Coaliton States questions

[MikelAmroni]

The CS (no A) has no "immediate" plans to go west. They need to control the single most important waterway in the midwest - The Mississippi and its tributaries. The west is a bunch of praerie and desert, with treacherous mountains beyond that, filled with D-Bees who would have to be removed - which would take forever. They'd rather control the relatively safe farmlands around the Mississippi first, and their control there is no where near complete and they know it. One thing the CS is pretty good about is not overextending themselves when taking territory. (The war on two fronts with Free Quebec non-withstanding, even a good leader makes bad decisions every now and then - Prozek just had a run of bad days )

That and they are still recovering from the Siege on Tolkeen, and that is going to take a while. The west is too open and too volatile for them to control right now. In 50 years or so, that might be a different question.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Right, nothing's changed there or retconned as far as I know.


As to anyone who could stop the CS, well yeah there are a few. Atlantis and the New German Republic are both bigger and badder. The Native American's, if they unify, could likely take on the CS - may not win but would likely damage the CS to the point it would take them a few generations to recover.

[Dead Boy]

First of all, Welcome to the Boards!

In the New West, it says that the CSA does not plan on expanding into the West. Has that been retconned?

The only plans in the "west" the Coalition States has is the eventual pacification of the state of Texas/Lone Star, ridding it of the Pecos Empire down to the Rio Grand. Beyond that, they have no plans to expand west of the Domain of Man. Nothing has been retconed there that I'm aware of.

Another question is is there a force that can stop the CSA on Rifts Earth?

On Rifts Earth? Several, as noted above by others. On the North American continent on the other hand, there are those that could slow them down or give the CS Army a bloody nose, but none that could stop or ultimately defeat them.

[cornholioprime]

A few can hold their own, The Vampire Kingdoms hold the best chance( as Mexico is part of north America)

Only the Splugorth can stop the combined might of the Vampire Intelligences (who would probably be VERY likely to band together under such a scenario)...and even then, even the Splugorth would have a bloody nose.

[Dead Boy]

A few can hold their own, The Vampire Kingdoms hold the best chance( as Mexico is part of north America)

I kind of doubt it. If it came down to it, the CS would learn their lessons in Vampire Killing 101 pretty darn fast, and could crush the Vampire Kingdoms inside of a year. They wouldn't be able to eradicate all vampires, of course. But they wouldn't be any worse than any other supernatural menace that rears its ugly head in any given CS Burb on a regular basis.

[Ravenwing]

A few can hold their own, The Vampire Kingdoms hold the best chance( as Mexico is part of north America)

I kind of doubt it. If it came down to it, the CS would learn their lessons in Vampire Killing 101 pretty darn fast, and could crush the Vampire Kingdoms inside of a year. They wouldn't be able to eradicate all vampires, of course. But they wouldn't be any worse than any other supernatural menace that rears its ugly head in any given CS Burb on a regular basis.

Ditto on that. The Vampire Kingdoms might slow the CS some, but their not really a major threat to them. Considering that a squritgun will destroy a vampire with two or three "blasts"

[Prince Artemis]

I'd argue that the Federation may have the strength to do more than give the CS a bloody nose. They're getting a lot of the angrier Tolkeen Refugees, the non-CS communities are now really paranoid about the cs and are more likely to join the fom than the CS. They've also been gearing for war for a long time now. On top of that, the retribution squads in the burbs could cause a lot of problems for the CS as well if they see reinforcements on the way.

[Killer Cyborg]

In the New West, it says that the CSA does not plan on expanding into the West. Has that been retconned?

Not that I know of.
It took a lot out of them just seizing Tolkeen- they'll have to rebuild a bit before taking another bite, and it'll take quite a few bites until they get out west.

Another question is is there a force that can stop the CSA on Rifts Earth?

Yes.
Several, actually.

[Killer Cyborg]

A few can hold their own, The Vampire Kingdoms hold the best chance( as Mexico is part of north America)

I kind of doubt it. If it came down to it, the CS would learn their lessons in Vampire Killing 101 pretty darn fast, and could crush the Vampire Kingdoms inside of a year. They wouldn't be able to eradicate all vampires, of course. But they wouldn't be any worse than any other supernatural menace that rears its ugly head in any given CS Burb on a regular basis.

Ditto on that. The Vampire Kingdoms might slow the CS some, but their not really a major threat to them. Considering that a squritgun will destroy a vampire with two or three "blasts"

Yeah... I guess if easily-destroyed, short-range, relatively inaccurate weapons that can be stopped by a raincoat are one of their few weaknesses, vampires don't have a chance.

[Dead Boy]

A few can hold their own, The Vampire Kingdoms hold the best chance( as Mexico is part of north America)

I kind of doubt it. If it came down to it, the CS would learn their lessons in Vampire Killing 101 pretty darn fast, and could crush the Vampire Kingdoms inside of a year. They wouldn't be able to eradicate all vampires, of course. But they wouldn't be any worse than any other supernatural menace that rears its ugly head in any given CS Burb on a regular basis.

Ditto on that. The Vampire Kingdoms might slow the CS some, but their not really a major threat to them. Considering that a squritgun will destroy a vampire with two or three "blasts"

Yeah... I guess if easily-destroyed, short-range, relatively inaccurate weapons that can be stopped by a raincoat are one of their few weaknesses, vampires don't have a chance.

I was thinking more along the lines of Wellington's 13mm and 15mm silver bullets; they're big enough to do double damage and pack one hell of an SDC punch to begin with. A few battalions of CS Strike Troopers (borgs) and Kill Hounds properly trained to kill vamps, armed with Vipers and the like could lay waste to thousands upon thousands of vampires in a single night. By the day, air strikes could take out any non-vampire resistance who may be their sympathizers and minions. It would be such a slaughter, it would make the poultry industry look positively humane.

[Killer Cyborg]

I was thinking more along the lines of Wellington's 13mm and 15mm silver bullets; they're big enough to do double damage and pack one hell of an SDC punch to begin with. A few battalions of CS Strike Troopers (borgs) and Kill Hounds properly trained to kill vamps, armed with Vipers and the like could lay waste to thousands upon thousands of vampires in a single night. By the day, air strikes could take out any non-vampire resistance who may be their sympathizers and minions. It would be such a slaughter, it would make the poultry industry look positively humane.

MUCH better than squirt guns.

But I still think you're greatly underestimating the vamps.
For one thing, they do have full armies with high tech weaponry from infantry to robot vehicles.

I mean, Tula has six thousand troops, plus each major city has another 1200 troops, and "all are the equivalent of a second and third level Coalition Grunts and Technical Officers."
20% of them are partial borgs to boot.
Mexico City manufactures MDC armor and weapons, as well as vehicles, with the L-20 as one of their most common weapons.
Their suits of power armor and bots number in the dozens instead of the hundreds or thousands, but it's still a force to be reckoned with, and other cities are similarly equipped.

And every time anybody talks about how easy vamps are to kill, I just think that they're running vampires wrong.
For one thing, good luck even finding thousands of vampires in one night.
For another, vamps can and do use high-tech weaponry if they know they're going up against, and that's something that a lot of people don't take into account.
About a third of vampires carry a MD pistol or rifle, and masters and secondary vamps will wear armor if they actually see a need for it (like a bunch of CS goons hunting them with SDC weapons).
And, of course there's the fact that if you make eye-contact with them they can mind-scooby you.
And it's hard to fight while you're covered in cockroaches.
And they can (and will) turn to mist and fly off when they're wounded, regenerating then coming back for more.

And all that's without the old "sneak up in mist form, turn solid just long enough to drop a grenade or two, then turn back to mist" trick, or the "wear light MDC armor and rush into their midsts, then detonate your fusion blocks" trick.

If it's just a bunch of wild vamps milling about and not using their powers, yeah, fish in a barrel.
Otherwise, not so easy.

[Dead Boy]

But I still think you're greatly underestimating the vamps.
For one thing, they do have full armies with high tech weaponry from infantry to robot vehicles.

I mean, Tula has six thousand troops, plus each major city has another 1200 troops, and "all are the equivalent of a second and third level Coalition Grunts and Technical Officers."
20% of them are partial borgs to boot.
Mexico City manufactures MDC armor and weapons, as well as vehicles, with the L-20 as one of their most common weapons.
Their suits of power armor and bots number in the dozens instead of the hundreds or thousands, but it's still a force to be reckoned with, and other cities are similarly equipped.

Now we're talking about their centers of power, which is an excelent place to look at this scenario next. The vamp's army of protectors numbers in the tens of thousands, true. But generally speaking in terms of true military strength, sending a force of 6,000 may be awe striking to the vast majority of the kingdoms of the world, the CS would be no where nearly as impressed. If the CS were to invade full force, and sent just a quarter of what they did against Tolkeen... say just one Battle Group... then they would have roughly a quarter million troops to lob against the Vampire Kingdoms' conventional defenses. In short, there's no way the blood suckers could count on their human minions to keep the CS at arm's length during the daylight hours. The vamps would have to get their hands dirty and fight mainly for themselves, and that's something that they just don't know how to do on a large military scale, especially with Dog Boys sniffing them out day and night; (i.e., zero element of surprise).

For another, vamps can and do use high-tech weaponry if they know they're going up against, and that's something that a lot of people don't take into account.
About a third of vampires carry a MD pistol or rifle, and masters and secondary vamps will wear armor if they actually see a need for it (like a bunch of CS goons hunting them with SDC weapons).

Actually they generally don't use anything bigger than an energy pistol because larger weapons can not be taken with them when the vampires use their morphing powers. And since they use their wolf and bat forms at their primary means of travel, they must travel light.

And as for body armor, they absolutely abhor anything that confines them. In fact ANY armor messes with their morphing power, even if its non-EBA. It outright says that they occasionally wear armor like that of ancient Roman or Greek soldiers because it can be taken off quickly. Hence, even if they know trouble is coming, many would be reluctant to suit-up for that 20-40 MDC of protection.

And, of course there's the fact that if you make eye-contact with them they can mind-scooby you.
And it's hard to fight while you're covered in cockroaches.

Those two abilities are the ONLY factors that the CS would have a rough time with. But then again, those roaches don't magically rain down out of a clear star-filled sky. They have to come under their own power. And even then, since the Coalition's standard body armor is fully environmental, (even a lot of the Dogs now) the bugs would be a nuisance and not much more.

And they can (and will) turn to mist and fly off when they're wounded, regenerating then coming back for more.

A modest burst form the big Wellington guns in Merc Ops is sufficient to knock even the toughest vamp in to stasis on the first hit. Mo 'em down and while their front line is rapidly pushed back, have the Skelebots programmed to stake the fallen and prepare their bodies for permanent termination.

And all that's without the old "sneak up in mist form, turn solid just long enough to drop a grenade or two, then turn back to mist" trick, or the "wear light MDC armor and rush into their midsts, then detonate your fusion blocks" trick.

A: Dog Boys would detect them coming well in advance, especially in mist form.
B: It expressly says they cannot bring any explosives with them in to any morph-form.
C: Fusion Blocks have a 30-second minimum on their timers. Plenty of time to neutralize any vamps that get that far and deactivate the block before it goes off.

If it's just a bunch of wild vamps milling about and not using their powers, yeah, fish in a barrel.

And given that roughly half of all vampires are Wilds, they would be their first line of defense. Easy pickings for properly equipped soldiers, properly trained in anti-vampire warfare. Seriously, the only thing that has kept the Vampire Kingdoms safe from the CS so far is the fact that Dr. Ken Reid has yet to take his seminar tour on the road up north of the Rio Grand; "The art of vampire-fang necklace making". Because the only thing canonistically keeping the CS at bay is their lack of knowledge, and knowing is half the battle!

[Shark_Force]

As much as I love the CS multiple source state they Gravely underestimate the vampires. The Vampire Kingdoms are more then just a single city in the northern wilderness like Tolkeen. It's a whole damn country held and controlled by an effectively Immortal enemy, and unless the Silver rounds stay lodged in the vampire they regenerate the damage lighting fast, the same goes with water and other things, unless you can get a vampire stuck and stake them and cut their heads off they are going to come back.

if you put enough silver (or wood, it's cheaper) into the air, you will put holes in them faster than they can regenerate. you see, the coalition can very easily just fill an entire battlefield with wooden bullets. it really isn't that hard. think of world war 1 even, charging a position was suicide because the other guy had a handful of machine guns that would just cut down your soldiers like a scythe goes through wheat. the coalition states has that same technology, except advanced a whole lot, and it's portable for a single person instead of being a crew-served weapon. sure, not every vampire is going to go into stasis from a heart shot, but you can just keep on shooting their corpses in the chest until they stop regenerating, advance continuously with a constant stream of wooden bullets ahead of you.

i really don't see a battle between the CS and the vampire kingdoms going well if the CS has even the slightest idea what they're doing. they have pretty much ignored the vampire kingdoms so far, otherwise the vampire kingdoms would be crushed in an extremely short time.

[Balabanto]

The ability of the Vampire Kingdoms to challenge the Coalition States is somewhat suspect. To be honest, I think the thing that people would need to look to in order to equalize out the Vampires against the Coalition States in a pitched engagement is Techno-Wizardry.

Vampires are helpless in the sunlight. But what if they're all wearing TW Onyx Nightstones that protect them from the effects of the sun? Now you have to A) Destroy their EBA. (What? Vampires wearing EBA? Why not? They did it first! I didn't come up with it) B) Figure out what the doohickey is. C) Yank it off him. At night, it's A) Destroy their EBA B) Shoot Vampire until dead with appropriate weapons and ammunition.

Good luck there!

My players killed the vampires in Silvereno, but they were really pissed when they found out that the vampires had TW Nightrooms underground where they could be fully active during the day. You seriously underestimate the desire and capabilities of Vampire intelligences to tell a master vampire smart things to do and how to do them.

In all seriousness, the Coalition States are the toughest thing in North America. They're meant to be. The coming conflict between the Federation of Magic and the CS will likely be interrupted by the Minion War. The real question is not who will win, but what will the landscape look like?

[Lenwen]

is there a force that can stop the CSA on Rifts Earth?

There are quite litterally a half dozen or so forces that could stop the CS with out any REAL problem.

1) - Atlantis
2) - China Yama kings an thier hordes of Demons.
3) - NGR
4) - Gargoyal Empire (Strickly a Garg emp / CS war no one else involved )
5) - Xitixic ( strickly a Xitixic / CS war no one else involved )
6) - Megaversal Legion
7) - Vampire Kingdoms ( if united )

[Lenwen]

is there a force that can stop the CSA on Rifts Earth?

There are quite litterally a half dozen or so forces that could stop the CS with out any REAL problem.

1) - Atlantis
2) - China Yama kings an thier hordes of Demons.
3) - NGR
4) - Gargoyal Empire (Strickly a Garg emp / CS war no one else involved )
5) - Xitixic ( strickly a Xitixic / CS war no one else involved )
6) - Megaversal Legion
7) - Vampire Kingdoms ( if united )

The xitixic while sweet are not something to worry about for the CS, yes they are going to be a threat at some point but the CS has built more data on them then most other threats on north America.

Speaking from a Canon perspefctive yes. I agree with you.

But as you can read, I was not speaking cannonically .. I was speaking about 1 on 1 which power bloc's would be able to defeat the Coalition.

[Killer Cyborg]

But I still think you're greatly underestimating the vamps.
For one thing, they do have full armies with high tech weaponry from infantry to robot vehicles.

I mean, Tula has six thousand troops, plus each major city has another 1200 troops, and "all are the equivalent of a second and third level Coalition Grunts and Technical Officers."
20% of them are partial borgs to boot.
Mexico City manufactures MDC armor and weapons, as well as vehicles, with the L-20 as one of their most common weapons.
Their suits of power armor and bots number in the dozens instead of the hundreds or thousands, but it's still a force to be reckoned with, and other cities are similarly equipped.

Now we're talking about their centers of power, which is an excelent place to look at this scenario next.

You never specified where you were talking about the first time through.
With the mention of thousands of vampires, I expected it was about places where there were thousands of vampires.

In any case, of the Tula troops 1-2k of them patrol the general area outside the cities.

The vamp's army of protectors numbers in the tens of thousands, true. But generally speaking in terms of true military strength, sending a force of 6,000 may be awe striking to the vast majority of the kingdoms of the world, the CS would be no where nearly as impressed. If the CS were to invade full force, and sent just a quarter of what they did against Tolkeen... say just one Battle Group... then they would have roughly a quarter million troops to lob against the Vampire Kingdoms' conventional defenses.

Now many troops did Tolkeen have defending it?

In short, there's no way the blood suckers could count on their human minions to keep the CS at arm's length during the daylight hours.

You mentioned a couple of battalions.
You want to throw the entire CS military at them, that might change things.

The vamps would have to get their hands dirty and fight mainly for themselves, and that's something that they just don't know how to do on a large military scale, especially with Dog Boys sniffing them out day and night; (i.e., zero element of surprise).

1. I think that the bolded part is an unwarranted assumption.
2. I wouldn't say "zero" element of surprise.
The dog boys powers are limited. When they're pinging multiple signals, they can only really track the most powerful, for example. In a swarm of vampires, that won't help much.
Knowing that there are vamps in mist form around you, blended with the fog, won't help much in any case, since you can't DO anything about it until they turn solid.
Likewise, picking out which bats out of a swarm, or which wolves out of a large pack, are actually the vampires you're sensing would also be tricky.
Moreso, if you're covered with flies, rats, roaches, and/or whatever at the time.
And, of course, their powers are diminished or useless near or on ley lines.

And knowing that a vampire is near doesn't mean it can't surprise you.
Say you sense a vampire bat flying a few hundred feet above you, that won't tell you that it's about to drop a grenade in your midst.
And it won't let you know if the incoming vamps have armor, or belts of explosives, or laser weapons, or whatever else they might come up with.

But don't think that I'm ignoring the strong strategic and tactical role that dog boys would play- they would indeed be a tremendous asset.
If I were the Coalition and were determined to invade the Vampire Kingdoms, I'd start producing as many dog boys as possible and sending them south in large numbers.

For another, vamps can and do use high-tech weaponry if they know they're going up against, and that's something that a lot of people don't take into account.
About a third of vampires carry a MD pistol or rifle, and masters and secondary vamps will wear armor if they actually see a need for it (like a bunch of CS goons hunting them with SDC weapons).

Actually they generally don't use anything bigger than an energy pistol because larger weapons can not be taken with them when the vampires use their morphing powers. And since they use their wolf and bat forms at their primary means of travel, they must travel light.

VK, 34
"about a third (33%) carry an energy pistol or rifle."

It's true that they can't carry a rifle in bat/wolf form, but that doesn't mean that they don't carry them.

And as for body armor, they absolutely abhor anything that confines them. In fact ANY armor messes with their morphing power, even if its non-EBA. It outright says that they occasionally wear armor like that of ancient Roman or Greek soldiers because it can be taken off quickly. Hence, even if they know trouble is coming, many would be reluctant to suit-up for that 20-40 MDC of protection.

The Wild vamps could simply be MADE to wear the armor, commanded by their superiors.

But it's not as extreme a phobia as you paint it to be.
"master and some secondary vampires occasionally wear mega-damage body armor."
People tend not to "occasionally" do something if they absolutely hate it, and this is describing normal conditions where there are few real threats.
In the face of an invading army armed to the teeth with silver bullets, they'd have a lot more reason to wear armor, and would do it more than "occasionally."

20-40 MDC worth of protection is very significant, since it completely negates the threat of wood and silver SDC weapons unless:
-The attacker spends 2-3 actions making a Called Shot at an exposed limb.
-The attacker first uses MD weaponry to destroy the armor, then spends an attack to change weapons, then starts using SDC rounds.

Cutting your enemy's number of attacks in two is a significant combat advantage, especially combined with swarms and other tactics.
An average soldier will have about 4 attacks per melee.
-1 attack when he's covered in vermin
-1 attack if they fail a horror save
-2 attacks for making a single Called Shot

Meanwhile, the average vamp should 7 attacks per melee.
Even if it's only 5-6, that's still a more than their opposition will get in if they have to make called shots or waste attacks switching weapons after taking out their enemies armor (or making multiple attacks to take out the armor in the first place).

And, of course there's the fact that if you make eye-contact with them they can mind-scooby you.
And it's hard to fight while you're covered in cockroaches.

Those two abilities are the ONLY factors that the CS would have a rough time with. But then again, those roaches don't magically rain down out of a clear star-filled sky. They have to come under their own power.

Actually, the book never says where they come from.

And even then, since the Coalition's standard body armor is fully environmental, (even a lot of the Dogs now) the bugs would be a nuisance and not much more.

-1 attack per melee, -4 initiative, -2 parry/dodge, reduce vision/optics by 75%, loss of enhanced hearing, Horror Factor 9.
Yeah, that's a nuisance.
And since Dog Boys tend NOT to have environmental armor, they would likely even take damage from the rats.

Also, don't discount the wolves/dogs. They provide cover for vamps in wolf form, and it's hard to aim with a dog gnawing on your gun-arm, or even pulling on your legs.
6 wolves/dogs per level per vampire can add up to quite a large pack, and make the CS waste a lot of their time on attacking things other than vampires (though their SDC weapons would still be quite effective, as well as area effect weapons like grenades, depending on how far the dogs are and such).

And they can (and will) turn to mist and fly off when they're wounded, regenerating then coming back for more.

A modest burst form the big Wellington guns in Merc Ops is sufficient to knock even the toughest vamp in to stasis on the first hit. Mo 'em down and while their front line is rapidly pushed back, have the Skelebots programmed to stake the fallen and prepare their bodies for permanent termination.

If you're talking about the vehicle-mounted machine-guns, intending borgs to be carrying them, there's a -2 strike penalty, but yes, if they hit then going by the book stats an average vamp would be dropped if he's not wearing armor.
Which means that the vamps would have to adopt new tactics if they were going up against a lot of borgs armed with such weapons, like wearing armor, using more weapons, etc.

Also keep in mind that you're talking about one heck of a lot of silver ammunition being used in the course of a campaign; the expense would be incredible.

And all that's without the old "sneak up in mist form, turn solid just long enough to drop a grenade or two, then turn back to mist" trick, or the "wear light MDC armor and rush into their midsts, then detonate your fusion blocks" trick.

A: Dog Boys would detect them coming well in advance, especially in mist form.

And...?

B: It expressly says they cannot bring any explosives with them in to any morph-form.

Well, it says "missiles and explosives," in the context of larger items.
But technically, you are correct.

C: Fusion Blocks have a 30-second minimum on their timers. Plenty of time to neutralize any vamps that get that far and deactivate the block before it goes off.

You're somehow thinking that a vampire would run up into the group, THEN activate the bomb, instead of activating the bomb first, then running into the group right before detonation...?

If it's just a bunch of wild vamps milling about and not using their powers, yeah, fish in a barrel.

And given that roughly half of all vampires are Wilds, they would be their first line of defense.

And given that Wild vamps are not known for NOT using their powers, nor for milling about, that still doesn't get you anywhere.

Easy pickings for properly equipped soldiers, properly trained in anti-vampire warfare. Seriously, the only thing that has kept the Vampire Kingdoms safe from the CS so far is the fact that Dr. Ken Reid has yet to take his seminar tour on the road up north of the Rio Grand; "The art of vampire-fang necklace making". Because the only thing canonistically keeping the CS at bay is their lack of knowledge, and knowing is half the battle!

And the fact that the CS doesn't really reach that far, and they don't have a vested interest in that area, etc. etc.

And, of course, for all the vampires.

[Killer Cyborg]

Also, let's not forget the Vampire Intelligences.
If an army enters Mexico, they won't just be fighting vampires, they'll be fighting entities, demons, Shadow Beasts, elementals, and anything else that the VIs can summon to fight for them.

[Killer Cyborg]

I still don't think the Bugs can out right beat them, hurt them and even leave them weakened for several generations, heck yeah.

From another thread:
viewtopic.php?p=1909305#p1909305

Xiticix Invasion, p. 22-23:
When a xiticix colony reaches 300 million members, it splits into 1d6 new colonies, each of roughly the same size. Each of those colonies will keep growing until it exceeds 200 million in population.
The Duluth Hive is the largest hive colony on Rifts Earth, and it spawned the other five, which were each 4-6 years old in 105 PA.
This would imply that there are at least 300 million Xiticix on Rifts Earth, since the original Duluth colony got large enough to split into 6 equally populated hives, and then each hive had 4-6 years to grow.
Also, the Duluth Hive is once again large enough that it is still producing queens and seeking to establish new colonies (though the other colonies are still too small).
300 million originally, split 6 ways = 50 million per colony.
If the Duluth Hive is seeking to make new colonies because it's reached the 200 Million mark, then that's another +150 million bugs, not counting the growth the other colonies have achieved in that time (it's save to assume the Duluth Hive grew faster due to better infrastructure and resources).
So that's at least 450 million bugs.

P. 85 paints a much less chilling picture, estimating that there are (as of 105 PA) 3-4 million xiticix. The projected rate of growth would put their total population at 50 million by 110 PA.
These estimates, however, are in-game estimations made by the Coalition States; they only show what the CS believes to be the truth.
They do not over-ride the previous population numbers that come from the writers themselves.

...

And remember that the 450 million Xiticix estimate is based on the information in Xiticix Invasion, which took place in 105 PA.
In Aftermath, set 109 PA, (p. 69), it mentions:
"Left unchecked for these past four or five years, the Xiticix population has continued to explode, not quite at a geometric rate, but close to it. Soon, swarms from each hive will go forth with a new, young queen to start their own hive and increase the current Hivelands range by 33%."
Which means that as of 109 PA, each of the six Xiticix colonies has reached at least the 200 million population mark, making their total numbers a minimum of 1.2 Billion.

I think the bugs have the edge here, in spite of the Coalition's superior technology.

[keir451]

I think the new navy could give the CS a run for their money esp. if they ally themselves w/ the Republic of Japan.
Here's why; The Navy has had nearly 300 yrs to explore and understand the threats in and around the oceans, the CS is just starting.

By allying themselves w/japan they get back the manufacturing capabilities they lost w/ the coming of the rifts, the Navy would then build better vessels to counter the current sea forces of the world.

The navy would then start a major breeding program to increase the ranks of the Sea Titans (the Japanese would be brought in on this too).

A well equiped modern "pirate" fleet operating under the command of someone from the New Navy, utilizing Japans tech resources and population (which numbers in the millions) could seize Okinawa from the Horune, and secure landing areas on the west coast of the US and start rebuilding towns and cities. By the time the CS got wind of this (Navy security is as good if not better than the CS's) there would be a full fledged civilization on the west coast ready, able, and willing to take on the CS, esp. if they are willing to use the more esoteric resources available like Naruni weapons.
Copying CS tech would be a snap for the Japanese (unlike Triax they were rifted straight from the past w/ no population or tech loss)
which would easily bring them up to par w/ rhe CS weapon wise.
Also let's not forget the dolphins and killer whales w/ their own suits of armor and weapons, they could strike the CS from practically out of nowhere and they are NOT an enemy the CS can effectively fight.
Also as cliche as it is, Dino Riders redux, What better way to freak out your enemies than by using your very own Dino AT-AT

[Killer Cyborg]

I still think the CS would win in the end, a few ideals are already in place and a few could be restarted if need be to help them.

I think that they certainly could win- I give human ingenuity a strong preference.
I think that they would (and will) win whenever Kev writes this up.
But just looking at what's in the books, the Coalition would probably be screwed.

Skelebots and the Bug hunters are one way,

The bug hunters are pretty much wiped out as of aftermath, if you're talking about the Lonestar critters.
Skelebots are decent fighters, but I believe the Bugs have longer range weapons.
Either way, they certainly have the advantage of numbers.

Carpet bombing from One way Drones dropping non-nuke bunker busters.

Unfortunately, the xiticix hives are mostly deep underground (not sure if even bunker-busters would work), and Rifts bombs/explosives pale compared to real-life bombs. The radii aren't nearly as good, and the damage is not incredibly impressive.

I'll not bring up the nuclear option because we all know it's there.

Yup.
Do you recall if the bugs are vulnerable to radiation?
I can't say offhand.

[Balabanto]

Really, if it were up to me, I would just plug up all the hives with MDC fire extinguisher foam and let the air run out. The bugs aren't full environmental, and they can expand and dig new tunnels, but it's easier to be firemen than it is to be soldiers, especially with a ranged sprayer.

[Balabanto]

The flaw is that fire requires oxygen to burn. The issue is that fire extinguisher foam and sprayers are cheap. Guns are expensive. BUT...

The Coalition does not do cost/benefit analysis on it's projects. If it did, the Bugs would be dead already using methods like this one. That's the Coalition's greatest weakness, Stalinist style propaganda.

Does the Coalition Railroad have any tactical value? The answer is no. It would be more effective to fly everything out there in armed Deaths Head Transports. The goal of the project is a visible presence on the ground where people can see the Coalition soldiers. It has massive propaganda value.

Does Desmond Bradford and Lonestar have any tactical value? Technically, no, because the area is surrounded by hostile forces on all sides and all it does is produce new experiments that the CS brass are nervous about. But propaganda wise, the production of fear has an extremely high value. Everyone is afraid of what "Bradford Labs" is going to pop out this week. The flaw in this theory is that Bradford and his goons always stand the chance of being consumed by his own creations. If Bradford were working out of anything less than a pre-rifts fortress, he'd already be dead.

[Killer Cyborg]

They are indeed vulnerable to Radiation as well as sonic effects, so even if the bunker-busters don't deal the damage they should the sonic wave will still effect them.

Again, Rifts nukes aren't like real-world nukes.

The Lone Star Critters could be reinstated if the CS does go to a full fledged war with the Bugs, Karl is smart and each one of those put out is another enemy throwing it's self against the Bugs. Granted this is one of those what if points unbacked by fact.

If they were effective, they'd already BE reinstated.

But of course the Bots can be programed alot easier and quicker then Dog-boy's or Engineered monsters.

Yup.
Check the range on the Skelebots guns, though, because as I said I think they're out-ranged.
Of course, not every bug is going to have a TK rifle, and leapers and such will get plenty close enough to shoot even with low-range weapons.
Since the bugs aren't known for their ingenuity, I think that the skelebots might well be a good match for them in a lot of ways. Maybe start having skelebots, psi-stalkers and dog boys all together in groups, with the bots providing most of the numbers.

Or teach the dog boys and/or skelebots to use all those surplus SAMAS in storage.

The Bugs have got the CS in numbers hands down and the numbers do look grim....

Yup.
For me, the numbers are the main thing that make the xiticix a deadly threat.
By the time the CS gets around to doing anything about the bugs, those numbers are going to be even higher.

[Killer Cyborg]

Oh, btw...
Another thought I had about the CS vs Vampires issue is that the CS seems pretty picky about not using non-CS weaponry, so they might well not go with the Wellington guns.

[Lenwen]

is there a force that can stop the CSA on Rifts Earth?

There are quite litterally a half dozen or so forces that could stop the CS with out any REAL problem.

1) - Atlantis
2) - China Yama kings an thier hordes of Demons.
3) - NGR
4) - Gargoyal Empire (Strickly a Garg emp / CS war no one else involved )
5) - Xitixic ( strickly a Xitixic / CS war no one else involved )
6) - Megaversal Legion
7) - Vampire Kingdoms ( if united )

The xitixic while sweet are not something to worry about for the CS, yes they are going to be a threat at some point but the CS has built more data on them then most other threats on north America.

Speaking from a Canon perspefctive yes. I agree with you.

But as you can read, I was not speaking cannonically .. I was speaking about 1 on 1 which power bloc's would be able to defeat the Coalition.

I still don't think the Bugs can out right beat them, hurt them and even leave them weakened for several generations, heck yeah.

haha

Over a Billion Xitixic , EACH equal to a PA suited CS soilder , some equal to Multiple CS personal , With sup Strength , and the ability of Flight.

Against at absolute most of 800,000 CS troops .

I think the Xitixic would utterly wipe the CS off the face of the planet if they so chose to swarm attack each of the CS's City Fortress's .

[Shark_Force]

Oh, btw...
Another thought I had about the CS vs Vampires issue is that the CS seems pretty picky about not using non-CS weaponry, so they might well not go with the Wellington guns.

that doesn't mean they won't make something similar themselves and improve on the idea though.

[Lenwen]

In fact fort Barron has over 4440 Skelebots to counter a swarm attack but even with all the weapons and what not the fort can only handle up to 90,000 bugs during one attack. But it is still a very Spartan like moral booster for the CS army, the whole "If only a few thousand bots and soldiers killed that many bugs, wait till we get ahold of 'Em!!" kinda feel.

The only way 4,440 skelebots can counter 90,000 Xitixic is if they in fact needed only 1 shot per kill per Xit , since that is impossible.

No way can 4,440 Skelebots ( which are known to be incredibly stupid tactically ) Can handle even twice thier own number of 8,880 Xitixic .

[Lenwen]

Oh, btw...
Another thought I had about the CS vs Vampires issue is that the CS seems pretty picky about not using non-CS weaponry, so they might well not go with the Wellington guns.

that doesn't mean they won't make something similar themselves and improve on the idea though.

The only way they do that in the time needed to make maximum damage against a Vampire united War Front and actually getting those weapons up an running against those Vampire minions and the actual Vampire soilder's themselves half of the CS military would be gone.

CS standard equipement = Laser based weaponry, which is 100% completly usesless against Vampires , due to the regenerative abilities of the Vampires.

If the CS launched a military campaign against a United Vampire front, The CS would fall.

[Avatara]

As for the Vampires are an easy kill after you get the 101 on them. I'd like to point out that in south America a smaller kingdom than the Mexico Vamp kingdoms are/have been fighting a city-state for years and have not been wiped out. So I don't think that the CS would simply walk all over the Vampire Kingdom.

[Balabanto]

As for the bugs, the bugs are outnumbered by the CS. The bugs are not full environmental, and every Samas comes equipped with a neuromace. Once the bug fails it's save, it's over. Splutch.

[Shark_Force]

As for the bugs, the bugs are outnumbered by the CS. The bugs are not full environmental, and every Samas comes equipped with a neuromace. Once the bug fails it's save, it's over. Splutch.

no, it's over for *that* bug.

there are hundreds of millions of the xiticix on rifts earth. if you paid any attention to the earlier estimate, it was over 1 billion even. and up to 300 million of those are in each hive. that's not a small force. the CS has some advantages on the bugs. numbers is *definitely* not one of them.

[Killer Cyborg]

Oh, btw...
Another thought I had about the CS vs Vampires issue is that the CS seems pretty picky about not using non-CS weaponry, so they might well not go with the Wellington guns.

that doesn't mean they won't make something similar themselves and improve on the idea though.

They might well make something similar themselves, but not initially.
At first, they'd make silver rounds for the existing CS rail guns.
They might after a while grok onto the odd quirk of physics (i.e., game mechanics) that make a 10 round burst from a 15mm machinegun incredibly more devastating to vampires than a 50 round burst from a rail gun, though, and design their own weapons.
But they're not really known for improving on designs, just imitating them.

[Killer Cyborg]

As for the bugs, the bugs are outnumbered by the CS. The bugs are not full environmental, and every Samas comes equipped with a neuromace. Once the bug fails it's save, it's over. Splutch.

no, it's over for *that* bug.

there are hundreds of millions of the xiticix on rifts earth. if you paid any attention to the earlier estimate, it was over 1 billion even. and up to 300 million of those are in each hive. that's not a small force. the CS has some advantages on the bugs. numbers is *definitely* not one of them.

Also, not every SAMAS comes with a neural mace.
Also, also, neural maces are ineffective on creatures of magic and supernatural creatures, and the xiticix seem to be supernatural (supernatural PS, commonly psionic, able to create magical weaponry, and described in XI as "supernatural predators").

And, of course, there's the fact you'd need to get close to them to use a neural mace, and they like to dog-pile people in melee combat, and they DO have 4 arms and supernatural PS, which provides a significant advantage in grappling and melee.
Not to mention I believe they would have a pretty fair chance to save against the mace if it does work on them at all.

[Avatara]

Do we actually know if the Xitic hives get along? If they don't get along than the cs might be able to take on one at a time. Of course the CS would take massive losses do to this. On the Bug note would the Xitics of two separate hives fight each other like ant colonies or do you think they would ignore each other? I don't think the Books ever covered that.

[The Galactus Kid]

Heavy bombing from CS Talons, Aircastle bombers and modified deaths head transports. Altitude is your friend.

[Shark_Force]

Do we actually know if the Xitic hives get along? If they don't get along than the cs might be able to take on one at a time. Of course the CS would take massive losses do to this. On the Bug note would the Xitics of two separate hives fight each other like ant colonies or do you think they would ignore each other? I don't think the Books ever covered that.

i'm pretty sure they did cover that. iirc, it's something to the effect of "once the whole planet is covered in xiticix hives, they will start killing each other". that being said, it seems a little implausible... i personally would stick with "once there's no more room for a given hive to expand, it will start attacking the hives nearby". not sure if that's the case with the current hives (can't recall what the map looks like) though. but yeah, the separate hives don't have a military alliance of any kind.

even so, 50 million+ (that is, the smallest hive that will break off is 50 million, so don't expect to face anything less) is a *lot* of bugs, especially when you consider that even the non-'military' bugs can be as tough as a rifts tank, fly, get several attacks, and are capable of doing megadamage. add on that they can be further armored (if the hive feels like it) and can be given weapons (even the basic clubs and such add to their damage, and we don't know how fast the guns could be created if they felt the need, but it would add some ranged capability even if you aren't forced into tunnel-fighting where range is relatively not as important).

also, while you deal with one hive, the others aren't exactly going to be sitting there twiddling their thumbs. you have to take them out faster than they can reproduce, and with the xiticix, that's pretty danged fast.

[Lenwen]

As for the bugs, the bugs are outnumbered by the CS. The bugs are not full environmental, and every Samas comes equipped with a neuromace. Once the bug fails it's save, it's over. Splutch.

You seem to be "Assuming" the Bugs even HAVE .. a Central Nervous system ...

If they do not , Then those stun weapons are as useless as it gets ..

[runebeo]

For the CS to wipe out the Vampire Nations they only need to raid the nest during the day and use submersible APCs along the coast as nighttime bases. Striking early in the morning at the nest and since the CS are not against killing civilians, which also helps thin out future recruits for the VN. With the CS having so many psychics, dog boys, Psi-stalkers, robots, air support, man power, money and vampires have so many weaknesses for a prepared force to exploit.

[Killer Cyborg]

Heavy bombing from CS Talons, Aircastle bombers and modified deaths head transports. Altitude is your friend.

If the bombers are high enough up no one (bugs that is) would know who dropped them and have no one to place that threat with.

They have to be flying more than 10,000 feet up, but yes.
Bombs would be pretty effective.
It would be an expensive endeavor, though, and would only really be good at busting up the towers and killing a relatively small percentage of the bugs overall.
And the bugs might adjust their strategies over the course of a prolonged bombing campaign.

And this is assuming the bugs sit back and wait for the CS to come to them, instead of mounting an offensive at some point.

[Shark_Force]

the bugs are constantly expanding their territory, unless the hive's territory has reached maximum size. at which point, they send out groups to make new hives. and then those new hives all start expanding their territory.

[Killer Cyborg]

Heavy bombing from CS Talons, Aircastle bombers and modified deaths head transports. Altitude is your friend.

If the bombers are high enough up no one (bugs that is) would know who dropped them and have no one to place that threat with.

They have to be flying more than 10,000 feet up, but yes.
Bombs would be pretty effective.
It would be an expensive endeavor, though, and would only really be good at busting up the towers and killing a relatively small percentage of the bugs overall.
And the bugs might adjust their strategies over the course of a prolonged bombing campaign.

And this is assuming the bugs sit back and wait for the CS to come to them, instead of mounting an offensive at some point.

Well if the CS does nothing to them before the bombing raid it is most likely the bugs will only attack when they expand to a new hive.

I'm talking about AFTER the bombing raid.
It's not like one group of bombers is going to kill all (or even most, or even close to half) of the bugs in one run.

[Lenwen]

In fact fort Barron has over 4440 Skelebots to counter a swarm attack but even with all the weapons and what not the fort can only handle up to 90,000 bugs during one attack. But it is still a very Spartan like moral booster for the CS army, the whole "If only a few thousand bots and soldiers killed that many bugs, wait till we get ahold of 'Em!!" kinda feel.

The only way 4,440 skelebots can counter 90,000 Xitixic is if they in fact needed only 1 shot per kill per Xit , since that is impossible.

No way can 4,440 Skelebots ( which are known to be incredibly stupid tactically ) Can handle even twice thier own number of 8,880 Xitixic .

It states it in Canon, that fort Barron can repeal a force up to 90,000 bugs before a general retreat is needed, and that half of the forces would be lost in the pull out.

Which book an what page please ?

This I would need to see for myself no offense.

*Edit .

After skimming THREW the Xit book itself I notice that you are Maximizing the Damage output of the CS ( 90,000 Xit's they can handle ) and minimizing (50% loss of retreating CS personell) the loss of the CS in an eventual overun .

Two things really fast.

1) - The overall number of Barron Base personall = 11,590 human troops + 640 total Dogboys complimented with 4,440 Skelebots.

It is estimated that in a full scale war, the advanced weapons an mobile armored units at Fort Barron could handle as many as 70,000 - 90,000 Xitixic.

2) - The overall number of lost CS personel in the advent of a base wide evac is 50% (low end) to 75% (high end) loss .

Any greater number will overrun the base and the troops will be forced to retreat with an estimated 50-75% casualty rate.

3) - No where in the entire description does it state that 4,440 Skelebots ALONE could take out 90,000 Xitixic. As per your implying that they could. It would in fact take the bases entire compliment of CS personel and Skelebots litterally Everything they HAVE to be able to DEFEND the base with out losing it. And that is any enmass attack by the Xit with numbers of 70,000-90,000 sized swarm.


16k total skelebots/Dogboys/Humans taking out 70k is only 4.5ish kill ratio on the part of the Defenders. Which is about what would be expected.

Thats not that spartan like if you ask me personally.

[Shark_Force]

they would need a lot more than a day. we're talking weeks or even months to actually destroy the 'army' of xiticix. the structure itself will sit there and do nothing, of course. the xiticix will go ballistic, swarm around, and start going crazy. sure, they won't attack the aircraft flying overhead if they're beyond the reach of the xiticix, but don't take that to mean the xiticix themselves are gonna just sit there knitting a new sweater while you drop bombs on them. most likely, they will start attacking any bombs you drop on them, and with the number of xiticix attacking those bombs, the likelihood of any more reaching the base anytime soon are pretty low.

[Killer Cyborg]

It's not like one group of bombers is going to kill all (or even most, or even close to half) of the bugs in one run.

Agreed bombing raids would need to be done for a day or to straight and non-stop if they have any hope of crushing the surface forces

And how many bombers does the CS currently have....?

Spoiler:

Not enough.

[Lenwen]

A) - I did state "Skelebots and what not" I never stated 4400 alone could repeal them. This is one of the only base or things noted that tell you about skelebots being used to repeal or even defend against Xic's,

B) - And again you are forgetting the bugs have a low tech level next to the CS, I'm sorry but the tech of the CS evens out the Bugs edge in numbers.

C) - and to counter a point you made the toughest (mdc that is) is a queen the strongest warrior doesn't even come close to a Super SAMAS

D) - and most SAMAS can drop a bug at close range in two or three shots.

I hope that you do not mind that I make clear my answers to your counter by seperating parts of your post with which I will respond accordingly.

A) - You did not state the words , 4,440 Skelebots could repel them. You implied it.

B) - No possible way. Billions of Xitixic vs Coalition. If a single Xitixic finds out where those Fortress Cities are its over for the CS . Imagine Billions of Xitixic flat out enmass swarming the Fortress Cities. Each Xit is a MDC being with Sup Strength. Each punch inficts Mega Damage. I personally think that a mear 100,000 Xitixic alone would be more then able to swarm a small section of a Fortress city and actually break into the City propper before it is nuetralized.
C) - It does not take a thousand or more MDC per being when you have litterally millions upon millions of beings rushing you your "Tech" only has so many shots per eclip , If your not hooked up to something that grants your weapon unlimited ammo your toast.

Quick example.
Super Samas - 425 MDC. / 38 robotic ps /500mph flight
1050lbs carry throw at , 2100lbs lift

Super Hunter - 220+MDC / 40 Sup PS. / 160 speed flight / 700 - 1000lbs
2000lbs carry throw at 40ft , 4000lbs lift.

Yes the Samas has nearly double the amount of MDC , But the Xit can pick up dead Samas and use them as a club , or throwing them at other samas ..

And for every single 1 Super Samas , there is quite litterally , 1,000 Super hunters. No matter what tech you throw at those kinds of numbers your eventually going down . And that is "IF" the Xit's are not using long range weaponry themselves.

P.S.
Supernatural Strength of 40 is nearly TWICE as strong as a Robotic Strength of 38. Robotic strength is not as powerful as Supernatural strength. I have no clue where you got the idea of a Samas being JUST as strong as a Xitixic.

D) - Sure virtually any Super Samas can drop a Xit in 2 melee actions normally . But when your going up against a swarm, its not the "Single" Xit you have to worry about, its the FIRST Xit you see that you have to worry about. Its all his "Buddies" that are gunning for you as well that you have to worry about.

If there is 1 thing true about the Xit, its that they Roll DEEP SON !

There is no viable way if the CS and the Xitixic race were to be at war with only each other an no one else at all the CS would not be able to win that war. (with out huge script "Immunities" given them)

[Dustin Fireblade]

B) - No possible way. Billions of Xitixic vs Coalition. If a single Xitixic finds out where those Fortress Cities are its over for the CS . Imagine Billions of Xitixic flat out enmass swarming the Fortress Cities. Each Xit is a MDC being with Sup Strength. Each punch inficts Mega Damage. I personally think that a mear 100,000 Xitixic alone would be more then able to swarm a small section of a Fortress city and actually break into the City propper before it is nuetralized.

Lenwen there can be trillions of the bugs - it doesn't matter at all.

General Holmes is leading the CS War against them!



(although I don't think there are billions of them anyway - WB23 pg 85 lists their population at between 30-50 million by 109 PA)

[Lenwen]

B) - No possible way. Billions of Xitixic vs Coalition. If a single Xitixic finds out where those Fortress Cities are its over for the CS . Imagine Billions of Xitixic flat out enmass swarming the Fortress Cities. Each Xit is a MDC being with Sup Strength. Each punch inficts Mega Damage. I personally think that a mear 100,000 Xitixic alone would be more then able to swarm a small section of a Fortress city and actually break into the City propper before it is nuetralized.

Lenwen there can be trillions of the bugs - it doesn't matter at all.

General Holmes is leading the CS War against them!



(although I don't think there are billions of them anyway - WB23 pg 85 lists their population at between 30-50 million by 109 PA)

Those are estimates which very well could be off by the same number overall as the 30-50 million original number itself.

If you take those numbers as HARD numerical of the race, Your sourly in for a rude awakening.



EDIT :
The Xitixic species ones its original Hive reaches 500 million beings , splits off into 6 different other Hive's . Each consisting of no less then 83 - 83.33 million beings.

There are 6 Hive's right now. Meaning there are at LEAST 500 total million Xitixic beings.

Your "Estimate" of 30-40 million is so dramatically off no one has any real clue how many Xit there truly are.

In another year or two there very well could be 6 "NEW" Hive's at the current rate of Species rate of birth. That is my personal opinion.

[Killer Cyborg]

(although I don't think there are billions of them anyway - WB23 pg 85 lists their population at between 30-50 million by 109 PA)

No, WB23 pg 85 lists Lazlo's estimates of the Xiticix's numbers at between 30-50 million by 109 PA.

BIG difference, since part of the whole point of that section is that the CS and other powers are drastically underestimating the numbers.

[Lenwen]

Another question is is there a force that can stop the CSA on Rifts Earth?

I'd say also that Arkhons would be able to also go up against the CS an more then likely win.