Attacks per melee

[sinestus]

Heroes Unlimited 2nd ed... i do believe has the most comprehensive, up to date, stuff...

tho splicers might have newer...

personally, i base most of mine off HU 'cause it was composed excellently...

[Dustin Fireblade]

Note that three attacks would be impossible if attacks per melee was considered 2 for base + 2 for combat skill.

Assasin HtH only give's one attack at first level, thus three attacks.

The "two for base" has now been included in all HTH training in Splicers at least, and i'd guess the latest version of the Rifts GMG and BtS2 as well.

[Colonel Wolfe]

+2 attacks for Existance was added in around the 10th or 11th printing of Rifts in 1998ish... Along with the first incarnation of -10 to Dodge...
This was also Changed some by the RGMG...
to keep up to date with Palladium you need to own the most Current Edition of Rifts or the newest RPG, BTS2 & Spluicers will be most up to date.. but may be flawed compared to rifts... Since BTS is SDC, and Splicers was not written by Kev Sim...
I think the 4th Edition of the Rifts GMG migth have the most up to date Palladium system in it.

[Killer Cyborg]

Ok, I've been reading over the forums and noticed in the FAQ section a couple of discussions on attacks per melee basically indicating that the combat attacks per melee are to be added to the two base attacks per melee that all characters start with. Now, admittedly, the most recent source books I have are palladium frpg (fourth printing, 2000) and rifts (seventh printing, 1994), but I am failing to find any support for this notion.

The following are various indications that say to me that the value listed under hand to hand is the starting amount of attacks, not a bonus to the number.
1 - p35 rifts "hand to hand combat" under combat terms and p46 pfrpg under "no hand to hand combat skills" both list that players unskilled in combat get only 1 attack per round.
2 - p37 rifts, p47 pfrpg both have no + (plus) listed next to the number of attacks at level 1.
3 - p256 rifts, coalition grunt and headhunter both have hand to hand expert and 2 attacks per melee. same page, SAMAS pilot has 4 hand to hand attacks combining his hth and his combat armor training. none of these indicate any bonus attacks per melee
4 - in rifts p37 it lists that all player characters start with 2 hand to hand attacks (under psychic combat), BUT in the more recent pfrpg 2e on page 38 under the same section (psychic combat) the reminder now says "Most player characters start off with two attacks per 15 second melee round. Additional attacks may be acquired as one advances in hand to hand combat experience and from the boxing skill, special bonuses or magic. The average person, not trained in combat, will only have one attack per melee round. Experienced fighters will have an average of three to six attacks per melee, sometimes more. " Note that three attacks would be impossible if attacks per melee was considered 2 for base + 2 for combat skill.

I was wondering if there is specific more recent material that would contradict the information in these books, since the statement in the FAQ seemed awfully certain that attacks = 2 for base + 2 for combat.

You are exactly correct in your assessment, and there is even more evidence out there that backs it up even more.

BUT Palladium claims that the rules are that everybody gets 2 attacks per melee in addition to the base number of attacks for HTH combat skills (or you get the exact base number listed in the Rifts GMG), and they furthermore claim that it has always been this way.
They stick to this claim in the face of all logic and reason to the contrary, falling back on answers like "Not all NPCs are made using the standard rules of character creation" and other stuff that makes no sense in context.

Basically, they're trying a Jedi-Mind Trick on us:
"These are not the attacks you are looking for..."

[Levi]

...I think I'm just going to stick to the lower attacks per melee for now anyway

That’s a good call. If not, you throw the balance of bonus attacks for some character classes and the spell casting speeds right out the window. They are already sitting on the ledge…

i.e.:
Old way = average fighter at low level has 3 attacks and a mage at low level has two spells per melee. Fair enough.
New way= average fighter at low level has 5 attacks and a mage at low level has two spells per melee. Not fair at all!!!

Old way = average character 3 attacks, character with bonus attack has 4. He is 33% faster than other characters. Cool.
New way = average character 5 attacks, character with bonus attack has 6. He is only 20% faster than other characters. Not as cool.

[Yisterwald]

...I think I'm just going to stick to the lower attacks per melee for now anyway

That’s a good call. If not, you throw the balance of bonus attacks for some character classes and the spell casting speeds right out the window. They are already sitting on the ledge…

i.e.:
Old way = average fighter at low level has 3 attacks and a mage at low level has two spells per melee. Fair enough.
New way= average fighter at low level has 5 attacks and a mage at low level has two spells per melee. Not fair at all!!!

Old way = average character 3 attacks, character with bonus attack has 4. He is 33% faster than other characters. Cool.
New way = average character 5 attacks, character with bonus attack has 6. He is only 20% faster than other characters. Not as cool.

Agreed. I stand in staunch opposition to Two Attacks For Living. Not because of any rules inconsistency, not out of unwillingness to change, but because it just isn't as fun.

[Sentinel]

The two attacks for the living is for "common races" Humans, elves, dwarves etc.

Races such as Rahuman start with 4 attacks (Do not enjoy the 2 attacks for the living as they have 4) and all further attacks are then earned via their OCC and HTH skills.

According to the Conversion Book 1 Revised, Rahu Men add 4 attacks to whatever HtH they select as well as boxing , or as an unskilled fighter they have 4 attacks.
"An Experienced Rahuman will have between 7-10 attacks per melee."

[Omote]

I stick with the "lower attack" numbers because frankly it has workd for years in my games.

.......................................Omote
FPQ

[Killer Cyborg]

Like others have said, adding the two does nothing but screw magic users over.

Nah, it also screws over most animals and monsters...

[Sentinel]

Like others have said, adding the two does nothing but screw magic users over. If you did use them, throwing in the PPE channeling rules could be used to offset the difference for mages.

I don't use the PPE channeling, but I do allow a magic user to cast a spell (levels 1-6) at a rate equal to their HtH attacks.

[Marcethus]

I use the two for living and the PPE channelling rules and it works fine.

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

4 - in rifts p37 it lists that all player characters start with 2 hand to hand attacks (under psychic combat), BUT in the more recent pfrpg 2e on page 38 under the same section (psychic combat) the reminder now says "Most player characters start off with two attacks per 15 second melee round. Additional attacks may be acquired as one advances in hand to hand combat experience and from the boxing skill, special bonuses or magic. The average person, not trained in combat, will only have one attack per melee round. Experienced fighters will have an average of three to six attacks per melee, sometimes more. "

A lot of people look to this as evidence that there was always 2 attacks for living. but they also fail to notice that all PCCs have a HTH type, so they all have 2 HtH attacks per melee without boxing or leveling. it's in the psichic combat section so relates only to psychic combat.

I pointed this out in a thread in the rifts forum in mid last year and the thread stopped very quickly there after.

[Entiago]

yup, IMO the 2 attacks for the living was made just for RIFTS and their "power gamers". I seen no mention of it in the PFRPG, so therefore it does not get used (in my games).

[Killer Cyborg]

yup, IMO the 2 attacks for the living was made just for RIFTS and their "power gamers". I seen no mention of it in the PFRPG, so therefore it does not get used (in my games).

It comes from Heroes Unlimited.
It was not present in Rifts until 4-5 books after the main book.