Cyberknight O.C.C. bonuses too much?

[keir451]

I recently rolled up a Cyber-knight just for lark, exploring a concept that came to mind and as I was totalling the bonuses from skills, etc., my base rolls increased drastically.
To be fair my rolls were pretty high; IQ: 15, ME: 20, MA: 21, PS: 23, PP: 22, PE: 21, PB:17, Spd: 19.
So you can see that I'm starting off fairly high to begin with before selecting skills. The pertinent skills here are the physical ones since they are the ones that, as we all know, provide the extra bonuses.
Just from O.C.C. skills I get Body Building, Climbing, and Gymnastics. So already we have a +2 to P.S. from both Body Building and Gymnastics, with an extra +1 to P.P. and +2 to P.E. from Gymnastics, then I add three more physical skills, in this case Boxing, Kick Boxing and Running. So we get another +2 to P.S. (boxing), an extra +1 to P.S. and P.E. (Kick boxing) plus another +1 to P.E., and 4D4 Spd (Running). Already we're up to a +7 to P.S. (great for increasing P.S. if you've got a really low roll), a respectable +4 to P.E. and an average +1 to P.P.. Not too bad right? It can make a
Now we get into the actual meat of things, the O.C.C. bonuses. Under Cyber-Knight bonuses they get "+1D4 to M.A., M.E., P.S., P.P., P.E. and Spd. attributes". My original bonuses now total: +3 to M.E., +2 to M.A., +9 top P.S., +3 to P.P., +6 to P.E., and +12 to Spd..

We already get the bonus on the original dice roll if we get a 16, 17, or 18. Then we get the bonuses from any Physical skills, that should be enough. Now admittedly the extra 1D4 bonuses can make a series of bad stat rolls much better, but I think maybe they're just a little too much.
Thoughts?

[Killer Cyborg]

Depends on what you expect from a CK, I guess.

[Mack]

To be fair my rolls were pretty high; IQ: 15, ME: 20, MA: 21, PS: 23, PP: 22, PE: 21, PB:17, Spd: 19.

That's an understatement. Those rolls are astronomical.

Roughly a 1 in 276 quadrillion chance with the standard rules.

[Warshield73]

To be fair my rolls were pretty high; IQ: 15, ME: 20, MA: 21, PS: 23, PP: 22, PE: 21, PB:17, Spd: 19.

That's an understatement. Those rolls are astronomical.

Roughly a 1 in 276 quadrillion chance with the standard rules.

Agreed. A Vagabond with these attributes would be pretty tough.

Now, the Cyber Knight is tough. Lots of bonuses, lots of skills and not a lot of limitations but I have had a Cyber Knight in almost every Rifts Earth group I have run and they have never been overwhelming or over powered.

[Vincent Takeda]

I agree. The cyberknight's bonuses are not in any way mind blowing. Curious what method was used to roll up base attributes though... 3d6 plus exploding 6's doesnt produce those kinds of numbers. Cyberknight bonuses will seem reasonable when the base attribute method isn't already producing stratoshperical results. I agree with OP that based on whatever system they're using for base attribute rolls, cyberknight bonuses seem superfluous. The base attributes of this character are what I'd expect *after* the physical skills and cyberknight bonuses have been applied. Certainly not before.

[keir451]

I agree. The cyberknight's bonuses are not in any way mind blowing. Curious what method was used to roll up base attributes though... 3d6 plus exploding 6's doesnt produce those kinds of numbers. Cyberknight bonuses will seem reasonable when the base attribute method isn't already producing stratoshperical results. I agree with OP that based on whatever system they're using for base attribute rolls, cyberknight bonuses seem superfluous. The base attributes of this character are what I'd expect *after* the physical skills and cyberknight bonuses have been applied. Certainly not before.

I used 4D6 and drop the lowest die. I agree that the rolls were a little extreme, but they're not outside of what is possible. A roll of 3D6 where you get an 18 has the potential to become anything from a 19 to a 24 after your extra D6 roll. Also, for some weird reason, my dice tend to roll high on average. So I often wind up with astronomical scores that I then adjust to better fit the character image in my head, or my GM says "Go with it." and adjusts the campaign so I'm NOT the "biggest, baddest thing" around (typically there are MUCH, MUCH, MUCH worse things I encounter).
As I said before, I can see that with lower rolls the bonuses are more beneficial and not too much. However, the old CK OCC worked just fine without the extra 1D4 to the aforementioned stats. The boost from physical skills was more than enough to offset most low rolls in most cases. The rest fell into the range of how well one plays the character.
In this particular instance I would probably drop the O.C.C. bonuses and just go with the skills bonuses, after switching some of the numbers around to different locations or possibly discarding some of the higher rolls and re-rolling the stats entirely once I discussed it with my GM.

[Curbludgeon]

By my blackout math, the odds of rolling a 16 or higher 7 times in one stat line using 4d6 drop lowest are ~1.6 million to 1. Using an example reliant on such is in poor form. Cyberknights have a good skillset and Zen Combat is a little wonky, but a few 1d4s don't really effect things that much.

[Vincent Takeda]

I used 4D6 and drop the lowest die. I

Woof. Well that explains it. The odds of getting a 16 out of a 4d6 drop lowest roll is like what... 7%... So yeah. More than double the odds of each attribute exploding even on dice that don't roll particularly well. Really no need to do 4d6 drop lowest in this particular system. So many ways to boost stats and they all stack. No point in fluffin the base.

[ShadowLogan]

However, the old CK OCC worked just fine without the extra 1D4 to the aforementioned stats. The boost from physical skills was more than enough to offset most low rolls in most cases. The rest fell into the range of how well one plays the character.

RMB pg63 just below the bold attribute requirements IS a bold section for "Special Bonuses", which is virtually identical to RUE pg63's Special OCC Training and Bonuses. The only difference I can see between them is that RUE has added PP to the bonus list, and the presentation format and labeling.

[Hotrod]

Cyber-Knights are supposed to be a potent hybrid class, and the training described in the CK sourcebook and RUE seems to justify significant bonuses. I'm somewhat skeptical that such bonuses would drive up ordinary attribute rolls into excessively high territories. The bonus that you'll likely use the most out of all of those attributes is from P.P., and that's the lowest bonus of them all. M.E. is nice for I.S.P. and occasional psionic resists, P.E. is nice for fighting magic users, P.S. is pointless for anything other than S.D.C. combat, P.B. and M.A. are more about complementing your character's dialogue than anything else, and Spd is rarely used for anything in most games.

I've contemplated trying to make an NPC Cyber Knight generator, but I'm very hesitant to do so. The problem with CK bonuses isn't that they're too great, but rather that they're too situational. Aside from the fact that I generally dislike situational bonuses, Zen Combat as written is a broken, unworkable messthat quickly breaks down in practice.

[Mack]

I used 4D6 and drop the lowest die.

With that method, the average attribute would be 12.8 (including bonus dies).

Rolling above the average 8 of 8 times is a 1 in 256 chance.
Rolling the high stats listed is a 1 in 80 trillion chance.

[Curbludgeon]

Mack, would you consider showing a little bit of the math on that? I know it's a tall order but, if humans actually used a percentile skill system, the mean Mathematics:Basic rating would be an obscenity. A stickied forum thread on basic statistics would to my mind be ideal, but I could see that being poorly received.

[Hotrod]

Yeah, the original attribute rolls are astronomically unlikely if the dice weren't loaded. Thus, the OP presents a bad basis for comparing the Cyber Knight O.C.C. with others. A better approach would be to compare the bonuses of the Cyber-Knight with those of other RUE O.C.C.'s.

[jingizu999]

Cyber-Knights are supposed to be a potent hybrid class, and the training described in the CK sourcebook and RUE seems to justify significant bonuses.

Exactly.

Any time I need to evaluate a new OCC/RCC/PCC/?CC I follow the same procedure. I arbitrarily maximize all stats without exploding dice (ie 18 for base human), and list out the class bonuses with HP/SDC, PPE, ISP, and any lvl 1 special ability. Then I compare that stat block to 3 stat blocks I keep for comparison at 3 power levels. The Rogue Scholar for low power, the Juicer for mid power, and the Godling for high power. One quick glance and you get an aproximation of where a class lies.

Look at the Cyber-Knight. He is a skilled warrior, usually psychic, who has undergone intense training. He should be in line with the Juicer. Comparing the two, the CK has more stats with bonuses, but those bonuses are lower than the Juicer's. The CK has less than 1/3 the HP and 1/6 the SDC. This is offset with permanent MDC armor that may or may not stop a shot (AR 16). The CK has 1 less bonus attack, half the parry dodge and strike, and half the bonus damage, but starts with HTH martial arts, while the Juicer has to upgrade from Expert. I have not included bonuses from OCC skills, because both classes can take any physical skill, making it a wash. The CK has a psi sword that is matched in damage by the Juicer's Power Punch at first level, but the psi sword will grow with time, the punch will not. Lastly, the CK is likely to be a psychic which will raise his power level, leaving the Juicer to compensate with gear.

Cyber-Knight
IQ:18 ME:22 MA:22 PS:22 PP:22 PE:22 PB:18 SPD:18
HP:22 SDC:64
PPE:36 ISP:76 (if Master)
+1 attack/melee, +3 initiative, +3 perception, +2 pull punch, +2 disarm, +1 vs horror factor, +4 parry/dodge, +4 strike, +7 damage
Cyber Armor AR:16 MDC 50
Psi Sword 1D6 MD
hth martial arts
physical any
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Juicer
IQ:18 ME:18 MA:18 PS:30 PP:18 PE:30 PB:18 SPD:98
HP:70 SDC:424
PPE: ISP:
Augmented Strength
+2 attacks/melee, +4 initiative, +2 perception, +2 disarm, +2 pull punch, +3 roll, auto dodge +1,+8 parry/dodge, +8 strike, +15 damage
+4 v psi, +6 v mind control, +8 v toxins, Heal 4x faster, +20% v coma/death,
Power Punch 1D6 MD
hth expert (upgradeable)
physical any

TL;DR No, there is nothing wrong with the Cyber Knight's bonuses.

[keir451]

I guess we'll just have to disagree. Yes, the CK is a powerful class, but it doesn't need the extra 1d4 bonus to achieve that. Between the bonuses from physical skills and the CK's psionics the class is more than powerful enough. The bonuses from skills are more than enough to raise the stats high enough w/out any additional bonuses.
The Zen combat ability is too wonky and ridiculous to be worth anything.

[Hotrod]

The Zen combat ability is too wonky and ridiculous to be worth anything.

Personally, I'd just give them an advanced hand-to-hand like Commando and throw the anti-tech Zen Combat out the window.

[Curbludgeon]

In the past I used the band-aid of giving the CK Intuitive Combat and Telekinetic Leap at no I.S.P. cost, which could be used at the same time as other psychic powers. Changing the H2H to Commando gets an Autododge back in the mix, but doesn't particularly jive with the pseudo-Jedi flavor of the class.

[Hotrod]

In the past I used the band-aid of giving the CK Intuitive Combat and Telekinetic Leap at no I.S.P. cost, which could be used at the same time as other psychic powers. Changing the H2H to Commando gets an Autododge back in the mix, but doesn't particularly jive with the pseudo-Jedi flavor of the class.

That's a viable approach, too. Personally, I prefer the way an advanced hand-to-hand allows for more progression of abilities/bonuses. In that respect, Kendo or Zanji might also work, but Commando is an RUE skill and handier. I agree that thematically, a commando-focused skill isn't a great fit, but you could always call it "Hand-to-Hand: Cyber-Knight" and have it count as Hand-to-Hand: Commando, Kendo, or Zanji.

[ShadowLogan]

In the past I used the band-aid of giving the CK Intuitive Combat and Telekinetic Leap at no I.S.P. cost, which could be used at the same time as other psychic powers. Changing the H2H to Commando gets an Autododge back in the mix, but doesn't particularly jive with the pseudo-Jedi flavor of the class.

That's a viable approach, too. Personally, I prefer the way an advanced hand-to-hand allows for more progression of abilities/bonuses. In that respect, Kendo or Zanji might also work, but Commando is an RUE skill and handier. I agree that thematically, a commando-focused skill isn't a great fit, but you could always call it "Hand-to-Hand: Cyber-Knight" and have it count as Hand-to-Hand: Commando, Kendo, or Zanji.

I'd just toss out Zen Combat starting at Level 3, Level 1 does nothing (actually its base ability) and Level 2 gives WP: Paired and WP: Shield. A case might be made for Level 3 to remain, but starting Level 4 is when Zen Combat gets wonky and should be ignored.

[Hotrod]

In the past I used the band-aid of giving the CK Intuitive Combat and Telekinetic Leap at no I.S.P. cost, which could be used at the same time as other psychic powers. Changing the H2H to Commando gets an Autododge back in the mix, but doesn't particularly jive with the pseudo-Jedi flavor of the class.

That's a viable approach, too. Personally, I prefer the way an advanced hand-to-hand allows for more progression of abilities/bonuses. In that respect, Kendo or Zanji might also work, but Commando is an RUE skill and handier. I agree that thematically, a commando-focused skill isn't a great fit, but you could always call it "Hand-to-Hand: Cyber-Knight" and have it count as Hand-to-Hand: Commando, Kendo, or Zanji.

I'd just toss out Zen Combat starting at Level 3, Level 1 does nothing (actually its base ability) and Level 2 gives WP: Paired and WP: Shield. A case might be made for Level 3 to remain, but starting Level 4 is when Zen Combat gets wonky and should be ignored.

Agreed, mostly. There seems to be an emphasis in the newer version of the CK on melee combat as a preferred mode. If that's the case, then it makes sense to give the CK some potent bonuses against high-tech, mostly ranged combat. This is what really bugs me about Zen Combat; the anti-tech intent is clear, but the rules as written are unworkable.

I'd rather like to see a Version 3 of the Cyber Knight that presents a workable anti-tech Zen Combat as one of several optional sets (or paths) of specialized powers to select and develop over time; thus some CKs might specialize in anti-tech, and those who fought for Tolkeen would fall into this category. Others might specialize in fighting other categories of foes (supernatural creatures, magic, or psionics) and select powers accordingly (increased resistances, special attacks like the Demon Death Blow from the Palladin OCC in Fantasy, active disruptive powers that negate these foes' innate advantages).

[keir451]

In the past I used the band-aid of giving the CK Intuitive Combat and Telekinetic Leap at no I.S.P. cost, which could be used at the same time as other psychic powers. Changing the H2H to Commando gets an Autododge back in the mix, but doesn't particularly jive with the pseudo-Jedi flavor of the class.

That's a viable approach, too. Personally, I prefer the way an advanced hand-to-hand allows for more progression of abilities/bonuses. In that respect, Kendo or Zanji might also work, but Commando is an RUE skill and handier. I agree that thematically, a commando-focused skill isn't a great fit, but you could always call it "Hand-to-Hand: Cyber-Knight" and have it count as Hand-to-Hand: Commando, Kendo, or Zanji.

I'd just toss out Zen Combat starting at Level 3, Level 1 does nothing (actually its base ability) and Level 2 gives WP: Paired and WP: Shield. A case might be made for Level 3 to remain, but starting Level 4 is when Zen Combat gets wonky and should be ignored.

Agreed, mostly. There seems to be an emphasis in the newer version of the CK on melee combat as a preferred mode. If that's the case, then it makes sense to give the CK some potent bonuses against high-tech, mostly ranged combat. This is what really bugs me about Zen Combat; the anti-tech intent is clear, but the rules as written are unworkable.

I'd rather like to see a Version 3 of the Cyber Knight that presents a workable anti-tech Zen Combat as one of several optional sets (or paths) of specialized powers to select and develop over time; thus some CKs might specialize in anti-tech, and those who fought for Tolkeen would fall into this category. Others might specialize in fighting other categories of foes (supernatural creatures, magic, or psionics) and select powers accordingly (increased resistances, special attacks like the Demon Death Blow from the Palladin OCC in Fantasy, active disruptive powers that negate these foes' innate advantages).

I can agree with this, for the most part. I, too, think a HtH just for Ck's might be good, but see no need for an anti-tech side of it. You can add in Auto Dodge at a set level like Commando, w/out actually giving the CK a skill that s/he would have no reasonable way of knowing w/out having been trained by either CS Special Forces or a SEAL from the New Navy.
I'd like to see W.P. Paired added to the O.C.C. Skills list (which I do anyway) instead of being tied to the HtH, or if tied to the HtH have it be at first level. I also like the idea of Intuitive Combat and TK Leap at no ISP cost, these allow the CK to BE the cool "monk type" class that is implied in the description.

[Hotrod]

If you interpret the "attack while moving without penalty" in its most generous way, you could use it to allow CKs to essentially attack while dodging. This isn't an automatic dodge per se, but it could allow the CK to stack contests in his/her favor, which could be just as useful (and perhaps more so). Defined this way, the CK gains a unique advantage by launching simultaneous attacks against attackers, who cannot defend while they attack, while the CK can.

Always-on Intuitive Combat and Leap sound cool, though I'd put them in as progressive abilities in lieu of some of the Zen Combat abilities as written.

[eliakon]

Intuitive Combat is in its own way just as annoying a power as the canon combat power...
...first off you can't use IC with any other Psionic ability. So no psi-sword for you! Which makes it kind of a bad choice for a CK
Oh, and there is the issue of if it works on people with mind blocks on. Or inside a group mind block. Or all sorts of other interesting edge cases.

Honestly... I don't see what the problem with the CK as written is? If people think they need better J**i then they can just homebrew up one for their game no problem. It's not like having the CKs as written is harming the setting. Just make up your own group that has the power set you want for your version of the 'nifty psychic knights' and run with it.