Zentraedi vs the Three Galaxies

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Fri May 08, 2009 3:31 am

So far, I think most people are supporting the home team.

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Fri May 08, 2009 5:15 pm

The Paradise Federation bombards the Zentraedi with idol songs, the Skin Channel, and free passes to every brothel and massage parlor in the PF.....
Zentraedi morale collapses....

Armorlord · Unread post by **Armorlord** » Sun May 10, 2009 12:01 pm

glitterboy2098 wrote:in my phaseworld technical manual, i postulate that the reason robotech fold drives tend to malfunction and leave you in the wrong spot is tied ot the extensive use of contra-gravitic drive.

basically, robotech fold drives aren't the "jump" style drives, but more of a hyperspace system. (as seen in the show) so what i postulate is that what they do is exploit how our three dimensional reality is all twisted and "folded" in on itself when the other higher dimensions are included. the ship generates a fled that lets it translate to this higher dimensional state, which lets it travel "through' the folded 3D space along the shortest multi-dimensional route.

to use an analogy, if space is a sheet of paper, robotech fold drives don't fold the paper to work, they exploit the fact the paper is already crumpled up and you just need to "burrow" through to get anywhere.

what contra-gravitic drive does is distort this space. contra-gravitic drive bends space around itself to generate it's motive force in STl and the FTL bubble in FTL mode. with so many cultures all using contra-gravitic drive, the shape of space at the multi-dimensional level is constantly undergoing minute changes.

the RT fold drive ship plots it's course based on the shape of multi-dimensional space when it starts, but during the trip it's destination will have moved in multi-dimensional space as a result of accumulative warping of space by contra-gravitic drive use. so when it leaves the multi-dimensional state, it emerges in the wrong spot. sometimes close to the original destination, sometimes very far away.

for the intruders, you can assume either a better drive able to adjust for changing shape of space on the fly, or assume it's a "jump" type drive (which certainly fits with thel imited distances it can cover per use) actively altering the shape of space to leap from place to place.

While I hold to the books and Sentinels with it being an instantaneous jump, I feel your explanation works well for them as well. All those wakes from contra-drive and the stresses and strains on the fabric of space in the Three Galaxies would make life hell on a drive that would like to just fold the paper and get over, only to find the paper with ripples and waves flowing through it, pulling on the drive system and affecting aim. Now the failure rate never gets any specifics as to how often and how bad, and I'd imagine the amount of gravity waves in the area would affect that, I'd wager the high-end of the bad on a random roll chart, or perhaps operating pretty far within a powerful gravity field, would result in something like being way off course and the drive system tearing loose multidimensionally, to the effect of being just plain gone from your point of view. Man, talk about up the creek.
So, while perhaps more awesome than Phase and Rift drives, it gets both their problems of by being both expansive/uncommon and unreliable.

Also for the record, they mention it as locally developed space-fold systems and not Robotech specifically, so it is probably more to preserve theme than to specifically keep Robotech stuff out. The 3G setting likes to take slow cruises across the universe with fleets and epic space opera battles at knife fighting range.

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Fri May 15, 2009 12:44 am

Hmmm. I see this thread is still active! Interesting how people view things.

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:23 am

Hard to carry out a surprise attack on another dimension if you lack that technology.

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:24 pm

First I'd drop the whole protoculture bit and use Macross 2 standards, then I'd use Kitsune's rules regarding space travel.
In terms of massed fire power the Zents have an advantage, but in time I'd say the CCW and the UWW would kick their butts.
Zents would be shocked by the use of magic and the variablre force field tech of the CCW allows their ships to come in on par w/Zent ships defensively. Then the power armor differnces would start to show as Three galaxy pa's are superior to anything the Zents can field.

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:14 am

A lot of us have maintained the same point of view. (Including myself down to mentioning using Kitsune's alternate rules.) But we are still strongly divided here.

Kagashi · Unread post by **Kagashi** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:54 pm

Zents. I dont care how much damage you can take, or how much you can deal, or what effects your beams do...if I can hit you, and you cant hit me, I win. The trick is to stay out of the range of the 3G ships. Of course, the Zents would have to KNOW they had superior range for that to be a successful tactic.

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:10 am

That is only going to affect those people who don't use Kitsune's adjusted ranges. I do as a GM, and I will never stop using them. Therefore I trump the Zentraedi in my game. And I know a lot of GM's who swear by Kitsune's material.

Kagashi · Unread post by **Kagashi** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:32 am

Siembieda doesnt. :wink:

Seriously though, using non canon sources in a hypothetical situation is moot. Opinion doent matter. You have to use what is printed by Palladium otherwise it is just...pointless. Cause I can always counter with "well in my games, all Zentraedi have triple MDC, so Zentraedi obviously have stronger ships than 3G ships." Thats just pulling crap outta my hat.

Kagashi · Unread post by **Kagashi** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:35 am

taalismn wrote:The Paradise Federation bombards the Zentraedi with idol songs, the Skin Channel, and free passes to every brothel and massage parlor in the PF.....
Zentraedi morale collapses....

lol. While that would work, what would lead the 3G to attempt such a tactic against a random invader?

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:24 am

Sure it's perfectly fine doing that. Those original things were short sighted when they were written. Someone wrote them wasn't really into SciFi or didn't understand it very well. And they didn't do their research very well. So you are not wrong and I'm not wrong.

But I'm always trying to get along with people.

tobefrnk · Unread post by **tobefrnk** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:57 am

sHaka wrote:I'm sure the 3G's can find a better looking and more competant singer than Minmei

You win the prize in my heart for this.

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:14 pm

Kagashi wrote:Siembieda doesnt.

Seriously though, using non canon sources in a hypothetical situation is moot. Opinion doent matter. You have to use what is printed by Palladium otherwise it is just...pointless. Cause I can always counter with "well in my games, all Zentraedi have triple MDC, so Zentraedi obviously have stronger ships than 3G ships." Thats just pulling crap outta my hat.

Canon isn't always clear or correct, but even using canon I'd say that if ALL the phase world forces teamed up on even a Zentraedi fleet the size of Breetai's they would win. The difference between power armor technologies (Zent vs PW) is huge, the Kreeghor "super soldiers" can fight Zents one for one and win, CosmoKnights, mages, psychics all combine into a formidable force that the Zents could not effectively deal with.

taalismn · Unread post by **taalismn** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:03 pm

I want...

A Zentraedi CosmoKnight....

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:33 am

It could be done. It'd be cool to see. I have to admit I'd love to see one. I saw a Praxian Headhunter for Rift's years ago. She was one nasty Headhunter.

I think that a Zentraedi Cosmo Knight would even give a Dominator a fright!

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:51 am

taalismn wrote:I want...

A Zentraedi CosmoKnight....

That is a very scary idea, I actually got shivers down me spine at the thought! :eek:

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:03 am

But it'd be fun to see one! I have to admit I'd love to see one!

ZINO · Unread post by **ZINO** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:58 am

Aramanthus wrote:But it'd be fun to see one! I have to admit I'd love to see one!

shock and awe !!! that all i am saying :shock:

Kagashi · Unread post by **Kagashi** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 1:21 pm

keir451 wrote:
Kagashi wrote:Siembieda doesnt.

Seriously though, using non canon sources in a hypothetical situation is moot. Opinion doent matter. You have to use what is printed by Palladium otherwise it is just...pointless. Cause I can always counter with "well in my games, all Zentraedi have triple MDC, so Zentraedi obviously have stronger ships than 3G ships." Thats just pulling crap outta my hat.

Canon isn't always clear or correct, but even using canon I'd say that if ALL the phase world forces teamed up on even a Zentraedi fleet the size of Breetai's they would win. The difference between power armor technologies (Zent vs PW) is huge, the Kreeghor "super soldiers" can fight Zents one for one and win, CosmoKnights, mages, psychics all combine into a formidable force that the Zents could not effectively deal with.

yep, assuming the 3G ships can get within their weapons ranges, I agree with you. But Im betting on the Zentraedi ranges (based on hundreds of miles) beating out the Phaseworld ranges (based off of hundreds of FEET). Most 3G units would be destroyed by reflex cannons before they could even use their phase cannons or magic.

Of course being impervious to energy would help, something the Zents couldnt anticipate. But Zents have Kinetic weapons as well.

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:05 pm

Kagashi wrote:
keir451 wrote:
Kagashi wrote:Siembieda doesnt.

Seriously though, using non canon sources in a hypothetical situation is moot. Opinion doent matter. You have to use what is printed by Palladium otherwise it is just...pointless. Cause I can always counter with "well in my games, all Zentraedi have triple MDC, so Zentraedi obviously have stronger ships than 3G ships." Thats just pulling crap outta my hat.

Canon isn't always clear or correct, but even using canon I'd say that if ALL the phase world forces teamed up on even a Zentraedi fleet the size of Breetai's they would win. The difference between power armor technologies (Zent vs PW) is huge, the Kreeghor "super soldiers" can fight Zents one for one and win, CosmoKnights, mages, psychics all combine into a formidable force that the Zents could not effectively deal with.

yep, assuming the 3G ships can get within their weapons ranges, I agree with you. But Im betting on the Zentraedi ranges (based on hundreds of miles) beating out the Phaseworld ranges (based off of hundreds of FEET). Most 3G units would be destroyed by reflex cannons before they could even use their phase cannons or magic.

Of course being impervious to energy would help, something the Zents couldn't anticipate. But Zents have Kinetic weapons as well.

All true, that (of course) is why some of us use Kitsune's rules instead. The kinetic weapons the Zents have are limited to autocannons on the officers battlepod and their rifles (I think). The power armor in Phase world is still superior to anything the Zents have, that and Naruni arms merchants would make a KILLING selling their weapons to the CCW and to the merc forces.

Kagashi · Unread post by **Kagashi** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:28 pm

The other advantage 3G has is Zents are now correctly classified as MDC creatures as of the re-imagined Robotech line. If I were wielding a phase rifle, Id rather shoot at a being that has 50 MDC, rather than 5000 SDC... That sure helps the 3G cause.

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:50 am

But it's nice to see that others are using the same rules I am.

Nekira Sudacne · Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:49 am

Aramanthus wrote:That is a brilliant way of beating them. Just out of curiousity. What is the range of Astral Projection? I don't remember off the top of my mind.

Unlimited. If you had enough time you could cross the galaxy with it...at 670 MPH.

Sgt Anjay · Unread post by **Sgt Anjay** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:43 am

I dont get the underestimation of Tirolian-designed beam weapons. The 2nd smallest Zentraedi ship is designed to carry a beam weapon that can one-shot a dreadnought-type ship in either universe: the Reflex Cannon. The Zentraedi could field entire fleets of just those ships. Tirolian motherships have reflex cannons so advanced they don't even need a barrel or nozzle of any kind! The beam is simply conducted and fired from any point on the hull itself, allowing it to fire in literally any direction. That, to me, sounds like a race that has taken the technology of beam weaponry to incredibly heights. Why can't their beam weapons be superior to standard 3G stuff when it is demonstrable that they have beam weapons the 3G aren't capable of? I have every reason, based on those facts, to up the capabilities of Tirolian tech even if you feel you have a reason to up the capabilities of 3G tech in this area.

That doesn't make it somehow "unfair". The Zentraedi designs are specifically stated as following "glass cannon" philosophy; high damage output, low damage capacity. And that's true; while Tirolian-based beam weapons seems superior, their armor and shield technology doesn't match 3G standards; Zent ships don't even have shields. Plus, the Zents have no experience with anything equivalent to phase tech, high-level magic, and other phenomena widespread in the 3G.

As for the limits of 3G beam weapons, just off the top of my head I'd blame it all on CG. If your ship is generating such intense gravity fields that you're ignoring the universal constant of the speed of light, and then you try to send powerful streams of particles accurately, something's got to give somewhere. To say nothing of trying to target and get accurate sensory data. It could very well be something akin to the Gundam-verse, where the mutual technology shared by all the combatants has reduced the range of combat dramatically. Not sharing that technology, Robotech ships aren't subject to its limitations, but has limitations of its own. Of course, that's just off the top of my head, who knows what other posibilities could be come up with if one actually spent time on the problem.

As for the actual question....it depends. No doubt an Imperial Fleet (which is what Breetai calls his 1 million plus fleet) could wreck enourmous damage in the 3G, and if they went up against minor powers at first, even carve out their own large chunk of territory. In the end their gains would probably not be as effective if they went up against major powers right off the bat, but it would still be a horrifically massive conflict. Against the entire 3G at once, things become much uglier for an Imperial Fleet.

Now, a Grand Fleet like Dolza commanded, with over five million, could take on even major powers and shake a galaxy, and it would take multiple major powers to slow or stop their advance. The problem is, the bigger a threat the Zentraedi are, the more of the major powers would join up to fight them, slow balancing the scales. The Zentraedi would cut huge swaths of destruction in the meantime, and gobble up tremendous amounts of territory, no doubt. At that point it becomes a matter of whether or not it becomes a battle to the bitter end or if either side would be willing to reach a cease-fire. Another wild-card is the presence of things like a Dolza-style mobile command fortress and/or Robotech Factory Satellites; with those in the Zentraedi arsenal to clone troops, manufacture mecha, and build new ships (things the Zentraedi couldn't otherwise do), suddenly the Zents have a much stronger, longer-lasting footing.

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:58 pm

I'll stick with Kitsune's rules. That balances things nicely! Althought the Zentraedi have the advantage with numbers, but their systems would be faulty in the setting. II'm not choosing one over the other. I'm just trying to balace the match, since the writter of the Phase World setting really didn't do his research for weapons ranges. I feel that if he would have done them, the ranges would be different I feel this.

Sgt Anjay · Unread post by **Sgt Anjay** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:07 am

If you think the 3Gs should have longer ranges, I disagree. There could be plenty of valid reasons they are the way they are; the one I threw up there is one. But that's fine. In that case, though, I feel the Zent ranges should be increased by the same amount; the Robotech Masters are obviously more advanced in beam weapons than the standard races of the 3Gs. Otherwise, it doesn't balance things, it tips the balance that exists (Zents have better beam weapons, 3Gs have vastly better armor tech and shields), towards the 3Gs.

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:33 pm

Actually I know in the book it's not. But as I stated many times. I'll continue to use Kitsune's extended ranges. I really don't feel that the Master's creations weapons are really that superior. Sorry you really can't convince me of that. I feel that both sides have their advantages but neither one is all that superior to the other. Sure the Zents have the heavy particle beams. But their overall capabilities lack behind the 3Gs when it comes to sheer speed. Especially when their fold drive will not function in the environment of the 3Gs

Sgt Anjay · Unread post by **Sgt Anjay** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:14 am

Well, I don't really need to convince you particularly as to how advanced Tirolian-designed beam weapons are, since I've weight of evidence that the Tirolians mass produce beam weapons beyond the standard tech of the 3Gs. On the flip side, the 3G's have technologies of their own more advanced than that which the Zents have, such as better armor, shields, certain quirks of the CG drive, access to phase tech, etc.

But I suppose its pretty telling that folks wouldn't let Zent fold-drives work because the book may imply it, but gleefully throw out range limitations for 3G weapons even though those are in the book. Its like going to two runners before a marathon and saying, "Ok, you've got a longer stride, and he's got better speed. So I'll chop your foot off and let the other guy ride a motorcycle, and that should even things out." :-?

Jockitch74 · Unread post by **Jockitch74** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:33 pm

I think Robotech Zentraedi would make a good dent to any of the major players/power blocks in the 3g's but eventually would be over whelmed.

Now, if it were the Macross Zentradi... then they would just steam roll over 3g's. Sheer numbers. Consdering the are supposedly somewhere between 1000 and 2000 fleets the size of Bodolza's (4.8 million... give or take a few) roaming the galaxy. If that strenght could be yoked... then not even the Mechanoids would be able to hold out for long.

ZINO · Unread post by **ZINO** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:56 pm

Zentradi or Zentran space ship vs phase worlds space ship

Check Check

Amour

Check

Shields

Check

space ship Range weapons

Check

Troops

Magic

Check

Pisioncs

Check

spaceships Engine

Check

Speed

Check

Ships Maneuvers

Check

Crew (training)

Check

spaceships Production

Check

Ships Supplies

Check

Mecha (how many in space ship)

Check

Ships weapon damage

Mecha M.D.C

Check

Mecha M.D.C Damage

Check

ship numbers

now send your hate mail :lol:

Sgt Anjay · Unread post by **Sgt Anjay** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:04 am

Inverse wrote:I thought the question was would the zentradi beat the 3g, not would my version of the zentradi beat your version of the 3g.

Well, Palladium fans are very fond of Rule 0 :lol:

Seriously though, I know of three statements which deal with fold drives in the 3Gs. The first is the infamous one from DB2, that fold drives are used by other megaversal cultures, but they are unreliable in the 3Gs. It then gives a couple of reasons (the Cosmic Forge or magic) for why this might be so. Most seem to assume that this means no fold drives at all can ever work reliably in the 3Gs, though it is possible to interpret it other ways. It could simply mean that while cultures in other parts of the megaverse get them to work, cultures in the 3Gs make unreliable fold drives.

The second is in DB3. The Intruders use powerful fold drives reliably. They are described as having other tech beyond what the 3Gs are capable of, which is theoretically the justification for them having this system work. Taken to its logical conclusion, fold drives aren't inoperable in the 3Gs...but no one known operating in the 3Gs before the Intruders had gotten them to work.

A third blurb on fold drives is in DB6. There it states that fold drives are rumored to be used by the Intruders. In other words, either the races of the 3Gs are starting to suspect that's how the Intruders get about, or certain folk in the 3Gs know that's how they get about but are trying to keep it quiet and the info is only around in the form or rumors. Then it states that fold drives are being explored by 3G races, but they can't get them to work. Not everyone everywhere in the megaverse; the 3G races can't get fold drives to work. It then goes on to say that the theory is that antimatter used to power the system destabilizes it. If this theory is true, it has very strong implications for fold-drive-using races that don't rely on antimatter for the massive power requirements of fold drives. Such as the Tirolians and their Zentraedi minions.

So, can a theoretical Zentraedi fleet fold in the 3Gs? The answer is definitely maybe.

wildhood · Unread post by **wildhood** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:40 pm

I not beleave I created a monster post here. I think this post going keep on going like Energizer Bunny.

GT · Unread post by GT » Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:24 pm

One thing people forget is the Zentrani BIG GUN that can fire 100,000 or is it 200,000 that destroys several million MDC per blast...or is it every thing? And a fleet of millions of Zentradi is the norm I believe.

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:32 pm

Still those heavy particle beams would only be able to hit only a single ship at a time. Because of the miles between ships in space. I do have a group who isn't Robotech who have similiar weapons of power with very similiar weapon ranges.

As for throwing out the ranges. Again that is a GMs decision. No one can tell another GM how to run his game. If you choose to use the backward rules for Phase world ranges then so be it. Again I feel that the author of the first Phase World book made a grave mistake. The guidelines I use balance those short comings. I know that in general SciFi settings of various novels and media the ranges are astonishingly long. Longer than even the ranges of the Zentraedi. So with a technology as advanced as both are I still say that the ranges of both would be very simliar.

GT · Unread post by GT » Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:05 am

One destroy every thing blast in a line is pretty dang effective on a fleet formation.

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:11 am

Not really considering most fleets are going to be spread out over tens of thousands of miles. Not like the Robotech ships were placed. Too ineffective. You are thinking too two dimensionally. Most space fleets are not going to be bunched up. If they are in your game. My fleet will always beat your. I'll use englobement and crush you. You have to think in three dimensional strategy and tactics. Against me the beams would only be able to take a few ships at most. and only if they are lucky. Those beams are only two miles in diameter. Not much in space.

GT · Unread post by GT » Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:37 am

Its easy to cow the CCW in to submission with those big guns. "Surrender or we Blow up that planet!"

Jockitch74 · Unread post by **Jockitch74** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:20 am

Aramanthus wrote:Not really considering most fleets are going to be spread out over tens of thousands of miles. Not like the Robotech ships were placed. Too ineffective. You are thinking too two dimensionally. Most space fleets are not going to be bunched up. If they are in your game. My fleet will always beat your. I'll use englobement and crush you. You have to think in three dimensional strategy and tactics. Against me the beams would only be able to take a few ships at most. and only if they are lucky. Those beams are only two miles in diameter. Not much in space.

Interesting idea, however I believe the thread was "Zentraedi vs the Three Galaxies" not "Aramanthus's Fleets vs...". I get what you're saying and it makes sense.

Unfortunately, most movies, anime and even real world navies don't quite operate that way. Good examples are Star Wars, Star Trek, Babylon 5, Macross or even the U.S. military. All are seen to keep there fleets relatively bunched together.

Yes, I understand that there are multiple fleets that comprise one military that could use the englobement stratagy, but that's also assuming that the enemy vessles only have forward weapons... unlike the Zentraedi. Sure, the forward particle beams can only fire forward, but the Robotech Masters are able to fire those from anywhere on the city ships hulls. On top of that, if it's the Marduk (cuz nobody specified if it's the Robotech Master's Zentraedi or the Marduk's Zentraedi) then their ships have weapons all over their hulls in equal power to pretty much any of the 3 Galaxies battleships main guns.

JUst my two cents.

wildhood · Unread post by **wildhood** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:50 pm

Zentreadi are from Robotech. Zentran & Meltran are from Macross II. To get everyone straight Robotech Zentreadi!

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:01 pm

I know the difference. I have all of the supplements with the various races in them. Actually you are correct about my interpetation. BUt I'm sure that the fleeps wouldn't bunch up. Worst mistake they could do. Actually I know exactly how the USN generally deployes it's fleets. I've studied USN fleet deployments from WW2 to the present. I know about the changes in tactics over the various periods. Still that sort of deployment for the most part is a limited three dimensional one at best. That is as long as you make sure to include the two attack subs in any carrier group. And of course the air wing.

As for the speed problem. We again have to look at the failure of the writer of the first book for PHase World. There are definately aspects of this game (PHase World) that need ret-conning. So that is the reason I'll continue to use Kitsune's alternate rules. They not only make a lot more sense, but are far and with those I'll continue to defend the Three Galaxies forces against the Zentraedi.

Sgt Anjay · Unread post by **Sgt Anjay** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:22 am

"I'll retcon my forces so they're invincible compared to those" does not equal being fair. There's nothing wrong with homebrew making it different in your setting at home, but just because you can homebrew it doesn't mean Phase World has those capabilities, it means your setting , which is different from Phase World, has those capabilities.

As far as "make more sense", that would have much more weight for a hard-sf setting; Phase World has never been that. Also, to apply hard-sf criteria only to one area of the setting (ship tech) in order to make the ships more powerful against a prospective opponent, while failing to apply those criteria to any and all other aspects of the setting pretty much demonstrate what's really going on.

And as others have pointed out, there are many examples of science fiction in which ships close with each other into close range for combat. Ships fighting at extreme ranges with stupendous weapons at amazing speeds have the side-effect of making all the fighters, 'bots, and many/most/all Palladium statted missiles unworkable, obsolete, and/or immaterial in space combat. That, by the way, happens to be the reason many sci-fi settings keep ship-tech down to a dull roar in the first place. In fact, the original Mobile Suit Gundam went through extraordinary lengths to give detailed, thorough, precise, and consistent explanations why long-range combat did not work and thus why fighters and giant robots were plausible in an era of space combat. To do the same for Phase World, which has a multitude of fighters and 'bots battling out in space, would seem a matter of course.

keir451 · Unread post by **keir451** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:37 pm

Sgt Anjay wrote:"I'll retcon my forces so they're invincible compared to those" does not equal being fair. There's nothing wrong with homebrew making it different in your setting at home, but just because you can homebrew it doesn't mean Phase World has those capabilities, it means your setting , which is different from Phase World, has those capabilities.

As far as "make more sense", that would have much more weight for a hard-sf setting; Phase World has never been that. Also, to apply hard-sf criteria only to one area of the setting (ship tech) in order to make the ships more powerful against a prospective opponent, while failing to apply those criteria to any and all other aspects of the setting pretty much demonstrate what's really going on.

And as others have pointed out, there are many examples of science fiction in which ships close with each other into close range for combat. Ships fighting at extreme ranges with stupendous weapons at amazing speeds have the side-effect of making all the fighters, 'bots, and many/most/all Palladium statted missiles unworkable, obsolete, and/or immaterial in space combat. That, by the way, happens to be the reason many sci-fi settings keep ship-tech down to a dull roar in the first place. In fact, the original Mobile Suit Gundam went through extraordinary lengths to give detailed, thorough, precise, and consistent explanations why long-range combat did not work and thus why fighters and giant robots were plausible in an era of space combat. To do the same for Phase World, which has a multitude of fighters and 'bots battling out in space, would seem a matter of course.

Actually when I apply "hard sf" to this concept I apply it to all aspects, so the fighters accelerate at percentages of light instead of Mach speeds and have greater range in their speed and weapons capability. But I agree that Phase world has never been truly hard sf, yet that shouldn't limit one from applying hard sf rules to a game if one so desires. There are Sci-fi writers who do apply real science to their settings and in fact DO have ship to ship combat taking place at much greater ranges than we typically see, Alistair Reynolds, author of Revelation Space goes to great lenght to do just the opposite of most sci-fi.

Sgt Anjay · Unread post by **Sgt Anjay** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:01 pm

keir451 wrote:
Sgt Anjay wrote:"I'll retcon my forces so they're invincible compared to those" does not equal being fair. There's nothing wrong with homebrew making it different in your setting at home, but just because you can homebrew it doesn't mean Phase World has those capabilities, it means your setting , which is different from Phase World, has those capabilities.

As far as "make more sense", that would have much more weight for a hard-sf setting; Phase World has never been that. Also, to apply hard-sf criteria only to one area of the setting (ship tech) in order to make the ships more powerful against a prospective opponent, while failing to apply those criteria to any and all other aspects of the setting pretty much demonstrate what's really going on.

And as others have pointed out, there are many examples of science fiction in which ships close with each other into close range for combat. Ships fighting at extreme ranges with stupendous weapons at amazing speeds have the side-effect of making all the fighters, 'bots, and many/most/all Palladium statted missiles unworkable, obsolete, and/or immaterial in space combat. That, by the way, happens to be the reason many sci-fi settings keep ship-tech down to a dull roar in the first place. In fact, the original Mobile Suit Gundam went through extraordinary lengths to give detailed, thorough, precise, and consistent explanations why long-range combat did not work and thus why fighters and giant robots were plausible in an era of space combat. To do the same for Phase World, which has a multitude of fighters and 'bots battling out in space, would seem a matter of course.

Actually when I apply "hard sf" to this concept I apply it to all aspects, so the fighters accelerate at percentages of light instead of Mach speeds and have greater range in their speed and weapons capability. But I agree that Phase world has never been truly hard sf, yet that shouldn't limit one from applying hard sf rules to a game if one so desires. There are Sci-fi writers who do apply real science to their settings and in fact DO have ship to ship combat taking place at much greater ranges than we typically see, Alistair Reynolds, author of Revelation Space goes to great lenght to do just the opposite of most sci-fi.

Actually applying those standards assumes it is possible to get fighters and bots to operate at those capabilities, and for sentients to pilot fighters and bots at those levels, which is debateable and in any case requires vast amounts of handwaviums/unobtaniums in contradiction or attached/supplementary to the ones which already exist in the setting. Nothing at all wrong with that, but its a definite complete overhaul of the setting into something new as opposed to core Phase World. You're now comparing apples to flux capacitors, which is useless for this particular discussion.

And yes, there are many sci-fi settings which are hard, bound as closely as can be managed to current principles of science and technology. And there are many which are soft, many which are science fantasy, or space opera, or military sci-fi, or any of the other flavors sci-fi in general comes in. Meanwhile, Phase World as written is part of the tradition with knife-fighting capital ship slugging-matches and giant space ratraces composed of hordes of fighters/bots piloted by wild-eyed fighter jocks, containing a host of alien races including near-humans and anthropomorphs. There are plenty of those out there, and they're just as valid within their self-imposed bounds as any other type of sci-fi, especially since they can explain the reasons for their tech level as thoroughly, consistently, and plausibly as one in which near-light fighters are piloted in relativistic dog-fights.

wildhood · Unread post by **wildhood** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:58 pm

Anybody thinking of uploading a computer virus on one of the Zentreadi ships?

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:06 pm

That happens to be your opinion. I'm happy with the rules I use. Personally I think these home rules make the setting a far better and more well rounded setting,. As for it being a knife close ship to ship. This is the only place who messed up that one. I'm quite familiar with MS Gundam. As a matter of fact I do have a power in my game who uses Gundams. Althought the ships of Gundam are quite primitive when compared to the ships of Phase World. They are several hundred years behind the 3Gs ships. Again we must not forget that we now have a history for the setting. And it goes back thousands of years. Because of this alone should mean that certain aspects of the setting are totally messed up. As for the fighters an power armors being obsolete? I don't think so. They fit in nicely in my games even with the changes. At certain times they help the ships with their layered defenses against incoming fire. But occasionally in my game they do get close enough and then it truly gets brutal.

Sgt Anjay · Unread post by **Sgt Anjay** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:15 pm

Aramanthus wrote:That happens to be your opinion.

What happens to be my opinion? That there are sci-fi settings from all sorts of different genres? No, that's fact. That many sci-fi series have ships at close range? No, that's fact. That some series explain consistently and plausibly why their ships are at close range? No, also fact.

Aramanthus wrote:I'm happy with the rules I use. Personally I think these home rules make the setting a far better and more well rounded setting,.

Which is fine; pretty much everybody I know tweaks the rules to the needs of their personal games. But using house rules doesn't change what Phase World is as written, nor do House Rules automatically trump the books just because they work in your game.

Aramanthus wrote: As for it being a knife close ship to ship. This is the only place who messed up that one.

I don't know what this means. If you're implying Phase World is the only sci-fi setting where large ships move in to short range for combat, that just isn't true.

Aramanthus wrote: I'm quite familiar with MS Gundam. As a matter of fact I do have a power in my game who uses Gundams. Althought the ships of Gundam are quite primitive when compared to the ships of Phase World. They are several hundred years behind the 3Gs ships.

Relatively primitive yes, though they can generate fields making all sensors except visual ones unusable. But my mention of Gundam was for one and only one reason: to point out that a sci-fi series can consistently and plausibly explain why its ships get into close range for combat despite having sci-fi weapons. It's an especially good example because the reason its ships get into close range and the reason that giant robots make sense are one and the same! Therefore, coming up with a plausible reason why Phase World ships have relatively short-ranged weapons is not only possible but really not all that hard.

Aramanthus wrote:Again we must not forget that we now have a history for the setting. And it goes back thousands of years. Because of this alone should mean that certain aspects of the setting are totally messed up.

No, it doesn't, and the Gundam example proves it. Gundam has technology way more advanced than any modern technology....but there are modern weapons that can reach beyond the ranges of Gundam's weapons. "But if the tech is more advanced, Gundam ranges should be longer!" No, because their technology specifically and activelycounters long range. Meanwhile, in the Three Galaxies, contra-grav is at the root of spaceship technology. And we know powerful gravity distorts the very sorts of things you can use to detect things at long range....like I said above, not all that hard.

Aramanthus wrote:As for the fighters an power armors being obsolete? I don't think so. They fit in nicely in my games even with the changes. At certain times they help the ships with their layered defenses against incoming fire. But occasionally in my game they do get close enough and then it truly gets brutal.

Sounds pretty cool. "Cool" doesn't make it "realistic", though, and "not realistic" is the complaint being leveled at the ranges of Phase World weapons. That's my point; people ignore the "cool" unrealistic stuff, but wail about how "unrealistic" the stuff they don't think is cool is. Now, when you're playing a game for fun, wanting it to be as cool as possible makes complete sense. But different people have different cool, and claiming your "cool" is more right (by virtue of "more realistic"; riiiiight) than someone else's cool (especially when that cool is what's actually written in the books) is a null argument.

Aramanthus · Unread post by **Aramanthus** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:09 pm

Interesting points. If it works for you then that is great to hear. As for spreading the fleet out. Actually that'll limit the effectivness of the Zentraedi heavy particle beams.

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:12 pm

Ther is only one way to make a copmparison.

Aramanthus, as much as you want to use Kitsune's rules (which I use many o fmyself) to make thing's "fair" you can't objectively do that for this argument.

The arguement is Zentraedi vs Three Galaxies. Irregardless of what YOU or anyone else thinks about the rules in the books or the weapon damages or otherwise THAT is the canon you HAVE to use in order to make the comparison. Opinion on thematter is irrelevant tot eh disucassion at hand.

There have been enough theories thrown out there so here is mine.

The Zentraedi while doing VERY well to start (since I too will side with the Zentraedi NOT being from the 3g means their fold drive should work) would eventually start to lose footing and momentum over time. Things like magic, psionics, cosmo knights etc and the fact that the entire galactic community would innevitibly HAVE to ally themselves to each other would eventually spell doom for the Zentraedi.

In a straight up fight of fleets though, based on the CANON BOOK stats Zentraedi win every time just by the numbers.

azazel1024 · Unread post by **azazel1024** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:53 pm

Google Kitsune Palladium

http://www.kitsune.addr.com/palladium.htm
-Matt