Repairing armor with a skill check

[DocS]

There is a skill, Weapons engineer, The skill explicitly states that characters with this skill can repair repair body armor. It's in the main book.

over 15 years, and as far as I know, no Rifts book has ever explained *how* this skill is to be used. No mention of requirements on the order of materials, time, or labor are given. There is not even any discussion of when and where a skill roll would be appropriate. That the skill is the one that 'allows one to reapair armor' is almost hidden in the text, as almost an ancilary to the skill description (akin to the fact that basic radio also teaches Morse Code).

To start things off, how many of you have actually used this skill in your game, and how did you use it?

[Library Ogre]

You've got to have tools and a supply of MDC materials... the tools should include a torch.

[rat_bastard]

divide the the market cost of the armor by the sum of its mdc, this is what is costs to pay someone to fix your armor.

quarter that and that is what it costs to do it yourself with materials.

[Braden Campbell]

I run Phase World exclusively now, so as long you have the right skill and a can of spray metal, you're good to go.

For Rifts, I would say that a laser torch and plate of MDC replacement material is all that's needed, so long as the armor hasn't been breeched (taken below 35 MDC). If ti has, then you'll have to repair the electronic components as well, which would be a roll on Electrical Engineer, or perhaps Robot Electronics.

[Mouser13]

Rifts Source book one has cost to repair. Though personally Have had before people use salavage skill to get M.D.C. destoried armor. To be used to fix their armor.

[DocS]

The first thing that I note is that there seems to be a lot of theory, but very little actual use of the skill in games that are run. It seem almost fair to say that in the majority of games, this skill isn't used, and the only methods of armor repair are the 'facilities' mentioned in SB1 and that armor repair spell in one of the books.

Which is what I've noted from my experience. I ran the game for five years, didn't see that one sentence, none of my players saw it, no one asked, and armor repairs got to be an amazing pain to the point where it was utterly distracting to the game. I had this experience again in a recent game. I wasn't the GM, but again, none of us had picked out the one sentence in the book, and armor repairs became a problem (we literally spent more time on the 'Quest to find a place to repair the armor' than the actual adventure the GM had planned).

Given the importance of armor in Rifts, it seems that a very definite repair mechanic is required. Something literally as defined as the healing spells are.

I like the tools needed to be portable, since it seems suitable for the game for operators to be able to do this 'on the go'. This seems to be a consensus, laser torch + standard toolkit+MDC materials=armor repair kit.

How much MD worth of materials? relatively easy to quantify from scavanging the undamaged bits (arms/legs) of folks around. But an operator would need to have some idea of how much MD of materials he has. Doesn't it say somewhere that rifles have 10MDC and pictols have 5? If not, those still are prefectly useful values for the purposes of repairs. E-clips are worth 1.

More seems required though, a simple "have tools, make roll, all is good' seems a bit too easy. Too... "armor grows back spontaneously". Nothing repaired is truly 'as good as new'. Does it seem fair that the armor repair % is not only the chance of a successful repair, but is also the amount of damage that can be repaired.

Weapons engineer of 50%

He goes to repair armor with 10 MD done to it....

If he fails the skill roll, he uses up the materials, but can try again (so long as he has materials to try it with).. A successful skill roll... and he repairs 5 MD (50% of 10) of damage.(the remaining damage is unfixable by this operator at this time). The armor is repaired, but not good as new, but better, the armor will still get chewed over time and will come to a point where it is held together with spit and duct tape and is almost no good.

However, Weapons engineer of 90%, can repair 9 MD with a successful skill roll, armors in his hands last much much longer. He's out in the field, and consistently turning MDC 'rags' into things almost as good as new, which is what someone with a skill of 90% should be able to do. Maybe for generosity, round uneven points up (a skill of 44% can repair 5 of 10 MD).

Of course, if a full 'facility' is available, there repairs can happen fully and completely. But out in the field, the above mechanic is definitely better than nothing, but not perfect, still requiring a lot of scrounging and work.

And then, of course modifiers. Not all MDC materials are created equal. Scrounging human armor bits into human armor should be done at no penalty.

Parts from armors (but not *body* armor, such as Robot or power armor materials into body armor) :-5% due to the extensive 'whittling' required to get the shapes right.

Parts from totally non-analogous items (but similar tech level, such as cutting up CS rifles to repair CS armor) :-10%

'Alien, but similar technology" (kittani armor bits to repair CS armor, both use metal/ceramics), -10%

Have torch, but no toolkit -20% (you can do some piecemeal fitting, but are limited in how well you can whittle the bits)

Toolkit, but no torch -25% (you're doing little more than 'scotch taping' bits onto holes in the armor).

Tookit, but jury-rigged a laser torch by modifying a laser pistol, etc... -5 (the jury rigged torch aint perfect, but it's better 'n nothin! Jury rigging a torch from a pistol, of course, requires its own weapons engineer check and permanently turns the pistol into a second-rate laser torch).

Utterly alien/non-similar materials (xiticix chitin to repair CS armor), -40%

Penalites add, so yes, an operator can repair with his bare hands, but does so at a -45% (20+25, which means a first level guy has no chance, but at high levels of skill, he knows just how to jam bits into holes like a jigsaw puzzle to get some effect).

Is a complex armor repair mechanic worth it? I think so, if that Operator wants to feel useful. This would have the operators keeping track of the spare parts and MD values of what they have (cuz the armor bits are easier to work with than the scavanged pistols) and then 'sizing up' armor damage, making judgement calls on how to spend their salvage on repairs. Even with the ability to repeat failed rolls (using up materials of course, but no other cost) gives a sense of 'experimentation' if the materials are wierd (he's going to have to go through 20 or 30 MD of xiticix armor to figure out how to do 4 or 5 MD of repair with it).

Sounds to me like enjoyment for your fix-it guy. Almost like cleric healing, but much more fun, and post-apocalyptic flavoring. I'm imagining a fight with robots and the operator yelling "Keep track of where all the bits fall! I plan to be welding them to your butts later!"

[Kelorin]

Have you considering adapting the modifier tables from the Heroes Unlimited: Hardware characters? I think they have penalties for inadequate materials, rush jobs, insufficient rest, alien technology, etc.

[tundro]

I would think it would be difficult to assign a fixed number (penalties, time and whatnot)...the GM should assign these numbers per the situation. Sometimes the situation dictates a stiffer penalty or more time, another situation may have you in the perfect time and spot to affect the repairs. For me personally, if the character rolled exceptionally well with the percentile dice, the time or difficulty would be lessened significantly do to the great role. Just having a great idea and HOW to do the repairs could help (good roleplaying). To have the whole campaign deviate from the course just to spend a lot of time trying to find a way to repair armor doesn't help advance the game at all. I guess I'm saying this would be one of those times I wouldn't get to bogged down in the details, and let the GM decide what is best for the campaign. I DO agree that at LEAST basic tools would be required...the player and GM should hash out between themselves what constitutes basic tools, but ultimately it will be for the GM to decide (hope you have a nice one). My two cents.

[Colt47]

And people wonder why I always demand someone play either a Operator or Mystic Kuznya in games I join. As I've learned from many game systems, only an idiot runs out to the middle of no where with no means of recovering themselves after fights. Even those long range Coalition patrols have at least a APC with a mechanic within range to do some minor effective repairs to Power armor and those horrendously expensive skelebots. What happens if your armor breaks down in the middle of the Yucatan?!

[DocS]

Have you considering adapting the modifier tables from the Heroes Unlimited: Hardware characters? I think they have penalties for inadequate materials, rush jobs, insufficient rest, alien technology, etc.

The first things that jump out are the base percentages (92%, etc). Very high, which seems reasonable. Kinda makes me sad now, Palladium had something approaching a usable mechanic for this in Heroes, but iunstead went to Rifts and decided to have no mechanic at all.

I would think it would be difficult to assign a fixed number (penalties, time and whatnot)...the GM should assign these numbers per the situation.

A general table of modifiers is needed just to give a ballpark figure of what is hard and what isn't. GM's can change the numbers at will, but a table of penalties for commonly seen situations is a marvelously useful tool.

As I've learned from many game systems, only an idiot runs out to the middle of no where with no means of recovering themselves after fights.

And yet in 15 years of Rifts, the writers have done almost nothing about this. Kinda shows how little actual playtesting is done in the halls of Palladium. They make an entire OCC about the concept of 'repairing things', and give no way for the repairs to work. Imagine if, instead of a magic system, they just said "Ley line walker, Magic skill +25%" and then the magic skill simply said "Magic 30+5% per level, this skill allows the character to cast spells" and left it at that.That's exactly what they did to the poor Operator.

[rat_bastard]

And yet in 15 years of Rifts, the writers have done almost nothing about this. Kinda shows how little actual playtesting is done in the halls of Palladium. They make an entire OCC about the concept of 'repairing things', and give no way for the repairs to work. Imagine if, instead of a magic system, they just said "Ley line walker, Magic skill +25%" and then the magic skill simply said "Magic 30+5% per level, this skill allows the character to cast spells" and left it at that.That's exactly what they did to the poor Operator.

Palladium has never tried to make an all inclusive rules system, its not their style thats why they do not try to make rules for every little situation they paint in broad strokes and focus on the setting rather than the mechanics.

allot of people have trouble with that concept, they will never sit down and define it for you because that is not the way their game system works because that could limit in some small way what your characters can do.

[DocS]

Palladium has never tried to make an all inclusive rules system, its not their style thats why they do not try to make rules for every little situation they paint in broad strokes and focus on the setting rather than the mechanics.

'every little situation' implies that a character sitting somewhere with damaged armor and saying 'I'd like to repair this' is somehow a rare occurrence in Rifts.

It's one thing to 'paint broad strokes', it's a complete other to make a game where characters live or die by their MDC armor.... mention that repairing the armor is 'Possible', but then give literally no mechanic at all as to how this repair works. But however it works, it somehow involves a 25%+ 5% per level, which just confuses the heck out of everyone.

Where is the line between 'broad strokes' and 'poor game design'?

[rat_bastard]

Palladium has never tried to make an all inclusive rules system, its not their style thats why they do not try to make rules for every little situation they paint in broad strokes and focus on the setting rather than the mechanics.

'every little situation' implies that a character sitting somewhere with damaged armor and saying 'I'd like to repair this' is somehow a rare occurrence in Rifts.

It's one thing to 'paint broad strokes', it's a complete other to make a game where characters live or die by their MDC armor.... mention that repairing the armor is 'Possible', but then give literally no mechanic at all as to how this repair works. But however it works, it somehow involves a 25%+ 5% per level, which just confuses the heck out of everyone.

Where is the line between 'broad strokes' and 'poor game design'?

you have a skill, you have a bunch of different tool kits and you have a GM. Congrats you have everything you need.

[Killer Cyborg]

Palladium has never tried to make an all inclusive rules system, its not their style thats why they do not try to make rules for every little situation they paint in broad strokes and focus on the setting rather than the mechanics.

'every little situation' implies that a character sitting somewhere with damaged armor and saying 'I'd like to repair this' is somehow a rare occurrence in Rifts.

It's one thing to 'paint broad strokes', it's a complete other to make a game where characters live or die by their MDC armor.... mention that repairing the armor is 'Possible', but then give literally no mechanic at all as to how this repair works. But however it works, it somehow involves a 25%+ 5% per level, which just confuses the heck out of everyone.

Where is the line between 'broad strokes' and 'poor game design'?

you have a skill, you have a bunch of different tool kits and you have a GM. Congrats you have everything you need.

We have everything we need to make up the rest of what we need.
Like an idea of what materials can be used, how much material gets wasted in the process of patching stuff up, and a lot of other stuff.
I have to agree with Doc here; they're half-assing it.

[Library Ogre]

If you have it available, the penalties for a Bio-Maintenance Engineer from Invid Invasion or Sentinels, that works very well for operators. Likewise, the Hardware characters from Heroes Unlimited have good modifiers if you want in-depth. Otherwise, the skill penalties from page 301 of the RUE also work.

So, talking about what's necessary for the job. I would say a torch (Wilks has laser torches, which are great for this kind of work), and several wrenches and clamps (to hold the patches in place while you weld them with the torch). If it's had its environmentals breached, it's going to take electronics tools.

[keir451]

I run alot of tech based campaigns so that skill is almost always in use. I have the player roll vs the wpns enginer skill (providing h/she has the prerequisite materials and tools on hand) and say "OK you've repaired this much MDC", we may add some "flavor text" along the lines of what the chara is doing but that's basiscally it. If they are using it in the sense of creating a new weapon I require them to detail what kind of weapo they want to make then I say how long it takes and what they need to accomplish this goal. It helps that some of my gamers have real life experience in machining, chemistry, and general engineering to help point me in the right direction.
We run it (for the players)as though having someone with Weap. Eng. repair something is nearly the equivalent of taking a car back to the factory for repairs.
If you fail the roll then you've imperfectly repaired the armor, if you succeed your roll you'v e completely repaired the armor. If electronics are involved then a seperate roll on Elec. Eng. (for most normal/military vehicles and body armor) or Robot Elec. (for Robots and Power Armor). We also statet that the chara. has to spend "X" amount of time (typically down time/roleplaying time) fixing things up, we also reduce the prices of repairs to 10% of listed costs-otherwise it's just easier to buy new armor than to repair it.

[Cybermancer]

I'm a mechanic by trade and I always considered the rules to be very vague and a little frustrating from a professional point of view. So I sat down and wrote out what I thought to be very realistic rules to accurately simulate what is required to repair complex mechanisms.

Then I stepped back and cried at the horrible monstrosity I had created. It was unwieldy, complex and incomprehensible to any non-technical person. So I trashed it.

As a baseline I use, as others have suggested, the rules found for the Bio-maintenance engineer and Hardware characters. Then I have a few other things I do to make book keeping easier and a little (just a little) closer to representing how repairs would be done.

Generic MDC: This is material that can be moulded by the Operator/Mechanic into armor repairs. 1 Generic MDC weighs one pound and takes up 10cm cubed of volume. This is painfully inaccurate but done so that my non-technically inclined friends can enjoy playing technical characters while making things easier on all of us. So the operator keeps track of how much generic MDC they have to make repairs with. Generic MDC is good for most armor repairs. There is no penalty for using Generic MDC for repair work.

Salvage MDC: Any armor stripped off of salvage. Only remaining MDC on an object can be salvaged and at a rate of two to one. So if the players blow apart a Robot by destroying the main body MDC they can't strip the main body for salvage armor. They can strip the arms however. So if one arm had 100 MDC remaining and the other had 50 MDC remaining and they were both salvaged, they would produce 75 Salvage MDC. Not everything can be salvaged for armor MDC, usually only main body, limbs and occasionally heads. There is a -10% penalty for working with salvage MDC.

Specialized MDC: This is actually several sub categories and covers special armor types such as the Naruni camoflage armor, Archon Cerasteel or the Glitterboy Chromiam armor. Repairs must be made with specialized MDC (each type kept track of seperately) to repair items normally made with that material. Repairs made with generic or salvage MDC will cause that part of the repair to lose the special quality it originally had (creating a potential weakness) and only half the MDC lost can be restored. So if a Glitterboy lost 100 MDC and the Operator only had 50 Crome MDC and 50 Generic MDC, he could restore 50 MDC with the orignal qualities plus a 25 MDC patch that would no longer be laser resistant. A patch that opponents could make called shots for. Note that the operatore would only use 25 generic MDC to restore the 25 MDC to the patch. He just can't plug the hole any better than half until he gets some of the original material to work with. There is no penatly for using the proper material. There is a -10% penalty to use generic MDC on special material repairs. There is a -20% penalty to use salvaged material on special material repairs.

It generally takes 1 hour per 10 MDC restored. Note that is man hours. So two qualified techs can do the repair 20 MDC per hour ( I generally require a minimum of an hour for any repair). A technically inclined person (Basic Mechanics skill or other unrelated mechanical skill to the repair being made) provide 50% manpower hours when assisting a qualified technician. So if a technician and an assistant work for two hours on a repair, then they have made three man hours worth of repairs. Only a maximum of three people can work on any one repair although it is possible to split up seperate repairs on the same vehicle amongst several teams.

For electronics, I use repair budgets and complete systems. So if an electronic system goes down I will tell the player, "The repair will take $10,000 worth of parts and one hour of labor." As a rule of thumb I assign one hour for every ten thousand dollars or credits it takes to repair it. Salvaging a broken $10,000 electronics system will weild $5,000 worth of salvage budget (with a -10% penalty to make repairs with). Salvaging a system that still works properly wields it's proper value and goes into the regular budget. In addition, there are complete systems, such as 'combat computer', 'radio', 'radar' and so forth. While I know I should seperate if further by vehicle type and even model type but in this case, ease of game play wins out. One dollar/credit of electronic parts weighs one ounce and takes up one inch cubed.

Entire limbs, weapons and other parts can be kept track of as assemblies or as either MDC or electronic parts depending on negotiations between the player and myself. Usually we go for ease of record keeping.

I've dumped the idea that weapons engineers know anything about armor repair. To repair ground vehicle armor, automotive mechanics, for aircraft, aircraft mechanics, for Robots or powerarmor use robot mechanics and for sea vessels and everything else, use mechanical engineer.

I completely dump the jury rig skill. If you have the appropriate repair skill then you can make jury rig something at -10%. If you have a close skill that might work, -20%. If you're unskilled, sorry about your luck.

I also dump Electricity Generation (see instead electrical engineer or even basic electronics).

Also, literacy is required for any electrical skill and any mechanical skill more complicated than basic mechanics. So all Operators in my game get Literacy (+25%). The fact that Operators were written without literacy as an OCC skill suggests that the concept was written by someone with no clue at all about fixing pretty much anything. Definitely they had no understanding of mechanics or engineering.

[Supergyro]

The system in general looks usable (Would make an interesting Rifter Article). That more folks haven't pointed out the repair problem demonstrates how many people play MDC characters who heal rather than non-healing MDC guys (borgs, guys in armor, etc)

Also, literacy is required for any electrical skill and any mechanical skill more complicated than basic mechanics. So all Operators in my game get Literacy (+25%). The fact that Operators were written without literacy as an OCC skill suggests that the concept was written by someone with no clue at all about fixing pretty much anything. Definitely they had no understanding of mechanics or engineering.

Minor quibble, given that Operators have telemechanics, wouldn't that waive any literacy requirement?

[Shark_Force]

Minor quibble, given that Operators have telemechanics, wouldn't that waive any literacy requirement?

*some* operators have telemechanics, more of them do not.

perhaps the biggest problem with telemechanics is duration, though.

(well, that and going from a concept designed on paper to creating an actual physical device, where you have to understand it *before* you start working on it).

[Cybermancer]

Also, literacy is required for any electrical skill and any mechanical skill more complicated than basic mechanics. So all Operators in my game get Literacy (+25%). The fact that Operators were written without literacy as an OCC skill suggests that the concept was written by someone with no clue at all about fixing pretty much anything. Definitely they had no understanding of mechanics or engineering.

Minor quibble, given that Operators have telemechanics, wouldn't that waive any literacy requirement?

Well, for starters, not all Operators have telemechanics. Or at least they didn't in the original main book. I'd have to check for RUE. But there is a lot of information and training required that isn't covered by telemechanics. Having a schematic and knowing the function of an item, while helpful during a repair is not a garuntee of success. There's a lot more information such as torque specs, order of assembly, testing techniques and so forth that would be required. Furthermore, having an image of a schematic in your mind isn't going to do you any good if you don't know how to read it. And that doesn't even get into all the training that goes into being a mechanic (nevermind an engineer or electrician or anything else that an Operator is supposed to be). Nope, sorry. There is just no way this class could function without literacy.

You'll have to excuse me as this is something of a touchy subject with me. I've always considered it somewhat insulting to suggest that an illiterate could possibly do my job as a mechanic much less all the jobs an Operator does. And if you think I'm touchy about it, try talking to an airframe tech or an aviation tech about how their trades got merged into one skill (don't even bother suggesting that an illiterate could do their job).

But just to enlighten people about why a modern mechanic requires literacy:

To read technical manuals. (Telemechanics doesn't tell you maintenance proceedures, these do)
To read schematics. (Telemechanics provides you a schematic in your mind, but does not tell you how to read or understand it)
To read parts manuals. (Telemechanics doesn't tell you manufacturers part numbers so you can order/buy new parts)
To read diagnostic computers. (Telemechanics actually takes the place of these which makes it a very useful power)
To read the manuals for diagnostic computers. (Telemechanics does negate this due to acting like a diagnostic computer)
To read other diagnostic equipment. (Telemechanics does negate this as it does the same function)

So even if you had telemechanics, you'd still need to read and understand maintenance proceedures. It takes more than knowing how part A fits to part B to repair brakes. If you just assembled everything in a braking system exactly to the schematic, it still wouldn't work. The brakes would have to be filled with brake fluid, the right fluid would have to be used, the fluid would have to be bled, major and minor adjustments would have to be made to specification and that doesn't take into account certain specific things that are required for ABS brakes. Knowing the function, schematic and how it all works together would not give you one bit of information on the proceedures required. It doesn't even tell you a proceedure is required after assembly. Nor can you learn it once on one system and then know it for all systems. Every vehicle make and model has different proceedures and proceedures between different manufacturers can differentiate greatly. It is impossible to know all the proceedures for all the systems. That's why there are manuals that a trained mechanic can refer to in order to make the repair.

I'd hate to see how much more complicated it will be next decade, much less in a hundred years.

Or with alien technology.

So not only is literacy absolutely required for a humble mechanic, I'd say there was a -20 to-30% penalty for any technician working on an unfamiliar system without manuals for that specific system.

*Edit Note*

Shark force is right about both points. No operator has enough ISP to keep Telemechanics going long enough for some of the larger jobs.

[Dog_O_War]

For people that are saying "requires torch", how is that useful when your armour is made of magic leaves? Or Fury-Beetle carapace? etc... I wouldn't get more in-depth than "requires tools", as body-armour in this game is more diverse in material than restricted to metal.


Also, the the ability to repair armour under the Weapons Engineer skill alludes to vehicular armours, though I wouldn't preclude personal armour.

The General Repairs and Maintenance skill also allows for the repair of armour, gives a definitive amount repaired, and how to repair it. I suggest applying the methods described under this skill to other skills appropriate for repairing various armours (like leatherworking for repairing MDC leather armours).


Personally though I would go more in-depth on the damage done to determine how easy or hard it is to repair the armour.

For instance I would divide the armour into blocks of 20%; 100-81%, 80-61%, 60-41%, 40-21% 20-1%, and for the purposes of salvage, 0-neg19%.
In the first increment offer a bonus to the repair check; +10% for repairing superficial and minor damages in the 100-81% category.
The second increment, offer no bonus or penalties in the 80-61% increment.
The third sees a penalty at -10% in the 60-41% increment.
The fourth has a -20% penalty in the 40-21% increment.
The fifth has a -30% penalty in the 20-1% increment.
The last increment determines if there is simply anything left worth salvaging; it only provides materials at this category of damage.

Then apply tool/shop bonuses/penalties;
Superior shop repairs gives +20% to the skill check.
typical shop repairs gives +10% to the skill check, as does having superior tools.
Appropriate tools gives no bonuses or penalties.
Improvised tools has a -10% penalty.
No tools makes repairs impossible.

Anyways, that's how I've done it so far. Generally though instead of rendering repairs "impossible" on a failed check, I've instead had both time and materials wasted, though another check was allowed.

[Supergyro]

My quibble came about thinking not about repairs as a part of the modern world, but as repairs as part of a post-apocalyptic setting. Without the trappings of the modern world, many of the literacy requirements would be less effective or be taken over by oral tradition (as is done in many post-apocalyptic and sci-fi settings where technology is seen as arcane).

I understand the frustration. Here's a story from my house one Christmas

My Mom (To my brother), "What are you studying in School right now?"
My brother, "I'm currently getting my doctorate in Mechanical Engineering"
My Mom, "Excellent, now can you go back to the kitchen and fix the toaster? It's broken."

My brother was not thrilled...

However, there are science fiction ideas that could be taken into account. I'll take each of the literacy considerations and talk about how it would be different in a science fiction setting.

To read technical manuals. (Telemechanics doesn't tell you maintenance proceedures, these do)

It's 100% fair to think that telemechanics would also enlighten the user of relevant maintenance procedures. Moreover, CS troops know these procedures for all their equipment despite being largely illiterate. These procedures can be taught through oral tradition or derived from knowledge of similar systems...

I don't think any of these are a substitute for a well-written manual, but these all would be good in a pinch.

To read schematics. (Telemechanics provides you a schematic in your mind, but does not tell you how to read or understand it)

If telemechanics leaves you unable to understand the schematic, then it's useless. Telemechanics would have to allow the understanding of said schematic.

To read parts manuals. (Telemechanics doesn't tell you manufacturers part numbers so you can order/buy new parts)

There is very little ordering of new parts going on in a post-apocalyptic setting. Much more reasonable is the determination of whether scavanged parts can be used in pre-existing equipment, something telemechanics, or a very intuitive (but illiterate) mechanic could get a grip on.


That being said, it also underscores on very important post-apocalyptic science-fiction trope...

Literacy is power and manuals are valuable. So I'd treat illiterate mechanics by the Rifts rules, but rather than penalizing players for not having manuals or literacy (Which is kind of a jerk move), I would INSTEAD give a +20-40% bonus to repair checks on the extremely rare case a manual is available and the character is literate enough to be able to read it.

This would also mean that people would, upon finding out the character has a manual, try to beg/borrow/steal/kill to get it from him. Charletans would be selling 'fake manuals' to suckers, and entire sessions could be run based on the hunting down of these exceeding valuable pieces of information.

Shark force is right about both points. No operator has enough ISP to keep Telemechanics going long enough for some of the larger jobs.

Again, a problem that game designers are not mechanics. If the stated rules of telemechanics have too small a duration for a telemechanic to do anything noteworthy along the lines of repairs, the duration should be changed rather than punishing the players for playing a game that has machines but was not designed by a mechanic.

[Jorel]

Also, literacy is required for any electrical skill and any mechanical skill more complicated than basic mechanics. So all Operators in my game get Literacy (+25%). The fact that Operators were written without literacy as an OCC skill suggests that the concept was written by someone with no clue at all about fixing pretty much anything. Definitely they had no understanding of mechanics or engineering.

Minor quibble, given that Operators have telemechanics, wouldn't that waive any literacy requirement?

Well, for starters, not all Operators have telemechanics. Or at least they didn't in the original main book. I'd have to check for RUE. But there is a lot of information and training required that isn't covered by telemechanics. Having a schematic and knowing the function of an item, while helpful during a repair is not a garuntee of success. There's a lot more information such as torque specs, order of assembly, testing techniques and so forth that would be required. Furthermore, having an image of a schematic in your mind isn't going to do you any good if you don't know how to read it. And that doesn't even get into all the training that goes into being a mechanic (nevermind an engineer or electrician or anything else that an Operator is supposed to be). Nope, sorry. There is just no way this class could function without literacy.

You'll have to excuse me as this is something of a touchy subject with me. I've always considered it somewhat insulting to suggest that an illiterate could possibly do my job as a mechanic much less all the jobs an Operator does. And if you think I'm touchy about it, try talking to an airframe tech or an aviation tech about how their trades got merged into one skill (don't even bother suggesting that an illiterate could do their job).

But just to enlighten people about why a modern mechanic requires literacy:

To read technical manuals. (Telemechanics doesn't tell you maintenance proceedures, these do)
To read schematics. (Telemechanics provides you a schematic in your mind, but does not tell you how to read or understand it)
To read parts manuals. (Telemechanics doesn't tell you manufacturers part numbers so you can order/buy new parts)
To read diagnostic computers. (Telemechanics actually takes the place of these which makes it a very useful power)
To read the manuals for diagnostic computers. (Telemechanics does negate this due to acting like a diagnostic computer)
To read other diagnostic equipment. (Telemechanics does negate this as it does the same function)

So even if you had telemechanics, you'd still need to read and understand maintenance proceedures. It takes more than knowing how part A fits to part B to repair brakes. If you just assembled everything in a braking system exactly to the schematic, it still wouldn't work. The brakes would have to be filled with brake fluid, the right fluid would have to be used, the fluid would have to be bled, major and minor adjustments would have to be made to specification and that doesn't take into account certain specific things that are required for ABS brakes. Knowing the function, schematic and how it all works together would not give you one bit of information on the proceedures required. It doesn't even tell you a proceedure is required after assembly. Nor can you learn it once on one system and then know it for all systems. Every vehicle make and model has different proceedures and proceedures between different manufacturers can differentiate greatly. It is impossible to know all the proceedures for all the systems. That's why there are manuals that a trained mechanic can refer to in order to make the repair.

I'd hate to see how much more complicated it will be next decade, much less in a hundred years.

Or with alien technology.

So not only is literacy absolutely required for a humble mechanic, I'd say there was a -20 to-30% penalty for any technician working on an unfamiliar system without manuals for that specific system.

*Edit Note*

Shark force is right about both points. No operator has enough ISP to keep Telemechanics going long enough for some of the larger jobs.

Pretty sure every Operator automatically gets Literacy. It is a Required skill (as well as advanced Maths), for both Electrical and Mechanical Engineer, which are both skills the Operator starts with. You automatically get any skills required to use skills a character starts with. Sorry nobody took the time to explain what should be obvious. Sounds like a lot of misplaced frustration. Yes...every Operator has the Literacy skill.

[Zer0 Kay]

A welding torch won't even work all the time for "modern" armor as many arent even pure metal and melting it would likely reduce the structural integrity. Try welding a carbon fiber hood to the metal body of a car not gonna work right. So how about just stating that it requires appropriate tools. A professional armorer in Rifts that just deals with tech armor would likely have several complete tool kits for different materials, rather than being able to have a single main kit with a few specialized tools for the different kinds.

[Cybermancer]

Pretty sure every Operator automatically gets Literacy. It is a Required skill (as well as advanced Maths), for both Electrical and Mechanical Engineer, which are both skills the Operator starts with. You automatically get any skills required to use skills a character starts with. Sorry nobody took the time to explain what should be obvious. Sounds like a lot of misplaced frustration. Yes...every Operator has the Literacy skill.

Hagan Lonovitch from the original Source Book One.

So no, not every operator is literate. Any made with the Rifts Main Book has the potential to be illiterate. And literacy is still not listed as an OCC skill in RUE although it should be.

[Cybermancer]

*Snip*.

If a professional mechanic telling you that his job would be impossible to learn, much less practice is impossible without literacy won't persuade you, then further debate is really quite pointless.

Still two points on telemechanics.

Telemechanics is a daignostic tool. An awesome diagnostic tool. That is all. Without mechanical knowledge to back it up, it's pretty much useless. Prescribing attributes to it that aren't described in the power is not valid.

And not every Operator has the power anyway. Less than half, in fact. 40% of Operators from the original book may select it or three other powers. 15-20% of RUE Operators can potentially have it.

So it comes back to Operators needing to be able to be able technicians in their own right. Which requires literacy.

[Jorel]

*Snip*.

So it comes back to Operators needing to be able to be able technicians in their own right. Which requires literacy.

All Operators are Literate. Read between the lines, even Hagan was Literate. Read my above post about Required skills. You can't be an Operator if you don't have the skills to operate, which require Literacy and Advanced Maths.

[Cybermancer]

*Snip*.

So it comes back to Operators needing to be able to be able technicians in their own right. Which requires literacy.

All Operators are Literate. Read between the lines, even Hagan was Literate. Read my above post about Required skills. You can't be an Operator if you don't have the skills to operate, which require Literacy and Advanced Maths.

Hagan made it to being a 4th level Operator being illiterate and then Archie taught him literacy.

Therefore it is possible by established Rifts canon for an operator to be illiterate. I don't have to read between the lines, it's stated in black and white in both the Original Sourcebook One and the Rifts Mechanoids soucebook.

[Jorel]

NPCs do not follow canon rules. Never have.

[Cybermancer]

NPCs do not follow canon rules. Never have.

Hagan didn't break any canon rules with his creation. He was created with the Original Rifts Book.

The fact remains. By established Rifts continuity, it is possible for an Operator to not be literate.

[jedi078]

One of the Rifter #33 has some rules fro repairing aircraft. The rules can easily be applied to mecha, armor and vehicles.

[Jorel]

NPCs do not follow canon rules. Never have.

Hagan didn't break any canon rules with his creation. He was created with the Original Rifts Book.

The fact remains. By established Rifts continuity, it is possible for an Operator to not be literate.

According to RMB/RUE an Operator starts with Mechanical and Electrical Engineer. Literacy is a Required skill (as well as advanced Maths), for both Electrical and Mechanical Engineer, which are both skills the Operator starts with. You automatically get any skills required to use skills a character starts with. How is that hard to understand?
If Hagan wasn't Literate then they didn't follow their own formula for making an Operator. Thus they left out skills every Operator has by default. That is not following written creation rules. It doesn't say those skills are suggestions, in order to be that class those are the necessary skills. Can't have Engineer in Electrical or Mechanical without Literacy (and Advanced Maths). If the writers left them out for NPCs then they chose to use non-canon creation rules which they do for NPCs.

[Cybermancer]

According to RMB/RUE an Operator starts with Mechanical and Electrical Engineer. Literacy is a Required skill (as well as advanced Maths), for both Electrical and Mechanical Engineer, which are both skills the Operator starts with. You automatically get any skills required to use skills a character starts with. How is that hard to understand?
If Hagan wasn't Literate then they didn't follow their own formula for making an Operator. Thus they left out skills every Operator has by default. That is not following written creation rules. It doesn't say those skills are suggestions, in order to be that class those are the necessary skills. Can't have Engineer in Electrical or Mechanical without Literacy (and Advanced Maths). If the writers left them out for NPCs then they chose to use non-canon creation rules which they do for NPCs.

Electrical Engineer requires advanced math in both books. You pointed this out yourself.

In both books the Operator gets basic math as an OCC skill and is given the option of selecting advanced math in their OCC related skills (which wouldn't be necesary if they had it already).

Another precedent for the Operator having skills without the prerequisites.

So instead of showing that the operator has to have literacy, you have shown another way the class breaks the games own rules.

Literacy and Advanced Math should both be OCC skills for the Operator but in neither case is it shown. Both are available as OCC related skills. In RMB, literacy is specifically listed whereas in RUE it's included in categories that the Operator can take any of. It could be argued that for literacy, it applies to other languages. But there are only two math skills. The basic one (which is specifically listed as an OCC skill), and advanced (which is specifically listed as available for selection as an OCC Related skill-meaning that the class does not already have it).

So it's seen in the class itself that it gets skills that it does not qualify for.

And none of this dismisses the fact that Hagan Lonovitch was illiterate and was an operator. Therefore in the world of Rifts it is possible to be an illiterate operator. A key character exists that proves this is true. How is that hard to understand?

[Supergyro]

If a professional mechanic telling you that his job would be impossible to learn, much less practice is impossible without literacy won't persuade you, then further debate is really quite pointless.

I've never found 'argument by authority' that persuasive, nor should you...

....particularly when discussing giant robots .

Telemechanics is a daignostic tool. An awesome diagnostic tool. That is all. Without mechanical knowledge to back it up, it's pretty much useless. Prescribing attributes to it that aren't described in the power is not valid.

Telemechanics explicitly states that the knowledge gained applies to all aspects of the machine, this implies maintenence and explicitly mentions repair. Don't nerf Telemechanics, it's a super psionic ability, a player who has it is going to want to use it and nerfing abilities like that is a surefire way to drive your players nuts.

Illiterate mechanics are a post-apocalyptic sci-fi staple, even moreso than 50-foot tall battle robots (usually the mechanics do their thing via rote or ritual with tech-worshipping religious overtones. Operators swing a little in this direction). Saying both are impossible by modern standards does not prevent the use of them (Ray Bradbury proposed illiterate literature Professors... if science fiction can handle illiterate literature professors, it can handle illiterate mechanics).

This doesn't change that I thought 95% of the repair rules you proposed were valuable and good.

[Jorel]

According to RMB/RUE an Operator starts with Mechanical and Electrical Engineer. Literacy is a Required skill (as well as advanced Maths), for both Electrical and Mechanical Engineer, which are both skills the Operator starts with. You automatically get any skills required to use skills a character starts with. How is that hard to understand?
If Hagan wasn't Literate then they didn't follow their own formula for making an Operator. Thus they left out skills every Operator has by default. That is not following written creation rules. It doesn't say those skills are suggestions, in order to be that class those are the necessary skills. Can't have Engineer in Electrical or Mechanical without Literacy (and Advanced Maths). If the writers left them out for NPCs then they chose to use non-canon creation rules which they do for NPCs.

Electrical Engineer requires advanced math in both books. You pointed this out yourself.

In both books the Operator gets basic math as an OCC skill and is given the option of selecting advanced math in their OCC related skills (which wouldn't be necesary if they had it already).

Another precedent for the Operator having skills without the prerequisites.

So instead of showing that the operator has to have literacy, you have shown another way the class breaks the games own rules.

Literacy and Advanced Math should both be OCC skills for the Operator but in neither case is it shown. Both are available as OCC related skills. In RMB, literacy is specifically listed whereas in RUE it's included in categories that the Operator can take any of. It could be argued that for literacy, it applies to other languages. But there are only two math skills. The basic one (which is specifically listed as an OCC skill), and advanced (which is specifically listed as available for selection as an OCC Related skill-meaning that the class does not already have it).

So it's seen in the class itself that it gets skills that it does not qualify for.

And none of this dismisses the fact that Hagan Lonovitch was illiterate and was an operator. Therefore in the world of Rifts it is possible to be an illiterate operator. A key character exists that proves this is true. How is that hard to understand?

So how do you explain Artificial Intelligence skill which is not an OCC related skill option for an Operator but makes specific mention of Operators in the skill description?
These are optional rules. I never use an NPC as a perfect example of how to properly outline a character class. A guideline maybe, but not usually. Hagan is an extreme case and a silly example of the skills every operator should know in order to do their job. I personally don't believe someone needs to be able to read to fix something, but that isn't the sum of the skills an Operator has. They are an Engineer 3 times over and 2 require Literacy so they get that skill and Adv. Math. They don't need to spend extra skill picks on those skills. They already have them. Consider the Adv Math skill pick a typo.

[Cybermancer]

If a professional mechanic telling you that his job would be impossible to learn, much less practice is impossible without literacy won't persuade you, then further debate is really quite pointless.

I've never found 'argument by authority' that persuasive, nor should you...

....particularly when discussing giant robots

I gave examples in my post previouis to that one. Your replies weren't really relevant to them. They rely on the idea that telemechanics will solve all the operators problems. As already mentioned, most operators don't even have the ability so using it to defend a lack of literacy for the operator class is a non sequiter. The class must be able to stand on it's own without the power.

Telemechanics is a daignostic tool. An awesome diagnostic tool. That is all. Without mechanical knowledge to back it up, it's pretty much useless. Prescribing attributes to it that aren't described in the power is not valid.

Telemechanics explicitly states that the knowledge gained applies to all aspects of the machine, this implies maintenence and explicitly mentions repair. Don't nerf Telemechanics, it's a super psionic ability, a player who has it is going to want to use it and nerfing abilities like that is a surefire way to drive your players nuts.

Illiterate mechanics are a post-apocalyptic sci-fi staple, even moreso than 50-foot tall battle robots (usually the mechanics do their thing via rote or ritual with tech-worshipping religious overtones. Operators swing a little in this direction). Saying both are impossible by modern standards does not prevent the use of them (Ray Bradbury proposed illiterate literature Professors... if science fiction can handle illiterate literature professors, it can handle illiterate mechanics).

This doesn't change that I thought 95% of the repair rules you proposed were valuable and good.

I'll concede that for the duration of telemechanics it would provide much of the knowledge required (to a static 80% ability). But the duration remains limited and that's not me nerfing it, that's the power as written. And again, since the majority of Operators don't have this ability, it's not relevant to justifying illiterate operators which is what you set out to do with your little quibble.

And thanks for your opinion that the rules were valuable and good (minus the literacy thing). It just happens that the literacy thing is a pet peeve of mine, ill thought out post-apocolyptic trope or not.

So how do you explain Artificial Intelligence skill which is not an OCC related skill option for an Operator but makes specific mention of Operators in the skill description?
These are optional rules. I never use an NPC as a perfect example of how to properly outline a character class. A guideline maybe, but not usually. Hagan is an extreme case and a silly example of the skills every operator should know in order to do their job. I personally don't believe someone needs to be able to read to fix something, but that isn't the sum of the skills an Operator has. They are an Engineer 3 times over and 2 require Literacy so they get that skill and Adv. Math. They don't need to spend extra skill picks on those skills. They already have them. Consider the Adv Math skill pick a typo.

I've referred to the class as written, black and white. You refer to 'between the lines' and when the black and white disagrees with you, you call it a typo. I provided a hard example of an illiterate operator existing in the Rifts world.

While I agree that the character should and does have those skills logically and always give them to Operator players (as indicated in my original post about the +25% to literacy), the fact remains that the Operator isn't given these skills by the system. And the case for illiterate Operators existing is solidily made by the fact that one exists.

As for you not beleiving that someone needs to be able to read to fix something all I can say is that every mechanic I know cracks open repair manuals and reads them before being able to make repairs on systems and vehicles they are not familar with. Heck, many crack open a book to check things like specs on jobs they've done many times because there's too much to memorize. There's a world of difference between changing oil, a tire, a battery and many other simple jobs which don't require cracking a book (unless checking torque specs for the wheel lugs or checking how alarm systems or automatic starters interact with a battery) and the technical and advanced systems that make up the most of a car.

On my own car there are warning labels under the hood that provide important information regarding disconnecting the battery because of the security system. A warning an illiterate would miss. There are too many specs and complex proceedures to memorize which is why having a manual is a must. Sure there are many jobs on many vehicles that I've done hundreds of times that I do have memorized but there are far, far many more I'd need a manual for or I just couldn't make the repair.

So beleive what you want about being able to read and make complex repairs.

[Jorel]

I never said how well or easily those things could be done without being literate, just that literacy isn't necessary.

[Cybermancer]

I never said how well or easily those things could be done without being literate, just that literacy isn't necessary.

When it comes to electrical systems, brake systems, automatic transmission rebuilds, engine valve clearances, reading a diagnostic computer read out, reading and following trouble shooting directions and any number of other complex repairs, it's not a matter of doing it well or easily. It's a matter of being able to do them at all. These are highly complex and technical jobs that require a reference in order to proceed and succeed.

[Jorel]

We are talking about a fantasy future here, aren't we?

[Cybermancer]

We are talking about a fantasy future here, aren't we?

The trend in automotive technology over the last hundred years is towards more complicated systems and maintenance proceedures. There's no reason not to expect that trend to continue for the next hundred years. So in a future fantasy setting I would expect the requirement for literate technicians and maintenance personnel to increase.

Actually, the trend in mechanics for the longest time is to specialize in a few systems because knowing everything is so difficult and requires constant educational updates to stay abreast of innovations in the industry.

[Jorel]

I thought we were discussing rules, not reality.

[Cybermancer]

I thought we were discussing rules, not reality.

Rules that should reflect the reality, at least tangently. And in any case, my most recent responses have been to address your statement that:

I personally don't believe someone needs to be able to read to fix something,

To which real life examples are wholly relavent.

[Jorel]

I still believe there is a level of CS citizen who doesn't know how to read functionally or isn't literate and can still be trained how to fix extremely complex and complicated machinery and technology and operate it without ever reading the manual for that technology.

[Cybermancer]

I still believe there is a level of CS citizen who doesn't know how to read functionally or isn't literate and can still be trained how to fix extremely complex and complicated machinery and technology and operate it without ever reading the manual for that technology.

If that's what you want to believe, go ahead. I can't stop you.

Anymore than I can stop someone from believing that Elvis is stilll alive.

[Jorel]

Elvis is alive. He lives in all of us.

[Cybermancer]

Elvis is alive. He lives in all of us.

Not true. The dead beat wouldn't pay the rent so I had him evicted from me last Sunday.

[Shark_Force]

I still believe there is a level of CS citizen who doesn't know how to read functionally or isn't literate and can still be trained how to fix extremely complex and complicated machinery and technology and operate it without ever reading the manual for that technology.

you're missing the point. yes, you can train someone to be able to troubleshoot one specific device in some cases without them being able to read. but here's the thing: we're not talking about someone who can fix a blender or even someone who can assemble a specific car engine correctly.

we're talking about someone who understands how to fix and modify just about everything, made by every single company, in all their many different forms. you see "crusader armor" and you think there's only one, but in a more realistic world there's going to be 20 different variations on that one armor, each of which will have slightly different arrangements of the electrical components, and each of which has to be fitted to the person wearing it. you see "mountaineer atv" and you think there's some company making those, and that's all there is on the market, but that isn't the case. there's dozens of different versions out there; some may have slightly better or worse handling, slightly more or less MDC, slightly more or less speed, slightly more or less options, and so forth; one might include a radar, another might not even have a radio that can receive AM/FM, another might emphasise comfort and have air conditioning while another may not even have windows on the side. because there are dozens of small companies that make knock-offs of successful products.

it really just is not realistic to assume that the operator knows how to work with every single type of mechanical or electronic device out there without being able to read, because there really are dozens or even hundreds of variations on pretty much everything out there. now, palladium doesn't print those (thankfully) because none of us particularly want to pay for 20 pages of variant jetpacks that can lift slightly different weights, have slightly different speeds, come in different colours, and have different fuel capacities and fuel efficiencies, but are otherwise mostly the same. (they probably also don't do that because it would be incredibly dull from *their* perspective also)

[Jorel]

I think ya'll are missing the point that every Operator gets Literacy and somehow it has become a completely different discussion which isn't really relevant to my version of Rifts reality.

[Jorel]

Elvis is alive. He lives in all of us.

Not true. The dead beat wouldn't pay the rent so I had him evicted from me last Sunday.

I prefer to worship at the alter to Old Fat Lazy Doped Elvis. He was really the wisest of them all. What with his peanut butter, banana and bacon sandwiches. Yum.

[Supergyro]

And thanks for your opinion that the rules were valuable and good (minus the literacy thing). It just happens that the literacy thing is a pet peeve of mine, ill thought out post-apocolyptic trope or not.

The post-apocalyptic trope is the most important part. The sorts of complex systems you're mentioning would be the first ones to lose function in a post-apocalyptic setting (because these systems require large amounts of information being freely available for upkeep). There is a massive dis-incentive to use systems like these at all (being able to read the manual is useless if there are no manuals to read).

Meanwhile, post-apocalyptic settings are all about what to do when information/resources are scarce. I'll use the Farenheit 451 example again. The people in this novel lived in a world where the written word was illegal, so they committed entire works of literature to memory. Transmission would have to be oral. The manual to a 2010 Mercedes vs Tolstoy's War and Peace... which would be more difficult to commit to memory?

Systems which would be *impossible* to work with without literacy would be systems that almost no one would use... and good LORD doesn't that provide some fascinating adventure hooks... For example... (now I'm going to have some fun)

Imagine if Glitter Boy production and maintenence was based off of oral tradition and rote learning. This method is (to say the least) the least ideal way to transmit information, but it was necessary due to the apocalypse. Little does everyone know that the current model of Glitter boy is built... incorrectly. What if the Boom Gun is built wrong? Would anyone truly notice?

So now you base an adventure about someone who finds the correct configuration on a data disk in the ruins of Madhaven. With this information, a skilled mechanic could literally double the damage of a boom gun... if he could get it to a place with the right resources... meanwhile *everyone* would be coming after him if word got out because that would be a game changer in North America!

Cmon now, isn't that a fun idea?

And if the Glitter Boy is the system which for some reason could be replicated (albeit poorly)... what are the more complex systems like? Complex machines break down more easily... so one adventure could be based on the finding of a preserved power armor which... though incredibly powerful, would break down because the where-with-all to maintain it no longer exists.

I understand the peeve. I'm a chemist, they don't think chemists need to read at all ( ) but I'm perfectly ok with accepting the minor inaccuracy for the interesting adventure possibilities it opens up.