Shifter help please.

[Keith_gearlds]

I have just started playing rifts. The more I study the core rule book and the conversion books, the more questions I have. In the core rule book it states the shifter can gain control over demons, beings, etc through a communication rift and a battle of wills. However, it also says this only works on lesser beings. My question is how do I summon greater beings? Do I need the summon greater familiar spell? And for that matter as a shifter do I need any of the summoning spells?

[guardiandashi]

I always considered it sort of like the trope of the mage that tries to summon a lesser deamonic entity (like an imp or similar) and instead due to a slip of the tongue mispronounces it and summons a greater deamonic entity like a incubus, or a minor (or greater) lord.

I don't think the spell used really matters that much, you essentially need a way to "tune into" what you are attempting to contact.
the problem comes when you are trying to negotiate/dominate with the entity contacted. yes you were trying to contact an imp that is somehow addicted to chocolate so he is pretty easy to get to do what you want, instead you contact the lord of a realm something that has those imps as the surfs/peasants equivalent in his lands, who is going to be the dominated one in the relationship? not it.... most likely you.

there was a short story by Mercedes Lackey that was essentially that happening. a bandit pissed off one of the heroines and she was a mage so she twisted his psyonics to project a seeming of a girl, bad things proceeded to happen to him. he found an unscrupulous (drug addict) of a mage that summoned a being that had a grudge against the heroine mage, the demon lord changed the bandit into a girl and proceeded to have his way with her repeatedly, and then started taking over the area, before long the main chars get involved... and stuff happens.

the whole point is that the mythology indicates that part of the process is to know the "true name" of the creature you are trying to contact and control. but if you "connect" to something too far out of your league you are just at their mercy (which is usually pretty non existent)

[Eagle]

the demon lord changed the bandit into a girl and proceeded to have his way with her repeatedly,

As I understand it, there are entire websites devoted to this kind of thing.

[Shark_Force]

I have just started playing rifts. The more I study the core rule book and the conversion books, the more questions I have. In the core rule book it states the shifter can gain control over demons, beings, etc through a communication rift and a battle of wills. However, it also says this only works on lesser beings. My question is how do I summon greater beings? Do I need the summon greater familiar spell? And for that matter as a shifter do I need any of the summoning spells?

the RUE shifter can just trade in two lesser beings for one greater demon or undead (once they can even summon 2 lesser beings) from their class ability. for other types of greater beings, the shifter could presumably contact them, make them mad enough to come through and attack, defeat them in a regular battle, and spare their life in exchange for their service. i don't recall that being limited in type.

and of course, depending on the creature, you may be able to just straight-up arrange an exchange of goods and/or services. a nightbane might be more than happy to help you out in exchange for some lemurian biomancy gear or other biological equipment (or more regular equipment if they're not from the nightbane setting and thus do not have to pass through the mirrorwall). a guardian (from the same setting) may agree to help you kill off a small group of vampires for next to nothing. a spellcasting supernatural being may be willing to make an exchange for spell knowledge. and some supernatural beings may be interested in more standard forms of wealth, like precious metals and gems. some may also be willing to trade for magical or even technological tools, though in the case of technology it seems that mainly lesser supernatural beings tend to be interested. supernatural beings of animal intelligence may be possible to team through spells like tame beast or influence beast (and non-supernatural but useful beings may be possible to coax through if they're small enough using a trail of figurative breadcrumbs, and then potentially be subject to your spells).

[Axelmania]

Aside from defeating them in battle, can't they also make normal contracts with demons and simply negotiate their servitude and have them bound to the terms so long as the Shifter fulfills their side or bargain? Or maybe that was only Summoners who could do that?

[Keith_gearlds]

It's just that some of the content I've been reading is vague at times and then outright contradicts itself at others.

[drazool]

It's just that some of the content I've been reading is vague at times and then outright contradicts itself at others.

Welcome to Rifts! There are many examples of vague and/or internally contradictory rules in the system. We love it anyway

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

It's just that some of the content I've been reading is vague at times and then outright contradicts itself at others.

If youre using RUE instead of the older RMB, pay careful attention to the character creation rules.

You cant even make a character if you follow them. =)

Welcome to Palladium!

[Axelmania]

You cant even make a character if you follow them

Where did we first encounter this argument?

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

You cant even make a character if you follow them

Where did we first encounter this argument?

About a week after RUE came out.

KC did a breakdown of a it a LOOOOONNNNNGGGGGGGGG time ago.

[Shark_Force]

a big part of the problem is that the order is entirely wrong. for example, attributes is first. but race and skills and OCC can modify that (and in fact race is largely ignored in the core book unless you're taking an OCC (edit: RCC)). but then at the same time your OCC needs to come after attributes, because some of them have attribute requirements. and for that matter, skills will quite likely also modify your SDC as well.

pretty much you're just gonna have to get used to ignoring rules when they don't make sense, and doing your best to use rules that make sense in their place. awesome setting is one of the great parts of palladium. it is substantially less awesome at being consistent or clear with rules, and layout can be sketchy as well sometimes (particularly the order of everything).

oh, and one other thing. if you want to try out this setting, just remember to ignore everything kevin says about how soon a book is coming out, with the following exceptions:

1) "the book is at the printers". this means that the book really is at the printers, and will probably be available within the next couple of weeks, including if a proof is on the way.
2) "the books are in our warehouse/on the way to the distributors". again, this is legitimately true, and you should be able to get your hands on a copy of the book in short order.

pretty much everything (and i mean everything) else just pretend you never heard it. if you must have some sort of timescale, you'll be happier just assuming that anything else kevin says means "probably 3 to 6 months" if work is actively being done on it right now, or "nobody really knows, maybe never" if there is no mention of the book being worked on right at this very moment (by kevin, specifically... a manuscript in the office submitted by someone else means absolutely nothing, even if it is next on the list. that can change at any moment). he does awesome work. but the man has got to have the worst ability to estimate how much work is left to be done in a project that i have ever seen.

[guardiandashi]

if you enforce the attribute requirements then technically attributes should come first or second, but unlike D20 (D&D ) where race essentially just applies modifiers to attributes. In Palladium technically race should be chosen first because it can completely change how you determine your attributes.

to use an example, rolling 3d6 for all stats (plus bonus dice if applicable) is kind of stupid, if you choose a race who's attribute is instead "roll 2d6+6" ok so one of your 3d6 effectively became a fixed 6, roll 2 more D6 and add the total, but if you happened to get a bonus Die on your 3d6 that goes away as well by RAW. etc.

[Keith_gearlds]

I don't really have any issues dealing with the character creation aspect. I mean my group are literally just starting out with the exception of the GM who has played the original version from the 80s. I'm just having issues with the discrepancies and vagueness of the text. What I have come to assume is alot will be done during roleplay. For example, pooling enough ppe to cast high level spells. On the other hand I still am unclear on the shifters need for summoning spells if he can do the same through a communication rift.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I don't really have any issues dealing with the character creation aspect. I mean my group are literally just starting out with the exception of the GM who has played the original version from the 80s. I'm just having issues with the discrepancies and vagueness of the text. What I have come to assume is alot will be done during roleplay. For example, pooling enough ppe to cast high level spells.

A ley line is all you really need. You can store 3x your normal max (or, more precisely, your normal max + double that amount) for minutes = P.E. attribute, so even a low level character can store 4-500 at a Ley Line no problem (you get 10/round for most casters, 20/round for LLW/LLR).

And once you get Energy Sphere and a level or two under your belt, the sky's the limit, really.

On the other hand I still am unclear on the shifters need for summoning spells if he can do the same through a communication rift.

Summoning spells "just work". Summoning them with your class abilities means you might have to negotiate. They both have their place.

[Shark_Force]

using a summoning spell means the creature summoned does not share the same limits on number of controlled creatures, doesn't require you to win a contest of wills, and doesn't require a ley line to have any chance of success in the first place. also, depending on the spell in question you may feel like you're getting more value or getting access to something you might not otherwise be able to summon. for example, there is a spell that summons a magot (which is a greater demon iirc, and has thousands of MDC). or there is a spell that lets you summon an assortment of worms of taut, which i'm not at all certain count as any kind of supernatural being. so, there are a few reasons anyways.

edit: oh, and as far as discrepancies, vagueness, contradictions etc... you're going to find them fairly often, and as a group you'll need to figure out which (if any) of the interpretations available to you is the one you want to use by yourself.

[Eagle]

Summoning spells are generally for a shorter time frame than the communication rift. It's also a more reliable way to do it. If you cast Summon XYZ, then you get XYZ creature for the duration of the spell. You can also do it right now, you don't have to wait until you're on a ley line, or bother with roleplaying out the encounter. Just BAM!, new monster.

Now, the communication rift itself is incredibly powerful, even if it's kind of vaguely written. I've read over that section a dozen times at least, trying to figure out what exactly you can and can't do. It talks about summoning lesser beings, but then it also mentions having greater beings under your control. It gives a limit to how many you can control at any time (1 at 1st lvl, 2 at 3rd, 3 at 5th, etc), but then says you can control more but they run a risk of breaking free. And then it doesn't give rules for how that happens. It seems to me that this whole section is just incredibly GM dependent. If he doesn't mind you having a brute squad of 6 Balrogs hanging around and doing your bidding, then no problem. Other GMs might let you have a single Gurgoyle, and it'll constantly be looking for ways to screw you over.

[Axelmania]

The fun thing about summoning spells over OCC abilities is permanence wards. A "summon and control entities" spell with a permenance ward anchoring it where you cast the ritual = entities serve you forever.

[Mack]

I don't really have any issues dealing with the character creation aspect. I mean my group are literally just starting out with the exception of the GM who has played the original version from the 80s. I'm just having issues with the discrepancies and vagueness of the text. What I have come to assume is alot will be done during roleplay. For example, pooling enough ppe to cast high level spells. On the other hand I still am unclear on the shifters need for summoning spells if he can do the same through a communication rift.

This is an aspect you'll have to get comfortable with. The game's creator doesn't like writing hard and fast rules, categories, and conditions. He prefers to leave things loose and allow maximum flexibility for the GM. Reading the descriptive "fluff" text of an ability/power is often as important as reading the statistics block.

It's not uncommon to run into conflicts. As long as your GM rules consistently, then it's not a problem.

[Keith_gearlds]

I appreciate all the help. Unfortunately, I've been asked to GM our first campaign. Yeah, that's right, hand the reigns to the person who just got on this wagon train a month ago. Anyway, thanks everyone.

[Mack]

A bit late for this topic, but if you've ever been curious about the odds of winning the Shifter's Battle of Wills, I worked up the following reference table.

Code: Select all

Shifter’s   Creature’s 
MA          odds
3           97.5%
4           94.6%
5           89.8%
6           83.9%
7           76.6%
8           68.0%
9           59.2%
10          49.5%
11          40.2%
12          32.5%
13          23.0%
14          16.2%
15          10.5%
16          5.5%
17          2.5%
18          0.8%
19          0.1%
20          0.0%

This is the creature's odds of beating the Shifter's MA three out of five times. Keep in mind that if the creature has a bonus to save vs mind control or an ME bonus, then that changes what line on the table to use.

[Axelmania]

Part of the problem is that with Shifters, there isn't that whole "biding my time to get an accumulated bonus" or "get a bonus if he requests something awful" which Summoners need to deal with.

That said, it is never 0% Mack, a natural 20 always wins for the defender in the case... so there's always some chance of breaking free no matter how high the MA.

Been a while since I dealt with this level of probability math... basically when only a 20 wins, I must calculate the odds of rolling 1-19 3 times (the odds of Shifter winning) so 95% cubed.... 0.857375 so the odds of breaking free couldn't fall below 14% ... seem about right?

Or would that be 0.05% cubed for 3 natural 20s? 0.000125 ... so more like a 0.125 % chance? I know I'm doing this wrong though... blasted Data Management course is lost to me.

Summoner OCC also had better guidelines as to how frequently you could do these contests. There was incentive to hold off (build up bonus) and incentive not to brute force it (fail a certain amount of times, will is permanently broken) but neither incentive is present in the shifter OCC so it's unclear whether they could try this only the 1 time, hourly, daily, weekly, monthly, etc?

[Eagle]

You'd need 3 natural 20s out of 5 tries, so...

Actually it's just the same odds as the guy with the 19 MA, because you need 20s either way.

[Mack]

Or would that be 0.05% cubed for 3 natural 20s? 0.000125 ... so more like a 0.125 % chance? I know I'm doing this wrong though... blasted Data Management course is lost to me.

You're correct in that your math is wrong. Were it 3 out of 3 attempts, then the math would be 5% cubed. But it's 3 out of 5 attempts, so it's more complicated.

While I've solved it in the past, I didn't feel like going through the motions this time. The table I presented above is the result of 180,000 random samples (I ran 10,000 random saves against each MA attribute) which is sufficient to drive the variation down to an insignificant value.

Actually it's just the same odds as the guy with the 19 MA, because you need 20s either way.

Correct.

----------------EDIT-----------------
I found my notes from when I solved this a year ago. This table uses the actual math, instead of the massive random sample.

Code: Select all

Shifter's   Beast's  Shifter's
MA          Odds     Odds
3           97.3%     2.7%
4           94.2%     5.8%
5           89.6%    10.4%
6           83.7%    16.3%
7           76.5%    23.5%
8           68.3%    31.7%
9           59.3%    40.7%
10          50.0%    50.0%
11          40.7%    59.3%
12          31.7%    68.3%
13          23.5%    76.5%
14          16.3%    83.7%
15          10.4%    89.6%
16           5.8%    94.2%
17           2.7%    97.3%
18           0.9%    99.1%
19           0.1%    99.9%

The overall point is the same. This gives the player an idea of what his chances are, especially if he/she uses the various Lore skills to know which potential minions have a bonus against mind control or a ME bonus.

[Axelmania]

I think the table should include MA 2 for elf shifters. Any races with a possible MA 1? Or maybe achievable via some kind of penalty?

Also: I don't suppose you recall the formula you used? I feel like I'll understand how it works when I see it.

[Natasha]

I think the table should include MA 2 for elf shifters. Any races with a possible MA 1? Or maybe achievable via some kind of penalty?

Also: I don't suppose you recall the formula you used? I feel like I'll understand how it works when I see it.

Binomial probability.

a = probability of 3 successes out of 5 trials.
b = probability of 4 successes out of 5 trials.
c = probability of 5 successes out of 5 trials.
Answer: a + b + c

For example, if the probability of a success is 0.5, then
a = (5! / (3! * (5-3)!) )*(0.5^3)*((1-0.5)^(5-3)) = 0.3125
b = (5! / (4! * (5-4)!) )*(0.5^4)*((1-0.5)^(5-4)) = 0.15625
c = (5! / (5! * (5-5)!) )*(0.5^5)*((1-0.5)^(5-5)) = 0.03125
a + b + c = 0.5 = 50%

So for our scenario, the probability of rolling at least a 6 on a 1D20 is 0.75, then
a = (5! / (3! * (5-3)!) )*(0.75^3)*((1-0.75)^(5-3)) = 0.263671875
b = (5! / (4! * (5-4)!) )*(0.75^4)*((1-0.75)^(5-4)) = 0.2373046875
c = (5! / (5! * (5-5)!) )*(0.75^5)*((1-0.75)^(5-5)) = 0.3955078125
a + b + c = 0.896484375 = 89.6%

[Axelmania]

I remember that exclamation mark after numbers being a 'set' function or something like that (edit: FACTORIALS... oy), forget the technical term for it, I better not throw out that book. Gotta refresh on Bernoullis and such.... but that setup is looking familiar, thanks.

[Mack]

When I solved it, I used the [sub]n[/sub]C[sub]r[/sub] format for combinations instead of the factorials that Natasha used (reason being is that it's a function built into Excel.) The underlying math and result is the same.

Instead of:
a = (5! / (3! * (5-3)!) )*(0.5^3)*((1-0.5)^(5-3)) = 0.3125

I used:
a = ([sub]5[/sub]C[sub]3[/sub])*(0.5^3)*((1-0.5)^(5-3)) = 0.3125

[Axelmania]

This could probably be plugged into an excel spreadsheet easily enough, bonuses v mind control could be thought of as MA reductions.

[Natasha]

I don't have excel but in google sheets, it's =COMBIN()
For instance, https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

[Khanibal]

First, NEVER summon anything bigger than your head. (Sorry, Call of Cthulu flashback there)

Secondly, what Shark_Force said about the publishing schedule is completely explained in Dimension Book 9.

[Nightmartree]

You know, here is a use for a shifter no one seems to have hit on yet.

Cosmic Taxi

A supernatural being could have a list of shifters on various worlds that they call up magically when they want to take a trip over (note that most supernatural beings can dimensionally teleport on their own, if they know where they are going anyway, and that's where this gets fun). With all the dimensional benefits a shifter gets its much safer for them to visit new worlds (They can always go home) and they can offer to summon beings to those worlds in return for payment. Pleased your demonic lord? Earned that long awaited century of relaxation? Call up Barry the Shifter and get a quick ride to the easy life on Plane X! Want to see a new dimension? Visit the diamond beaches of an alien world? Just call *Please scan mystic signal* and make your reservations now!