how do you kill a munchkin burster scarecrow?

[grandmaster z0b]

Technically it would be really hard to kill, but you could still kill it or incapacitate it. I have said this before but I'll say it again;

Hit it with a Soul Drinking Rune weapon
Possess it
Force it into a limbo like dimension

I would not allow this a player character but I would use it as a villain, the players would have to work out how to destroy it. Maybe they would have to go on a quest to get the rune weapon or find the Shifter that knows how to send it into a pocket dimension or something.

[grandmaster z0b]

still reading all the responses(so far i think the nega-psichic with the flame thrower has the best cance, but im only on page 3). But jsut to clear this up, im thinking of having this guy as a VILLIAN!!! NOT A PC!!!!! But, not being a killer GM, i want to give my players a way(no matter how obscure) or a chance(no matter how slim) to defeat and EVENTUALLY KILL him. But i just might make him anyways. And he could use the psi-ability to supress fear to study fire and eventually overcome the fear. And while an Old one would definently stop him i think that is a BIT extreme.

Yeah that's what I thought, it sounds like a good villain. Read my posts above for some adventure ideas.

[grandmaster z0b]

still reading all the responses(so far i think the nega-psichic with the flame thrower has the best cance, but im only on page 3). But jsut to clear this up, im thinking of having this guy as a VILLIAN!!! NOT A PC!!!!! But, not being a killer GM, i want to give my players a way(no matter how obscure) or a chance(no matter how slim) to defeat and EVENTUALLY KILL him. But i just might make him anyways. And he could use the psi-ability to supress fear to study fire and eventually overcome the fear. And while an Old one would definently stop him i think that is a BIT extreme.

Yeah that's what I thought, it sounds like a good villain. Read my posts above for some adventure ideas.

"...immune to magic that effects the human mind or body..." Sadly i think that covers possession and soul drinking. But the Limbo thing still works. But the group will have to kill/destroy it as they are trying to overcome a reputation of "dumping their problems on other people who are'nt qualififed to deal with them"

I didn't realise that, hmmm. I still think soul drinking would count as not even alien intelligences can resist it, although they get a very high bonus to save. It goes somewhat beyond "magic" as it's an attack on the very soul.

The other option is that only one particular rune weapon will work and they have to go on a mission to find it.

[Subjugator]

It takes the damage from the canon or the LotD it just regenerates even if completly destroyed by it.

The sun, fire elemental, and volcano would not do anythign because they are immune to MD fire, even macial MD fire does not harm a burster.

According to the official answer I got from Maryann (pre-divorce), immunities can be overwhelmed. In the case I gave, it was the SDF3 main gun and the sun burns MUCH hotter than that.

Sorry, Maryann cannot give offical answers to anything.

Before the divorce she could. She was an employee of Palladium and could therefore give canon answers to questions.

[Nekira Sudacne]

It takes the damage from the canon or the LotD it just regenerates even if completly destroyed by it.

The sun, fire elemental, and volcano would not do anythign because they are immune to MD fire, even macial MD fire does not harm a burster.

According to the official answer I got from Maryann (pre-divorce), immunities can be overwhelmed. In the case I gave, it was the SDF3 main gun and the sun burns MUCH hotter than that.

Sorry, Maryann cannot give offical answers to anything.

Before the divorce she could. She was an employee of Palladium and could therefore give canon answers to questions.

really, so palladiums accountant is automatically able to answer all game questions?

sorry, that dosn't hold water. it needs to be her actual job, or she dosn't have authority

[Nekira Sudacne]

Hmm... just one thought. Would liquid nitrogen work on a scarecrow burster or any other supernatural creatures?

After all, it is upposed to be immnue to fires, not extreme cold.....

except it's immune to all nonmagical damage. they're not just immune to fire.

[Nekira Sudacne]

because they have a spefic weakness to it. they arn't not immune to fire when unconcious/sleeping, only when staked.

Right, because being staked puts them into a weakened state of suspended animation.
I'd say that bursters are still immune to fire when they're sleeping, but I'm pretty sure that they can burn once they're [i]dead[i/].

Inflict enough damage to a Scarecrow, and he'll be dead enough to burn before he regenerates.

except that the weakness is a magical one specific to vampires. it has no relevance whatsoever to scarecrows.

and secondly: no. they don't take damage so they don't degrade. it's impossible to do that much damage, they take 0.

No I think they do take damage from magical and psychic attacks, however even if they are blasted to bits by magic they will regenerate by morning.
Fire is the only way to kill it, but it is vulnerable to other things, just not physical attacks or projectiles.

point.

nevertheless, there's nothing to inidcate that blasting them to bits makes fire effective if they're immune to it.

sorry. it's unsupported and specious thinking at best.

immune means immune. period. no exceptions unless actually stated.

The problem with the view that immune is immune with no exceptions is that these rules aren't that well conceived. This is where we get into the land of interpretation of the rules. Even the law, with its far more meticulous wording requires interpretation when a gap exists. The burster description is written with mortal creatures in mind. It is understood that it only relates to a burster that is psionically functional, whether they be conscious or unconscious. There comes a point when a scarecrow has taken so much damage that they are non-functional. In other words, they are not aware of their environment, of themselves and are not able to do anything and won't remember what happened during that time. This is when the aforementioned scarecrow no longer has defenses against fire, as it is essentially dead.

You can continue your argument about how rules are black and white, but in light of how porous Palladium rules are and the pretty much ubiquitous use of house rules of some sort, your adhesion to your stance doesn't hold up well at all.

sorry, your argument dosn't really hold any water at all. and here's the kicker about the psionics argument.

the immunity to fire requires no concentration to maintain. therefore, the loss of hte ability to concentrate cannot interfear sinse it's unrequired.

and really, just because you don't like hte rules isn't a strong argument when we're trying to find a rules-legal way to do something. it's inherently pointless to the argument.

[Nekira Sudacne]

sorry, your argument dosn't really hold any water at all. and here's the kicker about the psionics argument.

the immunity to fire requires no concentration to maintain. therefore, the loss of hte ability to concentrate cannot interfear sinse it's unrequired.

and really, just because you don't like hte rules isn't a strong argument when we're trying to find a rules-legal way to do something. it's inherently pointless to the argument.

I did not argue that concentration was necessary. I argued that psionic potential was necessary. The source of psionics is in the mind(or whatever passes for such) of the psychic. That is why a dead man can't use astral projection. A scarecrow that is inanimate is essentially dead because it is incapable of doing anything, including dreaming. Therefore, the reflexive psionics protecting them is ineffective.

I also did not argue based upon not liking the rules. I argued that the rules are incomplete. That they can't govern all situations exactly as written because the writers can't anticipate all possible situations that could come up. My citing the obscene number of house rules supports the assertion that this is indeed the case.

From here, one can decide to go one of two directions. One can decide to go by the letter of the law, or by the spirit of the law. Going by the letter of the law means that immunity is absolute. Going by the spirit of the law seeks to interpret how it should be in context to the rest of the world and the context of the expected practitioner of the original OCC. You are using the former method and I am using the latter.

Continuing the analogy with the law, interpreting according to the letter of the law results in twisted results because there is always a detail that confounds the letter of the law. This is why courts keep the spirit of the law in mind when they make a ruling. This is clearly a circumstance that wasn't considered and requires a look at the whole system rather than a few words on a page.

sorry I don't agree. I truely feel that total immunity in all cirumstances is indeed the SPIRIT and not just the letter. immune isn't immune uless it's immune, that's the inherent spirit of immunity.

[Gomen_Nagai]

My 50 Cents ;


Fire Walkers in BTS 2 Can only become so after causing a bonfire on their own.

[Gomen_Nagai]

also note, Particle beams disintergrate even Invulnerable beings, unless they're impervious to Energy, but even Impervious to Energy can be overwhlemed by Chi Charging the Energy attack.

[Nekira Sudacne]

sorry I don't agree. I truely feel that total immunity in all cirumstances is indeed the SPIRIT and not just the letter. immune isn't immune uless it's immune, that's the inherent spirit of immunity.

In order to be considering the spirit of the rule, one must consider context. Reading the word immunity and making a black and white evaluation is exactly the opposite of considering the spirit of the law. It is relying upon the spirit of the word, which is exactly the trap of literal interpretation of the law. You are relying on the literal meaning of the word used in the rule(or the letter of the rule) to make your judgement.

Not true. i'm also taking context into account. I simply don't agree with your interpretation of it.

[Killer Cyborg]

sorry I don't agree. I truely feel that total immunity in all cirumstances is indeed the SPIRIT and not just the letter. immune isn't immune uless it's immune, that's the inherent spirit of immunity.

In order to be considering the spirit of the rule, one must consider context. Reading the word immunity and making a black and white evaluation is exactly the opposite of considering the spirit of the law. It is relying upon the spirit of the word, which is exactly the trap of literal interpretation of the law. You are relying on the literal meaning of the word used in the rule(or the letter of the rule) to make your judgement.

Not true. i'm also taking context into account. I simply don't agree with your interpretation of it.

I don't think that you ever answered my question about dead bursters.

[Nekira Sudacne]

sorry I don't agree. I truely feel that total immunity in all cirumstances is indeed the SPIRIT and not just the letter. immune isn't immune uless it's immune, that's the inherent spirit of immunity.

In order to be considering the spirit of the rule, one must consider context. Reading the word immunity and making a black and white evaluation is exactly the opposite of considering the spirit of the law. It is relying upon the spirit of the word, which is exactly the trap of literal interpretation of the law. You are relying on the literal meaning of the word used in the rule(or the letter of the rule) to make your judgement.

Not true. i'm also taking context into account. I simply don't agree with your interpretation of it.

I don't think that you ever answered my question about dead bursters.

musta missed it.

anyway. to answer the question: No, not really. at teh same time, it's impossible to do enough damage to make a scarecrow "effectivly dead". at no point does it say taht when blown to peices the scarecrow is dead.

it's still alive, and thus it's psionic potential is still there, even if dormant.

likewise, I think an uncocious burster IS still immune to fire, even though a dead one isn't.

if you kill a scarecrow burster, it's no longer fireproof. then again, sinse you can't kill a scarecrow burster without setting it on fire...

and even then, there's no cannon answer for if killing a burster makes tehm vunerable to fire. i'm just, again, going with what I think is the spirit.

as long as their alive, the psionic potential is still in the body. and that potential is all is needed to effect the immunity.

at the same time, I do belive that, say, a mutant with Impervious to Fire superpower remains immune to fire after death, sinse it has to do with the actual structure of the body and no power that requires life.

[Rockwolf66]

My solution would be to conger up the stuff of absolute anihilation. a bit the size of a pinhead should do it.

Yeah their is a spell that instantly and perminantly destroys all matter.

[Nekira Sudacne]

My solution would be to conger up the stuff of absolute anihilation. a bit the size of a pinhead should do it.

Yeah their is a spell that instantly and perminantly destroys all matter.

ecept they can regenerate from nothingness.

[Killer Cyborg]

to answer the question: No, not really. at teh same time, it's impossible to do enough damage to make a scarecrow "effectivly dead". at no point does it say taht when blown to peices the scarecrow is dead.

You are correct that it does not.
But it's close enough for it to be a GM's call.

it's still alive, and thus it's psionic potential is still there, even if dormant.

If it's still alive, then you're right.
But if it actually dies, and simply regenerates from death again, then you could burn it while it's temporarily dead, killing it permanently.

likewise, I think an uncocious burster IS still immune to fire, even though a dead one isn't.

Agreed. That would make sense.

at the same time, I do belive that, say, a mutant with Impervious to Fire superpower remains immune to fire after death, sinse it has to do with the actual structure of the body and no power that requires life.

Time to skin me a mutant and make some fireproof leather clothes...

[Nekira Sudacne]

to answer the question: No, not really. at teh same time, it's impossible to do enough damage to make a scarecrow "effectivly dead". at no point does it say taht when blown to peices the scarecrow is dead.

You are correct that it does not.
But it's close enough for it to be a GM's call.

it's still alive, and thus it's psionic potential is still there, even if dormant.

If it's still alive, then you're right.
But if it actually dies, and simply regenerates from death again, then you could burn it while it's temporarily dead, killing it permanently.

of the ONLY way to kill it is though fire, then blasting it to peices cannot be death.

at the same time, I do belive that, say, a mutant with Impervious to Fire superpower remains immune to fire after death, sinse it has to do with the actual structure of the body and no power that requires life.

Time to skin me a mutant and make some fireproof leather clothes...

Good Idea

[rat_bastard]

I'm telling you people! Temporal link parasite!
SPlynn dimenstional market page 126-127 it bonds to goddamn anything! and after the scarecrow gains three levels he fades away into nothingness! Then you nuke splynn from orbit just to be sure!

[Killer Cyborg]

Time to skin me a mutant and make some fireproof leather clothes...

Hercules did this in Pathegleons of the Megaverse. His lion "cape" is still immune to all except blunt attacks. (No I don't want to know how he got the skeleton/organs out.)

Its cannon approved.

Only if it was a mutant lion.

[Killer Cyborg]

of the ONLY way to kill it is though fire, then blasting it to peices cannot be death.

What the book says is:
"Only fire can destroy a scarecrow!"

It says nothing about killing it, just "destroying" it.

Time to skin me a mutant and make some fireproof leather clothes...

Good Idea

[Nekira Sudacne]

psionics are supoposed to lose their effects upon the user becoming unconcious, no? Afterall, the brain is no longer focus on weilding that power. Shouldn't the sacrecrow be vulnerable to fire when it is dead?

But then again, I may be hitting my head against a brick wall with one of you.

as I've said half a dozen times already, The immunity to fire dosn't need concentration, so loosing concentration can't affect it

[Killer Cyborg]

What effects would the Bursters Aura fave on a T-Archers Fire arrow?

The aura will stop the fire from hurting the scarecrow on the outside. Once the arrow is lodged in the scarecrow's head/torso the Bursters Aura shouldn't protect it.

Yes, it should.

[Gomen_Nagai]

Bursters are not immune to magical fire, Therefore, this convo is pointless.

[Killer Cyborg]

Bursters are not immune to magical fire, Therefore, this convo is pointless.

Because some of the newbies might pay attention to what you say, I suppose I should point out how wrong you are:

RUE, 140
"Even Mega-Damage plasma, napalm, a dragon's fire breath, and magic fires do nothing but minor cosmetic damage (singe clothing or armor, damage a delicate item, etc.)."

Rifts, p. 102 (back when they still took 1/10th damage from impact)
"Even mega-damage plasma, napalm, and magic fires do one tenth damage (and that is from the impact of the blast, not the flames)."

[Gomen_Nagai]

god, what power creep! .. there's also the 300 MDC tower inferno Thing they can do...

[Nekira Sudacne]

as I've said half a dozen times already, The immunity to fire dosn't need concentration, so loosing concentration can't affect it

So what you are saying is that the nature of his/her fire-proof is not psionic in nature, but magic.

no, what i'm saying is this is one psychic power that dosn't need concentration.

[Steve Dubya]

The easy way around this is to just gice the Scarecrow an amulet of Fire Control or something - that it keeps inside of itself (and one of the powers that the amulet might bestow would be an immunity to fire, say). I was actually going to do this myself, but I figure that this is as good a place as any to get he idea off the ground.

That way, the immunity can be bypassed - if the amulet is taken away or destroyed.

Still would be a real pain-in-the-butt villain...
Especially if he had some magic and combat skillz - sweet, sweet simul strikes...

[Syndicate]

I started a new topic as i thought that 35 pages was long enough. So is a scarecrow takes a burster O.C.C. then HOW do you kill it?? Maybe that is why Monsters and Animals 2ndED says that no Palladium scarecrows are known to be in rifts.

We can also use this topic on how to kill/inconvience all the QUASI-MUNCHKIN creations

YOU ALLOWED WHAT?!?

....HAHAHAHHAHAHAAAAHAHA...THAT'S AWESOME!!!..

..HEH..AHH..ah...*ahem*...ahhhah...it's happened to before...

[Library Ogre]

I think the suggestion of a psi-nullifier is an interesting one. While it's not specifically covered, how would a psi-nullifier's powers interact with something that is psionic in nature, but in-place, innate, and constant (like a bursters immunity to fire, or a psi-stalker's psychic tracking)?

[finn69]

damn, this topic went dead...<head spins>

anyway, I believe the Psi-Nullifier only nullifies psi/magic directed at him and couldn't interfere with a creature protecting itself.

he'd be a blank spot to a Psi-Stalker though.

what about a nega psychic?

[Killer Cyborg]

so what you guys are saying, those of you who arent arguing wether or not a scarecrow can BECOME a burster(look in Monsters and animals 2nd edition), is that he woud make an excellent recurring villian. Or do you think it is too over the top and is just killer GMing. Please, bear in mind that the main character in my game is the godling from my other posts. For those who dont know, a godling in PFRPG that has a sword that does x2 damage to supernatural creatures is VERY hard to ocome up with a some thing to challange him, mush less a recurring villian(short of dragons and gods i mean). So, to recap:

1) GREAT recurring villian or,

2) Killer GMing

If any one wants too make a poll out of this question that would be GREAT!!(i dont know how to yet .

Potentially great recurring villian.
Or a potentially bad recurring villian.
That depends on the GM.

But I like the idea. If the guy's a Godling, then he's should be able to handle it.
And there are lots of ways to stop a villian without killing him.
A Domination or Trance spell with a permanent ward, for example.

[Subjugator]

So why wouldn't anti-magic cloud cause him to fall to pieces (at which time he'd be burned to a crisp as he'd no longer be animate)?

[Nekira Sudacne]

I think the suggestion of a psi-nullifier is an interesting one. While it's not specifically covered, how would a psi-nullifier's powers interact with something that is psionic in nature, but in-place, innate, and constant (like a bursters immunity to fire, or a psi-stalker's psychic tracking)?

the null has no effect, in fact says so right in the rules. they can only block ISP directed, AND only if directed at him.

[Library Ogre]

I think the suggestion of a psi-nullifier is an interesting one. While it's not specifically covered, how would a psi-nullifier's powers interact with something that is psionic in nature, but in-place, innate, and constant (like a bursters immunity to fire, or a psi-stalker's psychic tracking)?

the null has no effect, in fact says so right in the rules. they can only block ISP directed, AND only if directed at him.

Bah. I haven't seen a copy of Psyscape in five years. Something similar, however, would serve.

[Kagashi]

There should be no reason to kill such a being. No GM worth anything would ever allow such a horribly mistreated twist of the rules.

[Riftmaker]

Phase weapons nuff said

[Nekira Sudacne]

I think the suggestion of a psi-nullifier is an interesting one. While it's not specifically covered, how would a psi-nullifier's powers interact with something that is psionic in nature, but in-place, innate, and constant (like a bursters immunity to fire, or a psi-stalker's psychic tracking)?

the null has no effect, in fact says so right in the rules. they can only block ISP directed, AND only if directed at him.

Bah. I haven't seen a copy of Psyscape in five years. Something similar, however, would serve.

but there is nothing simliar anywhere in the game.

[finn69]

there is the nega psychic as well as the psi-nullifier.

[Nekira Sudacne]

there is the nega psychic as well as the psi-nullifier.

the psi-nullifier is what I just proved couldn't stop the immunity to fire.

and the nega psychic can't affect psionics in the first place.

[kevinslkt]

Sorry.. but I'm pretty sure that the scarecrow would light itself on fire everytime it tried to use its burster powers. It would be something like this " The Enemy!..FOOM..Aggh I'm on FIRE! " Then it would proceed to run around like a headless chicken in search of the nearest water supply. I'd suggest using a little more common sense when rolling up characters like that.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Oh man! Don't go there again! You and I know that will happen. I was just trying to appease the adamant-minded Nekira.

no, they're not the most powerful, just unkillable. i've come up with far more powerful unkillable beings than a burster scarecrow.

in actuallity this whole adventure was hypothetical. if someone were to have taken an actual look you would find out that scarecrows arn't allowed to become bursters in the first place. their level of psionics is limited to major, none of them can be master psychics. I just decided not to point it out inititally.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Oh man! Don't go there again! You and I know that will happen. I was just trying to appease the adamant-minded Nekira.

no, they're not the most powerful, just unkillable. i've come up with far more powerful unkillable beings than a burster scarecrow.

in actuallity this whole adventure was hypothetical. if someone were to have taken an actual look you would find out that scarecrows arn't allowed to become bursters in the first place. their level of psionics is limited to major, none of them can be master psychics. I just decided not to point it out inititally.

Thought I mentioned that from the start.....

if so I missed it. regardless, I found it a stimulating intellectual exersise.

I'll still take my unkillable godling immortal over a scarecrow anyday, though.

[Library Ogre]

in actuallity this whole adventure was hypothetical. if someone were to have taken an actual look you would find out that scarecrows arn't allowed to become bursters in the first place. their level of psionics is limited to major, none of them can be master psychics. I just decided not to point it out inititally.

I don't have the CB, but they're listed as Standard, with no limitation of major psionics in Monsters and Animals.

However, I did find an interesting possibility for defeating a buster scarecrow... a single spell Level five, fire warlock magic, Blue Flame. It circumvents immunity to fire, but it is fire.

[Nekira Sudacne]

in actuallity this whole adventure was hypothetical. if someone were to have taken an actual look you would find out that scarecrows arn't allowed to become bursters in the first place. their level of psionics is limited to major, none of them can be master psychics. I just decided not to point it out inititally.

I don't have the CB, but they're listed as Standard, with no limitation of major psionics in Monsters and Animals.

However, I did find an interesting possibility for defeating a buster scarecrow... a single spell Level five, fire warlock magic, Blue Flame. It circumvents immunity to fire, but it is fire.

guess they changed it in Rifts then and sinse bursters arn't in palladium fantasy...

if it does cold damage, then scarecrows are immune under their own natural immunity to it. if it's still considered fire damage, then it's covered by immunity to fire, even if it is cold fire. it's one or the other, and scarecrows immune to both.

[Library Ogre]

guess they changed it in Rifts then and sinse bursters arn't in palladium fantasy...

if it does cold damage, then scarecrows are immune under their own natural immunity to it. if it's still considered fire damage, then it's covered by immunity to fire, even if it is cold fire. it's one or the other, and scarecrows immune to both.

So what it really comes down to is disabling his psychic powers.

Mind Wipe or Mental Block (Mind Bleeder) might work; they don't specifically mention psychic powers, but they don't specifically disbar using them against psychic powers, either (though, again, scarecrows are supposed to be immune to attacks which affect the human mind... my argument to that would be that the examples they give are mostly psycho-somatic, not direct, mind-only affects).

Similarly, Someone Makes Them from TtGD, or Mindshatter from the BoM would work to disable them, but its hideously expensive and time consuming, and has the same weakness of their apparent immunity to mind magic.

Warped Space (10th level invocation) has a 5% chance of negating psionics, but I doubt anyone wants to cast it 20 times to get that one chance.

Transformation (15th level invocation) would essentially remake the beast into something other than a scarecrow, disabiling its natural abilities for a few days. You don't, in that case, necessarily disable its psionic powers, but you manage the opposite... you can kill it through other means.

It occurs to me, however, that one thing magic has not done is develop anti-psionic capabilities... spells which will specifically disrupt or defend against psionics. This seems a grave oversight.

Right now, I'm just finding it an interesting intellectual excercise to kill the damn thing.

[Nekira Sudacne]

guess they changed it in Rifts then and sinse bursters arn't in palladium fantasy...

if it does cold damage, then scarecrows are immune under their own natural immunity to it. if it's still considered fire damage, then it's covered by immunity to fire, even if it is cold fire. it's one or the other, and scarecrows immune to both.

So what it really comes down to is disabling his psychic powers.

Mind Wipe or Mental Block (Mind Bleeder) might work; they don't specifically mention psychic powers, but they don't specifically disbar using them against psychic powers, either (though, again, scarecrows are supposed to be immune to attacks which affect the human mind... my argument to that would be that the examples they give are mostly psycho-somatic, not direct, mind-only affects).

yea, because mind wiping dosn't affect the mind, and effects something other than the mind...not really

Similarly, Someone Makes Them from TtGD, or Mindshatter from the BoM would work to disable them, but its hideously expensive and time consuming, and has the same weakness of their apparent immunity to mind magic.

agreed, still immune

Warped Space (10th level invocation) has a 5% chance of negating psionics, but I doubt anyone wants to cast it 20 times to get that one chance.

forgot about that. a possibility . however sinse there's always multiple effects per casting, and with the current rules, it'd be damn hard for you to actually hit the scarecrow after that regardless

Transformation (15th level invocation) would essentially remake the beast into something other than a scarecrow, disabiling its natural abilities for a few days. You don't, in that case, necessarily disable its psionic powers, but you manage the opposite... you can kill it through other means.

a good thought, however the text makes it so the spell only works on _humans_. scarecrows are not humans.

It occurs to me, however, that one thing magic has not done is develop anti-psionic capabilities... spells which will specifically disrupt or defend against psionics. This seems a grave oversight.

disagreed, honestly. it's palladiums version of seperation of powers. plus it's questionable rather magics actually capable of affecting psionics in the first place.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Hit him with a TW bus.

does damage but cannot kill.

[Library Ogre]

yea, because mind wiping dosn't affect the mind, and effects something other than the mind...not really

Once again, I'm going by the examples they give. The examples they have in Monsters and Animals are "clouds and gases, paralysis, blind, mute, age, sickness, and even life drain." All of those are psychosomatic in nature... they don't list the traditional mind-magics like fear, charms, or anything of that nature.

And if you want to get nit-picky, they only list an immunity to magic, not psionics. So I can freely use Bio-manipulate on the scarecrow to paralyze him, but I can't use Minor Curse to make him sick. And, therefore, I can Mental Block his psychic powers.

forgot about that. a possibility . however sinse there's always multiple effects per casting, and with the current rules, it'd be damn hard for you to actually hit the scarecrow after that regardless

I agree; impractical, but if it's the only tool you have, it's the only tool you have... you make those talismans and pound him until he burns.

a good thought, however the text makes it so the spell only works on _humans_. scarecrows are not humans.

No, but you're being incredibly literal. Therefore, either Transformation works, because it does not bar affecting the supernatural, or Mental Block works, because scarecrows aren't immune to mind-affecting psionics.

disagreed, honestly. it's palladiums version of seperation of powers. plus it's questionable rather magics actually capable of affecting psionics in the first place.

I don't see any reason they shouldn't be capable of doing so, however. I tend to approach things from a very simulationist POV... make the game world make sense. Psychic powers are certainly capable of detecting and influencing magic (q.v. the psi-nullifier and the nega-psychic), so why shouldn't magic be capable of the same?

[Nekira Sudacne]

yea, because mind wiping dosn't affect the mind, and effects something other than the mind...not really

Once again, I'm going by the examples they give. The examples they have in Monsters and Animals are "clouds and gases, paralysis, blind, mute, age, sickness, and even life drain." All of those are psychosomatic in nature... they don't list the traditional mind-magics like fear, charms, or anything of that nature.

And if you want to get nit-picky, they only list an immunity to magic, not psionics. So I can freely use Bio-manipulate on the scarecrow to paralyze him, but I can't use Minor Curse to make him sick. And, therefore, I can Mental Block his psychic powers.

a good thought, however the text makes it so the spell only works on _humans_. scarecrows are not humans.

No, but you're being incredibly literal. Therefore, either Transformation works, because it does not bar affecting the supernatural, or Mental Block works, because scarecrows aren't immune to mind-affecting psionics.

agreed. psionics would work. point taken.

disagreed, honestly. it's palladiums version of seperation of powers. plus it's questionable rather magics actually capable of affecting psionics in the first place.

I don't see any reason they shouldn't be capable of doing so, however. I tend to approach things from a very simulationist POV... make the game world make sense. Psychic powers are certainly capable of detecting and influencing magic (q.v. the psi-nullifier and the nega-psychic), so why shouldn't magic be capable of the same?

Lets take this to the thread you made on teh subject, shall we?

[Library Ogre]

Lets take this to the thread you made on teh subject, shall we?

Why I made it, Neki-chan.