Why are they so tough?

[Trooper Jim]

After reading some of the reviews and other posts, I don't think I will buy this game. I was really excited at first, but not so much now. I don't understand why the zombies are so damn tough individually. It has always been that the strength lies in numbers. Why does it take a natural 17 and almost 100 SDC to the head to kill a zed. How does that work, once you get turned does your skull mysteriously triple in thickness? Oh well sounds another example of power creep to me. I guess I will try to find a copy to thumb through, but with the zombies being so hard to kill, I doubt I could find anyone to play.

[sHaka]

Just buy the book and make them...less tough

[Nightbreed]

See i would have said that the mystical ritual made them so tough, but since the "official" version didn't include it.....

[dark brandon]

After reading some of the reviews and other posts, I don't think I will buy this game. I was really excited at first, but not so much now. I don't understand why the zombies are so damn tough individually. It has always been that the strength lies in numbers. Why does it take a natural 17 and almost 100 SDC to the head to kill a zed. How does that work, once you get turned does your skull mysteriously triple in thickness? Oh well sounds another example of power creep to me. I guess I will try to find a copy to thumb through, but with the zombies being so hard to kill, I doubt I could find anyone to play.

This has got me thinking why i probably wont' like the book.

Palladium is about a universal system. Why is it in this world, doing a head shot requires a roll of a natural 17 or higher and in other "universes" it's a 12+ bonuses? It should be the same rules across the board. A called shot should be a 12 on a strike roll with bonuses. If he keeps wanting to tout this megaversal system, he has got to keep the rules the same across the board.

In the words of one of my good friends: "Kevin has basically said that a 12 year old paraplegic child and a highly trained marine sniper have the EXACT same chance of hitting the head." We have concluded he did this for "balance" reasons. After all, why would anyone ever play a 12 year old paraplegic child when they could all play a marine snipers?

Or, maybe this is a megaversal rule change, now called shots...not only taking 2 actions also require a roll of a natural 17.

Sure, I could buy it and change it...but then it leaves me wondering...why didn't Kevin just leave the original manuscript in place and just tell everyone who may not like it "If you don't like it change it!"...with this attitude, he could get a lot more books published.

[sHaka]

Sure, I could buy it and change it...but then it leaves me wondering...why didn't Kevin just leave the original manuscript in place and just tell everyone who may not like it "If you don't like it change it!"

I thought that's what Kevin has always said

[Vidynn]

in my opinion, they should be hard to hit, but easier to kill...but that can be adjusted as the GM wishes anyway.

[DtMK]

in the Rifter #40 version, I'd chalk it up to the ritual and Unisane reanimating the dead flesh. But without it? Here's a thought. Living bone is sturdy, but isn't as hard as bleached bones per se. But perhaps a side-effect of the cause of the outbreak destroys ALL and ANY other bacteria, viruses and certain chemicals active in the body? This could have a limited fossilization effect on the bones, as well as turning the blood into the black, viscous fluid it is that reduces the effectiveness of certain attacks. At least that's how I'd try to rationalize it.

[Nightbreed]

in the Rifter #40 version, I'd chalk it up to the ritual and Unisane reanimating the dead flesh. But without it? Here's a thought. Living bone is sturdy, but isn't as hard as bleached bones per se. But perhaps a side-effect of the cause of the outbreak destroys ALL and ANY other bacteria, viruses and certain chemicals active in the body? This could have a limited fossilization effect on the bones, as well as turning the blood into the black, viscous fluid it is that reduces the effectiveness of certain attacks. At least that's how I'd try to rationalize it.

Interesting scientific PoV there DtMK.

[Shawn Merrow]

So far I plan to keep the H.P. at just one point as in the Rifter.

[DtMK]

Thanks Nightbreed. I'm pretty good at rationalizing. Adventure Comics and the silver age Flash got me interested in the science fiction behind science fact.

[Nightbreed]

Thanks Nightbreed. I'm pretty good at rationalizing. Adventure Comics and the silver age Flash got me interested in the science fiction behind science fact.

Cool, good to see a fellow comics person here!

[DtMK]

Already did, thanks! This is why I hope what I said makes some kind of sense.

[Brian Manning]

I think the fact that they're so tough will change the classic tactics for most zombie games. The head-shot stuff, while universally accepted as the one true method just doesn't work out well in this game, and I think a lot of victims added to the numbers by relying on what entertainment mediums have taught them about dispatching zombies. While I'm all for lowering the durability of the melon, or adding strike bonuses (and possibly lowering the required number to hit the head, but leaving the neck alone, since it's a harder target to hit), I don't think that ruins the game at all. It changes the tactics and requires a lot more teamwork, planning for when things go south, and a more escape-friendly mindset, rather than the tough Rambo approach of mowing down hordes single-handedly (like the literal mowing down in the Dead Rising game).

The main body is now the best bet, since it's a lower target number than the head, and you get to add your full strike bonuses...plus it only takes one action to target it (sure it's got more SDC, but chances are you're hitting more often). Plus it puts them down for a good long while so you can make good with your escape. If you need a called shot, your best option is now something that will pay dividends down the line, like taking out the leg, or arm to reduce it's mobility and combat efficiency (same target number as the main body, but the downside is taking an extra action for it), giving you more of an edge in later rounds (like the body shot in boxing...Money in the bank).

I'll most likely run a few games straight out of the book, and make changes if necessary, but for the most part I think this will shake my players up a bit when they need to change their ways, because they've all been playing too much All Flesh, or reading World War Z one too many times (one of my favorite books of all time, however). I don't know if anyone has played Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles (it's a fun little shooter for the Wii), but the zombies in there are much tougher than dead reign zombies. I'm talking full burst to the face tough. Sure you get the occasional critical shot kill when you target that small area on the head (but that's the same as rolling a natural 20, which would most likely one-shot kill a DR baddie with the right weapon as well).

The way I see it, things will change when players start to realize that it's just not the best value to take the head shots. They'll need to keep in mind that they're not out hunting zombies, they're trying to avoid them, and hopefully get what they need and get out. smaller encounters will require some teamwork, but here's what I'm figuring should factor in to the whole situation:

head shots: tough domes, requires a difficult roll with no bonuses and takes two actions

body shots: tougher than skulls (roughly twice as tough), but is easier to hit and you get twice as many shots (doesn't take two actions like a called shot does). Plus since it's not a called shot, burst fire is back on the menu baby!

limbs: money in the bank, but requires two actions to target. Just as easy to hit as the main body (with AR factored in), but has much lower SDC and does have a slight, but immediate payoff when successful.

zombies are slow: PCs have a lot more actions, and can take some time to communicate with each other during most encounters "Take that one with the missing nose...If we can drop him quickly we can make a break through that doorway he was coming out of." Teamwork (insert 80's montage about how awesome teamwork is).

[csbioborg]

what's the rationale behind a natural 17 it seems like that would defeat the point of having skills
in shooting and is highly unrealistic

[bar1scorpio]

It's to keep a party running, not fighting. And there are also a new series of point-blank rules for Zombie combat.

The real shame is some gamers get so damned entrenched into a certain style of playing, they don't recognize any other form of play.

A fun example I had with that though was with BTS 2.0, I GMed a one-nighter with a few Rifts regulars... it tickled me when the powergamer said "Okay, here's my stats and skills, but where's my guns?" When I replied, "You're a college student on a major campus, what guns?" The blood practically drained from his face when he realized he wouldn't be able to shoot his way out of this situation.

But the mentality set in. It's a horror game, not an action/military game. It can be tweaked to be... the Zombie stats listed are for when they start out. Zombies, as far as I read... don't heal. That's another important part of play. Run, and use attrition.

[Brian Manning]

what's the rationale behind a natural 17 it seems like that would defeat the point of having skills
in shooting and is highly unrealistic

I feel the same way, since you're going to fight how you train (I figure you would hear that since you're into jiu jitsu and MMA ), and when the going gets tough, you fall back on your instincts. So if you spend a ton of time throwing bullets down range, when your instincts kick in, you would fire your weapon how you were trained to do it. Although that for the most part means you would be aiming at center mass, I can't see why a trained shooter wouldn't be able to aim for the head if he's got a bit of breathing room.

That's an easy fix with a very simple house rule (I know, cop-out, but still). Just add the bonuses. However on a normal called shot, you don't get the bonus for an aimed shot anyway (which includes the sniper skill bonus), so it's all just WP strike bonuses (those aren't very high at level 1). It takes three actions for the aimed called shot. I still think the difficulty of using headshots (both SDC and strike roll required, even with bonuses added) you're better off putting three round bursts in the chest from your M-16. It's not your typical zombie game ("dinner call", PPE feeding, healing after an hour, tougher heads, going into stasis to wait for prey, etc...). This is Palladium's take on the genre and it still looks like it's going to be a blast to run.

[bar1scorpio]

Also mind you, that this "toughness" is the baseline. You don't have to "tweak" the baseline stat as a GM, just allow ones to "rot". The less they feed, the more they deteriorate. If a party fights them, and runs away, and the zombies don't feed on anything, they keep all that damage from the previous fight!

And.... let's add to this, the Palladium Zombies have a weakness that not many other game zombies have, they're afraid of Fire. Use that to your advantage when playing!

[dark brandon]

what's the rationale behind a natural 17 it seems like that would defeat the point of having skills
in shooting and is highly unrealistic

Because Kevin says it had to be hard to make people scared.

[ghost2020]

Seriously?

Please confirm that, and is it for each type or over all.

100 sdc to the head?
I'm thinking that maybe 15 sdc would be fine.

It's the hitting them that should be hard, but once hit, shouldn't be too tough to kill them, otherwise, it's too difficult to play and frustrating.

Plus a called shot is hard enough, without tagging some ridiculous negatives on it for the sake of 'genre'.
If being run right, then there's enough negatives anyway (running, aiming, hordes of zombies, pressure, etc.).

I just bought the book and haven't had a chance to really dig into it.

[Brian Manning]

It's about 20 - 25 SDC for the head, plus you have to get through their HP as well. It's not 100 SDC.

If you inflict triple the SDC of the head in one shot, it's an automatic kill, though. So you're looking at ~75 or 76 SDC against the toughest zombies (maximum roll to determine the SDC of their head, which isn't too common).

[The Galactus Kid]

what's the rationale behind a natural 17 it seems like that would defeat the point of having skills
in shooting and is highly unrealistic

Because Kevin says it had to be hard to make people scared.

Seriously?

Please confirm that, and is it for each type or over all.

It was speculation.

[ghost2020]

Aaaahhh ok.

I guess just getting around to reading the darned book will solve a lot of this.

[dark brandon]

what's the rationale behind a natural 17 it seems like that would defeat the point of having skills
in shooting and is highly unrealistic

Because Kevin says it had to be hard to make people scared.

Seriously?

Please confirm that, and is it for each type or over all.

It was speculation.

Actually, it was in one of this murmurs

Likewise, one of my pals immediately said (without having played it, only read the book), "Oh, I think it is too hard to hit the head and neck, so I'm going to let players include their strike bonuses."

I implored him not to do so and I tell any of you thinking of doing likewise, don't. The difficulty to strike these two critical areas added to the excitement, intensity and suspense of the game. In playtests, characters are shouting and blasting or shooting away and half the attacks are just shrugged off by the zombie (or miss) and the monster keeps on coming (or holding onto a teammate, etc.). A third of the attacks hit the zombie but do damage to the main body, and 20% strike the head or neck but don't do enough damage to stop it. Man, oh man, this all added to the sense of urgency, panic, horror and fun. "Shoot again, shoot again!" "Hurry, more are coming." "Good God, what does it take to put this thing down?" "Great shot! It's down. Now run!!!"

In fact, when I pointedly asked playtesters if I should make it easier to a) hit the head and neck, or b) make the zombies easier to kill, they practically SCREAMED no! Try it, I think you'll like it.

[Sir Neil]

I guess just getting around to reading the darned book will solve a lot of this.

I found that not getting the darned book also solves a lot of this. YMMV.

[The Galactus Kid]

what's the rationale behind a natural 17 it seems like that would defeat the point of having skills
in shooting and is highly unrealistic

Because Kevin says it had to be hard to make people scared.

Seriously?

Please confirm that, and is it for each type or over all.

It was speculation.

Actually, it was in one of this murmurs

Likewise, one of my pals immediately said (without having played it, only read the book), "Oh, I think it is too hard to hit the head and neck, so I'm going to let players include their strike bonuses."

I implored him not to do so and I tell any of you thinking of doing likewise, don't. The difficulty to strike these two critical areas added to the excitement, intensity and suspense of the game. In playtests, characters are shouting and blasting or shooting away and half the attacks are just shrugged off by the zombie (or miss) and the monster keeps on coming (or holding onto a teammate, etc.). A third of the attacks hit the zombie but do damage to the main body, and 20% strike the head or neck but don't do enough damage to stop it. Man, oh man, this all added to the sense of urgency, panic, horror and fun. "Shoot again, shoot again!" "Hurry, more are coming." "Good God, what does it take to put this thing down?" "Great shot! It's down. Now run!!!"

In fact, when I pointedly asked playtesters if I should make it easier to a) hit the head and neck, or b) make the zombies easier to kill, they practically SCREAMED no! Try it, I think you'll like it.

I stand corrected. I didn't recall that murmur.

[Spinachcat]

I never take away a PC's bonus to anything. Let'em roll.

Nothing collapses player fun quicker than taking actions that have no effect. Missing is no fun. Heck, that's why 4e D&D increase to-hit chances and increased HP. The "whiff" factor is a major issue in why people dislike many games. PB's system for ablative armor and SDC / HP gives a strong buffer for attrition so adding lots of misses on top of that only drains from the fun.

[ghost2020]

AMEN!

[Greyaxe]

I will allow a bonus to strike under the right circumstances.
While sniping from a distance yes. From 10 feet way us the point t blank rules. Otherwise you need a 17 plus to hit naturally

[Steeler49er]

Check out a book called "The Physics of Superheroes" by Prof James Kakalios from the University of Minnesota. All the science and super science you handle.

Aww Professor Kakalios... The man that gave us the definiative maximum "Speed needed to run across water" physics.

I'd haveta agree that 17to hit is too dang high (I just liked the old +3 Diff modifier of old), and that is WAY-HA-HAY tooo freaking much SDC on the head, just to kill one. Sure they SHOULD be harder to KaK than a human, just because they, in fact, are Not! They are undead Zombies and should be able to take allota hits before falling... But 100 this is just redic-ulos.
25 sounds Just right to me.

[dark brandon]

In all honesty, and I will probably get alot of negative response to this, The complaints about tough zombies and the head shots, really boils down to power gamers who played all flesh and dont want to lose the ability to mow down hoards of zombies per melee round.
Seriously, these are called Role Playing Games, not kill everything in sight and screw over the rest of the party games.
I have seen to many games end because of one or two people that ruin it for everyone else.

As someone stated, it's suppost to be "universal" rules. The old way of hitting a head was requireing a 12 to hit, and you were penalized -3 because it was a difficult target. This made it difficult because without skill, you needed a 15 or higher to hit.

[The Beast]

So play it like this:

Use the new called shot/aimed shot rules from RUE.
Those with training need the old number, those without training need the higher number.

This way some players (depending on how you set up the game) won't stay to fight too long, and the zombies can still move in on those who do. Seems to resemble most zombie movies I've seen anyway.

[Lenwen]

I've always ruled that Called shots = 2 attacks and need a nat 18 .. to hit it . then add in any possible bonases with nuthing over a +4 for the bonas .

I dont want to just give my PC's that sorta power with out having a draw back its a well balanced machine ... if you ask me ... to give a little you have to be willing to sacrafice a little..


Zombies in my opinion .. based on my fav Zombie lore is flat out EASY to hit .... HARD to kill ..

there is no such thing as walking around with just a baseball bat and whompin them in the head for a kill .. alla some movies ... thier friggen undead an feel nuthing .. Hello .. they should be easy to hit and hard to kill ..

I mean honestly .. what other powers do they get ? haha

[sHaka]

I agree when it comes to the disregarding of the established rules on head shots. Does seem screwy and counter-intuitive. I'll reserve judgement until I've run a game. If it turns out to be a fun, I'll keep it.

I disagree with the comments on the zombie toughness though, I'm glad Palladium's zombies are different. Can't wait to see a player's face go from grin to grim once a sloucher shrugs off a round to the forehead (or watch a group decide what to do with a bitten comrade for that matter) - thinking on the fly in the face of certain doom, that's survival horror.

[sHaka]

The die rolling was pretty simple. if we got 14 or higher we hit the body. That was with Bonuses. The head shots we had to get a 17 or higher with out bonuses.
There were 8 of us playing in that demo. only one player was not fighting as he was protecting some dog he found lol.
So in a fight against I think it was 50 Zombies while we were trying to reach a church with more on the way 7 of us managed 5 head shots each without bonuses.

This answers some of my question.
So anytime you rolled a 17 or higher without bonuses, it hit the head? Is that what you're saying? You still hit the rest of the body if you missed the head?

If so, that does change my thinking on how tough zombies are. Either that or KS was using some alternate rules to speed the game along. It would mean, among other things that 1 in every 5 attacks would hit the head, and the number of attacks that hit normally would see an increase as you could still add in all of your bonuses to just be able to hit the head.

Am I on tract here? Or am I still missing something?

Yes, I suppose that would make sense. Palladium rules say that missing your called shot, but still rolling high enough to hit the Main body, still hits the main body. So perhaps that's it.

[Spinachcat]

Palladium rules say that missing your called shot, but still rolling high enough to hit the Main body, still hits the main body. So perhaps that's it.

I have always liked that rule. Also, sounds like I will judge it this way:

Basic Attack
modified 14 = body hit
natural 17 = head hit...even without called shot (bullet's gotta go somewhere!)

Called Shot
modified 14-16 = body hit
modified 17 = head hit

[Spinachcat]

Dead reign makes other zombie rpg's, like All Flesh Must Be Eaten, Look like small children playing at being grown ups.

Amost every RPG I have played has always had you roll a natural 20 with no bonuses added to hit vital spots.

The complaints about tough zombies and the head shots, really boils down to power gamers who played all flesh and dont want to lose the ability to mow down hoards of zombies per melee round.

See kids, it's quotes like these that make Palladium fans unwelcome on so many online forums.

There is no reason to insult the fans of AFMBE to promote Dead Reign.

[sHaka]

Yes, I suppose that would make sense. Palladium rules say that missing your called shot, but still rolling high enough to hit the Main body, still hits the main body. So perhaps that's it.

WOW!!!!!
All this time I've been playing that if you make an attempt at a called shot, and miss the targeted area, you just flat out miss the target as a whole.
My bad.

"The Megaversal System, where day 1 stuff gets learnt on day 2376"

hmm then again, maybe it isn't that simple. I notice in RUE, HU2 and RT:SC those called shot rules are under "Vehicle Combat", there's no mention of it with the other ranged combat rules. Is that intentional I wonder

I've always played it this way personally for all combat.

[The Beast]

Yes, I suppose that would make sense. Palladium rules say that missing your called shot, but still rolling high enough to hit the Main body, still hits the main body. So perhaps that's it.

WOW!!!!!
All this time I've been playing that if you make an attempt at a called shot, and miss the targeted area, you just flat out miss the target as a whole.
My bad.

Sometimes my group plays like this, depending on the situation.

And maybe in this game, use the rule the other person said a few posts ago. Miss by alittle bit, you still hit the target, miss by too much and you don't hit at all.

[Brian Manning]

...hmm then again, maybe it isn't that simple. I notice in RUE, HU2 and RT:SC those called shot rules are under "Vehicle Combat", there's no mention of it with the other ranged combat rules. Is that intentional I wonder ...

I'm thinking it makes some sense because those are the areas where your target actually has separate SDC/MDC values for different parts of the same target (turret, wheels, wings, sensors, etc).

[Nightbreed]

Yes, I suppose that would make sense. Palladium rules say that missing your called shot, but still rolling high enough to hit the Main body, still hits the main body. So perhaps that's it.

WOW!!!!!
All this time I've been playing that if you make an attempt at a called shot, and miss the targeted area, you just flat out miss the target as a whole.
My bad.

Sometimes my group plays like this, depending on the situation.

And maybe in this game, use the rule the other person said a few posts ago. Miss by alittle bit, you still hit the target, miss by too much and you don't hit at all.

This is how my group plays no matter who GMs. Called shot to a specific body part: natural 12 otherwise it hits main body. Only time you totally miss is the usual 1-4.

[dark brandon]

Yes, I suppose that would make sense. Palladium rules say that missing your called shot, but still rolling high enough to hit the Main body, still hits the main body. So perhaps that's it.

WOW!!!!!
All this time I've been playing that if you make an attempt at a called shot, and miss the targeted area, you just flat out miss the target as a whole.
My bad.

Sometimes my group plays like this, depending on the situation.

And maybe in this game, use the rule the other person said a few posts ago. Miss by alittle bit, you still hit the target, miss by too much and you don't hit at all.

This is how my group plays no matter who GMs. Called shot to a specific body part: natural 12 otherwise it hits main body. Only time you totally miss is the usual 1-4.

That's what we do. We wanted to make it so that if you missed a called shot there would be a % chance you'd hit the main body. We decided it complicated and slowed the game down too much to do something like this though.

[Nightbreed]

Only way i can see the called shot 17 thing is if you're aiming for something really small, like the center of an eye.

[Tricky]

I was looking over the Reaper's combat abilities: considering the way the zombies are 'built', as far as i can see, I don't know how guys on choppers have any chance of dispatching more than a small number of zombies. They ride through an area, using one handed weapons with no penalty. That's good. But, since they get no bonuses to hit the head anyway, it seems a moot point.
And you know they are aiming for the head, since the goal, according to the book is to destroy zombies. So, each zombie is going to take numerous passes, each needing a natural 17 to hit the head, untill that big zombie cranium pops open revealing the brain (aka hit points), then a couple more hits to drop it.

Doesn't sound like the quick run though as it's described in the book, does it? Maybe I got it wrong, but that's how it looks to me.

From what I've seen on the boards, a better use of ones time it to use ALL of your attack bonuses and aim for the body, depleat the SDC and HP, and then take your time destroying the brain or burning them away.

[Vrykolas2k]

I have to disagree with the rules, as I often do, when it comes to shooting.
People learned to use fire-arms, in spite of the high mortality rates for the shooters in the beginning, because they're easier to use than other weapons, which require far more skill, training, and practice. I speak from personal experience; I shoot my bow every week to keep in practice, and practice with my swords daily. I rarely go shooting with my pistols or rifles, but when I do, I'm just as good as I was the last time I went.
Add to that any kind of real training, such as the Sniper skill, and the whole "you need a called shot with no bonuses" bit is just too far-fetched to be plausible, which makes it hard for some people to suspend disbelief enough to really enjoy the game.
Hell, what do you think they taught us in sniper school? How to crochet? That's about what some of the PB rules make it look like. A trained sniper is in the same boat as some kid who's been shooting a BB gun... it just doesn't make sense.
I don't have a real problem needing a 17+ to hit the head, just as long as you get your bonuses... and the bonuses are logical. In most PB games, they really aren't.
As for the toughness of zomies, I don't see why the head gets a seperate die-roll... in most PB games, unless you're a cyborg, you get your total SDC/HP/MDC and the head, arms and legs take percentages off of that, yes?

[kaid]

One thing I noticed is that it seemed like the neck was a weaker target than the head. Sever the neck and the zombie is down for the count unless something reattatches the head later which I think would be pretty rare unless you see cultists around.

And if you can pop their heads off fast I would have to say as a GM if the now motionless head is on the ground and if there are no critters around it should be a no brainer to squash it.

Seemed like it may be a good way to stop the moan fast and then they could be ignored or cleaned up later as needed. At very least that zombie is not getting back into the fight any time soon. Although if cultists are around make sure to cap them first.

[ghost2020]

I've started up this thread regarding PP bonuses and ranged attacks.

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=98462&p=1901983#p1901983

[kaid]

I was reading through more of the combat section last night and there are rules for up close short range fights where you pretty much cannot miss or at near range where you get pluses to hit even the head. Given that a lot of the combats vs zombies are probably going to be at very very up close ranges head hits or neck hits at those ranges with things like sawed off shotguns would not be that rare.

Still reading through all the combat rules but most are just mentioning the normal range aimed shot chances but it looks like there is more there than just that.

[ronekiln]

A buddy of mine went through the FBI handgun course years ago. He told me every time they went to the range they first ran a mile, immediately did 50 push ups, then picked up the handgun and started shooting without taking a moment to breath. This was the closest aproximation they had found to replicating the jittery stress reaction people have to violent combat. Now a person well trained and inured to the concept of killing zombies calmly looking through a scope from a safe roof top may not have to deal with this. Someone literally shoving a gun barrel against a forehead and pulling the trigger may not have such difficulties either. So let's add credit for common sense. I remember an awesome article about using common sense to modify games rules being in one of the Palladium books. I think for the most part these rules are meant to be generalizations applied to most characters in most game situations. I don't think a marine sniper is meant to be the standard character here. Normal people suddenly thrust into very abnormal situations are the standard character. I know a lot of people that are incredibly skilled at the rifle range would be near useless in a zombie invasion cause they'd be freaking out too bad to carefully take aim. Take a few weeks of sleep deprivation, mind numbing horror, destruction of most if not all you hold dear, and terror of being eaten alive, and a handicapped 12 year old in a wheel chair may be just as good with that rifle as the skilled competition target shooter. Find a safe place to sleep a few days and have a possible mission presented that gives renewed meaning to life and suddenly the competition shooter may once again far exceed the kid in a wheel chair. Good luck coming up with a clear effective rule set to accomodate that. You're going to have to wing a lot of that no matter what rule set you use.

[csbioborg]

A buddy of mine went through the FBI handgun course years ago. He told me every time they went to the range they first ran a mile, immediately did 50 push ups, then picked up the handgun and started shooting without taking a moment to breath. This was the closest aproximation they had found to replicating the jittery stress reaction people have to violent combat. Now a person well trained and inured to the concept of killing zombies calmly looking through a scope from a safe roof top may not have to deal with this. Someone literally shoving a gun barrel against a forehead and pulling the trigger may not have such difficulties either. So let's add credit for common sense. I remember an awesome article about using common sense to modify games rules being in one of the Palladium books. I think for the most part these rules are meant to be generalizations applied to most characters in most game situations. I don't think a marine sniper is meant to be the standard character here. Normal people suddenly thrust into very abnormal situations are the standard character. I know a lot of people that are incredibly skilled at the rifle range would be near useless in a zombie invasion cause they'd be freaking out too bad to carefully take aim. Take a few weeks of sleep deprivation, mind numbing horror, destruction of most if not all you hold dear, and terror of being eaten alive, and a handicapped 12 year old in a wheel chair may be just as good with that rifle as the skilled competition target shooter. Find a safe place to sleep a few days and have a possible mission presented that gives renewed meaning to life and suddenly the competition shooter may once again far exceed the kid in a wheel chair. Good luck coming up with a clear effective rule set to accomodate that. You're going to have to wing a lot of that no matter what rule set you use.

what about the guy that's been to the FBI's course or similar ones. The point is you could be that Marine sniper. I know a lot more of them than I do kids in wheel chairs. Penalites for soiutaions can be aplied but bonues should be added for experience it only makes sense.