Techno Wizard Casting Through a Machine Question

[Kaughnor]

Hi everyone, I'm new to forum but not Rifts. I ran across a youtube channel called Legion of Myth over the weekend and gorged on all their Palladium content (especially the interviews with Kevin Siembiedia) and pulled out my old rule books as a result. I have not held these books in my hands for over 20 years. I've probably rolled up 20 new characters or so these last few days lol.

Anyway, my introduction aside, I have a question about the Techno-Wizard. Can they use a vehicle as a spell focus? I ask this because one of the videos Legion of Myth had: highlighted a rule where you cannot cast from inside a vehicle. I get the rational for that rule if you were a traditional caster; however, the techo-wizard is special from what I can tell.

More specifically, I want to start a new Techno-Wizard starting with a Mountaineer as his starting vehicle. I envision the ATV being a mechanical extension of himself that he seldom leaves due to psychological/fearful of the world reasons. If the vehicle had a turret mounted on it with a gun, could i cast offensive spells through the Mountaineer then through the gun as one giant techno spell focus (thereby getting around the rule no casting out of a vehicle)

Eventually I envision him becoming more sure of himself as he gains experience to break out of his shell (with the help of another character I made - an outspoken female grakle tooth operator), but for the first level or two I want him hiding from the world.

So at the end of the day am I pushing it making the ATV as a whole his techo spell focus??

Thanks for any responses that might come my way.

[mobuttu]

Hello, and welcome to the forums.

Eventhough it's a great PC idea, as a GM, I wouldn't allow that because it breaks the no-spells-from-insite rule.

Besides, if I get it properly I would say that you design and mount several TW devices on the ATV to replicate the spells that the TW can cast.

Hope this helps.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The rule in its fullness is,....If the vehicle Is a MDC construct you can't cast magic into, nor out of it.

(At least that was the rule before RUE came around. I'm sure to be corrected if things changed since then.)
[I 99% sure that this rule was introduced to keep the CS from just loosing everything to magic user parties played smartly.]
<Why of the rule? Apparently even mundane MDC constructs block the flow of the magic... But then again this block magic from working on the wet bits of FC Borg chars too...so *shrugs*>
{There is a rule that says, in HU, that chars can't Teleport into vehicles, as a general rule. So there there are parallel rules in the other PB games.}
---
Now if the vehicle has a TW spell-casting component that is designed to cast the magic outside, the vehicle can cast magic outside of itself while the magic user or Psion that is powering it is inside the vehicle. The problem is aiming the magic. That is something the user can't do via thought with the above TW magic item, the aiming would have to be done mechanically. (it is a problem with how the TW magic items are presented in canon text.) Also, the TW magic item can only cast what spells that it was made to cast.
---
Now there is the terminology aspect...
Also, PB does not have magical focuses within its canon rules set.
(There is an option 'magic focus' in a Rifter article. But it only gives the caster a bonus to casting spells of some sort. +level of effect or spell str....or something.)

Since the TW mage is mechanically oriented, a more proper set of words to say what you mean is to use the words 'Magic Conduit'. Which in its word meaning, something that lets a magic user put magic through to an other side.
Even having a Magic Conduit, the magic user would need to be able to see the intended target, to target anyone/-thing/-area.

Here is the however, if you have a magic conduit that lets you cast magic from inside the vehicle....magic users outside the vehicle would also be able to cast magic to the inside your vehicle.

[ShadowLogan]

There is RAW in the TW OCC in Rifts Ulimiate Edition (pg128) that allows them to cast spells via a (even a non-TW modified, though it can be their own TW modified) mechanical device that acts as a channel/focus.

Instead of spell casting with a mere word and a gesture, the Techno-Wizard needs an apropriate mechanical device through which to concentrate his thoughts and focus his spell. [...] For the machine oriented Techno-Wizard, he needs a device as his delivery system.

What the device is, and how it functions, also makes a difference. To fire the Fire Bolt he needed a mechanism like a gun because it was a logical energy (or bullet) firing machine to begin with. It shoots, so it can fire his magic spell. Get the idea? So if the Techno-Wizard wanted to cast See the Invisible, he could NOT use a gun because it doesn't make sense. he would need some type of binoculars, googles, glasses or optic system to focus his spell through for him to See the Invisible with the item.

None of the examples in the text utilize a vehicle, put personal objects they can handle which is why I think it might be IFFY if you could use a vehicle or at the very least would complicate the logical spell to machine relationship required. It might also be worth considering how the channel can be created in this case to, does it require you to have direct contact with the appropriate subsystem (ex. cast Fire Bolt via a side mounted gun that you are directly touching) or can it make its way via a more general contact (a remote-control system on the inside)? At this point it would be a GM call that could vary.

Now a TW could modify their vehicle with all sorts of TW-gizmos (the general limit is 4, but there might be ways around that) that would avoid the issue all together as previously mentioned, which would be the way to go.

[Orin J.]

If the vehicle had a turret mounted on it with a gun, could i cast offensive spells through the Mountaineer then through the gun as one giant techno spell focus (thereby getting around the rule no casting out of a vehicle)

Okay, so there's two issues here. The first is can you cast offensive spells through a mounted weapon attached to a vehicle. Given the way the techno-wizard's limitations work, i'm going to say yes it should as a TW- HOWEVER. The second issue is "Does the entire turret, the turret and the vehicle it's mounted on, or the weapon inside of the turret serve as the focus" and to this one i say it can only work if the TW is in the turret operating the weapon as the weapon itself, not the turret or the dude's whole ride that counts as the focus, And THAT only if you're physically using direct controls and not a remote control setup. So you cannot cast spells through the mountaineer, into the gun, and then through the gun as a focus. You can't be in the driver's seat, you have to be up in the turret using the gun as the focus.

There cannot be any layers of distance between the technowizard and the mechanical focus, it's gotta be in his grimey little hands. That's the ruling i feel is most solid and fair.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The second issue is "Does the entire turret, the turret and the vehicle it's mounted on, or the weapon inside of the turret serve as the focus"

The thing is .....There It No such idea as a 'Magic Focus' in the canon PB game system. So leave the talk about magic foci for D&D.

If you talk about using TW magic items with the lexicon of the PB game system it makes you present ideas that can actually fit the game system being talked about.

---
A mounted TW weapon is just a weapon that has been turned into a TW magic items that has been mounted in a turret of some kind. For a normal TW weapon there has to be ether a physical touch to the weapon or a magical weapons board (a MWB is more used in Starships because of the scales involved) that is magically connected to the TW weapon and turret to let it work. If the TW weapon has been made so mundanes can use it too, then the weapons just need to be mounted in a turret that has a trigger puller, and is only powered till the PPE clip runs out.

Could the psi power tele-mech. power be used to control the computer that controls the turret...yep. but that doesn't count as physical contact. Even so, said control would not let the TW Char cast any spell thought the TW weapon....it would let the TW aim and trigger the TW weapon. But only the magic effect the TW weapon was made to create.

[Aermas]

I would allow it as long as you were relatively close/touching the component. Like using a light spell through the headlights, you'd have to touch the electrical switch or components to cast it, you can't just be locked in a box & channeling it through the entire vehicle.

[Orin J.]

The second issue is "Does the entire turret, the turret and the vehicle it's mounted on, or the weapon inside of the turret serve as the focus"

The thing is .....There It No such idea as a 'Magic Focus' in the canon PB game system. So leave the talk about magic foci for D&D.

The only examples for the technowizard require it in contact with the machine casting the spell to use it, and i'm calling that machine the focus to smooth the description.
If you don't make this distinction, then there's nothing preventing the technowizard from casting their spells through other people's nearby devices to kill each other and cause mayhem (say, the TW casting armor of the bizzare onto a CA officer's armor as they enter a room because they're in contact with the same wall as he opens the door to make everyone start firing at them) which is clearly openly in defiance of how the power is intended to work, as written.

The technowizard having to cast through a machine is a limitation, not a power and does not grant them any abilities not possessed by other spellcasters, and so the spells must follow the logic of normal spellcasting. the means that as a requirement the machine they need to cast through must be on the caster's person or in-hand, which for all fucntional purposes can be described as serving as sthe focus of the spell get out of here with that "i never said those words" nonsense.

[Grazzik]

I would allow it as long as you were relatively close/touching the component. Like using a light spell through the headlights, you'd have to touch the electrical switch or components to cast it, you can't just be locked in a box & channeling it through the entire vehicle.

Agreeing with Aermas, I'd also allow it; however, I'd go so far as to allow the TW to channel through the vehicle (I see the vehicle as a whole, rather than a collection of parts), as long as the integrated component is fit for the spell's purpose.

The rules for the TW are written in a way that is unnecessarily convoluted I think to hide the fact that the OCC is overly predicated on the Rule of Cool, rather than a serious consideration of what magic means in a tech-centric culture - the Psi-Tech does a much better job of bridging the gap as an xCC. The need for toggles and switches and hands on components is IMO a consequence of the Rule of Cool being imposed to create a steampunk or retro feel for the mage, rather than acknowledging that technology evolves and becomes embedded in the environment to the point that it is practically invisible. I'd envision the TW being more akin to the Psi-Tech in terms of their relationship with technology and able to use any technology that is fit for purpose, rather than requiring anachronisms like steering wheels or triggers. What if the Mountaineer ATV is driven using flat panel touchscreen displays and weapons are controlled by the same panel in an ergonomic and intuitive user interface? Then the vision of TW "style" falls apart and shows how it is more fluff than substance. No, I much prefer TW mages that can actually use tech invented after 1995 and so can use the vehicle as a whole as a conduit (at least have fingers on the panel) with the magic manifesting through the vehicle's integrated components. Regular casting, in the case that there is no appropriate component on the vehicle, is still blocked.

Alternatively, just drive a convertible speedster rather than a ATV or install a retractable cover over the pilot's seat.

[Aermas]

Agreeing with Aermas, I'd also allow it; however, I'd go so far as to allow the TW to channel through the vehicle (I see the vehicle as a whole, rather than a collection of parts), as long as the integrated component is fit for the spell's purpose.

The rules for the TW are written in a way that is unnecessarily convoluted I think to hide the fact that the OCC is overly predicated on the Rule of Cool, rather than a serious consideration of what magic means in a tech-centric culture - the Psi-Tech does a much better job of bridging the gap as an xCC. The need for toggles and switches and hands on components is IMO a consequence of the Rule of Cool being imposed to create a steampunk or retro feel for the mage, rather than acknowledging that technology evolves and becomes embedded in the environment to the point that it is practically invisible. I'd envision the TW being more akin to the Psi-Tech in terms of their relationship with technology and able to use any technology that is fit for purpose, rather than requiring anachronisms like steering wheels or triggers. What if the Mountaineer ATV is driven using flat panel touchscreen displays and weapons are controlled by the same panel in an ergonomic and intuitive user interface? Then the vision of TW "style" falls apart and shows how it is more fluff than substance. No, I much prefer TW mages that can actually use tech invented after 1995 and so can use the vehicle as a whole as a conduit (at least have fingers on the panel) with the magic manifesting through the vehicle's integrated components. Regular casting, in the case that there is no appropriate component on the vehicle, is still blocked.

Alternatively, just drive a convertible speedster rather than a ATV or install a retractable cover over the pilot's seat.

If the TW had a mental link to it, I wouldn't mind a touch less connection, im not advocating for retrofuture buttons & switches. But its still technology & needs an interface, regardless of what that interface is, & the spell needs a reasonable tech based foci for its effect. If a TW was in power armor, it couldn't make a light effect unless the PA had flashlights built in, or you could reasonable argue its laser weapons could work for that particular effect, you wouldnt just be able to make it glow. Just like I wouldn't allow carpet of adhesion to pop out of a laser rifle or railgun, you'd need some sort of water/goo nozzle to do it.

We could really use some rule/ability to better elaborate on a TWs tech-intuition. Basically expand the TW Pilot skill into something similar to the Psi-Tech

[Zer0 Kay]

Think this is still the longest rules based thread.
viewtopic.php?t=24975&hilit=This+is+the ... never+ends

[Zer0 Kay]

I have always translated that as any spell which is direct fire, where the conjured projectile originates at the caster, and has a corporeal projectile can't be fired through the vehicle. Simply put your shooting at someone through your vehicle. But something like call lightning where it is you directing Mystic energy from somewhere else to come down and smite your target... sure. The mage is always the source of control but the mage is not always the source of the affect which effects the target. Incorporeal spells where the mage is the source but the transmission is incorporeal like teleportation can be cast while in the vehicle to a point within its range as the transmission of the object is incorporeal. Now if said teleportation actually picked up the object and moved it from point a to point be it could not be cast through a vehicle... unless a big enough opening was available.

[Mlp7029]

Similar to another reply I would only allow use of individual parts of the Mountaineer as conduits unless the spell being cast was capable of affecting the whole vehicle and was being cast on the vehicle. If the weapon was mounted on a turret ring maybe with a small MDC gun shield like you see on some vehicles in war movies or the news I would allow the TW to use the gun to cast thru because he/she is outside the walls of the vehicle. I would count the gunshield as cover per the ranged combat rules. In our game CS troops preferentially target mages first so doing what I described would make the mage a target big time. My mage character dressed like a merc for several levels to avoid the “kill the mage first” policy.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The only examples for the technowizard require it in contact with the machine casting the spell to use it, and i'm calling that machine the focus to smooth the description.

Using terminology that is not in the lexicon for Technowizardry is not helping your argument. This is because you are not speaking the language (technocan) of Technowizardry. It would help your arguments if you spoke in the Technowizardry technocan. Otherwise you are not speaking the same language as the people you are trying to convince you are right.

At the moment you are not speaking in the terms of Technowizardry, and you are not accepting the correctly put relevant answers to your ideas by people who do understand how TW magic items work (and put them in the terms of Technowizardry) under the rules given in RUE.

Your Idea of a magic item that is a conduit that lets a TW cast any of the spells that the TW knows at someone outside the TW's vehicle Can Not happen. Because of the limitations on the TW casting spell magic directly. The TW has to have a TW magic item specifically built to cast that specific spell.
Please reread the 1st paragraph under "Spell Casting" in the TW OCC.

[Zer0 Kay]

How about a weapon which is loaded from within the vehicle like a tanks cannon and rather than the cannon being enchanted the munitions. Even combine them with tank munitions types. So HEAP, HESH, APFSDS and cannister. Each modifies the spell in a different way so maybe:
Standard shell- no spell modification, whatever the TW embues upon it is what it does.
HEAP- Increase damage reduce range or duration whichever is more detrimental
HESH- the spell doesn't cast on the target but on the other side of the target. No other modification
APFSDS- higher save required
Canister round- reduced range or damage for area of effect enhancement

Though the barrel is not enchanted maybe have an attachment like the apex muzzle device for airsoft. Granted you can't really apply backspin to a shell but you can do it with magic. Device added to the end of the barrel may be adjusted to cause the round to suddenly drop at a desired range has to be "dialed in" first shot is unlikely to go where you want it. Device may be rotated to cause the 90 degree turn to be in a desired direction perpendicular to the rounds original trajectory. Up, left, right, etc.
Automation device allows this to be controlled from inside the tank.
Targeting system takes the desired location and does the manipulation for you. Maybe reduces the number of misses before you hit. Maybe the device will miss d10 time before you can actually roll to hit and the targeting system reduces it to d6 and the advanced targeting system to d4. Or 6, 4 and 2 with a coin flip determining if the first round is going on the right direction or not.

[Killer Cyborg]

I have a question about the Techno-Wizard. Can they use a vehicle as a spell focus? I ask this because one of the videos Legion of Myth had: highlighted a rule where you cannot cast from inside a vehicle. I get the rational for that rule if you were a traditional caster; however, the techo-wizard is special from what I can tell.

There's nothing technically stopping a Techno-Wizard from using a tech vehicle as his delivery system/spell focus, BUT remember that the delivery system has to be appropriate to the spell being cast: for a directed energy blast or such you need a gun, and for a sensory spell like See The invisible you need some kind of tech vision-based sensory device.
And I can't think of any spells offhand that would be appropriate for using a vehicle as a spell focus in this way.

I think the better way to look at it is to look at the vehicle as a collection of tech devices, each of which could be used as a focus for different spells.
If the vehicle has a periscope or some kind of camera built in, that could be used for Detect Invisible.
If there is a gun turret, that could be used to cast offensive spells like Fire Bolt.

But keep in mind that the mage would have to be able to touch the spell focus, or part of it.
If there's a camera on the outside of the vehicle, but the camera is connected to a monitor inside the vehicle, I'd allow the TW to use the Monitor to cast Detect Invisible, using the camera as an effective part of the monitor.
If there's a gun turret where the gun is accessible to be touched by people inside the vehicle, that's fair game.
If the gun has to be manned by somebody on the outside of the vehicle in a separate turret section that the mage is not in, that's not fair game.

Other than that, it's good to understand WHY mages inside vehicles cannot cast spells outside of the vehicle; it's because vehicles are walls, and you can't cast most magic through physical objects.
There's nothing special about vehicles, other than that they are solid objects, and magic can't generally go through solid objects.
You cannot, for example, stand on one side of a brick wall, put your hand up to the wall, and cast Fire Bolt on the other side of the wall.
You similarly cannot stand on one side of a glass wall, put your hand up to the wall, and cast Fire Bolt on the other side of the wall.
All you can do is cast Fire Bolt AT the wall.
Same deal with vehicles.

IF, on the other hand, there was a gun mounted in the wall, with the trigger end on the side with the mage, and the barrel sticking out the other side of the wall, a techno wizard could cast Fire Bolt using the gun as a channel because the gun is already penetrating the wall--the magic doesn't have to penetrate the wall, only travel through the gun.

Now, IF a GM wanted to allow a vehicle as a single tech object, and let you cast Globe of Daylight out of the headlights, Fire Bolt out of the gun mounted on top (which you'd still need to aim in the right direction, unless the GM is really, really generous), cast Cloud of Smoke out of the exhaust pipes, and so forth?
I might argue that it's not canon, but it doesn't seem like the most munchkin ruling either, depending on the power level of the general game.
As long as everybody involved is cool with it, go for it.

[Killer Cyborg]

The only examples for the technowizard require it in contact with the machine casting the spell to use it, and i'm calling that machine the focus to smooth the description.

Using terminology that is not in the lexicon for Technowizardry is not helping your argument.

Read RUE 128.

Using a piece of technology as his spell focus does not harm the object in any way, it simply becomes the temporary conduit through which he can channel his focus and energy. Once the spell has ended, the device is as non-magical as it was before casting the spell. Only full Techno-Wizardry con ersion permanently adds magical capabilities to a device.

Saying "focus" instead of "spell focus" is clear and correct enough that anybody familiar with the RUE rules for technowizards will not have trouble understanding what is meant; it is in the lexicon for technowizardry.

The TW has to have a TW magic item specifically built to cast that specific spell.
Please reread the 1st paragraph under "Spell Casting" in the TW OCC.

You are incorrect.

Please read RUE 128 for the TW spellcasting rules.
They explain how spell focuses work, and make it clear that they are NOT the same as standard TW devices.

[Orin J.]

Thanks for the assist KC, i'm too lazy to bother with hunting down references to cite.

[Curbludgeon]

I rather like the idea of certain "schools" of Technowizardry adopting standardized kit of functioning traditional tech items which can be temporarily purposed as a spell focus/delivery system. A lot of ground in the invocation spell list can be covered with an inexpensive set of optics/handgun/dark cloak with a heating element or ultrasonic insect repellant/watch with biometric trackers/rebreather/hand computer with a built in speaker/e-clip with the most common adaptors.

As an example, maybe Lazlo agents have made suggestions to Northern Gun of small scale production of multi-purpose devices which otherwise wouldn't make much sense. Examples might include a laser distance sensor with a water filtration straw on one side and a pulse oximeter on the other, or the above cloak having some micro-speakers so as to be used in both protective and aura-based spells.

[Zer0 Kay]

The only examples for the technowizard require it in contact with the machine casting the spell to use it, and i'm calling that machine the focus to smooth the description.

Using terminology that is not in the lexicon for Technowizardry is not helping your argument.

Read RUE 128.

Using a piece of technology as his spell focus does not harm the object in any way, it simply becomes the temporary conduit through which he can channel his focus and energy. Once the spell has ended, the device is as non-magical as it was before casting the spell. Only full Techno-Wizardry con ersion permanently adds magical capabilities to a device.

Saying "focus" instead of "spell focus" is clear and correct enough that anybody familiar with the RUE rules for technowizards will not have trouble understanding what is meant; it is in the lexicon for technowizardry.

The TW has to have a TW magic item specifically built to cast that specific spell.
Please reread the 1st paragraph under "Spell Casting" in the TW OCC.

You are incorrect.

Please read RUE 128 for the TW spellcasting rules.
They explain how spell focuses work, and make it clear that they are NOT the same as standard TW devices.

Oww, still got it.

[Zer0 Kay]

I have a question about the Techno-Wizard. Can they use a vehicle as a spell focus? I ask this because one of the videos Legion of Myth had: highlighted a rule where you cannot cast from inside a vehicle. I get the rational for that rule if you were a traditional caster; however, the techo-wizard is special from what I can tell.

There's nothing technically stopping a Techno-Wizard from using a tech vehicle as his delivery system/spell focus, BUT remember that the delivery system has to be appropriate to the spell being cast: for a directed energy blast or such you need a gun, and for a sensory spell like See The invisible you need some kind of tech vision-based sensory device.
And I can't think of any spells offhand that would be appropriate for using a vehicle as a spell focus in this way.

I think the better way to look at it is to look at the vehicle as a collection of tech devices, each of which could be used as a focus for different spells.
If the vehicle has a periscope or some kind of camera built in, that could be used for Detect Invisible.
If there is a gun turret, that could be used to cast offensive spells like Fire Bolt.

But keep in mind that the mage would have to be able to touch the spell focus, or part of it.
If there's a camera on the outside of the vehicle, but the camera is connected to a monitor inside the vehicle, I'd allow the TW to use the Monitor to cast Detect Invisible, using the camera as an effective part of the monitor.
If there's a gun turret where the gun is accessible to be touched by people inside the vehicle, that's fair game.
If the gun has to be manned by somebody on the outside of the vehicle in a separate turret section that the mage is not in, that's not fair game.

Other than that, it's good to understand WHY mages inside vehicles cannot cast spells outside of the vehicle; it's because vehicles are walls, and you can't cast most magic through physical objects.
There's nothing special about vehicles, other than that they are solid objects, and magic can't generally go through solid objects.
You cannot, for example, stand on one side of a brick wall, put your hand up to the wall, and cast Fire Bolt on the other side of the wall.
You similarly cannot stand on one side of a glass wall, put your hand up to the wall, and cast Fire Bolt on the other side of the wall.
All you can do is cast Fire Bolt AT the wall.
Same deal with vehicles.

IF, on the other hand, there was a gun mounted in the wall, with the trigger end on the side with the mage, and the barrel sticking out the other side of the wall, a techno wizard could cast Fire Bolt using the gun as a channel because the gun is already penetrating the wall--the magic doesn't have to penetrate the wall, only travel through the gun.

Now, IF a GM wanted to allow a vehicle as a single tech object, and let you cast Globe of Daylight out of the headlights, Fire Bolt out of the gun mounted on top (which you'd still need to aim in the right direction, unless the GM is really, really generous), cast Cloud of Smoke out of the exhaust pipes, and so forth?
I might argue that it's not canon, but it doesn't seem like the most munchkin ruling either, depending on the power level of the general game.
As long as everybody involved is cool with it, go for it.

Use any vehicle, including a cardboardbox with wheels (joke necromancy) for a flight, swim or teleportation spell as "appropriate" focus as it is a de ice for transportation?

[Orin J.]

I have a question about the Techno-Wizard. Can they use a vehicle as a spell focus? I ask this because one of the videos Legion of Myth had: highlighted a rule where you cannot cast from inside a vehicle. I get the rational for that rule if you were a traditional caster; however, the techo-wizard is special from what I can tell.

There's nothing technically stopping a Techno-Wizard from using a tech vehicle as his delivery system/spell focus, BUT remember that the delivery system has to be appropriate to the spell being cast: for a directed energy blast or such you need a gun, and for a sensory spell like See The invisible you need some kind of tech vision-based sensory device.
And I can't think of any spells offhand that would be appropriate for using a vehicle as a spell focus in this way.

I think the better way to look at it is to look at the vehicle as a collection of tech devices, each of which could be used as a focus for different spells.
If the vehicle has a periscope or some kind of camera built in, that could be used for Detect Invisible.
If there is a gun turret, that could be used to cast offensive spells like Fire Bolt.

But keep in mind that the mage would have to be able to touch the spell focus, or part of it.
If there's a camera on the outside of the vehicle, but the camera is connected to a monitor inside the vehicle, I'd allow the TW to use the Monitor to cast Detect Invisible, using the camera as an effective part of the monitor.
If there's a gun turret where the gun is accessible to be touched by people inside the vehicle, that's fair game.
If the gun has to be manned by somebody on the outside of the vehicle in a separate turret section that the mage is not in, that's not fair game.

Other than that, it's good to understand WHY mages inside vehicles cannot cast spells outside of the vehicle; it's because vehicles are walls, and you can't cast most magic through physical objects.
There's nothing special about vehicles, other than that they are solid objects, and magic can't generally go through solid objects.
You cannot, for example, stand on one side of a brick wall, put your hand up to the wall, and cast Fire Bolt on the other side of the wall.
You similarly cannot stand on one side of a glass wall, put your hand up to the wall, and cast Fire Bolt on the other side of the wall.
All you can do is cast Fire Bolt AT the wall.
Same deal with vehicles.

IF, on the other hand, there was a gun mounted in the wall, with the trigger end on the side with the mage, and the barrel sticking out the other side of the wall, a techno wizard could cast Fire Bolt using the gun as a channel because the gun is already penetrating the wall--the magic doesn't have to penetrate the wall, only travel through the gun.

Now, IF a GM wanted to allow a vehicle as a single tech object, and let you cast Globe of Daylight out of the headlights, Fire Bolt out of the gun mounted on top (which you'd still need to aim in the right direction, unless the GM is really, really generous), cast Cloud of Smoke out of the exhaust pipes, and so forth?
I might argue that it's not canon, but it doesn't seem like the most munchkin ruling either, depending on the power level of the general game.
As long as everybody involved is cool with it, go for it.

Use any vehicle, including a cardboardbox with wheels (joke necromancy) for a flight, swim or teleportation spell as "appropriate" focus as it is a de ice for transportation?

Would a cardboard box even count as a barrier for purposes of stopping magic? Would i be able to nullify a rune weapon's spellcasting abilities with some festive gift wrap?

Actually that might be useful to know if i convince people to get into a campaign for the holidays, this question is now time-sensitive.

[Zer0 Kay]

I have a question about the Techno-Wizard. Can they use a vehicle as a spell focus? I ask this because one of the videos Legion of Myth had: highlighted a rule where you cannot cast from inside a vehicle. I get the rational for that rule if you were a traditional caster; however, the techo-wizard is special from what I can tell.

There's nothing technically stopping a Techno-Wizard from using a tech vehicle as his delivery system/spell focus, BUT remember that the delivery system has to be appropriate to the spell being cast: for a directed energy blast or such you need a gun, and for a sensory spell like See The invisible you need some kind of tech vision-based sensory device.
And I can't think of any spells offhand that would be appropriate for using a vehicle as a spell focus in this way.

I think the better way to look at it is to look at the vehicle as a collection of tech devices, each of which could be used as a focus for different spells.
If the vehicle has a periscope or some kind of camera built in, that could be used for Detect Invisible.
If there is a gun turret, that could be used to cast offensive spells like Fire Bolt.

But keep in mind that the mage would have to be able to touch the spell focus, or part of it.
If there's a camera on the outside of the vehicle, but the camera is connected to a monitor inside the vehicle, I'd allow the TW to use the Monitor to cast Detect Invisible, using the camera as an effective part of the monitor.
If there's a gun turret where the gun is accessible to be touched by people inside the vehicle, that's fair game.
If the gun has to be manned by somebody on the outside of the vehicle in a separate turret section that the mage is not in, that's not fair game.

Other than that, it's good to understand WHY mages inside vehicles cannot cast spells outside of the vehicle; it's because vehicles are walls, and you can't cast most magic through physical objects.
There's nothing special about vehicles, other than that they are solid objects, and magic can't generally go through solid objects.
You cannot, for example, stand on one side of a brick wall, put your hand up to the wall, and cast Fire Bolt on the other side of the wall.
You similarly cannot stand on one side of a glass wall, put your hand up to the wall, and cast Fire Bolt on the other side of the wall.
All you can do is cast Fire Bolt AT the wall.
Same deal with vehicles.

IF, on the other hand, there was a gun mounted in the wall, with the trigger end on the side with the mage, and the barrel sticking out the other side of the wall, a techno wizard could cast Fire Bolt using the gun as a channel because the gun is already penetrating the wall--the magic doesn't have to penetrate the wall, only travel through the gun.

Now, IF a GM wanted to allow a vehicle as a single tech object, and let you cast Globe of Daylight out of the headlights, Fire Bolt out of the gun mounted on top (which you'd still need to aim in the right direction, unless the GM is really, really generous), cast Cloud of Smoke out of the exhaust pipes, and so forth?
I might argue that it's not canon, but it doesn't seem like the most munchkin ruling either, depending on the power level of the general game.
As long as everybody involved is cool with it, go for it.

Use any vehicle, including a cardboardbox with wheels (joke necromancy) for a flight, swim or teleportation spell as "appropriate" focus as it is a de ice for transportation?

Would a cardboard box even count as a barrier for purposes of stopping magic? Would i be able to nullify a rune weapon's spellcasting abilities with some festive gift wrap?

Actually that might be useful to know if i convince people to get into a campaign for the holidays, this question is now time-sensitive.

I redirect, again, here viewtopic.php?t=24975&hilit=This+is+the ... never+ends

[AceTW]

If a TW wants to cast a attack spell at full power (empty handed it is 1/2 power) he needs a "gun" object to cast it(at full power).

You can not cast magic out of a vehicle onto people outside.

You can cast magic onto the vehicle itself, if it can affect it, or on other people inside with you. Again, with a hand held "gun" or "tool".

To cast, a fireball lets say, out of the vehicle the TW would have to get out(and hold a "gun") and cast normally or, at the GM's discretion, cast it through a man operated turret/pintle mount. Large weapons built into the vehicle operated by the pilot or driver imho are off limits.

It begs the question, if a TW places his hand on a civil war muzzle loading cannon, can he cast a fireball out of it? I say no. Hand held items up to the size of a anti-material rifle or bazooka tube or it needs to be modified with TW gizmos, crystals, wire, and magic.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Nope, it doesn't need to be a 'gun like object'. It just needs to be a 'magic object made out of tech parts.'

Yes, the build will be easier build if the if the apparent function is represented in it's form.

So yes, you can make a superTW cannon out of a washing machine. And since the TW is going to replace most of the guts of any tech item to make any of their magic items the example in the book is a misnomer. Will that W have to add a way to aim said Super TW washing machine cannon...yes ( most likely made into a turret on a vehicle or a fixed defense, or a fire base)

It would be easier to make the same super TW cannon out of a a civil war muzzle loading cannon because it already in a form that fits the function. Will the TW need to add parts and wires or other things/parts/gems/jewels/etc.. to the cannon. Even so that same cannon can be made into a fireball cannon too. (It would be a total waste of the cannon unless it was a secondary function of a the above super TW cannon.)
Magic is like that, so long as the TW/alchemist is willing to spend the resources and time to make a magic item the way they want....they Can Do It. Will it be the most efficient way to make that type of magic item....not likely. But then they might have a reason/want/need for making a "sphere of annihilation lapel squirt flower" magic item, there isn't a Absolute limit that would prevent them from making it. (Because Its Magic!) IF that is the concept for that magic item. (it would also probably would have a create water stream secondary function.)

Yes, there are there practicable limits...yes. They are : Money, time, materials, tools and PPE limits. Another limit is 'smarts' or 'is the TW's build skill score high enough to counter all the design & build penalties.

[Grazzik]

A washing machine weapon? Yup, very doable.

Creativity doesn't rest with the choice of tech parts only, it also applies to the choice of spell used in the device construction. A washing machine could be used for a spell that shoots a gout of water, which would be "logical" to use in order to transform the washing machine into an offensive water cannon - an incredible stream of high pressure water coming out of the washing machine's drum.

A "mechanism like a gun" is appropriate if you want to basically replace bullets with magic. But that lacks flair... -100 XP for lazy roleplaying.

EDIT: However, to simply cast a spell without creating a TW device, RUE pg 128 is very clear - "What the device is, and how it functions, also makes a difference." It goes on to explain why. A washing machine would still "logically" work in this manner for the spells Cleanse or Create Water (though perhaps the water may have a soapy taste?), but be rather unwieldy for offensive purposes unless the TW has SNPS. A watering can would probably do better. While some may say it must be "mechanical", arguably goggles aren't mechanical either, yet they are an explicit example. Perhaps an adjustable watering hose nozzle might be the optimal choice for a water based weapon.

[Killer Cyborg]

Nope, it doesn't need to be a 'gun like object'. It just needs to be a 'magic object made out of tech parts.'

Yes, the build will be easier build if the if the apparent function is represented in it's form.

Hey, Sisyphus, quit pushing your misunderstanding up this hill.

The thread is NOT about making TW devices.
It's about casting spells using ordinary mechanical devices as a focus.

As I pointed out to you last time.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I was commenting on AceTW's post, not about your debunked question if it possible to just have a magic item that lets a TW cast anything at full Str and through a Vehicle's chassie idea. So I'm not the one being Sisyphisic.

And Topics have a way of wandering off their initial topic through comment drift once the initial question has been answered. You got the canon answer to your question. (even if you didn't like being shot down because there is no such thing as magic foci in the PB system.) So the topic will be going through its natural drifting away from the initial topic.

[Killer Cyborg]

I was commenting on AceTW's post, not about your debunked question if it possible to just have a magic item that lets a TW cast anything at full Str and through a Vehicle's chassie idea. So I'm not the one being Sisyphisic.

And Topics have a way of wandering off their initial topic through comment drift once the initial question has been answered. You got the canon answer to your question. (even if you didn't like being shot down because there is no such thing as magic foci in the PB system.) So the topic will be going through its natural drifting away from the initial topic.

Dude, are you okay?
This is a serious question.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Why did I pull out the stops???

"Hey, Sisyphus,... "
Duh?*sarcasum*

This topic was no longer one about "It's about casting spells using ordinary mechanical devices as a focus." once that was shot down as non-canon. As such it is now what the commenters make of it.

Sorry about thinking you were the OP.

[Killer Cyborg]

You thinking I was the OP was part of why I asked.
Also because I quoted the exact rule everyone is talking about, and somehow your take is that the rule has been debunked.

We argue, and usually it’s just stubborn people butting heads, which is fine, but I wanted to check in because sometimes when one of us gets cranky or off our game, we’ve got stuff going on.

You being snappish was warranted by my own snark. No worries there.
There was just enough stuff going on I figured I’d check in.
Glad you’re doing alright.


Anyway, I’ll get back to the argument tomorrow when I have access to a full keyboard.

[Killer Cyborg]

Drew,

I'd appreciate it if you would explain what you believe the following passages from RUE 128 are describing.

Spell Casting.
The Techno-Wizard is NOT the master of spell magic the Ley Line Walker and Shifter are, but is still pretty capable. It is not a lack of understanding in magic that limits the Techno-Wizard's spell casting abilities, but his orientation. That orientation is magic used in conjunction with machines. Consequently, his spell casting abilities are not the same as other spell casters. Instead of spell casting with a mere word and gesture, the Techno-Wizard needs an appropriate mechanical device through which to concentrate his thoughts and focus the spell. For the machine oriented Techno-Wizard, he needs a device as his delivery system.

That device could be a C-18 Laser Pistol or an ordinary revolver, or one of his own, weird devices. He points his pistol at the target, whispers a few words, and his Fire Bolt spell erupts from the pistol. Later he could use that same pistol to fire its normal laser beam (or bullet or whatever) again.
Using a piece of technology as his spell focus does not harm the object in any way, it simply becomes the temporary conduit through which he channels his focus and energy.

Once the spell has ended, the device is as non-magical as it was before casting the spell. Only full Techno-Wizardry conversion permanently adds magical capabilities to a device. See Techno-Wizardry Construction.
Note: The Techno-Wizard cannot fire the pistol (or laser or bullet) AND a magic spell at the same time, it has to be one or the other.

[drewkitty ~..~]

This sort of reminds me of arguments between what the descriptive text says and what people read because they throw out that 'flavor text' from their understanding of the power or class.

There is a difference between what the descriptive text says and what the TW magic item creation rules force the builders to make.

What the TW rules let the TW do is to make Magical Engrams (set magical patters that stay instead of dissipating as spell magic does at the end of the spell)[sort of like making a function/'shortcut' key to do a certain thing] and use those engrams to make magic by empowering them and causing them to emit the spell the engrams makes.
*shrugs* if it doesn't work that way then no one but the TW that made the magic item could use what he/she makes, because the TW only makes ""foci"" that only work for that TW.
-the descriptive text about 'How to use' TW magic items describes a process about magic items that use magic engrams at their core are used.

The build examples make it clear that the original tech item is taken apart and will not have the same functions as it did before being made into a magic item. [I will not use the word conversion because that is not what happens. To convert a laser rifle to run off PPE is not done by take the rifle apart, it is done by modifying the power source of the rifle to convert PPE into electrical energy that works with the laser rifle. Very different than making a fireball magic item rifle out of this laser rifle.]

What a TW focus magic item would look like be is something made up of a PPE battery and it improves the effects that pass through it. But it can't be done with techno wizardry. The engram in the TW magic item, to work within the established TW build rules, has to produce a specific spell effect.

[Killer Cyborg]

This sort of reminds me of arguments between what the descriptive text says and what people read because they throw out that 'flavor text' from their understanding of the power or class.

There is a difference between what the descriptive text says and what the TW magic item creation rules force the builders to make.

I agree; there IS a difference.

The thing is, the passage I quoted is not about TW devices, and has nothing to do with TW devices.
The passage I quoted is labeled "Spell Casting" because it's about TWs casting spells WITHOUT their TW devices.

Here's the parallel section from RMB 89-90:

1. Initial Spell Knowledge.
In addition to his techno-wizardry powers, the character has a solid understanding of spell magic and how to tap into ley lines and nexus points for additional PPE. The Techno-Wizard is NOT the master of spell magic the Ley Line Walker and Shifter are, but is still pretty capable. It is not a lack of understanding in magic that limits the Techno-Wizard's spell casting abilities, but his orientation. That orientation is magic used in conjunction with machines. Consequently, his spell casting abilities are not the same as other spell casters.
Spell Casting Penalties: All spell rangers, durations, MDC/SDC, and damage are HALF when cast as a spell or ritual rather than channeled through a TW device.

Notice that there's a huge chunk that's the same in both RUE and RMB:
"The Techno-Wizard is NOT the master of spell magic the Ley Line Walker and Shifter are, but is still pretty capable. It is not a lack of understanding in magic that limits the Techno-Wizard's spell casting abilities, but his orientation. That orientation is magic used in conjunction with machines. Consequently, his spell casting abilities are not the same as other spell casters."

This is because both passages are describing the same thing, they're telling us what happens when a mage tries to cast a spell without using a TW device.

Note that in RMB we're openly told right off the bat that the section is "in addition to his Techno-Wizardry powers."
That's because this section is NOT about TW devices created through the Techno-Wizards' special ability

A couple paragraphs down from the part I quoted, RUE 128 says:
All techno-wizard spells must be cast in this manner, failure to do so means suffering the spell casting penalties for not having an appropriate focus.
Spell Casting Penalty: All spell ranges, durations, MDC/SDC and damage are reduced by half when cast through traditional words and gestures, rather than refocused through a mechanical device.

Note that in RUE the penalties have changed from being 1/2 effective "when cast as a spell or ritual rather than channeled through a TW device," to "when cast through traditional words and gestures, rather than refocused through a mechanical device."
This is because it's specifying that--as of RUE--the 1/2 effectiveness applies when casting a spell like other mages, as opposed to casting the spell through a mechanical device.
NOT "through a TW device" as the passage stated in RMB, but rather through a mechanical device.

This is why the RUE passage conflicts directly and repeatedly with the way TW devices are used, because it's not at all talking about TW devices.
"Instead of spell casting with a mere word and gesture, the Techno-Wizard needs an appropriate mechanical device" is talking about mechanical devices, NOT TW devices.
If they meant "the Techno-Wizard needs an appropriate TW device," they'd have said so.
What they mean is what they say--any mechanical device that would be appropriate for casting the spell.

That's why they say "the device could be a C-18 laser pistol or an ordinary revolver" instead of "the device could be a TW modified C-18 laser pistol or a TW revolver.

That's why they say "Later he could use the same pistol to fire its normal laser beam (or bullet or whatever)," because they're talking about a normal, non-magical weapon, NOT a TW weapon.

That's why they say "Using a piece of technology as his spell focus does not harm the object in any way, it simply becomes the temporary conduit through which he channels his focus and energy," because they're talking about a Techno-Wizard picking up any random gun and actually using to cast a spell, NOT about making or using TW devices.

That's why they say "Once the spell has ended, the device is as non-magical as it was before casting the spell. Only full Techno-Wizardry conversion permanently adds magical capabilities to a device. See Techno-Wizardry Construction."
They're NOT talking about TW devices; they're talking about non-magical tech being used as a spell focus (their term) in order to cast spells.
They refer us to the rules for Techno-Wizardry construction at this point because this is the ONLY point in which they're referring to TW devices, and it's in the context of showing that TW devices are different than spell focuses, that TW devices are permanent magic items rather than temporary conduits that go back to being normal as soon as the spell is cast.

The entire section is a change from TWs having their non-TW-device spells nerfed in half, to giving them a way to still cast spells at full strength without a TW device, by using any ordinary mechanical device as a spell focus.

[Orin J.]

Wait, are you saying people confused the "needing a mechanical item to properly cast spells" with needing a TW-item for casting spells to avoid the penalty? That's pretty straightforwardly explained in the RUE.

[drewkitty ~..~]

No

3mc

[Killer Cyborg]

Wait, are you saying people confused the "needing a mechanical item to properly cast spells" with needing a TW-item for casting spells to avoid the penalty?

That's my take on the conversation so far, yeah.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The mechanics of the TW magic items is that they are 2nd hand magic. In other words the user is not casting the magic, the Item is doing the casting.

Not casting, using the TW item as a focus to cast magic at full str.

The user might empower/charge the TW magic item, but that is not casting the spell effect that comes out of the item. That is a "static, defined stat block".
This is the disconnect between the (I hate this term) TW 'Flavor Text' and the actual mechanics of how TW items work. (As was tried to be explain in earlier posts.)

[Orin J.]

The mechanics of the TW magic items is that they are 2nd hand magic. In other words the user is not casting the magic, the Item is doing the casting.

Not casting, using the TW item as a focus to cast magic at full str.

The user might empower/charge the TW magic item, but that is not casting the spell effect that comes out of the item. That is a "static, defined stat block".
This is the disconnect between the (I hate this term) TW 'Flavor Text' and the actual mechanics of how TW items work. (As was tried to be explain in earlier posts.)

Techno-Wizards also have to use (not TW) items for their normal spellcasting to get the full effects of it, which was what OP's question in the first place was about. If he's sitting his his enclosed jeep that has a turret, and he wants to cast firebolt at someone not inside the jeep can he cast the spell through the jeep, does he need to be touching the turret or touching the gun in the turret to direct his normal spell or does being in the jeep block him from using his normal spells entirely regardless of the jeep having a turret with a gun in it that could count as a suitable object for focusing the spell.

crucially, there is not any involvement of a techno-wizard weapon in this example.

[Killer Cyborg]

The mechanics of the TW magic items is that they are 2nd hand magic. In other words the user is not casting the magic, the Item is doing the casting.

Not casting, using the TW item as a focus to cast magic at full str.

The user might empower/charge the TW magic item, but that is not casting the spell effect that comes out of the item. That is a "static, defined stat block".

All correct.

This is the disconnect between the (I hate this term) TW 'Flavor Text' and the actual mechanics of how TW items work. (As was tried to be explain in earlier posts.)

Incorrect.
What you are apparently taking to be "TW flavor text" is--as I've pointed out--actually a section of rules for what happens when Techno-Wizards cast magic without using any TW device.

It's not talking about TW devices at all in that section, except at one point when they refer to TW devices as being specifically different than what is being discussed:
Once the spell has ended, the device is as non-magical as it was before casting the spell. Only full Techno-Wizardry conversion permanently adds magical capabilities to a device. See Techno-Wizardry Construction.

"Once the spell has ended, the device is as non-magical as it was before" describes whatever random non-magical mechanical device
the mage is using as a focus.
It's not a magic item.
It doesn't become a magic item just because a techno-wizard casts a spell through it.

It is specifically different from Techno-Wizardry conversion, which makes a permanent magic item.
Techno-Wizardry devices are specifically NOT what's being talked about.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Sure they can cast magic, they just don't at full str.

Quoting someone quoting the book..."...rather than refocused through a mechanical device."
'mechanical device'=TW magic Item
-----------------
As for why TW magic items can't be sensed by sense magic when not charged....duh...there is no PPE/magic charge in them to be sensed.
➢Just reread the PH & PS race texts "sense phychic & magic energy" text and sense magic...it is the stored PPE that is sensed, not the underlying engrams that are imbedded in the object.

Show a TW magic item to a PF alchemist and they will think it is at best: incomplete, or at worst: trash, because they are not self-charging.

[Orin J.]

Sure they can cast magic, they just don't at full str.
If there are such things as 'Magic Foci' for TW to cast magic at full Str. (w/o doing it 2nd'hand through a TW item)....how are they made? where are they detailed/stat'ed out as an piece of equipment, Instead of just being an item in descriptive text?
paraphrase: okay, so they were in the descriptive text, so what. Where are they defined as a piece of equipment?

My point is the above posts is that there isn't any foci defined in/as equipment, there is defining text for TW Magic Items.

Beyond those things, even if there was a thing called a magic focus that allowed a TW to cast magic w/o the typical penalty for a TW to cast magic directly....it still could not penetrate a MDC vehicle's hull.

that's the crux of the argument, would the mechanical device used to channel the TW's spell count as being outside while the TW is inside if it is A:the weapon in the turret of the jeep, B: the turret mounted on the jeep, or C: the jeep with a turret itself or would none of these be valid for casting outside of the jeep because the rules don't explictly provide any exception to the internal compartment rule.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Note, I totally edited the fist part of my last post. You might want to edit your post to the new text.

----
A vehicle with TW weapon turrets...the controls, the turret and the weapon itself are considered one TW Magic item. Which means there are holes in the MDC hull of the vehicle to allow the controls to work. This is still 2nd'hand casting because the magic is coming from the weapon (which was defined when turned into a TW Magic item), not the one controlling the turret. So the one controling the turret cannot change what sort of magic the weapon emits.

[Orin J.]

....You ain't getting it. The techno wizard can cast spells using normal, non-TW devices to focus the spell (assuming they're a device that makes sense for how the spell works) which is what this is about. None of the parts on the jeep, including the turret and whatever gun(s) is mounts, are modified to be technowizard devices. Now if the technowizard wants to cast a spell from inside the aformentioned jeep to shoot at someone outside, can he cast it from the driver's seat, from under the turret holding the turret controls, or would he have to hold the gun in the turret. Or would none of these apply because he's casting from inside the jeep and you can't cast from inside to outside.

[Killer Cyborg]

Sure they can cast magic, they just don't at full str.

Right.
UNLESS they use a non-magical, mechanical device as a focus to cast the the spell through, which is what the rules here are describing.

Quoting someone quoting the book..."...rather than refocused through a mechanical device."
'mechanical device'=TW magic Item

No, "mechanical device" = "mechanical device."
"Techno-wizardry device" = "Techno-wizardry device."

"Techno-wizardry" and "mechanical" are NOT the same thing.
Some techno-wizardry devices are mechanical, but not all mechanical devices are techno-wizardry

That's why RUE 138 says:
That device could be a C-18 laser pistol or an ordinary revolver, or one of his own, weird devices.

Note the options:
a) A C-18 laser pistol, which is not noted to be a TW device of any kind.
b) An ordinary revolver. Because while the word "ordinary" specifically rules out the gun being a TW device, a revolver is still a mechanical device.
c) OR one of his own, weird devices. This part presumably means TW devices, and it's a third option that is specifically separate and distinct from the C-18 or the ordinary revolver.
Neither of those items are TW devices, because TW devices are not necessary to cast a spell through, only some kind of mechnaical device it.

This is why the text says "after the device is fired, it is as non-magical as it was before" and "Later he could use the same pistol to fire its normal laser beam (or bullet or whatever) again."
This kind of thing is impossible with TW devices, because their normal workings have been gutted.
This passage is NOT talking about TW devices.

As for why TW magic items can't be sensed by sense magic when not charged....duh...there is no PPE/magic charge in them to be sensed.
➢Just reread the PH & PS race texts "sense phychic & magic energy" text and sense magic...it is the stored PPE that is sensed, not the underlying engrams that are imbedded in the object.

Nope; that's a strawman.
The passage in question doesn't say "after the device [no longer charged], it is [cannot be sensed by Sense Magic" ]."
The passage is "after the device is fired, it is as non-magical as it was before."

TW devices hold more than one charge as a rule. You can fire them once, and they still have some magical charge left, and can still be detected as magic. But in this case, the key phrase is "after the device is fired," NOT "after the device is depleted of PPE."

But more than that, the bigger key phrase is "is as non-magical as it was before."
Before the spell was cast through the ordinary revolver, it was an ordinary revolver, non-magical.
After the spell is cast through it, it remains a non-magical, ordinary revolver.
TW devices, on the other hand, are magical devices before they are fired, and after they are fired.
They are magical devices--whether or not they can easily be detected as such--before they're charged up, and after they're charged up. They are magical devices, period.

And an ordinary revolver--whether or not it's used as a spell focus by a Techno-Wizard--is NOT a magical device. Period.

[Killer Cyborg]

Sure they can cast magic, they just don't at full str.
If there are such things as 'Magic Foci' for TW to cast magic at full Str. (w/o doing it 2nd'hand through a TW item)....how are they made? where are they detailed/stat'ed out as an piece of equipment, Instead of just being an item in descriptive text?
paraphrase: okay, so they were in the descriptive text, so what. Where are they defined as a piece of equipment?

My point is the above posts is that there isn't any foci defined in/as equipment, there is defining text for TW Magic Items.

Weird that you edited out these questions, unless perhaps the truth is starting to occur to you:
Magic Foci are not made; they're just any ordinary mechanical device.

Kind of like how Stone Mages can pick up an ordinary gemstone and use it to cast spells, Techno-Wizards can pick up an ordinary mechanical device (like the example specifically given in the text, an ordinary revolver) and use it to cast spells.

How are they made? They're just ordinary mechanical devices. They are made in the same way as any other ordinary mechanical rock. Might as well ask how a Ruby is made which a Stone Mage could use to cast Fire Ball.

Where are they detailed? They're just ordinary mechanical devices. They're detailed in the ordinary equipment lists and elsewhere.

Where are they defined as a piece of equipment?
They're just standard equipment, man. Literally any mechanical device.
From the list of the Techno-Wizard OCC's Standard Equipment, the pocket flashlight, large flashlight, binoculars, pocket laser distancer, pocket digital disc recorder/player, swiss army pocket knife, and TW rifle could each presumably work to cast various spells.

Because a spell focus is just--as the book repeatedly says--"a mechanical device," including an "ordinary revolver."

[Zer0 Kay]

Grabs takes seat.
Reminds me of the old days.
Makes me miss those who don't frequent here anymore or can't

[drewkitty ~..~]

Well If KC posts another response saying the same thing with different words it will be a Jewish Poem.

The reason I edited my post was that I changed my mind about what I wanted to say.

To answer the question in the OP....
No, a Vehicle can't be a Focus as per a 'it can be any old tech item held in hand' (not that I agree with the interpretation KC detailed), it is too big and consists of too many parts. No, ever a subsystem of a vehicle can't be a focus, it is not in itself a whole tech item.

[Zer0 Kay]

Well if KS posts anything here it will be new rather than a recap of something he's already posted here... since he hasn't posted here. Now if KC does... I guess. I'm still going to spectate.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Well if KS posts anything here it will be new rather than a recap of something he's already posted here... since he hasn't posted here. Now if KC does... I guess. I'm still going to spectate.

Typoed.

Fixed.

PS....KS never posts anything here even when there is a call for him to. To clear up ...uuhhh... let's call it unclear canon text.