Rituals vs Invocations

[thorr-kan]

One of the strengths of Palladium's magic system is that any spell can be a ritual or an invocation. I was introduced to this magic system through BTS1, so it really struck a chord with me. But over time and different game lines, I've come to wonder if certain spells shouldn't *always* be rituals.

Nightbane goes that route, making some summoning and some enchanting spells rituals only: Call Creature of Light, Call Nightland Denizen, Charm Weapons, Temporary Enchantment. For myself, I wonder if expanding that requirement to any circle, summoning, calling, binding, and enchanting spell might be an interesting campaign rule?

Has anyone used ritual magic similar to this in their game?

[Warshield73]

In general I have anything that creates (Golom, zombie, etc.) be ritual only. I also use rituals as a way to limit mages by allowing them to get rituals instead of invocations to limit its use in combat or other situations.

[thorr-kan]

In general I have anything that creates (Golom, zombie, etc.) be ritual only. I also use rituals as a way to limit mages by allowing them to get rituals instead of invocations to limit its use in combat or other situations.

I can see the former. The latter is an idea I hadn't considered. But it would be a logical outcome of setting decisions and of fighting cultists.

I think part of my preference for rituals for some spells is basing protection circles and summoning on translations of the Summoner's arts from Palladium Fantasy. That's an impression I got from reading BTS1 back in that day.

[ShadowLogan]

Some of the entries in the Wizard list do seem to be restricted to Rituals and do not allow Spell versions already. I'd also say anything that requires physical components is likely also a ritual even if it isn't stated to be.

[Warshield73]

Some of the entries in the Wizard list do seem to be restricted to Rituals and do not allow Spell versions already. I'd also say anything that requires physical components is likely also a ritual even if it isn't stated to be.

Agreed, this goes back to my anything physical rule. If you have to have a lump of clay or a dead body, ritual. Have to draw a circle on the ground, ritual only.

In general I have anything that creates (Golom, zombie, etc.) be ritual only. I also use rituals as a way to limit mages by allowing them to get rituals instead of invocations to limit its use in combat or other situations.

I can see the former. The latter is an idea I hadn't considered. But it would be a logical outcome of setting decisions and of fighting cultists.

I think part of my preference for rituals for some spells is basing protection circles and summoning on translations of the Summoner's arts from Palladium Fantasy. That's an impression I got from reading BTS1 back in that day.

The difference between invocation and ritual has been a problem from the beginning and it has never really been cleared up. Along these lines some spells would likely be invocation only. Call lightning, carpet of adhesion, spells along those lines might be invocation only.

What I would like, especially for BTS and Heroes but also for all other games, is a way for non-mages to cast rituals like you see on shows like Buffy and Supernatural. I do this with scrolls now but it would be better if there was a set system for this.

[thorr-kan]

What I would like, especially for BTS and Heroes but also for all other games, is a way for non-mages to cast rituals like you see on shows like Buffy and Supernatural. I do this with scrolls now but it would be better if there was a set system for this.

There was a post about this on one of the Palladium FB pages years ago that gave playtest rules for this. Alternatively, the d20 incantation rules in d20 Modern, D&D 3E's Unearthed Arcana, or Pathfinder RPG, would be a good fit.

Or judicious use of the variant rules in the Through the Glass Darkly from Nightbane. The Principles of Magic special skill lets you cast spells, the Sorcerous Proficiencies can grant your spells. A small sacrifice of skills for the ability to do a bit of magic.

[thorr-kan]

Here it is! FB login may be required. Not my content. Caveat Emptor. Etc.



ETA: And Pact Magic, as a bonus.

[Warshield73]

What I would like, especially for BTS and Heroes but also for all other games, is a way for non-mages to cast rituals like you see on shows like Buffy and Supernatural. I do this with scrolls now but it would be better if there was a set system for this.

There was a post about this on one of the Palladium FB pages years ago that gave playtest rules for this. Alternatively, the d20 incantation rules in d20 Modern, D&D 3E's Unearthed Arcana, or Pathfinder RPG, would be a good fit.

Or judicious use of the variant rules in the Through the Glass Darkly from Nightbane. The Principles of Magic special skill lets you cast spells, the Sorcerous Proficiencies can grant your spells. A small sacrifice of skills for the ability to do a bit of magic.

I'm not a huge fan of Glass Darkly but there are a few things to use there. I think the main reason I don't do it is that the magic system is fairly fragile and like I said earlier we don't have great definitions of what a ritual is vs an incantation. Also, I have rarely needed this in RIfts as there is almost always a mage in the group and really it just fits BtS and my dark version of HU/NB.

What I envisioned was a way for ordinary people to do rituals like protection circles, tracking spells, maybe even open a rift like you see in shows like Supernatural or even Buffy. To balance things out I planned to require non-mages to have components or even artifacts that an actual spellcaster wouldn't need. This would be a lot of work for a house rule so I never did much with it. The most of what I did list a few things for a couple of spells like portal to the Nightlands and such.

I think a system like this would work for most PB games but like I said especially for BtS, NB, and HU.

[green.nova343]

main thing I tend to see as the differences:

• Invocations can primarily only draw PPE from the caster/talisman/ley line. Rituals can have multiple people (including non-casters) contribute PPE...including a "blood sacrifice". Yes, I know that theoretically you could kill someone/some animal to cast an invocation, but that not only is messy on the carpet but you're going to go through sacrifices way too quickly.
• Invocations are fairly quick to cast -- 1 or 2 melee actions tops -- so are ideal for combat. Rituals require a lot more prep -- longer incantations, perhaps a "sacred place", might even require a celestial alignment (or simply using the extra PPE, see prior item) -- but theoretically should then result in a stronger spell strength.
• This is where we get into more "house rule" than canon rules. Invocations are what makes someone a wizard/mage/magic-user/whatever you call it. They're using their own magic knowledge, PPE base, &/or access to magic/TW items to push the spell out. Unpowered mooks need not apply. More importantly, the exact mechanism behind the spell (trigger word the caster prefers, hand gesture, etc.) can differ from mage to mage: could be cultural ("Ah, he's obviously from the Ice Islands, their Fire Bolt spells are distinctive"), could be where they were trained ("Hmmm...that particular forking of the fingers for Lightning Bolt with that arm twist, that's a hallmark of the Babbington Institute of Magery...") or who trained them ("Hah! Waving their arms around for Wind Gust like that...she must have studied under Professor McItridge, he was always big on dramatic gestures..."), could even be just the mage's particular preference ("You said he shouted "Fuego!" before torching the ogre with a blast of fire? Damn...that one is Big Trouble, steer clear of him..."). But a ritual...now you're talking about something where the steps are extremely rigid, almost certainly spelled out in a particular tome, probably banned on several planets & in multiple dimensions. Think the Necronomicon from Evil Dead, or the Book of Life/Book of the Dead from The Mummy. And when I say the steps are meticulously written down, I mean that while they might be written down in some ancient or esoteric language, they're written in such a way that any idiot who manages to read the words & follow the ritual's steps to the letter can cast the spell (provided enough PPE is provided), even if they're not a mage. Again, just like in Evil Dead or The Mummy, where simply reading the ancient Sumerian or Egyptian activated the spell (even though the readers not only didn't know what would happen, they didn't even believe that magic worked).

That last one is where you get all sorts of cults for your BTS1/2, Nightbane, or even Rifts campaign setting. Some idiot finds an ancient tome long thought to be lost, they (or someone they hire/threaten) translates it, & then they follow the ritual. Presto...some ancient eldritch horror is now walking the Earth again, or they managed to cast some Spell of Legend (although it sucked the souls of half the cultists to do so), or they're discovered by a mage lacking in any scruples who decides to take advantage of said tome.

[thorr-kan]

What I would like, especially for BTS and Heroes but also for all other games, is a way for non-mages to cast rituals like you see on shows like Buffy and Supernatural. I do this with scrolls now but it would be better if there was a set system for this.

There was a post about this on one of the Palladium FB pages years ago that gave playtest rules for this. Alternatively, the d20 incantation rules in d20 Modern, D&D 3E's Unearthed Arcana, or Pathfinder RPG, would be a good fit.

Or judicious use of the variant rules in the Through the Glass Darkly from Nightbane. The Principles of Magic special skill lets you cast spells, the Sorcerous Proficiencies can grant your spells. A small sacrifice of skills for the ability to do a bit of magic.

I'm not a huge fan of Glass Darkly but there are a few things to use there. I think the main reason I don't do it is that the magic system is fairly fragile and like I said earlier we don't have great definitions of what a ritual is vs an incantation. Also, I have rarely needed this in RIfts as there is almost always a mage in the group and really it just fits BtS and my dark version of HU/NB.

What I envisioned was a way for ordinary people to do rituals like protection circles, tracking spells, maybe even open a rift like you see in shows like Supernatural or even Buffy. To balance things out I planned to require non-mages to have components or even artifacts that an actual spellcaster wouldn't need. This would be a lot of work for a house rule so I never did much with it. The most of what I did list a few things for a couple of spells like portal to the Nightlands and such.

I think a system like this would work for most PB games but like I said especially for BtS, NB, and HU.

Having just rediscovered the cultists description in BtS1, it is possible something could be standardized from that.

[thorr-kan]

I'm not a huge fan of Glass Darkly...

How can you not love TtGD? It and Mysteries of Magic are master-class developments of the Palladium magic system!

Which don't suit everybody's tastes or tables; I get that. And my enthusiasm for them aside, I don't insist not likely them is badwrongfun.

Also, I have rarely needed this in RIfts as there is almost always a mage in the group and really it just fits BtS and my dark version of HU/NB.

It would fit a modern, lower mana world better, I agree. BtS, NB, HU, DR, even TMNT and N&SS/MC.

I think there's design space for a hedge mage and kitchen witch subsytem to fit this need. I also think there's room for a pact magic subsystem that is not a full-on witch or warlock OCC. This would be an excellent model for a fey bargain, someone who keeps the old ways, or a devout but mundane follower of something.

None of the three would be a threat to a real mage. But they would be useful allies to hunters, exorcists, or other adventurers. It could also server as an interesting focus for a PC.

I think this is a discussion that we might take to another thread.

[Library Ogre]

How can you not love TtGD? It and Mysteries of Magic are master-class developments of the Palladium magic system!

TtGD was open for a lot of MoM's development.

[Warshield73]

I'm not a huge fan of Glass Darkly...

How can you not love TtGD? It and Mysteries of Magic are master-class developments of the Palladium magic system!

Which don't suit everybody's tastes or tables; I get that. And my enthusiasm for them aside, I don't insist not likely them is badwrongfun.

I don't hate it, to me it's just not a great fit with NB. Some of the magic stuff is good and I have used it in the past. I do agree with you about Mysteries of Magic, even though I don't play fantasy that has been a great book to explain terms that had been left undefined for decades.

I think my biggest complaint with MoM is that it is too PFRPG. It should have been geared system not so much as a revision or update more of a polish. In fact I have been thinking about it and if they ever decide to do a system wide update, a Palladium 2.0 if you will, that might be a great way to do it. Here is a system wide magic book, here is psionics, just to play test it a little before the new system.

Also, I have rarely needed this in RIfts as there is almost always a mage in the group and really it just fits BtS and my dark version of HU/NB.

It would fit a modern, lower mana world better, I agree. BtS, NB, HU, DR, even TMNT and N&SS/MC.

I think there's design space for a hedge mage and kitchen witch subsytem to fit this need. I also think there's room for a pact magic subsystem that is not a full-on witch or warlock OCC. This would be an excellent model for a fey bargain, someone who keeps the old ways, or a devout but mundane follower of something.

None of the three would be a threat to a real mage. But they would be useful allies to hunters, exorcists, or other adventurers. It could also server as an interesting focus for a PC.

I think this is a discussion that we might take to another thread.

Agreed.

[thorr-kan]

[

I don't hate it, to me it's just not a great fit with NB. Some of the magic stuff is good and I have used it in the past. I do agree with you about Mysteries of Magic, even though I don't play fantasy that has been a great book to explain terms that had been left undefined for decades.

I think my biggest complaint with MoM is that it is too PFRPG. It should have been geared system not so much as a revision or update more of a polish. In fact I have been thinking about it and if they ever decide to do a system wide update, a Palladium 2.0 if you will, that might be a great way to do it. Here is a system wide magic book, here is psionics, just to play test it a little before the new system.

I can see that.

Palladium's systems, being "Megaversal," so seem to lend themselves to generic sourcebooks at first glance. I mean, if you squint a bit, Palladium Magic, Palladium Pyschics, Palladium Martial Arts, Palladium Kitchen Sink, all make sense. But then it would be a lot like the GURPS line. I'm not certain the change wouldn't remove Palladium's specific charm. But I've had similar ideas, so there's that.

TtGD was open for a lot of MoM's development.

Yeah, you and I have had a least part of this discussion a few times.

[Warshield73]

I agree that making the magic truly universal would make it generic but that is not really what I am proposing. A system wide magic book would define terms and maybe set up most of the invocations and rituals including listing ingredients and types of artifacts needed.

Each core book would then take that and make it specific to the setting by creating OCCs, the specific artifacts, and levels of PPE available. They could even have modifiers for the spells in terms of range, damage, duration, PPE cost, even the availability of the spell. This would make it much easier to run magic in all PB games while avoiding the problem of making the settings too generic.

For the purposes of this conversation I think the advantage of a system like this would be giving clear distinctions between invocations and rituals and could even allow for some variations. For instance a particular spell might be a level 3 ritual, fairly easy to create like a simple protection circle but maybe the invocation for it would be 6th or even 7th level as the concentration needed to manifest it without physical ingredients.

[ShadowLogan]

What I would like, especially for BTS and Heroes but also for all other games, is a way for non-mages to cast rituals like you see on shows like Buffy and Supernatural. I do this with scrolls now but it would be better if there was a set system for this.

Well for rituals you only really need x1 magic user by RAW, everyone else could be vega-bonds who participate (Nega-psychics, Borgs, and similar likely can't).

Still magic items might be a way to perform Rituals w/o being a mage. We know magic items can function for (and exist to be used by) non-mages to perform/cast magic. Perhaps this is how you get non-mages to perform rituals, the use of a magic "device" is involved as part of the ritual (though here I would think you'd end up with at least two versions of the Ritual: one for mages and one for "devices"). Said device should be related to what the ritual is aiming to create. The "device" might need to be procured before hand (ex. a Maxpray Shamblr gem from CB1r has necromatic powers to do necromatic like rituals), though in some cases I could see the construction of the "device" as part of the ritual using highly detailed instructions (usually involving Circle/Pentagrams, but here it has to be done a certain highly specific way given even Summoners in PF can't just duplicate a Circle they find willy-nilly and how I would look for inspiration on to get non-mages doing magic rituals)

[Warshield73]

What I would like, especially for BTS and Heroes but also for all other games, is a way for non-mages to cast rituals like you see on shows like Buffy and Supernatural. I do this with scrolls now but it would be better if there was a set system for this.

Well for rituals you only really need x1 magic user by RAW, everyone else could be vega-bonds who participate (Nega-psychics, Borgs, and similar likely can't).

Still magic items might be a way to perform Rituals w/o being a mage. We know magic items can function for (and exist to be used by) non-mages to perform/cast magic. Perhaps this is how you get non-mages to perform rituals, the use of a magic "device" is involved as part of the ritual (though here I would think you'd end up with at least two versions of the Ritual: one for mages and one for "devices"). Said device should be related to what the ritual is aiming to create. The "device" might need to be procured before hand (ex. a Maxpray Shamblr gem from CB1r has necromatic powers to do necromatic like rituals), though in some cases I could see the construction of the "device" as part of the ritual using highly detailed instructions (usually involving Circle/Pentagrams, but here it has to be done a certain highly specific way given even Summoners in PF can't just duplicate a Circle they find willy-nilly and how I would look for inspiration on to get non-mages doing magic rituals)

This is where we get back to the "poorly defined" part of our conversation. For an actual spell caster what makes it a ritual and not just an invocation? I mean yes a mage can do a ritual all by there lonesome but what else do they need? Crystals and gems? Chalk or salt for a circle? A flower from the tallest mountain or vine from the deepest trench? A Coke and a smile? What do they need?

Here's a good example, we are told in the books that fairy wings are used in rituals. Which ones? To do what? What if, in order to cast a ritual, you needed something either expensive or hard to get. I was thinking specifically about things like talisman, scroll, or amulet when I first started this but I also go back to shows like Supernatural and Buffy/Angel. Rituals should be more than slightly up-powered invocations, they should have something more and maybe allow for some things you can't do with invocations.

Imagine if while preparing for an attack and the tech guys are laying out mines and digging pit traps the mage is laying down rituals. Maybe the mage set up a ritual that when he runs on one spot it teleports him to another so he can move through the battle field or they are expecting something big so he links 3 or 4 Annihilate rituals to a single activation point so he can light up the heavy hitter with something big. This could give the scholarly mages some added punch without turning them into Superman.

As for two different rituals I had something else in mind. You start with a ritual for the mage, this is what it needs and this is the invocation you must speak. If you are a non-mage then it may be a "simple" matter of researching the requirements and seeing if you can substitute. Maybe the mage can do it on their own but for normies they need 3. Maybe the mage needs one ruby but normies need 1 each. Maybe the mage can make the necessary circle out of iron but normies need pure gantrium.

Just the way I was looking to go.