Are dopplegangers supernatural creatures?

[csbioborg]

Are dopplegangers supernatural creatures/creatures of magic?
One the one hand they have SN strenghth and feed off ambient ppe instead of consuming food
on the other hand they have low ppe and the fluff seems to indicate they can live on rifts earth unnoticed
vote and state your reasoning please

[Jorel]

Unless clearly stated otherwise, no.

[Steeler49er]

Reading the fluff text And description And all other descriptions of them every where else, leads one to say that they are SN

[csbioborg]

No, they are perfect doubles in everyway and no discription given states they are supernatural creatures or creatures of magic. The fluff also leads one to believe they are not either.

where does there SN strenghth derive from or the fact they don't need to eat or drink
if they are perfect doubles

[Nekira Sudacne]

They are perfect doubles in apperance.

They go unnoticed on Nightbane earth for the same reason Hounds do: There are far fewer people able to detect them.

Put Psi-stalkers and dog boys into mass numbers in nightbane: they couldn't keep secret for long.

[cornholioprime]

By your logic a psi-stalker is a supernatural creature because it feeds on ppe.

A Psi-Stalker ALSO needs to eat at least some food, albeit a greatly reduced amount compared to Mortals; a Doppelganger does not.

To add to this the doppleganger unlike SN creatures do not become mage-damage and are not immune to any MD attacks. The stats clear state they are identical in all ways except for SN strength.

Not quite.

They manifest spontaneously, according to their write-up. That alone strongly points to a supernatural point of origin.

Their immunity to being turned into a Vampire is another.

Can you name a Supernatural creature that is not MD or immune to most MD attacks (vampires and were-creatures fall into the immune category) ?

The Ritual Spell Zombie, for one (which can be damaged but not destroyed by mundane weapons). Maxpary Zombies, for another. Zavor for a third group.
I can vaguely recall but not name others at the moment, probably mostly in some of Kevin's early Books.


Any single one of their powers and abilities would classify a Doppelganger, IMO, as a being that is at least as quasi-supernatural as a True Atlantean or a Brodkil.
The entirety of their powers and abilities, as well as the means by which they come into existence, seems to me to point to the Doppelganger being a Supernatural Creature.

Low on the Supernatural Creature "totem pole," to be sure, but supernatural nevertheless.

[Mercdog]

I vote yes.

IMHO, it isn't a creature's gamebook stats that decide whether a creature is supernatural or not. It's the true nature of what it is, where it comes from, and what is its purpose .

Now, I don't have any related books with me, but IIRC:
What is it? A doppelganger is a creature that is an exact duplicate of a human being living on Earth that forms spontaneously in another dimension.

Where is it from? Place of origin is an alternate dimension known as the Nightlands, which is populated with several species of native supernatural creatures, and home to god-like beings known as Nightlords.

What does it do? Doppelgangers commonly kill the person they double in order to take over that person's life. In doing so, they serve to weaken the barriers between the Nightlands and another dimension so that their Nightlord Masters can breach dimensional barriers in order to conquer new worlds.

So yeah, they sounds like supernatural creatures to me.

[cornholioprime]

The Maxpary on Rifts Earth becomes MDC, The Zavor has immunity to most mdc and sdc weapons (which falls into the they have immunity to some forms of attacks) The ritual spell Zombie creates a creature that is immune to most mdc, physical attacks and it is stated as not a living supernatural being. Each example on Rifts earth becomes MDC or has a list of immunities to some attacks.
the Doppelganger is HP/SDC with no immunities or anything else to the matter, all Supernatural creatures become either mdc or have a list of immunities.

And without scouring my Books to find Supernatural/Creature of Magic exceptions to the "rule," I have but one question to ask:

What kind of non-supernatural creature manifests out of literally nothing, as the Doppelgangers do?

[The Beast]

Oh, I answered thinking you were talking about the magic spell, not the ones from NB.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The RCC
They are SN beings.
(why?) The text say they are.

The spell
They are magic.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Well, I'll start by saying they are clearly not Supernatural Beings. They're missing a few traits of supernatural beings, so that would rule that out. Even if it did say they were Supernatural Beings in Nightbane (though I can't find any reference saying that they are despite claims to the contrary, and I double checked Rifts Dark Conversion with no luck), Rifts: Ultimate Edition would overrule that, especially since this is the Rifts forum. As per R:UE (page 277), there are certain traits common to all Supernatural Beings, and Dopplegangers do not meet those traits.

With that said, the original question was if they are Supernatural Beings or Creatures of Magic. While in the past those terms were used interchangably, R:UE has since separated them and they are two different types of beings. From the evidence available, I'd say that Dopplegangers are likely Creatures of Magic.

1) Dragons are Creatures of Magic. Dragons don't really need to eat or drink and can live on ambient P.P.E. Dopplegangers do not need to eat or drink and can live on ambient P.P.E. This equation does not guarantee that a Doppleganger is a Creature of Magic, but it helps give support to the thought.

2) Vampires cannot turn Creatures of Magic. Dopplegangers cannot be turned by a Vampire. Again, this does not guarantee that Dopplegangers are Creatures of Magic, but it does help provide support to the theory.

3) Creatures of Magic have magic as part of their very essence. One of the theories behind Dopplegangers is that they are created from psychic energy. Note: Psychic energy is NOT the same as magic, though there are connections between P.P.E. (magic energy) and I.S.P. (psychic energy).

4) "Many creatures of magic also possess Supernatural Strength and can use their magic or innate magic abilities to turn invisible, heal, etc." Dopplegangers possess Supernatural Strength and can heal faster than mortal races.

5) Creatures of Magic are mortal, but tend to have longer life spans than humans. Dopplegangers are mortal and have longer life spans than humans.

6) Creatures of Magic think and feel like humans. Dopplegangers, once awakened, can fit in this category as well.

While none of these facts standing alone may prove it, when adding them together and looking at everything I think it lends strong support to the theory that Dopplegangers are Creatures of Magic. Since this is a Rifts thread, I tried to base most of my information from Rifts sources (primarily Rifts: Ultimate Edition). Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[cornholioprime]

Greetings and Salutations. Well, I'll start by saying they are clearly not Supernatural Beings. They're missing a few traits of supernatural beings, so that would rule that out. Even if it did say they were Supernatural Beings in Nightbane (though I can't find any reference saying that they are despite claims to the contrary, and I double checked Rifts Dark Conversion with no luck), Rifts: Ultimate Edition would overrule that, especially since this is the Rifts forum. As per R:UE (page 277), there are certain traits common to all Supernatural Beings, and Dopplegangers do not meet those traits.

With that said, the original question was if they are Supernatural Beings or Creatures of Magic. While in the past those terms were used interchangably, R:UE has since separated them and they are two different types of beings. From the evidence available, I'd say that Dopplegangers are likely Creatures of Magic.

1) Dragons are Creatures of Magic. Dragons don't really need to eat or drink and can live on ambient P.P.E. Dopplegangers do not need to eat or drink and can live on ambient P.P.E. This equation does not guarantee that a Doppleganger is a Creature of Magic, but it helps give support to the thought.

2) Vampires cannot turn Creatures of Magic. Dopplegangers cannot be turned by a Vampire. Again, this does not guarantee that Dopplegangers are Creatures of Magic, but it does help provide support to the theory.

3) Creatures of Magic have magic as part of their very essence. One of the theories behind Dopplegangers is that they are created from psychic energy. Note: Psychic energy is NOT the same as magic, though there are connections between P.P.E. (magic energy) and I.S.P. (psychic energy).

4) "Many creatures of magic also possess Supernatural Strength and can use their magic or innate magic abilities to turn invisible, heal, etc." Dopplegangers possess Supernatural Strength and can heal faster than mortal races.

5) Creatures of Magic are mortal, but tend to have longer life spans than humans. Dopplegangers are mortal and have longer life spans than humans.

6) Creatures of Magic think and feel like humans. Dopplegangers, once awakened, can fit in this category as well.

While none of these facts standing alone may prove it, when adding them together and looking at everything I think it lends strong support to the theory that Dopplegangers are Creatures of Magic. Since this is a Rifts thread, I tried to base most of my information from Rifts sources (primarily Rifts: Ultimate Edition). Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Unfortunately, no Creature Of Magic materializes out of literally nowhere, as Doppelgangers do.

Creatures Of Magic, apart from their innate abilities, share some aspects of Biology -for example, they are born and reproduce naturally. Not so Doppelgangers.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Withdraws my earlier statement about the RCC being SN.
While there is the Header of Supernatural Attributes, the text immediately following the header is not about SN attributes.

[The Beast]

Greetings and Salutations. Well, I'll start by saying they are clearly not Supernatural Beings. They're missing a few traits of supernatural beings, so that would rule that out. Even if it did say they were Supernatural Beings in Nightbane (though I can't find any reference saying that they are despite claims to the contrary, and I double checked Rifts Dark Conversion with no luck), Rifts: Ultimate Edition would overrule that, especially since this is the Rifts forum. As per R:UE (page 277), there are certain traits common to all Supernatural Beings, and Dopplegangers do not meet those traits.

With that said, the original question was if they are Supernatural Beings or Creatures of Magic. While in the past those terms were used interchangably, R:UE has since separated them and they are two different types of beings. From the evidence available, I'd say that Dopplegangers are likely Creatures of Magic.

1) Dragons are Creatures of Magic. Dragons don't really need to eat or drink and can live on ambient P.P.E. Dopplegangers do not need to eat or drink and can live on ambient P.P.E. This equation does not guarantee that a Doppleganger is a Creature of Magic, but it helps give support to the thought.

2) Vampires cannot turn Creatures of Magic. Dopplegangers cannot be turned by a Vampire. Again, this does not guarantee that Dopplegangers are Creatures of Magic, but it does help provide support to the theory.

3) Creatures of Magic have magic as part of their very essence. One of the theories behind Dopplegangers is that they are created from psychic energy. Note: Psychic energy is NOT the same as magic, though there are connections between P.P.E. (magic energy) and I.S.P. (psychic energy).

4) "Many creatures of magic also possess Supernatural Strength and can use their magic or innate magic abilities to turn invisible, heal, etc." Dopplegangers possess Supernatural Strength and can heal faster than mortal races.

5) Creatures of Magic are mortal, but tend to have longer life spans than humans. Dopplegangers are mortal and have longer life spans than humans.

6) Creatures of Magic think and feel like humans. Dopplegangers, once awakened, can fit in this category as well.

While none of these facts standing alone may prove it, when adding them together and looking at everything I think it lends strong support to the theory that Dopplegangers are Creatures of Magic. Since this is a Rifts thread, I tried to base most of my information from Rifts sources (primarily Rifts: Ultimate Edition). Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

I beg to differ. The original question asks if they're supernatural creatures. Not if they're that or creatures of magic. In fact, not event the poll question asks that, you have to get to the third question in the topic to get the "or are they creatures of magic?" part.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. First/original post of the thread ...

Are dopplegangers supernatural creatures/creatures of magic?

I'll note that the question kind of blends them together. And while I can agree if someone said they were neither, they are definitely not Supernatural Beings (read the description on page 277 of R:UE and it's clear they don't meet the criteria). They are not immortal, and they do not reincarnate in their home dimension when killed anywhere else. So they're either creatures of magic or they are neither at all. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Shark_Force]

Creatures Of Magic, apart from their innate abilities, share some aspects of Biology -for example, they are born and reproduce naturally. Not so Doppelgangers.

do they? didn't know faeries reproduce biologically.

[cornholioprime]

Creatures Of Magic, apart from their innate abilities, share some aspects of Biology -for example, they are born and reproduce naturally. Not so Doppelgangers.

do they? didn't know faeries reproduce biologically.

Yep.

Or at least, they are implied to reproduce naturally (one example comes from the Land of the Damned in the Palladium World, where there is a Faerie Civil War brewing because the Faerie Queene there was written as 'having left no heirs behind,' and having no kin, when she was assassinated by one of her own Royal Guard).

Although the lines remain blurred between Creatures of Magic and True Supernaturals, one of the main differences between the one and the other is that Creatures of Magic still follow some if not most if not all of the requisites that regular mortal beings do in terms of biological requirements; True Supernatural creatures, with very, very rare exceptions (e.g., the Undead Murder Wraith, which can starve to death after a fashion), do not.