Psi stalkers and superpower

[binsecure]

In the books i have read which isn't all. Superpowered people aren't supernatural just enhanced humans like juicers but with radiation not drugs. And they have normal P.P.E. and ISP. So how can psi stalkers track them?

[13eowulf]

Who says they can track superpowered beings?
Conversely who says they cannot?

I guess I am asking if you are looking for opinions, or printed rules/reasons?

[binsecure]

Who says they can track superpowered beings?
Conversely who says they cannot?

I guess I am asking if you are looking for opinions, or printed rules/reasons?

I'm looking for official rules as much as a consensus.

[binsecure]

I'm looking for and official ruling and printed confirmation or a consensus.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Unless the super has a combination of powers&magic or powers&psi a psi-stalker can't track them via their Psychic Scent.

Note: not all supers are "induced" by "trauma/stress". There are those that come by their powers naturally.
For more detail read the Heroes Unlimited main book.

Brainstorming.....
If there are PS that can tack supers; occurring at the same rate as supers; I would give them something that lets them take and use the powers of their prey, for a time.

[Library Ogre]

And I wouldn't have a problem with psi-stalkers being able to track some supers but not others. For example, to draw from X-men lore, you might say that they can track Nightcrawler (since, though classed a mutant, he's arguably half-demon) or Jean Grey (one empowered by the supernatural Phoenix Force, at least), but not be able to track, say, Wolverine or Dazzler, whose powers are simply a weird bit of nature.

[dragonfett]

And that becomes a very slippery slope as people would have to figure out just what powers can be sensed by a Psi-Stalker

[Proseksword]

And that becomes a very slippery slope as people would have to figure out just what powers can be sensed by a Psi-Stalker

Only if you don't have a GM with a steady hand. Ultimately, it's their call what goes. A good GM should clarify to their Psi-Stalker PC what to expect if superpowers make regular appearances in their campaign, like divine/magic/demonic source only, etc.

[eliakon]

My personal take?
I would say that Psi-Stalkers can't track Supers. If the CS has a problem with supers they better invest in some ABE gear, or find a way to get people with Detect Super Power abilities or the like.

Now what they CAN do is look at your aura. Super powers should show up as an 'aberration' (I believe they are one of the listed ones in fact).. The CS is paranoid enough that I can fully see 'having an Aberrant Aura" as being a legitimate holding charge for someone while they check you out. A loyal citizen would go along willingly in fear that they may have been infected with something dreadful, which the propaganda media will tell them that the medical corps will do its best to cure... but best to catch things early.
If you run though. Well resisting arrest in the CS is probably a capital offense. Officially or not...

[Blue_Lion]

And that becomes a very slippery slope as people would have to figure out just what powers can be sensed by a Psi-Stalker

It is not the powers they are sensing.
(by the book)What they sense is
1 super natural
2 high PPE(threshold is in lonestar)
3 USe of PPE
4 ISP
(cant remember if use of psi is detected)

This means you can do a simple yes no filter to determine if they can sense it.

Is the super super natural in orgin (IE granted powers from a got powers from a SN source or a super natural race.)
Does the super have more than 35 PPE?
IS the super expending PPE?
Does the super have ISP?
(possibly does the super use psy)

Any yes and the
(Night crawler could be an augment.)
So looking at some well known supers,

Thor and Wonder woman are super natural races. Shazam(captain marvel) Thor have magically bestowed powers.-can be detected.
DR. Strange, Dr Fate, Raven and magic are spell casters, so high PPE. Can be detected.
Active PPE use see above.-
Professor X, jean, and Martian man hunter should all have ISP and could be tracked.
Use of Psy-aquaman his power is similar to a non isp psi from after the bomb and is up to the GM if he can be tracked.-Sider man spider sense could be a psy power up to GM.

Can not be tracked-Hulk, Super man, Logan, mystic.

But in the end if any can be detected it up to the GM.

(On a side note I have a NPC I have used Captain Coalition he is a super that has secret identity of a CS grunt. The CS does not know that and see him as inhuman monster that if they catch they will kill, even though his iron Fist of the CS has crushed many a demon.)

[binsecure]

So what everyone is telling me is there is no official rule about this.

[drewkitty ~..~]

So what everyone is telling me is there is no official rule about this.

What people are telling you are...

✦ No, they cannot sense superpowers via the canon text. As in they only sense what the canon text says they sense.
&
✦ To make them able to is to use house rules.

[ShadowLogan]

In the books i have read which isn't all. Superpowered people aren't supernatural just enhanced humans like juicers but with radiation not drugs. And they have normal P.P.E. and ISP. So how can psi stalkers track them?

Super Powered people might be considered supernatural, but it depends on their category (ex. Mega-Hero pg181 HUE2E, or those who get them from magical artifcats that grant super powers, though in the later case they are tracking a rune object.)

They can have high PPE sufficient to be detected, but it is a random roll (HU2E pg20) so baring a high roll most might escape the tracking powers.

[Library Ogre]

So what everyone is telling me is there is no official rule about this.

Broadly, no. Super-powers are never called out as something they can sense. However, there are several varieties of super-powers that they conceivably could track, if the GM decided that it was appropriate.

A fun example is Green Lantern. Now, the original Green Lantern (Alan Scott) had a magical lantern, so he could be tracked. The newer Green Lanterns are arguably technology-based... but one could make a strong argument that they are using psi-tech, which could be traced. Similarly, Golden Age Superman, who relied on a physiology more advanced than humans could not be tracked, but the "tactile telekinesis" of post-Crisis Superman might be able to. Can you detect Aquaman? Probably... he's always had psychic powers. But it falls to a case-by-case basis.

[VooDu]

Shadow Logan I agree. Megas are supernatural so would be tracked and so would the insanely high PPE heroes. Unless they get their powers from magic or psychic means, and then they would have to be using the powers, I say no and nothing says from what I read says that they could. I would even let an amulet/ring/talisman go as long as it is not active...it could pass as a useless trinket unless it states otherwise.

[Killer Cyborg]

So what everyone is telling me is there is no official rule about this.

[Axelmania]

Powers Unlimited has a minor at start which can sense supers and the CS would snatch up, romance and coddle people with this as long as their other abilities were not too offensive. They allow Psi Ghosts with the dangerous major of Intangibility and there are a slew of powers which would be less controversial.

[drewkitty ~..~]

In the books i have read which isn't all. Superpowered people aren't supernatural just enhanced humans like juicers but with radiation not drugs. And they have normal P.P.E. and ISP. So how can psi stalkers track them?

Super Powered people might be considered supernatural, but it depends on their category (ex. Mega-Hero pg181 HUE2E, or those who get them from magical artifcats that grant super powers, though in the later case they are tracking a rune object.)

They can have high PPE sufficient to be detected, but it is a random roll (HU2E pg20) so baring a high roll most might escape the tracking powers.

What I understood what was being talked about was those individuals that have the "super abilities" found on pages 223-296 in the HU2 main book (& those featured in PU1&3). Leaving those with magic (abilities or things) out of it, because by their definition can be sensed by PSs.

Also leaving out Mega Heroes, because the text already says that they are "considered a supernatural being". Thus already fall into the sensing the SN part of the PS's abilities.
---------

Yes, that is the wording...'considered' ...not 'is'/'are'.

Sort of like how the Titan Juicer's PS is equivalant (considered to be) SNPS while not being SNPS, because it lacks the mystic/supernatural essance of a SN being. (ie: a TJ does not do damage to a vamp with it's bare hand attacks, while a Dragon's does.)
Yes, the analogy is not quite right because MHs are on the other side of the 'does it damage vamps' SNPS line. But it is close enough in it's difference of meaning.

[dreicunan]

In the books i have read which isn't all. Superpowered people aren't supernatural just enhanced humans like juicers but with radiation not drugs. And they have normal P.P.E. and ISP. So how can psi stalkers track them?

Super Powered people might be considered supernatural, but it depends on their category (ex. Mega-Hero pg181 HUE2E, or those who get them from magical artifcats that grant super powers, though in the later case they are tracking a rune object.)

They can have high PPE sufficient to be detected, but it is a random roll (HU2E pg20) so baring a high roll most might escape the tracking powers.

What I understood what was being talked about was those individuals that have the "super abilities" found on pages 223-296 in the HU2 main book (& those featured in PU1&3). Leaving those with magic (abilities or things) out of it, because by their definition can be sensed by PSs.

Also leaving out Mega Heroes, because the text already says that they are "considered a supernatural being". Thus already fall into the sensing the SN part of the PS's abilities.
---------

Yes, that is the wording...'considered' ...not 'is'/'are'.

Sort of like how the Titan Juicer's PS is equivalant (considered to be) SNPS while not being SNPS, because it lacks the mystic/supernatural essance of a SN being. (ie: a TJ does not do damage to a vamp with it's bare hand attacks, while a Dragon's does.)
Yes, the analogy is not quite right because MHs are on the other side of the 'does it damage vamps' SNPS line. But it is close enough in it's difference of meaning.

Please cite a canon source for that assertion about Titan Juicers not damaging vampires.

[Axelmania]

More importantly, where does it say anything with supernatural PS.can hurt a vampire?

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

More importantly, where does it say anything with supernatural PS.can hurt a vampire?

WB1 - VKr, page 80.

[Mack]

Sort of like how the Titan Juicer's PS is equivalant (considered to be) SNPS while not being SNPS, because it lacks the mystic/supernatural essance of a SN being. (ie: a TJ does not do damage to a vamp with it's bare hand attacks, while a Dragon's does.)

[Tangent]
JU p34 has two statements regarding Titan Juicer's PS. (Both in the upper left corner.)
-- "The Titan's strength is considered to be supernatural..."
-- "This strength is supernatural, ..."

You appear to be placing significant emphasis on the former's wording. However, the phrase "considered to be" also appears in the write-ups for the Mega-Juicer and Murder-Wraith, along with direct statements that their strength is supernatural.
[/Tangent]

[Killer Cyborg]

More importantly, where does it say anything with supernatural PS.can hurt a vampire?

WB1 - VKr, page 80.

Got a direct quote?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Page 32 3rd paragraph, 3rd sent.
"Their physical strength is the equivalent to a supernatural being,"
The fourth sentence says that they are not true SN beings.
page 33 top left
" The Titan's strength is considered to be supernatural."
My point was the difference that they don't cross the line as to not being able to damage vamps because they lack the mystical quality of true SNPS that allow SN Beings to damage Vamps with their h2h attacks even thou vamps are immune to physical damage.

As in the difference between ""is the same as"" and ""is very much like"".
----------
VKr page 80 1st two paragraphs say that SN & CoM with SNPS do full damage to vamps. (has headach right now so If I missed something later on the page please detail it)

IOW it isn't the over simplification that says anything with SNPS can hurt vamps.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

More importantly, where does it say anything with supernatural PS.can hurt a vampire?

WB1 - VKr, page 80.

Got a direct quote?

True supernatural creatures -demons, Deevils, Alien Intelligences, etc. hurt vampires with their punches, bites and physical attacks. A fellow supernatural being inflicts full damage, with M.D. points becoming Hit Point damage to vampires. Thus a demon that does 3D6 M.D. does 3D6 Hit Point damage to vampires.

Mortal beings with the super ability of Supernatural P.S. also do damage to vampires as per their Supernatural P.S.

Creatures of magic, such as dragons and Faerie Folk, are NOT supernatural beings, though they share many of the same abili-ties and aspects, so that people often confuse the two. The big difference is that creatures of magic are mortal. They may be long-lived but they are mortal and die. Supernatural beings are immortal and perish only when slain by a third party. As a rule, because of their innate magic natures, creatures of magic do half damage to vampires with their bare hands, fists, kicks and bites. However, creatures of magic who have Supernatural Strength do full damage, just like anyone else with Supernatural P.S.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Mortal beings with the super ability of Supernatural P.S. also do damage to vampires as per their Supernatural P.S.

page 293&294 of the HU2 Main book.

[Axelmania]

Sounds like SNPS through any other means is out of luck, including those with the minors of Extraordinary/Superhuman PS which can give a lower SNPS equiv on converting.

I think Lycanthropy might have also done that... RAW they seem out of luck but I would give them a pass considering werebeings' history of being able to hurt'm.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Sort of like how the Titan Juicer's PS is equivalant (considered to be) SNPS while not being SNPS, because it lacks the mystic/supernatural essance of a SN being. (ie: a TJ does not do damage to a vamp with it's bare hand attacks, while a Dragon's does.)

[Tangent]
JU p34 has two statements regarding Titan Juicer's PS. (Both in the upper left corner.)
-- "The Titan's strength is considered to be supernatural..."
-- "This strength is supernatural, ..."

You appear to be placing significant emphasis on the former's wording. However, the phrase "considered to be" also appears in the write-ups for the Mega-Juicer and Murder-Wraith, along with direct statements that their strength is supernatural.
[/Tangent]

Thatd be because “considered to be” is a direct synonym for “is”.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Sounds like SNPS through any other means is out of luck, including those with the minors of Extraordinary/Superhuman PS which can give a lower SNPS equiv on converting.

Uhh.. no. Read the last line:

just like anyone else with Supernatural P.S.

I think Lycanthropy might have also done that... RAW they seem out of luck but I would give them a pass considering werebeings' history of being able to hurt'm.

... All were-creatures have Supernatural PS in their hybrid forms. And they are supernatural creatures (Dark Conversions, page 99)

Theyre fine.

[Killer Cyborg]

More importantly, where does it say anything with supernatural PS.can hurt a vampire?

WB1 - VKr, page 80.

Got a direct quote?

True supernatural creatures -demons, Deevils, Alien Intelligences, etc. hurt vampires with their punches, bites and physical attacks. A fellow supernatural being inflicts full damage, with M.D. points becoming Hit Point damage to vampires. Thus a demon that does 3D6 M.D. does 3D6 Hit Point damage to vampires.

Mortal beings with the super ability of Supernatural P.S. also do damage to vampires as per their Supernatural P.S.

Creatures of magic, such as dragons and Faerie Folk, are NOT supernatural beings, though they share many of the same abili-ties and aspects, so that people often confuse the two. The big difference is that creatures of magic are mortal. They may be long-lived but they are mortal and die. Supernatural beings are immortal and perish only when slain by a third party. As a rule, because of their innate magic natures, creatures of magic do half damage to vampires with their bare hands, fists, kicks and bites. However, creatures of magic who have Supernatural Strength do full damage, just like anyone else with Supernatural P.S.

Nice!

[dreicunan]

So in short, anyone who has supernatural strength does damage to vamps, regardless of whether their supernatural strength is of mundane origin.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

So in short, anyone who has supernatural strength does damage to vamps, regardless of whether their supernatural strength is of mundane origin.

And always have. The non-revised Vampire Kingdoms had a similar section for “Dragons and other Monsters”; keep in mind when VK was published we didnt even have a Sipernatural PS chart or a decent definition of what creatures were and were not supernatural, etc.

[drewkitty ~..~]

So in short, anyone who has supernatural strength does damage to vamps, regardless of whether their supernatural strength is of mundane origin.

What the text says is that the SNPS has to be that of a SN or CoM Being or a mundane with the SNPS superpower can damage vamps.
The Titan juicer falls outside these qualifications. Not being SN, nor CoM, nor having the SNPS superpower.
This is ""The Why"" their str. is only equivalent to SNPS, and not is SNPS.

--------

That'd be because “considered to be” is a direct synonym for “is”.

No, it is not a direct synonym.
What it is saying is that it is close enough that the difference is very slight, but is still different from being the same as. Yes, this is something lax people would overlook but that is what the wording means in an absolute sense.

[dreicunan]

So in short, anyone who has supernatural strength does damage to vamps, regardless of whether their supernatural strength is of mundane origin.

What the text says is that the SNPS has to be that of a SN or CoM Being or a mundane with the SNPS superpower can damage vamps.
The Titan juicer falls outside these qualifications. Not being SN, nor CoM, nor having the SNPS superpower.
This is ""The Why"" their str. is only equivalent to SNPS, and not is SNPS.

And your position has been shown to be categorically and unequivocally wrong by the text from page 80 of WB1. Anyone with supernatural strength inflicts damage to vampires; no exception is made due to someone with it not being a supernatural creature. So either except it, or delete the line about questions here needing canon answers first from your signature, as keeping it there would be rather hypocritical if you refuse to accept the canon answers!

[drewkitty ~..~]

So in short, anyone who has supernatural strength does damage to vamps, regardless of whether their supernatural strength is of mundane origin.

What the text says is that the SNPS has to be that of a SN or CoM Being or a mundane with the SNPS superpower can damage vamps.
The Titan juicer falls outside these qualifications. Not being SN, nor CoM, nor having the SNPS superpower.
This is ""The Why"" their str. is only equivalent to SNPS, and not is SNPS.

And your position has been shown to be categorically and unequivocally wrong by the text from page 80 of WB1. Anyone with supernatural strength inflicts damage to vampires; no exception is made due to someone with it not being a supernatural creature. So either except it, or delete the line about questions here needing canon answers first from your signature, as keeping it there would be rather hypocritical if you refuse to accept the canon answers!

How can that be when all I am saying is what the text is saying?
As the text in VKr says...That SN beings and CoM with SNPS and mundanes with the SNPS super ability/superpower do damage to vamps the same.

The titan juicer text directly says it is not SN and it says that it's PS is only equivalent to SNPS.

Since the TJs are also not CoM and do not have the SNPS superpower, I fail to see how I am wrong by just following what the canon text actually says?

I know I am critically reading the text to see what it actually says.

[dreicunan]

"just like anyone else with Supernatural P.S."

Note the lack of "unless they have it through non-supernatural means" or "unless they are considered to have it." Titan Juicers are considered to have supernatural strength. Anyone with supernatural strength does damage to vamps.

But if that isn't enough for you, go read page 34 of WB10 again (I finally got back to where I have access to my books), and see that under "2. Super Strength" it says, without modification: "This strength is supernatural." Then tell us again if you were actually reading the text critically, or if you stopped reading once you though you had confirmed your position and neglected to read the full entry.

Edit: Giving credit where it is due: Mack had already cited this fact!

[The Beast]

IMO, the only time someone with SNPS wouldn't hurt a vampire by punching them would be if said person's SNPS was stated to be for lifting/carrying purposes only.

[eliakon]

"just like anyone else with Supernatural P.S."

Note the lack of "unless they have it through non-supernatural means" or "unless they are considered to have it." Titan Juicers are considered to have supernatural strength. Anyone with supernatural strength does damage to vamps.

But if that isn't enough for you, go read page 34 of WB10 again (I finally got back to where I have access to my books), and see that under "2. Super Strength" it says, without modification: "This strength is supernatural." Then tell us again if you were actually reading the text critically, or if you stopped reading once you though you has confirmed your position and neglected to read the full entry.

So this actually does show that 'considered to be' and 'are' are synonyms in Palladium speak. After all in the endurance section the PS is 'considered to be supernatural' but then in the strength section we find out that it actually is supernatural. The only way that these two sentences can be resolved therefor is if they both are saying the same thing.

[Mack]

How about Mega Juicers and Murder Wraiths, who have the same language as the Titan Juicer?

[dreicunan]

The Dragon Juicer also has the "is considered to be supernatural" language used. Worth noting that the supernatural strength damage chart is listed with the Titan Juicer as well, with the other variants with supernatural strength referring you back to the Titan Juicer.

[eliakon]

How about Mega Juicers and Murder Wraiths, who have the same language as the Titan Juicer?

They are both supernatural beings and thus have supernatural strength.
Murder wraiths are supernatural 2. Supernatural Attributes. which makes sense, they are now undead, and all undead are supernatural beings ergo..

Mega-Juicer citation is found in the text block on page 36 "In the P.P.E. rich world of Rifts Earth, the Mega-Juicer process creates a minor supernatural creature." (emphasis mine)

And Dragon Juicers are also similar since they are supernatural beings.

Basically if your a supernatural being, then your have supernatural stats. If you are a manufactured supernatural being it doesn't matter if your stat is "considered to be" or "is" its still numerically the same thing on a supernatural being... thus there is quite literally no difference as far as the game is concerned. In game metaphysicians may be able to discern some differences, but to anyone outside the game universe there is no discernable difference.

[Killer Cyborg]

That'd be because “considered to be” is a direct synonym for “is”.

No, it is not a direct synonym.
What it is saying is that it is close enough that the difference is very slight, but is still different from being the same as. Yes, this is something lax people would overlook but that is what the wording means in an absolute sense.

It's not saying that; it's implying it.
And that implication is arguably false since later text (which has been quoted) directly refers to Titan Juicer PS as "Supernatural."

In an absolute sense, "considered to be" means "considered to be."
"Titan Juicer PS is considered to be Supernatural PS" follows a very simple "x is considered to be y" formula.
A cursory examination shows that such a formula does not always follow the "X is Y formula," but it also doe not always conflict with it.
"A tomato is considered to be a vegetable," but it's technically a fruit. In that case, "considered to be" does indicate that it's technically NOT.
"Citizen Kane is considered to be the greatest movie ever made," and that statement may be true or false. The use of "considered to be" in that case indicates a lack of completely demonstrable veracity or falsity.
"Humans are considered to be primates," and we also ARE primates. In this kind of case, the consideration does not negate the reality.

Which is what it all comes down to: consideration is simply what people think. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong, and sometimes nobody knows.
There are sometimes contextual implications of choosing the phrasing "considered to be" instead of "is" or "are," but....
-The nature of the implications vary with circumstance.
-Implication is not the same as declaration. It is not an absolute sense.
-Sometimes there are no particular implications in choosing such wording.

[Blue_Lion]

That'd be because “considered to be” is a direct synonym for “is”.

No, it is not a direct synonym.
What it is saying is that it is close enough that the difference is very slight, but is still different from being the same as. Yes, this is something lax people would overlook but that is what the wording means in an absolute sense.

It's not saying that; it's implying it.
And that implication is arguably false since later text (which has been quoted) directly refers to Titan Juicer PS as "Supernatural."

In an absolute sense, "considered to be" means "considered to be."
"Titan Juicer PS is considered to be Supernatural PS" follows a very simple "x is considered to be y" formula.
A cursory examination shows that such a formula does not always follow the "X is Y formula," but it also doe not always conflict with it.
"A tomato is considered to be a vegetable," but it's technically a fruit. In that case, "considered to be" does indicate that it's technically NOT.
"Citizen Kane is considered to be the greatest movie ever made," and that statement may be true or false. The use of "considered to be" in that case indicates a lack of completely demonstrable veracity or falsity.
"Humans are considered to be primates," and we also ARE primates. In this kind of case, the consideration does not negate the reality.

Which is what it all comes down to: consideration is simply what people think. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong, and sometimes nobody knows.
There are sometimes contextual implications of choosing the phrasing "considered to be" instead of "is" or "are," but....
-The nature of the implications vary with circumstance.
-Implication is not the same as declaration. It is not an absolute sense.
-Sometimes there are no particular implications in choosing such wording.

Personally to me.
Consider to be = for all practical intent/purpose.(basically treat it like this even though it may be something else.)
I think the issue was that the juicer is not a true supernatural being, so the wording to me was intended to highlight that it was not a super natural creature.

[drewkitty ~..~]

DJs, DJs, MJs and MWs are all SN in nature bacause they are mysticlly enhanced so fall into the "Are Supernatural" part of the listing of what can damage vamps.

TJs are mundane (i.e. not SN nor CoM) and don't have the SNPS super ability. What part of ""they do not meet the qualifications listed"" is not being listened to?

Now it is incumbent on the opposition to point out where in the text that says they have the "SNPS super ability" if they still want to cling to that argument. Since none of your above posts points out where it says that....*shrugs*
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""The titan juicer text directly says it is not SN and it says that it's PS is only equivalent to SNPS.""
Notice I use the same word as the text 1st uses to describe the TJ's PS ""equivalent"". Which is the right word to be using in this instance. For while they are Not SN and Not CoM, their str. are equivlently as strong as SN and CoM with the same PS number. Even thought they are a mundanes w/o the SNPS super ability.
Read the text on page 32.

Defining: Mundanes: not SN, not CoM, not enhanced by magic or Psi.

[Killer Cyborg]

""The titan juicer text directly says it is not SN and it says that it's PS is only equivalent to SNPS.""

I'm looking at Juicer Uprising, and you seem to be incorrect.
I do not see any place where the text states that Titan Juicer PS is not supernatural.
I do not see any place where the text states that Titan Juicer PS is only the equivalent to SNPS.

Here's what I do see:
JU 33
Their physical strength is the equivalent to a supernatural being...

Note that here is is not stating that TJPS "is the equivalent to SNPS"; it is stating that their PS "is the equivalent to a supernatural being."
Note that any non-supernatural being that has SNPS has "physical strength [which] is the equivalent to a supernatural being."
All it is saying here is that TJ PS puts them on the same level (strength-wise) as a Supernatural Being.

JU 34
The Titan's strength is considered to be supernatural...

Note that this text does NOT say "is the equivalent to supernatural PS."
Note that "supernatural PS" is considered to be "supernatural PS."
Yes, the phrasing is odd, and in a vacuum it could indicate that their PS is not actually supernatural, but it would only indicate[/i] that, not actually "directly say" it.
Note that Dragon Juicers (JU 47) "becomes a supernatural being" and that we have the odd sentence of "Strength endurance (sic) is also considered to be supernatural."
Some kind of typo occurred there, I believe, but it seems to be saying that the Strength and/or their Endurance of these Supernatural Beings "is [u]considered to be supernatural."
Note that (JU 36) "the Mega-Juicer process creates a minor supernatural creature," and that (JU 38) "The character's strength is considered to be supernatural," the exact same text as with the Titan Juicer.

Then look at JU 34 again: first column, under 2. Super Strength, where the book directly says: "This strength is supernatural, so the Titan inflicts damage as per the following table..."

To recap:
The text does NOT directly state that Titan Juicer PS is NOT supernatural.
The text does directly state that Titan Juicer PS IS supernatural.
Any implication that it is "only considered to be" or "only the equivalent" to supernatural strenght--without actually being supernatural--is negated by two actual supernatural beings (Dragon Juicers and Mega Juicers) in the same book using the same language, when we know for a fact that their strength is quite literally and directly Supernatural in nature.

[dreicunan]

DJs, DJs, MJs and MWs are all SN in nature bacause they are mysticlly enhanced so fall into the "Are Supernatural" part of the listing of what can damage vamps.

TJs are mundane (i.e. not SN nor CoM) and don't have the SNPS super ability. What part of ""they do not meet the qualifications listed"" is not being listened to?

Now it is incumbent on the opposition to point out where in the text that says they have the "SNPS super ability" if they still want to cling to that argument. Since none of your above posts points out where it says that....*shrugs*
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""The titan juicer text directly says it is not SN and it says that it's PS is only equivalent to SNPS.""
Notice I use the same word as the text 1st uses to describe the TJ's PS ""equivalent"". Which is the right word to be using in this instance. For while they are Not SN and Not CoM, their str. are equivlently as strong as SN and CoM with the same PS number. Even thought they are a mundanes w/o the SNPS super ability.
Read the text on page 32.

Defining: Mundanes: not SN, not CoM, not enhanced by magic or Psi.

As I and others have pointed out (Killer Cyborg just did so again), page 34 of WB10 point blank says that Titan Juicers have Supernatural Strength.

Let's address the other wrongheaded part of your argument regarding supposed "mundanes" with Supernatural P.S. Page 80 of Vampire Kingdom Revised has been quoted repeatedly, but let's look at it again: "However, creatures of magic who have Supernatural Strength do full damage, just like anyone else with Supernatural P.S."

Look at the end of that sentence again: "just like anyone else with Supernatural P.S."

You keep fixating on the sentence from earlier on page 80 that says that mundane creatures with the super ability of Supernatural PS inflict damage while ignoring the part that says that anyone else with Supernatural P.S. inflicts damage to vampires. The sentence "Mortal beings with the super ability of Supernatural P.S. also do damage to vampires as per their Supernatural P.S." does not mean that mortal beings with Supernatural PS that is not from a super ability do not inflict damage, because a mortal being with Supernatural P.S. from any source falls into the category of anyone else with Supernatural P.S. and thus said mortal being inflicts damage.

Titan Juicers have Supernatural P.S. (per page 34 of WB10). Therefore, Titan Juicers do indeed meet the qualifications of being anyone else with Supernatural P.S. and do damage to vampires (per page 80 of WB1r). That is the canon answer.

If you want to do otherwise, house rule away, but live up to your signature and identify your house rules as such instead of continuing to misrepresent them as canon.

[drewkitty ~..~]

KC: You did not read what I said. Maybe you should drop your preconceptions and read what I said.

dreicunan: The very 1st description of the TJ's str says it is equivalent to that of SN beings. Yes, I noticed that after that the writers ""got lazy"" and started to say other things. But The Text never says that they:1) become SN beings, or 2) becomes a Creature of Magic, or 3) Have the SNPS super ability. Those are the Three things the Text in VKr specificly says that can harm vamps with their hand attacks.

So the question ends up is Do TJs have PS equivalent to SNPS, or do they have SNPS, or have the SNPS Superpower.

The TJ texts does say three times what their str is. The first time that their str is equivalent to that of SN beings int he decriptive text. The 2nd time that in their super endurance section it is said their str is considered to be SN and then defines that as being able to carry x50 their PS score and lift x100 their PS score. And finally in the super str section that it is SNPS and defines that statement with how much damage they do with the presented table.
Of those three statements the only one that actully presents the critical information is the text in the descriptive text where it says that their strenth is not mystic in nature

As per the VK text qualifications for what damages vamps is that ALL OF THEM ARE MYSTICAL IN NATURE!!

What don't you understand about that the TJ's PS IS NOT MYSTICAL IN NATURE?

So the question is why don't you understand that they Do Not have SNPS just like everyone else.

EDIT: Sorry about going large. Didn't go large till someone else did.

[Killer Cyborg]

KC: You did not read what I said. Maybe you should drop your preconceptions and read what I said.

dreicunan: The very 1st description of the TJ's str says it is equivalent to that of SN beings. Yes, I noticed that after that the writers ""got lazy"" and started to say other things. But The Text never says that they:1) become SN beings, or 2) becomes a Creature of Magic, or 3) Have the SNPS super ability. Those are the Three things the Text in VKr specificly says that can harm vamps with their hand attacks.

So the question ends up is Do TJs have PS equivalent to SNPS, or do they have SNPS, or have the SNPS Superpower.

I have addressed that more than thoroughly.
Let me know which parts of my analysis you disagree with.
Right now, you seem to be repeating things that I (and others) have already addressed

Of those three statements the only one that actully presents the critical information is the text in the descriptive text where it says that their strenth is not mystic in nature

Quote the specific passage you're referring to.

As per the VK text qualifications for what damages vamps is that ALL OF THEM ARE MYSTICAL IN NATURE!!

What don't you understand about that the TJ's PS IS NOT MYSTICAL IN NATURE?

It doesn't matter whether it's mystic in nature.
VK states that everybody with supernatural PS can damage vampires.
It does not state that only people with mystic supernatural PS can damage vampires.

[Killer Cyborg]

P1: Everybody with supernatural PS can damage vampires.
P2: Titan Juicers have supernatural PS.
Conclusion: Titan Juicers can damage vampires.

[drewkitty ~..~]

the 1st time it was mentioned what their str is.....

Page 32 3rd paragraph, 3rd sent.
"Their physical strength is the equivalent to a supernatural being,"
The fourth sentence says that they are not true SN beings.

My fundamental point is that the TJ's str is not SNPS because the text says it isn't, AND that the TJ's are not in themselves SN/CoM/Magic/Psi/superpowered.
Therefor ALL the yelling that it is SNPS as it is normally understood to be is just plain wrong. As such, your conclusions are wrong because it does not meet the three qualifications set in VKr about what hand to hand attacks damages vamps.
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It does say the SN do damage with their hand to hand attacks.
And it says that CoM do damage with their hand to hand attacks.
With both of these it says nothing about it being their SNPS that is the reason for them doing the damage.
With the CoM it Does Say that it is their magical nature that allows them to damage vamps.

Even the mortal with the SNPS super ability it does not say that it is because it is the SNPS that is the reason.

Which leaves it to that the only given that the only one that gives a reason, IS the reason. That the attacks do damage because they are of a mystical nature.

As such all the yelling about SNPS is the reason, is just a bunch of Hot Air.

Therefor, the TJs non-mystical attacks does not hurt vamps. Even if it is treated as if SNPS for all other things.
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Side note: The 'as others with SNPS' is refering to the other two mentioned in that section, The SN & Mortals with the SNPS SA (the only other ones with true SNPS). In that the CoM damage is converted at the same rate as the SNPS of the SN and from the SNPS SA of mortals.