Laser Resistant Skelebots

[Library Ogre]

SPARKLEBOTS!

[Jefffar]

FQ doesn't have AI technology - the CS doesn't have Glitter Boy technology = neither will swap for fear of giving the other too great an advantage when the civil war returns.

[Jefffar]

No, they don't.

The Skelebots were developed by Chi-town as an anti-glitterboy sysem incase they had to teach Free Quebec a lesson. The technology was never shared.

[Jefffar]

Nope.

They have all the stuff from the origional Main Book plus the IAR Abolisher from Sourcebook 1.

I don't think they have the jet or tank from Mercenaries and they have none of the new stuff. They did end up with the bulk of the navy and sunk most of the rest.

When they declared independance, they deported their Dogboys too.

[Braden Campbell]

They also, despite what the book says, kept all of the combat jet aircraft they had (as found in Coalition Navy)... because, quite eimply, they aren't that stupid.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Maybe, just maybe after they have kind of re-kindled their relantionship they'll be willing to share some more things.......but that would be left to a GM to GM basis IMO.

Why?

part of the break was the rest of the CS didn't WANT glitter boy technology being used in the first place.

[MASTERMIND]

I would loathe for those two to get back together honestly. The break has been coming since the first Rifts book came out and it was well written. To backtrack over all of that story and have them kiss and make up would be a travesty imho.

[Jefffar]

Actually FQ didn't want to share the technology with the rest of the CS.

To my knowleedge,the only powers on Rifts Earth with the ability to make glitter-bots are Cyberworks (as of Revised SB 1, Archie has glitter tech) and Triax (who got gltter tech from FQ and has their own line of automatons).

The Japanese and South Americans, while havign glitter tech dont have the advanced AI capabilities. NG has AI capabilites but no glittertech.

[DrBeau]

The Japanese ...dont have the advanced AI capabilities...

While I agree with everything, I think there's a possibility that Japan would have AI tech from the Golden Age. I don't recall seeing anything to the contrary. Unless I missed something, this would be a GM call.

[AdmTolval]

If you read the FQ World Book, it says something about FQ not trusting AI tech. So that leaves FQ out. Besides, who wants a shiny, bright, skeleton looking robot? I want my skelebots looking dark and menacing.

[9voltkilowatt]

Isnt Glitter technology supposed to be expensive? If thats the case would it even be cost effective to combine the two technologies?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Maybe, just maybe after they have kind of re-kindled their relantionship they'll be willing to share some more things.......but that would be left to a GM to GM basis IMO.

Why?

part of the break was the rest of the CS didn't WANT glitter boy technology being used in the first place.

Why did they go to war, for diffrences that were overcome. They said their pardons for going to war against them, they can very easily say their pardons against the GB technology.

Plus, anything can happen in rifts........like someon stated above, good be a good plot device of some kind of adventure.

Uhhh...yea. they no longer blame FQ for using GB technology.


That dosn't mean the rest of them want it now. highly unlikely.

[elecgraystone]

The CS can't figure out how to make a guided mini-missle, how are they going to figure out glitter-tech?

[Kesslan]

Honestly, I see no reason for the CS not to use glitter tech. Especially given that all their stuff as is, is taken from pre-rifts plans for NEMA gear. And GBs are no different.

Just that they dont -have- that tech for one reason or another. Ergo they want no one -else- to have it either.

Personally I allways found it a touch strange the CS never wound up with GB tech while FQ did. Or for that matter no one else did eitehr even with the recovery of all these pre-rifts manufacturing centers.

At least until lthat whole bit in SB1 Revised about Arch. Which explains some of it.

[AdmTolval]

From what I gather from alot of the books, the reason the Coalition wanted Free Quebec to disband there Glitter Boy army was that the CS didn't have glitter tech and FQ wasn't going to share.

[MASTERMIND]

From what I gather from alot of the books, the reason the Coalition wanted Free Quebec to disband there Glitter Boy army was that the CS didn't have glitter tech and FQ wasn't going to share.

That's the impression I got too.

[Rimmerdal]

From what I gather from alot of the books, the reason the Coalition wanted Free Quebec to disband there Glitter Boy army was that the CS didn't have glitter tech and FQ wasn't going to share.

That's the impression I got too.

Then this won't bode well for long term relations the NGR for th"skull heads"....

But back to topic. I can see Glitter armour for Ground troops and other non-Combat applications like Communications for FQ.

The CS wouldn't as policy employ a weapon they can't make or control.

[AdmTolval]

Triax could still do the combination of Laser Res. and AI's. They have an aircraft that has an Glitter Tech variant (Glitter Wing I think).

[Zer0 Kay]

For the same reason that the I beleive the CS isn't technologically advanced, just in ownership of Goldenage automated systems (older thread discussion); I beleive they are unable to manufacture Chromium. That is the major reason they disdane the use of GBs by FQ, because they can't produce the equipment. NGR and Triax being dominantly pre fall technology and education know how to modify their own factories to produce chromium. The CS's factories aren't their own... and they are still learning how to use them some 100 plus years later. So CS, no for sparklebots; but FQ could develop it with time... if they wanted to. Of course they could just realize that if they do make sparklebots and someone reprograms them that it just make them that much harder to take care of.

[Kalinda]

Isnt Glitter technology supposed to be expensive? If thats the case would it even be cost effective to combine the two technologies?

Yeah, that's my thinking on the subject as well. Glitter armor is expensive and difficult to manufacture, while skelbots are semi-disposable shock troops, the two are not all that compatible.

[Rimmerdal]

Isnt Glitter technology supposed to be expensive? If thats the case would it even be cost effective to combine the two technologies?

Yeah, that's my thinking on the subject as well. Glitter armor is expensive and difficult to manufacture, while skelbots are semi-disposable shock troops, the two are not all that compatible.

then use better bots and put Skelebot AI's in them or in bigger AI operated bots, think Glitter UAR's...or like another poster said aircraft.

Say is Glitter armour Radar resistant or reflective? I never thought about that...thil right now..

[Kesslan]

Isnt Glitter technology supposed to be expensive? If thats the case would it even be cost effective to combine the two technologies?

Yeah, that's my thinking on the subject as well. Glitter armor is expensive and difficult to manufacture, while skelbots are semi-disposable shock troops, the two are not all that compatible.

then use better bots and put Skelebot AI's in them or in bigger AI operated bots, think Glitter UAR's...or like another poster said aircraft.

Say is Glitter armour Radar resistant or reflective? I never thought about that...thil right now..

Techncially neither. ALso the way Palladium in general handles laser resistant armor is that by normal rules armor can only ever be resistant to one type of thing. Be it 'stealth' materials that make it hard to detect on radar, or resistant to specific damage type (Lasers, Fire, Electricity, Particle beams etc)

AU for example if I recall (it's in one of thsoe kinda books anyway) has assorted hull coatings etc that go along with this line of thought. Of course as a GM you can make what ever call you want on it. Based on what little I know of assorted things capable of reflecting lasers etc, none of them in any way affect radar. Ergo then radar works as normal vs glitterboy.

Nothing in the rulebooks says otherwise either so thats what I go with. Ultimately it's just a 'normal' PA suit that just happens to take 1/2 damage from lasers.

[Jefffar]

Well since as stealth coatings will work by absorbing and refracting radar energy and laser resistant coatings work by reflecitng light energy and light and radar are both parts of the electromagnetic spectrum, I suspect that it would be obscenely technically difficult to make armour that reflects lasers and reduces radar returns at the same time.

Incidently, the Triax Glitterwing is available in stealth or glitter coatings - not both.

[devillin]

Isnt Glitter technology supposed to be expensive? If thats the case would it even be cost effective to combine the two technologies?

Apparently not. Mutants in Orbit makes it seem like it isn't that expensive to glitterize a ship. Now the question is, what is the exchange rate between IOUs and credits (both Rifts Earth and Phase World).

[Kesslan]

Isnt Glitter technology supposed to be expensive? If thats the case would it even be cost effective to combine the two technologies?

Apparently not. Mutants in Orbit makes it seem like it isn't that expensive to glitterize a ship. Now the question is, what is the exchange rate between IOUs and credits (both Rifts Earth and Phase World).

Probalby similar to Phaseworld along the lines of a 2-4:1 conversion. I'm mostly basing this theory off the fact that MIO states space tech being 50+ years ahead of anything on earth

[R Ditto]

Isnt Glitter technology supposed to be expensive? If thats the case would it even be cost effective to combine the two technologies?

Apparently not. Mutants in Orbit makes it seem like it isn't that expensive to glitterize a ship. Now the question is, what is the exchange rate between IOUs and credits (both Rifts Earth and Phase World).

The orbitals have had a lot of more or less intact pre-rifts tech (and lots of free solar energy), and the makers of the original GBs to boot, from square one.
The more advanced tech gets, and the cheaper energy is, the easier (and cheaper) a thing is to make.
Although the 'original' type GB is apparently a little cheaper than the terrastial version, the orbital's basic GB is still a lot more expensive than other PA of similar size. So, chances are, the glitter material is still fairly expensive for the orbitals.

As for a cost conversion would be difficult in some ways.
The orbitals currency is based on water/ice.
1 IOU = 1 liter of water.
Some of those PA are going to require supertanker loads worth of water to get.
Anyone got any idea of how to get that much water/ice to a station in the first place to get that many IOUs?
(no wonder there is a lot of money in hauling huge chunks of ice...)
Trade/barter is starting to sound really good right now...

[Kesslan]

As for a cost conversion would be difficult in some ways.
The orbitals currency is based on water/ice.
1 IOU = 1 liter of water.
Some of those PA are going to require supertanker loads worth of water to get.
Anyone got any idea of how to get that much water/ice to a station in the first place to get that many IOUs?
(no wonder there is a lot of money in hauling huge chunks of ice...)
Trade/barter is starting to sound really good right now...

There's some good examples of how to pull something like this off quite cheaply in both Mechwarrior and other sci-fi games. Basically take a Massive Chunk of Space IceTm then appply a basic environmental control center to the 'top' and assorted thrust boosters to various points and a big ol engine to the end. Fire it up and preso. You now have turned that Massive Chunk of Space IceTm into a space ship!

Fly it to the nearest station with an escrot to destroy Ice Stealing PiratesTm along the way then cash in for mega IOU at the other end!

[Jefffar]

Which is the way it happens in MiO. It's in the book.

[R Ditto]

As for a cost conversion would be difficult in some ways.
The orbitals currency is based on water/ice.
1 IOU = 1 liter of water.
Some of those PA are going to require supertanker loads worth of water to get.
Anyone got any idea of how to get that much water/ice to a station in the first place to get that many IOUs?
(no wonder there is a lot of money in hauling huge chunks of ice...)
Trade/barter is starting to sound really good right now...

There's some good examples of how to pull something like this off quite cheaply in both Mechwarrior and other sci-fi games. Basically take a Massive Chunk of Space IceTm then appply a basic environmental control center to the 'top' and assorted thrust boosters to various points and a big ol engine to the end. Fire it up and preso. You now have turned that Massive Chunk of Space IceTm into a space ship!

Fly it to the nearest station with an escrot to destroy Ice Stealing PiratesTm along the way then cash in for mega IOU at the other end!

There is the age old problem... you need money to make money.
Chances are someone who needs to make a lot of money isn't going to have all of the equipment and manpower needed to turn a giant chunk of ice into a big cash infusion.
More often than not, one will have to start small, from a small ship using some cables to move ice around, slowly working up to a bigger ship, and later getting the large drives needed, turning the bigger ship from ice hauler to a ship that tows the large engines and other stuff.

The escort is also going to be a slight problem, in finding someone that is capable of prodiving effective escort and who can be trusted.
Make sure they are well payed, or one may find themselves set upon by ice pirates that offer the escorts a larger share of that ice, then the ice movers have a problem when one, many, or all of the escorts change sides. There could also be the problem of a mutiny, the escorts decide to skip the nice payroll and go for the entire thing.

There is one other problem with going for large chunks of ice. Competition. Other ice haulers, pirates, mercs, and just about anyone else who wants it all for themselves. It could be a battle just to see who gets there first, and who can get it back to collect payment.

[Spark]

Isnt Glitter technology supposed to be expensive? If thats the case would it even be cost effective to combine the two technologies?

Yeah, that's my thinking on the subject as well. Glitter armor is expensive and difficult to manufacture, while skelbots are semi-disposable shock troops, the two are not all that compatible.

As glitter technology is expensive the only Rifts organization that would or could make a mass production AI robot with the laser resistant coating would be ARCHIE-3. He's the only one that has the resources and technically only works with robots so that's what he's left with.

Also I want to fix a minor mistake mentioned earlier. FQ never had Skelobots because they didn't fully trust Chi-town. It's in the book that they were worried that if a war or a dispute happened Chi-town could turn the Skelobots FQ had on it's own troops and people. That is the reason they don't have the CS AI technology. It works out now that they have a partnership with Triax, so if they wanted they could make AI robot (cannon fodder) without fear of a Chi-town invasion taking them over.

[Zer0 Kay]

Well since as stealth coatings will work by absorbing and refracting radar energy and laser resistant coatings work by reflecitng light energy and light and radar are both parts of the electromagnetic spectrum, I suspect that it would be obscenely technically difficult to make armour that reflects lasers and reduces radar returns at the same time.

Incidently, the Triax Glitterwing is available in stealth or glitter coatings - not both.

Not entirely correct it could glitter like a GB and be angular like the F-117. As far as the Glitterwing... maybe it has an EM field or some other form of ECM to spoof radar.

[Kesslan]

There is the age old problem... you need money to make money.
Chances are someone who needs to make a lot of money isn't going to have all of the equipment and manpower needed to turn a giant chunk of ice into a big cash infusion.

Well granted I was making it seem considerably easier. But even in MW you have issues like that. Competitors, pirates, etc. Actually in MW Mercs PC game you do something like that. Your merc group is hired to run protection on it, and you wind up fighting another merc group who's trying to blow up the ice chunk.

In this case it's a very water poor plannet paying for this massive ice asteroid to be droped into their atmosphere. Turns out the enemy mercs are hired by some massive company that was selling the plannet water and isnt too happy about them trying to become self reliant.

The thing is with the Rifts version of MIO there would likely be several large operations such as this, all with their own mini fleets. And then quite a few small time independants who are mostly pulling in stuff for their own uses with any excess going to help pay the bills etc.

The Rifts version of MIO if I recall has somethin glike 5x as many ships etc in space. In any even the Rifts version is actually a decent sized community. But even then I dont think their quite so big as to have priate attacks and wars terribly often. I mean litteraly besides the space stations the only other place for folk is on the Moon and thats effectivey just the CAN republic or what ever. And its hardly hospitable.

Course I also dont see why some one hasnt gone and beaten the snot out of the bugs on Mars by now.

[R Ditto]

There is the age old problem... you need money to make money.
Chances are someone who needs to make a lot of money isn't going to have all of the equipment and manpower needed to turn a giant chunk of ice into a big cash infusion.

Well granted I was making it seem considerably easier. But even in MW you have issues like that. Competitors, pirates, etc. Actually in MW Mercs PC game you do something like that. Your merc group is hired to run protection on it, and you wind up fighting another merc group who's trying to blow up the ice chunk.

In this case it's a very water poor plannet paying for this massive ice asteroid to be droped into their atmosphere. Turns out the enemy mercs are hired by some massive company that was selling the plannet water and isnt too happy about them trying to become self reliant.

MW Mercs, eh? You would have to bring up one of the few MW games I don't own...
In MiO the chances of someone blowing up ice would be rare unless it was an outside/non-terrastrial force, such as the Arkhons, who could risk/handle the loss of a large amount of ice. I could see something closer to snatch and run attacks, go in, blast a chunk off, secure it, and get away. The escorts of the haulers of the main chunk won't be able to pursue far without risking leaving the main chunk unguarded.

The thing is with the Rifts version of MIO there would likely be several large operations such as this, all with their own mini fleets. And then quite a few small time independants who are mostly pulling in stuff for their own uses with any excess going to help pay the bills etc.

The Rifts version of MIO if I recall has somethin glike 5x as many ships etc in space. In any even the Rifts version is actually a decent sized community. But even then I dont think their quite so big as to have priate attacks and wars terribly often. I mean litteraly besides the space stations the only other place for folk is on the Moon and thats effectivey just the CAN republic or what ever. And its hardly hospitable.

There are many smaller independent stations/habitats.
pg 32-35 talks about independents and such, pg 61 makes mention to increase those numbers by several times and other changes for Rifts MiO. freebooters/miners goes to 20k, and that many more are self sufficient. It also says there are twice as many pirates.

Course I also dont see why some one hasnt gone and beaten the snot out of the bugs on Mars by now.

It comes down to problems and logistics.
Problem 1: Gravity
At 2.5 times more gravity, it rules out much help from the CAN.
Also, with .38g and an atmosphere, even ships capable of landing on the moon probably couldn't land there.

Problem 2: Bugs.
There are 15k bugs.
There PS/PE is effectively supernatural, and they have at least 130 MDC each. Even the 'weak' bugs can probably go tossing around a GB with little trouble.
Toss in the 'home team' advantage, the bugs are adapted to Mars, and know its terrain, and their other assorted capabilities.

Problem 3: Logistics
Moving all that stuff around.
Part of the year, Mars will only be a few dozen million miles away, the other part of the year, you face a trip up to 250 million miles, not including detouring around the sun..
Those would be some LONG trips... which means packing supplies and materials needed to actually support all those forces for trips of weeks or months away from the orbitals. You would practically need flying hydroponics/agricultural ships just to help deal with all of the food requirements, plus air, water and waste recycling needs.

Problem 4: Divided Forces.
The more stuff put into dealing with the bugs, the less stuff the orbitals have to protect themselves. Less ships to patrol and escort ships, which gives pirates a little extra breathing room.
It also weakens any defensive effort that can be put forth should the Arkhons decide to take advantage of the reduced number of troops/ships in orbit.

[Kesslan]

Eh I honestly dont see the oribit issue being quite so big. Half the reason that Rifts orbit would be so bloody lethal is just the junk zipping about. I mean lets put it this way.

Today, there is an ever growing and major issue with space junk. Especially so after the Chinese blew up that anti-sat test missile. Some of the debris zipping around up there from that alone is not only apparently in the same orbit level as the international space station. But is going so fast they cant detect half of it.

And that wasnt the only stuff they were worried about. Now, occasionally the stuff reenters the atmosphere and burns up. But alot of it hasnt. CE level they'd have had -alot- of stats etc up there going by MIO.

There is also, if I recall an entire trashed space station sitting in orbit making the matter worse. Top that up with all the assorted kill sats, yet more space junk etc and the issue is at the very least not only very bad, but also self renewing.

Even if entering/exiting orbit wasnt a huge issue from the assorted kill sats, the junk field around earth would likely be a huge issue to work around as well.

Course alot of the space aspect of Rifts doesnt make a lick of sense. Since apparently the space community cant be bothered to turn so much as a single camera lense towards earth, nor do the CS or Triax ever apparently bother to use a telescope to peer out into space as part of their efforts to launch a space program.

I eman if they did bother to do that they no doubt would easily see that OMG! People are still up there! Efforts to contact anyone up there would no doubt follow etc. INstead all they do is fire off a bunch of rockets. And Triax not only does that but fires a TON of missiles ahead of their last attempt to 'clear out' the kill sats. Never mind that all that debris alone would probably kill their probe.

I would have also expected Japan to have made some sort of equal attempt as well.

The whole thing makes me wish some one who knew a fair bit about this kinda stuff would do a Rifts specific re-write of MIO to explain some of this. Not to mention update the MIO timeline.

Then again it's also why I tend to agree with the crowd that feel MIO isnt really quite 'cannon'.

[Library Ogre]

Hmmmm... instead of missiles, why not use a sufficient range and power laser or P-Beam to burn things out of orbit?

[Kesslan]

Weren't the Skelebots initially created with Xicticks in mind? Little use for laser resistance there...

Ehh I dont honestly recall but I dont -think- so. I'm pretty sure it was flat out designed for disposable shock troops to help pad the numbers of troops on the field. The CS afterall only has so many actual living people. On the other hand they can cheaply and easily crank out tons of skelebots.

They do hold human life as a sacred thing afterall. The idea is to swarm targets with skelebots, maybe toss in some mutants along with them (Or after them) then send in the actual human troops to mop up.

The only real issue with making skelebots laser resistant vs not is how much more it would raise the cost. While skelebots yes, do get thrown against the masses of inhuman hordes, they also are sent after more mundane enemies.

In the end it would come down to a cost/benifit ratio. If glitter tech is just barely possible, and thus very expensive. It's likely (and ironically) only going to be used on things that would be very expensive to loose in the first place. As it gives them that slight added edge.

If on the other hand you get glitter tech to the level that Archie or The Republicans have it, then I see no reason for them NOT to make skelebots out of it. Skelebots cost more to make than body armor does by far. And it would still give them an added edge against quite a few opponents that they would run up against. Since lasers are still by far the #1 energy weapon in use.

[devillin]

Weren't the Skelebots initially created with Xicticks in mind? Little use for laser resistance there...

Ehh I dont honestly recall but I dont -think- so. I'm pretty sure it was flat out designed for disposable shock troops to help pad the numbers of troops on the field. The CS afterall only has so many actual living people. On the other hand they can cheaply and easily crank out tons of skelebots.

Nah, skelebots are Golden Age technology, or at least, everything points that way. After all, the Mechanoids hacked them pretty easily, and we know the access they had to Archie's memory banks. I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't another bit of information passed on by the Republicans.