NGR and Mages

[rat_bastard]

Sorry, having a brain fart. For the life of me, I can't find the relevant information in my NGR/triax book. I can see how NGR feels about Dbees, and definitely how it feels about supernats and monsters, but how do they feel about magic users? Does NGR have human magic users? Does it have psiops like Psistalker units or actual psychics?

this is a blind spot in the first triax book, that information should be printed withing 5 months.

[Jefffar]

The NGR is the greatest human technological power in the world, so they actually have a pretty low opinion of the capabilities of mages and psychics. As a result, few NGR citizens witht he potential make the effort to push themselves into developing into magic users or master psychics. The relative commoness of cybernetic implants only further reduces these numbers.

That beign said, there are psychics and magic users within the NGR and there seems to be little official governmental persecution or regulation. It is mentioned that a team of TWs works at Triax's R&D facility and that Mind Bleeders are frequently employed by private industry for industrial espionage. (Note, put a big bold IIRC next to both of those statements.)

The NGR is not like the CS in it's opinion of D-Bees, magic users and psychics. The NGR is more pro-human than anti-d-Bee r anti-magic or anti-psychic.

Yes I know the CS uses psychics, but this is a recent development and all psyhics in their territory are branded with a barcode and/or have an indentity chip implanted. I beleive the NGR does have a registration process for psychics though it doesn't seem to be as intrusive as that of the CS. There is also no mention of organized psychic groups in the NGR - the relative scarcity of Master Psychics probably contributes greatly to this.

[Samored II]

Doesn't the NGR have a Undead Slayer for a field general?

[Jefffar]

I thought it was a Rahu-man.

[Samored II]

I thought it was a Rahu-man.

Sounds right.

[Library Ogre]

They did, but it's been stated that he resigned about the time that the Dbees were pushed out of the NGR.

The early bit of NGR is actually nicely full of information, though it doesn't specifically talk about mages.

[Shadyslug]

And as Godwin would say...even Hitler loved his psychics...

[MikelAmroni]

I could see the technocrats of Triax having a fairly low view of mages, and them using traditional media and marketing methods to push this on the populace. After all, why demonize them if you can make them seem irrelevant. You get less hatred, and more of a "whatever" attitude from them. Only the true nutcases, who you would have to deal with anyway, would be a problem. That said, I can see the NGR having a registration program not unlike the CS psychic Registration (though likely without bar codes - probably RFIDs inplanted just below the skin). I can see the same for psychics and d-bees that are "allowed" to stay.

The PR department for the NGR is no less effective than the CS's, but it would be able to distribute its opinion wider, because of the general literacy rate (bloggers anyone?). Not only are the official channels spouting magic sucks and is archaic, and the prefered tool of the monsters of the Gargoyle Empire, but so are private citizens and privately owned news media (such as there is).

[glitterboy2098]

i could see them studying magic, much like the RSCG of the CS does, but i doubt it plays a big role in the NGR's military. a mage 'advisor corps' perhaps, but not as a major weapon in itself. most likely they'd require mages to register themselves much like psychics, as case of "name, photo ID, registry number, abilities/spells as of last update" kind of thing. sorta like how the ATF keeps tabs on people who own military grade hardware.

[Seneca]

i could see them studying magic, much like the RSCG of the CS does, but i doubt it plays a big role in the NGR's military. a mage 'advisor corps' perhaps, but not as a major weapon in itself. most likely they'd require mages to register themselves much like psychics, as case of "name, photo ID, registry number, abilities/spells as of last update" kind of thing. sorta like how the ATF keeps tabs on people who own military grade hardware.

Honestly I see them not having ANY mages in the government or Triax. If they did the CS would have long ago cut relations with them as soon as their multitude of spies discovered a NGR pro-magic anything. They may not be as rabidly anti-magic like the CS, but they no doubt discourage human practitioners from sticking around to long. They probably turn D-bee mages away at the border if they make their powers known, and kill any that resist as Gargoyle spies.

No doubt they use mages just as the CS does in America. Under the radar and off the books, but in no way official. Remember the CS is very paranoid about the NGR and anything which cast a doubt on their "purity" would be a major stumbling block in their relations.

More than likely any human that showed a desire to practiced magic would be "encouraged" to re-locate or treated as a "subversive" like Victor Lazlo and his group. Just like the Free Quebecois do to psychics. "Here is a few thousand credits and a hover rover. Bye Mr. Wizard." New Tarnow or Freiburg, in the Black Forest, would welcome them as productive members of the community. So what reason is their to stay where they are not wanted?

[glitterboy2098]

is this the same CS that has diplomatic ties to Columbia, a nation that uses advanced magic and accepts dwarves as equal citizens? is this the same CS that has let the NGR beleive that Erin Tarn is a coalition folk hero?

i think the CS is willing to let alot of things slide if they think it is in their best long term interest.

[gaby]

I think ther could be a NGR,s Counterpart to the CS,s Vanguards,with the job of doing any thing to take down the Gargoyle and Brodkil empires.
That how I set it up in my NGR,s Games.

[Jefffar]

I don't think there is a magic division (like the CS had back in the day) in the NGR, but also, I don't think the NGR has any specific anti-spellcaster policies either. Magic users can be private citizens and use their abilities for the good of the republic if they choose to, but there is no organized policy about it.

[dark brandon]

All will be answered in Triax 2. Patience...

[MikelAmroni]

All will be answered in Triax 2. Patience...

We know, but its fun to speculate! heh.

[dark brandon]

All will be answered in Triax 2. Patience...

We know, but its fun to speculate! heh.

I know who is guessing right and wrong...MUAHAHAHAHA

[Seneca]

I don't think there is a magic division (like the CS had back in the day) in the NGR, but also, I don't think the NGR has any specific anti-spellcaster policies either. Magic users can be private citizens and use their abilities for the good of the republic if they choose to, but there is no organized policy about it.

Erin Tarn wrote about the treatment of mages, rouge scholars and pro-D-bee humans in WB:5 pg 12.

So Brandon will you just expand on that?

Can we see abit more of Lazlo's Unmutuals of Free Thought? I could see secret subversive societies being a major problem in the more open NGR than the CS.

[dark brandon]

I don't think there is a magic division (like the CS had back in the day) in the NGR, but also, I don't think the NGR has any specific anti-spellcaster policies either. Magic users can be private citizens and use their abilities for the good of the republic if they choose to, but there is no organized policy about it.

Erin Tarn wrote about the treatment of mages, rouge scholars and pro-D-bee humans in WB:5 pg 12.

So Brandon will you just expand on that?

Can we see abit more of Lazlo's Unmutuals of Free Thought? I could see secret subversive societies being a major problem in the more open NGR than the CS.

I'm not an author...I just know the guy who wrote it.

[Nxla666]

Pure speculation on my part, but isnt part of the CS hesitance about the NGR the fact the the Germans have a (to the CS) disturbing tendency to not shoot every mage and d-bee that they see.

The NGR will even allow non-hostile human like d-bees to "squat" within the NGRs borders but are not offered any kind of official assistance and at the first sign of trouble from them are booted.

I kind of see this as the same way a mage would be treated.

[Library Ogre]

Sorry, having a brain fart. For the life of me, I can't find the relevant information in my NGR/triax book. I can see how NGR feels about Dbees, and definitely how it feels about supernats and monsters, but how do they feel about magic users? Does NGR have human magic users? Does it have psiops like Psistalker units or actual psychics?

this is a blind spot in the first triax book, that information should be printed withing 5 months.

well if we storm the gates of normandy it might come sooner....... are you with me

My father stormed the beach at Normandy.

[Nekira Sudacne]

The NGR is the greatest human technological power in the world, so they actually have a pretty low opinion of the capabilities of mages and psychics.

A does not follow B. NGR has a nutral stance on magic and psionics and both can practice their crafts freely.

NGR isn't Pro magic or Anti magic. they're "We don't care"

[Jefffar]

The NGR is the greatest human technological power in the world, so they actually have a pretty low opinion of the capabilities of mages and psychics.

A does not follow B. NGR has a nutral stance on magic and psionics and both can practice their crafts freely.

NGR isn't Pro magic or Anti magic. they're "We don't care"

Actually I meant it more like a "Why bother with magic when technology does everything we want and more?" Basically to them Magic is an inferior force and that's why there are so few who develop their potential within the NGR.

[The Galactus Kid]

I don't think there is a magic division (like the CS had back in the day) in the NGR, but also, I don't think the NGR has any specific anti-spellcaster policies either. Magic users can be private citizens and use their abilities for the good of the republic if they choose to, but there is no organized policy about it.

Erin Tarn wrote about the treatment of mages, rouge scholars and pro-D-bee humans in WB:5 pg 12.

So Brandon will you just expand on that?

Can we see abit more of Lazlo's Unmutuals of Free Thought? I could see secret subversive societies being a major problem in the more open NGR than the CS.

I'm not an author...I just know the guy who wrote it.

Guys.

There are many things which have been answered that Taylor and I have found to be big problems with WB 5 ommitting. Fans have been wanting to see these things for years, so they were the first things really discussed during the brainstorming of the book and the original outline process.

[Mouser13]

The NGR is the greatest human technological power in the world, so they actually have a pretty low opinion of the capabilities of mages and psychics.

A does not follow B. NGR has a nutral stance on magic and psionics and both can practice their crafts freely.

NGR isn't Pro magic or Anti magic. they're "We don't care"

Actually I meant it more like a "Why bother with magic when technology does everything we want and more?" Basically to them Magic is an inferior force and that's why there are so few who develop their potential within the NGR.

Would that really hold true on an individual level though? When a person learns that he/she has some magical talent?

Alex

But if it isn't encouraged people will not develop it. They will not know about or learn to be able to use their talent.

Far has I know magic is complete learned for humans their is no spontaus like their is for latent pshyics. Or just pshysic power in general.

[glitterboy2098]

Far has I know magic is complete learned for humans their is no spontaus like their is for latent pshyics. Or just pshysic power in general.

Mystics have spontanious magical ability. and we know from Chaos Earth that a person with high magical potential will still be able ot cast spells and such without training, just in an erratic and uncontrolled fashion.

proper physical and mental training is just a way to learn to manage the magical power you naturally have access to. in the case of LLW's and other such mages, it also helps to increase your potential.

[Jefffar]

The NGR is the greatest human technological power in the world, so they actually have a pretty low opinion of the capabilities of mages and psychics.

A does not follow B. NGR has a nutral stance on magic and psionics and both can practice their crafts freely.

NGR isn't Pro magic or Anti magic. they're "We don't care"

Actually I meant it more like a "Why bother with magic when technology does everything we want and more?" Basically to them Magic is an inferior force and that's why there are so few who develop their potential within the NGR.

Would that really hold true on an individual level though? When a person learns that he/she has some magical talent?

Alex

Well part of using magic is beleif. Most people in the NGR beleive that technology is superior to magic (If it wasn't, why didn't the magic using gargoyles ovverune the NGR 30 years ago? If it wasn't, why have the magic using gargoyles turned to technology to improve their combat forces?). Since the average person doesn't beleive magic is worht his time, he's not going to exercise his potential.

There will be some exceptions to this (there are TWs working with Triax's R&D division I beleive) but for the overall popultion, magic just isn't all that interesting or effective so it just isn't pursued.

Also, the large portion of people who receive cyberneics or bionics during their service in the NGR military, or to replace lost limbs from their service in the NGR military probably cuts into the pool of potential spell casters somewhat.

[Balabanto]

That may be, but these are Germans. They don't waste ANYTHING. It's counterintuitive and inefficient to turn mages into cyborgs.

[Jefffar]

Yes, but these people will end up cyborgs before they even realize they may be mages.

[glitterboy2098]

maybe, maybe not. BTS implies magical and psionic potential shows up early in life, and Chaos earth supports this. so unless the NGR is extensively converting kids into borgs, i suspect many would discover they have magical potential before they could become borgs.

that said, just because they have the ability doesn't mean they'll choose to learn how to use it. and BTS does make a point of talking about how magical ability fades with age. up to the time they become a young adult, any kid showing magical potential can train to be a mage. after that, it's alot harder.

[Jefffar]

But again, those who have the potntial as kids probably wouldn't care. The cool people in the NGR pilot robots and power armour or are 'borgs. Magic is inconsequential.

It's kinda like how in Canada the folks with athletic potential almost universally become hockey players. Hockey is where it's at in most people's persepective, the other sports are nowhere near as culturally important.

As a result there is no strong community of mages in the NGR, and those mages that are there are probably ridiculed for their adherance to "D-Bee Religions" and "Archaic Beleifs"

[Balabanto]

Yeah. In my game, the magic divisions exist and the NGR will forcibly draft D-Bees into units to protect it's borders. Granted, it's just kind of like throwing them into the Gargoyle Meat Grinder, and they're not very nice about it, but on the rare occasion that someone actually BECOMES an officer, they're an officer and that's it. Pay respect or else. Plus, it allows them to save their crack technological units for after the Gargoyles have been softened up.

[Nxla666]

Yeah. In my game, the magic divisions exist and the NGR will forcibly draft D-Bees into units to protect it's borders. Granted, it's just kind of like throwing them into the Gargoyle Meat Grinder, and they're not very nice about it, but on the rare occasion that someone actually BECOMES an officer, they're an officer and that's it. Pay respect or else. Plus, it allows them to save their crack technological units for after the Gargoyles have been softened up.

Why would you promote a conscript to a position to sabotage your military?

[Balabanto]

Yeah. In my game, the magic divisions exist and the NGR will forcibly draft D-Bees into units to protect it's borders. Granted, it's just kind of like throwing them into the Gargoyle Meat Grinder, and they're not very nice about it, but on the rare occasion that someone actually BECOMES an officer, they're an officer and that's it. Pay respect or else. Plus, it allows them to save their crack technological units for after the Gargoyles have been softened up.

Why would you promote a conscript to a position to sabotage your military?

It's called Battlefield promotions. "Bob is dead! You have performed exceptionally. You now have Bob's rank! Lead these people or we'll shoot you!"

[Vrykolas2k]

this is a blind spot in the first triax book, that information should be printed withing 5 months.

5 Months from when?

2020

[Jefffar]

Actually I'm thinking the realities of megadamage combat as well as a large number of volunteers. IIRC approx 25% of the NGR military has significant levels of bionics.

[Talavar]

Yeah with MD combat, if you're a squishie human inside a MD suit, and manage to survive after your suit is breached and you take say 1 stray MD pt of damage, you're going to be looking at bionics. Still, I'm not sure I'd have the psych profile necessary to survive bionics. I mean in popular culture today we gloss over bionics, Steve Austin cool! Or I can be like the Bionic Woman! But Rifts style bionics, especially full conversion would be just scary for me. Touch at less than 50% rating, if you've gone full borg its kinda likely your ..um...sex organs are gone. You'd be more Robocop than Steve Austin, with maybe your original tongue and eyes.

Though there are full-conversion options for those who want to retain human looks & functionality - the cyber-humanoid from the Bionics Sourcebook can pass for human if you can't check its weight (or have metal detectors/other tech. scanners) for instance. And I think there's something similar in Rifts Japan.

[Jesterzzn]

I'm jumping on late to this thread, so I'll just post as if I've not read any of the other responses (which I haven't ).

I believe the NGR takes a similar stance to magic as they do psionics and for the most part d-bees. That is, "We don't really like you, but as long as you are not causing trouble we'll agree to disagree."

When Kevin writes about the "Great Campaign" taken on by the NGR about a hundred years before the current time, he throws magic users into the same group as the other supernatural beings that were slaughtered. So, while sentiments may have laxed over the next hundred years, its pretty clear how they were originaly viewed by the population and more importantly by the military. At the same time all the Magic and Psychic classes are listed as existing within the NGR citizenry.

I remember there being a blurb in the NGR book about Undead Slayers being fairly commen within the areas covered in the book. The blurb also mentioned that 90% of those Slayers are not associated with the NGR. I always wondered if that was supposed to imply that the other 10% are in fact associated with the NGR, but as is typical its pretty unclear.

There are no Psi-Stalkers in the NGR military, but I seem to recall that some of the more civilized psi-stalkers will team up with NGR patrol groups to aid in the search for supernatural monsters.

The Rifts main book claims that 25% of all humans has some kind of psionic ability. The NGR appears to only require D-bees to register. So, unless they consider 1/4 of humans to be d-bess (which even the CS does not do), they must not require psychics to register. And I would guess that means that about 25% of their military is at least a minor psychic? Its unclear, but as written I could see that being the case.

[Talavar]

I imagine at full conversion, even if going the human-looking route, your gear is "Mr. OrksSTUDPACKAGE" but its not the real deal anymore.

I think you'd be right about that - but it'd be better than nothing

[Balabanto]

Cybershvantz!

Mit Der Optional Peniscam!