likewise... tho in that case, the problem was caused by letting the players design their own custom mecha without imposing any kind of restrictions on what they could use for customization purposes or how far they could buff their mecha's stats by doing so. So they kind of crossed over from "real robot" to Gundam Wing-style nigh-invincible uber mecha, which broke the combat so badly that it took all the challenge and enjoyment out of it for the Macross II-side players who were running stock Valkyrie II's. That's why I haven't attempted to mix settings again... just gonna stick to the established settings for the canon universes of the games that I'm working on. (I contemplated it briefly not too long ago, in order to get a suitable main mecha for an anti-gov't rebel faction, but then Macross's creators cheerfully dropped a canon one right in my lap)

he also applied elements of the "true" Macross continuity (colonies etc).

Macross II's continuity is every bit as "true" as the currently ongoing one... it had something like 60 sheets in the Macross Chronicle (not counting glossary entries), and for the first time in ages they're actually doing new merch for it. Also, that there aren't colonies in Macross II's continuity is a common misconception caused by poor access to the material over the years.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Also, that there aren't colonies in Macross II's continuity is a common misconception caused by poor access to the material over the years.

Yep, the Neld Space Fleet Incident started when the colony ship Million Stars (IIRC) was attacked outside the solar system. That's rather conclusive, right there, that there are colonies in the Macross II timeline.

Its the same absurd situation as stating there were no colonies Robotech (I guess the line 'We were all born out in deep space on a Robotech ship means...what...nothing?). Heck, even The Masters War novelizations mentions colonies on the Moon(!), in orbit and Mars. The Sentinels RPG mentions colonization efforts in The Masters galaxy by the REF.

[Seto Kaiba]

Also, that there aren't colonies in Macross II's continuity is a common misconception caused by poor access to the material over the years.

Yep, the Neld Space Fleet Incident started when the colony ship Million Stars (IIRC) was attacked outside the solar system. That's rather conclusive, right there, that there are colonies in the Macross II timeline.

Eh, not quite... the so-called "Neld Fleet Crisis" and the Million Star incident are two totally separate events in Macross II's "parallel world" continuity, around 18 years apart. The attack on the colony ship Million Star was what started a war with a rogue Zentradi fleet in 2054, which lasted most of the year. The other noteworthy colony ship that gets named in the official setting materials is the Megaroad-01 (obviously).

Its the same absurd situation as stating there were no colonies Robotech (I guess the line 'We were all born out in deep space on a Robotech ship means...what...nothing?).[ Heck, even The Masters War novelizations mentions colonies on the Moon(!), in orbit and Mars. The Sentinels RPG mentions colonization efforts in The Masters galaxy by the REF.

's kind of a gray area... every time I've been asked about that particular line, I've read it as literally as possible. Born on a ship in deep space doesn't necessarily entail a colony ship, it could just as easily mean a military ship with (or without) a civilian presence... after all, the soldiers have to do something to keep themselves entertained, and on a longer voyage like the Pioneer mission it's pretty much inevitable. (I'm thinking stuff like the Enterprise-D, etc.) Neither the novels nor the old RPGs were really bound to follow what's canon either, which just confuses the matter further. I've never run a RT game, so I've never bothered to decide one way or the other. XD

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Eh, not quite... the so-called "Neld Fleet Crisis" and the Million Star incident are two totally separate events in Macross II's "parallel world" continuity, around 18 years apart. The attack on the colony ship Million Star was what started a war with a rogue Zentradi fleet in 2054, which lasted most of the year.

Oh, oops.

[Pouncer]

My game is set in and about the colony worlds a few months before the final reclamation mission. The team has plenty of trouble on their hands dealing with an anti-military government movement, several new alien first contacts (Marduk and Mechanoids) and a spy in their midst (one of the players in fact, he's always good for a little RP inventiveness).

POUNCER

[Jockitch74]

As far as I know, Macross was originally supposed to be a sequal of sorts to Macross: 2012, but then was de-canonized as a different universe.

As Jaymz mentioned, which it's me running the campaign I've melded Macross 2 back into the official Macross continuity. Seems to be working decently so far. But I've added some other stuff to spice it up a bit

[Seto Kaiba]

As far as I know, Macross was originally supposed to be a sequal of sorts to Macross: 2012, but then was de-canonized as a different universe.

No, not quite... the Macross II: Lovers Again OVA was always intended to be (and is) a "far future" direct sequel to Macross: Do You Remember Love?. The original plan was to make it 300 years in the future, but they ramped it back to ~80 during production and threw in a few date-related in-jokes regarding Macross II having been made to commemorate the 10th Anniversary of the original series. Being made an alternate universe isn't the same as being made non-canon, the whole Macross II continuity was made a "parallel world" because its timeline conflicted with the new shows (Macross Plus and Macross 7) produced after Shoji Kawamori rejoined the franchise.

Macross: Flashback 2012 was actually an epilogue of sorts for the original Macross TV series. The OVA's original animation was based on material that was originally intended to be the ending of the show's final episode (#36 "Farewell to Tenderness"), but was cut due to airtime constraints in the storyboard phase.

As Jaymz mentioned, which it's me running the campaign I've melded Macross 2 back into the official Macross continuity. Seems to be working decently so far. But I've added some other stuff to spice it up a bit

Gotta admit, that has me kind of confused... since there's a pretty big performance disparity between the Macross II mecha and ones in the main timeline's later shows, and the M2 Valkyries have a bunch of tech the main timeline ones don't, and vice versa. How'd you fit those two together?

[jaymz]

Gotta admit, that has me kind of confused... since there's a pretty big performance disparity between the Macross II mecha and ones in the main timeline's later shows, and the M2 Valkyries have a bunch of tech the main timeline ones don't, and vice versa. How'd you fit those two together?

For game purposes it isnt that hard to do really. It just amatter of changing the game stats accordingly.

[jaymz]

The Macross 2 VF's are too much powerfull to use to for a Robotech timeline campaign,you only have to take a look on the SAP system and the AAB drones,and you can reach in a single attack with a level 4 pilot near a thousand(1000)points of damage in ONE single attack from a VF-2SS with the SAP and three(39) AAB's,using only the main cannon from the SAP and not including missiles for that attack.
There isn't any VF-1 series veritech which could achieve such amount of damage and of course don't forget the armor values.

One problem J. The standard VF-2SS is not that much better than the standard VF-1 game stat wise. Teh difference is as you said, the extras added to it in teh way of the SAP system and the AAB's. Also keep in mind in M2 as in Robotech, you ARE in fact outnumbered pretty much ALL of the time. Also in M2 you are as likel yot engage warships are you are mecha. There is a reason you are supposed to be able to do 1000 points of damage using the AAB's. Anything less when facing warships woudl be suicide.

[Seto Kaiba]

The Macross 2 VF's are too much powerfull to use to for a Robotech timeline campaign [...]
There isn't any VF-1 series veritech which could achieve such amount of damage and of course don't forget the armor values.

Eh... the disparity isn't that bad, though in all honesty it's nowhere near as bad as it should be if the game stats were an accurate reflection of the canon stats (the way they are in my "corrected" version). The stat creep I've heard complaints about in the new edition of the RT RPG should mitigate that problem somewhat as well.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

The stat creep I've heard complaints about in the new edition of the RT RPG should mitigate that problem somewhat as well.

Only partially. The problem comes down to the fact that new edition of the Robotech RPG make no sense whatsoever. There are some questionable decisions. To whit:

Invid Enforcer - Main Body: 390 - Robotic PS: 50 - Heat Cannons: 2d6x10 for a heavy blast - 6D6 Power Punch (x2 attacks) - +2/+3 dodge (ground/flying)
Red Bioroid Commander (Zor Type) - Main Body 155 - Robotic PS: 36 Disc Blaster: 2D4x10 per 5-rd blast - 4D6 Power Punch (x2 attacks) - +3 Dodge/+5 Dodge w/Sled

I don't know how the hell these stats were arrived at, but they make absolutely NO sense whatsoever. You would literally be better off flipping them, giving the Bioroid all but the the Enforcer's Dodge stat.

We SEE a Red Bioroid hoist a 26 metric ton Spartas hovertank off the ground in Half Moon. We see that same Bioroid punch a nearly man-sized hole in the armour plated hull of one of their multipurpose transports. This is in no way possible (even with max damage and a natural 20) in the game in either case.

[jedi078]

I've gone and fixed most of the stuff from the new books.

I am currently running three Robotech games online, all of which use the new books. One set in 2042 utilizing the Return of the Masters setting. Another set in 2014 Africa. The last is an all Zent game set in 2009, where the players are doing behind the scenics stuff.

[Sgt Anjay]

I ran a pre-2nd Robotech War Southern Cross special forces campaign. The PCs were a team of operatives from different branches who helped take out terrorists, insurgents, high-tech bandits, cultists, and a corrupt politician with a general in his back pocket. It was pretty low-scale; the heaviest action tended to be power-armor on power-armor, or in one case power-armor on tanks and APCs. Almost more of a N&S or Recon game with SC equipment. Good fun.

[jedi078]

I ran a pre-2nd Robotech War Southern Cross special forces campaign. The PCs were a team of operatives from different branches who helped take out terrorists, insurgents, high-tech bandits, cultists, and a corrupt politician with a general in his back pocket. It was pretty low-scale; the heaviest action tended to be power-armor on power-armor, or in one case power-armor on tanks and APCs. Almost more of a N&S or Recon game with SC equipment. Good fun.

I actually have four/five (two of the groups are together right now) PC groups running around various parts of Africa in my 2014 PBP game. One group is comprised of two GMP agents, who will be doing some low intensity stuff.

[Jockitch74]

As far as I know, Macross was originally supposed to be a sequal of sorts to Macross: 2012, but then was de-canonized as a different universe.

No, not quite... the Macross II: Lovers Again OVA was always intended to be (and is) a "far future" direct sequel to Macross: Do You Remember Love?. The original plan was to make it 300 years in the future, but they ramped it back to ~80 during production and threw in a few date-related in-jokes regarding Macross II having been made to commemorate the 10th Anniversary of the original series. Being made an alternate universe isn't the same as being made non-canon, the whole Macross II continuity was made a "parallel world" because its timeline conflicted with the new shows (Macross Plus and Macross 7) produced after Shoji Kawamori rejoined the franchise.

Macross: Flashback 2012 was actually an epilogue of sorts for the original Macross TV series. The OVA's original animation was based on material that was originally intended to be the ending of the show's final episode (#36 "Farewell to Tenderness"), but was cut due to airtime constraints in the storyboard phase.

As Jaymz mentioned, which it's me running the campaign I've melded Macross 2 back into the official Macross continuity. Seems to be working decently so far. But I've added some other stuff to spice it up a bit

Gotta admit, that has me kind of confused... since there's a pretty big performance disparity between the Macross II mecha and ones in the main timeline's later shows, and the M2 Valkyries have a bunch of tech the main timeline ones don't, and vice versa. How'd you fit those two together?

It really isn't that hard to come up with ideas how to add everything together to make a viable and vibrant gaming world. Even with the tech differences it's easy enough to work it all.

For example... M2 is roughly 30 years after Frontier right? So that leaves lots of room to add in new tech, new colonies and so forth. It's not a purely Macross game, since it has elements of other things thrown in such as some of the combat robots from Rifts. Some of them are great for colony defence or anti-UN and that sort of thing. Also, added many of the races from Manhunter to give it a little more population diversity.

As far as the VFs... I don't think it's a far stretch (aleast to me) to see the link between M2 and Frontiers. For example, the VF-2ss could be a direct decendant of the vf-25. Both heavily use fastpacks and are main line fighters (Yes, I know the VF-25 is originally used with the SMS until later). The VA-1MS could be the decendant of the VF-19 or 22 with built in weapon systems and so forth. Even with the destroids fading out between M+ and M7, they do bring them back to a certain degree with the Chyeanne 2 and Destroid Work in Frontiers.

Either way, seem to be working out decently and my players don't seem to have any complaints.... yet

[jaymz]

As far as I know, Macross was originally supposed to be a sequal of sorts to Macross: 2012, but then was de-canonized as a different universe.

No, not quite... the Macross II: Lovers Again OVA was always intended to be (and is) a "far future" direct sequel to Macross: Do You Remember Love?. The original plan was to make it 300 years in the future, but they ramped it back to ~80 during production and threw in a few date-related in-jokes regarding Macross II having been made to commemorate the 10th Anniversary of the original series. Being made an alternate universe isn't the same as being made non-canon, the whole Macross II continuity was made a "parallel world" because its timeline conflicted with the new shows (Macross Plus and Macross 7) produced after Shoji Kawamori rejoined the franchise.

Macross: Flashback 2012 was actually an epilogue of sorts for the original Macross TV series. The OVA's original animation was based on material that was originally intended to be the ending of the show's final episode (#36 "Farewell to Tenderness"), but was cut due to airtime constraints in the storyboard phase.

As Jaymz mentioned, which it's me running the campaign I've melded Macross 2 back into the official Macross continuity. Seems to be working decently so far. But I've added some other stuff to spice it up a bit

Gotta admit, that has me kind of confused... since there's a pretty big performance disparity between the Macross II mecha and ones in the main timeline's later shows, and the M2 Valkyries have a bunch of tech the main timeline ones don't, and vice versa. How'd you fit those two together?

It really isn't that hard to come up with ideas how to add everything together to make a viable and vibrant gaming world. Even with the tech differences it's easy enough to work it all.

For example... M2 is roughly 30 years after Frontier right? So that leaves lots of room to add in new tech, new colonies and so forth. It's not a purely Macross game, since it has elements of other things thrown in such as some of the combat robots from Rifts. Some of them are great for colony defence or anti-UN and that sort of thing. Also, added many of the races from Manhunter to give it a little more population diversity.

As far as the VFs... I don't think it's a far stretch (aleast to me) to see the link between M2 and Frontiers. For example, the VF-2ss could be a direct decendant of the vf-25. Both heavily use fastpacks and are main line fighters (Yes, I know the VF-25 is originally used with the SMS until later). The VA-1MS could be the decendant of the VF-19 or 22 with built in weapon systems and so forth. Even with the destroids fading out between M+ and M7, they do bring them back to a certain degree with the Chyeanne 2 and Destroid Work in Frontiers.

Either way, seem to be working out decently and my players don't seem to have any complaints.... yet

Damn female power armour drones.....

[ShadowLogan]

The stat creep I've heard complaints about in the new edition of the RT RPG should mitigate that problem somewhat as well.

Only partially. The problem comes down to the fact that new edition of the Robotech RPG make no sense whatsoever. There are some questionable decisions. To whit:

Invid Enforcer - Main Body: 390 - Robotic PS: 50 - Heat Cannons: 2d6x10 for a heavy blast - 6D6 Power Punch (x2 attacks) - +2/+3 dodge (ground/flying)
Red Bioroid Commander (Zor Type) - Main Body 155 - Robotic PS: 36 Disc Blaster: 2D4x10 per 5-rd blast - 4D6 Power Punch (x2 attacks) - +3 Dodge/+5 Dodge w/Sled

I don't know how the hell these stats were arrived at, but they make absolutely NO sense whatsoever. You would literally be better off flipping them, giving the Bioroid all but the the Enforcer's Dodge stat.

We SEE a Red Bioroid hoist a 26 metric ton Spartas hovertank off the ground in Half Moon. We see that same Bioroid punch a nearly man-sized hole in the armour plated hull of one of their multipurpose transports. This is in no way possible (even with max damage and a natural 20) in the game in either case.

This seems like the most recent post along this side topic so I'll use this as a jump in point.

Ignoring the PS for VHT lifting from the show for the moment as I really have no explanation for that. It can probably be fixed by adjusting the PS lift/carry multiplier values for Giant Robots. The question was recently brought up in the Rifts forum in their context. So someone wasn't doing thier homework in this case.

The specific Punch incident brings to mind the GM Note for SDC on page 6 of the original RT RPG concerning concerning damage to SDC objects (I don't see why it would not apply to MDC). Basically the Bioroid punches does damage and puts a hole into the hull, even though the stats do not support the hull being destroyed (but do support that it was damaged in some way to a very small area perhaps). That would be the likely explanation for the apprent discrepency IMO.

Now for the MDC between units. Last December I finished up a on/off project (though haven't posted the results yet) I've been doing since last summer that calculated a ratio of TOTAL MDC vs their listed MASS to arrive at an efficiency rating for every MDC setting book I have access to. What I found was that by this measure and organized along similiar categories values typically fall within a similiar range be it Rifts (& Phaseworld), Robotech (1E or 2E), and Macross 2.

In fact by this measure (only) of protective efficiency the Bioroid in question comes out better than the Enforcer (0.096/0.113 depending on upgrade or not vs 0.081). A similiar relationship holds for 1E (though both are lower).

[Seto Kaiba]

I know that those stats from the RPG are,maybe,too dyspaired between them but I believe that the M.D. settings from Macross 2 are more accurate than those appeared on the 2nd. edition books

Nah... like most other numbers in the Macross II RPG, the mega-damage figures for the weapons and armor are off by a considerable margin. The only real variable is how much the numbers are off, which is anywhere from 2x to 13x in virtually all cases. Mind you, that isn't even taking into account how many of the weapons are misidentified as a type that's totally different from what they actually (canonically) are.

e.g., the micro-missiles built into the Valkyrie II's Super Armed Pack are shown to be able to destroy a battle pod with a single hit on multiple occasions. In the RPG, you'd need at least 3 missile hits to have any chance of destroying a battle pod, and that's if you give them the better warheads and get seriously lucky with your damage roll. If you want the odds of you successfully destroying it in one salvo to be better than even, you'd better use at least five missiles for a single target. To cite another example, the big gun on the VF-2SS (which the game calls a super beam gun, and which is actually an anti-ship railgun) is repeatedly shown to be a "puff, it dies" gun against even the Mardook's Gigamesh battle suits (yes, those are the OFFICIAL spellings), yet in the RPG you'd need at least two enormously lucky hits to do one in... probably four if you take the law of averages into account. See where I'm going with this... I could go on for HOURS in this vein.

and all of us who has viewed Macross Frontier may have noted that the VF-25 Messiah is a very tough constructed mecha and plane and is capable of sustainig a huge amount of damage before explodes.

Yeah, but it's tough for different reasons... without getting too deep into it, the VFs in the main timeline use a technology called energy conversion armor to beef up the toughness of the super-alloy materials in their armor, and they're not quite as tough when that system's not running or running at reduced capacity. By the opposite token, the VFs in the parallel world continuity of Macross II are just made out of incredibly tough super-alloys (ala Gundarium). That's why I've never tried integrating Macross II into the main timeline, since the technological advantages of both, applied together, would make the Valkyrie II a swaggering supertough bruiser.

The stat creep I've heard complaints about in the new edition of the RT RPG should mitigate that problem somewhat as well.

Only partially. The problem comes down to the fact that new edition of the Robotech RPG make no sense whatsoever. There are some questionable decisions. To whit:

Oh yes, as you can see above, I'm all too familiar with precisely that kind of thing... though at least in Macross II's case, Palladium has a really good (and entirely valid, IMO) excuse in that the availability of information was pretty minimal.

[Seto Kaiba]

Great thank you for your provided data,Seto, I don't know many of the aspects (technical) that you mentioned as could be that of the armor alloy. When I refer to the Frontier series and the Messiah valkyrie was having on mind when Brera in his excellent painted VF-27 shoot five times to "Princess" Alto Messiah and at last the only good shot was the charged shot which destroys one of the wings of the VF-25.

Ah, yeah... the YF-24 family of Variable Fighters is something of a special case when you're talking about energy conversion armor, since their Stage II reaction engines produce enough surplus output to partially run their energy conversion armor in fighter mode instead of being limited to only GERWALK and Battroid mode like normal VFs.

Also I have on mind that you need most of the times a natural twenty(20) on the strike rolls to achieve some good results against Zentran and Mardook mecha and spaceships in the Macross 2 era.

Yeah, I know... it just really serves to underline how badly the RPG had to cripple most of the Macross II mecha to avoid them being overpowered in a RIFTS game, and eating Robotech mecha for breakfast. It'd only be worse if you threw main timeline tech in there and gave it energy conversion armor, letting it divide all incoming damage by 1.5x in GERWALK mode and 3x in battroid mode.

Hell, it's one of the things we're still trying to sort out how best to balance it in the games I'm helping to plan (non-Palladium systems tho).

Definitely one of those "GM discretion" moments when you're trying to run a crossover. It's just our good luck that the one crossover we tried, neither side had that technology, so all we really had to worry about was the massive disparity between the Alpha and the Valkyrie II in terms of firepower, armor, etc.

Now for the MDC between units. Last December I finished up a on/off project (though haven't posted the results yet) I've been doing since last summer that calculated a ratio of TOTAL MDC vs their listed MASS to arrive at an efficiency rating for every MDC setting book I have access to.

So... you've spent like two months of your free time establishing a correlation between two largely arbitrary sets of statistics?

[ShadowLogan]

So... you've spent like two months of your free time establishing a correlation between two largely arbitrary sets of statistics?

It would be more accurate to say I've been sitting on the results for the past two months. I was also doing the analysis as I went. It orginated from a REF vs CS debate, and I later expanded it in several stages (and changed a bit of the scope).

There is a correlation between those two data types, KS mentions something along those same lines in the Q&A section of the original Rofts Source Book 1 on pg8 "Question: What defines light, medium, and heavy body armor, the weight or amount of MDC? Answer: The amount of MDC protection compared to the weight." It goes on to provide examples for each and then at the very end "anything heavier is probably considered some sort of power armor or inefficient".

I have just expanded the concept's reach and chose to use mass instead of weight as it is easier to convert between different units.

[Seto Kaiba]

So... you've spent like two months of your free time establishing a correlation between two largely arbitrary sets of statistics?

I have just expanded the concept's reach and chose to use mass instead of weight as it is easier to convert between different units.

But since weight and mass aren't the same thing, you've basically thrown the validity of your entire comparison right out the window. Mind you, you could argue that this sort of ratio will work for body armor, where mecha are concerned weightier armor isn't necessarily better in a protective capacity. To cite the obvious example, the "protective efficiency" of the armor on any given Valkyrie in Macross isn't a function of its weight, but rather its reactor output and the efficiency of the energy conversion armor system.

Trying to establish some kind of universal classification/conversion system sounds like a noble goal on paper, but it's a fool's errand in the end because there'll always be an exception to it waiting in the wings to screw the whole thing up, such as trying to do a crossover game with RT and Macross. 's one of the reasons why I avoid that kind of thing like it comes with a free plague rat.

I am sure that the Alpha and even the Beta are as chewing gum for a VF-2SS most of all the Alpha in terms of raw speed;the only point in favor for the Alfa and Beta are the built-in micro-missiles systems,but if you have equipped the VF-2SS with a SAP they have nothing to do against it.

Pretty much... especially since the Valkyrie II with the de-neutered stats could quite easily one-shot the Alpha-Beta combiner from kilometers away, long before it could get into range to use its micro-missiles. Using the Synchro-Beta might even the playing field a little, if the plot hadn't conveniently neutered that option. All the same, I wouldn't expect RT mecha to compare favorably to Macross mecha, since Robotech's current creative director had to shoot down the fanon contention that all of Robotech's mecha are powered by protoculture just so the show's technological continuity wouldn't have the mecha becoming less advanced and less capable in all respects as time went on.

or visit the Macross 2.net web all of you that don't know what I am talking about and visit the profiles in the Macross Frontier section for the VF-25 Messiah F,G,S or RVF variants.

Oh, believe me... I know. After all, I'm the host of (and an occasional contributor to) the Macross Mecha Manual. In both of the games I'm involved in planning, the VF-25 is out of bounds as a player mecha because it's exclusive to the Macross Frontier fleet (AKA: 25th large-scale super-long-distance emigration fleet) and because it's so overpowered that an accurate stats build for it would be a complete game-breaker against the Zentradi or most any other opponent save for the Vajra. Since there are other canon options to permit our players to use Frontier-era tech like EX-Gear, there hasn't been much griping about having the VF-25 excluded from the games we're working on.

Also take on count the Tornado Pack too...awsome firepower to include against the invid,victory is granted if you use it coupled with a barrier system,an item long forgotten in the Robotech game.

Yeah, I think that's probably the gold standard by which game-breakers should be measured for any Robotech-Macross crossover game... especially since targets don't come much softer than the Inbit/Invid (in the series). Really, when you're fighting a foe who uses mecha that can be disabled fairly easily with nothing fancier than infantry-carried anti-tank missiles, something as advanced as the Tornado packs are probably unnecessary.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Using the Synchro-Beta might even the playing field a little, if the plot hadn't conveniently neutered that option.

Ah, but unless the UN SPACY or Mardook from Macross II are conveniently sitting on the technology to override the Synchro-Cannons, I don't think it matters. They aren't Haydonites and we're talking about a hypothetical PVP scenario anyway.

All the same, I wouldn't expect RT mecha to compare favorably to Macross mecha, since Robotech's current creative director had to shoot down the fanon contention that all of Robotech's mecha are powered by protoculture just so the show's technological continuity wouldn't have the mecha becoming less advanced and less capable in all respects as time went on.

I fail to see how the Earth mecha get less technological over time if we're simply using the show. Adapting the OSM stats, as you've pointed out, was a fool's errand to begin with as the original shows have a significant technological disparity between them. As for Tommy's retcon, I might point out that its not based on anything remotely from the Tv series. By HG's own statements, the show is canon first when it comes to arguments.

[ShadowLogan]

But since weight and mass aren't the same thing, you've basically thrown the validity of your entire comparison right out the window.

Yes I realize that weight and mass measure different things, but one can convert between the two (2.2lb = 1kg roughly on earth). Most stat figures in the PB RPG do include metric conversions, including converting English Weight into Metric Mass. They are pretty consistant though with regard to tons not being given a metric conversion, which is why I figured for their purposes they treated 1 Ton of weight = 1 Ton of Mass in the stat blocks.

Mind you, you could argue that this sort of ratio will work for body armor, where mecha are concerned weightier armor isn't necessarily better in a protective capacity. To cite the obvious example, the "protective efficiency" of the armor on any given Valkyrie in Macross isn't a function of its weight, but rather its reactor output and the efficiency of the energy conversion armor system.

Except I don't really consider MDC to be a strictly armor value. It includes armor, but is also an indication of system health (since if you take enough damage systems can start to shut down per the rules), and plot enhancements/defects (explains the lack of scale, which the ratio can be used to provide).

When considering the MDC available I wasn't counting Force Fields (which is how the Valk's system comes across) when it was noted, counting only the physical MDC provided.

Trying to establish some kind of universal classification/conversion system sounds like a noble goal on paper, but it's a fool's errand in the end because there'll always be an exception to it waiting in the wings to screw the whole thing up, such as trying to do a crossover game with RT and Macross. 's one of the reasons why I avoid that kind of thing like it comes with a free plague rat.

I'm not a fan of cross overs myself.

I don't think it is a fool's errand. While I can look at individual matchups if need be, prefer to look at the average for a given category. And yes some exceptions do exist, but with a large sample size their impact is minimilized.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

But against the synchro cannons built in the Super Alpha and the Super Beta the Frontier Valkyries has an awesome bonus to dodge due to their mach speed and also they have a barrier system which,maybe and only maybe,could stand against a direct hit from the Synchro Cannon as is shown on the t.v. show of Macross Frontier when the Macross Quarter shoots his Main Disintegration Gun against the Vajra main Flagship and the attack fails due the energy barrier which the Vajra ship possesses.Reduce the scale and you might achieve the same effect for a Valkyrie.

And? I didn't say anything about Macross Frontier mecha. For one thing, they don't even have game stats. For another, I was making specific reference to The UN SPACY of Macross II and The Mardook.

[Seto Kaiba]

Since this is getting kind of long, I've compartmentalized the individual responses to each of your posts into a separate spoiler tag so you don't have to wade through my reply to the others if you don't want to.

@Rabid Southern Cross Fan

Spoiler:

Ah, but unless the UN SPACY or Mardook from Macross II are conveniently sitting on the technology to override the Synchro-Cannons, I don't think it matters.

If, as we've been discussing, they're playing this close to the animation then it's only logical that the synchro cannons wouldn't be used. I know the guys at the top of the UEDF/UEEF chain of command in Robotech are generally incompetent, treasonous, or both, but I'd say it'd be uncharacteristically thick EVEN FOR THEM to send troops into combat against an unknown foe armed with sabotaged weapons and defensive systems.

'course, since the UN Spacy in Macross II's timeline has already proven capable of not only reverse-engineering multiple factory satellites, but restoring them to full operation and using them to produce new VFs and starships in a relatively short period of time, I doubt it would be that hard for them to find the flaws in the Synchro Cannon, Shadow Devices, etc. that Louie had no trouble finding and never bothered to bring to anyone's attention.

Adapting the OSM stats, as you've pointed out, was a fool's errand to begin with as the original shows have a significant technological disparity between them.

Oh, I'll grant you that it was lazy of Harmony Gold to just use the OSM stats and those Masters Saga stats that Peter and Pieter pulled out of their arses, but in the end they're not in contradiction with the animation because those stats were (mostly) created by the people who created that animation before it was a part of Robotech. Even without relying on those numbers, canon fact that they are, we see a marked decrease in aerodynamic design, and a sharp decrease in operational versatility with the reduction and disappearance of the ordinance loading stations, coupled with the obvious decrease in engine power in the Alpha, since it needs a whole other plane on the back to get to space. QED.

As for Tommy's retcon, I might point out that its not based on anything remotely from the Tv series. By HG's own statements, the show is canon first when it comes to arguments.

Let's please be precise here... torpedoing a long-cherished aspect of fanon IS NOT a retcon. The one piece of dialogue discussing the VF-1's power plant actually SUPPORTS the fusion argument, and they never identify the power source of the other mecha as being the show's resident macguffin either (with the possible exception of the Monster).

@josephddm

Spoiler:

But against the synchro cannons built in the Super Alpha and the Super Beta the Frontier Valkyries has an awesome bonus to dodge due to their mach speed

... and the Macross Frontier-era Valkyries, like all Valkyries, benefit from the additional maneuverability conferred applying thrust-vectoring to their powerful engines. Every VF has at least single-axis thrust vectoring capability, and some have multi-axis thrust vectoring, a full-360 circumferential vectoring nozzle, or both... and that isn't counting the aerodynamic control options like canards or variable-camber wings. Unsurprisingly, the VF/A-6 Alpha and VF/B-9 Beta have none of those aids to maneuverability. Kind of a game-breaker when you attempt a crossover, IMO...

and also they have a barrier system which,maybe and only maybe,could stand against a direct hit from the Synchro Cannon

Well, we never see the fighter-scale version of the synchro cannon fired, but I doubt that it would be anywhere near as powerful as the ship-mounted ones, which (in RTSC) don't seem to be any more powerful than the average beam cannon turrets used on ships like the Battle 7 or the SMS Macross Quarter. Since the Vajra's big beam weapons were shown to be more or less on par with that, and the VF-25's pinpoint barrier and energy conversion armor have been shown to be fully capable of surviving a hit from that, I don't think the Synchro Beta'd pose much of a threat...

also they respect the large size of the old VF's even for a limited available space and room in the spaceships solving the problem with miles long ships

Actually, most ships in Macross are nowhere near a mile long... the average carrier in use in the 2040s-2050s isn't even a quarter mile long, and the largest non-Macross carriers aren't even four-tenths of a mile long... in terms of length, they're actually pretty close to real-world aircraft carriers, and mostly carry a similar number of planes. Only the biggest carriers (Battle sections) are over a mile long, and only the habitat ships are massive like you're talking about.

the UEEF doesn't has on count because they aren't a colony fleet instead of a combat fleet mission and that's why in part the lower size of Alpha's and Beta's and even the small numbers carried on the ships.

You might want to go check the canon stats for the later-generation ships in RT, since they're actually slightly larger than the largest escort carriers and pack huge numbers of the smaller and less capable Alpha fighter. The Ikazuchi-class carries 144 Alphas just in its quick launch bays, and if you use that number (or the footage) to estimate how many larger ships like the Ark Angel or the SDF-4 could carry, and you end up with ~300 or more in most cases... and given their combat performance in the show, they're clearly hoping that numbers can cover quality.

@ShadowLogan

Spoiler:

Most stat figures in the PB RPG do include metric conversions, including converting English Weight into Metric Mass.

Though, if you take note, usually their metric conversions are usually off by a fair bit... like how they round certain numbers up or down for no reason, usually in the opposite direction from what they should. For example, the VF-2JA's listed height (incorrect at that) cited as being 43 feet (or 13m), when it's actually a little over 13.1m. Never mind how they arrived at 43ft from the official listed height of 15.9m (52.17ft). Though they opted to omit all the metric masses, they somehow arrived at a weight of 29 tons for the VF-2SS w/o its Super Armed Pack from a mass of 19.1 metric tons (which is ~18.8 imperial tons, and 21.05 short tons, neither of which is anywhere near 29 tons). What'd they do, give the weight for the plane on a planet with a local gravity of 1.4g?

(By the way, since the common American conception of a "ton" is the short ton, using the Imperial ton for your estimates probably skewed your measurements considerably)

They are pretty consistant though with regard to tons not being given a metric conversion, which is why I figured for their purposes they treated 1 Ton of weight = 1 Ton of Mass in the stat blocks.

Except where they treated 1 ton of mass as 1.3774 tons of weight.

[Seto Kaiba]

But I think that the Macross II Valkyries the only way they could avoid the Synchro firing is dodging the beam,of course they are not able to make a stand against a direct hit and survive after that.

Eh, I dunno about that... the "upgraded" Beta's synchro cannon is likely to stay an unknown quantity since they never really bothered to use it before the gratuitous Haydonite sabotage came to light and made anything with shadow technology a massive liability. Dodging ought to be pretty easy for the Valkyrie II though, since its single-axis thrust vectoring and all the high-maneuverability verniers it has (nearly 2.5x as many as the VF-1 Super Valkyrie) ought to confer one wicked dodge bonus.

Yes,you are right,those futile numbers [...] then the question is if the battle against the Regent and their troops on the Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles,doesn't teach them nothing about to fight the Invid

Eh... you gotta cut the UEEF some slack. After all, they're suffering under the inspirational leadership of Admiral Rick "Naivete" Hunter and his close advisers Lucifer and Brigadier General Back Stabbington T.R. Edwards. Of course, the good Admiral also wisely decided to leave Earth's defenses in the capable hands of a terrorist mole.

Every now and again when I watch Robotech, I get the feeling that Zapp Brannigan's Big Book of War is required reading at the military academies on RT's Earth.

Also for me the another question is were the hell are the Zentraedi troops of the UEEF fleet and their ships?,why the UEEF didn't use them to travel to Tirol and fight the Invid and the Masters alike?is cheaper than built a whole new fleet if we've got on count that the Robotech Factory could easily repair the Breetai's fleet.

Good question... if we take Scott's remarks in the New Generation at face value, then the Zentradi are either extinct or headed that way. Prelude certainly doesn't augur well for them either, since by the look of things Breetai's Zentradi forces were annihilated when the Regent's flagship was destroyed while they were fighting on it.

Hope we see in the next books new Human transforming mecha because improving the Alpha and the Beta is not the best course of action that the fleet must take. They need better and tougher Verytechs.My opinion.

Huh... well, no chance of that happening in the foreseeable future. At least, not while the "creative" staff at Harmony Gold is clinging to the idea that Warner Bros will decide to make the live-action movie instead of just sitting on the rights until they expire, and that the live action movie will be successful enough that they give up on the dead-end animated series and just sit back while Warner does all the work and mails them a check for royalties every now and again.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

If, as we've been discussing, they're playing this close to the animation then it's only logical that the synchro cannons wouldn't be used. I know the guys at the top of the UEDF/UEEF chain of command in Robotech are generally incompetent, treasonous, or both, but I'd say it'd be uncharacteristically thick EVEN FOR THEM to send troops into combat against an unknown foe armed with sabotaged weapons and defensive systems.

But we're talking about a hypothetical cross-over game. Otherwise, it would only be fair to limit the UN SPACY to 1 Metal Siren and a Metal Siren Replica since the VA-1SS had not entered mass production when the series ended.

'course, since the UN Spacy in Macross II's timeline has already proven capable of not only reverse-engineering multiple factory satellites, but restoring them to full operation and using them to produce new VFs and starships in a relatively short period of time, I doubt it would be that hard for them to find the flaws in the Synchro Cannon, Shadow Devices, etc. that Louie had no trouble finding and never bothered to bring to anyone's attention.

But that applies to Robotech as well.

Even without relying on those numbers, canon fact that they are, we see a marked decrease in aerodynamic design

Which has nothing to do with technological innovation. In fact, making less aerodynamic platforms would tend to show the opposite. There is no fighter plane in the US arsenal today that does not use Fly-by-Wire because they are inherently unstable platforms.

a sharp decrease in operational versatility

In favour of more specialized role vehicles. This, again, has nothing to do with technology but an operational shift by the military based on demands of the battlefield.

the reduction and disappearance of the ordinance loading stations

In favour of conformal hardpoints (all the Southern Cross vehicles) and single-shot surface launchers capable of being used in every mode. Again, I'm not seeing a reduction in technological ability.

coupled with the obvious decrease in engine power in the Alpha, since it needs a whole other plane on the back to get to space

Except that to make a fully usable gestalt vehicle would be a rather marked technological advancement.

The one piece of dialogue discussing the VF-1's power plant actually SUPPORTS the fusion argument, and they never identify the power source of the other mecha as being the show's resident macguffin either (with the possible exception of the Monster).

I wasn't really thinking of The Macross Saga mecha, though.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Yes,you are right,those futile numbers don't make a stand against the million or more of potential fighters that the Regess has at her command,

Re-watch the Last 2 Episodes, the Regesis Admits her forces are out numbered by the REF. so I highly Doubt the Regesis can toss waves of "Millions"

[Tiree]

I was running a game of Robotech New Gen, during the TV series in Australia. Had big plans for it.

I have been thinking about running a game right after the fall of the Master's. Run a few adventures to show the demise of the Master's. The clean up process, stamping down rebellions, etc... and then have the Invid come.

Let the players become the first resistance fighters.

For the New Gen equipment they would have access to the following:
Alpha, VR-038 Lite Cyclone, and some of the vehicles like the AAT-30, and AAT-20. During the course of the game there will be other resources added that the players could get access to.

[Tiree]

I was running a game of Robotech New Gen, during the TV series in Australia. Had big plans for it.

I have been thinking about running a game right after the fall of the Master's. Run a few adventures to show the demise of the Master's. The clean up process, stamping down rebellions, etc... and then have the Invid come.

Let the players become the first resistance fighters.

For the New Gen equipment they would have access to the following:
Alpha, VR-038 Lite Cyclone, and some of the vehicles like the AAT-30, and AAT-20. During the course of the game there will be other resources added that the players could get access to.

Remember to make that extra resources only available after the First Reclamation Fleet which brought Lancer on Earth and increase it whith the Scott Bernard's fleet,newer improvements and weapons and Alphas and Betas refitted with more armor and loaded with plenty of missiles.
Maybe you can make lesser powerfull Alpha fighters due they are still a little bit experimental or prototypes(I still believe that the REF has improved the Alpha on space).
Just an idea.Enjoy.

I am not going to alter any stats. Alphas are available from the Carpenter mission, along with Cyclones. Beta's won't be available till the 2nd Reclamation with Scott Bernard.

[ShadowLogan]

Seto:
Yes I realize that the conversion PB does in their stat blocks are not always completely accurate.

That leaves 3 options in this course of action that will maintain consistancy:
-1. Treat their Metric values as accurate and the imperial ones as the inaccurate ones for this purpose
-2. Do the conversions oneself from the imperial measurements
-3. Accept that the metric conversions are off, but as they are going to be off by similiar amounts

On the tangent about the M2 mecha.

When I did this I noted how the mass was listed: dry/empty, fully loaded, and unstated. The VF-2SS has an unstated mass in the RPG (I don't know how it is in your other sources). What PB means with regard to an unstated mass description I do not know, one can take it to either end if they want to depending on how one wants to inturpret it.

[Seto Kaiba]

I was running a game of Robotech New Gen, during the TV series in Australia. Had big plans for it.

Now that is an interesting game setting... not one with tons of appeal for the average RT fan, but oddly topical now that it's been revealed that Harmony Gold's latest squeaky wet fart of a direct-to-video featurette is pretty much EXACTLY THAT.

But we're talking about a hypothetical cross-over game. Otherwise, it would only be fair to limit the UN SPACY to 1 Metal Siren and a Metal Siren Replica since the VA-1SS had not entered mass production when the series ended.

Huh... well, I hadn't even mentioned the Metal Siren prior to this, but yeah that's fair. It's not like leaving the Metal Siren out would make this hypothetical PvP any less unfair for the poor schlubs in the Alpha fighters if we're using accurate stats for the mecha in question.

But that applies to Robotech as well.

Does it really? Yes, the "United Earth Forces" in Robotech supposedly captured two factory satellites, but did they actually LEARN anything from the experience? The one seems to have vanished into thin air, and thanks to Vince Grant the other's been squashed into a singularity. Despite having access to the two of them, potentially for decades, they don't seem to have gleaned any technological improvements from them. In the years since they acquired the factory satellites, the VFs used by the Earth Forces have gotten smaller, slower, heavier, less aerodynamic, less maneuverable, and lost mid-to-long-range offensive capabilities entirely. That isn't technological advancement... that's deterioration. If even Tommy can spot it, then it's gotta be GLARINGLY obvious.

coupled with the obvious decrease in engine power in the Alpha, since it needs a whole other plane on the back to get to space

Except that to make a fully usable gestalt vehicle would be a rather marked technological advancement.

But that only counts if the Beta is crewed... which it pretty much never is, making it little more than an incredibly overpriced and wastefully fuel- and resource-intensive set of super parts for the Alpha fighter.

To Seto:
Which is the measure for the Regent Scorpion?.In the Robotech II:the Sentinels book RPG stats for a mile long if I remember well because it was twice as large as the normal Scorpion.Thank you.

Hell if I know... that ship doesn't have any canon stats that I'm aware of. If I had to guess based on the comics, I'd say it's probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 600m long when it appears in Prelude. I don't have my copy of the Sentinels book on hand (since I'm posting from work), so I can't look up with that book says.

Seto: [...]
That leaves 3 options in this course of action that will maintain consistancy:
-1. Treat their Metric values as accurate and the imperial ones as the inaccurate ones for this purpose

This is probably your best course of action, where the metric values are available, that way you can correct their inconsistent rounding practices for accuracy's sake. IT would also be helpful to use the common (short) ton, since they don't specify Imperial tons, which aren't the same thing. (2000lb vs 2240lb)

The VF-2SS has an unstated mass in the RPG (I don't know how it is in your other sources).

Canon sources provide a "fully-loaded" mass for the Valkyrie II w/o its Super Armed Pack. It could easily be used to approximate an empty weight based on the fuel loadings of the other known VFs.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Despite having access to the two of them, potentially for decades, they don't seem to have gleaned any technological improvements from them. In the years since they acquired the factory satellites, the VFs used by the Earth Forces have gotten smaller, slower, heavier, less aerodynamic, less maneuverable, and lost mid-to-long-range offensive capabilities entirely. That isn't technological advancement... that's deterioration. If even Tommy can spot it, then it's gotta be GLARINGLY obvious.

Slower doesn't equate with being technologically deficient. Otherwise, you might as well state the F-16 is a technological downgrade since its slower than the SR-71. Also, the less aerodynamic a platform, the more technologically advanced it would HAVE to be to fly. I question that the Logan is less maneuverable than the Valkyrie since its far smaller and has a significantly greater thrust-to-weight ratio (at least according to the HG stats). Only the Alpha and Condor lost the mid-to-long range capabilities, as the Logan and Ajax have MRM capabilities and Beta has LRM hardpoints. Plus, you're forgetting the non-transformable platforms that took up the slack. This is a doctrinal shift, not a technological downgrade.

But that only counts if the Beta is crewed... which it pretty much never is, making it little more than an incredibly overpriced and wastefully fuel- and resource-intensive set of super parts for the Alpha fighter.

But it is crewed for most of its screen time in A New Generation. The only uncrewed ones we see are in Symphony of Light and they are attached to Shadow Drones. Presumably those at the start of Reflex Point had both an Alpha and Beta pilot. As for The Shadow Chronicles, I'll grant you that, though its funny as an aside that Beta's were crewed in the scripts of The Sentinels that were released.

[Seto Kaiba]

Slower doesn't equate with being technologically deficient. Otherwise, you might as well state the F-16 is a technological downgrade since its slower than the SR-71.

Just FYI... you're really not going to do your position any favors by throwing out an obvious and faulty generalization as your counterargument. Unlike the F-16 and the SR-71, a pair of aircraft made to fill wildly different roles, the VF-1 and the Alpha fighter are meant to fill the very same position... that of the military's main multirole fighter. If you examine real-world fighter aircraft, you'll tend to find that they get faster, more aerodynamic, and stealthier as technology advances. The Alpha follows the opposite trend by being inferior to the VF-1 in every regard: it's slower, it's heavier, its service ceiling is lower, it's less maneuverable, it's lacking in anything but short-range armaments... dunno why I'm even debating this with you, since the deterioration of mecha capabilities was formally recognized and addressed by Robotech's creative staff. It's a fact of life.

Also, the less aerodynamic a platform, the more technologically advanced it would HAVE to be to fly.

Another sweeping generalization... one that only holds true in specific cases of... how shall I put it... unusual aerodynamics that offer some other kind of benefit, like the B-2.

I question that the Logan is less maneuverable than the Valkyrie since its far smaller and has a significantly greater thrust-to-weight ratio (at least according to the HG stats).

Oh really? It seems I've caught you in a little fib here, my friend. You're assuming the Logan has a greater thrust-to-weight ratio than the VF-1 Valkyrie, but the stats don't list a thrust-to-weight ratio (or even mention it)... nor do they even provide the engine's thrust rating. Aerodynamically, the Logan probably shouldn't be able to fly at all, since its design isn't really much of a lifting body, and its wings are fairly small. It's a pretty safe bet that the Logan's less maneuverable than the Valkyrie... since it has little in the way of control surfaces, no thrust vectoring, no boundary layer airflow control. Mind you, the official stats also say it was outclassed by non-transformable fighters. (and then outclassed again by the AGACS)

(Huh, now I wanna go back and see if the stats in the books actually reflect what an embarrassing waste of metal the Logan supposedly is)

[Sgt Anjay]

Slower doesn't equate with being technologically deficient. Otherwise, you might as well state the F-16 is a technological downgrade since its slower than the SR-71.

Just FYI... you're really not going to do your position any favors by throwing out an obvious and faulty generalization as your counterargument.

He is, actually, pointing out your faulty generalization: speed=better. If additional speed adds nothing to the combat power of the craft, then having it is a waste. The top speeds of modern aircraft haven't increased markedly in the supersonic range in last few decades of the real world because that speed doesn't translate into actual combat power. Higher sustained speeds, of course, are a different matter. At any rate, explain how speeds faster than those attainable by the Alpha are necessary for combat against the Alpha's designated opposition?

Unlike the F-16 and the SR-71, a pair of aircraft made to fill wildly different roles, the VF-1 and the Alpha fighter are meant to fill the very same position... that of the military's main multirole fighter.

There's multi-role, and then there's multi-role. The VF-1 was THE Veritech Fighter, supposed to fly into combat and defeat all comers by itself. It was all the eggs in one basket. The Alpha is assisted in the air by Condors and Conbats, or Betas and Bioroids, depending on the era. Therefore, they aren't really directly comparable as far as what they were meant or needed to do.

If you examine real-world fighter aircraft, you'll tend to find that they get faster, more aerodynamic, and stealthier as technology advances. The Alpha follows the opposite trend by being inferior to the VF-1 in every regard: it's slower, it's heavier, its service ceiling is lower, it's less maneuverable, it's lacking in anything but short-range armaments...

Oh, that hoary old argument. The Alpha has demonstrable technological advancements: smaller yet better armored (which, surprise surprise, is a pretty good recipe for heavy); despite being heavy and small, it still manages to be a supersonic aircraft, just less supersonic than its giant predecessor (less supersonic, oh no...what's the average Invid top speed?); internal payload and angular design, both hallmarks of passively stealthy craft; on-the-fly linkage with heavy ordnance and transatmospheric booster, in an infinitely more rapid and easy process than bolting on external parts or the sort of booster the VF-1 needed to become fully transatmospheric, that also has the additional advantage of the option for a secondary combat craft as dictated by mission and available personnel; a design which lent itself to adaptation for drone units and upgrade to Shadow capability (which yes, was boobytrapped, but the point remains that the design was capable of being upgraded with something as revolutionary as a dimensional stealth system); a control system that a teenage motorcycle gang member (Rook) could learn to utilize effectively enough to defeat enemy units in combat with minimal training by another pilot, himself not much older.

Moreover, the Alpha is easily proven much more than capable at achieving dominance over its foes, especially in tandem with the additional combatants it was meant to be fielded with. This little tidbit is rather key; nothing that can be said will make the Alpha inadequate or any sort of failure of technology, because it does exactly what it is meant to do well, and so is by definition successful. Overkill might be preferable from a military standpoint, the more the better, but can easily become more expensive than government (and/or the civilians supporting them) are willing to foot the bill for.

Also, the less aerodynamic a platform, the more technologically advanced it would HAVE to be to fly.

Another sweeping generalization... one that only holds true in specific cases of... how shall I put it... unusual aerodynamics that offer some other kind of benefit, like the B-2.

If its less aerodynamic, and it flies with performances equivalent to more aerodynamic aircraft (and the Alpha does), then it is not less technologically advanced. As for "some other kind of benefit", yes, you are right, the Alpha does have characteristics of those sorts of craft. Funny that.

I question that the Logan is less maneuverable than the Valkyrie since its far smaller and has a significantly greater thrust-to-weight ratio (at least according to the HG stats).

Oh really? It seems I've caught you in a little fib here, my friend. You're assuming the Logan has a greater thrust-to-weight ratio than the VF-1 Valkyrie, but the stats don't list a thrust-to-weight ratio (or even mention it)... nor do they even provide the engine's thrust rating. Aerodynamically, the Logan probably shouldn't be able to fly at all, since its design isn't really much of a lifting body, and its wings are fairly small. It's a pretty safe bet that the Logan's less maneuverable than the Valkyrie... since it has little in the way of control surfaces, no thrust vectoring, no boundary layer airflow control. Mind you, the official stats also say it was outclassed by non-transformable fighters. (and then outclassed again by the AGACS)

(Huh, now I wanna go back and see if the stats in the books actually reflect what an embarrassing waste of metal the Logan supposedly is)

A waste of metal that can't fly? I won't speak to its thrust-to-weight, but considering the performance we actually see in the animation, your entire argument completely falls apart, which isn't surprising since it seems based on dislike rather than anything resembling evidence.

[Seto Kaiba]

He is, actually, pointing out your faulty generalization: speed=better. If additional speed adds nothing to the combat power of the craft, then having it is a waste.

Ordinarily, one would consider being able to reach the target in a timely fashion a fairly large part of craft's combat capability... especially when a good part of the reason that you need to cover all that distance is because the designer thought beyond-visual-range armament is for chumps.

There's multi-role, and then there's multi-role. The VF-1 was THE Veritech Fighter, supposed to fly into combat and defeat all comers by itself.

Well, there were QF-3000's and SF-3A's too, but I've gathered that the "serious" fans of the Robotech series tend to ignore what's canon... quite disquieting, IMO. It speaks of a deep disrespect for the show's creators, which I do grudgingly have to admit is warranted.

The Alpha is assisted in the air by Condors and Conbats, or Betas and Bioroids, depending on the era. Therefore, they aren't really directly comparable as far as what they were meant or needed to do.

and those were where during... oh... every combat scene in the animated continuity? I don't seem to recall seeing any Condors and Conbats, unless you count the watercolors that showed them being ineffective and getting slaughtered during the opening narration. Betas, with the sole exception of the one Scott's band salvages, are glorified super parts, so that's not really support either... and, of course, the Bioroids aren't seen either because they got added to the REF forces long after the Alpha was adopted (and thus obviously didn't figure into its mission profile) and were annihilated anyway in a single battle. (Goodness, having 2nd and 3rd generation mecha turn out to be useless deathtraps is turning into a pattern here, isn't it? Small wonder the REF used VF-1s instead of Alphas in the old Sentinels comics)

Oh, that hoary old argument. The Alpha has demonstrable technological advancements:

Oh god... here we go, another list of dubious claims.

smaller yet better armored

We've seen the VF-1 survive beatings from Zentradi more or less unscathed, while the Alpha armor comes apart like paper after a single hit in passing from an Invid mecha's blunt claw... better armor is kind of a silly argument, isn't it?

despite being heavy and small, it still manages to be a supersonic aircraft, just less supersonic than its giant predecessor

Oh, sure... mind you, it's a craft being used in an orbit-to-surface assault that's completely incapable of returning to orbit under its own power if things go awry (like they did all three times).

internal payload and angular design, both hallmarks of passively stealthy craft;

You might notice a difference between stealth angular design (e.g. F-117A) and the blocky design of the Alpha... namely, the Alpha's square-on edges from the front and sides would make it an easier target for enemy radars, instead of having the slopes that would reflect radar waves away from the sending craft. Internal payload's kinda iffy too, when it's made up entirely of extremely short-ranged micro-missiles that, on an individual basis, appear no more powerful than those being used in man-portable rocket launchers...

on-the-fly linkage with heavy ordnance and transatmospheric booster, in an infinitely more rapid and easy process than bolting on external parts or the sort of booster the VF-1 needed to become fully transatmospheric

On the fly linkage with a larger, slower, and heavier secondary craft that makes the Alpha even less aerodynamic in order to achieve what it should probably have been able to do on its own (like pretty much every fighter in Macross can).

a design which lent itself to adaptation for drone units

Unsurprisingly, you can do that with pretty much any fighter... that's not really a point in its favor, you know?

a control system that a teenage motorcycle gang member (Rook) could learn to utilize effectively enough to defeat enemy units in combat with minimal training by another pilot, himself not much older.

Again, that's not much different from the VF-1, where pilots recruited in wartime were given relatively little training and then pressed into service. (e.g. Max, Ben)

but considering the performance we actually see in the animation, your entire argument completely falls apart, which isn't surprising since it seems based on dislike rather than anything resembling evidence.

The performance we see in the animation isn't all that remarkable, and there is the question of the canon stats which make it quite clear that the Logan was swiftly outperformed by the non-transforming fighters and the AGACs.







In a valiant (and probably futile) attempt to make this somewhat relevant to what the OP's thread is supposed to be about (at least, before we got carried away and quasi-hijacked it), I can't help but remind myself that this sort of dispute is another reason I've always avoided doing crossover games. It's a damned-if-you-do damned-if-you-don't situation. If you run your game with the RPG book stats then most RT fans are happy (except the ones who are looking to imitate the show) and the Macross fans are mad because their mecha were neutered, and if you run the game accurate-to-canon, the Macross fans are happy but the RT fans are upset because they often don't like what RT's owners have done with the canon. Heaven help you if you allow mixed customizing of mecha... then the only thing to do is see if you can't salvage some money from the ensuing violence by getting the fight on pay-per-view.

[ShadowLogan]

Seto:

This is probably your best course of action, where the metric values are available, that way you can correct their inconsistent rounding practices for accuracy's sake. IT would also be helpful to use the common (short) ton, since they don't specify Imperial tons, which aren't the same thing. (2000lb vs 2240lb)

This is the basic approach I took, the only exceptions are the tonn issue and the few occassions when I had to do the conversions myself (ala #2).

Though in #1 if we are ignoring the English units, the weight figure could be viewed as the metric value when a conversion is not offered since it is unlikely people are going to be mix/match units like that.

Canon sources provide a "fully-loaded" mass for the Valkyrie II w/o its Super Armed Pack. It could easily be used to approximate an empty weight based on the fuel loadings of the other known VFs.

At the time though did PB have the proper information?

Though within the context of the RPG stats, the mass may have been increased to deliever the Rifts-esque level of protection the stats describe and maintain consistancy with some unstated stat assignment process they use.

The performance we see in the animation isn't all that remarkable, and there is the question of the canon stats which make it quite clear that the Logan was swiftly outperformed by the non-transforming fighters and the AGACs.

The canon stats are wrong about the Logan being outperformed by nt-fighters since it ignores the demonstrated visuals. The canon appears based purely on off-screen events as screentime wise the Logan gets very little, but compared to some of the more widely used mecha in that era comes out looking better in those episodes when they appear together: (scroll down to second post).
http://www.robotech.com/community/forum/read.php?id=870914&forumid=9

The Logan is also described as a "light Veritech fighter" where the AGAC, VF-1, Alpha, and Beta do not get that distinction pushing them into the medium/heavy range, so of course it will be outclassed in some respects.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

The canon stats are wrong about the Logan being outperformed by nt-fighters since it ignores the demonstrated visuals.

It also ignores the fact that the Logan was used primarily inside the atmosphere whereas the Ajax was not. How could it be superseded at a role it was not primarily designed for?

[Seto Kaiba]

This is the basic approach I took, the only exceptions are the tonn issue and the few occassions when I had to do the conversions myself (ala #2).

Ah, I see... well, aside from the obvious questions of exceptions to the rule the only major issue I see with what you've done is your assumption that 1 metric ton = 1 Imperial ton, or that the Imperial ton was being used for the English measurements of weight (the common "ton" measurements used in the book are pretty much guaranteed to be the short ton, as that's the common meaning of "ton" in the US), so that extra 240lb in each Imperial ton will throw the measurement off.

Canon sources provide a "fully-loaded" mass for the Valkyrie II w/o its Super Armed Pack. It could easily be used to approximate an empty weight based on the fuel loadings of the other known VFs.

At the time though did PB have the proper information?

Given some of the other stats they cite correctly, and barring a massive and unlikely set of coincidences, they ought to have had access to that information. It may be that they just got the books for art to trace, and ignored the contents, which might explain why a couple of the Valkyrie II's armaments have such perplexing stats choices and why so many of the railguns in the OVA are misidentified as beam weaponry.

The canon stats are wrong about the Logan being outperformed by nt-fighters since it ignores the demonstrated visuals. The canon appears based purely on off-screen events as screentime wise the Logan gets very little

'k, this is exactly what I was talking about at the end of my last post... trying to mod the RT RPG to make it accurate-to-canon almost invariably results in someone disputing the accuracy or validity of the canon stats. After nearly eight years of being an active member of the Robotech fandom, I've yet to understand why the fans do this. If I didn't know better, I'd guess it was just the result of Tommy's lazy attempt to avoid having to come up with a firm and detailed definition of canon. Despite the numbers you provided in that other thread, I'd say the limited number of Logans seen in combat, the aggressively limited screen time they got, and the almost indecent haste with which the Logan was tossed aside for a superior craft (the AGACs) and then vanished into the aether argues strongly for what the Infopedia has to say.

(Mind you, I still find the AGACs to be one of the most eccentric real-world design refs in an anime series... I mean, seriously... the Sikorsky X-Wing?)

[Sgt Anjay]

He is, actually, pointing out your faulty generalization: speed=better. If additional speed adds nothing to the combat power of the craft, then having it is a waste.

Ordinarily, one would consider being able to reach the target in a timely fashion a fairly large part of craft's combat capability... especially when a good part of the reason that you need to cover all that distance is because the designer thought beyond-visual-range armament is for chumps.

If your assertion were true real world fighter aircraft would have kept climbing higher and higher into mach speeds since they first began doing so in the 1950s, and the SR-71 (a design of the 1960s) would have long been surpassed by standard aircraft. This is quite clearly not the case. Sustained speed equals combat power, not high top speed. The Alpha has the speed to match or better the foes it faced as a matter of course. BVR can be handled by Condors and Betas, and in either case lack of BVR is rather symptomatic of TV and movie portrayals, even in cases where the capability is included.

There's multi-role, and then there's multi-role. The VF-1 was THE Veritech Fighter, supposed to fly into combat and defeat all comers by itself.

Well, there were QF-3000's and SF-3A's too, but I've gathered that the "serious" fans of the Robotech series tend to ignore what's canon... quite disquieting, IMO. It speaks of a deep disrespect for the show's creators, which I do grudgingly have to admit is warranted.

I'm so very sorry you're disquieted, but I don't owe anyone an authority they don't merit. As for Ghosts and SF-3's, its very funny you bring those up considering their lack of footage, and then lower down in your response dismiss Combats, Condors, and Bioroids because they aren't well attested in the footage. So either you don't agree with yourself, or are being opportunistic in your choice of evidence. At any rate, are you declaring that operational doctrine called for mixed formations of Veritech fighters with Ghosts and SF-3s in Robotech? If so, what do you base this on? Because there is actual documentation to back up the assertion that Alphas were to fly in mixed formations with either Condors and Conbats or Betas and Bioroids.

The Alpha is assisted in the air by Condors and Conbats, or Betas and Bioroids, depending on the era. Therefore, they aren't really directly comparable as far as what they were meant or needed to do.

and those were where during... oh... every combat scene in the animated continuity? I don't seem to recall seeing any Condors and Conbats, unless you count the watercolors that showed them being ineffective and getting slaughtered during the opening narration. Betas, with the sole exception of the one Scott's band salvages, are glorified super parts, so that's not really support either... and, of course, the Bioroids aren't seen either because they got added to the REF forces long after the Alpha was adopted (and thus obviously didn't figure into its mission profile) and were annihilated anyway in a single battle. (Goodness, having 2nd and 3rd generation mecha turn out to be useless deathtraps is turning into a pattern here, isn't it? Small wonder the REF used VF-1s instead of Alphas in the old Sentinels comics)

And here it is, where the dichotomy of bringing up Ghosts and SF-3s collides with the dismissal of Conbats, Condors,and Bioroids. So its ok for Macross, but not ok for New Generation? At least there are Robotech sources attesting to the doctrinal use of Conbats, Condors, and Bioroids, which quite easily has more weight than your knee-jerk minimization of Robotech material. As for Betas, they have more capabilities than simple super parts, while also being easier and faster to mount on an Alpha than super parts are. As for the Bioroid not figuring into the Alpha mission profile, it is the successor to the Conbat, so is quite relevant when discussing the Alpha mission profile. Where is there any evidence all Bioroids were "annihilated" in a "single battle"? You seem to have made that up. And along those lines, the Sentinels in the comics showed and used designs from every era: VF-1s, Logans, Ajax, and Alphas. Asserting otherwise is a falsehood.

Oh, that hoary old argument. The Alpha has demonstrable technological advancements:

Oh god... here we go, another list of dubious claims.

Certainly less dubious than the blanket "its all useless after Macross", which appears to be your default position.

smaller yet better armored

We've seen the VF-1 survive beatings from Zentradi more or less unscathed, while the Alpha armor comes apart like paper after a single hit in passing from an Invid mecha's blunt claw... better armor is kind of a silly argument, isn't it?

Ha! Really? That's all you got? Its anime. Hero mecha seem indestructible, while Red Shirts get blown up if they're breathed on too hard in the background. This is demonstrably true for Macross as easily as New Generation, and I've yet to see a Robotech source assert the VF-1 is better armored than an Alpha.

despite being heavy and small, it still manages to be a supersonic aircraft, just less supersonic than its giant predecessor

Oh, sure... mind you, it's a craft being used in an orbit-to-surface assault that's completely incapable of returning to orbit under its own power if things go awry (like they did all three times).

So? In what way, shape, or form does this demonstrate any sort of backslide in technological capability? Your statement is an irrelevant tangent.

internal payload and angular design, both hallmarks of passively stealthy craft;

You might notice a difference between stealth angular design (e.g. F-117A) and the blocky design of the Alpha... namely, the Alpha's square-on edges from the front and sides would make it an easier target for enemy radars, instead of having the slopes that would reflect radar waves away from the sending craft. Internal payload's kinda iffy too, when it's made up entirely of extremely short-ranged micro-missiles that, on an individual basis, appear no more powerful than those being used in man-portable rocket launchers...

What are your qualifications for stating the Alpha's angular design is more radar vulnerable, as opposed to the Robotech source claiming the opposite? Internal payload is not iffy, because my statement was that internal payloads are more stealthy than external payloads; that is a truth that has nothing to do with yet another tangent you've introduced for the sole purpose of getting in a dig at the Alpha fighter. At any rate, the missiles carried internally by Alphas prove over and over again more than adequate to defeat their foes, which happens to be the actual purpose of ordnance.

on-the-fly linkage with heavy ordnance and transatmospheric booster, in an infinitely more rapid and easy process than bolting on external parts or the sort of booster the VF-1 needed to become fully transatmospheric

On the fly linkage with a larger, slower, and heavier secondary craft that makes the Alpha even less aerodynamic in order to achieve what it should probably have been able to do on its own (like pretty much every fighter in Macross can).

The Beta is larger; so? Slower cruising speed maybe, but its top speed makes it transatmospheric, the purpose of the linkup. Making the Alpha less aerodynamic is a null point, because it does not impede the purpose of the linkup, which is to make an Alpha transatmospheric and/or give it heavy and long-range ordnance. If the Alpha needs maximum aerodynamics for atmospheric dogfighting it can disengage the linkup at will. And I fail to see how Macross sequels are at all relevant to the discussion of technology having back-slid during the course of Robotech.

a design which lent itself to adaptation for drone units

Unsurprisingly, you can do that with pretty much any fighter... that's not really a point in its favor, you know?

Any fighter can be made into a combat-effective main line drone fighter that can be fielded independently against enemy forces? Really? You have anything to back that up?
I notice you conveniently omitted the related point I had in tandem with this one that the Alpha design proved equally capable at receiving the revolutionary shadow system.

a control system that a teenage motorcycle gang member (Rook) could learn to utilize effectively enough to defeat enemy units in combat with minimal training by another pilot, himself not much older.

Again, that's not much different from the VF-1, where pilots recruited in wartime were given relatively little training and then pressed into service. (e.g. Max, Ben)

An (admittedly impromptu) training program set up aboard a warship with many veteran pilots and educational/simulator/trainer resources (notice Max talks up all the hours he had during this training) is actually very different from what Scott's crew had to deal with.

but considering the performance we actually see in the animation, your entire argument completely falls apart, which isn't surprising since it seems based on dislike rather than anything resembling evidence.

The performance we see in the animation isn't all that remarkable, and there is the question of the canon stats which make it quite clear that the Logan was swiftly outperformed by the non-transforming fighters and the AGACs.

The performance not being "all that remarkable" would still be a far cry from your own assessments of the design. As it is, Logan performance we see is typical-to-above-average in encounters with Robotech Master forces, which often scythed through human forces. As regards non-transforming fighters, I can't recall a single effective engagement waged by them against Robotech Master forces. The Ajax is supposed to be superior to the Logan; I'm not sure what the point is of stating that a successor is superior to an antecedent.

In a valiant (and probably futile) attempt to make this somewhat relevant to what the OP's thread is supposed to be about (at least, before we got carried away and quasi-hijacked it), I can't help but remind myself that this sort of dispute is another reason I've always avoided doing crossover games.

Cross overs definitely have their quirks. I may be lucky, but I haven't found it insurmountable as all that. I've been in plenty of games where most of the Palladium Megaverse was in play. That's part of the point of the Megaverse. I've found crossovers as much, or more, about GM and players and how they interact as anything.

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm so very sorry you're disquieted, but I don't owe anyone an authority they don't merit.

Ah, we're back to the old "I disagree with it, therefore it's wrong" practice the fandom has become so fond of. This attitude really confuses the daylights out of me. I can't say that I'd have a lot of use for Tommy either, but I've made peace with the unfortunate fact that he's been made the highest authority on what is and is not for Robotech.

As for Ghosts and SF-3's, its very funny you bring those up considering their lack of footage, and then lower down in your response dismiss Combats, Condors, and Bioroids because they aren't well attested in the footage.

I can say two things here... the first is that you might want to stop and review the first few episodes to see that, unlike the Condors and Combats, the Ghosts and Lancers actually have screen time. The second thing I'd like to say is that more than one Macross title shows that particular period of time, so there's no doubt of the presence and involvement of Lancer space fighters and Ghost UCAVs. It's a real shame we can't say the same for the Combat or Condor as allegedly working in concert with the Alpha. This "side story" thingy they're doing may correct that, but if it goes the way it seems to be going it'll be a few years yet and we probably won't see any Alphas either.

As for Betas, they have more capabilities than simple super parts, while also being easier and faster to mount on an Alpha than super parts are.

Granted, in theory attaching a Beta is faster... the catch here being that unless the Beta is crewed, all you've done is create a more wasteful version of super parts. Since the opening battle of the New Generation and RTSC (the actual military force use of the Beta) both seem to depict uncrewed Betas as standard operating practice...

Ha! Really? That's all you got? Its anime. Hero mecha seem indestructible, while Red Shirts get blown up if they're breathed on too hard in the background.

I'm not talking about hero mecha. I'm talking about scenes like the battles in "Broken Heart" where grunts in "kill me khaki" are beaten on by Zentradi (and their mecha!) and walk away.

So? In what way, shape, or form does this demonstrate any sort of backslide in technological capability? Your statement is an irrelevant tangent.

VF-1 can reach low orbit under its own power without the assistance of a booster unit, as seen in "Space Fold" and acknowledged in the Infopedia. There you have it. A clear-cut case of backsliding. You probably won't acknowledge it, but hey, there it is.

What are your qualifications for stating the Alpha's angular design is more radar vulnerable, as opposed to the Robotech source claiming the opposite?

This mystery source would be? Anyone with even a basic understanding of how real-world stealth technologies works could tell you that having all those wonderful flat panels is just going to increase the fighter's radar cross-section.

Any fighter can be made into a combat-effective main line drone fighter that can be fielded independently against enemy forces? Really? You have anything to back that up?

Apply the same technology we've already got for UCAVs in the real world to the target drones we've been using for live fire training exercises and you're pretty much there, baby.

I notice you conveniently omitted the related point I had in tandem with this one that the Alpha design proved equally capable at receiving the revolutionary shadow system.

There's nothing to indicate that a similar modification couldn't have been made to any other existing plane... certainly the VF-1 received upgrades to its active stealth systems back in the Macross continuity. Mind you, if you go by the TV series (which, as some have been so kind as to remind us, takes primacy over anything else), the "Shadow system" was nothing more than a redesign of the mecha's power plant to mask its distinctive emissions, not the kind of thing that would be hard to adapt to other mecha... at least, if you don't buy into the whole "VF-1 runs on fusion" thing. (in which case it's a non-issue anyway XD)

I'm sorry if you felt like I was ignoring you. I tend to ignore any assertion that's too flimsy to even warrant a refutation, or where I think the response should be obvious enough that I don't need to spell it out.

[Colonel Wolfe]

From the t.v. series and the RPG first edition at least we've got the VF series VINDICATOR

Vindicator isn't in the TV Show.

[ShadowLogan]

Seto:

Ah, I see... well, aside from the obvious questions of exceptions to the rule the only major issue I see with what you've done is your assumption that 1 metric ton = 1 Imperial ton, or that the Imperial ton was being used for the English measurements of weight (the common "ton" measurements used in the book are pretty much guaranteed to be the short ton, as that's the common meaning of "ton" in the US), so that extra 240lb in each Imperial ton will throw the measurement off.

I spent less than 1/2hr this morning and have updated the database table to include a modifer field (either 1 or 0.909091). Overall results do not appear to be to dissimiliar to before and could dissappear when the results rounded.

trying to mod the RT RPG to make it accurate-to-canon almost invariably results in someone disputing the accuracy or validity of the canon stats. After nearly eight years of being an active member of the Robotech fandom, I've yet to understand why the fans do this.

Per HG's rule for canon the show is the trump card, and the show does not support the view (in regards to) the Logan being out performed by nt-fighters per official/canon materials concerning the Logan. Not to mention that it's alt mode is called a Guardian and not as the Infopedia/2E RPG states a Battloid (prior to RT.com offical material in my experince did label it correctly). So atleast when it comes to the Logan they did not do their homework real well. Such an assessment may also be at the core of other canon-is-in-error instances.

I do no think the Logan was tossed aside either, it can be seen "hovering" in the background (in fighter mode) in a later episode in a cityscape. The role the Logan played in the ASC force structure was not a primary space combatant, so when the focus shifted to primarily space battles of course it would slip from view.

Though to get accurate to visual damages for an RPG one almost has to drop the dice roll in that regard and use flat damages.

We've seen the VF-1 survive beatings from Zentradi more or less unscathed, while the Alpha armor comes apart like paper after a single hit in passing from an Invid mecha's blunt claw... better armor is kind of a silly argument, isn't it?

There is a major problem with that assesment, the Invid Claw may be designed to rip open armor where as the Zentreadi is using more brute force.

You might notice a difference between stealth angular design (e.g. F-117A) and the blocky design of the Alpha... namely, the Alpha's square-on edges from the front and sides would make it an easier target for enemy radars, instead of having the slopes that would reflect radar waves away from the sending craft. Internal payload's kinda iffy too, when it's made up entirely of extremely short-ranged micro-missiles that, on an individual basis, appear no more powerful than those being used in man-portable rocket launchers...

It is possible the Alpha was not designed for all aspect stealth like the F-117A, but for certain angles.

Materials also play a role along with shaping.

Granted, in theory attaching a Beta is faster... the catch here being that unless the Beta is crewed, all you've done is create a more wasteful version of super parts. Since the opening battle of the New Generation and RTSC (the actual military force use of the Beta) both seem to depict uncrewed Betas as standard operating practice...

The Beta does not need a crewman, it can be setup as a drone platform. Issue resolved.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

We've seen the VF-1 survive beatings from Zentradi more or less unscathed

Umm, excuse me, but Breetai ripped the armour plate off the chest of a VF-1J last time I checked. He flung said VF-1J onto spikes and they penetrated all the way through the back of the mecha and OUT of the front of the chest plating.

http://www.robotechresearch.com/picture ... _large.jpg

[Seto Kaiba]

Also the Shadow Cloaking Device as his name explains is a radar deceipt system for fighters as it could the mounted on the VF-117 from the USAF(including refitted aerodynamics) and the revolution stops here

Eh... not quite. You're headed in the right direction though, so points for that.

Y'see... in ep83 "Reflex Point", we get a clear-cut explanation of the stealth technology that makes the "Shadow fighter" invisible to the Invid. The way it's explained makes it abundantly clear that the Shadow fighter relies on passive stealth, deriving its stealthiness from a design change in its protoculture generator that masks the distinctive emissions the Invid use to detect potential threats. The Infopedia article mentions "radar stealth", which I'd guess is probably achieved via a coating of radar-absorbent material. The latter is a token gesture at best, since the blocky shape of the Alpha's airframe is actively inimical to that kind of stealth technology. All those right angles and flat-vertical sections in the Alpha's design would make it even more prone to reflecting radar waves back to the sending craft than the lower-profile and more rounded bodies of conventional fighter aircraft.

In the disgracefully amateurish retcon-fest that was Shadow Chronicles, the passive stealth system the Shadow fighters use in the series was retconned into being some kind of active stealth system akin to a cloaking device. Of course, as some members have been kind enough to remind us, the TV series takes primacy in the event of contradiction, so we've inadvertently torpedoed a fairly significant plot point in RTSC.

the tactics assumed by the UEEF in the battle shown on the RT:TSC movie of face to face combat or punch me with all you've got,I'll take it,for what serves to you be invisible if don't take profit from such technology?

Excellent observation, I was wondering if anyone was going to drag that little problem up.

Here's where the Alpha's shortcomings really shine... you've given the fighter a stealth system that's only effective at long ranges, and then armed them exclusively with weaponry that necessitates engaging at close visual ranges. This, of course, means that the "Shadow fighter" stealth technology is next to useless, since any enemy who's had the sense to post lookouts or use LIDAR is probably going to see them coming anyway. Then their slow speed and exclusively short-range armament become a major liability, since neither the RT Masters nor the Invid appear to use guided missiles and prefer to use energy weapons and good old fashioned close combat. Even though a Beta theoretically could take long-range ordinance, we never once see them do so... which means someone at REF tactical is either dumb as a post (survey says: Rick) or asleep at the switch. Mind you, they don't seem to possess the high-yield ordinance you'd need to take out large groups of enemies or even enemy ships as we see the VF-1 do on many occasions, so the point may be moot anyway.

I spent less than 1/2hr this morning and have updated the database table to include a modifer field (either 1 or 0.909091). Overall results do not appear to be to dissimiliar to before and could dissappear when the results rounded.

'k, so long as you're taking care to make sure your data is accurate than I got no complaints.

Per HG's rule for canon the show is the trump card, and the show does not support the view (in regards to) the Logan being out performed by nt-fighters per official/canon materials concerning the Logan.

Correction... your interpretation of the show doesn't support that view. Clearly, those in charge of the franchise ascribe to a somewhat different interpretation, and their opinion is carrying a little more weight on account of them having complete control over continuity and whatnot...

There is a major problem with that assesment, the Invid Claw may be designed to rip open armor where as the Zentreadi is using more brute force.

The line art and animation shows an extremely blunt, rounded claw... one would think that Zentradi, who've been shown to be able to tear a VF-1 apart with their bare hands, would have at least even chances when they're fighting hand-to-hand or using mecha with arms made of armor materials and powered by potent actuators... at least the latter has some sharp edges to it.

It is possible the Alpha was not designed for all aspect stealth like the F-117A, but for certain angles.

I considered that... but looking at the airframe's shape, it's got flat, highly-reflective angles all around. It is the stuff a targeting radar's dreams are made of... it should be frighteningly easy to achieve a lock on an Alpha with a radar-guided missile.

The Beta does not need a crewman, it can be setup as a drone platform. Issue resolved.

But then you're either trusting your Betas to computer control via a ground base or starship with a signal that can be disrupted via jamming, or an artificial intelligence that has to take target priorities and commands remotely (again, vulnerable to jamming) unless your goal is "kill EVERYTHING in the immediate area".

We've seen the VF-1 survive beatings from Zentradi more or less unscathed

Umm, excuse me, but Breetai ripped the armour plate off the chest of a VF-1J last time I checked. He flung said VF-1J onto spikes and they penetrated all the way through the back of the mecha and OUT of the front of the chest plating.

Yes, and by Breetai's own admission he's tougher than the average Zentradi. We see quite a few examples of VF-1's engaging the Zentradi (and their mecha) in hand-to-hand combat and coming away unscathed in "Broken Heart", etc.

[Sgt Anjay]

I'm so very sorry you're disquieted, but I don't owe anyone an authority they don't merit.

Ah, we're back to the old "I disagree with it, therefore it's wrong" practice the fandom has become so fond of. This attitude really confuses the daylights out of me. I can't say that I'd have a lot of use for Tommy either, but I've made peace with the unfortunate fact that he's been made the highest authority on what is and is not for Robotech.

I like how every time this comes up you want to act like (a) its the first time we've gone over this, and (b) its some sort of phenomena unique to Robotech fans. I believe in the literary concept of Death of the Author, a widely held view, wherein the interpretation of a work by the audience to their own context is valid. Now, when comparing different interpretation you can look to at the source and reasons behind those interpretation ("thas uber!!1!" vs. "you can see x because y in the animation"), but corporate fiat does not trump reasoned analysis, especially when its not even the authors wielding it.

As for Ghosts and SF-3's, its very funny you bring those up considering their lack of footage, and then lower down in your response dismiss Combats, Condors, and Bioroids because they aren't well attested in the footage.

I can say two things here... the first is that you might want to stop and review the first few episodes to see that, unlike the Condors and Combats, the Ghosts and Lancers actually have screen time. The second thing I'd like to say is that more than one Macross title shows that particular period of time, so there's no doubt of the presence and involvement of Lancer space fighters and Ghost UCAVs. It's a real shame we can't say the same for the Combat or Condor as allegedly working in concert with the Alpha. This "side story" thingy they're doing may correct that, but if it goes the way it seems to be going it'll be a few years yet and we probably won't see any Alphas either.

Yes, we do see SF-3s and Ghosts get slaughtered in the first episode. Its more footage than Conbats and Condors, but not any more of an impressive showing, and just as quickly forgotten as the Veritech Fighter is thereupon shown operating solely with other Veritech Fighters. A Japanese Macross title has no bearing on Robotech and a discussion thereof.

As for Betas, they have more capabilities than simple super parts, while also being easier and faster to mount on an Alpha than super parts are.

Granted, in theory attaching a Beta is faster... the catch here being that unless the Beta is crewed, all you've done is create a more wasteful version of super parts. Since the opening battle of the New Generation and RTSC (the actual military force use of the Beta) both seem to depict uncrewed Betas as standard operating practice...

Assuming that a detached Beta cannot be recovered, or that it cannot be set to autopilot to a pre-set location for recovery (or doesn't make it back), then yes its likely more wasteful than super parts. Its a system with advantages and disadvantages, like any other.

Ha! Really? That's all you got? Its anime. Hero mecha seem indestructible, while Red Shirts get blown up if they're breathed on too hard in the background.

I'm not talking about hero mecha. I'm talking about scenes like the battles in "Broken Heart" where grunts in "kill me khaki" are beaten on by Zentradi (and their mecha!) and walk away.

Uh-huh. In that scene brownies can take it, in others they can't. The point is, simple determination of armor effectiveness is not going to be possible from just examining footage, because the footage is inherently, fragrantly, repeatedly, and demonstrably inconsistent across different appearances of the same mecha, let alone with the variables added to the mix when trying to do it across multiple mecha.

So? In what way, shape, or form does this demonstrate any sort of backslide in technological capability? Your statement is an irrelevant tangent.

VF-1 can reach low orbit under its own power without the assistance of a booster unit, as seen in "Space Fold" and acknowledged in the Infopedia. There you have it. A clear-cut case of backsliding. You probably won't acknowledge it, but hey, there it is.

Its rather inconvenient you clipped what I was responding to, because you rather significantly changed contexts here. You stated that the Alpha launching orbit to surface assaults but not being able to return to orbit is evidence of a backslide; with this statement, I guess you believe this because the VF-1 could reach low-orbit. For one, the Alpha is shown launching space-to-surface assaults from far, far beyond the ability of the VF-1 to reach, so even if it could reach the same low orbit the VF-1 could, this would still be an insurmountable distance away from its origin point. For two, Betas can be dispatched to retrieve Alphas thanks to their ability to pair up on the fly; no similar system exists for the VF-1. For three, the ships Alphas are launched from are entirely capable of following the fighters to a planet and retrieving Alphas directly; if the ships are destroyed, then the Alpha is in dire straights regardless of its service ceiling is, as any naval fighter is with no carrier to return to. Four, does the low orbit the VF-1 is capable of reaching let it actually escape its foes if they pursued? IIRC, it isn't far enough to let it escape Invid, which is the foe the Alpha faced, so the VF-1's vaunted low orbit capability is not even any more effective for the purpose of escape.

What are your qualifications for stating the Alpha's angular design is more radar vulnerable, as opposed to the Robotech source claiming the opposite?

This mystery source would be? Anyone with even a basic understanding of how real-world stealth technologies works could tell you that having all those wonderful flat panels is just going to increase the fighter's radar cross-section.

The "mystery source" is actually two: The Art of Robotech:The Shadow Chronicles, as well as the current edition of the RPG. I'll take them over your unsupported opinion.

Any fighter can be made into a combat-effective main line drone fighter that can be fielded independently against enemy forces? Really? You have anything to back that up?

Apply the same technology we've already got for UCAVs in the real world to the target drones we've been using for live fire training exercises and you're pretty much there, baby.

Oh. You're making it up. Gotcha.

I notice you conveniently omitted the related point I had in tandem with this one that the Alpha design proved equally capable at receiving the revolutionary shadow system.

There's nothing to indicate that a similar modification couldn't have been made to any other existing plane... certainly the VF-1 received upgrades to its active stealth systems back in the Macross continuity. Mind you, if you go by the TV series (which, as some have been so kind as to remind us, takes primacy over anything else), the "Shadow system" was nothing more than a redesign of the mecha's power plant to mask its distinctive emissions, not the kind of thing that would be hard to adapt to other mecha... at least, if you don't buy into the whole "VF-1 runs on fusion" thing. (in which case it's a non-issue anyway XD)

I'm sorry if you felt like I was ignoring you. I tend to ignore any assertion that's too flimsy to even warrant a refutation, or where I think the response should be obvious enough that I don't need to spell it out.

Well, again, not very relevant what happened in Macross, though I'm not in disagreement at all about the VF-1 being an adaptable design with legs when it came to longevity. I am asserting that poor designs are not adaptable and upgrades are rarely instituted if they're even possible. That this is not the case with the Alpha contradicts a frame of mind wherein the Alpha is poorly designed.

[Seto Kaiba]

[...] I believe in the literary concept of Death of the Author, a widely held view, wherein the interpretation of a work by the audience to their own context is valid.

"Death of the Author" is little more than a knee-jerk excuse used by people who can't cope with the idea that it's possible for them to be wrong when they misinterpret the message in an author's work. The reason I'm always surprised when people bust this particular juvenile excuse out is that, in my experience, Robotech fans tend to hold Carl Macek in rather high esteem. To then turn around and say "His interpretation of his story doesn't matter, I like my way better" is pretty much the exact opposite stance.

I'd hesitate to call any RT fan who ascribes to "Death of the Author" a Robotech fan. It'd be more accurate to say they're a fan of their own Robotech fan-fiction... and for my purposes, that makes holding any kind of debate with them a waste of time.

Unfortunately, as the Robotech fandom shrinks due to a combination of apathy on the part of fans and malice on the part of company volunteers, the percentage of fans with an agenda or fan theory to push goes up... which makes even talking about doing a crossover game exasperating and running a pure Robotech game an exercise in frustration.

Yes, we do see SF-3s and Ghosts get slaughtered in the first episode.

We see those SF-3A's doing a fair bit of damage to Zentradi starships... whereas we never see the mecha you're on about in action at all, and only witness stills of them getting wiped out by the Invid.

The "mystery source" is actually two: The Art of Robotech:The Shadow Chronicles, as well as the current edition of the RPG. I'll take them over your unsupported opinion.

Incidentally, my opinion is supported by the actual principles behind radar-based detection systems and passive stealth design in real-world fighter and bomber aircraft. The airframe design on the VF/A-6 Alpha is a stealth nightmare, with so many flat vertical surfaces that it'd be unusually easy to detect for a plane its size. The shape of the frame would neither reflect radar waves away from the sending station nor reflect them into space (in the way the B-2 Spirit and F-117A Nighthawk do), but rather provides a nice flat surface to give a nice clear radar return. I recommend you read up on the Lockheed Have Blue and Senior Trend projects, it'll surely prove educational for you.

[Colonel Wolfe]

The "mystery source" is actually two: The Art of Robotech:The Shadow Chronicles, as well as the current edition of the RPG. I'll take them over your unsupported opinion.

Incidentally, my opinion is supported by the actual principles behind radar-based detection systems and passive stealth design in real-world fighter and bomber aircraft. The airframe design on the VF/A-6 Alpha is a stealth nightmare, with so many flat vertical surfaces that it'd be unusually easy to detect for a plane its size. The shape of the frame would neither reflect radar waves away from the sending station nor reflect them into space (in the way the B-2 Spirit and F-117A Nighthawk do), but rather provides a nice flat surface to give a nice clear radar return. I recommend you read up on the Lockheed Have Blue and Senior Trend projects, it'll surely prove educational for you.

Funny how in the Same breath, one bashes "Death of an Author", Then goes on to Say the Canon Source is Wrong

Again Robotech =/= Real-World.... (Robotech never played on Mtv)