My idea on the layout of Robotech Unlimited Edition (RT:UE)

[Kagashi]

Nevermind MDC levels or gun pod statstics....

RT:UE Core book:

- A complete timeline, from the Global Civil War to Scott Brenard searching for the SDF-3
- Character creation In Accordance With (IAW) Rifts Unlimited Edition (RUE). Rename "Supernatural" strength with "Zentraedi" strength. Retool the skills to mimic those of RUE (with secondary skills and OCC related skills as oppsed to "other" skills).
- Rifts conversion notes and how RT fits in with magic, the supernatural and so on (seeing that the new conversion book deleted the entry on Robotech)
- Revised skill list, using RUE as a template. Changing skill % as needed. Adding in RT specific skills, like Lore: Zentraedi and such.
- Combat IAW RUE, including HtH Assassin and Commando. Rename Leap Dodge into Auto Dodge.
- Source material for ALL mecha and vehicals shown in the 3 sections of the original RT series as well as the three episodes of Sentinels (with notes on when each item would be available) as well as all small arms and body armor.
-RCCs of Zentraedi, RT masters, Invid, and Sentinels aliens.
- Hardcover and about 300 pages

RT:UE Deck Plans
- All ships, Zentraedi, RT masters, Invid, RDF, Early REF, Late REF, and the missing Southern Cross ships, details and deckplans. Crew complaments (timeline specific), Mecha compliments (timeline specific).
- Space combat rules with the big ships.
-Im thinking about 128 pages or so.

RT:UE Source books
-describes any Palladium input stuff, like EBSIS or Merchant republic stuff.
-Mercanary OCCs

RT:UE "World" books (Multipule books)
-Describes Earth during the different timeline periods (a different book for each era): Global Civil War, First RT War, Zentraedi Uprisings, 2nd RT War, Sentinels War, 3rd RT War (with REF Civil War/Shadow Chronicles lead-ins)
-Major and minor NPCs listed and detailed
-All the major political powers of the time, detailed more than a small paragraph for each. Plus a political map of the world for the respective time.
-Adventure ideas, small one time adventures and even Meta-plots.
- One book deticated to the Sentinels Aliens home planets and Opteria, Triol, and Fantoma
-Each book about 128 pages

[Marcantony]

128 pages on each different time period? And no longer 3 eras but now split into 6?

Um yeah.

[Kagashi]

Sigh, this is the third time Ive tried to respond to this, but the site keeps dumping my post... so this is going to be quick.

Let me rephrase what I meant about Rifts conversion. I dont want to actaully convert anyting from RT INTO Rifts. Rather, I would like to see how RT falls into the Megaversal Rules of Palladium (explain Ley Lines, PPE, ISP, ect...and RT's relationship to those aspects.) Its not an off the topic request. Many RT aspects use supernatural powers (Garudans, Perytons, Robotech Masters, Bioroid Pilots, Invid), its just those rules were not established in an MDC world when RT was written.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Many RT aspects use supernatural powers (Garudans, Perytons, Robotech Masters, Bioroid Pilots, Invid), its just those rules were not established in an MDC world when RT was written.

Sorry, but that is untrue.

1.) Nothing in Robotech itself is necessarily supernatural, including the Invid. Even their alchemy can be rationally explained through science, however far above that of our own current level. Yes, it may make it indistinguishable from magic, but that does not MAKE it magic.

2.) The Supernatural aspects were added AFTERWARDS to a series (Robotech II: The Sentinels) that isn't canon and wasn't even completed.

There is no need to clutter up the main book for a Robotech roleplaying game with rules that are wholely unnecessary. Why include conversion rules to Rifts?

[Kagashi]

Many RT aspects use supernatural powers (Garudans, Perytons, Robotech Masters, Bioroid Pilots, Invid), its just those rules were not established in an MDC world when RT was written.

Sorry, but that is untrue.

1.) Nothing in Robotech itself is necessarily supernatural, including the Invid. Even their alchemy can be rationally explained through science, however far above that of our own current level. Yes, it may make it indistinguishable from magic, but that does not MAKE it magic.

2.) The Supernatural aspects were added AFTERWARDS to a series (Robotech II: The Sentinels) that isn't canon and wasn't even completed.

There is no need to clutter up the main book for a Robotech roleplaying game with rules that are wholely unnecessary. Why include conversion rules to Rifts?

It is true actually.

Invid have Psionic abilites, as do the Masters. That is Supernatural (supernatural does not mean magic). Both races even show these abilites in the show. No Sentenils about it.

Anyway, to make the PB truly Megaversal...this would have to be included. (Unless one does not care about universal rules, then it does not really matter. But in a system obviously created for cross overs, I would expect it)

Im not saying add Leylines to Robotech. Im saying explain how would aspects of RT fair under those conditions. The orginal Conversion book spoke of such things, but is now omitted in the revised edition and needs to be addressed. One page...max.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Invid have Psionic abilites

I'll grant you that what the Regess did to Annie in The Genesis Pit could appear to be psionics as well as her mind blast in Dark Finale, but these can also be achieved through advanced cybernetics as well as suggestion.

As for the Masters, their 'telepathy' as seen in eps. #29 The Robotech Masters can also be achieved through cybernetics, specifically a 'hive-mind' type deal. Given that the Masters excel at cybertechnology, this would not be outside the realm of possibilty.

[drewkitty ~..~]

128 pages on each different time period? And no longer 3 eras but now split into 6?

Um yeah.

I agree with splitting up the time periods into different sorcebooks, with the basic char creation aspectes to be found in the Macross/Main book, with the time specific OCC/MOS's in their repective books. That way you don't have to cram everthing into one big book. It also lets you have convertion note to be added to the books, with setting/time period specifice notes to be placed into the sorcebook covering the what the notes cover.

As to the book and what they cover


main/Macross(M)---from SDF-1 launching ceremonies till the attack of dolza's fleet.

Reconstrution(R)--from end of macross to the kyron's attack on the SDF-1.

Malcontent Uprisings(MU)--from the end of reconstruction to just before the launching of the SDF-3 or just before the arival of the RT Masters.

The RT Masters(RTM)--from the end of the MU till the death of Zor Prime

The Sentinals(S)--including the launch of the SDF-3 till before the launch of the mars battle group.

Invid Invastion(II)--from just after the masters till the leaving of the Invid Ruling Mother.

The Unification Wars (UFW)--prequal to macross from the til of the SDF-1's cradh landing till the begining of Macross.

[hummm.......that is 7 books......oh well ]


Because of the very shortness of the timeline you could possible play a single char from the UFW, through all the timeline, having to decide weather to go with the sentenals or stay on earth with the AotSC.

Other optional books would be to explore the historey of the old world contenents during the different times....euope, russia, china, africa, indochina, and the south seas (southern pacific area).

Some other things ...for the R, MU,S , and II books I would like to see some char creation rules like in Systems Failure where it shows what the char was before they had to change life paths.

By the Way, I wouldn't want these to be tied so closely to the Rifts setting to much, esspesilly this talk about using the RUE as the Standard for the new RT rules.

[Kagashi]

By the Way, I wouldn't want these to be tied so closely to the Rifts setting to much, esspesilly this talk about using the RUE as the Standard for the new RT rules.

But Palladium is supposed to be "Megaversal". Unique to the RPG systems out there, yet standardized to all their games. If they did RTUE, I have no doubt it will mimic RUE.

[jedi078]

I don't mind RUE being the basis for a new Robotech game, I just hope they get rid of that nonsense about a called-shot taking an additional attack, particularly since you have a strike penalty on top of it. This made sense in BTS where few if any characters had real experience in using weapons, but in a almost pure military game like Roboteh or even Rifts, I question the rule.

Well a GM can always go back to using the old WP rules, I do.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Or not include the rule where your M.D.C. armor can absorb the full impact of an attack/blast before disintigrating and yet your character is still alive (unscathed) even if you where nuked. In all seriousness, that kind of rule contridicts alot of things shown in Robotech and would not be an appropiate rule for a Robotech campaign setting.

I do belive everyone has edited the G.I. Joe rule from the rules they play with. Even I who doesn't go to the Rifts forum (much) have heard the flack about it.

[Kagashi]

I agree that rule sucks. I never use it myself. Of course, thats PB rule nubmer one, if you dont like it, dont use it.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Also there is a difference between "One shot kills" and absorbing all damage to an attack thus destroying the armor but the PC survives. The Gi Joe rule would allow a REF in CVR-3 Body Armor to survive a direct nuclear attack (causing tens of thousands of M.D.C. in damage) and the only damage he would recieve would be for his armor to disinergrate. I don't think anybody here would argue that kind of rule doesn't not even remotely reflect what was seen in Robotech.

i have never heard of this rule in my entire life. I own all of the Robotech books. Care to enlighten me?

The Rule is in RUE (Rifts Ultimait Edition), its a dead rule by populer demand anyways.

if you try to stay true to the show, what do you choose? Non-main characters get killed in job lots by one shot from a Battlepod. Rick's VF-1 gets blown to bits around him and still keeps ticking. The rules should be balanced for fun and playability, not trying to replicate the show. Trying to replicate a show where you can die instantly from a single attack would be about as fun as a brain tumor.

Actully Testsuya, if you look @ the ststs for the VF serise in the RT main book you see something called a Reinforced pilot's compartment that has seperate MDC from the main body. This would give all those pilots who get their mecha shot out from under them a chance of surviving being hit. Also a good portion of the singal hit missle shots are in closing manuvers in which the mecha and missiles are on reciprical headdings adding to the kinetic damage that the missile would normally have.

[jedi078]

which will still be as fun as a brain tumor. So i dont die but i still become useless 2 rounds into any given fight because ive been shot down *again*.

Well that just means if your going to pilot a VT make sure you have high P.P. bonues so you can dodge.

If you don't have a P.P. bonus then pilot a Destroid which should have 200-300% more MDC then a Veritech.

So who do we follow? The original RT books obviously followed the Rick Hunter is a hero approach when determining stats for mecha - if theyd used the nobody characters as basis for mecha stats VF-1's would have like 20 MDC.

Fun and game balance far outweigh any "realism"

As for realism, the VF-1's in my game have 150 MDC, but not every shot that strikes will hit the main body.

As for Rick being a "Hero" he just managed to make better dodge rolls then the other VT pilots.

And for those time when a NAt. 20 rears it's ugly head and a PC can't dodge?

I usually let him/her live, I call it the Hand of God.

We see this occurring twice in the series, once when Rick's Armored Sumo get’s nailed by 12 LRM's fired from a Theater Scout (I know the books say MRM's but I say there LRM's), and later when he get’s nailed by friendly SAM's.

[jedi078]

try rolling just 3 six sided dice, 8 times in a row, and recording the results. Now you have your stats. No special rolling rules, no nothing. just follow the character creation in the book, and tell me what you get. Doing it just now i got:

10, 8, 12, 9, 14, 13, 11, 9

not a single exceptional attribute in the bunch.

now make that character fun in your proposed realism-system.

Looks like you just rolled up a comm tech or WSO in my game.

Also if you had rolled a 7 or lower on one of the attributes you could have boosted any other attribute by 1d4+3 using RUE rules.

Anyhow I've been giving my PC's the option to roll 3d8 instead of 3d6, with the catch being NO extra dice roll for anything above a 16 for a LONG time.

Heck you COULD even do the same thing by having them roll 3d10.

AND there are skills that increase your P.P. such as Gymnastics and Acrobatics. Although the P.P. bonuses listed in RUE are pretty low in my opinion.

AND there are skills that increase you parry and dodge bonuses.

[drewkitty ~..~]

they could save space in a new RT main book be excluding the PSI and MAgic rules in their entirety.

At least till they make a new Sentinals book, that is if they follow novles or the old sent book for the powers of the aliens.

[jedi078]

R: UE isnt Robotech. It never has been. Let it go.

This discussion is about incorporating RUE rules into Robotech, and thus making a "Robotech: Unlimited Edition."

So "Let it go" isn't the solution, “Let it go” is the statement of a person who doesn’t want and avoids change.

Let me tell you something about change: If companies don’t make changes they can fall to the wayside real quick. Thus it’s no surprise that PB has given a facelift to it’s Rifts rules, many of which first appeared in Robotech. Therefore any new version of Robotech published by PB (I’m not talking about re-prints of old books but NEW books) will have many of the rules from RUE incorporated within it.

And what you just proved to me is that you dont follow the character creation rules. If you are changing the rules to make the game fun then you arent playing the same game. If it needs to be changed to make it fun, then it isnt a good game.

I seem to remember one rule that is prevalent throughout PB's books.... if you don't like a rule or want to change a rule do so.
So in effect I am following the rules, I'm just not limiting myself to a set of written rules which have BEEN improved upon.

I have taken what I like in RUE and adding some of my own house rules to make the Robotech game I am running enjoyable. That's pretty much want many people running Robotech RPG games are doing.

Try looking at the Robotech RPG instead of R:UE. You still cant just take a pile of phyiscal skills and end up with a high PP. it just doesnt happen. Either you rolled it or you're out of luck.

I don't know about you but I don't like playing PC's with a bunch of crappy attributes. I know others don't like playing PC's with a bunch of crappy attributes either.

That's why the added bonuses due to low attitudes are in RUE, and that is one thing that WILL make it into a "Robotech: Unlimited Edition."

incorrect. if he'd dodged, his VT wouldnt have been shot up in the first place. there are COUNTLESS scenes where "extras" get blown out of the sky by a single missile or one shot from a battlepod. At one point rick ends up with holes in his wings, a missing arm, shattered stabilizers, and battle damage all over the damn VF-1. It took *damage*. if you go by the animation - you have to choose - are the PC's playing "extras" (and thereby make the game fatal, and have low MDC values) or are they playing heros? if they're playing Hero's, watch Rick, Roy, Ben, Scott, etc get into a fight - they take punishment, and the MDC values assigned to most of the mecha in RT make sense.

Yes Ricks VT gets dinged here and there, and takes damage, he was lucky and didn’t take any critical hits. Then again there are time when Rick did get nailed and it was only luck (well the script really) that he wasn't killed.

As Variable Fighter Pilot pointed out: In Robotech the “hero’s” are just as susceptible to death as the non-heroes as seen in the T.V. series. Thus the “hero’s” should have the same chance of dying as a non-hero.

[jedi078]

They never specifically state in what order or that you can't allocate them.

I don’t have a copy of my Robotech RPG book (it’s upstairs, and if I go up there I won’t come back down), but I bet your right about the Robtech RPG stating that.

But in RUE (currently serving as my mouse pad),on page 279, in reference to rolling attributes: Start with I.Q. and work your way through the rest .

NOW IT ALSO states that in PC creation the PB system is designed to allow a player to build his/her PC to his/her specifications. So IMHO allocating attributes is just one more way to allow players to do this.

This in turn makes it more FUN for the player to play his/her PC.

[dataweaver]

I laugh when people state you're not playing the game right if you're not following the rules word for word. The "golden rule" has been around since the first P & P RPG came to the market and I haven't seen a book yet that doesn't suggest to make your own changes that suit your taste.

There's a difference between making changes that suit your own taste and making changes to make the game work. The rules should be written in such a way that you can play the game by following them word for word - which is not at all the same as saying that you must do so.

Note also that this is a discussion about what should be published - not what players should do with the final product. The rules designer ought to work under the assumption that the rules will be used as written, so he should make an effort to ensure that they can be.

Look: not even D&D is wedded to the notion of rolling up attributes anymore; even they include published options _in the core rules_ for letting players pick their stats. This is because there's a significant market of players who are more interested in creating a character to fit a concept that they have in mind than in playing whatever the dice dictate. It's high time for Palladium to do likewise.

[jedi078]

difference between you and me? Im a ROLEplayer, you're a ROLLplayer.

To be honest my GM style has the two go hand in hand, the ROLEplaying determines what the ROLLplaying will be. Besides character creation IS ROLLplaying, until you go about doing the bio/background of a PC.

so, 2 hero's dead throughout the Macross saga (Roy and Ben) versus *hundreds* of extras slain means that heroes die as easily as extras? I think not. On top of that, Roy kept fighting after he was wounded and took hundreds of the enemy with him. Most of the extras die with ordnance still on their racks and not a single round fired.

If you look at history many heros end up with the title of "hero" after the fact, and they were not rtying to be hero's all they did was try to survive or keep their buddies alive. My point is Robotech is could be played as an Anime game or as a game taking place during a gritty war. The GM's style determines which is used, and sometimes both.

In a gritty war RPG, most heroes die.

And to be honest it’s obvious we don’t see eye to eye, so I see no use arguing over it.

[dataweaver]

dataweaver wrote:

There's a difference between making changes that suit your own taste and making changes to make the game work. The rules should be written in such a way that you can play the game by following them word for word - which is not at all the same as saying that you must do so.

However, when you get a bunch of errata for the rules already published a few months later, then that theory falls flat.

When you get a bunch of errata for the rules already published a few months later, you have a poorly designed product - not something that you should be holding up as "this is how things ought to be done".

Most books nowdays state that the rules are a general guideline where players can pick and choose what they want to use.

Most books nowadays provide a number of optional rules, so that you can pick and choose which options they want to use. "Make it up on your own" (i.e., house rules) is still pretty much a last resort, and when you're forced to go this route in order to be able to manage the style of gameplay that you prefer, it's an indication that there's something wrong.

Can Robotech be played word for word with no problems, sure. Does it leave enough elements open to tweak or add your own rules, yes.

You speak as though adding your own rules is a desirable thing. In my experience, it isn't; house rules tend to add as many problems as they solve, and thus are something that should be done when there's no other reasonable way to solve the problem you're having. And then there are those GMs out there who aren't game designers - not even as a hobby. For instance, our group's GM has a great sense of the dramatic and is a master at making sure that the players are getting their opportunities to shine; he's one of the best GMs I've ever met. But he's terrible at inventing rules. If the rules as written don't work for him, he doesn't have the time or the ability to work up a patch - and the game suffers as a result. This is why the rules need to have more flexibility in them than "use the golden rule".

No matter how "well written" the rules are, people don't always see them eye to eye and will implement their own changes accordingly. Game designers realize that which is why the "golden rule" is always stated in books.

I never said otherwise. I'm merely saying that you're overstating the value of the golden rule. It's extremely valuable to the GM; but to a game designer, it's a cheat: "if the players don't like the way I write the rules, they should change them" should be used when all other reasonable options have failed, not as the standard rule. Again, house rules are something that should be permitted, and perhaps even encouraged; but they should not be required.

Think of it this way: there are several different styles of gameplay. If the game designer caters to one of them and tells the proponents of all of the others that they have to "golden rule" the game, the game is going to sell to the first group really well and to everyone else very poorly.

Look: not even D&D is wedded to the notion of rolling up attributes anymore; even they include published options _in the core rules_ for letting players pick their stats. This is because there's a significant market of players who are more interested in creating a character to fit a concept that they have in mind than in playing whatever the dice dictate. It's high time for Palladium to do likewise.

Not even remotely true. D&D 3.0/3.5 is heavily dependant on attribute scores to make your character's more effective.

And this relates to what I said, how? I never said anything one way or another about how important attribute scores are; I was speaking strictly about how one goes about determining what their values are. Palladium insists that you determine all of them by random rolls, which is fine for those who like randomness in character creation; d20 provides an alternative that lets you choose values without any random element. In this regard, d20 is better than Palladium.