~ WHY do you guys like playing CYBER KNIGHTS ?!?! ~

[TechnoGothic]

WHY do you guys like playing CYBER KNIGHTS ?!?!

For myself (since i cannot speak for you guys)
I like because they seem the most Heroic of the OCCs in many ways.
Of course the aren't though. Just like how many old time Knight were prickks and downright "evil", so can the Cyber-Knight be that way.

I play up the "KNIGHT of the OLD CODE" aspect. I use Dragonheart's Knight Code more often for my characters though.
No one is above the code...Not even the Kind, especially the King

A knight is sworn to valor
His heart knows only virtue
His blade defends the helpless
His might upholds the weak
His word speaks only truth
His wrath undoes the wicked

[Mech-Viper Prime]

i dont like playing them , but i do enjoy beating them up alot

[Shadyslug]

Never played one...though I have seen several played...

[sennin]

I rarely play them, as I prefer to play either the sneaky, crafty character or a mage of some sort. Every once in a while I will get an urge to play a "Boy Scout". When that happens, I pick a Cyber Knight, mainly because I like the concept of the OCC.

[Marrowlight]

The element of surprise. No one ever expects me to play something principled in alignment.

[LostOne]

I've played both a good (to a fault) and evil CK in games. The good one was very stick-up-his-butt-force-his-morals-on-everyone type personality. I think his race is called the D'Norr Devilman. He bossed the group around a lot, taking control because he knew they would make choices he didn't agree with otherwise, and spent a lot of time convincing people that even though he looked like the devil he was actually good (his race wasn't well known in the region the game took place in). He eventually died from what our group calls LSS (lawful stupid syndrome) like many paladins in our D&D games. Basically he ran into a moral conundrum that caused him to hesitate when he should have been reacting and there was no right choice, it was picking a lesser of two evils. He didn't react quickly enough and died in a very big explosion.

The evil one was more fun. He was a mercenary/assassin in a world where the cyberknights had been destroyed from within by corruption and deceit. He acted the perfect cyberknight hero as a cover, met with clients in disguise (masked and hooded) and earned top dollar for his unique and efficient methods of getting the job done. He was also master psychic.

[Killer Cyborg]

WHY do you guys like playing CYBER KNIGHTS ?!?!

After the SoT and RUE revisions, I no longer do.

I used to enjoy the fact that they represented what an ordinary human with determination, discipline and honor could achieve. I liked that they were the baddest un-augmented humans around, but now they're too munchy for me to count them as unaugmented.

[Mack]

WHY do you guys like playing CYBER KNIGHTS ?!?!

After the SoT and RUE revisions, I no longer do.

I used to enjoy the fact that they represented what an ordinary human with determination, discipline and honor could achieve. I liked that they were the baddest un-augmented humans around, but now they're too munchy for me to count them as unaugmented.

So why not play the RMB version?

[DocS]

I played Cyber-knights for years, I called it 'cyberknitis', where you read the cyberknight, think it's cool, then spend the next two years of your gaming career trying desperately to come to terms with them....

The prime symptom of cyberknitis-you spend all your time thinking of uses for a psi sword that only does 1d6 MD

'Maybe we'll get attacked by vampires when no one has a wooden stick!'
'Maybe we'll get captured and chained up by someone who doesn't know I'm a cyberknight'
'Maybe we'll get attacked by a creature that only takes psi-sword damage... but doesn't have much MDC'
"Maybe we'll get attacked by pigeons, and I can use my Pretzles as a distraction" (ok, the last one isn't true)

Another symptom.... the attempt to think of good reasons for cyber-armor

"I have 50 MDC! Just as long as I'm fighting bad guys who are incapable of rolling over a 16 on a d20"

I'm afraid my biggest breakthrough was in playing a cyberknight who acted like a City Rat (they could take streetwise skills with a bonus if I remember). He simply never used the psi-sword, and, voila, I had a reasonably effective character. Not totally amazing, but he had an extra attack, he was good with weapons, and had a few (but not many) psionic abilities. He had a climb cord too, and you know, the cord was more useful than the sword.

The old cyberknight was written up as if he was enhanced (he had cyber armor.... which *seemed* cool, that is until you depended on it... he had MD weapons which *seemed* cool, that is until you used it and found yourself either in situations where you were outdone by a vibro-blade or where you were outdone by a wooden stick. When my most useful cyberknight was the one who never used a psi sword and spent all of his time making sure he never needed the cyber armor... I became a little jaded on the poor fellows. I love the concept, but they needed more... oomph.

I would have been happy with a simple tripling of the psi-sword damage.

And maybe lesson the cyber armor to 20 MDC, but remove its armor rating.

[DocS]

I liked that they were the baddest un-augmented humans around.

No, they were augmented. Megadamage weapons, megadamage armor, psionic powers (at least in 85% of them)....

It's just that they were augmented so amazingly *badly*, which is why folks talked about them being 'un-augmented'.

[Killer Cyborg]

I liked that they were the baddest un-augmented humans around.

No, they were augmented. Megadamage weapons, megadamage armor, psionic powers (at least in 85% of them)....

You obviously have a different definition of "augmented" than I do.
Weapons and armor aren't augmentations.
Psionics aren't really augmentations either; they're natural abilities enhanced through training.

Juicers, Borgs, Crazies; those guys are augmented.
Cyberknights? No.

Only thing that might count would be the Cyber-Armor, but anybody can get that, if they have the right money, and it usually didn't make a big difference.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm afraid my biggest breakthrough was in playing a cyberknight who acted like a City Rat (they could take streetwise skills with a bonus if I remember). He simply never used the psi-sword, and, voila, I had a reasonably effective character. Not totally amazing, but he had an extra attack, he was good with weapons, and had a few (but not many) psionic abilities. He had a climb cord too, and you know, the cord was more useful than the sword.

The old cyberknight was written up as if he was enhanced (he had cyber armor.... which *seemed* cool, that is until you depended on it... he had MD weapons which *seemed* cool, that is until you used it and found yourself either in situations where you were outdone by a vibro-blade or where you were outdone by a wooden stick. When my most useful cyberknight was the one who never used a psi sword and spent all of his time making sure he never needed the cyber armor... I became a little jaded on the poor fellows. I love the concept, but they needed more... oomph.

I would have been happy with a simple tripling of the psi-sword damage.

And maybe lesson the cyber armor to 20 MDC, but remove its armor rating.

This is one of those places where you and I have completely different views.
You read about the Cyberknights and apparently pictured them using their Psi-Sword for everything, and relying on their Cyber-Armor to protect them.
I read about the Cyberknights, and saw a class of warriors who used whatever weapons worked best, usually energy rifles and such, the same stuff any non-power-armored warrior in Rifts used, and that counts on their Cyber-Armor only as an emergency back-up, something that gives them a chance of surviving something that might otherwise kill them.
I saw the Psi-Sword as a nice back-up weapon if things went horribly wrong, and you had to resort to melee combat, not as their primary weapon.

It's nice to know that you eventually figured out, to an extent, how to play them, although it's a shame that you're still unhappy about it and think that they needed change.

[Marrowlight]

It's nice to know that you eventually figured out, to an extent, how to play them,

Zing?

[DocS]

I read about the Cyberknights, and saw a class of warriors who used whatever weapons worked best, usually energy rifles and such, the same stuff any non-power-armored warrior in Rifts used, and that counts on their Cyber-Armor only as an emergency back-up, something that gives them a chance of surviving something that might otherwise kill them.
I saw the Psi-Sword as a nice back-up weapon if things went horribly wrong, and you had to resort to melee combat, not as their primary weapon.

Ok, that describes the only way to play a cyberknight effectively, does it jive with the class description?

Phenomenal combat skills
a weapon to be feared
living legends
rarely travel in groups larger than a pair
judge jury and executioner
(all bolded text is direct quote from the description)
Yep, all you saw was the stats, the rest of us read the description. The stats and the description just plain don't match.

Funny you mention Juicers and Crazies. A rough measure of how powerful the writers considered a class was, is the experience chart. Powerful classes (Like Dragons) have very very tough experience tables. Weaker classes (Vagabonds) require relatively little experience to advance. Juicers and Crazies, however, are on the identicle exp table to cyberknights. At least by that measure, the writers intended them to be of roughly equal power level.

Exactly where are those Phenomenal combat skills in the class stats again? To be honest, when I see a class described that way, I think the stats should bear that out!

[DocS]

I read about the Cyberknights, and saw a class of warriors who used whatever weapons worked best, usually energy rifles and such, the same stuff any non-power-armored warrior in Rifts used, and that counts on their Cyber-Armor only as an emergency back-up, something that gives them a chance of surviving something that might otherwise kill them.
I saw the Psi-Sword as a nice back-up weapon if things went horribly wrong, and you had to resort to melee combat, not as their primary weapon.

The Last Crusaders, Shane Lacy Hensley, post apocalyptic knights that fit that description..... but not Rifts. Sorry, still working on the Phenomenal Combat skills

[Killer Cyborg]

I read about the Cyberknights, and saw a class of warriors who used whatever weapons worked best, usually energy rifles and such, the same stuff any non-power-armored warrior in Rifts used, and that counts on their Cyber-Armor only as an emergency back-up, something that gives them a chance of surviving something that might otherwise kill them.
I saw the Psi-Sword as a nice back-up weapon if things went horribly wrong, and you had to resort to melee combat, not as their primary weapon.

Ok, that describes the only way to play a cyberknight effectively, does it jive with the class description?

Phenomenal combat skills

Compared to a CS Grunt or Headhunter?
Yeah.

a weapon to be feared

Yup.
Of course, that's pretty much every class in the main book except the Vagabond.

living legends

You don't have to be badass to be a legend.

rarely travel in groups larger than a pair

Yup.
Don't forget, "A troop of five or more can only mean that some horrible danger is near".
Meaning that they're not expected to take on a dragon single-handed; they band together when they need to.

Also, don't overlook the "They don't go looking for trouble..." clause.

judge jury and executioner

Sure, why not?

Funny you mention Juicers and Crazies. A rough measure of how powerful the writers considered a class was, is the experience chart. Powerful classes (Like Dragons) have very very tough experience tables. Weaker classes (Vagabonds) require relatively little experience to advance. Juicers and Crazies, however, are on the identicle exp table to cyberknights. At least by that measure, the writers intended them to be of roughly equal power level.

Yup.
Juicers are better at combat.
CKs are have more skills and are better at being alive in 6 years.

Exactly where are those Phenomenal combat skills in the class stats again? To be honest, when I see a class described that way, I think the stats should bear that out!

+1d4x10 SDC
+1 to init.
+1 attack (which, you should remember, meant 50% more attacks than an average first level character)
Gymnastics
4 WPs to start
HTH: Martial Arts

Does that impress you?
No?

Yeah, I figured.
THIS is what I talk about when I complain that people have a skewed view of Rifts Earth, that people hold adventuring classes up as the standard, and they're simply NOT.
Pit an average main book CK against an average main book Vagabond, and see who wins.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I played Cyber-knights for years, I called it 'cyberknitis', where you read the cyberknight, think it's cool, then spend the next two years of your gaming career trying desperately to come to terms with them....

The prime symptom of cyberknitis-you spend all your time thinking of uses for a psi sword that only does 1d6 MD

'Maybe we'll get attacked by vampires when no one has a wooden stick!'
'Maybe we'll get captured and chained up by someone who doesn't know I'm a cyberknight'
'Maybe we'll get attacked by a creature that only takes psi-sword damage... but doesn't have much MDC'
"Maybe we'll get attacked by pigeons, and I can use my Pretzles as a distraction" (ok, the last one isn't true)

Another symptom.... the attempt to think of good reasons for cyber-armor

"I have 50 MDC! Just as long as I'm fighting bad guys who are incapable of rolling over a 16 on a d20"

I'm afraid my biggest breakthrough was in playing a cyberknight who acted like a City Rat (they could take streetwise skills with a bonus if I remember). He simply never used the psi-sword, and, voila, I had a reasonably effective character. Not totally amazing, but he had an extra attack, he was good with weapons, and had a few (but not many) psionic abilities. He had a climb cord too, and you know, the cord was more useful than the sword.

The old cyberknight was written up as if he was enhanced (he had cyber armor.... which *seemed* cool, that is until you depended on it... he had MD weapons which *seemed* cool, that is until you used it and found yourself either in situations where you were outdone by a vibro-blade or where you were outdone by a wooden stick. When my most useful cyberknight was the one who never used a psi sword and spent all of his time making sure he never needed the cyber armor... I became a little jaded on the poor fellows. I love the concept, but they needed more... oomph.

I would have been happy with a simple tripling of the psi-sword damage.

And maybe lesson the cyber armor to 20 MDC, but remove its armor rating.

I think the main difference KC and I have from most people is we NEVER saw them as relying on, or even using often, their psi-sword and cyber armor as their primary weapons and armor. They were always secondary at best, teritary or furhter in most cases. They're there so they CAN keep on fighting, not that they use them excusivly.

[TechnoGothic]

I read about the Cyberknights, and saw a class of warriors who used whatever weapons worked best, usually energy rifles and such, the same stuff any non-power-armored warrior in Rifts used, and that counts on their Cyber-Armor only as an emergency back-up, something that gives them a chance of surviving something that might otherwise kill them.
I saw the Psi-Sword as a nice back-up weapon if things went horribly wrong, and you had to resort to melee combat, not as their primary weapon.

Ok, that describes the only way to play a cyberknight effectively, does it jive with the class description?

Phenomenal combat skills
a weapon to be feared
living legends
rarely travel in groups larger than a pair
judge jury and executioner

(all bolded text is direct quote from the description)
Yep, all you saw was the stats, the rest of us read the description. The stats and the description just plain don't match.

Funny you mention Juicers and Crazies. A rough measure of how powerful the writers considered a class was, is the experience chart. Powerful classes (Like Dragons) have very very tough experience tables. Weaker classes (Vagabonds) require relatively little experience to advance. Juicers and Crazies, however, are on the identicle exp table to cyberknights. At least by that measure, the writers intended them to be of roughly equal power level.

Exactly where are those Phenomenal combat skills in the class stats again? To be honest, when I see a class described that way, I think the stats should bear that out!

Rarely find more than a pair...
Master and Apprientace.
Always two.

Ok Sith flashback...
next.

[Defender_X]

I started to lean toward playing CKs after a guy I played with gave me a real strong empathic NO before I even decieded on a character about CKs. Never understood why though. So I started to look at the class and started liking what I saw. And a Kirin CK with a 24+ PB? Wow, I think her group has just found their spokesperson.

[Talavar]

Cyber-armour was never intended as the main armour of the knights, but as a last resort. I've never understood how people don't get that.

And while their psi-sword sucks at first level as anything more than a backup, it's not so bad once you gain a few levels.

I'm not super-fond of some of the Sot/RUE changes, but I do like the paired psi-swords and the possibility of increased psionics - which give a rather significant boost to psi-sword damage.

[mobuttu]

I'm playing a CK nowadays. I like both role/roll-playing aspects of the character: He is damn good HtH combatant (7 attacks/round), huge attacks/parry bonuses, 3d6x2 MDC (w/ paired weapons), and good agains technology related foes (wich in our game are the most). He strick moral code allows me to define his behavior very straightfoward which sometimes brings us to very good role-playing scenes (sometimes too hot, my fault ).

PS. Luckily for me it hasn't used it's cyber-armor, yet (which, as somebody stated before, it's pretty lame due to the AC).

[dragon_blaze_99]

Because the look good in Black, fool

[Marrowlight]

Because the look good in Black, fool

Amish Knights?



That does conjure up all kinds of creepy images.

[dragon_blaze_99]

Because the look good in Black, fool

Amish Knights?



That does conjure up all kinds of creepy images.

how did i know you would get that joke

[Marrowlight]

Because the look good in Black, fool

Amish Knights?



That does conjure up all kinds of creepy images.

how did i know you would get that joke

[DhAkael]

One problem.
I LOVE the Cyber-keniggit (TRUE rifts book version, not the weird SoT / R:UE anti-tech for no good reason version).
ONNNNNNNNEEEEEE slight leetle problem...hardly worth mentioning.
I have yet to find a GM worth half a toss IRL or On-line who can actualy, y'know, game master Rifts (or any other game for that matter) to save their heathen souls.

They either favortize ONE player above all others, can't tell a story and have no concept of the source material, or are bean-counting rules-lawyering 'mechanics'.

-pant pant-
-Ahem-
'Scuze the rant.

Seriously though; even with the uber-stupid ammount of skills available to them, and damn good combat stats, a Cyberknight is more than just "In the name of all that is good and just and bunny rabbits, STOP!".
They can be comic book campy "shining armour" punchlines to bad jokes (this is the poor RP version). They can be tormented "Emo" anti-heros a-la Marvel Comics circa 1980+ to present day. The most enjoyable way to (at least in my case...seeing as how I've never been able to PLAY one for stated reasons) write a cyberknight up...is to have them "NORMAL" people that have been trained to deal with extraordinary situations.
Cyberknighst are NOT Jedi; they can and do make mistakes and will, from time to time, "fall into the darkness". How the knight deals with their foibles in regards to following THE CODE, is what makes them so fun to play, not just the combat bonuses.
I.E.: one CK I wrote up (never played) was Jullian Desanto; a Voodoo preist (real-world religeous, not the south-am P.O.S. occ) Cyberknight. PRINCIPLED if you can believe it. He just talked to ghosts and spirits from time to time and had an unhealthy festish (in the eyes of observers; he had no clue why people crossed the street away from him) for skull & bones motiefs. Though his religeous background did have some necromatic rituals, he despised undead and Necromancers.

See? NOT a blithering idiot in silver mail quoting bad iambic pentameter verse and 'screaming and leaping' at the nearest CS trooper with self-righteous blood in his eyes. Instead a Black-man in high-tech crusader armour painted matt-black, hemp necklace with voodoo festish around his gorget and his face painted (under the helmet) in white face in a skull patern. Spoke excellent creol-french, astronomer, and actualy would do oil-painting from time to time between quests. Great with kids too.

[Killer Cyborg]

Cyber-armour was never intended as the main armour of the knights, but as a last resort. I've never understood how people don't get that.

And while their psi-sword sucks at first level as anything more than a backup, it's not so bad once you gain a few levels.

Right.
And compare it to the other melee weapons in the main book.
At first level, it's as good as a vibro-knife, which is the only MD weapon a number of classes start with, and more than some get.
At second level, it's as good as a vibro-sword.
After that, unless you're fighting a Mind Melter (who was always meant to be the REAL champion of the Psi-Sword) or somebody with a TW Flaming Sword, you're going to have the better weapon.
And after a while, you even beat the guy with the Flaming Sword, and you don't even have to pay the ISP to do it.

[DocS]

You don't have to be badass to be a legend.

So we do agree on that cyberknights are absolutely not badasses... however...

Phenomenal combat skill that certainly implies a level of badassery.... which is totally not borne by the stats.

[

+1d4x10 SDC
+1 to init.
+1 attack (which, you should remember, meant 50% more attacks than an average first level character)
Gymnastics
4 WPs to start
HTH: Martial Arts

Does that impress you?
No?

Yeah, I figured.
THIS is what I talk about when I complain that people have a skewed view of Rifts Earth, that people hold adventuring classes up as the standard, and they're simply NOT.
Pit an average main book CK against an average main book Vagabond, and see who wins.

First question... does it get to be the same Vagabond whom you previously argued could kill juicers?

All I see is some bonuses.. but nothing that warrants the term 'Phenomenal'. 'Phenomenal' is skill choice? So any character class with the option to take HTH Martial arts, 4 WP's, and gymnastics are 'Phenomenal' in their combat abilities? +1 attack? Not hard to get. Even dog packs get that. +1 init? I can see why the description is so epic. If CS grunts got such bonuses, I wouldn't have been overwhelmed. There's nothing in that list that's really striking one way or another. Hasn't it clicked with you yet? You play your cyberknights exactly like you play your mages exactly like you play your vagabonds, and all seem equally effective at the same things.... doesn't that give you a sense that the classes in the RMB really aren't as different as they should be?

Phenomenal combat skills should be compared with the things a cyberknight would be *in combat* against. Since Cyberknights aren't walking around roughing up vagabonds, it's kind of silly to claim that their ability to do so is any statement of combat ability at all. Against non mega damage foes, yes, cyberknights are epic, as are rogue scholars with wilks pistols. However, against the mega-damage enemies cyberknights are supposed to be fighting..... they're essentially city-rats with bad experience tables.

Cyber-armour was never intended as the main armour of the knights, but as a last resort. I've never understood how people don't get that.

And while their psi-sword sucks at first level as anything more than a backup, it's not so bad once you gain a few levels.

Right.
And compare it to the other melee weapons in the main book.
At first level, it's as good as a vibro-knife, which is the only MD weapon a number of classes start with, and more than some get.
At second level, it's as good as a vibro-sword.
After that, unless you're fighting a Mind Melter (who was always meant to be the REAL champion of the Psi-Sword) or somebody with a TW Flaming Sword, you're going to have the better weapon.
And after a while, you even beat the guy with the Flaming Sword, and you don't even have to pay the ISP to do it.

Yes, compare with the other melee weapons in the main book. The psi sword isn't even as good as the vibro-sword or claws... Please, compare these 'phenomenal combat skills' with the class bonuses for the low-cost expendible dog pack mutant. Dog packs, expendible, second-raters...

how do they compare with your cyberknight?

The Psi sword from RMB, bad main weapon, bad backup, bad tertiary weapon! Cyber armor, bad armor, bad backup armor, literally the worst armor published in the game. For guys who have a page and a half talking about how badass they are

[Killer Cyborg]

You don't have to be badass to be a legend.

So we do agree on that cyberknights are absolutely not badasses...

Wrong.
I was just pointing out that you don't HAVE to be a badass to be a legend, which does NOT equate to "No Cyberknight can be a badass".

How much of a badass you are depends on what you're up against.
A CK against a vagabond or five is pretty badass.
A CK against a dragon or five isn't.

+1d4x10 SDC
+1 to init.
+1 attack (which, you should remember, meant 50% more attacks than an average first level character)
Gymnastics
4 WPs to start
HTH: Martial Arts

Does that impress you?
No?

Yeah, I figured.
THIS is what I talk about when I complain that people have a skewed view of Rifts Earth, that people hold adventuring classes up as the standard, and they're simply NOT.
Pit an average main book CK against an average main book Vagabond, and see who wins.

First question... does it get to be the same Vagabond whom you previously argued could kill juicers?

Nope.
Because THAT vagabond had some decent gear, and maybe some experience, I forget. The main book Vagabond doesn't.

All I see is some bonuses.. but nothing that warrants the term 'Phenomenal'. 'Phenomenal' is skill choice? So any character class with the option to take HTH Martial arts, 4 WP's, and gymnastics are 'Phenomenal' in their combat abilities?

No.
But if they take all those skills, they can be.
Of course, for most classes they won't have many skills left over, unlike the CKs.

+1 attack? Not hard to get. Even dog packs get that.

Dog pack members are pretty badass too.

+1 init?

Yeah, that's not very phenomenal.
Still, every bit helps.

I can see why the description is so epic. If CS grunts got such bonuses, I wouldn't have been overwhelmed. There's nothing in that list that's really striking one way or another. Hasn't it clicked with you yet? You play your cyberknights exactly like you play your mages exactly like you play your vagabonds, and all seem equally effective at the same things.... doesn't that give you a sense that the classes in the RMB really aren't as different as they should be?

No.
But it does make me think that they're not as different as you wish they were.
I think they were about where they SHOULD have been.

Phenomenal combat skills should be compared with the things a cyberknight would be *in combat* against. Since Cyberknights aren't walking around roughing up vagabonds, it's kind of silly to claim that their ability to do so is any statement of combat ability at all.

Really?
Where on earth did you get the idea that vagabonds are never thieves, murderers, bandits, assassins, or other types of troublemakers that the CKs are out to stop?

Against non mega damage foes, yes, cyberknights are epic, as are rogue scholars with wilks pistols.

You're catching on.

However, against the mega-damage enemies cyberknights are supposed to be fighting..... they're essentially city-rats with bad experience tables.

Roll up some supernatural predators from the main book.
Give a CK some decent basic gear, have him use it, and let me know how it turns out.
In my experience, they do pretty darn well. Better even than CS Grunts and Headhunters, pound for pound.

And compare it to the other melee weapons in the main book.
At first level, it's as good as a vibro-knife, which is the only MD weapon a number of classes start with, and more than some get.
At second level, it's as good as a vibro-sword.
After that, unless you're fighting a Mind Melter (who was always meant to be the REAL champion of the Psi-Sword) or somebody with a TW Flaming Sword, you're going to have the better weapon.
And after a while, you even beat the guy with the Flaming Sword, and you don't even have to pay the ISP to do it.

Yes, compare with the other melee weapons in the main book. The psi sword isn't even as good as the vibro-sword or claws...

Not at first level, no.
But they're not supposed to be.

When they level up, then they get more powerful.
As mentioned above.

[quotePlease, compare these 'phenomenal combat skills' with the class bonuses for the low-cost expendible dog pack mutant. Dog packs, expendible, second-raters...[/quote]

Dog Packs are expendable, but they're far from second-raters.

how do they compare with your cyberknight?

The Psi sword from RMB, bad main weapon, bad backup, bad tertiary weapon!

Already addressed, but I'll go over it again.
At first level, it's as good or better than a vibro-knife.
After that, it's at least as good as a vibro-sword, which was the best technological melee weapon in the game.

Cyber armor, bad armor, bad backup armor, literally the worst armor published in the game.

Only if you are pretending that it's supposed to be used exclusively, instead of as a last-ditch hope of survival once your real armor has been breached.

For guys who have a page and a half talking about how badass they are

Yup.

[Percy Ferkelberger]

Don't worry Killa Cyborg, in the new book coming out from Ferkalium books "Vagabond Uprising" the new Vagabonds will be more than capable of taking on armies of Cyber knights,

Especially with their new "Soap and Candy Magic". Those Coake lovers won't stand a chance...

[Talavar]

You don't have to be badass to be a legend.

So we do agree on that cyberknights are absolutely not badasses... however...

Phenomenal combat skill that certainly implies a level of badassery.... which is totally not borne by the stats.

[

+1d4x10 SDC
+1 to init.
+1 attack (which, you should remember, meant 50% more attacks than an average first level character)
Gymnastics
4 WPs to start
HTH: Martial Arts

Does that impress you?
No?

Yeah, I figured.
THIS is what I talk about when I complain that people have a skewed view of Rifts Earth, that people hold adventuring classes up as the standard, and they're simply NOT.
Pit an average main book CK against an average main book Vagabond, and see who wins.

First question... does it get to be the same Vagabond whom you previously argued could kill juicers?

All I see is some bonuses.. but nothing that warrants the term 'Phenomenal'. 'Phenomenal' is skill choice? So any character class with the option to take HTH Martial arts, 4 WP's, and gymnastics are 'Phenomenal' in their combat abilities? +1 attack? Not hard to get. Even dog packs get that. +1 init? I can see why the description is so epic. If CS grunts got such bonuses, I wouldn't have been overwhelmed. There's nothing in that list that's really striking one way or another. Hasn't it clicked with you yet? You play your cyberknights exactly like you play your mages exactly like you play your vagabonds, and all seem equally effective at the same things.... doesn't that give you a sense that the classes in the RMB really aren't as different as they should be?

Phenomenal combat skills should be compared with the things a cyberknight would be *in combat* against. Since Cyberknights aren't walking around roughing up vagabonds, it's kind of silly to claim that their ability to do so is any statement of combat ability at all. Against non mega damage foes, yes, cyberknights are epic, as are rogue scholars with wilks pistols. However, against the mega-damage enemies cyberknights are supposed to be fighting..... they're essentially city-rats with bad experience tables.

Cyber-armour was never intended as the main armour of the knights, but as a last resort. I've never understood how people don't get that.

And while their psi-sword sucks at first level as anything more than a backup, it's not so bad once you gain a few levels.

Right.
And compare it to the other melee weapons in the main book.
At first level, it's as good as a vibro-knife, which is the only MD weapon a number of classes start with, and more than some get.
At second level, it's as good as a vibro-sword.
After that, unless you're fighting a Mind Melter (who was always meant to be the REAL champion of the Psi-Sword) or somebody with a TW Flaming Sword, you're going to have the better weapon.
And after a while, you even beat the guy with the Flaming Sword, and you don't even have to pay the ISP to do it.

Yes, compare with the other melee weapons in the main book. The psi sword isn't even as good as the vibro-sword or claws... Please, compare these 'phenomenal combat skills' with the class bonuses for the low-cost expendible dog pack mutant. Dog packs, expendible, second-raters...

how do they compare with your cyberknight?

The Psi sword from RMB, bad main weapon, bad backup, bad tertiary weapon! Cyber armor, bad armor, bad backup armor, literally the worst armor published in the game. For guys who have a page and a half talking about how badass they are

I'd argue with most of these assertions, but Killer Cyborg already said most of what I would have. Suffice it to say psi-swords with a few levels are as good or better than any melee weapon that doesn't go for hundreds of thousands, if not millions of credits; +1 attack is still fairly significant as a combat bonus, and cyber-armour is a last resort.

[Vinny]

I've never played one.

[TechnoGothic]

I agree with Killer Cyborg on most of that.

Crusader Armor (worn) 50 mdc + Cyber-Armor 50 mdc = Badass Protection in a Fight.

Vibro-Sword (2d6 md) or Magic Sword (2d6 md - 4d6 md) as main Weapon/sword + Psi-Sword (1d6 md - 3d6 md) Free Instant Backup sword = Badass Combatant in a Fight

Training to use other weapons (ranged or Melee) = useful in a fight, period.

Not having to waste "Relatated Skills" to get HtH Martial Arts, 4 WPs, a +1 Attack without having to select Boxing (but who wouldnt anyways ), Good Physical Skills for free...
That means they can select more useful skills more easily than any other OCC in the book. CKs are hands Down the best trained OCC.

Cyber-Knights were almost the most perfect OCC in the RMB.

[mobuttu]

Besides, taking into account that some o those physical skills rise up PP, and thus his HtH attack bonuses, making him very good in melee combat.

[LostOne]

I've seen Kirn mentioned a couple times in this thread. But can't for the life of me remember what they are or what book they're in.

[Marrowlight]

The Kirn are a cat-like humanoid race out of the now-defunct Rifts: Manhunter book.

Darn those multi-publishing snafu's. . .

I think my favorite thing out of that book was the bloodletter class.

[DocS]

Roll up some supernatural predators from the main book.
Give a CK some decent basic gear, have him use it, and let me know how it turns out.
In my experience, they do pretty darn well. Better even than CS Grunts and Headhunters, pound for pound.

"Pretty darn well" as in, the cyberknight does roughly 25% better than the CS grunt (the CS grunt has top-notch equipment, the CK has lesser equipment, but an additional melee attack. The psi sword/psionics don't help much, and the cyber armor only helps if the supernatural menace is unable to roll above a 16).

Seriously, I think this would indeed solve the issue.

Actual, combat simulation. So, tell you what, I'll do this this weekend. And so should you. Not 'in your experience'. We will do this, mathematical simulation. The rules are simple.

1) The cyberknight: Decent.. basic.. gear. Tell me what gear you give him. I'll do it and use the same gear.
2) The Grunt is, of course, allowed top of the line CS infantry gear.
3) Run the numbers five times for each. That way we can lessen effects of natural 20's etc, for variation.

-Lets actually *do* this. I'll let you roll up the menace. And we simply measure, how many of this menaces the character can kill in sequence. The menace will, of course, simultaneous attack when appropriate, and use their abilities to full effect.

Both OCC's are combat trained, and can be assumed to be 'combat savvy', so run both characters with equal intelligence. All will have 10's down the line for stats (you get to add the physical bonuses to the cyberknight). Both have equal access to physical and weapon prof skills.

Roll up a menace and an equipment. After all, my whole frustration with the cyberknights is that they are nothing but theory, but in practice (and I used them in practice for years), the only way to use them effectively is to have them 'forget' they're cyberknights.

So, gimme a menace and some equipment. Lets do this. Oh yeah, lets see what you think of as 'better, pound for pound'. I call any increase less than 50%, marginal.

[Talavar]

Roll up some supernatural predators from the main book.
Give a CK some decent basic gear, have him use it, and let me know how it turns out.
In my experience, they do pretty darn well. Better even than CS Grunts and Headhunters, pound for pound.

"Pretty darn well" as in, the cyberknight does roughly 25% better than the CS grunt (the CS grunt has top-notch equipment, the CK has lesser equipment, but an additional melee attack. The psi sword/psionics don't help much, and the cyber armor only helps if the supernatural menace is unable to roll above a 16).

Seriously, I think this would indeed solve the issue.

Actual, combat simulation. So, tell you what, I'll do this this weekend. And so should you. Not 'in your experience'. We will do this, mathematical simulation. The rules are simple.

1) The cyberknight: Decent.. basic.. gear. Tell me what gear you give him. I'll do it and use the same gear.
2) The Grunt is, of course, allowed top of the line CS infantry gear.
3) Run the numbers five times for each. That way we can lessen effects of natural 20's etc, for variation.

-Lets actually *do* this. I'll let you roll up the menace. And we simply measure, how many of this menaces the character can kill in sequence. The menace will, of course, simultaneous attack when appropriate, and use their abilities to full effect.

Both OCC's are combat trained, and can be assumed to be 'combat savvy', so run both characters with equal intelligence. All will have 10's down the line for stats (you get to add the physical bonuses to the cyberknight). Both have equal access to physical and weapon prof skills.

Roll up a menace and an equipment. After all, my whole frustration with the cyberknights is that they are nothing but theory, but in practice (and I used them in practice for years), the only way to use them effectively is to have them 'forget' they're cyberknights.

So, gimme a menace and some equipment. Lets do this. Oh yeah, lets see what you think of as 'better, pound for pound'. I call any increase less than 50%, marginal.

Since everyone's statements about the uses of cyber-armour and the psi-sword fall on deaf ears with you, I'll say in terms of sheer power what can make a cyber-knight "better" than a grunt, or even a juicer or crazy: non-humans can be one. You want a Rahu-man cyber-knight? You got it, 4 extra attacks, natural MDC, supernatural strength.

How about a greot hunter or grackle tooth, or titan giant? Maybe an asgardian high elf? All book legal.

[Killer Cyborg]

Roll up some supernatural predators from the main book.
Give a CK some decent basic gear, have him use it, and let me know how it turns out.
In my experience, they do pretty darn well. Better even than CS Grunts and Headhunters, pound for pound.

"Pretty darn well" as in, the cyberknight does roughly 25% better than the CS grunt (the CS grunt has top-notch equipment, the CK has lesser equipment, but an additional melee attack. The psi sword/psionics don't help much, and the cyber armor only helps if the supernatural menace is unable to roll above a 16).

This will likely come down to us arguing about whether 25% is significant.
Personally, I think it is

Seriously, I think this would indeed solve the issue.

If nothing else, it could be fun.

Actual, combat simulation. So, tell you what, I'll do this this weekend. And so should you. Not 'in your experience'. We will do this, mathematical simulation. The rules are simple.

1) The cyberknight: Decent.. basic.. gear. Tell me what gear you give him. I'll do it and use the same gear.

Main Book gear only, because that's what we're arguing about; how the main book portrays CKs versus their actual capabilities.
Armor
Gladiator Armor: 70 MDC
Cyber-Armor: A.R. 16, 50 MDC
Weapons:
-Wilk's 447 Laser Rifle: 3d6 MD, 20 shots per clip
-NG-57 Ion Pistol: 3d6 MD, 10 shots per clip
-3 spare E-Clips
-Psi-Sword: 1d6 MD

2) The Grunt is, of course, allowed top of the line CS infantry gear.

Armor
Heavy Deadboy: 80 MDC

Weapons:
-C-12 Laser Rifle: 2d6 per shot, or 4d6 per burst of five.
60 shots total; 30 per long clip, 30 for the cannister
-C-18 Laser Pistol: 2d4 per shot
10 shots per short clip.
-Four extra clips per weapon
-Two grenades: 1 plasma (5d6 MD), one frag (2d6 MD)

Since we're doing this old-school, we'll ignore the Two Attacks for Living.
The Grunt will start with 2 attacks, and the CK will have 3.

3) Run the numbers five times for each. That way we can lessen effects of natural 20's etc, for variation.

So basically run the combat 5 times?
Works for me.

-Lets actually *do* this. I'll let you roll up the menace. And we simply measure, how many of this menaces the character can kill in sequence. The menace will, of course, simultaneous attack when appropriate, and use their abilities to full effect.

Both OCC's are combat trained, and can be assumed to be 'combat savvy', so run both characters with equal intelligence. All will have 10's down the line for stats (you get to add the physical bonuses to the cyberknight). Both have equal access to physical and weapon prof skills.

Roll up a menace and an equipment.

Will do.

After all, my whole frustration with the cyberknights is that they are nothing but theory, but in practice (and I used them in practice for years), the only way to use them effectively is to have them 'forget' they're cyberknights.

So, gimme a menace and some equipment. Lets do this. Oh yeah, lets see what you think of as 'better, pound for pound'. I call any increase less than 50%, marginal.

I'd probably go with 15% as the minimum, although I'd be disappointed if the CK didn't perform better than that.
Because to me, 15% better than a trained soldier is pretty impressive.


Anyway, here are the stats:


The Monsters:
+3 initiative
+1 strike
1 attack per melee
49 MDC each total
IQ: 5 (pretty stupid)
PS: 23
PP: 19
PE: 25
Spd: 5
Horror Factor: 9
PPE: 10
22' tall (extra MDC added to total)

Weapons:
-Large retractable claws- 3d6 MD
-Tail- 2d4 MD (not an extra attack)

Abilities:
-Nightvision
-Swim 90%

Powers:
-Calling
-Fire Bolt once per melee Damage: 4d6 MD, +4 strike

Feeds On: Flesh
Weakness: Water
Hunting Orientation: Packs of 13

Sir Robin
P.S 17
P.E. 15
Spd: 13
+1 initiative
3 attacks per melee
+3 to Roll

Private Joe
PS: 12
PE: 11
Spd: 20
2 attacks per melee
+2 to Roll

Already I can see one of the big problems; most characters are pretty much the same at first level.
After we do this simulation, let's try again with 5th level characters.

Are we agreed on the stats?

The scenario, I assume, is a standard: "You are on an infinite, featureless plane. There are monsters about to close in melee with you. Roll for init..."

[DocS]

Armor
Gladiator Armor: 70 MDC
Cyber-Armor: A.R. 16, 50 MDC
[/u]Weapons:[/u]
-Wilk's 447 Laser Rifle: 3d6 MD, 20 shots per clip
-NG-57 Ion Pistol: 3d6 MD, 10 shots per clip
-3 spare E-Clips
-Psi-Sword: 1d6 MD

2) The Grunt is, of course, allowed top of the line CS infantry gear.

Armor
Heavy Deadboy: 80 MDC

[/u]Weapons:[/u]
-C-12 Laser Rifle: 2d6 per shot, or 4d6 per burst of five.
60 shots total; 30 per long clip, 30 for the cannister
-C-18 Laser Pistol: 2d4 per shot
10 shots per short clip.
-Four extra clips per weapon
-Two grenades: 1 plasma (5d6 MD), one frag (2d6 MD)
The Monsters:
+3 initiative
+1 strike
1 attack per melee
49 MDC each total
IQ: 5 (pretty stupid)
PS: 23
PP: 19
PE: 25
Spd: 5
Horror Factor: 9
PPE: 10
22' tall (extra MDC added to total)

Weapons:
-Large retractable claws- 3d6 MD
-Tail- 2d4 MD (not an extra attack)

Abilities:
-Nightvision
-Swim 90%

Powers:
-Calling
-Fire Bolt once per melee Damage: 4d6 MD, +4 strike

Feeds On: Flesh
Weakness: Water
Hunting Orientation: Packs of 13

Sir Robin
P.S 17
P.E. 15
Spd: 13
+1 initiative
3 attacks per melee
+3 to Roll

Private Joe
PS: 12
PE: 11
Spd: 20
2 attacks per melee
+2 to Roll

Already I can see one of the big problems; most characters are pretty much the same at first level.
After we do this simulation, let's try again with 5th level characters.

Are we agreed on the stats?

The scenario, I assume, is a standard: "You are on an infinite, featureless plane. There are monsters about to close in melee with you. Roll for init..."

*Almost* agreed...

For starters, as you've mentioned the Cyberknight's Skill choices being such an important factor, assume both the CK and the Grunt are taking the available skills. Which means, give them both boxing. The CS grunt can also take H-H MA, so give it to him. Make the characters with skill sets similar to that of a player trying to make them effective. The CK gets acrobatics, and the grunt doesn't, but have both take all other relevant skills. If the CK skill choice are really that important, that should swing things towards the CK.

And cmon, you know the C-12 can do 2d6 or 4d6 MD per blast (I would assume the CS grunt uses the 4d6 setting). Where is this 'burst of 5' thing coming from? and give the CS grunt two plasma grenades, not one plas and one frag.

As for scenario, looks OK. I think it would get more exact results if the Character fought the beasties one-at-a-time, without any rest between. An endurance match if you will. But six of one, half a dozen of the other. When you give your results, just report which scenario you did. But both characters need to be doing the smart thing.

Already I can see one of the big problems; most characters are pretty much the same at first level.

Been my point since the beginning. Immediately I'm seeing that the Cyberknight and the Grunt will be using exactly the same tactics, except the CK has an extra attack, and the Grunt has bigger weapons with more ammo. I'll run it, and if we use my stat mods (minor changes), my intuition is that those extra clips for the grunt are going to make all the difference.

We'll see, I may run it a few times just to find the most effective combat tactics for the CK/grunt... There is one other consideration we may want to think of.... I guess, in good faith, we will need to decide on the volume of water in their canteens. The cyberknight gets two, the grunt gets one. I think a half-gallon per canteen is appropriate? And I think we can agree that it would require one successful demon/devil lore roll before the character can realize that the water will help. CS grunts can have demon devil lore, but cyberknights get it at +20, have the percentages be appropriate.

[DocS]

Already I can see one of the big problems; most characters are pretty much the same at first level.
After we do this simulation, let's try again with 5th level characters.

That's the *other* problem... it's not going to get much better for 5th level characters (despite that most characters never make it to 5th). I'll gladly do it, but then the only differences will be

Grunt: 4 attacks per melee

CK 5: attacks per melee
Psi-sword 2d6

The CK, with a rifle, still has only 20% more attacks (but his gun does only 75% of what the Grunt's does, and the psi sword only becomes a factor when he runs out of ammo)

[DocS]

1 attack per melee
Powers:
-Fire Bolt once per melee Damage: 4d6 MD, +4 strike

Boy, does that *ever* shift things in the Grunts favor! I do think its reasonable that the beasties will be using their one melee attack to do their highest-damage highest to-strike attack?

[Killer Cyborg]

*Almost* agreed...

For starters, as you've mentioned the Cyberknight's Skill choices being such an important factor, assume both the CK and the Grunt are taking the available skills. Which means, give them both boxing. The CS grunt can also take H-H MA, so give it to him. Make the characters with skill sets similar to that of a player trying to make them effective. The CK gets acrobatics, and the grunt doesn't, but have both take all other relevant skills. If the CK skill choice are really that important, that should swing things towards the CK.

Works for me.
I'll factor that in and post the new stats.

And cmon, you know the C-12 can do 2d6 or 4d6 MD per blast (I would assume the CS grunt uses the 4d6 setting). Where is this 'burst of 5' thing coming from?

That is, unfortunately, how the C-12 has always been supposed to work.
2d6 per shot, with a 5-shot burst that does 4d6 MD.

We could argue about that for a while, but I think it would be simpler to switch him to the C-14 Firebreather.
Agreed?

and give the CS grunt two plasma grenades, not one plas and one frag.

I picked the same weapons I'd go for if making a character, and there's enough out there that's impervious to fire/heat that I try not to have JUST plasma grenades; I mix it up a bit.
But I also thought at the time that the randomly rolled creature would have a chance at being impervious to fire, and it wouldn't have, so 2 plasma grenades is fine by me.

As for scenario, looks OK. I think it would get more exact results if the Character fought the beasties one-at-a-time, without any rest between. An endurance match if you will. But six of one, half a dozen of the other. When you give your results, just report which scenario you did. But both characters need to be doing the smart thing.

One at a time works for me.

Already I can see one of the big problems; most characters are pretty much the same at first level.

Been my point since the beginning. Immediately I'm seeing that the Cyberknight and the Grunt will be using exactly the same tactics, except the CK has an extra attack, and the Grunt has bigger weapons with more ammo. I'll run it, and if we use my stat mods (minor changes), my intuition is that those extra clips for the grunt are going to make all the difference.

First level characters aren't generally suppsed to set the world on fire, so I don't get the complaint.

We'll see, I may run it a few times just to find the most effective combat tactics for the CK/grunt... There is one other consideration we may want to think of.... I guess, in good faith, we will need to decide on the volume of water in their canteens. The cyberknight gets two, the grunt gets one. I think a half-gallon per canteen is appropriate? And I think we can agree that it would require one successful demon/devil lore roll before the character can realize that the water will help. CS grunts can have demon devil lore, but cyberknights get it at +20, have the percentages be appropriate.

Good thought; I'll factor it in.

[DocS]

Only two last quibbles...

That is, unfortunately, how the C-12 has always been supposed to work.
2d6 per shot, with a 5-shot burst that does 4d6 MD.

We're using the Main book rules, the Main book rules are indeed clear on the C-12, they also state it as the "Standard Weapon of the Infantry", it would be strange for the CS grunt to be using anything else. The flavor text of the weapon may be misleading, but the stats given are clear. I gave you first choice in good faith.... we should stick with that and the rules given for the weapon. It is also the only rifle where it is explicitly stated that it can be bursted, but for the purpose of this experiment, I think we should allow both the C-12 and the Wilks rifle to burst.

Anyways, a firebreather would argue about how many grenades would he have for it, etc... we should stick with the C-12.

(but that's my only quibble on the model).

First level characters aren't generally suppsed to set the world on fire, so I don't get the complaint.

For starters, they *are* supposed to be different from one another (so far, the stats have really underscored that these two classes are pretty interchangable, I was thinking of throwing a Cyber Doc in the mix to see how he compares... but once we get the model set up, then we can play). As for world on fire, well, in Palladium, 5th level characters are not that much bigger than first level guys (as we will find out in the next step).

I'm planning to do the model today and see. This is fun! Did you know that this is part of what I do for a living? I work with folks to set up mathematical models for experiments! Never tried it with gaming before.

[Killer Cyborg]

Only two last quibbles...

That is, unfortunately, how the C-12 has always been supposed to work.
2d6 per shot, with a 5-shot burst that does 4d6 MD.

We're using the Main book rules, the Main book rules are indeed clear on the C-12,

No, they really, really, really weren't.
The rules were so unclear that the majority of the players (including myself) misunderstood how the C-12 worked, thinking that it was a much more powerful gun than it actually was.

they also state it as the "Standard Weapon of the Infantry", it would be strange for the CS grunt to be using anything else.

Yup.
But since it usually takes pages and pages to argue with people about how the C-12 works, it would save time for the grunt to have the C-14.
With the grenades, it's actually a more powerful weapon anyway, for a while.

Anyways, a firebreather would argue about how many grenades would he have for it, etc... we should stick with the C-12.[/quote

Fully loaded weapon, no spares.

First level characters aren't generally suppsed to set the world on fire, so I don't get the complaint.

For starters, they *are* supposed to be different from one another (so far, the stats have really underscored that these two classes are pretty interchangable, I was thinking of throwing a Cyber Doc in the mix to see how he compares... but once we get the model set up, then we can play). As for world on fire, well, in Palladium, 5th level characters are not that much bigger than first level guys (as we will find out in the next step).

I'm planning to do the model today and see. This is fun! Did you know that this is part of what I do for a living? I work with folks to set up mathematical models for experiments! Never tried it with gaming before.

As soon as we settle the grunt's weapon issue.

[TechnoGothic]

Hows about you guys start a new Thread about the

Cyber-Knight vs CS Grunt

Post the results in both

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm revising each character as you suggested.
For each die roll for attribute bonuses, I'm assuming average (3.5 for d6, 2.5 for d4, etc.), rounding up where appropriate.

Sir Robin
H.P. 22 S.D.C. 113
Cyber-Armor: 50 MDC, A.R. 16
Gladiator Armor: 70 MDC

P.S. 21
P.P. 12
P.E. 18
Spd. 27

+1 initiative
4 attacks
+3 Parry
+3 Dodge
+10 Roll

Skills:
Demon Lore: 45%
Body Building
Gymnastics
HTH: Martial Arts
W.P. Sword +1 strike, +1 parry
Running
Wrestling
Acrobatics
Athletics
Sniper (+2 on Aimed Shot with rifles)
W.P. Energy Pistol
W.P. Energy Rifle

Equipment
-Wilk's 447 Laser Rifle: 3d6 MD, 20 shots per clip
-NG-57 Ion Pistol: 3d6 MD, 10 shots per clip
-3 spare E-Clips
-Psi-Sword: 1d6 MD
-2 Canteens (6d6 MD)

Private Joe
H.P. 19 S.D.C. 80
Heavy Deadboy Armor: 80 MDC

P.S. 19
P.P. 11
P.E. 15
Spd. 24

3 attacks
+3 Parry
+3 Dodge
+8 Roll

Skills:
Body Building
Running
W.P. Energy Pistol
W.P. Energy Rifle
HTH: Martial Arts
Athletics
Body Building
Boxing
Gymnastics
Running
Wrestling
Demolotions
Demon Lore: 25%

Equipment
-????? Laser Rifle:

-C-18 Laser Pistol: 2d4 per shot
10 shots per short clip.
-Four extra clips per weapon
-Two grenades: 2 plasma (5d6 MD)
-1 Canteen (6d6 MD)


Assuming that the above is agreed upon, once we nail down the Grunt's rifle situation, then that leaves 4 issues that I can think of:
-Canteen use. One action/attack to use the canteen? Or two; one to open it and one to splash?
I assume that each character gets one free Demon Lore check per combat, no more?
-Rate Of Fire
Officially, any weapons that had ROF: Standard (or Aimed, Burst, Wild), that didn't have a pre-set burst, could burst/spray as per the rules on p. 34 of the main book.
This means that the Wilk's 447, the NG-57, and the C-18 were all burst/spray capable. The C-14's laser was burst-capable, and the grenades could be fired in volleys of up to 4.
-The Cyberknight gets one suit of light armor in addition to his heavy armor. I assume that we're not going to give any time to rest between attackers, but wanted to make sure.
-We typically play that, against MDC creatures that don't list MDC per body location, that a called shot to the head inflicts 2x normal damage.
Agreeable?

[DocS]

No, they really, really, really weren't.
The rules were so unclear that the majority of the players (including myself) misunderstood how the C-12 worked, thinking that it was a much more powerful gun than it actually was.

The rules are clear on the C-12.

Damage, Setting 1 4D6, Setting 2 2D6, Setting 3, 6d6 SDC.
(As opposed to the C10, with no variable settings) Rate of fire, Aimed, Burst, Wild, see Modern Weapon Proficiency. Modern weapons proficiency, and look at bursts, P 34, of the main book. Short burst, Damage x2, +1 strike, etc. I'm willing to allow the Wilks gun to burst similarly (only because they never say what 'standard rate of fire' is), but the C-12 and the C10 are the only energy weapons in the main book that explicitly say they can burst (Saying 'standard' means it can burst also means the pistols can burst, and then begs the question, why is the notation different for the C10 and the C12?). Admittedly, explicitly stating that the C-10 and the C12 can burst does imply that the other guns can't, but making the CS the only folks in Rifts with burstable rifles does seem a bit much. So you're getting a big concession, with my being willing to agree that the Wilks gun and the CS gun would burst by the same rules.... however...

5 Pulses for 4d6 damage!? Not only does that not fit the rules, it also makes the C12 "heavy" rifle have less firepower than the C10 "Light" rifle.

So, you want to change to the C-14, because the C-12 is too confusing? So, lets break that down. How much damage does the grenade burst do on a C-14. How does it laser burst? Exactly how do you think rifles burst?

-Canteen use. One action/attack to use the canteen? Or two; one to open it and one to splash?

I'd say one to open, one to splash. And one, half-gallon splash per canteen.

I assume that each character gets one free Demon Lore check per combat, no more?

Seems OK, just one per wholesale combat. Which means, 25% of the time, the grunt will die with his canteens empty, and 75% he will die with his canteens full

-Rate Of Fire
Officially, any weapons that had ROF: Standard (or Aimed, Burst, Wild), that didn't have a pre-set burst, could burst/spray as per the rules on p. 34 of the main book.
This means that the Wilk's 447, the NG-57, and the C-18 were all burst/spray capable. The C-14's laser was burst-capable, and the grenades could be fired in volleys of up to 4.

Define 'Officially'. We're focused on the RMB. By the rules in the book, the only energy guns statted to burst are the C10 and the C12. That the pistol and the C10 (C10 has the same firing rate entry as the C12) have different firing rates is obvious. And the C12 has the same firing rate as the C10 (Identicle entries under 'rate of fire'), but the C-18 has a different firing rate (but the C-18 has the same firing rate as the Wilks rifle).

There's a sticky wicket. I think we should have the rifles burst-able (like P34, Automatic weapons), but not the pistols. If you don't like that, please give an alternate, non-ambiguous interpretation. Burst as a 'Machine gun'? Burst x number of rounds, and then roll to see if they all hit and have the damage be all or nothing?

-The Cyberknight gets one suit of light armor in addition to his heavy armor. I assume that we're not going to give any time to rest between attackers, but wanted to make sure.
-We typically play that, against MDC creatures that don't list MDC per body location, that a called shot to the head inflicts 2x normal damage.
Agreeable?

Correct, no wardrobe changes, and no headshots. As few 'House rules' as possible.

[DocS]

The character stats are the same as I get, so we're agreed on the stats, and the beastie.

[Killer Cyborg]

The rules are clear on the C-12.

Damage, Setting 1 4D6, Setting 2 2D6, Setting 3, 6d6 SDC.
(As opposed to the C10, with no variable settings) Rate of fire, Aimed, Burst, Wild, see Modern Weapon Proficiency. Modern weapons proficiency, and look at bursts, P 34, of the main book. Short burst, Damage x2, +1 strike, etc.

Read these threads:
viewtopic.php?t=26496&highlight=c12
viewtopic.php?t=38454&highlight=c12
viewtopic.php?t=44914&highlight=c12
viewtopic.php?t=45043&highlight=c12

I'm willing to allow the Wilks gun to burst similarly (only because they never say what 'standard rate of fire' is), but the C-12 and the C10 are the only energy weapons in the main book that explicitly say they can burst (Saying 'standard' means it can burst also means the pistols can burst, and then begs the question, why is the notation different for the C10 and the C12?). Admittedly, explicitly stating that the C-10 and the C12 can burst does imply that the other guns can't, but making the CS the only folks in Rifts with burstable rifles does seem a bit much. So you're getting a big concession, with my being willing to agree that the Wilks gun and the CS gun would burst by the same rules.... however...

Read CB1 (original, not revised), pages 7-11.
Specifically, p. 9:
"See the data and explanations under Burst or Sprays from automatic weapons and sub-machineguns in Rifts, p. 34. These rules apply to automatic energy weapons, as well as conventional, bullet shooting, automatic and semiautomatic weapons. Unless otherwise noted, most energy weapons are considered to be automatic weapons. Only weapons that specific limited number of shots per melee are not automatic."

Then look at the sample combat on p. 11, where a CS Grunt fights a CK.
The Grunt's "Coalition laser pistol" does 2d4 MD per shot, and is shown firing a long burst (5 shots from his clip of 10) for 2d4x3 damage.
They don't actually say specifically that he's using a C-18, but there's no other weapon he could have been using.
C-18 = ROF: Standard.

5 Pulses for 4d6 damage!? Not only does that not fit the rules, it also makes the C12 "heavy" rifle have less firepower than the C10 "Light" rifle.

A 5-shot pulse is roughly 20% of the 30-shot clip. 1 less, actually.
Which makes the 5-shot preset burst on the C-12 slightly more effective than firing short bursts from the C-10.
But yes, I agree that it's lame.

So, you want to change to the C-14, because the C-12 is too confusing? So, lets break that down. How much damage does the grenade burst do on a C-14. How does it laser burst? Exactly how do you think rifles burst?

Damage in a volley of grenades depends on how many you fire, and whether you are bursting or spraying. Spraying doesn't matter for this exercise, since we're just going against one target at a time.
A volley of 2 grenades does 4d6 damage. A volley of 3 does 6d6. A volley of 4 does 8d6 MD.
The C-12 can fire a volley of up to 4 grenades at a time.

The laser bursts according to the rules on p. 34 of the main book, under Semi-automatic and Submachineguns.
We can either use the original main book rules for this, or the revised rules for bursts/sprays from CB1.

-Canteen use. One action/attack to use the canteen? Or two; one to open it and one to splash?

I'd say one to open, one to splash. And one, half-gallon splash per canteen.

Okay.

I assume that each character gets one free Demon Lore check per combat, no more?

Seems OK, just one per wholesale combat. Which means, 25% of the time, the grunt will die with his canteens empty, and 75% he will die with his canteens full

no wardrobe changes, and no headshots. As few 'House rules' as possible.