Palladium Books' crowdfunding efforts

[Steve Dubya]

I think that it would be difficult to argue that Palladium has had some issues with regards to its more recent crowdfunding attempts, and it might be useful to discuss what sorts of missteps are seeming to be made and what sorts of things might possibly prevent such missteps from happening on any further crowdfunding endeavors.

We'll start with the in-house crowdfunding of NG-1 & 2, and it seems like the big misstep here was the estimation of completion. Each completed manuscript was slated to be believed to take about 4-6 weeks before it would be ready to go to the printer; clearly with the crowdfunding effort for NG-2 finishing up right before August of 2012, and it now being announced that it is complete, there has been a disconnect somewhere.
I would also argue that postponing work on NG-1 & 2 for the vampires sourcebook was a misstep, especially given the estimated completion dates.

With regards to the RRT Kickstarter, there seem to be several missteps that are being made:

• Estimated completion dates have not been met and have been slid back several times
• Communication to the backers since the project funded has become much more sporadic compared to when it was still funding

With regard to communication in general, it would seem that this is both the easiest to modify on Palladium's end - both in terms of the items produced solely in-house as well as those collaborative projects. I find it very difficult to believe that, at least once a week, a paragraph blurb on where the given project might be would be out of the question to be provided to the backers. Heck, if it's a real issue the Weekly Updates could be scaled back to monthly updates, because - quite honestly - it doesn't seem that things progress rapidly enough on multiple projects to warrant that sort of more generalized announcement (which ends up being more and less copied from the previous week).
I would also argue that there needs to be more "Show, Don't Tell" with regard to the communication. It's fantastic that others are the office are really excited about the section that just got written - how about a couple of paragraph sample of the writing? It's great that Kevin loves the art that's come in for the most recent book - how about a low dpi example?
For RRT, this can be broken down even more - as there are more "moving parts" to the process - and pictures of work on the molds, test sprues (even failed one), and overall what is happening where with regard to production could be further broken down. If there's a delay because they ran out of Gray #10 plastic pellets - that should be something shared up front.
Folks seem to be a lot more forgiving when they are made aware of possible issues as they arrive as opposed to after the fact.

That brings us to the second big misstep, and that's the estimated date of completion for all of these projects. For RRT, this is more understandable, given that it's a new endeavor for both Palladium & Ninja Division, and this is a licensed product thus involving input from Harmony Gold, etc. However, given all that, how realistic was the initial completion date given? Did Palladium or ND or HG even have any idea since the first revision of the completion was actually bumping the date earlier vice later?
As for the in-house productions, there doesn't seem to be particularly compelling reason why their estimated completion dates were so far off. The manuscripts were reported as being complete. This sort of production is what Palladium does - book production has been their business for the last 30 years. They should be getting better as estimating how long projects take to complete, not the opposite. The easiest fix I could suggest here is to look at how long it took to produce the last 5 books of similar length, average, and round up. That's probably going to be more realistic, and if it turns out that production takes less time than estimated, then - surprise- the book ships early!
How amazing would it be for Palladium to routinely announce that they are actually ahead of their estimated production schedule?

There are other ways I would recommend Palladium increase in-house production - parallel lines of development, with distinct Line Managers would be the first - but I think it's more productive to focus on changes that could be made without significantly impacting Palladium's current operational paradigm.

What other aspects would best be addressed for current and future crowdfunding attempts?

[Jorel]

I think this is a very valid topic and it would be great if the staff at Palladium would actually weigh in and converse with the people about this subject.

[kaid]

The first crowd sourced thing was lemuria and I am not sure if the actual turn around on that but it was pretty close to their estimated timeframe.

I think the lessons of NG1-NG2 is if you are going to do a crowdsourced thing make sure it is the very next thing you are working on and not have something before it such as the vampire source book in the process. The less things in the pipe when doing one of these means less things that can come up to bite them on the booty and delay progress.

Also I think and kevin himself mentioned is beware feature creep. Both NG1 NG2 are going to wind up being significantly bigger than the original projected sizes. I think both were originally listed as 190 page source books and NG1 went to 224 pages and NG2 is like 250ish. When all is said and done its is more like we are getting NG1-NG2 and NG3 as well content wise but it may have been wiser to stick to the original projected size levels and if you have enough awesome content to warrant a third book then do it as a third book each one being more managable size wise and easier to keep closer to the projected time frames.

[Jorel]

I think the answer you'll see when suggesting NG being broken into 3 books was there were descriptions accompanying the Insider offers and as soon as you take that material out people will feel ripped off and mislead like when the took the Cosmo Knight stuff out of Heroes of the Megaverse.

[Forar]

This seems like a very reasonable review of the last 3 crowdfunding projects PB has undertaken (and continues to work on).

Even as someone who did not get in on the NG1/2 projects (I didn't find out about them until long after), it's heartening to see those books completing and going out to those who helped finance them, even at significant delays. Nearly 2 years for delivery (assuming NG2 will start getting to folks in the coming months, shipping times pending)? That's something quite understandable to be frustrated with.

While full delivery for RRT is only projected at 1 year late (assuming they can complete 2/3 of the models in a mere 4 month period, which I do not feel is a realistic time frame), the sheer scope/scale of the money and backer numbers involved makes it, in my eyes, a rather massive issue, and a place where great harm might be done to future endeavors. Not to minimize the money spent and the frustration felt by the book backers, but, well, we're talking literal orders of magnitude in difference on each.

All told, it appears that those three projects will pay off in terms of injecting an influx of cash to the company that needed it to make projects happen. I'm glad this has occurred.

However, I feel that this success raises the likelihood of them choosing to do so again (a second and/or third RRT KS (maybe combining series 2 and 3 into one project?), Rifts Tactics, etc), and it'd be very nice if they learned from the errors that have been made with these last 3.

Properly assessing realistic time lines (and building in time to account for contingencies) and communicating with the backers regularly and honestly would be a fine start.

[Scott Gibbons]

Excellent topic introduction, Steve President George W. Bush!

1) I must agree with the sentiment of "work on the current project before starting another", but there does have to be some leeway given for applying that rule of thumb to reality - sometimes good opportunities come along that are time-sensitive, so must be taken advantage of right then. The best example I can think of is "I'm going to finish my college degree before anything else - oh wait, I've found the perfect girl/guy who wants to get married but doesn't want to wait 4-6 years to do so." Same thing with business - sometimes there is an opportunity that just needs to come first. (No judgments here on my part about whether I think the course of action that Kevin/PB has actually taken warrants an exception like this.)

2) I agree that better communication could go a long way toward relieving some of building fan pressure.

3) PB is the public face of RRT, but my question is 'is PB the major movers on this project at this point in time?' My understanding was that PB's part was in getting all the parties together, promoting the product and being the storefront for selling it to the masses. I though that Ninja Division was the one with the mini development/manufacturing experience, and thus they were the ones who would be doing the heavy lifting on the project during this phase. Of course, my understanding could be completely wrong, but that's how it seemed to me (and I don't want to derail this thread, so if I'm wrong please keep the answer short/succinct or tell me to go post this question elsewhere). I now return us to our regularly scheduled discussion.

[Jorel]

PB claimed they wouldn't be doing that "heavy lifting" but are clearly way more involved than they thought they would be with that. I'm not sure as the middle connecting point for all these other entities like ND and HG and even the Chinese manufacturers, why they had any reason to assume they wouldn't be fully involved in every possible angle of making this game a reality throughout this whole experience. That was naive of them if that was the case and it is clear they really didn't know how much work goes into making a product like this from scratch. Kevin should have never ever told people we might see this game in October 2013. That was a rookie move and it makes him lose serious credibility. and he is the one running this whole show, whether he wants to take responsibility or not. He and Palladium Books with him stand to make a lot of money and they'll get heaps of praise if this is successful. Why should they not have equal responsibility if it goes the other way and is a massive failure?

[Scott Gibbons]

[Kevin] and Palladium Books with him stand to make a lot of money and they'll get heaps of praise if this is successful. Why should they not have equal responsibility if it goes the other way and is a massive failure?

Agreed, though I'm not sure if they are or were ever supposed to be the main contact with the manufacturer in China - I thought that was why Ninja Division was brought in, because they had those contacts and experience.

PB claimed they wouldn't be doing that "heavy lifting" but are clearly way more involved than they thought they would be with that... That was a rookie move...

I think we all agree that Kevin and PB are rookies in this arena - I'm pretty sure Kevin would even agree. Then again, I get the feeling that they are getting a major education in it via the school-of-hard-knocks!

[Jorel]

1000% agree with that last statement.

[Jorel]

I have no problem cutting them some slack because it is their first time. I just hoped that the information given like ND doing most of the heavy lifting and them having minimum time taken away from books being made was accurate. Now that we are almost a year in it is clear neither of those things was the case.

[Kryptt]

The delays aren't the problem for many backers. It's the questionable quality of the models where PB has caused the biggest misstep. Then being told it's the only way when I've had macross models from Japan that say otherwise. The irony is both bandai macross toys/models are manufactured in China. I know I looked at my 1/60 valkyries.

As for the communications go, they can be better. Being told PB will communicate more often and then instead go MIA didn't help matters. To be fair to Wayne after seeing his last post on his FB page. I don't blame him for skipping a week. Considering how upset many backers are for him it must be like walking in front of a firing squad. Although anonther misstep I've seen from PB is the hubris that comes from some of those updates. I know I want this game. I don't need to be told it will be awesome or that your rushing it out because we want it so bad. Even GW doesn't treat their customers like that. I've dealt with GW customer service and it's one of the best I've dealt with. Their friendly and will go out of their way to make it right. At least that's been my experience. As for PB learning from their mistakes I doubt it only because I'm guessing were being marginalized as not fans of PB. The problem is if RRT takes off and brings in even more wargamers then we unhappy backers are only the tip of the iceberg. Wait till the rest of us come here to voice criticisms or dissatisfaction at the rules or product. The way this place is moderated I can only imagine how much worse this place will get. Over on dakka and warseer people who want to check out RRT are also weighting in on this project and it continues to be negative. Kevin can't just say they don't count because they aren't happy with PB. PB needs to adapt now more than ever if it's to survive.

[kaid]

I think the answer you'll see when suggesting NG being broken into 3 books was there were descriptions accompanying the Insider offers and as soon as you take that material out people will feel ripped off and mislead like when the took the Cosmo Knight stuff out of Heroes of the Megaverse.

Yes that is the real downside to that and likely why they did not go that route. I think it may also have gone over a bit better with folks if they had waited to start the crowdfunding for NG2 after NG1 was released not both almost at the same time and then have to wait a really long time for NG2.

Still looks like it should be worth the wait looking at the rundown of what is going into there looks pretty jam packed with fun stuff.

[Jorel]

I advocated that at the time as I really couldn't afford getting hit like that 2 months in a row. I had to give up a bunch of things for months to accommodate the double expense. Then to have to wait almost 2 years to see resolution of the second is pretty harsh as we see projects like Dead Reign and RRT getting pushed ahead of it. Still not sure why they had to make up am inaccurate timeline, except they maybe thought people would invest less if they said "you'll get it when you get it."

[Scott Gibbons]

Public relations is always an unpleasant minefield. I got my first education of this as a child - my father was the public contact for a cement plant in Arizona during two major projects. The first was when some physicists approached the plant to explore ways to encapsulate low-level radioactive material in their cement. The discussion had hardly gone anywhere when somehow word leaked and the self-appointed guardians of the environment went nuts. My dad was left scrambling trying to explain the project to the public, then watching his words get twisted into ever possible permutation of meaning except what he'd actually said. In the end, to stop the stream of mis-informed public protests and stream of meritless lawsuits the plant had to send the physicists packing even though the project was showing favorable results.

As bad as that was it was nothing compared to the firestorm a few years later when the plant started exploring using old tires as an alternate source of fuel. A little background: to make cement certain types of rocks are crushed to powder, mixed together and heated until they basically melt, then crushed again to become the grey powder we all know. The heating process is usually fueled by either natural gas or coal (in my dad's plant it was coal). The temperatures achieved are enough to instantly vaporize just about any carbon-based item thrown into the kiln.

So the plant decided to see if used tires (which are burned in several European plants) could be used instead of coal. Bonuses of the process would be less emissions of harmful gases than the coal they already used and getting rid of used tires -Arizona, because it's a desert, has huge piles of used tires that will never decompose but do occasionally spontaneously-combust creating huge environmental disasters.

The plant, thinking they'd learned a lesson from the earlier debacle, went out of its way to notify people of its intentions, and more importantly, the reasons why this move would be beneficial. Did that stop the willfully ignorant or those who'd already made up their minds about the project?? Not a chance. Not only was the plant subjected to a nigh-endless stream of baseless litigation, but there were actual picket-sign protests and attempts to sneak into the plant to sabotage it. My father, the public spokesperson and an engineer of many years experience, did endless interviews trying to stem the tide of bigotry with correct information; in return he was personally sued and we got threatening phone calls in the middle of the night. In the end the plant won the right to research using tires as an alternate fuel source, but the courts imposed so many restrictions and needless tests that the actually proceeding would have cost twice as much as abandoning the whole thing. And so the plant continues to burn coal to this day, and the summer after all the hub-bub died down Araizona had 3 tire-fires across the state.

So yeah, I don't blame Wayne or anyone at PB for cringing from social media. That's not an excuse - they need to communicate. I just can understand their reluctance.

[Jorel]

Thanks for the perspective. I don't envy his position in the least.

[Scott Gibbons]

Yeah, at least I was old enough to understand what was going on the second time around. I remember my parents trying to explain it to my younger brothers and sisters (8 years old down to age 3) - trying to explain to them why they couldn't go outside to play some days - not fun. At least no one has started issuing death threats that I know of.

[Jorel]

It really is a big difference between a game company and an company that can impact the environment like your dad's, so I don't see death threats in the PB future.

[Pepsi Jedi]

The first crowd sourced thing was lemuria and I am not sure if the actual turn around on that but it was pretty close to their estimated timeframe.

No. Lemuria was no where near their estimated time frame. I have a file with over 50 instances of it being mentioned in weekly updates and pushed back. I collected them together back before it actually came out. The "second time around" (As many will claim that the one over a decade ago didn't count) Started in March 0f 2011. On March 17th 2011 it was promised for Spring 2011, This would carry every week till April 21st when it was pushed back to summer. This went till May 19th, where it was announced for July 2011, June 16th it was said to be out by Gencon. June 23rd it was given a specific date of July 26th. The July 26th release date was held till July 7th. On July 14th, they slipped it back to August 22nd. The August 22nd date was held for weeks until August 11th when it said "ships soon" but further in the weekly press release you saw "Ships September". This goes on till September 8th, when they say "Early October"....

This goes on and on and on and on. Note, every week BETWEEN those weeks I've posted above had the promises of that date, till it changed. I think, for the post I was writing, i stopped at --54-- updates with dates on them for Lemuria. 54 different ones, with the date being pushed back and pushed back. The 54th was March 2012, and the book still wasn't out by the time I wrote the post with all the dates collected. I was writing a 'get it done' post. The book actually shipped April 5th.(I've got the file should anyone want a peek at it, or you can take my word.)

Note, these 50 to 60 updates weren't the entire time it was being worked on. Those were instances of it being promised by a certain time/date, in the weekly updates, for over a year.

Not trying to stir up anger or anything. People have short memories. I just saw "It was pretty close to their estimated timeframe" and, well. I know better. I didn't want anyone to read that and go "Oh yeah... it was close" Unless over a year late, with 54+ updates with the date pushed back dozens of times (Over a year) is what one considers "pretty close".

[Jorel]

How far after the Insider offer ended did it actually come out?

[Pepsi Jedi]

Not sure, that wasn't the focus of the list I compiled. I got the dates of the updates and on each, the dates the books were said to be out by, some text around each of the dates but not the entire thing or write ups. I'm unsure when, in the long line of pushbacks the 'insider offer' went up. I have all the emails but I went through over a year of them to collect what I had. lol I'm not doing it again. My point was their time frame was horribly off.

*Grins* You get the same emails I do Jorel. You find it! lol

[Jorel]

I thought you had them all compiled and maybe you knew. I shall look it up and let you know.

[Jorel]

Looks like I paid for it on Feb. 09, 2012.

[palladiumjunkie]

How far after the Insider offer ended did it actually come out?

Actually Lemuria was released within a few months after the crowd sourcing for it ended. When the crowd sourcing was announced for Lemuria, Kevin was actually stating specifically what he was doing on Lemuria. It wasn't at the printers yet, but at least it was apparent that he was actively working on it. That is the main reason that I participated in that crowd sourcing, but not the NG offers. NG1 and NG2 weren't even close. They were saying during the crowd sourcing for those that they planned on having it out around September or October of 2012 (I don't remember the exact month), but that it may be 6 weeks after that because they were still working on the other books. To me, that is Palladium speak for "We haven't started on it yet, and you'll get it when you get it". They did a great job with the Lemuria offer, but they had burnt us so many times before that, that it just wasn't worth the frustration that I figured I would inevitably experience. Just my two cents.

-Chris

[Steve Dubya]

How far after the Insider offer ended did it actually come out?

Looks like it went to the printer at the end of March 2012 and shipped the beginning of April.

[Jorel]

Looks like the pdf delivered on April 20, 2012.

[Jorel]

How far after the Insider offer ended did it actually come out?

Looks like it went to the printer at the end of March 2012 and shipped the beginning of April.

I would go by the date it officially ships, not the date it goes to the printer, but that is me. I'm not sure when I received the Hard Covers but the pdf went out a month later than they sent it to the printer if that is what your marking it by. Otherwise it was a couple weeks after the softcovers went out. Pretty sure Northern Gun 1 pdf went out much later than that.

[Jorel]

2 months wasn't bad for a turnaround, though I have no idea what point there actually at in production with Lemuria. I'm guessing they were already working on it, and it was 3rd in line after they got other projects out first.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Yeah, I posted when it actually shipped. A year after their time frame indicated when they started sending it to us every week.

I was pointing out that their time frames for the book were not pretty close, as their time frame was over a year late. One can't say "oh their time frames are close" if it was 13 or 14 months later than their first projection, with the date being pushed back for that entire year.

[palladiumjunkie]

Just to expand on what I was talking about with Northern Gun Insiders, this is from the Northern Gun 2 announcement:

We expect this product to be released in September, 6-8 weeks after its crowdfunding ends, but there could be delays of an additional 1-3 months. We don’t expect that to be the case, but you never know.

-Chris

[Jorel]

I'm talking about the time between them taking people's money and delivering a product. That is what is really at issue here. They took money twice for Northern Gun and hadn't even begun work on it. I think they were in the process of working on Lemuria when they took money. RRT is a whole nother can o worms.

[Jorel]

Just to expand on what I was talking about with Northern Gun Insiders, this is from the Northern Gun 2 announcement:

We expect this product to be released in September, 6-8 weeks after its crowdfunding ends, but there could be delays of an additional 1-3 months. We don’t expect that to be the case, but you never know.

-Chris

Do they ever expect there to be delays?

[bielmic]

So yeah, I don't blame Wayne or anyone at PB for cringing from social media. That's not an excuse - they need to communicate. I just can understand their reluctance.

The difference between your dad's story and Palladium's current situation is that most people (except for a few vocal critics on both sides) aren't twisting anything but rather are taking Palladium at their own word. Palladium says Dec, maybe October! then people expect Dec, maybe Oct. Fans and customers are not twisting it to August. Palladium says they're 98% done with the project and ready to manufacture within 45 days then people expect them to have 2% left and follow the time table.... not apparently the inverse. Hell, they barely got the pledge manager working within that time frame let alone making the actual products. The minis sculpts weren't done (let alone the sprues), the rules are still being tweaked, the layout is still being worked on, etc... 300 days later. They didn't stumb le out of the starting block but instead fell flat on their face after boldly declaring a resounding win during the countdown. Even if you twist their words into the most favorable possible light in that they were only referring to the core starter set in their infamous 98% proclamation, that still is blatantly untrue as they were still working on every facet of just that a few weeks ago. Follow that up with months of silence cumulatively punctuated largely only by optimistic platitudes last year, their only promo for the Kickstarter ending up a day late (technically 6 months) and a dollar short (only one "winner" instead of multiple), and now the marginalization of those who simply hold them to their own words that despite multiple retcons still don't seem to hold true.

If you go back to May's comments, you'll see that pretty much everything people feared would come true that can be confirmed has indeed come true. Bad communication? Check. Massive delays? Check. Disdain for dissenting opinions? Check. I'm only not including minis quality because we haven't seen the final versions of pretty much all but Zentraedi pods but the initial sprue layout was received quite negatively for the destroids and veritechs. All the stuff that defenders said wouldn't happen (despite the history of it on the RPG side) did and the blame ultimately goes to Palladium. I backed this project DESPITE palladium's involvement because I've been disappointed by them multiple times in the past and because they said they'd be hands off during the crowdfunding. Unfortunately, that story changed as soon as the checks were figuratively cashed and it became business as usual for Palladium.

Palladium is the name on the KS. Palladium is the company that cashed the money. Palladium is the company that vetted potential designers and decided on Ninja Division. Palladium has licensed games for 30 years and yet agreed to apparently crap terms (for the end consumer) regarding rules previews that also happen to match their own personal policy on PDF downloads of in print titles. Palladium is completely responsible for the management of this project and is ultimately to blame even if the direct cause of failure lays elsewhere. Ninja Division, just like Palladium, has screwed up their own pet crowdfunded projects and Harmony Gold has largely failed to capitalize on Robotech/Macross due to their own stubborness and greed for over 20 years... but Palladium is the key communicator here and ultimately the glue that binds them all together. Unfortunately, as evidenced by the NG crowdfunding, that glue is quite lacking in cohesiveness since they can't get their own affairs in order even when no one else is messing up.

People have suggested a very easy, honest, and open way of communicating the TRUE progress on Palladium projects but they've chosen to not use it. Instead of publishing a table of EVERYTHING and what status it is at that exact moment of the update (like the often linked PRODOS kickstarters do), they prefer vague platitudes, assurances, obfuscation, and silence. They don't want to deal with people looking at the table over 2-3 weeks and see that NOTHING was accomplished despite looming deadlines and would rather just keep that a "secret" (that most people already know or at least suspect) until the last second where they instead publish an apology along with an already unlikely revision of the end date that shows they didn't learn their lesson at all. Seriously... a table that includes every mini, every separate component (like dice, templates, rules), etc. would solve all of their lack of communication... but would expose their ignorance of project management and lack of experience/skill/willingness/whatever to bring the product to market in a timely fashion.

I hope that the above CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM will be seriously considered by the powers that be but I'm not holding my breath. This project so far has been a never ending string of disappointments unfortunately but it isn't too late to turn it around. Stop whatever it is that you're doing during those long days and spend some of those 7 day 80 hour work weeks in convincing Harmony Gold that rules previews = more money. If Palladium staff really are putting in that many hours and have almost nothing to show for it (see my thread on what they ACTUALLY accomplished this year), then take the advice of the armchair quarterbacks that despite have zero inside knowledge seem to be able to predict each and every misstep. Work smarter! Stop publishing pie in the sky assessments of your own skills and progress and instead SHOW the progress via a detailed table that shows every part of both waves.. don't just tell us things that anyone with common sense and a memory of the past 11 disappointing months can instantly refute.

Putting out ridiculously unrealistic press releases only creates MORE work and frustration for you when you have to retcon/apologize/actively silence fans. Put all the cards out on the table, take the initial heat, and then openly and truthfully update the project on a regular basis. A simple example would seemingly be the "miscommunication" about whether the valkyrie test sprues were shipped WEEKS ago. Seriously... when I order a $15 mini internationally from ebay or china I get tracking that works interantionally within two days. No one at palladium thought to ask for tracking info on the valkyrie package? How could they possibly not know for a full week or two that the package they were expect had never been sent? Do they only communicate with ND or ND with the factory once every few weeks? That is the type of "what the hell are you thinking?" project management that boggles my mind and I don't even work in the field. I devote more effort over the 15-30 minutes I spend organizing and following up on simple online gaming trades seemingly then Palladium does on their biggest project despite working insane hours for the full year.

Crowdfunding was supposed to turn things around for Palladium beyond just a quick infusion of cash. It's not too late to actually make real changes in how projects are currently being run and how they will be run in the future. Crowdfunding can work for Palladium but it won't benefit the company long term if they keep REPEATING the mistakes of the past and just take the money to continue business as usual.

[Scott Gibbons]

You have some good points. I too hope to see PBlearn and grow through this experience.

[Kryptt]

The other concern I have is when the next two eras will hit retail. I've seen some promised books, like the CE sourcebooks or MiF have taken years and in some cases a decade to come out. Considering how sc is the least popular of the series I don't see HG or PB rushing that line out anytime soon. So if PB goes in chronological order we may not see new gen till the next decade (and no I'm not joking). This may end up creating a third party market for bits if the game takes off. Although with the way the models have been designed it may end up becoming a nich game like the SG from GW. Meaning it might die a slow death. Unless most players won't bother covering up the seams it may be a while before we see 1000pt games. Just to build 300pts will be time consuming.

[Jorel]

If I do end up doing any of them, it will likely be to get a few to play with while I wait for the rest of my stuff to get done. I could see not caring about seams for those ones.

[bielmic]

The other concern I have is when the next two eras will hit retail. I've seen some promised books, like the CE sourcebooks or MiF have taken years and in some cases a decade to come out. Considering how sc is the least popular of the series I don't see HG or PB rushing that line out anytime soon. So if PB goes in chronological order we may not see new gen till the next decade (and no I'm not joking). This may end up creating a third party market for bits if the game takes off. Although with the way the models have been designed it may end up becoming a nich game like the SG from GW. Meaning it might die a slow death. Unless most players won't bother covering up the seams it may be a while before we see 1000pt games. Just to build 300pts will be time consuming.

Part of the problem is that Palladium seemingly loads up their paper plate waaaay too much at the gaming industry buffet and are shocked every trip back to the table when the plate bends and everything falls down leaving them to clean up their own mess. Including future projects into the day to day project management is good... to a point because too much means everything suffers. I don't want Palladium thinking AT ALL about any future eras when they haven't successfully published any part of the first era despite 6 months of delays and counting. Don't announce any future projects till the existing MASSIVELY delayed ones are fully completed. FOCUS on the ones you said would be done months ago, prioritizing the ones that you've already taken people's money for. If a project is no longer feasible, cancel it openly and officially instead of leaving people hanging for months to years (lol... the "year of PFRPG" just got a reprint of the existing book with a new cover... not impressed...). Don't hand out three dozen freelancer projects for the next year when you know YOU YOURSELF can only edit 4-6 feasibly.

The priorities at this point need to be getting NG2 out the door COMPLETELY (that means hardcovers, fancy versions, pdfs, phone calls, etc). There is no excuse for not managing to call insiders who spend hundreds of dollars on your RPG phone call pledge to have not been called over the intervening two years. You're simply avoiding them because you don't want to face the consequences and have even your biggest fans possibly tell you that the emperor has no clothes. After that, damage control for Robotech needs to be the order of the day for the next month or two. Get the rules out, get the project moving at a steady pace instead of fits and spurts punctuated by long periods of nothing. Have a checklist for each and every part of the Robotech project and follow up on anything that doesn't show progress within 48 hours. If you're supposed to have been sent a package, demand tracking within 2 days of the supposed shipment. If Ninja Division doesn't call you back, hold the next payment check till they do call and show that what was supposed to be done was done. Harmony gold wants to party like its 1999 and isn't being stubborn on an approval issue? Print out dozens of pages of negative comments and show them those people represent LOST money for them if they don't get on the ball soon.

Can palladium work on one or two other things in the meantime? Sure. Work on the next issue of rifter as it is mainly fan fiction anyways. Work on one or two books of your choice but don't bounce back and forth between dozen(s) with nothing to show for it for 2014 like in 2013. What the GAMA presentation indicates is that there seems to be a lack of focus at palladium in that they went to the industry's biggest business trade show and didn't even bother to set up their wares properly but instead chose mismatched bases. It's not a huge thing but it is indicative of the last minute all nighter term paper effort everything seems to be getting over the past decade that needs to be changed.

[bielmic]

If I do end up doing any of them, it will likely be to get a few to play with while I wait for the rest of my stuff to get done. I could see not caring about seams for those ones.

Are you guys still doing the unofficial open house? Any chance you can ask about definitive issues regarding delayed products on video and post it on youtube? I'm not talking about secret spy cam stuff before any overactive defenders pipe up but rather an open interview that asks the hard questions that need answers. I don't know how far you'll get as the last thing I read was that Kevin S won't even be there for most of the time but maybe you can get some answers from the minis expert at Palladium or their PR go to person for updates.

[Jorel]

The hardest part of that GAMA video to watch is how nervous Wayne is when the guy is handling the Spartan.

[Jorel]

If I do end up doing any of them, it will likely be to get a few to play with while I wait for the rest of my stuff to get done. I could see not caring about seams for those ones.

Are you guys still doing the unofficial open house? Any chance you can ask about definitive issues regarding delayed products on video and post it on youtube? I'm not talking about secret spy cam stuff before any overactive defenders pipe up but rather an open interview that asks the hard questions that need answers. I don't know how far you'll get as the last thing I read was that Kevin S won't even be there for most of the time but maybe you can get some answers from the minis expert at Palladium or their PR go to person for updates.

They canceled the tour about a month ago because of Penguicon, though I thought we had asked them about that weekend and they had approved. I'm not gonna make it as finances aren't panning out. I know there are others planning on getting together to game near there this week starting on Wed. Kinda bummed I can't make it even if the PB staff aren't gonna be available.

[bielmic]

The hardest part of that GAMA video to watch is how nervous Wayne is when the guy is handling the Spartan.

At this point, I'd consider it possible that along with not having anything remotely similar to base the minis on that palladium couldn't even be bothered to use proper CYA glue on the models. Maybe he is worried that they'll fall apart because he just used the elmer's that was handy or whatever glue was left over from the old RPG literal cut and paste layout days... dunno. With how badly everything has been handled from within 48 hours of KS completion, I just don't take anything for granted.

Just in case I ninja posted you, I asked about the open house above.

edit: you double super secret ninja'd me above!

[Jorel]

all good. I doubt they used elmers but it did make me chuckle.

[Kryptt]

Bielmic

Kevin still hasn't made those calls! Incredible. Couldn't he just use his cell phone while waiting to buy tick it's for the new cap'n America movie. Just out of curiosity are any of you who are expecting a phone call are u going to ask let him know that way more than 1% are unhappy and that it doesn't mean their haters, just tired of all the shenanigans. Including the ones here on the forums.

[Jorel]

Those folks are usually not the type to do that with one exception I know of. Then again since they wouldn't share that info if it happened on the PB end we'll never know unless someone else claims it.

[Jorel]

Did they ever put up the list of names on the FotM for Northern Gun 2? You know to make sure they spelled peoples names correctly or there weren't mistakes when it was put together? I don't recall seeing it and they just sent it to the printer.

[Giant2005]

Did they ever put up the list of names on the FotM for Northern Gun 2? You know to make sure they spelled peoples names correctly or there weren't mistakes when it was put together? I don't recall seeing it and they just sent it to the printer.

They didn't but the names were included in the preview - that is where I went to check before E-mailing them with my amendments.

[Jorel]

So...in other words they provided a list here for NG 1 but neglected to do a follow up and do a list for #2? I have to assume there were a lot of the same names, but I feel bad for any fresh names that didn't get the same treatment as the people that had their name listed on the forums to check for NG 1.

[ffranceschi]

So...in other words they provided a list here for NG 1 but neglected to do a follow up and do a list for #2? I have to assume there were a lot of the same names, but I feel bad for any fresh names that didn't get the same treatment as the people that had their name listed on the forums to check for NG 1.

+1

[Kryptt]

Someone posted this over on dakka.

http://countingdownto.com/countdown/pal ... down-clock

I've never seen this much scrutiny on a game company, even GW. Either way I know PB will fulfill their promise to the backers. Many think the quality isn't there but at least we'll get something. If zero was giving some small measure of truth. We should be grateful to get anything. I'm still hopeful PB makes good on their gencon suicide pact as it's being called around the net.

[Eclipse]

No offense to those who are worried about the money they invested in a kickstarter, but you should have been aware of Palladium's longstanding inability to hit a deadline. They've had that problem for well over a decade. You'll just have to be patient. The quality of miniatures issue brings to mind The Empire Strikes Back when Darth Vader said "I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further".

[Forar]

"Being late" and "needing possibly an extra year and a half on a 7 month project" are two entirely different things. ND doing a ton of the work was supposed to hearten us, and it did. HG being involved may complicate matters, but there were some hopes they might also crack the whip to keep things moving as well. Evidently neither came to pass. Saying "I told you so" to backers who were willing to contribute despite those misgivings, is rather uncouth.

And I disagree. If the miniatures fall short and PB tries to charge top tier prices for them (and at $6-12 per figure for MSRP, they are at a premium), they risk pricing gamers (and thus, themselves) right out of the market. If their business model requires they be sold at wholesale at a certain price to make a profit, and stores struggle to sell them even at a steep discount, the whole thing could become a cluster-shenanigans. Getting 1.4 mil or so in funding from the backers softens that blow considerably, but they clearly want (perhaps even need) this to be a successful source of cash flow.

Bluntly put, no, it's nothing like Vader's speech; they have a plenty vested interest in getting a greater return on their investment than just the initial startup funds. Doubly so in that this is their opportunity to help reintroduce themselves to markets that had long since passed on them. They really don't want or need for that name to be dragged through the mud, based on quality or price for what one gets. The delays and issues with communications are already doing plenty of damage.