Character creation?

[rat_bastard]

pick up one of the cool scholar classes from rue. Lots of fun.

[Braden Campbell]

City Rat, Rogue Scholar, Cyber-Doc , and Operator are all good.

But if you really want to chanllenge yourself, play a Vagabond.

[rat_bastard]

City Rat, Rogue Scholar, Cyber-Doc , and Operator are all good.

But if you really want to chanllenge yourself, play a Vagabond.

dude, if he does not like mdc he'll HATE soap and candy!

[Rimmerdal]

Operator or an infantry type without PA/Robots. the Merc soldier can be interesting played right. There are places PA can't go. This where the grunt/Merc excells and where you tell the men from the boys.

Glitterboy pilots without glitterboys are just guys.

[Dustin Fireblade]

MDC is only as common as the GM allows, and by canon it's not really that common. The MDC stuff that we see is what I would call a "highlight reel" and Palladium doesn't do the greatest job getting the rest of the world information out. (I've been working on a alternate setting that will not be using MDC either.)


Anyway, the OCC choices above are not bad. In place of a Operator though you might want to look at the Headhunter Techno-Hound in Rifts Canada

[Talavar]

You don't want to play a mage or psychic, don't want to be item dependent, and don't want to hold your group back, right? As others have mentioned, some sort of scholar could be a good choice; sure, you won't be on the front lines, but you'll be able to have all the useful skills more combat-oriented classes can't take.

If you want to be in the thick of things, I'd say you're going to have to play a cyborg or some sort of mildly supernatural/creature of magic D-bee to maintain your independence of items.

[Dustin Fireblade]

MDC is only as common as the GM allows, and by canon it's not really that common. The MDC stuff that we see is what I would call a "highlight reel" and Palladium doesn't do the greatest job getting the rest of the world information out. (I've been working on a alternate setting that will not be using MDC either.)


Anyway, the OCC choices above are not bad. In place of a Operator though you might want to look at the Headhunter Techno-Hound in Rifts Canada

I'm just sort of worried that even though the highlight reel as you put it, seems to be all there is. If it isn't as common as it appears then why is every book nothing but mdc (even the cowboy hats are mdc!). I have quite a rifts collection for being an MDC hater, and thats because I use some of the stuff for my other games.

RUE puts it in better words than I can. I don't have the book handy here at work, but there's a section on MDC technology and how common it really is or isn't. I think the section is right after the equipment.

[Mack]

Charz,

Generally speaking there are three paths to power in Rifts: Magic, Psionics, and Technology.

You ruled out the first two, and then said you don't want to be item dependent which rules out Technology.

That doesn't leave much to work with. Take a look at some of the RCCs such as the Earth Child (England), Star Child (England), WereWolf/WerePanther (Conversion Book), Kremin Cyborg (CWC), Grackle Tooth (Canada), Noli Bushman (Canada), Vampire, or True Atlantean (Atlantis).

For some non-traditional, non-gun-toting types, try Professional Gambler (New West), Trapper-Woodsman (Canada), Saloon Bum (New West), or Preacher (New West).

Main thing is to pick something that compliments your party. You don't want to be the one scholar running with a pack of Vampires.

[Killer Cyborg]

mdc stuff exists throughout the books because thats what people want to play.

It's there because that's what the writers want to write.

[Giant2005]

If you plan on making a Rogue Scholar or an Operator or a Wilderness scout or any of the non man at arms classes, I suggest playing as a Yeno. No matter what you are, you are going to need to be able to defend yourself and with the Yeno's force field and energy beams you can do so without relying on equipment and regardless of your OCC.
Also keep in mind that Rifts is a multiverse, if you are more familiar with the classes included in HU and other books there really is nothing stopping you from using them (Unless your GM has blacklisted them). A Naural Genius would fit the bill.

[Killer Cyborg]

the sourcebook 1, revised or otherwise. But they are rather limited, no real option to create a Data per se, you'll have to do your own tinkering. Hairs that give you 8 attacks per round, sheesh!

Heck, one of my friends made Data using the old SB1 rules.
No real problem there.

[Talavar]

Sorry for being a pain, its just that rifts has such a wonderful flavor but such a silly system. I call it silly because of all of the other wonderful things that palladium makes that never see it past a small cult following (TMNT, system failure, and other great sdc systems) also because I'm a college student who knows far too many medical students, and tech heads for MDC to make since, but again I digress

What do medical students have to do with refuting mega-damage? Are they arguing that superheated plasma wouldn't basically vaporize an unshielded human body?

As to tech-heads, if you get too caught up in defining everything within the limits of today's science, not only do you have to throw out 90% of science fiction settings, but you look awful silly when those limits are surpassed.

[Killer Cyborg]

The medical guys say that they don't like it because of the irony of it. A superheated blast of plasma would not kill a human if it hit them on the hand, or graze against their body. A "vibro" blade wouldn't kill a man if his finger or cheek got cut. Thats why the fact a graze does instant death (a single point does 100 and a graze is a point).

While true, that's not a problem with Mega-Damage, it's a problem with the damage system overall.
For example, if a sword does 3d6 damage, that means that a "graze" from that sword still does 3 points of damage. Cut yourself shaving with it a few times and you could die.
And armor piercing bullets often do 1d6x10 SDC, which means that a graze from one of those can also be lethal, because it's still 10 SDC.

If you want to fix it, you can.
1. Change all d6x10 type damage rolls to 10d6 (or whatever the die type is).
2. Convert the number of dice in the damage die pool into a die variable itself instead of a fixed number. For example, the above 10d6 becomes 1d10d6. You roll a d10 to see how many d6s you roll, then roll that number of d6s for damage. This will give every attack the potential of only inflicting 1 point of damage, representing the minimal graze the attack can do that's worth noting.
3. In the case of mega-damage, if you end up only inflicting 1 MD worth of damage, instead of counting it as 100 SDC automatically, roll percentile dice for damage if the target is SDC. That way instead of a graze automatically doing 100 SDC worth of damage, it does 1-100, which allows for the sort of graze they're looking for.

Or you can just assume that a successful Strike roll means that the target was significantly hit by the weapon, not just grazed.

And the tech-heads hate it because not of limited technology but because of the weirdness of it. An example would be that the average tank having around 4 MDC (since anti tank rounds in SDC games do 1d6x100 about an average guess). Given that a cowboy hat can have more health than the average tank in today's time (again check rifts old west) it tee's them off.

Actually, the average Vietnam era tank has up to 1200 SDC.
Modern tanks would have even more.

And as a writer I hate MDC because of how it limits a character, you cannot grow in rifts like in other Rpg's. A hardened warrior in the rifts world gets 1d6 useless points a round and a few combat bonus' (most of which are pointless who cares if you can kick something harder in the mdc world). Hince not wanting to play a normal character in the game, I want my levels to matter and not just be slow growth. (only reason no psi or mage is thats what I normaly play).

That's not a problem with MDC; it's just the way the Palladium system works. Characters are front-loaded; for the most part a 5th level character isn't much more powerful than a 1st level character with the same gear.
The exceptions would be mages and anybody else with any powers that inflict more damage per level, but again, that's not a problem with MDC.

Call me crazy but being stuck with the same amount of health, and same amount of fire power at level one that I have at level 15 just seems weird. Even if the game doesn't focus on combat I like it to become new after a few levels, and by new I'm not talking new stuff.

You're not stuck with the same amount of health and firepower at level one that you have at 15.
Not unless you have a poor GM, and even then there's still going to be some difference.

[Killer Cyborg]

Since I cannot directly figure out the quoting system on this forum I'll refute the thing using points.

1. Even still a single point of damage given by a mega damage thing will send a person Into a coma by the rules of the system.

Unless they have over 100 SDC/HP.

Also I'm not looking to nitpick everything in my games. Its just more common than not if some one is shot with most anything and they survive Its not because it was a dead on hit.

MDC energy pistols are described as leaving holes the size of volleyballs.
I think that would be pretty fatal.

Also take for instance the Laser gun's in the game. They would go strait through anything they hit, strait line. That would make holes about the size of a quarter on a person, with no tissue tearing or even bleeding. While that would hurt and probably take a person down it wouldn't kill them outright, even if it hit in major area's (most of the leg, torso, arms, ect), and they would live with medical treatment since there would be very little to no bleeding.

There have been many arguments here about just what exactly the effects would be from a laser that powerful. One argument is that the instantly vaporized flesh would cause mini-explosions that would have devastating effects.

Personally, this is one of those areas where I don't know what the effects would be, and I don't really care, because it gets the point across (Don't Get Shot), and that's all I really need from the simulation.

2: If the average tank have that much SDC then why is it that the weapon's made to kill them in a single shot cannot?

Because "anti-tank" weapons aren't really that good.

Case in point the LAW anti-tank weapon which deals 1d6x100 SDC?

Actually, the writers apparently realized that this was far too much damage and nerfed them back down (sort of) to 1d6x10 SDC.
(They now also list a "mega-damage LAW" that does 1d6 MD, but that wouldn't be what exists today).
LAWs aren't actually effective against tanks. They might do some damage, but it's not a tank-killing weapon.

which on an average roll (or the average amount needed to take out its target since the law does take out tanks in one hit) is 400 MDC? (either the weapon is too weak or tanks are too strong). Because the other anti-tank weapon in the game the recoiless rifle does only 1d10x100 SDC

Which, on a good hit, could take out a tank.
Which is about accurate, from what I understand.
Again, usually not one-shot tank killers.

3: I disagree with you. Characters in SDC settings are very different between levels as long as they are made well and with forethought (not just mages/Psi's either). My Hero's Unlimited character is far better at level 5 than level 1 and he is a mutant, and where the other characters in my group none of them being mages and only one psionic, and the same goes for my old TMNT characters, my old ninja and super-spies pc's, even my old system failure ones. Its in rifts and other MDC power armor games from palladium that makes character growth stagnate. Even with one of my favorite games Robotech the character growth is slow, if not nothing but finding new gear.

Your HU character has obviously picked some of the powers that increase as you level up. A lot of powers don't, though.
TMNT characters don't gain anything more in leveling up than Rifts characters do. They get more HTH bonuses, more skills, and more HP, just like Rifts characters. Same with the rest of the SDC games.

Except Ninjas & Superspies, where the Martial Arts provide for fairly steady and interesting character growth throughout.

Of course, if you let Rifts characters take N&S martial arts, then your Rifts characters will share the same benefits.
This is also true of HU super powers on Rifts Earth.

D: I say same amount of health and firepower because there is a limited starting selection, and with a bit of luck and choice picks you can have the best at the start. Example with a Glitterboy character are you ever going to get better than your suit or boom gun?

Probably not.
But you will get to be a lot better with your suit and boom gun.
More attacks, more combat bonuses.

With a Borg there isn't much more MDC than your heavy armor, and the list goes on.

Right.
This is what I mean by "front-loaded".
Is a HU cyborg somehow more upgradable than a Rifts Borg?
Not that I can see.
MDC isn't the issue; it's that you don't like front-loaded games.

Your hp and things you find (unless you own every single source book and then again with some characters it doesn't matter) Doesn't change nearly as much as in SDC systems, nor do they matter much. In rifts I really don't care what I roll for hp, and I don't think many PC's or even GMs do.

Personally, I do.
Because:
1. Not every combat is Mega-damage in our games. We sometimes get out of our armor for various reasons.
2. It's quite possible to take SDC damage while in MDC armor.
3. A character with enough Hit Points/SDC can end up surviving an extra point of mega-damage, and while that might not matter, it just might.
And it has; I've had a number of characters who were saved from death by having a lot of HP/SDC.
(We don't use the GI-Joe rule)
4. There are MDC creatures that increase their MDC as they level up, which means that MDC itself still isn't the problem.

Thats why I'm having such a hard time making a character though, the robot I just rolled is really a neat little guy and will grow very well with new programs, upgrades, and new skills (and starts very very strong) I'm pretty happy with him, but I made him with HU and converted him to Rifts, and now I'm worried that he will overshadow the rest of the party because he will develop so very well unlike the other non-mage/psionics.

How are HU bots more upgradable than Rifts bots?
Did I miss the part where they do more damage per level? Or where they get to roll for more Hit Points per level?

[Talavar]

The medical guys say that they don't like it because of the irony of it. A superheated blast of plasma would not kill a human if it hit them on the hand, or graze against their body. A "vibro" blade wouldn't kill a man if his finger or cheek got cut. Thats why the fact a graze does instant death (a single point does 100 and a graze is a point).

Well, here is where common sense has to intersect with game rules. If you get shot with a plasma rifle in the arm, well, that arm is probably gone, but it is survivable.

And as a writer I hate MDC because of how it limits a character, you cannot grow in rifts like in other Rpg's. A hardened warrior in the rifts world gets 1d6 useless points a round and a few combat bonus' (most of which are pointless who cares if you can kick something harder in the mdc world). Hince not wanting to play a normal character in the game, I want my levels to matter and not just be slow growth. (only reason no psi or mage is thats what I normaly play).
Call me crazy but being stuck with the same amount of health, and same amount of fire power at level one that I have at level 15 just seems weird. Even if the game doesn't focus on combat I like it to become new after a few levels, and by new I'm not talking new stuff.

In the case of most classes, if at level 15 you still are only using your starting equipment, you have an unreasonably cruel GM; conversely, if your starting equipment is the best equipment, you have an unreasonably generous GM.

Now, more HPs per level in MDC fighting are pretty useless, but leveling up also gets you plusses to strike with weapons and in hand to hand fighting, more attacks/actions per round, and access to more skills. Depending on the class a character could learn more weapon proficiencies, vehicle piloting skills, or even power armour piloting at a point later than character creation, all of which significantly increase and alter a character's abilities in combat.

[Killer Cyborg]

Its not how my gms act its how the rules them self are presented. You can start out with the best in the game (again unless you own all the source books) at lv one.

You can also NOT start that way.
Which is up to the GM and the players.

And when it comes to HU characters they are more upgradeable because of the various extra options that are not presented in the core books. Take in point a robot, they get a new skill at every level, and also they can be more "tricked-out" using the HU options (again unless those same options are in a Rifts sourcebook).

A lot of them, if not all of them, are in the Rifts sourcebook.
And even if they're not, that's not a problem with MDC; it's just lack of support.

I've heard this rare thing about people getting out of their armor, and I would call those people crazy. If i lived in a world where there where md flies I wouldn't get out of my armor.

Only there aren't actually MDC flies (well, there are on Mars, but you can hear them coming).

It has also been argued that MD is rare, or that there are reason's for having hp, I still don't see them.

MDC is supposed to be rare.
Just like super powers are rare in HU.
Just like master martial artists are rare in N&S.
Just like tornados are rare in the real world.

Having over 100 hp/sdc is a feat in an of itself, not to mention that 2 damage will then kill you (it goes on).

Not much of a feat, not for a decent Man-At-Arms class.

If md was actually rare in the world Then I would enjoy it more, or if MD was handled more like Warhammer 40k handles its high powered armor I could see it.

As we've pointed out, it IS supposed to be rare.
If you're not playing it that way, then there's an easy fix...
Just start playing it that way.

Also the "anti-tank" weapons do take out most takes on an average basis, just not the US heavy tanks.

Not the weapons presented in the books, no.

In regards to HU characters growing more, that is because their powers grow with them. Its a rare thing to create a stagnate HU character as a quasi well rolled one will have at least one power that develops.

Some of the powers grow with them, some don't.
It's pretty easy to make a character with powers that don't grow as he levels up.

And, as pointed out, this isn't a problem with Mega-Damage.
Take a HU character with Energy Expulsion in to Rifts, and he'll get more powerful as he levels up, just like on HU Earth.

I guess I'm too much of a humanist in my games, I want humans to stand a chance against the unspeakable Evil out there.

Same here.
And they do.

I've seen some of the high-end mega baddies and its near impossible for an average party (much less large squads) to even think of coming near them.

That's why there are Long Range missiles.

But I have to question why you're assuming that an average party should be able to take on high-end baddies in the first place.

I really didn't start this thread to create a flame war,

There isn't one.

I just wanted to find a character that grew, was human-like, and didn't have to use items as a crutch. I really didn't think that it would be so near impossible.

It's not impossible; you're describing pretty much EVERY character in Rifts.
They just don't grow to your satisfaction (since you don't want to play a mage or psychic).

So just bring in a HU character, or make a Rifts character with super powers that increase as he levels up.
Problem solved.

[DocS]

The problem is that Charz is NOT the GM...

So most of the 'fixes' suggested, being things that only a GM can do, are completely irrelevant to the problem at hand.

Charz, the first difficulty is that you've not really fleshed out what the campaign is like, or what other players are around. If everyone else is making a power armor pilot, then it's kind of self-centered to make a Rogue Scholar and get annoyed when the GM runs a combat heavy campaign. Make a character that works with the campaign and with the other characters.

If the GM refuses to tell you enough information to do that, then run. The GM is terrible.

However, the skill system, being so bad, I'd say most skill-based characters are near-unplayable (we're talking Doctors who can only remove an appendix 75% of the time). The only skill class I've found that has percentages high enough to depend on is the Robot. They also have MDC, can have extremely high stats, which makes them extremely survivable if combats do happen.

Make him human looking, and voila, he can also wear armor like anyone else. Yes, he can't heal as easily when damaged (but he can have Robot mechanics at 94%, which means self-repair is very very possible), and a little damage to your MD body is vastly prefferrable to the squashing that happens if you're a human.

[Killer Cyborg]

The problem is that Charz is NOT the GM...

So most of the 'fixes' suggested, being things that only a GM can do, are completely irrelevant to the problem at hand.

Fair enough.

Although he can still talk to the GM, and address the root problems.

Charz, the first difficulty is that you've not really fleshed out what the campaign is like, or what other players are around. If everyone else is making a power armor pilot, then it's kind of self-centered to make a Rogue Scholar and get annoyed when the GM runs a combat heavy campaign. Make a character that works with the campaign and with the other characters.

Yup.
Unless he makes a Rogue Scholar with super powers.

If the GM refuses to tell you enough information to do that, then run. The GM is terrible.

Spot on, old bean.

However, the skill system, being so bad, I'd say most skill-based characters are near-unplayable (we're talking Doctors who can only remove an appendix 75% of the time). The only skill class I've found that has percentages high enough to depend on is the Robot. They also have MDC, can have extremely high stats, which makes them extremely survivable if combats do happen.

You don't roll a skill check every time you use the skill, only when attempting something particularly difficult.
For a trained surgeon in a properly equipped and properly staffed hospital, removing an appendix is NOT particularly difficult.

Make him human looking, and voila, he can also wear armor like anyone else. Yes, he can't heal as easily when damaged (but he can have Robot mechanics at 94%, which means self-repair is very very possible), and a little damage to your MD body is vastly prefferrable to the squashing that happens if you're a human.

Agreed.
Although you'll still need materials for the repairs, and those can be tough to come by.

[DocS]

You don't roll a skill check every time you use the skill, only when attempting something particularly difficult.
For a trained surgeon in a properly equipped and properly staffed hospital, removing an appendix is NOT particularly difficult.

The vast majority of rifts GM's would have the removal of an appendix require a surgery check. Moreover, the book gives absolutely no guidelines as to when or when not to roll a check, the rules are written as if a check is needed every time a skill is used (see 'backflip). The medical skills are in particularly written this way. They even separate 'diagnosis' and 'treatment' into two separate skill checks.

See RMB page 23, when the task is 'unusually difficult', penalties are given, indicating that skills are supposed to be rolled every time, adverse conditions are to be given penalties (If the skills were only meant to be rolled under adverse conditions, additional provisos would be there on page 23).

I agree with you, played this way, skills stink. But the rules are written this way. Most GM's play them this way. It's fair to say that Charz's GM will play it this way.

Agreed.
Although you'll still need materials for the repairs, and those can be tough to come by.

No more difficult than finding materials to repair armor. In fact, arguably much less difficult since the best armor repair skill a human can have is roughly 45% (at first level) , while the robot can self-repair with a skill of 94%. If your previous skill interpretation is used, that means the rolls don't have to be made at all under ideal conditions, and that even under adverse conditions (since skill rolling only is needed then), the robot has a 94% probability.

Did I mention that that level of proficiency in robot mechanics is equal to a 12th level Operator? No kiddin! Now I would say that a 12th level operator is the type of guy who can build a UAR-1 from scrap metal and E-clips. The robot's skill level at this is so high, that its percentages would go *down* if you gave it telemechanics!

And are those materials *really* tough to come by? If fighting SDC foes, yes, the materials would be very difficult to come by, but then they wouldn't be needed either. If attacked by gargoyles, I agree, everyone is out of luck. However, if attacked by any sort of technological MD foe (from Dogpack to Mechanoids), the remains should be more than scavangable, especially by someone with absurdly high skill percentages.

Although, if the robot wanted to repair himself using alien materials like xiticix chitin, the rules allow for that. It would be a -40%, not too bad when you're starting at 94%.

[DocS]

Also give the robot Weapons engineer at 94%, then the robot can repair *Everyone* at 94%!

And The Operator may as well stay home.

[Killer Cyborg]

You don't roll a skill check every time you use the skill, only when attempting something particularly difficult.
For a trained surgeon in a properly equipped and properly staffed hospital, removing an appendix is NOT particularly difficult.

The vast majority of rifts GM's would have the removal of an appendix require a surgery check.

If the vast majority of Rifts GMs jumped off a bridge, would you?

Moreover, the book gives absolutely no guidelines as to when or when not to roll a check, the rules are written as if a check is needed every time a skill is used (see 'backflip). The medical skills are in particularly written this way. They even separate 'diagnosis' and 'treatment' into two separate skill checks.

You're just looking in the wrong book.
One of the problems with Palladium is that they rely far too much on the "common sense" of the reader to decypher their intent, even with basic aspects of the rules.

Collected MOPs, p. 115

Question: How do you roll against one of your skills to find out if it succeeded or not? I am currently playing with a character appropriately named the Night Beast. Night Beast has a 49% in Pilot, Automobile. How do I know if he was able to drive the car or crash it?
Answer: The simple answer is that you roll a percentile. A result under your skill level (1-49) means your character succeeds at whatever is being attempted.. Roling a number above the skill (in this case, 50-00) means that the attempt failed.
However, you don't roll all the time. You only roll when the character is facing some kind of challenge or difficulty. For example, let's say that Night Beast is planning to drive a car he's never driven before, say the latest luxury car from Detroit.
There are two possible situations.
In the first, the car is parked in an empty parking lot on a Sunday evening, he's got all the time in the world, and he can take a few minutes getting used to the controls, and then test driving the car around the parking lot. Does he have to roll? No! He already knows pilot, automobile, so he just has to spend a minute or two to get a feel for that particular car. Many cars have a different feel to them. If you're used to driving a big car, jeep, truck or van, there is a moment of disorientation when one drives a smaller care because the vehicle is much smaller and lower to the ground.
However, what if Night Beast is in hot pursuit of some bank robbers? He runs out of the bank and spots a friend of his. "Here, take my car," says the friend, tossing Beastie the keys. Same new luxury car, but now Night Beast is trying to operate a totally strange vehicle in a big hurry. In this case he might need to roll to start the car, another roll to drive it successfully, and perhaps a few more rolls during the pursuit, particularly when trying to make a special move, like a sudden turn.
Likewise, if Night Beast is driving his usual vehicle, in normal traffic, at regular speeds, he will never have to roll against his skill.. on the other hand, if he starts driving in a dangerous manner, or makes an evasive action, or if he has to avoid an unexpected hazard (see "Control Rolls," page 19 of Road Hogs), then you'll need to roll against the skill.

See RMB page 23, when the task is 'unusually difficult', penalties are given, indicating that skills are supposed to be rolled every time, adverse conditions are to be given penalties (If the skills were only meant to be rolled under adverse conditions, additional provisos would be there on page 23).

No, it implies that every time a situation is "difficult", you roll the dice.
Every time it is "unusually difficult", you impose penalties.

I agree with you, played this way, skills stink. But the rules are written this way. Most GM's play them this way. It's fair to say that Charz's GM will play it this way.

Then Charz's GM will be wrong.
This is one of those cases where, although I certainly agree that Palladium should have spent a LOT more time and effort explaining the rules in the main book, the GMs have two basic options:
1. Interpret the rules in such a way that the rules don't make sense, then complain about how the rules don't make sense.
2. Interpret the rules in such a way that the rules DO make sense, and complain about how Palladium needs to be a lot clearer in their rules.

Agreed.
Although you'll still need materials for the repairs, and those can be tough to come by.

No more difficult than finding materials to repair armor. In fact, arguably much less difficult since the best armor repair skill a human can have is roughly 45% (at first level) , while the robot can self-repair with a skill of 94%. If your previous skill interpretation is used, that means the rolls don't have to be made at all under ideal conditions, and that even under adverse conditions (since skill rolling only is needed then), the robot has a 94% probability.

Hm.
This is pretty true.
If you're in a shop that's fully equipped to repair robots, and that has the right parts, then neither would have to roll.
If you're out in the boonies with the right parts, but improper tools, then you'd have to roll. The robot would have a clear edge.
If you've got the right tools, but you have the wrong parts, then you'd have to roll. The robot would have a clear edge here too; his skill would help him improvise parts a lot better than the human.
But if you're in the middle of the woods, with no tools and no electric/mechanical parts, then both are still screwed.

Did I mention that that level of proficiency in robot mechanics is equal to a 12th level Operator? No kiddin! Now I would say that a 12th level operator is the type of guy who can build a UAR-1 from scrap metal and E-clips. The robot's skill level at this is so high, that its percentages would go *down* if you gave it telemechanics!

I would say that a 12th level operator is the type of guy who can build a UAR-1 from UAR-1 parts, if he has the right tools (or something close enough to improvise with).
They're mechanics, not miracle-workers.

And are those materials *really* tough to come by? If fighting SDC foes, yes, the materials would be very difficult to come by, but then they wouldn't be needed either. If attacked by gargoyles, I agree, everyone is out of luck. However, if attacked by any sort of technological MD foe (from Dogpack to Mechanoids), the remains should be more than scavangable, especially by someone with absurdly high skill percentages.

You can't turn scrap MDC armor into servo-motors or electric relays.
All you can do is, possibly, use it to repair any armor on the robot.

Although, if the robot wanted to repair himself using alien materials like xiticix chitin, the rules allow for that. It would be a -40%, not too bad when you're starting at 94%.

Trying to build a mechanical part would be pretty tough to do with chitin.
I suppose that with the right tools, like a full machine-shop, you could grind a piece of chitin down into a gear, if you found a piece that was flat enough and/or the right size, but it'd be next to impossible to do if you're just whittling it down with a vibro-knife or something.
And electronic components would be effectively impossible.
Robots aren't golems; they're not solid MDC armor.

[DocS]

If the vast majority of Rifts GMs jumped off a bridge, would you?

In my own game, no, however when giving advice to players in other games, I would assume their GM's would be bridge jumpers, especially when the rules are written that way. It's best to advice the player to play with the GM he *has*, rather then the GM you think he *should* have.

You're just looking in the wrong book.

The main Rulebook is exactly the right book. It's the only book you can assume every GM has and is working from.

One of the problems with Palladium is that they rely far too much on the "common sense" of the reader to decypher their intent, even with basic aspects of the rules.

Well, either that or the rules are non-sensical and poorly written. "Common sense" dictates that whenever a doctor tries to diagnose an illness, he rolls a diagnosis check and voila, he does so. The only problem with it is a close look at the percentages, something most people don't look too closely at.

Collected MOPs, p. 115
However, you don't roll all the time. You only roll when the character is facing some kind of challenge or difficulty.

Again, even here, by your interpretation, SINCE body fixers do not walk around with an entourage of lab techs, medical staff, and full medical suite, every single medical task they would do would be 'in the field' as it were, and thus require a skill check (EVERY TIME).

Similarly, the rogue scientist doesn't walk around with a full suite of chemical instrumentation, he would have to roll his chemistry skill (EVERY TIME).

And what's MOP? Whatever it is, can't assume every GM has it or even access to it. RMB, however.


Even in the repair case, you're making almost every possible situation 'unusually difficult' with the exception of 'the character is trying to repair a UAR-1, he's in a fully functional UAR-1 factory, and has a full crew of folks to work for him. As this is unlikely, again, all repairs are done in conditions more adverse to this....... requiring a roll... *every time*. The robot doesn't just have an 'edge', the robot DOMINATES.

Then Charz's GM will be wrong.

It's the GM he's got, and it's a GM thing that most GM's do. See previous point, we're not talking to Charz's GM, we're talking to Charz, and he's gotta work with the GM he's got. Convincing a GM he's 'wrong' about something... they hate that.

I would say that a 12th level operator is the type of guy who can build a UAR-1 from UAR-1 parts, if he has the right tools (or something close enough to improvise with).
They're mechanics, not miracle-workers.

Build a UAR-1, from UAR-1 parts, given the right tools.....And you need a 12th level operator to make this work!? 12th!?

You can't turn scrap MDC armor into servo-motors or electric relays.
All you can do is, possibly, use it to repair any armor on the robot.

Of course you can, it's just that the less analogous the part, the larger the penalty to the *skill roll*. That's why the skill percentage is there. Using a SAMAS servomotor to go into a SAMAS (no roll needed), SAMAS servomotor into non-SAMAS (skill roll). Taking two damaged SAMAS servomotors, stripping them down to repair another robot, -5. Jury-rigging a servomotor from a bunch of spare parts.... -10. Doing so using alien technology (this is one of the few modifiers explicitly given in the book, and it's a doozy) -40%.

And you've played robots before, you know that the vast vast vast majority of repairs would be repairs to the armor.

Trying to build a mechanical part would be pretty tough to do with chitin.
I suppose that with the right tools, like a full machine-shop, you could grind a piece of chitin down into a gear, if you found a piece that was flat enough and/or the right size, but it'd be next to impossible to do if you're just whittling it down with a vibro-knife or something.
And electronic components would be effectively impossible.
Robots aren't golems; they're not solid MDC armorcc

This is the biggest problem in 'common sense' skill use, you as the GM think you know what is required for robot repair. However, as high-tech battlerobots don't exist, no one has that knowledge of what the 'right' tools and the 'right' materials. Lemme tell ya a story of how this would look.

I have a bachelors in Chemistry. After college, a friend of mine (Al) calls me up and says "Can you identify a chemical for me?". I am literally at my Mom's house, in the kitchen. I say to him "Cmon, you want me to Identify this thing? I'd need tools, I'd need instruments! I'm sitting in a kitchen here!"

He cajoles me for a bit, and I tell him to bring the stuff over. He tells me it's a corrosive mixture used to clean copper. This thrills me to no end, now I can't even pour the stuff out since it dissolves metals and God knows what, it's also dangerous so if I get it on my skin I'll burn myself. And it's a MIXTURE.... so there's multiple things in that bottle!

He shows up, it's in a dark brown bottle. I can't even *see* the stuff!

I'm in the foyer of my Mom's condo, no tools, no instruments, I'm in a T-shirt and blue-jeans. I take the bottle, look at my friend and say, "Ok Al, here goes, this is the *only* thing I know to do here", at which point I open the bottle, lighly wave my hand over the top so I can get a sense of the smell......

I then look at him and say "Al.... is this stuff.... a bright orange liquid?"

Al looks shocked, "Yes!" he says.

"3 parts nitric acid, 1 part hydrochloric," I say to him, "if you make a million off this, I want 20 percent. Have a nice day"

From Al's perspective, I was a miracle worker.

From my persepctive, I recognized the odor as a material we used to clean things in my old chem lab. Then I thought, "Well, that stuff we use in the lab *would* clean copper!", so then I asked the simple question to confirm that it was what I thought it was (this solution has a very characteristic orange color). And voila.

So no, a 12th level operator would not be a miracle worker, but he would certainly *look* like a miracle worker to anyone who's not an expert in Robot mechanics (which would be the vast majority of GM's). When you have a degree in robot mechanics, then you can categorically say when and where mr 94% shouldn't even bother rolling, but until then, let him roll, give a penalty where you think appropriate, and realize that -40% is about the biggest skill penalty around (If the robot wants to exchange his nuclear power for a mechanoid power crystal.... it's a textbook -40).

An operator trapped in a junkyard, have him make his roll at -20 to build a functional MDC battlerobot from scratch. (first level operator, not good odds. 12th level operator or robot... no problemo)

trapped in an elementary school, -50% (first level operator, no chance, by 12th level, he's got a lot of 'MacGuyver' action going on, which is the way it should be).

Trapped in candyland, -90% (almost no one has any shot, but by 12-14th level, the operator is figuring a thing or two)

[Killer Cyborg]

If the vast majority of Rifts GMs jumped off a bridge, would you?

In my own game, no, however when giving advice to players in other games, I would assume their GM's would be bridge jumpers, especially when the rules are written that way. It's best to advice the player to play with the GM he *has*, rather then the GM you think he *should* have.

I think the best advice is to tell them NOT to jump off the bridge.

You're just looking in the wrong book.

The main Rulebook is exactly the right book. It's the only book you can assume every GM has and is working from.

It's not the book with the answers you're looking for, therefore it's the wrong book.

One of the problems with Palladium is that they rely far too much on the "common sense" of the reader to decypher their intent, even with basic aspects of the rules.

Well, either that or the rules are non-sensical and poorly written. "Common sense" dictates that whenever a doctor tries to diagnose an illness, he rolls a diagnosis check and voila, he does so. The only problem with it is a close look at the percentages, something most people don't look too closely at.

The problem is that "Common Sense" means different things to different people.

Collected MOPs, p. 115
However, you don't roll all the time. You only roll when the character is facing some kind of challenge or difficulty.

Again, even here, by your interpretation, SINCE body fixers do not walk around with an entourage of lab techs, medical staff, and full medical suite, every single medical task they would do would be 'in the field' as it were, and thus require a skill check (EVERY TIME).

I don't make any assumptions about the conditions of a campaign.
We've had campaigns where the party had access to a mobile lab, or was based in a specific city where they had access to a full lab, and we've had campaigns where things got pretty medieval.
So no, not every time.

Similarly, the rogue scientist doesn't walk around with a full suite of chemical instrumentation, he would have to roll his chemistry skill (EVERY TIME).

See above.

And what's MOP?

The Magic of Palladium, a kind of pre-cursor to the Rifter, where (among other things) the staff would answer questions people had about the rules.
It's now available all bound into one book.

Whatever it is, can't assume every GM has it or even access to it. RMB, however.

I don't assume everybody has access to it.
These days I don't even assume everybody has RMB.
But whether or not the people have the books does not mean that the rules don't exist.

Even in the repair case, you're making almost every possible situation 'unusually difficult' with the exception of 'the character is trying to repair a UAR-1, he's in a fully functional UAR-1 factory, and has a full crew of folks to work for him. As this is unlikely, again, all repairs are done in conditions more adverse to this....... requiring a roll... *every time*. The robot doesn't just have an 'edge', the robot DOMINATES.

That would depend on what repairs are needed.
Patch repairs to armor are pretty easy to do in the field, but if you're replacing a limb or other important components, yeah, you'd need a fully prepared garage of some sort.
If you, as a GM, for some bizarre reason, want to decide that every repair to a robot needs a full factory, and that every cut on the finger needs a fully equipped hospital, that's your perogative.
But don't assume that everybody else plays the same way.

Then Charz's GM will be wrong.

It's the GM he's got, and it's a GM thing that most GM's do.

Really?
Let's see the source for that.

See previous point, we're not talking to Charz's GM, we're talking to Charz, and he's gotta work with the GM he's got.

No, he doesn't. He can find a new GM or quit gaming.
Or, just for the hell of it, point out the stuff the GM has wrong, and ask the GM to adjust his style.

Convincing a GM he's 'wrong' about something... they hate that.

God forbid we bruise the GM's inner child by pointing out the facts.

I would say that a 12th level operator is the type of guy who can build a UAR-1 from UAR-1 parts, if he has the right tools (or something close enough to improvise with).
They're mechanics, not miracle-workers.

Build a UAR-1, from UAR-1 parts, given the right tools.....And you need a 12th level operator to make this work!? 12th!?

No.
I just said that a 12th level operator could do it, not that they were the only ones who could.

You can't turn scrap MDC armor into servo-motors or electric relays.
All you can do is, possibly, use it to repair any armor on the robot.

Of course you can, it's just that the less analogous the part, the larger the penalty to the *skill roll*. That's why the skill percentage is there. Using a SAMAS servomotor to go into a SAMAS (no roll needed), SAMAS servomotor into non-SAMAS (skill roll). Taking two damaged SAMAS servomotors, stripping them down to repair another robot, -5. Jury-rigging a servomotor from a bunch of spare parts.... -10. Doing so using alien technology (this is one of the few modifiers explicitly given in the book, and it's a doozy) -40%.

And using a shard of MDC scrap from Juicer Plate armor to replace a servo-motor or electric relay is freakin' impossible.
Which is all I was saying, which is why I said "armor", not "power armor".

But since we're on the subject, even converting and juryrigging servomotors and such from a suit of power armor to a robot might well be impossible.

And you've played robots before, you know that the vast vast vast majority of repairs would be repairs to the armor.

I'm not sure where you get that idea.
That's like saying the vast majority of damage to human characters is to their skin.

Trying to build a mechanical part would be pretty tough to do with chitin.
I suppose that with the right tools, like a full machine-shop, you could grind a piece of chitin down into a gear, if you found a piece that was flat enough and/or the right size, but it'd be next to impossible to do if you're just whittling it down with a vibro-knife or something.
And electronic components would be effectively impossible.
Robots aren't golems; they're not solid MDC armor

This is the biggest problem in 'common sense' skill use, you as the GM think you know what is required for robot repair. However, as high-tech battlerobots don't exist, no one has that knowledge of what the 'right' tools and the 'right' materials. Lemme tell ya a story of how this would look.

I have a bachelors in Chemistry. After college, a friend of mine (Al) calls me up and says "Can you identify a chemical for me?". I am literally at my Mom's house, in the kitchen. I say to him "Cmon, you want me to Identify this thing? I'd need tools, I'd need instruments! I'm sitting in a kitchen here!"

He cajoles me for a bit, and I tell him to bring the stuff over. He tells me it's a corrosive mixture used to clean copper. This thrills me to no end, now I can't even pour the stuff out since it dissolves metals and God knows what, it's also dangerous so if I get it on my skin I'll burn myself. And it's a MIXTURE.... so there's multiple things in that bottle!

He shows up, it's in a dark brown bottle. I can't even *see* the stuff!

I'm in the foyer of my Mom's condo, no tools, no instruments, I'm in a T-shirt and blue-jeans. I take the bottle, look at my friend and say, "Ok Al, here goes, this is the *only* thing I know to do here", at which point I open the bottle, lighly wave my hand over the top so I can get a sense of the smell......

I then look at him and say "Al.... is this stuff.... a bright orange liquid?"

Al looks shocked, "Yes!" he says.

"3 parts nitric acid, 1 part hydrochloric," I say to him, "if you make a million off this, I want 20 percent. Have a nice day"

From Al's perspective, I was a miracle worker.

From my persepctive, I recognized the odor as a material we used to clean things in my old chem lab. Then I thought, "Well, that stuff we use in the lab *would* clean copper!", so then I asked the simple question to confirm that it was what I thought it was (this solution has a very characteristic orange color). And voila.

So no, a 12th level operator would not be a miracle worker, but he would certainly *look* like a miracle worker to anyone who's not an expert in Robot mechanics (which would be the vast majority of GM's). When you have a degree in robot mechanics, then you can categorically say when and where mr 94% shouldn't even bother rolling, but until then, let him roll, give a penalty where you think appropriate, and realize that -40% is about the biggest skill penalty around (If the robot wants to exchange his nuclear power for a mechanoid power crystal.... it's a textbook -40).

An operator trapped in a junkyard, have him make his roll at -20 to build a functional MDC battlerobot from scratch. (first level operator, not good odds. 12th level operator or robot... no problemo)

trapped in an elementary school, -50% (first level operator, no chance, by 12th level, he's got a lot of 'MacGuyver' action going on, which is the way it should be).

Trapped in candyland, -90% (almost no one has any shot, but by 12-14th level, the operator is figuring a thing or two)

I agree with the gist of your overall view here, but we take it two very different places.
An operator trapped in a junkyard couldn't make a functional MDC robot from scratch.
Although he might well be able to cobble something together from the parts of other robots, assuming that there are plenty of robot parts in the junkyard.

And none of that means that you can use xiticix chitin to replace the electronic or mechanical parts of a robot.

[DocS]

I think the best advice is to tell them NOT to jump off the bridge.

Not when they're not the one being spoken to.

It's not the book with the answers you're looking for, therefore it's the wrong book.

The main rulebook has the answer, it's just not the answer you like.

The problem is that "Common Sense" means different things to different people.

Correct, so perhaps such nebulous terms shouldn't be used. 'Common sense' is a term so nebulous that it's useless. Please remember this in any futures mentions of 'common sense'.

I don't make any assumptions about the conditions of a campaign.

If someone doesn'tt want to make any assumptions....

And they they don't probe the campaign to clear up the background information....

Then they can't make any conclusions either.

I don't assume everybody has access to it.
These days I don't even assume everybody has RMB.
But whether or not the people have the books does not mean that the rules don't exist.

It does mean asking folks to take something on faith rather than whats written in the books they do have, this goes double when mentioning books they've not even heard of.

Goes triple when it's not even a Rifts book. (It's in the 'special items' section of the catalog, with the bumper stickers and shot glasses)

Goes quadruple when it's a nostalgia compilation of articles, the newest of which was written over 15 years ago

Goes Quintuple when Rifts has gone through many many printings, but this ''clarification' has not been included. Did they do anything to clean this up in RUE? What does RUE say about skill use? I don't have that book, but my money says that RUE is written, like RMB, with the idea that skills are to be rolled about every time.

That would depend on what repairs are needed.
Patch repairs to armor are pretty easy to do in the field, but if you're replacing a limb or other important components, yeah, you'd need a fully prepared garage of some sort.

And the basis behind this is? The *character* has skill in robot mechanics. The GM does not.

If a GM was telling us what kinds of brain surgery is 'easy to do' but what kinds you'd need 'a fully functioning surgical facility' to do, I would ask him where he got his M.D. And when he said he didn't have one, I would immediately (and rightfully) assume that he didn't know what he was talking about.

Why does this change when talking about 40 foot tall battlerobots or hyper-strong Mega-damage armor alloys?

(on skill use)
Let's see the source for that.

I give a 94% chance of myself being correct on this one. This leaves 6% otherwise.

No, he doesn't. He can find a new GM or quit gaming.
Or, just for the hell of it, point out the stuff the GM has wrong, and ask the GM to adjust his style.

And all three are drastic measures. The last measure is the least drastic, but subject to the "GM has the final say", at which point let the matter drop. I have left parties for bad GM'ing, but never for an issue as small as "I didn't like how the skill use was done", especially not when the skill use was done "by the book" (RMB).

God forbid we bruise the GM's inner child by pointing out the facts.

Depends, shoul Charz mention the possibilty of altering the interpretation once? Then lets it drop no matter what the GM says? (I may suggest that, but I also don't give it high chance of success. However, low investment, low risk).

Or should Charz argue with the GM until the GM either changes his tune (based on "This guy on the message boards memory of articles reprinted from 15 years ago"), or kicks Charz out of the game?

No.
I just said that a 12th level operator could do it, not that they were the only ones who could.

That was silly then, now wasn't it? The statement was utterly meaningless. It may as well have said "I think a 12th level operator is the kind of guy who can brush his teeth". Technically true, but functionally useless.

Lets try again, is there something you *would* need a 12th level operator to do?

And using a shard of MDC scrap from Juicer Plate armor to replace a servo-motor or electric relay is freakin' impossible.
Which is all I was saying, which is why I said "armor", not "power armor".

And the basis behind this is..... Does the GM have enough personal background in robot mechanics to declare this absolutely? Or is he reasonable enough to have insufficient materials merely me a penalty to the skill roll?

But since we're on the subject, even converting and juryrigging servomotors and such from a suit of power armor to a robot might well be impossible.

So lemme get this straight. A guy with 94% robot mechanics (We'll make him 12th level operator). Wants to jury-rig a servo motor from a SAMAS to a robot.....

And he's not even allowed a SKILL CHECK!?

I'm not sure where you get that idea.
That's like saying the vast majority of damage to human characters is to their skin.

Correct, I'm asking you, when you *did* play the robot (you've said you played them), where was the vast majority of your damage? When you *did* need repairs, what kind of repairs *did* you need? OR if it wasn't you playing the robot, tell me about the guy who did.

It's the sort of concrete, "don't talk in theory, talk about what actually happenned... and not just one case, but the whole experience" that should ideally lead to an understanding of actually *what* happens, rather than what can happen in theory. Cuz, I'm scratching my head, nowhere in any of the rules are servomotors mentioned, there is no mechanism by which a robot can have his servomotor damaged, and no mention that robots even *have* servomotors, and yet you keep bringing them up. So, I'm trying to limit things to the instances that happen in the vast majority of game occurrences.

I agree with the gist of your overall view here, but we take it two very different places.
An operator trapped in a junkyard couldn't make a functional MDC robot from scratch.
Although he might well be able to cobble something together from the parts of other robots, assuming that there are plenty of robot parts in the junkyard.

And none of that means that you can use xiticix chitin to replace the electronic or mechanical parts of a robot.

Again, all of this is you categorically declaring what can and can't be used for parts. If you were a PhD in Robotics and a PhD in xtra-terrestrial xeno-biology, then you can say that it's categorically impossible to use xiticix chitin to repair robots, or that you can't whittle metals with a vibro-knife.

The 'Gist' is this, the 12th Operator knows whats possible, but unless the GM happens to himself be an expert in hyper-alloy combat robots, the GM does NOT. But he's gotta make a call in a way that lets the operator do his thing. This is done with penalties.

Unless the GM is the type of guy who watches star trek and says "Jeez! You can't rout the tachyon emmitters through the warp coil array in order to desynergize a neutrino field! Common sense says that what you need is to run tetreyones through the Heisenberg compensators!!"

[Mack]

Don't suppose you fellas would be willing to just let this debate quietly end?

[Killer Cyborg]

I think the best advice is to tell them NOT to jump off the bridge.

Not when they're not the one being spoken to.

???

It's not the book with the answers you're looking for, therefore it's the wrong book.

The main rulebook has the answer, it's just not the answer you like.

I believe I've already addressed your quote from the main book, and pointed out why it doesn't mean what you want it to.

The problem is that "Common Sense" means different things to different people.

Correct, so perhaps such nebulous terms shouldn't be used. 'Common sense' is a term so nebulous that it's useless. Please remember this in any futures mentions of 'common sense'.

Of course.
That's just common sense.

I don't make any assumptions about the conditions of a campaign.

If someone doesn'tt want to make any assumptions....

And they they don't probe the campaign to clear up the background information....

Then they can't make any conclusions either.

And yet I already have.

I don't assume everybody has access to it.
These days I don't even assume everybody has RMB.
But whether or not the people have the books does not mean that the rules don't exist.

It does mean asking folks to take something on faith rather than whats written in the books they do have, this goes double when mentioning books they've not even heard of.

Not my fault you're not up on all the books.
If you only owned the M Encyclopedia, would you get pissy when people brought up the rest of them?

Probably.
But it doesn't mean that you should.

Goes triple when it's not even a Rifts book. (It's in the 'special items' section of the catalog, with the bumper stickers and shot glasses)

It's a book where the staff answers gaming questions.
Which is of interest to those of us who care what the answers are.

Goes quadruple when it's a nostalgia compilation of articles, the newest of which was written over 15 years ago

Meaning that the issue was addressed over 15 years ago, but people still don't get it.

Goes Quintuple when Rifts has gone through many many printings, but this ''clarification' has not been included. Did they do anything to clean this up in RUE? What does RUE say about skill use? I don't have that book, but my money says that RUE is written, like RMB, with the idea that skills are to be rolled about every time.

1. That's not how the RMB is written.
2. RUE doesn't seem to address it at all.

That would depend on what repairs are needed.
Patch repairs to armor are pretty easy to do in the field, but if you're replacing a limb or other important components, yeah, you'd need a fully prepared garage of some sort.

And the basis behind this is? The *character* has skill in robot mechanics. The GM does not.

If you want to ask an imaginary character how to run the game, go for it.
Let me know what he says.

If a GM was telling us what kinds of brain surgery is 'easy to do' but what kinds you'd need 'a fully functioning surgical facility' to do, I would ask him where he got his M.D. And when he said he didn't have one, I would immediately (and rightfully) assume that he didn't know what he was talking about.

And if a character is trying to prowl through an open meadow, wearing a neon suit and ringing a bell, would you say the GM is unqualified to say the guy can't prowl?
Since the GM doesn't have a degree in that sort of thing?

Why does this change when talking about 40 foot tall battlerobots or hyper-strong Mega-damage armor alloys?

It isn't.
The GM gets to decide how difficult surgery and repairs are.
All players get to decide is what their characters attempt to do.
All characters get to decide is nothing, since they're imaginary.

(on skill use)
Let's see the source for that.

I give a 94% chance of myself being correct on this one. This leaves 6% otherwise.

Kind of what I thought: you just made it up.

No, he doesn't. He can find a new GM or quit gaming.
Or, just for the hell of it, point out the stuff the GM has wrong, and ask the GM to adjust his style.

And all three are drastic measures. The last measure is the least drastic, but subject to the "GM has the final say", at which point let the matter drop. I have left parties for bad GM'ing, but never for an issue as small as "I didn't like how the skill use was done", especially not when the skill use was done "by the book" (RMB).

I've already pointed out how you're wrong about the RMB on skills.
You can keep pretending that I haven't, but you're not going to get much out of it.

God forbid we bruise the GM's inner child by pointing out the facts.

Depends, should Charz mention the possibilty of altering the interpretation once? Then lets it drop no matter what the GM says? (I may suggest that, but I also don't give it high chance of success. However, low investment, low risk).

Or should Charz argue with the GM until the GM either changes his tune (based on "This guy on the message boards memory of articles reprinted from 15 years ago"), or kicks Charz out of the game?

Although I don't know him, I'm willing to bet that Charz is able to rationally discuss things with his GM without pansying out after mentioning it once, and without being a constant pain in the GM's neck.
I think he can find a middle ground there.
And if he can't, that's his problem.
I'm not here to teach people social skills.

But while we're one the issue of social skills, I will toss out a bit of freebie advice.
When somebody looks up a passage from a book and takes the time to give a lengthy and exact quote from the book, complete with page number, and you sum it up as: "This guy on the message boards memory of articles reprinted from 15 years ago"
Then you're being pretty rude, and making it clear that you're either not paying attention to the conversation, or that you can't understand it, or that you're deliberately being hostile and condescending in order to stir up trouble.

No.
I just said that a 12th level operator could do it, not that they were the only ones who could.

That was silly then, now wasn't it? The statement was utterly meaningless. It may as well have said "I think a 12th level operator is the kind of guy who can brush his teeth". Technically true, but functionally useless.

The point was more that there's a limitation to what you can do with a skill. They're not magic.
No matter how high your Spinning skill is, you can't spin straw into gold.
And no matter how high your Robot Mechanics skill, you can't build a robot from scratch (lacking the right tools and parts)

Lets try again, is there something you *would* need a 12th level operator to do?

No.

And using a shard of MDC scrap from Juicer Plate armor to replace a servo-motor or electric relay is freakin' impossible.
Which is all I was saying, which is why I said "armor", not "power armor".

And the basis behind this is..... Does the GM have enough personal background in robot mechanics to declare this absolutely? Or is he reasonable enough to have insufficient materials merely me a penalty to the skill roll?

Insufficient materials means you can't get the job done.
Kind of goes in with the definition of "insufficient".
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/insufficient
in·suf·fi·cient [in-suh-fish-uhnt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. not sufficient; lacking in what is necessary or required: an insufficient answer.
2. deficient in force, quality, or amount; inadequate: insufficient protection.

But since we're on the subject, even converting and juryrigging servomotors and such from a suit of power armor to a robot might well be impossible.

So lemme get this straight. A guy with 94% robot mechanics (We'll make him 12th level operator). Wants to jury-rig a servo motor from a SAMAS to a robot.....

And he's not even allowed a SKILL CHECK!?

That's up to the GM.
If it's the wrong size, it just may not work at all.

I'm not sure where you get that idea.
That's like saying the vast majority of damage to human characters is to their skin.

Correct, I'm asking you, when you *did* play the robot (you've said you played them), where was the vast majority of your damage?

To the robot itself, once it got past the 5 MD to the skin.

When you *did* need repairs, what kind of repairs *did* you need? OR if it wasn't you playing the robot, tell me about the guy who did.

The kind of repairs that required a fully outfitted repairshop.

It's the sort of concrete, "don't talk in theory, talk about what actually happenned... and not just one case, but the whole experience" that should ideally lead to an understanding of actually *what* happens, rather than what can happen in theory. Cuz, I'm scratching my head, nowhere in any of the rules are servomotors mentioned, there is no mechanism by which a robot can have his servomotor damaged, and no mention that robots even *have* servomotors, and yet you keep bringing them up. So, I'm trying to limit things to the instances that happen in the vast majority of game occurrences.

The MDC of a robot represents the structure of the bot. Which means that as the bot loses MDC, it sustains damage to its structure.
It's structure includes a variety of mechanical and electronic components.
So, in short, as a robot loses MDC, its mechanical and electronic components become damaged and lose function.
The first time this is addressed is in CB1, when they present the optional robot combat damage tables (p. 13), addressing the loss of function when 60% of the MDC is gone.

I agree with the gist of your overall view here, but we take it two very different places.
An operator trapped in a junkyard couldn't make a functional MDC robot from scratch.
Although he might well be able to cobble something together from the parts of other robots, assuming that there are plenty of robot parts in the junkyard.

And none of that means that you can use xiticix chitin to replace the electronic or mechanical parts of a robot.

Again, all of this is you categorically declaring what can and can't be used for parts. If you were a PhD in Robotics and a PhD in xtra-terrestrial xeno-biology, then you can say that it's categorically impossible to use xiticix chitin to repair robots, or that you can't whittle metals with a vibro-knife.

No, I categorically declared that you cannot use chitin to repair electronic and mechanical components.
You could hypothetically use some to repair armor, if there's some sort of MDC equivilant of JB Weld you could use to hold the pieces in place.

The 'Gist' is this, the 12th Operator knows whats possible, but unless the GM happens to himself be an expert in hyper-alloy combat robots, the GM does NOT. But he's gotta make a call in a way that lets the operator do his thing. This is done with penalties.

Already addressed.
12th level Operators don't know anything; they're not real.

Unless the GM is the type of guy who watches star trek and says "Jeez! You can't rout the tachyon emmitters through the warp coil array in order to desynergize a neutrino field! Common sense says that what you need is to run tetreyones through the Heisenberg compensators!!"

The GM can get as specific or generic as he likes.
He can come up with technobabble reasons for why the repairs will take a week (or not), or he can just say how long they'll take.

Part of the setting of the game is based on the idea that robot repairs are hard to come by.
SB1r, p. 36
"A good rule of thumb is that if the community can provide bionic services or sells robots and/or power armor, they can repair MDC armor and robots. Not always, but often."

"Standardized pricing is one of the reasons the Black Market is popular. Northern Gun usually charges 10% less than its competitors. All others will charge according to the availability of parts, manpower, and the urgency of the work, varying by as much as 50% to 200% higher than the list price. Depending on circumstances (and GM discretion), the specific service or parts may not be available at all, cost more than 200%, require weeks or months of waiting, or it might require the player character to perform a special favor as payment instead of cash."

Funny, they don't mention asking the characters' opinions at all, just the GM.
And they go on quite a bit about the availability of parts, when parts don't matter because a 12th level operator knows more than the GM...

[Killer Cyborg]

Don't suppose you fellas would be willing to just let this debate quietly end?

Didn't see this until I hit submit on my last post.

But yeah, I'm willing to let this drop.
I think I've said all I have to say, and I've quoted what the books say on the subject.

[Killer Cyborg]

Now I know why you have thirty seven thousand one hundred and fifty six posts!

37,159, as of this post.

[random_username]

I don't post often and when I do its normally to find way's around MDC. In fact I don't like the system one bit, that being said my friends asked me to give rifts another chance.

The original Sourcebook One or Conversion One book had a section specifically dealing with playing Rifts for those who hate the MDC system. Basically it had a few ways of converting anything and everything back to SDC, and guidelines for AR ratings.

I'm now at the process of creating a character, our game isn't going to be for a while and I'm at a loss. I don't know what to make, I'll post my hatred of rifts first, and then what I normally like to play in rpgs.

For non-MDC you are basically stuck being entirely non-combat for any MDC combat situation: stealth, misdirection, negotiation, debilitation, etc.

I hate the MDC system, I think that it turns the game into an item fest, where its not about what my character does or how he thinks just how much boom his gun has and how shiny his power armor is. The normal palladium games I play are like Hero's Unlimited, System Failure, or our home brew version of after the bomb (more like fall-out). Where its tough gritty and requires thinking not blowing everything up.

Using Rifts "as is" while avoiding MDC generally means limiting yourself to city-only adventuring in SDC human-only cities (Chi-Town, etc.). Its about as close as you can get eliminating MDC issues while not changing Rifts itself.

Not only do I dislike the MDC system but I dislike how commonplace it is, when even a goblin (psi book), is an MDC structure it gets a little silly given that the average car has 2 MDC at most.

Rifts is a fictional game about a fictional version of Earth set in its fictional future. In that context everything is going to be strange and possibly annoying if taken too seriously.

The easiest vague consideration for MDC is like the various old historical references of Stone Age, Bronze Age, Iron Age, Dark Ages, Modern Age, Industrial Revolution, WWI, WW2, post WW2, Space Age, and now fictional MDC Age.

On one level each Age was a major warfare escalation designed to guarantee victory over those using more primitive arms and armor. Even within the same Age there were innumerable improvements. Club to Thrown Rock to Dagger to Sword to Musket to Rifle to Machine Gun to Tank to Fighter Jet/Bomber to nukes, etc.

Ultimately engaging in combat using only the implements of earlier technological ages versus the current one = instant death. Even having the current level of technology would still require quick wits, combat ability, etc. to at least have a chance of surviving.

The rate and commonplace nature of the MDC in everything makes even the artwork of rifts not make since (take the juicer, would you create armor that had exposed places when even the nick of a MDC blade will kill you?). That's not to mention even the cover of Machinations of Doom (which is above the post as I speak). I know that in modern times people don't wear body armor, but then again in modern times it is some what possible to survive a single grazing blow.

There will always be some practicality loopholes in fiction based on style, theme, attitude, and impression of the subject matter. Though there were enough supporting combative concepts to make such depictions plausible under certain circumstances. Example: Ambush/Win initiative and eliminate on first attack if possible. Juicers tend to have high initiative bonuses and are at least conceptually difficult to ambush.

Now to character creation... I'm apologizing for the rant ahead of time and I really don't want to start a flame war, but I want to make a character that uses his skills and wits to survive (and not be utterly outclassed by the Glitterboys in the group). I was looking through Hero's unlimited and the idea of a mega-hero looked good (a robot per-say), or just a fed up normal person. Or a teen-age mutant ninja Deebee? I don't know enough about rifts to find a character that isn't silly (mdc cowboy hat), or worthless to the party. I also do not really wish to be a mage or psychic because the last Hero's character I played was a psychic. Lastly I know this may be hard for Rifts, but I don't want my character to be item dependent or not show any diffidence between levels (as is the case with some characters).

Keeping up with a Glitter-Boys Boom Gun damage (which is physical damage) is intended to be very tough. It has cheap ammo with a large storage capacity and in general the highest damage output for single shots before getting into Alien Technology Tanks (often limited shots/melee), or volleys of missiles (gets expensive).

Intangibility power = one of the best semi-combative individual means of obtaining power armor, robot vehicles, vehicles, etc. especially without damaging them. Entirely non-combat if you are very good/careful. If quick escape required then just take the fastest vehicle available and outrun anything.

The height of in-game completely natural SDC human scale combat can probably be summarized by the Sportsman OCC from Australia (highest stat bonus possibilities and autododge) OR any OCC that offers HTH Commando (for the autododge) OR other HTH that includes autododge. If you leave out all the MDC equipment portions. This presumes not using any psionics, magic, supernatural, phase powers, technology, etc.

The super powered MDC (Skraypers, HU, etc.) versions of the same would scale it up to where it could also inflict MD without relying upon tech, magic, psionics, etc.

Please help me out, because I really do enjoy the Rifts flavor and world despite all of this, and I want to give the game a chance.

Hopefully something in all of this was helpful.

[keir451]

Charz,

Generally speaking there are three paths to power in Rifts: Magic, Psionics, and Technology.

You ruled out the first two, and then said you don't want to be item dependent which rules out Technology.

Sorry for being a pain, its just that rifts has such a wonderful flavor but such a silly system. I call it silly because of all of the other wonderful things that palladium makes that never see it past a small cult following (TMNT, system failure, and other great sdc systems) also because I'm a college student who knows far too many medical students, and tech heads for MDC to make since, but again I digress

I was thinking of a robot, since I don't want items but being one would be neat. Sort of like a data, are there any books out there for robot creation?

TMNT is part of what got me into Rifts in the first place. Even Data used the tech around him to his purpose, so don't rule out the "items" around you.
Don't like MDC? Use hit points or SDC instead, perfectly allowable by the game rules. Any one of the aforementioned OCC's can be run well in Rifts and even a "Commander Data" type android would not be out of place.