Sorry, gonna stir things up. Nightban + N&S?

[Misfit KotLD]

For El Magico's first NB game, I played a psychic with Pao Pat Mei who was the result of a government experiment. I paid the skill upgrade cost given in HU and away we went.

[AlanGunhouse]

First of all, use the Rifts: China assumption and say that all Chi powers are ISP based, meaning Nightbane can not have them since they never have an ISP score. This also means characters with psychic powers can not use Chi, because it is a different use of the same ability and learning both is like trying to hop and to swim at the same time.

That being said, the non-chi abilities could be learned...but not by young Nightbane (or most other paranormals) because they have an instinctive combat ability. When you are trying to learn something that is different from you instinctive ability, you have a LOT of trouble learning it. Give a Nightbane 200 years or so to overcome their instincts, then yes, but they wouls totally lose their instinctive combat abilities in the process.

A Martial Artist turned into a Vampire or a Doppleganger of a Martial Artist would keep their combat abilities, but the Vampire would lose all Chi powers (replaced by psionics) while the Dopplegangar would only keep them if they are based off Negative Chi.

In case you were wondering, I ran a combined campaign of BTS/N&SS/Nightbane pre dark day once upon a time.

[Misfit KotLD]

I have to say, I don't like Rifts Japan and Rifts China in their treatment of Chi. I prefer to keep Chi separate from ISP and PPE.

[AlanGunhouse]

To clarify, I am not saying ISP IS Chi (though I have no objection to that) I am saying that ISP and Chi are both different ways to focus PPE that are distinct from the ability to use raw PPE that is magic, and that each require such focus that no person is able to develop both (this is a mechanism to prevent super Munchkins). A Nightbane should not be able to use Chi just the same as they can not use ISP because it goes against their nature.

[Misfit KotLD]

You may not say so, but the book you refer to does say so.

[AlanGunhouse]

True, Rifts China does use ISP in place of Chi. I seem to recall having an extended conversation in a different thread about the question (a Rifts thread). Until they do specific rules to Martial Arts in Nightbane and/or HU, my suggestions seem as good as any.

[Misfit KotLD]

I can agree with your intent (prevention of munchkinism), and I would love to see someone finally fix the Chi confusion generated by three sets of rules for Chi.

[Scrud]

~Its always possible to be a martial artist in facade and a savage monster in morphus
~Without the use Chi in both forms of course, but not all martial arts are chi based

~Plus Rifter 7 has rules for merging Nightbane with Ninja & Superspies martial arts

[Tinker Dragoon]

If you'd combine Nightbane with Ninja's & Superspies...how would you go about granting characters the option for special martial art forms (however excluding the "exclusive" forms) and still maintain game balance?

Martial Art Forms -- particularly those in Mystic China -- can be another equalizer in Nightbane, giving otherwise normal human characters an edge against the supernatural. Styles like Gui Long and Bak Mei can be devastating to vampires and demons, while others like Fu Chiao Pai and Ninjutsu greatly improve a character's mobility and survivability.

I personally have never seen any compelling reason for the Nightbane themselves to have access to Martial Art Forms, at least not in their Morphus state, but I can also agree that Hand to Hand: Martial Arts is a rather bland choice (and not altogether appropriate for Nightbane with non-humanoid Morphus traits). I've often toyed with the concept of a unique Nightbane Morphus Style of martial arts that would use N&S/MC rules, but have never come up with a satisfactory end-product. Styles unique to other races (Milleks and Flint People for example) might also be reasonable.

[Specter]

Doesn't the Nightbane main book restrict a bane from having anything besides "Martlal Arts" in the morpheus form?

[Misfit KotLD]

I want to say to upgrade to a N&SS form, it's four skill slots above what is needed to take HtH Martial Arts. So if the OCC gets HtH MA to start, it's four skills to take a specific martial art. If it starts with HtH Basic, it's two more to reach MA then four more to reach form level. And I find it's not unbalancing at all. It adds flavor for me.

[Scrud]

I want to say to upgrade to a N&SS form, it's four skill slots above what is needed to take HtH Martial Arts. So if the OCC gets HtH MA to start, it's four skills to take a specific martial art. If it starts with HtH Basic, it's two more to reach MA then four more to reach form level. And I find it's not unbalancing at all. It adds flavor for me.

~Six skills after martial arts for an exclusive HtH

[Misfit KotLD]

I want to say to upgrade to a N&SS form, it's four skill slots above what is needed to take HtH Martial Arts. So if the OCC gets HtH MA to start, it's four skills to take a specific martial art. If it starts with HtH Basic, it's two more to reach MA then four more to reach form level. And I find it's not unbalancing at all. It adds flavor for me.

~Six skills after martial arts for an exclusive HtH

And there you have it.

[AlanGunhouse]

In that case, I really reccomend looking up the Mystic China book, some of the characters classes in that are much closer to what you are looking for.

[Misfit KotLD]

Yeah, Mystic China is a must grab.

[Tinker Dragoon]

Is this possible without causing too much game imbalance? If so, how to do this?

If you want balance, then you want to ignore the HU conversions from N&S entirely. In a truly balanced game, Martial Art forms would only be allowed to specialized Martial Artist classes and to ordinary human characters without (or with highly limited access to) any other special gimmicks (including extensive cybernetics, magic, psionics, supernatural origins, items of power, and other extraordinary abilities). Anyone with any kind of special powers would be limited to the standard Hand to Hand combat skills and to "Quickie Forms," like the Agent HtH skills from N&S and the HtH skills of Rifts Japan and Rifts China 2.

For a slightly more high-powered, but not over-the-top campaign, it may be acceptable for characters to purchase martial art forms. For this I recommend Kuseru Satsujin's modifications to the Rifter #3 rules:

Well, let's get down to the nuts and bolts. "What's this gonna cost me?"
1. The character has to have or be able to learn HTH Martial Arts. [Okay, we can keep this, not a problem. However a little clarification is in order. Characters with, or with access to the following Hand to Hand Skills are not eligible for this option; Any Rifter style, Assassin, Commando (when Martial Arts is unavailable), Cyber Knight Zen Combat (Hell no I ain't giving CKs access to any martial art styles, they're already munchy enough), Dragon Combat, Evasive Combat, Gladiator, Talitsu, Tarlock Martial Arts, and Teng-Jutsu (when Martial Arts is unavailable). Characters with, or with access to any of the Rifts Japan or Rifts China Hand to Hand skills (with the exceptions of Tao Jen Qiang and the aforementioned Teng-Jutsu (if they've got it) AND Judo, which doesn't have a N&S counterpart exactly (unless you want to allow the Agent style corresponding to Judo)) can upgrade to the N&S/MC version with a reduced skill cost (see below).
2. The character must be able to learn Boxing. [Stays]
3. The character must spend the required Other skills to learn Hand to Hand Martial Arts, if they don't already have it [Stays]
4. The character must spend 4 Other skills for a non-Exclusive style or 6 Other skills for an Exclusive style (or exchange two secondary skills per Other skill needed). [This is where we make the biggest change. Technically, I should go through each OCC and determine what the exact breakdown of OCC/Other/Secondary skills (initial selections only) is for each class and then generate an overall average, or some weird stuff like limiting styles (or Exclusive styles) to Men of Arms OCCs. I'm not going to do that though. In order to keep it simple, the character loses ALL OCC Weapon Proficiencies, and Half their Other skills, unless the Half the Other skills is less than 4, in which case they must spend 4 Other Skills (or substitute 2 Secondary skills per Other skill needed) for a Non-Exclusive style. For an Exclusive style, they lose All OCC Weapon Proficiencies & Physical Skills as well as All their Other skills, unless they have 6 or less Other skills, in which case they must spend 6 Other skills (or substitute 2 Secondary skills per Other skill needed). For Rifts Japan and Rifts China characters with one of the special Hand to Hand skills, they lose the Hand to Hand skill, any Martial Art Powers known (including the Mystic Martial Art Powers in Rifts China), any Psionic abilities known (including Trained to Sense & Manipulate Chi, Powers of Meditation, Chi Healing (Wai Chia Wu Shih), Chi Gung Powers & Master of Internal Energy (Chi-Gung Seng Ren), and Demon Queller Body Hardening), & all OCC Weapon Proficiencies (especially the one gained from any trained to Sense & Manipulate Chi power) to upgrade to the appropriate martial art style (i.e. HTH Aikido to Aikido, etc). For Rifts Japan and Rifts China characters wishing to learn a different martial art style, they lose all the aforementioned stuff AND have to spend 4 Other skills (for a Non-Exclusive style) or 6 Other skills (for an Exclusive style) (both including the two Secondary skills for one Other skill option). For the Soothsayer, Spirit Host and Blind Mystic PCCs from Rifts China 2, they use the standard selections for other characters instead of the special ones for RC2 characters with martial art skills.
5. Regardless of skills available, only the RJ and RC characters with martial art skills can learn more than one Martial Art Style (by sacrificing ALL their Other skills in addition to the loss of the various special powers, skills and abilities). Standard Exclusive limitations apply.
6. The following Revised Ninjas & Superspies and Mystic China martial arts are not Exclusive: Aikido, An Yin, Ba Gua, Bak Mei, Bok Pai, Ch'a Ch'uan, Chao Ta, Chi Hsuan Men, Chin-Na, Choy-Li-Fut, Gui Long, Han Yu, Hsing-I, Lee Kwan Choo, Li Chia, Liang Hsiung, Mien Chuan, Moo Gi Gong, Pao Pat Mei, Sankukai Karate, Shan Tung, Shih Ba Ban Wu Yi, Snake Style, Tai Chi Chuan, Taido, Tang Su, Te, Tong Lun, Triad Assassin, Yu Sool, and Zanji Shinjinken Ryu
The following martial art styles are considered Exclusive (meaning they must be the first style learned by the character): Drunken Style, Fong Ngan, Fu Chiao Pai, Hsien Hsia*, Hwarang Do, Isshin Ryu, Jujutsu, Kuo-Ch'uan, Kyokushinkai, Monkey Style, Ninjutsu, Pao Chih, Shao Lin, Sumo, Tae Kwon Do, Thai Kick Boxing, Tien Hsueh, Wu Shu Tsung**, Wui Wing Chun, and Xing Chiao.
*Note: Hsien Hsia, if taken, can be the only martial art learned by that character.
**Wu Shu Tsung is listed in its description as being a requirement for Chinese espionage agents. This note should either be removed, or a reasonable solution should be found which would make the style available for espionage agent O.C.C.s ( I recommend additional loss of skill programs).

(additional Nightbane-specific conversions can be found at http://www.geocities.com/kuseru/KKP_NB.htm)

[Misfit KotLD]

Ah, yes, the KKP.

[Misfit KotLD]

I liked what we did with Onca too. Pao Pat Mei combined with a government experiment Psi-Stalker made a vicious fighter. And she had the Jedi Mind Trick.

I will say though, a Bane with a N&SS form does have a bit of stealth going, he can kick some booty without becoming a giant terror fest first.

[drewkitty ~..~]

HU, BTS, NS, N&S, and MC can be different parts of the same world.
I once played under a GM that had Mixed all the SDC worlds into one. It was a blast to play.

[AlanGunhouse]

I ran a game much like that, except without the super heroes.

[drewkitty ~..~]

chi of the SN is double that of mortals.

NS, would have their chi equal their facade PE doubled. This would be for both the facade and their morphus sides. (like the PPE stat doesn't change between forms)
Any modifiers to chi would also be doubled.
Weather or not NS could use chi powers while morphed would be up to the GM.

everything here is optional for there is no official rules governing this. the SN getting double PE in chi is found in R3, in the 'conversion' of MA power to Rifts article.

[The Baron of chaos]

Just wnated to add some note on this re-curring thread(is kinda like a curse of Ninja and Superspies being the most converted book of palladium..everyone wanna piece of it )
As was pointed out Nightbane revert to their instinctive Martial arts(albeint they retain boxing, wrestling, Acrobatics and the newcomer kick boxing, now an official part of Megaverse skills, as well as any physical skills they could have) BUT this does not mean tha tnothing is left of the advanced martial art form they od knew in facade. Simply it transalte into morphus trait and talents. It can't be simpler than this. And make sense considering the psychiatic-symbolic freudian nature of the nightbane's powers.
Example a Weapon Kata would translate into the bane having such weapons in place of hands or as retractalbe stuff. Body hardening could transalte in lot of different morphus. An animal themed style coudl translate into assuming such animal form(a monkey style would lead to a nightbane to have monkey traits...hey primates are missing from animla tables I just noticed now!), Chi would probably translate well into energy related talents as well. And art of invisibility, well there are lot of talents who fit better the stealthy style.
My only problem with Nightbane and martial arts is the special moves, like roundhouse kick, Reverse Turning Kick(the most cool one), and things like circular parry. Do they are forgot or they are remembered? I know I know I'm saying this only because i drool at the idea of SN strenght powered roundhouse kick