Armies of the Southern Cross Space

[Jockitch74]

Anybody have any info on how many troops and mecha were deployed at the various moon bases and other off-world bases/installations?

[Jockitch74]

Maybe you can find that info in the old books,RPG's books 4 to 6. But it seems there's no official data for that and only estimations. The good side of that is that you can build and fill so many basis as you need them for your game setting. Getting fun across the universe(and killing some Masters in the way). In the t.v. series when the SDF-1 lands on Mars there you have and image of how an plannetary base looks like. That would help to you. Sure some people have better data than me for that question, all must been said. Hope I help you in some manner.

Yeah, I have all the rpg books (old and new). The only books that gives anything number wise is Return of the Masters Book 6 with Moon Base Copernicerius, but even that doesn't give hard number on the ASC, just mixed forces during the Invid occupation. Thanks for the help though.

[jaymz]

Best I can suggest is looking at RRG and how many ships were in servive prior/during the 2nd war. The moon bases didn't look like they were all that big overall and probably had less the Return of the Masters gives them since they would have to expand for surviors escaping the initial Invid Invasion.

[Jockitch74]

Best I can suggest is looking at RRG and how many ships were in servive prior/during the 2nd war. The moon bases didn't look like they were all that big overall and probably had less the Return of the Masters gives them since they would have to expand for surviors escaping the initial Invid Invasion.

True. The only other is moon base Archimedes, which is mentioned to have thousands of mecha and tens of thousands of troops only to be blown away in a protoculture fireball by the invid.

[jaymz]

Best I can suggest is looking at RRG and how many ships were in servive prior/during the 2nd war. The moon bases didn't look like they were all that big overall and probably had less the Return of the Masters gives them since they would have to expand for surviors escaping the initial Invid Invasion.

True. The only other is moon base Archimedes, which is mentioned to have thousands of mecha and tens of thousands of troops only to be blown away in a protoculture fireball by the invid.

Where do they mention that one cuz I can't remeber....

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

This is a list I compiled years ago of the minimum screen counts I could come up with watching the various episodes of The Masters War. One would imagine that the Earth forces have considerably more mecha and ships than just what can be counted.

Onboard Fighter Complements
Tokugawa's carry 1000
Tristar's carry 220
Ardennes carry 75
Nelson's carry 45
Gossamer's carry 12
Pegasus's carry 4

Eps. #37 Dana's Story
5 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers
2 Nelson-class Destroyers
5 Pegasus-class Assault Shuttles
Minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 485

Eps. #40 Volunteers
2 Pegasus-class Assault Shuttles
Minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 8

Eps. #42 Danger Zone
23 Gosammer-class Cargo Shuttles
Minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 276

Eps. #46 Stardust
3 Pegasus-class Assault Shuttles
Minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 12

Eps. #47 Outsiders
- Pioneer Mission
1 Tokugawa-class Battleship
Minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 1000

Eps. #48 Deja Vu
- Space Station Liberty Attack Wing
1 Nelson-class Destroyer Minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 45

Eps. #50 Triumvirate
34 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers
6 Nelson-class Destroyers
Minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 2820

Eps. #51 Clone Chamber
- Air Cavalry-1 Relief Fleet
5 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers
The minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 375

- Force returning from the Moon
7 Pegasus Assault Shuttles
Minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 28

Eps. #52 Love Song
2 Tristar-class Cruiser Leaders
6 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers
7 Nelson-class Destroyers
The minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 1205

Eps. #54 Mind Games
- Transport Squadron 85/Hyperspace Reinforcements
2 Tristar-class Cruiser Leaders
4 Ardennes-class Cruisers
4 Nelson-class Destroyer
14 Cheyenne-class Transports
The minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 920

- Planetary Assault Force
3 Tristar-class Cruiser Leaders
6 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers
9 Nelson-class Destroyers
The minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 1515

Eps. #58 Final Nightmare
2 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers
2 Nelson-class Destroyers
The minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 240

Eps. #60 Catastrophe
- Pioneer Mission/REF forces in orbit
1 Tokugawa-class Battleship
1 Tristar-class Cruiser Leader
1 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruiser
2 Nelson-class Destroyers
The minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 1385

- Final Space Offensive
1 Tokugawa-class Battleship
25 Tristar-class Cruiser Leaders
42 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers
6 Nelson-class Destroyers
The minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 9920


This brings around to a grand minimum total of:
3 Tokugawa-class Battleships
33 Tristar-class Cruiser Leaders
105 Ardennes-class Battlecruisers
39 Nelson-class
23 Gossamer-class Cargo Shuttles
15 Pegasus-class Assault Shuttles
14 Cheyenne-class Medium Transports
20,234 Fighters

[Jockitch74]

This is a list I compiled years ago of the minimum screen counts I could come up with watching the various episodes of The Masters War. One would imagine that the Earth forces have considerably more mecha and ships than just what can be counted.

Onboard Fighter Complements
Tokugawa's carry 1000
Tristar's carry 220
Ardennes carry 75
Nelson's carry 45
Gossamer's carry 12
Pegasus's carry 4

Eps. #37 Dana's Story
5 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers
2 Nelson-class Destroyers
5 Pegasus-class Assault Shuttles
Minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 485

Eps. #40 Volunteers
2 Pegasus-class Assault Shuttles
Minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 8

Eps. #42 Danger Zone
23 Gosammer-class Cargo Shuttles
Minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 276

Eps. #46 Stardust
3 Pegasus-class Assault Shuttles
Minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 12

Eps. #47 Outsiders
- Pioneer Mission
1 Tokugawa-class Battleship
Minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 1000

Eps. #48 Deja Vu
- Space Station Liberty Attack Wing
1 Nelson-class Destroyer Minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 45

Eps. #50 Triumvirate
34 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers
6 Nelson-class Destroyers
Minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 2820

Eps. #51 Clone Chamber
- Air Cavalry-1 Relief Fleet
5 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers
The minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 375

- Force returning from the Moon
7 Pegasus Assault Shuttles
Minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 28

Eps. #52 Love Song
2 Tristar-class Cruiser Leaders
6 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers
7 Nelson-class Destroyers
The minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 1205

Eps. #54 Mind Games
- Transport Squadron 85/Hyperspace Reinforcements
2 Tristar-class Cruiser Leaders
4 Ardennes-class Cruisers
4 Nelson-class Destroyer
14 Cheyenne-class Transports
The minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 920

- Planetary Assault Force
3 Tristar-class Cruiser Leaders
6 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers
9 Nelson-class Destroyers
The minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 1515

Eps. #58 Final Nightmare
2 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers
2 Nelson-class Destroyers
The minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 240

Eps. #60 Catastrophe
- Pioneer Mission/REF forces in orbit
1 Tokugawa-class Battleship
1 Tristar-class Cruiser Leader
1 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruiser
2 Nelson-class Destroyers
The minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 1400

- Final Space Offensive
1 Tokugawa-class Battleship
25 Tristar-class Cruiser Leaders
42 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers
6 Nelson-class Destroyers
The minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 9920


This brings around to a grand minimum total of:
3 Tokugawa-class Battleships
33 Tristar-class Cruiser Leaders
105 Ardennes-class Battlecruisers
39 Nelson-class
23 Gossamer-class Cargo Shuttles
15 Pegasus-class Assault Shuttles
14 Cheyenne-class Medium Transports
20,249 Fighters

Interesting breakdown. I'll keep this on hand, thanks alot. Do you have info on the actual troop compliments on base?

[Jockitch74]

Best I can suggest is looking at RRG and how many ships were in servive prior/during the 2nd war. The moon bases didn't look like they were all that big overall and probably had less the Return of the Masters gives them since they would have to expand for surviors escaping the initial Invid Invasion.

True. The only other is moon base Archimedes, which is mentioned to have thousands of mecha and tens of thousands of troops only to be blown away in a protoculture fireball by the invid.

Where do they mention that one cuz I can't remeber....

Well, the would because you're old Pg 76. RotM.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Interesting breakdown. I'll keep this on hand, thanks alot. Do you have info on the actual troop compliments on base?

Sadly, no. We can only guess based on the lineart size for the base that is implied to be Moon Base Luna.

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m77/ ... seLuna.jpg

[jaymz]

Best I can suggest is looking at RRG and how many ships were in servive prior/during the 2nd war. The moon bases didn't look like they were all that big overall and probably had less the Return of the Masters gives them since they would have to expand for surviors escaping the initial Invid Invasion.

True. The only other is moon base Archimedes, which is mentioned to have thousands of mecha and tens of thousands of troops only to be blown away in a protoculture fireball by the invid.

Where do they mention that one cuz I can't remeber....

Well, the would because you're old Pg 76. RotM.

Yeah yeah like you are SO much younger...good thign I am smarter and more wise....

Rabid's post above is a good for numbers and I compiled this quick from the RRG

Banshee/Gremlin Calss ships - 245 with a total of 5880 mecha

Geneva/Battle/Defender Class ships - 82 with a total of 5040 mecha

Tristar/Argonaut Class ships - 35 with a total of 6500 mecha

Toatl ships 362 with a total of 17420 mecha

This assumes the ASC didn;t actually use Tokugawa ships but we know that may not be true according the OSM and does notinclud anything smaller then the Banshee class (smallest warship used I belevie) so the ship numbers would be higher and mecha numbers probably closer to what Rabid had above.

[jaymz]

After checking tRotM I'd say during the 2nd war it wouldn;t have been any bigger than Copernicus is in teh book. Seems the expansion to size mention woudl have been post war buildup and expansion.

I;d say maybe prior to the 2nd war it may have ben on par wth a small REF base (Field Guide) Then during hte 2nd war expanded to the size of Copernicus and then furhter expanded as it was briefly described post 2nd war.

You could also check out the moon base in Macross II as a guide.

[taalismn]

Somewhere I had jotted down my figures for the defenses of the Shadow Chronciles Moonbase in terms of missile launchers and cannon that I could count....now I can't find 'em

[jaymz]

After checking tRotM I'd say during the 2nd war it wouldn;t have been any bigger than Copernicus is in teh book. Seems the expansion to size mention woudl have been post war buildup and expansion.

I;d say maybe prior to the 2nd war it may have ben on par wth a small REF base (Field Guide) Then during hte 2nd war expanded to the size of Copernicus and then furhter expanded as it was briefly described post 2nd war.

You could also check out the moon base in Macross II as a guide.

But this moon base seems is not enough large to accomodate all the spaceships for a heavy fleet detachment. Also in the Chronicles film, where is the SDF-4 Liberator stored?. I am not able to assume is "inside" the Moon. Humanity doesn't have enough resources at the Moon base to do such engineering work and they do not expect to store a ship larger than the SDF-3 which is probably docked on the Robotech Factory or at Space Station Liberty when is not on duty.
For sure he must refit the Macross II stats for the double of mechas and soldiers and don't forgetting to include Power Armors and hover vehicles and a lot of shipyards for a space fleet.

ACtually the only thign he woudl need to add are docking facilities but for mecha numbers what I dsaid is quite plausible since the moon bases were never truly there to be a wartime front. You can tell by watchign The Masters portion of the series that the bases were pretty over taxed when the ships of Emersons fleet arrived there. That tells me it in fact isn;t big enough to be a major base but it could be on par with a small ref base or copernicus, just with some docking facilites. Also Copernicus has some docking facilites that coudl have been expanded to fit the profile of TSC. What islisted at the base in tRotM is what they presently have at the base, not what it completely capable of housing.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

The southern cross moon base seems to be smaller than the rebuild that became the new generation moon base (anything that fills a lunar crater has got to be huge).

Different bases. ALuCE-1 is, as per visuals, on the near side of the moon. The far side of the moon base is never named, but we only ever hear of one other base: Luna. Its a good bet that the New Generation base in Moon Base Luna.

[Beatmeclever]

This is a list I compiled years ago of the minimum screen counts I could come up with watching the various episodes of The Masters War. One would imagine that the Earth forces have considerably more mecha and ships than just what can be counted.

Spoiler:

Onboard Fighter Complements
Tokugawa's carry 1000
Tristar's carry 220
Ardennes carry 75
Nelson's carry 45
Gossamer's carry 12
Pegasus's carry 4

Eps. #37 Dana's Story
5 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers
2 Nelson-class Destroyers
5 Pegasus-class Assault Shuttles
Minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 485

Eps. #40 Volunteers
2 Pegasus-class Assault Shuttles
Minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 8

Eps. #42 Danger Zone
23 Gosammer-class Cargo Shuttles
Minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 276

Eps. #46 Stardust
3 Pegasus-class Assault Shuttles
Minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 12

Eps. #47 Outsiders
- Pioneer Mission
1 Tokugawa-class Battleship
Minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 1000

Eps. #48 Deja Vu
- Space Station Liberty Attack Wing
1 Nelson-class Destroyer Minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 45

Eps. #50 Triumvirate
34 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers
6 Nelson-class Destroyers
Minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 2820

Eps. #51 Clone Chamber
- Air Cavalry-1 Relief Fleet
5 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers
The minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 375

- Force returning from the Moon
7 Pegasus Assault Shuttles
Minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 28

Eps. #52 Love Song
2 Tristar-class Cruiser Leaders
6 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers
7 Nelson-class Destroyers
The minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 1205

Eps. #54 Mind Games
- Transport Squadron 85/Hyperspace Reinforcements
2 Tristar-class Cruiser Leaders
4 Ardennes-class Cruisers
4 Nelson-class Destroyer
14 Cheyenne-class Transports
The minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 920

- Planetary Assault Force
3 Tristar-class Cruiser Leaders
6 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers
9 Nelson-class Destroyers
The minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 1515

Eps. #58 Final Nightmare
2 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers
2 Nelson-class Destroyers
The minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 240

Eps. #60 Catastrophe
- Pioneer Mission/REF forces in orbit
1 Tokugawa-class Battleship
1 Tristar-class Cruiser Leader
1 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruiser
2 Nelson-class Destroyers
The minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 1385

- Final Space Offensive
1 Tokugawa-class Battleship
25 Tristar-class Cruiser Leaders
42 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers
6 Nelson-class Destroyers
The minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 9920

This brings around to a grand minimum total of:
3 Tokugawa-class Battleships
33 Tristar-class Cruiser Leaders
105 Ardennes-class Battlecruisers
39 Nelson-class
23 Gossamer-class Cargo Shuttles
15 Pegasus-class Assault Shuttles
14 Cheyenne-class Medium Transports
20,234 Fighters

Rapid, although I typically respect your authority when it comes to the ASC, I must disagree with your numbers. It cannot be proven that the ships seen in each episode are not seen again in later episodes unless they are destroyed in said episode (I have not re-watched in some time). Therefore, using the numbers given above, we have to go with the most of each ship seen in any episode. That gives these numbers:
ASC Orbital Force
42 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers
25 Tristar-class Cruiser Leaders
7 Nelson-class Destroyers
5 Pegasus-class Assault Shuttles
23 Gosammer-class Cargo Shuttles

Pioneer Mission
1 Tokugawa-class Battleship

Space Station Liberty Attack Wing
1 Nelson-class Destroyer

Air Cavalry-1 Relief Fleet
5 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers

Force returning from the Moon
7 Pegasus Assault Shuttles

Transport Squadron 85/Hyperspace Reinforcements
2 Tristar-class Cruiser Leaders
4 Ardennes-class Cruisers
4 Nelson-class Destroyer
14 Cheyenne-class Transports

Planetary Assault Force
3 Tristar-class Cruiser Leaders
6 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers
9 Nelson-class Destroyers

Grand Minimum total by numbers given of:
1 Tokugawa-class Battleship (-2)
57 Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers (-48)
30 Tristar-class Cruiser Leaders (-3)
21 Nelson-class Destroyers (-18)
14 Cheyenne-class Transports (No Change)
12 Pegasus-class Assault Shuttles (-3)
23 Gosammer-class Cargo Shuttles (No Change)
Minimum Veritech/Starfighter complement of this force: 13,144 (-7,090)

This is not intended to start a flame war. I just wanted to try to clarify what was said. If these craft were destroyed in these episodes it will, of course, alter the numbers.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Rapid, although I typically respect your authority when it comes to the ASC, I must disagree with your numbers. It cannot be proven that the ships seen in each episode are not seen again in later episodes unless they are destroyed in said episode (I have not re-watched in some time).

[Colonel Wolfe]

honestly there is no proof to either side, if they are the same ships or not the same ships. his number simply reflect the Minimum numbers seen in each episode, and the grand total fleet seen in the entire arc. and even then, this only proves the minimum numbers. and its never exactly states they have 100% of the entire military in any engagement.

[jaymz]

honestly there is no proof to either side, if they are the same ships or not the same ships. his number simply reflect the Minimum numbers seen in each episode, and the grand total fleet seen in the entire arc. and even then, this only proves the minimum numbers. and its never exactly states they have 100% of the entire military in any engagement.

That's why I myself use the RRG numbers....

[rtsurfer]

While I greatly appreciate RSCF's efforts (especially since I no longer have the patience to sit and count ships) and knowledge pertaining to Southern Cross/Robotech Masters Saga, Beatmeclever is correct concerning a methodology. Only the single largest number of each class seen in a single scene plus those previously destroyed should be counted; Otherwise, there's a potential overlap (and inflating) of numbers. So the best anyone can really come up with is an absolute minimal estimate.

The returning fleet/ship appearances are tricky as they technically belong to the REF or at the very least are not part of Earth's dedicated defensive forces. Count them for total forces fighting over Earth (don't forget the Garfish), or exclude them for a count of dedicated Earth Defensive Forces.

[Colonel Wolfe]

but even then your Assuming that they are the same ships in each engagement. Making no assumptions, and giving pure numbers, RSCF has a correct minimum estimate of ships displayed in on screen encounters. BMC's numbers assume the same ships are present in each and every engagement, adding additional ships to replace the ones destroyed. The simple fact the ASc is fielding additional vessels to replace the ones lost, one could easily assume that they have larger numbers of reserve ships. but again that an assumption, and has no bearing on actual date in the series.

[rtsurfer]

^And you're assuming that every ship seen onscreen is a unique vessel, what are the odds of only seeing each ship onscreen once during the entire saga? BTW, my methodology isn't an assumption, its a clear way of establishing the MINIMUM size of Earth's home fleet(s). Any numbers beyond those are the assumptions.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

^And you're assuming that every ship seen onscreen is a unique vessel, what are the odds of only seeing each ship onscreen once during the entire saga? BTW, my methodology isn't an assumption, its a clear way of establishing the MINIMUM size of Earth's home fleet(s). Any numbers beyond those are the assumptions.

Notice that I didn't include the Triumvirate numbers in Clone Chamber nor the Love Song numbers in Mind Games. I also didn't include the Mind Games numbers in Final Nightmare, Catastrophe nor any other episode which used the same recycled footage. I welcome anyone who would like to sit down and watch said episodes to do so and verify this.

[Tiree]

RSCF - do you have the numbers of destroyed combat vessels for each episode.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

RSCF - do you have the numbers of destroyed combat vessels for each episode.

Heh, no. The Liberty Observer Group lost one Ardennes at the end of Dana's Story. Major Carpenter's Tokugawa-class Battleship was intentionally blown up after she rammed one of the Masters' city-ships in Outsiders. The single Nelson shown at the beginning of Deja Vu had suffered apparent catastrophic hull failure. At least 1/3rd of the Ardennes and Nelson's in Triumvirate were destroyed according to Captain Nordoff. Air Cavalry-1 lost one Ardennes in Clone Chamber. That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

[ShadowLogan]

RSCF - do you have the numbers of destroyed combat vessels for each episode.

Heh, no. The Liberty Observer Group lost one Ardennes at the end of Dana's Story. Major Carpenter's Tokugawa-class Battleship was intentionally blown up after she rammed one of the Masters' city-ships in Outsiders. The single Nelson shown at the beginning of Deja Vu had suffered apparent catastrophic hull failure. At least 1/3rd of the Ardennes and Nelson's in Triumvirate were destroyed according to Captain Nordoff. Air Cavalry-1 lost one Ardennes in Clone Chamber. That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

I have some numbers from a visual only count I did last summer (presuming there wasn't any blink and miss it moments):
Pegasus Shuttles:
4 Destroyed (1 per ep: "Dana's Story", "Southern Cross" (may be a different class of shuttle), "Volunteers", "Clone Chamber"), 1 Damaged ("Volunteers", though still functional)

Roc Shuttles (all in "Danger Zone"):
22 Destroyed, 1 Questionable (may/may not have been destroyed but it was hit)

Shuttle (15th's used):
1 Damaged ("Danger Zone", though still functional)

ASC Cruisers (in general I don't have a break down):
Destroyed:
3 in "Triumvirate", 1 in "Clone Chamber", 2 in "Mind Games", 1 in "Final Nightmare", 1 in "Catastrophe"

Tokowuaga:
1 Destroyed in "Outsiders"

Bioroid Assault Ships:
1 Damaged in "False Start", "Southern Cross", and "Triumvirate"
3 Destroyed in "Volunteers" (presuming it isn't a mini-version), 1 in "Clone Chamber", 1 in "Invid Connection"

Robotech Master Transport:
1 Damaged in "Half-Moon"

Robotech Master Destroyer:
2 Destroyed in "The Hunters"

Robotech Master Mothership:
1 Damaged in "Danger Zone", "Star Dust" (Dana's shot did appear to rock the ship), "Mind Games". With the exception of "Star Dust" (IIRC) all of these refer to the same ship that is later destroyed in "Crisis Point"
1 Questionable Destruction (IMO) in "Outsiders" by the Toko.
1 Destroyed in "Catastrophe"

[Sgt Anjay]

Couple of random points.

Those minimum numbers don't seem to take into account we see Tokugawas well after Carpenter's ship is very visibly blown all to hell, so the latter Tokugawa are very clearly NOT Carpenter's ship; in other words there was definitely more than one Tokugawa seen in the series.

Space Station Liberty was a Robotech Factory Satellite. A Robotech Factory Satellite! Ignoring that when considering the solar system's numbers seems rather counterproductive.

[rtsurfer]

^IIRC, there is a Tokugawa hybrid shown fighting with Earth's defensive forces. In the final episodes there is a Tokugawa with the REF fleet in space and another on the surface.

Based on Carpenter's designation and the design of the vessels, I am inclined to believe the Tokugawa's are assigned to the REF/Pioneer Mission as recon and rapid response/deployment heavy carriers.

I suspect the one we see on the surface is unloading REF mecha and soldiers as planet based reinforcements (Wolfe?). It probably launched with Earth's fleet(s) for the final significant space battle.

Once out of system forces return (REF/Pioneer) it becomes a bit difficult to distinguish which were originally part of Earth's defensive forces and which have joined up with them.

How much room is actually left in Space Station Liberty with all of those Colony/Neutron S shells stored there? Especially since they are apparently in the process of converting others not seen to either Neutron S planet busters or Shadow Dimension Fortress Colony vessels.

The Shadow Chronicles' moonbase is actually a giant corkscrew that cut itself right into that creator with a few good spins

[Sgt Anjay]

^IIRC, there is a Tokugawa hybrid shown fighting with Earth's defensive forces. In the final episodes there is a Tokugawa with the REF fleet in space and another on the surface.

Based on Carpenter's designation and the design of the vessels, I am inclined to believe the Tokugawa's are assigned to the REF/Pioneer Mission as recon and rapid response/deployment heavy carriers.

I suspect the one we see on the surface is unloading REF mecha and soldiers as planet based reinforcements (Wolfe?). It probably launched with Earth's fleet(s) for the final significant space battle.

Once out of system forces return (REF/Pioneer) it becomes a bit difficult to distinguish which were originally part of Earth's defensive forces and which have joined up with them.

How much room is actually left in Space Station Liberty with all of those Colony/Neutron S shells stored there? Especially since they are apparently in the process of converting others not seen to either Neutron S planet busters or Shadow Dimension Fortress Colony vessels.

The Shadow Chronicles' moonbase is actually a giant corkscrew that cut itself right into that creator with a few good spins

I love the length you went through to create a scenario wherein ships on Earth fighting for Earth are not Earth's forces, as would be the assumption from just watching the episode. Rather, by the weaving of a tapestry of a backstory out of whole cloth in contradiction of Occam's Razor you somehow posit that those ships need to be proven to be Solar System forces.

This is particularly grievous in light of the fact that the number of on-screen ships trends upwards as the Masters saga goes on. This points to us bit by bit seeing more and more of Earth's fleet as the war escalates, and the war clearly does go through an escalation process. It does not point to Earth's fleet being a small flotilla of ships committed all at once to the fight and these same ships being seen again and again over the course of the episodes.

Then there's the fact that, at Emerson's insistence, Earth's fleet had been demonstrably avoiding all-or-nothing, 100% battle royales to the death akin to the sort in Force of Arms. This was a major plot point, and a clear and simple reason for the very trend I just mentioned. The fact that this avoidance of last stand mindset was abandoned (over Emerson's objection) for the last battle of the war follows perfectly and organically from the plot and storytelling. These final episodes make a distinctly showing previously unseen Earth forces; they show Desert Division troopers, Forest Division, etc. Why would this then be interspersed with ships from some other forces? No, again, the clearest and simplest explanation is that they're demonstrating to us how far Earth's back is to the wall by showing us that they're pulling out all Earth has for this battle.

And yes, I'm sure Neutron S missiles took up lots of room. Luckily, Neutron S missiles didn't exist during the 2nd Robotech War, and they sure didn't exist prior to the 2nd Robotech War, when most of the ships that made up the Earth Defense Forces fleet would have been cranked out. And its pretty doubtful that the defense of the system that Space Station Liberty was assigned to would be neglected by Space Station Liberty, especially for colony ships that would then need escort...which would mean construction of military ships. No, colony ship construction would at best be alongside military construction; it wouldn't trump it.

[rtsurfer]

I love the length you went through to create a scenario wherein ships on Earth fighting for Earth are not Earth's forces, as would be the assumption from just watching the episode. Rather, by the weaving of a tapestry of a backstory out of whole cloth in contradiction of Occam's Razor you somehow posit that those ships need to be proven to be Solar System forces.

Wow, the length I went through to create a scenario and weaving of a tapestry of a backstory out of whole cloth, really?

Excuse me, but we see ships returning to Earth from deep space earlier in the saga. Surely some if not all of those ships are from the REF/Pioneer Mission and are fighting with Earth's defensive forces until the final episodes (assuming they weren't already destroyed). In fact, Carpenter and his aide aboard Recon One (a Tokogawa) mention they have been away from Earth on a 15 year mission. Also, TNG suggest REF forces (Wolfe for example) arrived near the end of the second saga (possibly in waves) to help defend Earth and we see a fleet in space (with a Tokogawa) AFTER Earth's defensive fleet has returned to Earth. These are not unreasonable conclusions based on what is said and shown during the second and third sagas. From these observations I innocently speculate the Tokogawa on Earth is a REF ship dropping off Wolfe and his forces.

As for your comments on Space Station Liberty... IINM, Liberty is never identified as a Robotech factory satellite (so your construction arguments are mute). We are never told when the Neutron S Missiles were created or known to exist. Just as we are never told when and where Earth's Defensive Forces were constructed. Is Liberty shown defending Earth's system during TRM, isn't it described more as an observation and relay station?

I hope you realize the comments in my previous post concerning Shadow Chronicles' Space Station Liberty and moonbase were meant to be absurd. If that wasn't obvious then I apologize.

[ShadowLogan]

Excuse me, but we see ships returning to Earth from deep space earlier in the saga.

Aside from Carpenter's ship, the only other Terran force returning from "deep space" was Transport Squadron 85 (IIRC the Number) AFAIK. TS85 was the only one shown/mentioned to be returning from deep space during TRM saga.

I don't think that TS85 was Pioneer/REF, but from somewhere else in the Solar System. Yes they are considered returning from "deep space", but that term was also used for the SDF-1's misfold to Pluto in the previous saga so that leaves a lot of room for the fleet to come from.

Now the Garfish crew and the Wolfe's back stories in NG do suggest that they where involved in the war. However I have to wonder if it was more of a cleaning up operation with Tirolians who kept fighting after the events of the last ep. in TRM (in a way similiar to TMS saga post FoA) OR the Robotech Elders arrived. IINM the Elders did not join the Masters fleet in the
Solar System (per the exchange in Ep37) and are almost never mentioned again (the only instance I recall was really ambigous IIRC). In either case the REF might have returned with elements to assist the exhausted ASC (narrator's comments concerning the Invid Invasion and the ASC) allowing them to have helped in the war.

We are never told when the Neutron S Missiles were created or known to exist.

Within the 85ep series that would be correct, but the TSC continuity (ie current official one) covered that in PttSC I thought. The only other timeline (I'm familiar with) that suggests a creation date would be the Novels, but they have the REF/Earth relationship as much different.

[rtsurfer]

I don't think that TS85 was Pioneer/REF, but from somewhere else in the Solar System. Yes they are considered returning from "deep space", but that term was also used for the SDF-1's misfold to Pluto in the previous saga so that leaves a lot of room for the fleet to come from.

If TS85 was inside Earth's solar system why did it take them almost a year and a half (IIRC, by rt.com's timeline) to fold back to Earth as they arrived from hyperspace in response to a mayday from the original attack on Liberty?

Now the Garfish crew and the Wolfe's back stories in NG do suggest that they where involved in the war. However I have to wonder if it was more of a cleaning up operation with Tirolians who kept fighting after the events of the last ep. in TRM (in a way similiar to TMS saga post FoA) OR the Robotech Elders arrived....

Possibly, although IIRC the old soldiers indicated they stopped fighting after the Masters' war when Leonard and his men were killed. Why mention the death of Leonard unless the war ended at that time or shortly there after. Add to that a potentially quick arrival of the Invid, Musica and the Masters seemed to believe the Invid were already on there way and once the nebula detected the spores this was almost certainly true or about to be.

[Sgt Anjay]

There is no reason to believe any ships not identified as Expeditionary are Expeditionary, especially when ships arriving from external locations are pointed out as being so. Why would these ships be exempted from that all of a sudden? As I said before, this is doubly so since those ships are shown while we are being demonstrated to that Earth is ramping up every thing it has, right down to a Desert Division squad at a random undisclosed outpost among sand dunes. Within the context of the episode, those ships being Expeditionary would contradict the point of the scene, making an assumption of an Expeditionary nature even farther out there. Therefore yes, claiming they are Expeditionary when (a)previous ships of deep space origin are pointed out as such and (b)it contradicts the context wherein they are shown, is creating out of whole cloth.

As to the nature of Space Station Liberty, that is fully explained within Shadow Chronicles and its ancillary sources, as is the origin of the Neutron S missiles, so my arguments continue to be based on sources rather than wild mass guessing. As to Liberty defending Earth's system, in the very first episode of the Masters Saga Liberty defends itself directly from a surprise probing attack by the Masters in the opening move of the Second Robotech War. It is described as Earth's critical sole link to the Expeditionary force but never as mere observers, nor is its purpose spoken of as just a relay.

[ShadowLogan]

Possibly, although IIRC the old soldiers indicated they stopped fighting after the Masters' war when Leonard and his men were killed. Why mention the death of Leonard unless the war ended at that time or shortly there after. Add to that a potentially quick arrival of the Invid, Musica and the Masters seemed to believe the Invid were already on there way and once the nebula detected the spores this was almost certainly true or about to be.

So Leonard could not theoretically be rectoned to have survived the HQ attack only to die later dealing with cleanup against the Masters prior to the Invid arrival? (Edwards is said to have survived the attack on the GC, and we know Lisa did, IIRC Adm. Hayes Cmd Center crew might qualify here).

While the Masters knew the Invid where on their way I don't recall them saying when the Invid would arrive. Their deadline to the ASC appears to have had more to do with their PC levels than the Invid arrival. (RT.com timeline put the Invid Arrival sometime in 2031, so 6-18months roughly plenty of time to have a short time period for a continued Masters War).

If TS85 was inside Earth's solar system why did it take them almost a year and a half (IIRC, by rt.com's timeline) to fold back to Earth as they arrived from hyperspace in response to a mayday from the original attack on Liberty?

Well the Solar System is pretty big, you have the Kuiper Belt (with Pluto on the inner edge), but then farther things like the Heliopause and the Ort Cloud (believed it may extend almost half-way to Alpha Centauri).

Then you have to consider organization. How long would it take for the facility(s) they came from to organize a meaninful force. What good would it have done them to send in a force(s) to weak to really matter? Or even a force that is arriving 1.5years after the mayday which might no longer be necessary given the trip time. It took the REF 4 years (per RT.com timeline) to organize Scott's Fleet after Lancer's, which was ~7years after the Invasion. So 1.5years doesn't seem to bad considering the distances.

Then there is the possibility that when RT was written (1985) the writters had a different timeline in mind than RT.com (post 2001).

[rtsurfer]

Where was Carpenters' Tokogawa Recon One from, its identified as an attack wing of Pioneer Mission, the SDF-3, AND Space Station Liberty?

Did the fleet in orbit DISREGARDED DIRECT ORDERS for all ships to return to Earth, where as you put it Earth is ramping up everything it has for its last desperate battle? Sure, if you disregard potential cues from other TRM and TNG dialogue, but whatever.

Liberty is an observation post and relay (the critical sole link) no matter what else you think it is. Where does Liberty defend the [solar] system as you alleged previously?


Don't we see Leonard vaporized by the equivalent of a nuclear blast directly on his position? Where as the Grand Canyon is a huge underground fortress with apparently varied degrees of shielding between sections.

Yeah, I shouldn't have used rt.com's timeline as a reference. So it took them about 8 months instead (the time span I proposed to rt.com when we were helping revise the timeline to fit the 85 episodes better). But the time period doesn't really matter anymore since your definition of the solar system could be incredibly huge and we have redtape to consider as well.

[quote="ShadowLogan"Then there is the possibility that when RT was written (1985) the writters had a different timeline in mind than RT.com (post 2001).[/quote]
A strong possibility. Some might even say the 85 and rt.com era writers had a number of differences in mind; therefore, rt.com era material may not necessarily be reliable as sources (bad speculation is still bad speculation even with HGs stamp of approval).

[Sgt Anjay]

Where was Carpenters' Tokogawa Recon One from, its identified as an attack wing of Pioneer Mission, the SDF-3, AND Space Station Liberty?

If we're talking about factors in any way relevant to the discussion, Carpenter's ship seemed to be outside the standard UEDF arsenal, and it makes sense to leave it off the lists of Earth's ships. TS85 has been debated and will be debated nigh unto infinity, but I can understand reasonable doubt there. What identification do you have to disqualify any other ship at all as Earth's? Thus far all you have is that Expeditionary forces fought Masters. That's all well and good, but the Masters Saga wasn't about the Expeditionary force, the scenes in question make no mention of the Expeditionary force, and instead make a point of being about Earth, because that's what Masters Saga was about, the 2nd Robotech War on Earth. So there's no evidence with which to swipe those ships and re-purpose them as Expeditionary, no particular reason to, and it contradicts both context and narrative to do so.

Liberty is an observation post and relay (the critical sole link) no matter what else you think it is. Where does Liberty defend the [solar] system as you alleged previously?

Where is it mentioned as an observation post? It would be silly for it to be sitting out there by Saturn and not keeping watch, of course, but where is its purpose stated to be that of observation post? It is a relay, I've already mentioned that the footage goes to great lengths to point this out. It is not said, though, that Liberty is just a relay. And again, what I think it is, is based on Shadow Chronicles and its sources, which unambiguously declare Liberty one of humanity's group of captured Robotech Factory Satellites. So then, what sources are backing any alternate interpretations to Liberty's true nature?

[rtsurfer]

Personally, I believe the UEDF had a considerable fleet, much larger than depicted onscreen. I just don't believe counting every single capital ship seen onscreen gives an accurate depiction of their numbers, nor do I assume every vessel seen in TRM is UDEF when TNG alludes to non-UEDF forces being involved in battles with the Robotech Masters.

It is a valid argument that none of the vessels depicted in TRM were actually from the REF/Pioneer, and the saga is about Earth; however, it still seems disingenuous to claim the saga is only about the UEDF when Earth did send distress calls to the REF/P, felt it was important to reestablish communication with the REF/P, at least one REF/P ship did respond, UEDF command was upset that it came from the REF/P alone, and there is dialogue in TNG establishing REF/P involvement in the Masters' war.

I can't recall where Liberty is referred to as an observation post, my bad, I suppose I was thinking of the "Liberty Observer" designation. I don't recall ever saying Liberty was JUST a relay although the 85 episodes are very unclear exactly what Liberty was.

I have only watched Shadow Chronicles once and haven't read any of the related SC based materials so I don't really know what they say about Liberty or much of anything else.
BTW, I just love how the UDEF spent all the time and money to re-sculpt Liberty into the symbol for Shadow Chronicles LOL Personally I would have put the effort into building more armaments to defend Earth.

A possible correction to something I said earlier, Wolfe was with the first REF/P wave. I had placed him with the Tokogawa's in the final episodes of TRM, if the war ended shortly after that final depicted battle then he was likely either with TS85 or some unseen REF/P fleet.

[ShadowLogan]

Don't we see Leonard vaporized by the equivalent of a nuclear blast directly on his position? Where as the Grand Canyon is a huge underground fortress with apparently varied degrees of shielding between sections.

I don't recall that specifically (Leonard shown being vaporized) let me double check the Legacy and OSM DVDs for the episode in question....

We see the building destroyed by a strong blast, but just prior to that Leonard was in his office (???, I thought he was in the CC). So no we don't technically see Leonard vaporized by the blast, but we don't see him in the Command Center like I thought he was (which would have a better chance of surviving if its underground). So unless his upper story office has some type of blast protection I don't see him surviving. Such a feature could be rectoned in though (my basic point)...

Some independant things have occured to me though:
What if the idea of seperate militaries is valid and the REF/Pioneerers' tended to think of the ASC as Leonard's "boys" even after his death? I am thinking of something along the novels RDF/GMP vs ASC riviallry. Yes the ASC expected assistance from the Pioneer Mission, but that could be the result of how they where organized (more as a check and balance on the other, but it war footing they work together).

Just how far away did TS85 travel from and how where they notified since IIRC the Masters where jamming Earth/Liberty links initially for (what RT.com puts at) 6months. IIRC they where jamming at Liberty to. If the Jamming did not cover conventional radio and the TS85 originates somewhere in the Ort Cloud it might explain the long time span (per RT.com).

A remote possibility is that someone else named Leonard was the one being refered to by the Old Timers. Either an Imposter or another individual with the same last name that assumed the title (I forget the exact quote they use so this might not even need to be a factor) since the ASC leadership appears to have been destroyed in the blast.

Carpenter, or rather Reinhardt seems to think that the REF will be unable to assist the ASC beyond what they already did with the Toko. Yes we have the old timers and Wolfe, but what if they arrived with Carpenter. IIRC we see what could be taken as "Wolfe" sitting behind Marie at the AGACs unvieling. I find it hard to believe the Toko didn't have escort ships (like say Garfish) with her that may have been overlooked. What is left in the dark for us currently is why the REF was unable to assist the Earth (going by just the animation).

But the time period doesn't really matter anymore since your definition of the solar system could be incredibly huge and we have redtape to consider as well.

I don't know if I would consider it redtape. I don't picture every Installation in the Solar System being able to deploy large forces to other locations in the SS at the drop of hat. And a force that could make Liberty require assistance might be out of their available deployment's league requiring them to reorganize to be useful.

Well the Solar System is huge, it just depends on what one considers to be part of the Solar System. Is it just the Sun and the planets, or do comets and asteroids count to (which would push the Ort cloud into the picture).

A strong possibility. Some might even say the 85 and rt.com era writers had a number of differences in mind; therefore, rt.com era material may not necessarily be reliable as sources (bad speculation is still bad speculation even with HGs stamp of approval).

Agree they had differences in mind. With all the different continuities: 85Ep Legacy (w/no firm dates beyond a few in TMS and its ambigous time lapses), Comics (SDF-2 in the lake), Novels (5year Fold among other things), Shadow Chronicles (which I would include the Rt.com timeline for the series), the 1st Edition RPG (Invid return to Earth post Ep85, EBSIS, etc), might be a few others, its clear that RT has had different incarnations..

[Colonel Wolfe]

Personally, I believe the UEDF had a considerable fleet, much larger than depicted onscreen. I just don't believe counting every single capital ship seen onscreen gives an accurate depiction of their numbers, nor do I assume every vessel seen in TRM is UDEF when TNG alludes to non-UEDF forces being involved in battles with the Robotech Masters.

up until a few years ago, the SDF-4/Izumo was also considered lost in the last episode of its story arc.
Doubtful but HG could easily Retcon his survival, since you never see him die on screen.