How normal SDC creature survive in an MDC universe.

[Kurseteller]

Hi. I'm new to the boards, but I've owned palladium products ever since sentinels came out. I've always wondered: How did normal people/elves survive in the outbacks and boonies wothout MDC weapons and Armor? My theory is they don't. So how come there are all these little hamlets of sdc Dbs and humans everywhere? Well outside of having a Psi or magics user, which are hated, or PA/laser/body armor then there screwed, by the world. Unless....

They have access to shade tree craftsman. I say high powerd rifles firing MDC style bullets are more common, backed up by rifle MDC grenades would solve the problems of the continuty about how these small hamelets survive. They also make MDC Armor form MD creatures and the destroyed mecha/ building everywhere. I'm thinking there using modified, homebuilt .50 cal rifle that do a minium mdc and have homebuilt gredads that do 1/2 what normal MDC does. So, what do yall think of this theory.

[Killer Cyborg]

This has come up before.

The problem is that you (and many other people) have a number of misperceptions about the game world:
1. That MDC is more common than it actually is.
2. That MDC creatures kill more often than they do.
3. That SDC creatures are entirely defenseless against MDC threats.

Here are some threads for you to browse through:
viewtopic.php?p=1047911
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=54483
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=76601
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42824
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=41516

Here is a post I made a while back on the subject:
viewtopic.php?p=1894005#p1894005

Well in the last 6 to 9 months of playing our campaign I think S.D.C. damage came into play less than a dozen times and as for MDC threats are, for most people, rare. I would have to say your vision of the Rifts must be way safer than the world books lead me to believe. With millions of Xiticixs to the north, a few million Spulgorth minions on Atlantis, Dinosaurs in south west and east, evil Mystic Knights around the Marylands, Minions of Lord of the Deep in the oceans, Archie's bots can show up anywhere, plus vampires, demons, golems, dragons, ghosts, elementals, cyborgs, juicers, Coalition troops, grumpy Indians, trolls and all the monsters from the random rifts that can open anywhere, sure it's not that uncommon for the common folk to run into trouble. The strong pick on the weak because it's not as much fun when they can possibly loss.

Yup.
There's all sorts of stuff out there that wants to kill you.
It's just that in most places it's not a daily, weekly, or monthly occurrence.
Some places, not even yearly.

Read the original Rifts book.
"The average person is not likely to have psionics nor mega-damage weapons and armor. He is not a master of magic nor holder of great truths. He is one of the ordinary folk who live and struggle with the day to day hardships of life."

"The entire world is mostly wilderness with scattered little towns, villages, and outposts. Cities are fairly uncommon, generally speaking. The environment, regardless of the level of technology or magic, is feudal-like, with kingdoms rather than cities, states, provinces, or nations as thought of in the 20th century.
The majority of these feudal kingdoms are ruled by, or appoint, or employ, a protector of group of protectors, much like the knights of old. The protector(s) is always a powerful warrior, frequently armed with power armor or giant robot vehicles. Men of arms seem to be the norm among these champions, but they can be mages, psychic, mutants, and even monsters."

The worldbooks are indeed chock full of MDC stuff, but there's a good reason for that:
RAG, 105
"Barbarians and wilderness people are the average folks of Rifts North America. We don't talk about them much because their lives are pretty grim and not particularly exotic. They are not the stuff of high adventure, so instead we tend to focus on the big cities, kingdoms and Coalition States. However, such bastions of civilization are, however, the true rarity."

The writers write about the stuff that is exciting and exotic, and that's not normal people doing normal things.
They don't write a World Book about the 100 square mile patch of Wisconsin where nothing really happens; they write about the most dangerous or potentially exciting places of the planet.

Read RUE.
P. 19, from Erin Tarn:
"I have had city folk question how it can be with all the fabled towns, tribes, clans, D-Bees and monsters they hear about, that one doesn't stumble over one hiding behind every tree. It doesn't work that way. The wildlife hides from intruders like us, the innocent animals run to avoid becoming hunted, and the predators watch from a nervous distance at least until they are ready to strike. People hear there may be hundred, thousands, even tens of thousands of a particular species, but they forget that number is spread across vast expanses of land, or that perhaps as few as one or two or a dozen may live in any given area. A predator like a mountain lion, for example, will consider one particular area that might cover 100 or 200 square miles as its domain or hunting ground and only it and its made prowl it (along with other species of predators). That's a large area that city dwellers can't adequately picture, and such a range is tiny compared to the sweeping wilderness that covers our land."

There are bobcats living in my neck of the woods in real life, but I've lived here over thirty years and have only seen a bobcat ONCE.

Just because there's stuff out there doesn't mean that it's a common occurrence.
Just because there are certain areas where certain Mega-Damage threats are common does not mean that they're common everywhere.
Of course you're going to find dinosaurs in the Dinosaur Swamps; it's an extraordinarily dangerous place, even for Rifts Earth.
Of course you're going to find Splugorth minions in Atlantis; it's an extraordinarily dangerous place, even for Rifts Earth.
Of course you're going to find Xiticix in Xiticix territory; it's an extraordinarily dangerous place, even for Rifts Earth.

And yes, you can run into evil bots, demons, monsters, mutants, bandits, etc. pretty much anywhere in North America.... but you can also NOT run into them.

Of course, the books don't focus on NOT running into them, because that's generally not a very fun adventure.

And another:
viewtopic.php?p=1465669#p1465669

Here's the problem:
MDC is one heck of a lot less common than you assume.
Or, at least, it was that way in the main book. Years of accumulated power creep, combined with writers who focus only on MDC life instead of SDC life, have skewed things a bit.

Here's how people survive on Rifts Earth without being in MDC EBA all the time:
-MDC threats are really pretty darn rare. The Adventuring classes in the books are supposed to be rare. There are plenty of places on Rifts Earth where you should be able to walk around in normal clothing without expecting any real trouble. The majority of the population of Rifts Earth has little to no MDC gear, and the majority of animals and plants are still SDC.
-When trouble heads your way, duck, hide, and suit up. Get inside a MDC vehicle, for example. Or have the mage put up an Energy Field or something. This is also where the Juicer abilities to never be surprised, and auto-dodge come in handy.
-Not everybody and everything wants to kill you. Say the PCs are out for an SDC picnic and they get ambushed by a rare group of MDC bandits. What happens?
More likely than not, the PCs get robbed of their gear, but left alive.
What happens then?
Well, that depends. Maybe the PCs spend their time tracking the bandits to their lair, and ambush them in return. Maybe the PCs get have to travel unarmed through the wilderness for a while, having multiple adventures trying to regain significant Mega-Damage capability.
It's an adventure; have fun with it.
-Of the things that DO want to kill you, not all of them will do it right away. Animalistic MDC predators might show up, but an unarmored PC who still has his gun can dodge and shoot at it.
Animals (and creatures with animal intelligence) don't like pain; most should run away after a few shots.

[glitterboy2098]

you also have a rifter article which goes into dietary issues with MDC creatures. basically, MDC creatures need more nutrients than SDC creatures of the same mass, due to having denser biological parts. which means MDC predators can only survive effectively on MDC prey, since only those provide enough nutrition. for an MDC predator, eating SDC prey is like us eating cotton candy. might have an appealing flavor, but totally worthless to survival nutrition wise.

(they don't go into MDC herbivores, which given the lack of natural MDC plants might seem to be in trouble, but most trees and such have hundreds of SDC, and would thus suffice. so seeing a tritops chowing down on whole oak Trees probably wouldn't be out of place. heck, they have the beak and teeth for it...)

intellegent MDC predatos hunt and eat humans for much the same reason we'd eat a candy bar. because they enjoy it, despite it being not very good for them. the fact that, unlike a candy bar, their prey thinks for itself, and can put up a challenge in hunting and making the kill....just makes it a treat for their mind as well.

SDC villages will generally learn the habits of the threats in their area (much like tribes in africa learn the habits of lions, or tribes in india learn the habits of tigers), and build their shelters in areas that won't attract predators, learn to avoid certain areas that tend to see hostile activity (nesting sites, for example. or major territorial landmarks), as well as learning tricks to evade predators or disguise themselves from them.

generally locals will be able to live without provoking the predators. it's the ignorant actions of outsiders (colonists, refugees, adventurers, etc) that provoke them.


plus it helps that a good percent of humanity is at least mildly psychic, and thus able to leverage those abilities to support their community.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Nice Reply KC.

Another factor that some people don't factor in is that MDC critters don't really get much out of eating SDC critters. It comes up in information on cooking and the like. An MDC critter eating an SDC Critter is like... You or I eating... cotton candy. Sure it might taste good and makes for an excellent treat but there's no nutirional value to doing it and it would take just astronomical ammounts of cotton candy to keep a human alive for a week. Much less regular living.

MDC Meat has something like 3 times the protean and 10 times the vitamins and stuff as regular meat (( if the numbers are off, forgive me, I don't remember them exact)), It's one of the reasons many out back type humans will hunt a dino and kill it for it's meat (( or a fury beatle or what ever)) Once the kill it and get it skinned and prepared it can feed a village for months and months. Granted it takes special technique to make MDC meat edible but they're covered in some of the rifters and what not.

So most of your MDC Critters get no benefit from eating SDC ones. So.. they mostly don't. Sure if they run across you and you scare them or kick their nest or what have you, they might kill you. But so might a grizzly bear if you say.. kick it's baby cub.

This goes for MDC Herbavors and plants too. Because this debate usually stears that way "Well the big MDC Herbivore dinos would eat all the plants and then we'd all die" Well they eat the MDC plants that rifted in when they did.

MDC Critters eating MDC Critters also helps to keep the number of MDC Critters down and not sky rocketing.

This adds on to what KC Has posted above wich is a very good post and exactly what I'd have said. If he didn't post it so well before me.

[Kurseteller]

All right, here is my problem with them having no access to stuff outside of Extremely hitech or magic. I thought that Magic, Psi, and High Tech are rare and (for magic and tech) takes knowlege to work( micro circuitry/occult). If they are rare, then what does the normal folks use? OK how common are MDC creatures, dragons, brodkill, minor mdc killer rabit per square mile. Now how about hamlets of sdc DBs and humans. Do some bow down, some hide like ninja, and some just run very fast? That doesn't make sense when you have to farm, hunt in the area, raise cattle, and raise children. A laser may take 2000 credits to purchase, but the whole farm/ hunter gather society might only see 1500 per year in trade.( If I'm getting my guess work here). I know rifts has an inflated monetary system that breaks down if you look at it too closely and I know that it's a game of super heroic adventure, but it does not compute that the people on the egde of society wouldn't grab for anything to survive. It's cheaper and easier to make High Caliber firearms and Explosives than Energy cannons and railguns. You can make them with a forge, casts, and bowls. Hmmm, maybe I'm looking at it wrong. I would think that it is easier for a low tech hamlet to make projectiles and grenades than to buy the High tech or bye cheap parts to put some stuff together. How rare is rare for MDC and how common are sdc villages/ population?

[ShadowLogan]

Another thing to consider is that some MDC critters are vulnerable to certain materials (like silver) to such an extent that an SDC weapon will do MDC if it is made from (or a certain purity) that material. This was more true in earlier Rifts books than later/recent ones IINM.

One really does not need MDC weapons to hurt a werewolf or vampire as ordinary SDC silver weapons will do the job. The Original Rifts Main Book had a quick roll table for MDC monsters, and included vulnerabilities such as these.

[Shadyslug]

I think it's a mistake to think that MDC creatures have any more nutritional value than SDC creatures.

Biology works in funny ways...like "why is mayonaise so bad for you?" and "how come Ranch Dressing has so many calories?" and finally "will this chili give me really bad gas?"

I know...mundane questions and probably not all that great...but seriously...we eat all KINDS of foods that seem like they have nothing to them, but they actually pack quite a punch.

People who want to say that MDC creatures need to eat MDC creatures to survive lack a basic understanding of how physiology actually works...

[Pepsi Jedi]

I think it's a mistake to think that MDC creatures have any more nutritional value than SDC creatures.

Biology works in funny ways...like "why is mayonaise so bad for you?" and "how come Ranch Dressing has so many calories?" and finally "will this chili give me really bad gas?"

I know...mundane questions and probably not all that great...but seriously...we eat all KINDS of foods that seem like they have nothing to them, but they actually pack quite a punch.

People who want to say that MDC creatures need to eat MDC creatures to survive lack a basic understanding of how physiology actually works...

No. It's not that they lack understanding of how physiology works.

It's that it's a fantasy setting and they're magicly or extra dimensionally different and there for work on different physiology rules.

In short, they use different scientific rule sets for their builds and make ups. In this setting, Rifts earth, this is how the science breaks down.

You can't hold beings from other dimensions or supersaturated in magic or what ever to the point that they become stronger than the strongest most tweeked out, badass tank we have on the planet today... to the science we have for bunny rabbits.

It's just different.

[Shadyslug]

So then...explain giant herbivore dinosaurs...

Sure...yeah...I know...not unique to this dimension...blah blah blah.

But I'm pretty sure they do what they do without having to eat MDC plants...

*I'm not really arguing with you...it's just that I think it's more than just "magical" explanations...

[glitterboy2098]

So then...explain giant herbivore dinosaurs...

Sure...yeah...I know...not unique to this dimension...blah blah blah.

But I'm pretty sure they do what they do without having to eat MDC plants...

*I'm not really arguing with you...it's just that I think it's more than just "magical" explanations...

MDC creatures are tougher and stronger than SDC creatures. this means more muscle mass and such. compare a normal human to a worlds strongest man. normal person, needs 1500 calories a day. worlds strongest men, 3000+.

when you need that much more, you have two options. the first is eating ultra-nutritious foods (that have lots of extra nutrients and calories), or eating lots of less nutritious foods, even if it means eating huge quantities.

now, for an MDC herbivore, MDC plants would be the "ultra-nutritious food". just jam packed with all the stuff they need. the alternative is to massive quantities of the less nutritious SDC plants.

lets return to my tritops example. not alot of MDC plants out west. but there are SDC trees and bushes. which can have hundreds of SDC per tree. so to fuel their MDC bodies, that family of tritops would need to knockdown (easily done with their mass and strength), then chow down on the tree, trunk and all. and they'd need to eat almost continuously (which probably was true in prehistoric times too...) same goes for the duckbill honkers. (i'd suspect in dinoswamp several species of prehistoric plant came through the time holes, which are also "almost MDC", providing sufficent nutrition for all those herbivores.

now lets look at the T-rex. MDC predator. it has the option of eating whole herds of buffalo a day, or killing a tritops or duckbill every few days. which is easier? making the duckbill kill every few days represents a much lower level of exertion. hunting buffalo would mean finding a herd, running it down, gobbling up a single buffalo, then running down the herd again, wash, rinse, repeat. constant running just to get a few mouthfuls of food. good weight loss program, not a good way to survive.
taking down the duckbill just means finding a herd, running it down, killing one, and surviving off the carcass for a couple of days. much less work, for much better gain.

so the MDC ecosystem is a fairly small number of MDC herbivores eating SDC plants (including trees) almost constantly, being preyed apon by MDC predators almost exclusively.

[MikelAmroni]

On the MDC herbivores and predators bit of the thread:

While the book is for D&D, Expeditious Retreat press put out an excellent book that gives you the basic theory of why and how magical creatures evolve. Rather than give you the details of that, I will sumarize it for you. It boils down to something that they present a bit haphazardly that Palladium puts very succinctly. Magical animals and plants feed on PPE and the basic nutrients in their food source of choice. PPE gets absorbed by the plants and animals in their environments, and certain animals and plants absorb more than others. It is these animals and plants with a higher concentration of PPE that makes the difference between what a Rhino Buffalo or dinosaur eats, and what a lion or crocodile eats. The PPE is not "used," per se, but rather it supercharges the nutritional value of the food, and makes it work better for the heightened metabolisms of these apex predators and herbivores. Given this, we can surmize that part of the unconscious choice of prey goes into "smelling" the juciest meal, and chowing down. Given a choice between a raptor and a human, a T-rex will choose a raptor all the time. Of course he wants both, but they are gluttons like that. And the raptors definately want the T-rex over the humans. A LOT more nutritional meat than a human, even a man of magic. An oak, being a grand old tree with a logn life absorbs a lot of PPE, even though it is SDC in nature. Would a man of magic notice it? No, no more than he would notice it in the dirt and rocks, and we can rest assured its there too. It also gives a bit of "power" to the random forest fire that helps redistribute the inherant PPE in an area back into the soil (not to mention nutrients, etc). It also makes the psi-stalker ability to be accepted by animals make more sense. they would run a definate negative on PPE, even just after feeding, so they would seem less like a threat. Predators see them as competition, but are content as long as they are driven out of the area. Is this theory a bit of a stretch? Perhaps, but given that we have lines of magic miles long appearing for no reason, it stands as reasonably logical, that the land itself holds some magic that is welling up into these ley lines, and thet ley lines help permeate the land even more with power, creating a self sustaining cycle of PPE and natural (and unnatural) growth.

As for the survival of humans and normal SDC creatures, I don't see why this is exactly a problem to see. Given my suposition above, they are less tasty to MDC predators than larger prey, and too far above the average SDC predators to worry about unless challenged or they are alone. As long as they show the basic sense of prehistoric tribes (stay out of the danger areas, build defensible homes, gather what weapons you can and try and scare off those predators that do intrude) they are golden. As for the more intelligent threats, well its a big area and the best way to cover it is on foot or by driving through. Most peasants in Rifts times are very content to never wander from their village as long as their basic needs are met. if a traveller comes through with news, awesome, if not, then they'll get by as they always have. If they lack a few conviences, then they'll manage through hardwork and ingenuity. If a marauding force comes to the next valley over and never heads their way, they'll never know or care.

But that's just how I see it.

[Kurseteller]

Hmmm. Maybe I should modify this post to say How do SDC Humans and DBs survive cut off from Magic, science, or High Tech. But I do get what your saying on the creatures of the wild being ignored because there not the main food source. But if MDC creature are so rare and they hunt each other, what happens when there is no MDC creature nearby to hunt. I'm assuming the same demographics as the outlying villages/hamlets. I think one per 200 miles? As for the humans and DBs, what about home built Minor MDC weapons as postulated in the first post? Instead of the more complicated, expensive, and rare Magic and High tech weapons?

[glitterboy2098]

Hmmm. Maybe I should modify this post to say How do SDC Humans and DBs survive cut off from Magic, science, or High Tech. But I do get what your saying on the creatures of the wild being ignored because there not the main food source. But if MDC creature are so rare and they hunt each other, what happens when there is no MDC creature nearby to hunt.

generally the same thing that happens with lions and tigers when the local prey vanishes. drift to places where there is enough prey.

but generally there isn't a need to, since given the area of territory the predator can claim, they're not likely to face such a situation.

a modern lion pride can claim up to a 300 square miles. a T-rex, being bigger, meaner, faster, and with better senses of smell and hearing, would generally be able to claim several times that. if there isn't prey in that wide area, your entire ecosystem is all screwed up.

and this presumes their prey stays in mostly one area. more likely, given dietary habits, the herbivores will migrate, moving constantly to areas in search of food. almost universally, if the predator's main foodsource are these migratory herds, the predator itself will be migratory, moving along the same routes as the herds, following it's foodsource. they still claim terrirtory, but only so long as the herd is still in the area. once the herd moves on, so do the predators.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Yep, what GB said.

They either migrate to area's with better prey, or just like here in normal times, they'd starve.

Just the presence of a creature on Rifts earth doesn't mean it's biologically suited to be there. In the case of MDC predators it's very likely they came though a rift and are slowly eating their way though MDC prey. (( might be a reason for them to sometimes hunt inferior SDC prey))

If you take a rift to... wormwood, and you run out of water before you find a native to make a fountain or something, you might thirst to death.

While you could live on wormwood, not being able to find that water might hurt ya.

Same thing. A dinosaur from a rift might not be able to find MDC food in time to stay alive.

[MikelAmroni]

Hmmm. Maybe I should modify this post to say How do SDC Humans and DBs survive cut off from Magic, science, or High Tech. I'm assuming the same demographics as the outlying villages/hamlets. I think one per 200 miles? As for the humans and DBs, what about home built Minor MDC weapons as postulated in the first post? Instead of the more complicated, expensive, and rare Magic and High tech weapons?

That's certainly possible. For examples, I would suggest looking at the Dinosaur swamp books. It has some low tech low MD weapons that could be made with only a minimal amount of technology and know how. It also has some low level magic items that a mystic could manage (the most common man of magic in those types of area, since there is no one to train them). Also, once you make a minor MD weapon, you can start bringing down bigger prey, and then you can start working on getting armor for your main defenders. I don't have the books in front of me, but they are, I think, the best source for ideas on how the "little people" survive. And for every village that manages this level of sophistication, there are ten others that don't really need to (near a defender of some sort, not in an area that sees trouble most of the time, etc).

[Killer Cyborg]

All right, here is my problem with them having no access to stuff outside of Extremely hitech or magic. I thought that Magic, Psi, and High Tech are rare and (for magic and tech) takes knowlege to work( micro circuitry/occult). If they are rare, then what does the normal folks use?

Low tech.

OK how common are MDC creatures, dragons, brodkill, minor mdc killer rabit per square mile.

Depends on the creatures in question and the area in question.

Now how about hamlets of sdc DBs and humans.

One of the links I posted was an entire thread about SDC towns vs. MDC threats.
Read it.

Do some bow down, some hide like ninja, and some just run very fast?

Yes.

That doesn't make sense when you have to farm, hunt in the area, raise cattle, and raise children.

How not?

How rare is rare for MDC and how common are sdc villages/ population?

The Rifts Adventure Guide has information on creating towns & cities (p. 110-123).

The average seems to be a large village or small town that is likely to have a small cache of high-tech or magic weapons and a volunteer militia and/or sheriff.
The typical population of such a community would be as small as 3d6x10+60 or as much as 1d6x100+60.

Keep in mind that's the average. The Adventure Guide has information on making all sizes of villages/towns. It's a very handy book.

[Dr. Doom III]

How does a basically defenceless animal like a deer survive in a world with such dangerous animals like bears and wolves?

The same way they'd survive if bears and wolves were MDC creatures.

They run, they hide, there are a lot of them. All those stratigies work just as well as they always did.

[Killer Cyborg]

How does a basically defenceless animal like a deer survive in a world with such dangerous animals like bears and wolves?

The same way they'd survive if bears and wolves were MDC creatures.

They run, they hide, there are a lot of them. All those stratigies work just as well as they always did.

You've said that before, and I thought about quoting the post because it's solid logic.

All that prey has to do to survive is live long enough to breed faster than the predators can eat.

[Kurseteller]

Alright, I'm getting that nothings changed from normal Earth to Rifts Earth except where people have access to MDC power/ High tech Equipment. That's in 90% of the world, except for xictlix territory, Gargoyle territory, and really high concentrations of Hungry/ slaughter happy Creatures. What exmples of Low Tech MDC, that can be upkept by villagers, or put together on the run when your High Tech Stuff ( Ya, I know, stuff doen't break down in rift, is easily repairable, and is easilly repairable, and doesn't even need fuel, but lets pretend a post apocalyptic world where resources are scarce )

[glitterboy2098]

its not that nothing has changed in the world, since that is obviously untrue, it's that most MDC beings are one of two things. either animalistic creatures, or sapient/sentient creatures.

animalistic creatures are going to behave like animals. and despite what you see on TV or movies, that means they'll eat, sleep, breed, and generally avoid attacking man, usually because we aren't a threat, or aren't a good source of food. movies and Tv like to show animals attacking or hunting men because it's dramatic and make for interesting TV. but it is absurdly rare in real life. generally when animals are attacking people, it's because the people were idiots and provoked the animal in some way.

the intellegent creatures will generally understand their biological needs as well as having a basic understanding of cause and effect. they'll know that SDC creatures aren't very filling, and the MDC ones are. thus they'll prefer to go after the MDC ones. they'll also know that they can't just terrorize a community with impunity, since it'll result in either the people leaving, which gets rid of it's fun, or the people working to get someone or something to fight back, which puts the creatures life in danger. so these creatures will generally be smart and try to hide the fact their in the area, picking off isolated people or stragglers, and leave the communities alone.

[Grell]

Hi. I'm new to the boards, but I've owned palladium products ever since sentinels came out. I've always wondered: How did normal people/elves survive in the outbacks and boonies wothout MDC weapons and Armor? My theory is they don't. So how come there are all these little hamlets of sdc Dbs and humans everywhere? Well outside of having a Psi or magics user, which are hated, or PA/laser/body armor then there screwed, by the world. Unless....

They have access to shade tree craftsman. I say high powerd rifles firing MDC style bullets are more common, backed up by rifle MDC grenades would solve the problems of the continuty about how these small hamelets survive. They also make MDC Armor form MD creatures and the destroyed mecha/ building everywhere. I'm thinking there using modified, homebuilt .50 cal rifle that do a minium mdc and have homebuilt gredads that do 1/2 what normal MDC does. So, what do yall think of this theory.

Hopefully I'm not covering what's already been mentioned!

Consider this, a lot of supernatural menaces and demons take great delight in bullying, brutalizing and generally lording over lesser beings, no matter how weak. This favors SDC creatures survivability to an extent. Same can be said of mortal threats that do wield MDC technology. Sure you could take a walk and level every hamlet you came across, but it's usually more gratifying to yield to your base emotions. Wanting to dominate, enslave and rule are powerful driving forces that can, at least for a little while, lead to feelings of being respected, appreciated (or unappreciated if they're looking for a pity party), etc...

It's already been mentioned, but I'll second it: supernatural creatures and the demonic have some ridiculously simple weaknesses!

I REALLY liked the point of nutritional needs and availability and how that affects hunting patterns, territory and SDC creatures ability to survive! Kudos!

[Killer Cyborg]

What exmples of Low Tech MDC, that can be upkept by villagers, or put together on the run when your High Tech Stuff ( Ya, I know, stuff doen't break down in rift, is easily repairable, and is easilly repairable, and doesn't even need fuel, but lets pretend a post apocalyptic world where resources are scarce )

It depends on how low-tech you want to go.
Modern firearms would be considered low-tech compared to the futuristic tech of Rifts Earth, but would be of some use.
An assault rifle firing bursts of armor piercing bullets will have a chance of inflicting over 100 SDC in one attack, which would inflict 1 MD to MDC creatures.
A light or medium machine gun firing a long burst can inflict 2d6x10+20 SDC, which again gives a chance to inflict 1 MD to MDC creatures.
Heavy machineguns can do up to 2d8x10+20 SDC on a long burst, which will inflict 1 MD on an average hit.

This isn't going to kill any decent MDC creatures unless you have a LOT of machine guns, but it's not all about killing.
Creatures don't like getting hurt. They don't like loud noises.
Most supernatural predators would be kept at bay or chased off, whether or not the weapons were a deadly threat.
The same general principle applies to black powder weapons. They still make noise. Larger black powder guns (cannons & mortars) can inflict MD. Plus, they smell bad.
A town full of people shooting at a MDC critter is likely to slow it down or chase it off.

Also, firearms can use specialty loads based on whatever local critters are the biggest threat. We see this in the Vampire Kingdoms book, where humans commonly use SDC firearms with silver bullets. Other creatures might be affected by iron, or wood, or salt, or another substance that could be loaded into a gun.

For that matter, bows and crossbows can be loaded with specialty rounds. Straight wood arrows are good for vampires. Silver-tipped would be good against other critters. Flaming arrows would be good against other.
The key is that almost every monster has a weakness of some kind (just look at the random monster generation tables in the original Rifts book). You just have to exploit it.

But maybe your town is menaced by a supernatural being that you simply cannot hurt or chase away.
In that case, it comes down to motive; what does the creature want?
If all it wants to do is to endlessly slaughter every living thing it can find, your only chance is to evacuate and run off in different directions.

If all it wants to do is to eat flesh now and then (a common one), you find out what it likes to eat and appease it. Tie a sheep (or three) to a stake on the edge of town every night. A lot of creatures will go for the easy prey.
Of course, it might not like sheep. It might like to devour humans. This poses a slightly bigger moral problem, but when the whole community is at stake, people tend to be willing to sacrifice the occasional person for the good of the whole. As long as the creature doesn't eat faster than the town can breed, they'll survive.
Not only that, but because such monsters tend to be territorial, the town now has a protector.
Whatever the critter is, he/she/it won't want anything else breaking into its lunch box.

But some creatures don't even want to eat flesh. Some feed on other stuff.
For the ones that feed on PPE, they like to kill in order to get the doubled PPE from death, so it nets out the same as if they're eating the people.
Other creatures feed on fear. Which means that they're only going to kill enough people to keep the town afraid of it, and they might not have to kill anybody to do that.
Just show up now and then and say "Boo!"

Other creatures just want to rule over people. So they move in and pull the whole evil despot bit.
It won't be pleasant, but the odds are that the community itself will survive.

There's a scene in the movie Catch-22 where Nately is talking to an old man in a whorehouse in Italy.
The old man is explaining that Italy survives because it is weak.

Old man in whorehouse: I'm a very moral man, and Italy is a very moral country. That's why we will certainly come out on top again if we succeed in being defeated.
Capt. Nately: You talk like a madman.
Old man in whorehouse: But I live like a sane one. I was a fascist when Mussolini was on top. Now that he has been deposed, I am anti-fascist. When the Germans were here, I was fanatically pro-German. Now I'm fanatically pro-American. You'll find no more loyal partisan in all of Italy than myself.
Capt. Nately: You're a shameful opportunist! What you don't understand is that it's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees.
Old man in whorehouse: You have it backwards. It's better to live on your feet than to die on your knees. I know.
Capt. Nately: How do you know?
Old man in whorehouse: Because I am 107-years-old. How old are you?
Capt. Nately: I'll be 20 in January.
Old man in whorehouse: If you live.

Now go watch The Magnificent Seven, and ask yourself who won.
And how they did it.

[glitterboy2098]

"The tree that does not bend with the wind will be broken by the wind"
- Mandarin Chinese proverb

this simple bit of advice has variations native to nearly every culture on earth.

[Shadyslug]

this means more muscle mass and such.

Prove to me that a Flooper has more muscle mass than an Elephant...

[Killer Cyborg]

an mdc crerature is more dense thus it would have more "food mass".

Except that MDC creatures often don't weigh any more than their SDC counterparts.

[Kurseteller]

Could it be that MDC creatures have more PPE enriched flesh? So what are the percentages of Feudalistic 1-3 "Hero" hamlets, to enslaved, hidden, and some form of low tech/ Golden Age weapons style hamlets, in your guy's opinion.

[Jesterzzn]

Ah, the squishy bits...

Squishy Bits - n. idiom. 1. The parts of an MDC creature that upon their death become edible by creatures of normal strength. see Furry Beetles, Impervium

But yea, basicly everything KC said...

[Killer Cyborg]

Could it be that MDC creatures have more PPE enriched flesh?

Not a bad notion, but that one probably wouldn't pan out either.
There are probably MDC creatures out there with no more PPE than their SDC counterparts.

So what are the percentages of Feudalistic 1-3 "Hero" hamlets, to enslaved, hidden, and some form of low tech/ Golden Age weapons style hamlets, in your guy's opinion.

Whatever the GM wants it to be.

[Noon]

Well, it's more a question of how the village starts.

I'd say a village starts precisely because a guy or gal has some MDC capacity which is, by planning or chance, enough in the area they decide to settle. They have a family and others who cluster around them and the village gets bigger.

Villages are founded around a power source, rather than a village just coming into existance and then looking for a power source.

From the texts I read, the distribution of MD guns described to be amongst common folk is atleast is enough to 'seed' new villages. Some farmer in the SOT books had a 6D6 MD plasma rifle!

[Noon]

There's a scene in the movie Catch-22 where Nately is talking to an old man in a whorehouse in Italy.
The old man is explaining that Italy survives because it is weak.

Old man in whorehouse: I'm a very moral man, and Italy is a very moral country. That's why we will certainly come out on top again if we succeed in being defeated.
Capt. Nately: You talk like a madman.
Old man in whorehouse: But I live like a sane one. I was a fascist when Mussolini was on top. Now that he has been deposed, I am anti-fascist. When the Germans were here, I was fanatically pro-German. Now I'm fanatically pro-American. You'll find no more loyal partisan in all of Italy than myself.
Capt. Nately: You're a shameful opportunist! What you don't understand is that it's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees.
Old man in whorehouse: You have it backwards. It's better to live on your feet than to die on your knees. I know.
Capt. Nately: How do you know?
Old man in whorehouse: Because I am 107-years-old. How old are you?
Capt. Nately: I'll be 20 in January.
Old man in whorehouse: If you live.

I think, like cockroaches, mankind will survive through pretty much anything.

It's less a question of survival and more a question of how much you want to become like a cockroach?

How much you'd prefer to risk death than become roachlike?

[Noon]

How does a basically defenceless animal like a deer survive in a world with such dangerous animals like bears and wolves?

The same way they'd survive if bears and wolves were MDC creatures.

They run, they hide, there are a lot of them. All those stratigies work just as well as they always did.

Also when prey runs low, the bears and wolves starve and reduce in number.

Rather than more of them pouring in through a rift.

Also the deer can walk shortly after birth and breed alot faster than humans.

[Killer Cyborg]

There's a scene in the movie Catch-22 where Nately is talking to an old man in a whorehouse in Italy.
The old man is explaining that Italy survives because it is weak.

Old man in whorehouse: I'm a very moral man, and Italy is a very moral country. That's why we will certainly come out on top again if we succeed in being defeated.
Capt. Nately: You talk like a madman.
Old man in whorehouse: But I live like a sane one. I was a fascist when Mussolini was on top. Now that he has been deposed, I am anti-fascist. When the Germans were here, I was fanatically pro-German. Now I'm fanatically pro-American. You'll find no more loyal partisan in all of Italy than myself.
Capt. Nately: You're a shameful opportunist! What you don't understand is that it's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees.
Old man in whorehouse: You have it backwards. It's better to live on your feet than to die on your knees. I know.
Capt. Nately: How do you know?
Old man in whorehouse: Because I am 107-years-old. How old are you?
Capt. Nately: I'll be 20 in January.
Old man in whorehouse: If you live.

I think, like cockroaches, mankind will survive through pretty much anything.

It's less a question of survival and more a question of how much you want to become like a cockroach?

How much you'd prefer to risk death than become roachlike?

I'd rather live in Catch-22's America than Italy, if that's what you're asking.
But the man has a point about being just strong enough to get killed.

[Colt47]

Well the main idea I've been getting in Rifts is that if there are lots of MDC creatures that inhabit an area, SDC critters will be few to none besides small critters like squirrels, rabbits, and birds. If the area has relatively low populations of MDC creatures, there will be a lot of SDC ones and the zone is habitable assuming the necessary resources are present. The Rifts Books make it pretty clear what areas are heavily inhabited by Mega Damage monsters and which are not. Obviously you wont see a lot of human settlements near Xiticix territory with the exception of mercenary boom towns, Military outposts, etc. Also, a lot of people seem to be underestimating the ability of humans even without mdc level gear. We can thrive even in hostile areas as long as there is a good reason for us to be there, even if that means the said humans have to duck for cover and stay hidden every once in a while.

On another note, not all MDC beings are threats. Glitterboy pilots patrol around most populated zones protecting who they can when they can, Cyber Knights are always looking for someone to help, and there are plenty of rogue scholars and adventurers running amok who have the odd ball MDC laser or two. When a player plays in Rifts, I find that both the GM and the Players need to remember that the characters are a few among hundreds of adventurers exploring and working in the world.

[Dr. Doom III]

Well the main idea I've been getting in Rifts is that if there are lots of MDC creatures that inhabit an area, SDC critters will be few to none besides small critters like squirrels, rabbits, and birds.

What makes you think that?

[Balabanto]

The answer to this question is "MDC vs. SDC is as common as the GM wants. If you want lots of MDC predators, sure! If you want MDC guns to be rare, sure! Just be sure that as the GM, you enforce it."

I have a simple strategy for this. "What's good for the goose is good for the gander." If the PC's are massively beefy combat monkeys with Naruni Force Fields, JA-12's, and Battle Fury Blades, then their opposition will carefully scout them, and after a few levels, their opponents will be as tough, if not tougher. If the PC's play a bunch of Rogue Scholars and Scientists, you probably aren't going to be facing things that are the world's deadliest mercenaries, because your opposition won't feel the need to hire the best in the world to deal with you.

In general, I assume that what's in the books is a general guideline, especially with a wilderness infested with Brodkill, Neuron Beasts, and other hazards. Is it all there? Absolutely. But I run Rifts as a story driven game because that's the kind of feel that the combat system mandates. If you need to have a particular stretch of wilderness be infested, then it is. If not, then it isn't. Just make sure you warn the players when they're wandering through an area that is inhabited by nasties.

But really, there are a lot of ways for SDC creatures to survive.

1) Live in a place where MDC weapons and armor are illegal except for the proper authorities.

2) Some classes can ONLY be SDC creatures. (Battle Magus among them) They're EXTREMELY powerful, or this restriction wouldn't be there.

3) Hang out with Cyberknights. They will go into battle first. They will protect you. It's the entire reason for their existence. And Cyberknights are TOUGH. They're meant to be.

4) Play smart instead of dumb. You don't have to fight everything. Most things have to sleep sometime, unless you're travelling with a Cyberknight, in which case he's fighting things and you're not.

[The Baron of chaos]

How SDC creatures survives?
Depend.
Animal Prey just do what they always did. Run awya and reproduce as fast as they can.
Animal Predators have the problems of very tough competition and , disliek what many thing, even if SDC preys don't completely satisfy MDC predators(that's why they always look and act hungry), they do taste great, considering how much they like eating humans. But Is not unlikely that they got some advatages in playing at home. Plus who said only bipedals sentines life forms mutate? Or that got their supernatural protectors(nature spirits and faeries tend to fit such roles)
And humans?
Well they rely on many things, mostly their mind.
First off avoid dangerous place. Ley Lines are good if you are a psionic or mage, but for any other are quite dangerous places. And surely you don't want make home right between a radioactive wasteland and a xiticix nest.
Second Do not search for trouble( thats what PC are for )
Third use patchwork armors(easy to do, and offer a minimal MDC)
Fourth when travelling use safe routes and hire a guide(Explorer/Scout main source of incomings)
Fifth Know your surrounding. and neightbours, and keep a good supply of silver bullets and wood stakes, because one never know.
Sixth Bow and arrows and traps will make your home much safer
Seventh in case of emergency hire mercs, seven should be a reasonable number
Eighth: If things go really grim , time to move
Ninth:At nights sleep with your weapon close and If your farm animals start beahiving like crazy, prepare for the worst.
Tenth: Bandits, monsters and demons could be terrible, horrible things to happen. But in case you face a barge wiht slimy thing surrounded by amazangly beautyful women...always keep some spare bullet for you and your beloved ones. Because there are some things worst than death.

[Colt47]

Well the main idea I've been getting in Rifts is that if there are lots of MDC creatures that inhabit an area, SDC critters will be few to none besides small critters like squirrels, rabbits, and birds.

What makes you think that?

Maybe the fact that every location that has demons seems to have next to nothing else mentioned being alive. Similarly, the xiticix destroy all forms of life that do not support them, which is just about everything because they are self sufficient somehow. The only exception I've seen are dinosaurs, because most of them are animals to begin with and generally ignore smaller sdc critters unless provoked or really hungry.

My post really wasn't referring to the occasional mdc monster that roams around the country side as much as specific locations that would be considered hostile territory.

[MikelAmroni]

Well the main idea I've been getting in Rifts is that if there are lots of MDC creatures that inhabit an area, SDC critters will be few to none besides small critters like squirrels, rabbits, and birds.

What makes you think that?

Maybe the fact that every location that has demons seems to have next to nothing else mentioned being alive. Similarly, the xiticix destroy all forms of life that do not support them, which is just about everything because they are self sufficient somehow. The only exception I've seen are dinosaurs, because most of them are animals to begin with and generally ignore smaller sdc critters unless provoked or really hungry.
My post really wasn't referring to the occasional mdc monster that roams around the country side as much as specific locations that would be considered hostile territory.

You're also forgetting the specific mention of deer, bears, wolves, moose, and other large herd and predatory animals. Rifts is a classic example of a story based world, but the simple fact is, logically (yeah, that is so a loaded statement) animalistic predators are only as successful as their prey. Sure its hard to find animals like this in Xiticix country, but its hard to find ANYTHING besides Xiticix in Xiticix country (heh). Does that mean there isn't anything? No, but you can bet its on its way elsewhere, or its small enough the bugs don't care. Any human/d-bee settlements you find will either be living on the edge of such an area (and will intelligently avoid it like the plague), or are in the process of moving because of the constant raids (or being destoyed by those same raids if they refuse to move on). A lot of MDC creatures (not just Dinosaurs) inhabit the Southeast, and there is still a wide variety of "normal" game there. Same is true of the deep south, and the areas mentioned in Federaton of Magic and Psyscape. Even out west and in Lone Star, the other major areas of dinosaurs, there is mention of normal wild herd and predatory animals.

[Colt47]

As long as the MDC critters are not hostile to natural SDC life there can be SDC life.

[Dr. Doom III]

Maybe the fact that every location that has demons seems to have next to nothing else mentioned being alive. Similarly, the xiticix destroy all forms of life that do not support them, which is just about everything because they are self sufficient somehow. The only exception I've seen are dinosaurs, because most of them are animals to begin with and generally ignore smaller sdc critters unless provoked or really hungry.

My post really wasn't referring to the occasional mdc monster that roams around the country side as much as specific locations that would be considered hostile territory.

So if something isn't mentioned it doesn't exist?
I guess you think the books should be a lot bigger then I do because I don't expect an encyclopedia of every living thing in every area described.
Do you think there are, or were, no rats in Tolkeen because they weren’t mentioned as being there in the Tolkeen books too?
There’s a simple idiom.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

[Colt47]

Aren't you being a little bit over critical? Of course there are rats, I said most small SDC critters like squirrels and rabbits would still be around in areas that would be otherwise dangerous for larger creatures in my first post.

[Dr. Doom III]

Aren't you being a little bit over critical? Of course there are rats, I said most small SDC critters like squirrels and rabbits would still be around in areas that would be otherwise dangerous for larger creatures in my first post.

Ok no dogs then.

[Noon]

I was thinking of how I would write a game session for playing villagers facing off against small dino's and perhaps minor supernatural menaces.

With the dino's I was going to go with the assumption they can still feel pain from fire and irritants from hot spices or chemicals like that and this can even temporarily blind them. Whether Kevin would do it that way, who knows, but that's what I'd go in with. Also wooden walls slow down such monsters, if only briefly, for long enough to get shots off.

But beyond that, what would actual play consist of? If your throwing buckets of acid or shooting fire arrows, then it's all roll to hit. What else, if anything, would such a play session consist of? Think of it as if you were writing up an adventure for a magazine. What else do you write up, apart from to hit requirements?

[Killer Cyborg]

I was thinking of how I would write a game session for playing villagers facing off against small dino's and perhaps minor supernatural menaces.

With the dino's I was going to go with the assumption they can still feel pain from fire and irritants from hot spices or chemicals like that and this can even temporarily blind them. Whether Kevin would do it that way, who knows, but that's what I'd go in with. Also wooden walls slow down such monsters, if only briefly, for long enough to get shots off.

I've thought about this one, and I think that a lot of irritants wouldn't actually hurt them (though you could play it that way). Chemical irritants have their effect because they cause minute amounts of damage to the system of the targets, and with MDC creatures this wouldn't be a problem.

Fire wouldn't hurt them, but most creatures have an instinctual fear of fire. In animalistic predators (like dinos) that aren't very bright, they'd avoid fire just from instinct, whether it could hurt them or not.
Smoke would work more directly. Unlike chemical irritants, smoke (I believe) makes you cough and choke simply by keeping you from breathing, which would affect MDC and SDC creatures alike.

But beyond that, what would actual play consist of? If your throwing buckets of acid or shooting fire arrows, then it's all roll to hit. What else, if anything, would such a play session consist of? Think of it as if you were writing up an adventure for a magazine. What else do you write up, apart from to hit requirements?

Dodging.

Really, I think a lot of time would be spent on strategy and preparation for the battle.
Or on hit-and-run tactics, moving from one prepared location to another until the dinos give up.

You should have the area detailed out, with all sorts of possible weapons and defenses around.
A bog to trap the dinos in. A cliff to drop/chase them off of (not that this would kill them, but it could trap the dino in the valley below, where it won't harm the community any more).
Trees and rocks for Ewok-style traps.

[Colt47]

if you look at it this way, natural mdc creatures couldn't survive on rifts earth without drastically destroying the earths ecosystem. There is a reason why nothing on earth was naturally MDC to begin with, it isn't efficient. All these MDC dinosaurs and what not should be going extinct from malnutrition because there are no MDC plants. A single SDC herbivore the size of a standard Brontosaurus has to literally strip ten trees daily to stay in good health. An MDC one, using the ratio that 100 sdc= 1 mdc, would have to strip nearly a whole forest bare just to keep itself alive. "Magic" is the only real answer to why dinosaurs are MDC.

Edit: Don't know what brought this up. Just wanting to point out a basic fact.

[Dr. Doom III]

if you look at it this way, natural mdc creatures couldn't survive on rifts earth without drastically destroying the earths ecosystem. There is a reason why nothing on earth was naturally MDC to begin with, it isn't efficient. All these MDC dinosaurs and what not should be going extinct from malnutrition because there are no MDC plants. A single SDC herbivore the size of a standard Brontosaurus has to literally strip ten trees daily to stay in good health. An MDC one, using the ratio that 100 sdc= 1 mdc, would have to strip nearly a whole forest bare just to keep itself alive. "Magic" is the only real answer to why dinosaurs are MDC.

Edit: Don't know what brought this up. Just wanting to point out a basic fact.

Actually it was because the magic levels were too low.
I don't see them having any more effect on the ecosystem than any other animals.

I don't know where you get that MDC creatures need more food. It's just silly.

[Nekira Sudacne]

It never says anywhere offical that MDC creatures need more food than SDC ones, so using that as an argument for MDC herbavores starving to death kind of fails.

[Colt47]

Someone mentioned a Rifter article that mentioned it.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Someone mentioned a Rifter article that mentioned it.

Yes, but it wasn't an offical article.

[Noon]

I was thinking of how I would write a game session for playing villagers facing off against small dino's and perhaps minor supernatural menaces.

With the dino's I was going to go with the assumption they can still feel pain from fire and irritants from hot spices or chemicals like that and this can even temporarily blind them. Whether Kevin would do it that way, who knows, but that's what I'd go in with. Also wooden walls slow down such monsters, if only briefly, for long enough to get shots off.

I've thought about this one, and I think that a lot of irritants wouldn't actually hurt them (though you could play it that way). Chemical irritants have their effect because they cause minute amounts of damage to the system of the targets, and with MDC creatures this wouldn't be a problem.

Fire wouldn't hurt them, but most creatures have an instinctual fear of fire. In animalistic predators (like dinos) that aren't very bright, they'd avoid fire just from instinct, whether it could hurt them or not.
Smoke would work more directly. Unlike chemical irritants, smoke (I believe) makes you cough and choke simply by keeping you from breathing, which would affect MDC and SDC creatures alike.

In my old rifts main book, the description of firing a burst of bullets at MDC armour says the result is "The worst is a few scratches".

Also I think MDC animals, particularly smaller ones, aren't a complete binary yes it damages/no it doesn't damage 'cause it's MDC. I think they (the smaller ones) can be damaged in the small ways that chemicals do. I'm even inclined to think bullets can open grazes in them.

I'm not saying it's official, but I am saying I don't think it's any wild tangent off the originally imagined ideas of Kevin. It seems an angle to explore which isn't way off the beaten track at all. It appears to fit in okay, to me.

But beyond that, what would actual play consist of? If your throwing buckets of acid or shooting fire arrows, then it's all roll to hit. What else, if anything, would such a play session consist of? Think of it as if you were writing up an adventure for a magazine. What else do you write up, apart from to hit requirements?

Dodging.

Really, I think a lot of time would be spent on strategy and preparation for the battle.

Yeah, probably.

I am more inclined to deal with things as they come play, rather than plan in advance play.

But planning it all in town/village could come will roleplaying conflicts rather than combat conflict. Like there's that hot barmaid eyeing you up but the plans not finished yet. Or you need wood but someone in town thinks they should make a big profit selling it too you (supply and demand and you really need it)

Or on hit-and-run tactics, moving from one prepared location to another until the dinos give up.

You should have the area detailed out, with all sorts of possible weapons and defenses around.
A bog to trap the dinos in. A cliff to drop/chase them off of (not that this would kill them, but it could trap the dino in the valley below, where it won't harm the community any more).
Trees and rocks for Ewok-style traps.

I'd be inclined to hand out XP rewards and perhaps even stuff as they plan. Planning is often kind of...constipated. There's no reward happening during it.

But yeah, those things you say would be the sorts of things they'd be using. A kind of tower defence game, really.