WP: Staff

[Swift-13]

While WPs aren't specific to Rifts, this came up from a topic in R:UE. I was discussing Weapon Proficiencies with a friend of mine about WP: Blunt and WP: Staff. He's the sort who favors staves as a signature weapon for his characters and I mentioned that staff weapons are covered by the aforementioned WPs but, generally, WP: Blunt is much better than WP: Staff (in regards to Strike and Parry bonuses). He brought up an interesting point: couldn't the bonuses stack?

That got me thinking. Why couldn't they stack? After all, the bonuses from WP: Sword stack with the Fencing physical skill (even if the bonuses are comparatively minor). In the long run, a stacked WP: Blunt/Staff combination would be fairly powerful, but it could take quite a while to get a character up that high in level to matter.

Long story, short: should the bonuses of WP: Blunt and WP: Staff stack when wielding a staff weapon?
What do y'all think?

[Bill]

They are not intended to stack and I do not allow it. I would be willing to consider a custom supplementary skill, akin to fencing, that would enhance the use of either skill though. There are a variety of stick fighting arts that emphasize using a blunt weapon or a staff to entangle, hold, or trip an opponent.

[drewkitty ~..~]

No they do not...canonly speaking.
Just like the spear and staff WP's do not stack.

[Library Ogre]

I do not have the stack; instead, you choose if you're fighting with a "staff" or a "big blunt stick." A staff fighter looks like this..., whereas someone using WP blunt looks more like this...

[say652]

Of course they Stack. Kinda explains the deadly effectiveness of staff wielding monks irl.

[glitterboy2098]

I do not have the stack; instead, you choose if you're fighting with a "staff" or a "big blunt stick." A staff fighter looks like this..., whereas someone using WP blunt looks more like this...

agreed. it's two very different styles.

though i'd have used different example, since clearly Daffy Duck lacks WP:staff and is just faking it..

some (somewhat more) apt examples:
WP: Staff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqlx0mLcg78
WP: Blunt https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHH9EYZHoVU

Of course they Stack. Kinda explains the deadly effectiveness of staff wielding monks irl.

no.. as i said, two different styles. the reason staff using monks were so effective was because the staff training came as part of a suite of martial arts, which gave the wielder very good combat skills even when unarmed (the staff was just a force multiplier in that regard), and a lifestyle of dedication and free of excess.. training in the martial arts was part of how asian monks refined their souls and tried to achieve the mental states their faiths espoused. in effect they trained their whole lives to refine their skills to perfection.

note i specify asian monks.. the european variety was much less martial, and even in the earlier days when monks often got into fights (prior to the rules of St. benedict becoming standard), they tended to prefer clubs and maces because such weapons did not require much training, but could kill.

[Glistam]

W.P. Targeting bonuses stack with the W.P. bonuses from Archery and the other W.P.'s where weapons are thrown. With that precedent, I could allow Staff and Blunt to combine their bonuses. I would be open to other skills combining too, like W.P. Chain and W.P. Blunt, W.P. Shield and W.P. Blunt, W.P. Spear or W.P. Forked and W.P. Polearm, and probably W.P. Grappling Hook and W.P. Rope.

The issue I see here is that there's isn't a corresponding W.P. Sharp and W.P. Pointy to compliment W.P. Blunt.

[say652]

I guess similiar weapon profiencies only stack in heroes unlimited.
Archery&targeting and Small throwing, etc. Wow its like the creators went out of the way to put all this stuff your basically helpless against in mdv realms.

[Bill]

That's a little hyperbolic, Say. Rifts characters are hardly helpless. When you only need a 5+ to hit and your opponent's bonus to parry isn't usually any better than your bonus to hit, stacking these bonuses is unnecessary and really only serves to inflate the numbers on both sides of the equation.

[say652]

Its tech powerful. With Rpa being the big guns and damage at range being king.
Magic in general is.....toned down in pally, in Rifts. ...they pretty much set you up to die until level:7 or 8.

[Alrik Vas]

Even though I answered no to the poll, I'd like to say that I changed fencing to just be a Weapon Specialization skill that gives +1 on any maneuver and a flat +6 damage.

[eliakon]

I would say that the Archery/Targeting and Sword/Fencing examples are good reasons why I say it doesn't stack.
The places where they stack the books go out of their way to explicitly say that they do stack.
In this case its an overlap of 'two skills that can both work for the same thing'
Just like I could use W.P. Sword, W.P. Small/Large Sword, or W.P. Specific Sword for a given sword I don't get to stack the bonuses for the three, unless the book says I can.

[Shark_Force]

Its tech powerful. With Rpa being the big guns and damage at range being king.
Magic in general is.....toned down in pally, in Rifts. ...they pretty much set you up to die until level:7 or 8.

magic is plenty powerful. it just isn't great at dealing damage, which is fine, because there are only a handful of other areas where tech is even competitive with magic, let alone superior.

if you can hit me hard enough to damage my armour, and i can retaliate by rendering you completely and utterly unable to fight in a single action, then i am not the one who is being set up to die.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I guess similiar weapon profiencies only stack in heroes unlimited.
Archery&targeting and Small throwing, etc. Wow its like the creators went out of the way to put all this stuff your basically helpless against in mdv realms.

Far as I know the only WP in HU2 that stacks with others is WP Targeting(thrown). And that is with WP Archery and targeting.

In RUE only the WP targeting can be stacked with others. But that is only when it is a thrown strike or with Bows.

Which also shows how the canon rules for each setting are different.

[Kagashi]

Lets see...

RUE page 327: WP Staff. Combat skill with large and small staves.

RUE page 326: WP Blunt. Training with all types of blunt weapons, including maces, hammers, cudgles, steel or lead pipes, staves, and clubs.

So...yes, they stack when using a staff. Pretty black and white.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Lets see...

RUE page 327: WP Staff. Combat skill with large and small staves.

RUE page 326: WP Blunt. Training with all types of blunt weapons, including maces, hammers, cudgels, steel or lead pipes, staves, and clubs.

So...yes, they stack when using a staff. Pretty black and white.

You forgot to show where it specifically says they can be combined, like people did with the targeting WP, instead of just stating a GM-like ruling

[eliakon]

Lets see...

RUE page 327: WP Staff. Combat skill with large and small staves.

RUE page 326: WP Blunt. Training with all types of blunt weapons, including maces, hammers, cudgles, steel or lead pipes, staves, and clubs.

So...yes, they stack when using a staff. Pretty black and white.

I would say that targeting makes it black and white that they DONT
Targeting and Archery both cover the use of the bow....but the authors felt that it needed a specific call out that you could combine them. This suggests that combining bonuses is so outside the normal scope of the rules that it needed a special rule to allow this one combination. Especially enlightening is that it says that these two specific skills work together, not that any two weapon skills that overlap do.

[Swift-13]

That's an unusual comment message you have there, eliakon. Now I'm curious about that.

[Kagashi]

Preposterous. By that logic, you only get +1 attack when boxing only from the Boxing skill.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Preposterous. By that logic, you only get +1 attack when boxing only from the Boxing skill.

No, because it says the char gets "+1 APM", it is not "+1 APM when boxing."
Actually N&S has lots of physical skills that have limitations attached to the bonuses. So examples of both sides of the issue so there is not argument (mostly) about which is which.
(The mostly is in reference to the Rifts/Splicers Fencing skills which it is a matter between 'only SD' or 'both SD&MD'. Note there is an active topic about this if you want to go and discuss it there.)

[Mlp7029]

Since Blunt and Staff both mention staves I would say use the one you like best but not both.

[say652]

I stack. Easiest fastest most efficient way to keep track. I also allow the two hand to hand combats per character. Expert Martial Artist, Etc. And they stack. Only use that in fantasy settings gives a guy with two swords and plate mail a chance to hang in a sword fight with a SAMAS.
My reasoning on stacking.
Rpa elites in Power Armor have ridiculous Bonuses. Since rpa:basic stacks with hand to hand which stacks with rpa:elite of your favorite. Then why not. Other characters are just as improved by allowing a level playing field.

[Mechghost]

I stack. Easiest fastest most efficient way to keep track. I also allow the two hand to hand combats per character. Expert Martial Artist, Etc. And they stack. Only use that in fantasy settings gives a guy with two swords and plate mail a chance to hang in a sword fight with a SAMAS.
My reasoning on stacking.
Rpa elites in Power Armor have ridiculous Bonuses. Since rpa:basic stacks with hand to hand which stacks with rpa:elite of your favorite. Then why not. Other characters are just as improved by allowing a level playing field.

Actually it states in RUE pg 351 that the Elite bonuses supercede the Basic bonuses. So they don't stack. You get the pilot's HTH plus the Basic bonuses unless you're piloting a RPA that you have Elite for - then you get your HTH plus the Elite bonuses

[Alrik Vas]

Yes, I want my knight to stack martial arts with expert, then go to rifts and stack it with rpa basic and elite, get phaeton juiced and have +infinity to auto dodge. While dual wielding soul drinkers.

When do we start?

[say652]

I would allow that.
Yeah a magic sword wielding Melee monster, I would also Recommend a Dai Katana Power Armor for the stealth option.

Today we are fighting a massive Gargoyle nest of around 300 but Intel is often incorrect so upwards of a 1000 may be present.

Lets hear those battle plans folks

[Kagashi]

Preposterous. By that logic, you only get +1 attack when boxing only from the Boxing skill.

No, because it says the char gets "+1 APM", it is not "+1 APM when boxing."
Actually N&S has lots of physical skills that have limitations attached to the bonuses. So examples of both sides of the issue so there is not argument (mostly) about which is which.
(The mostly is in reference to the Rifts/Splicers Fencing skills which it is a matter between 'only SD' or 'both SD&MD'. Note there is an active topic about this if you want to go and discuss it there.)

Exactly. Boxing give +1 attack when you take that skill. It could have been called basket weaving and it gives +1 attack.

Same with with both WP Blunt and WP Staff. They both clearly give you bonuses when using a staff. Its not rocket science. Just look at the skill for what it is.

I fail to see how the blurb in WP Targeting confirming stacking negatively impacts any other WP, rather strengthens it. Unless it says, "only bonuses from one WP can be used at any time" (like how they deal with H2H skills), like the character benefiting from the +1 attack from boxing, he/she can benefit from all skills in his knowledge base.

WP Shield states that Shields are blunt weapons, therefore WP Blunt and WP Shield stack when using a shield as well, since WP Blunt says "all blunt weapons". WP Blunt is a pretty awesome skill.

The problem with N&SS is, it is the last game in Palladium's active line which still operates under "first edition" rules. Everything else is either a newer game (Splicers, Dead Reign) or has had major changes in editions (Rifts, Robotech, Heroes, BTS, AtB) or discontinued (TMNT, Mechanoids). Trying to compare the older mindset of N&SS with the more modern games is not comparing apples to apples, even though N&SS is still an "active" game in the Palladium line up (basically they still have too many copies for sale in the warehouse). Unfortunately it does not match the Megaversal concept anymore and is in desperate need of a revision. If/when it does, things like auto dodge will be streamlined to meet the current standard.

[ShadowLogan]

I take the view that WP: Staff and WP: Blunt are different forms using the same weapon.

I could see allowing a synergy bonus akin to Fencing or Targeting instead of stacking if two or more WP have overlap in coverage.

In RUE only the WP targeting can be stacked with others. But that is only when it is a thrown strike or with Bows.

WP: Paired (technically) does stack, though there aren't any mechanic bonuses just action related

Sharpshooting and Trickshooting skills stack with the WP they are assigned/selected. It might not be in RUE, but it is in Rifts WB14 (among other places).

There are some other "skills" that stack, but aren't identified as a WP (in their name) like Sniper, Weapon Systems, Roping, certain HTH styles (do grant bonuses to certain melee weapons), some class restricted skills (Monks and Samurai for ex).

I stack. Easiest fastest most efficient way to keep track. I also allow the two hand to hand combats per character. Expert Martial Artist, Etc. And they stack. Only use that in fantasy settings gives a guy with two swords and plate mail a chance to hang in a sword fight with a SAMAS.
My reasoning on stacking.
Rpa elites in Power Armor have ridiculous Bonuses. Since rpa:basic stacks with hand to hand which stacks with rpa:elite of your favorite. Then why not. Other characters are just as improved by allowing a level playing field.

This is clearly a house rule you have going here.

Robot Combat: Basic is superseded by Elite. You do not stack them. You are correct that HTH:x and RC:x stack as stated in the rules, but it isn't a string of RC:x's that stack with HTH:x it is only one RC:x.

Hand to Hand styles are also setup in the same way. Under the rules you only have one active Hand to Hand Style. If you have multiple styles you would have to choose which is active. This comes from Ninja's and Superspies IIRC, and there you have only one or two styles that are actually said to stack, otherwise if you have multiple styles you have to chose which one is in play at the start of a melee. You don't factor in HTH: None with any other HTH: Styles by the rules.

Of course they Stack. Kinda explains the deadly effectiveness of staff wielding monks irl.

No they don't stack. Some of the staff wielding monks in the books just get better bonuses (WB8 Japan pg58 for the Shohei, and PF2E pg72 for the Warrior Monk) from their class. Just like someone with HTH: Kendo or HTH: Zanji Shinjinken-Ryo gets Staff and Sword bonuses since their HTH style includes training in those specific weapons.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I take the view that WP: Staff and WP: Blunt are different forms using the same weapon.

I could see allowing a synergy bonus akin to Fencing or Targeting instead of stacking if two or more WP have overlap in coverage.

In RUE only the WP targeting can be stacked with others. But that is only when it is a thrown strike or with Bows.

WP: Paired (technically) does stack, though there aren't any mechanic bonuses just action related

Sharpshooting and Trickshooting skills stack with the WP they are assigned/selected. It might not be in RUE, but it is in Rifts WB14 (among other places).

There are some other "skills" that stack, but aren't identified as a WP (in their name) like Sniper, Weapon Systems, Roping, certain HTH styles (do grant bonuses to certain melee weapons), some class restricted skills (Monks and Samurai for ex).
...snip

Thank you for stating you are talking about your VP.

I left out the mentioning of non-WP skills for the reason that some of them do stack with the H2H (boxing, westling, gym, acro.....) and others are specific situational (Sniping, weapons systems.) and they are Not WP's since we were talking about Stacking WP's.

H2H Bonuses, It is to these the WP bonuses are combined to get the final strike bonus when using a weapon. A part of the way the game it played so was a stipulated part of the discussion.
WP Paired Weapons modifies the H2H, since what it is doing in most cases is moving the h2h level up paired weapons to a lower level. (Yes, I am excluding the N&S/MC setting from this statement.)
Sharpshooting .....due to the limitations..and it slipped my mind since we were talking about melee weapons and not ranged weapons. I didn't mention it. However, the way it does apply to this is that It specificly says it stacks with the WP it is assigned to In both the RCB1 and the New West books.
Template and Race restricted skills are just that and should not be brought up unless those Char Templates and Char Races are being talked about. However, since you did bring them up, the way they do apply here is that they specificly say they are limited to those Char Templates and Char Races. So if talking about a HU2 char having the Sharpshooting skill then everyone knows you are talking about one of the Hardware Power Cat.s because the restrictions on that skill is to that power cat.
Roping "..., the roping character is +1 to strike for every 20 points of skill,..." I fail to see how this roping bonus applies to anything but roping.
Fencing modifies the damage of a sword attack, and since WP sword does not have a damage bonus it can not stack with WP sword because there is nothing to stack onto in the WP.

[ShadowLogan]

@drewkitty
All I am saying is that there are a variety of skills that provide WP modifiers beyond WP Targeting (or some variation on the name). A few are specifically said to be WP, and a good portion are not. What it does show is that the skills will state that they stack with other skills.

H2H Bonuses, It is to these the WP bonuses are combined to get the final strike bonus when using a weapon. A part of the way the game it played so was a stipulated part of the discussion.

Not what I am getting at. 3 of the 15 HTH styles I can think of between RUE and WB8 (not sure about additional named HTH styles to appear in other books as I don't have them at all or feel like looking them up to check the ones I do have) DO provide bonuses to use a weapon (aside from WP: Paired):
-Kendo and the samurai one (WB8) specifically mentioned they provide bonus for Sword and Staff weapons: "+2 to parry with a sword or staff (in addition to W.P. Bonuses)"
-RUE HTH: Assasin (not sure about RMB off hand or other line incarnations) does provide bonus to strike with thrown/guns at different levels (5/15).

So basically these HTH: styles provide targeted bonuses in using specific WP, not just the general HTH bonuses that would apply.

WP Paired Weapons modifies the H2H, since what it is doing in most cases is moving the h2h level up paired weapons to a lower level. (Yes, I am excluding the N&S/MC setting from this statement.)

But since WP Paired can also be used with weapons or free style, it would be accurate to say that it "stacks" with WP: X since both would/could be in play at the same time (ie they stack) on a weapon.

For example, someone with two Swords with WP: Paired AND WP: Sword can do more than some one with just WP: Sword per the rules. (or insert what ever weapon/WP: combo you want)

Sharpshooting .....due to the limitations..and it slipped my mind since we were talking about melee weapons and not ranged weapons. I didn't mention it. However, the way it does apply to this is that It specificly says it stacks with the WP it is assigned to In both the RCB1 and the New West books.

The text in WB14 makes it clear it can be picked up by other classes, but it is expensive (2 skill Slots PLUS the WP), and really only beneficial if you have a high PP. Sharpshooting and Trickshooting are both listed as WP per WB14 (and in other places where it appears post WB14 IIRC).

Roping "..., the roping character is +1 to strike for every 20 points of skill,..." I fail to see how this roping bonus applies to anything but roping.

It would stack with WP: Rope (RUE pg327/306-7 oddly enough it isn't in WB14).

[Tor]

should the bonuses of WP: Blunt and WP: Staff stack when wielding a staff weapon?

As Kagashi pointed out:

Blunt "all types of blunt weapons, including .. staves and clubs"
Staff "large and small staves"

I am not aware of any text in RUE forbidding multiple skills (WP or otherwise) contributing toward the same weapon, so I believe they would stack. However to do so, the player must be forced to say "staves" as the plural, because it is classy.

Come to think of it, which core books forbids multiple HtHs or stacking HtH bonuses again? I don't think PRPG did but I figured the later ones did. I seem to remember seeing a "only one HtH" rule in at least one core book but it's hard to remember which one or page. N&SS obviously doesn't forbid multiple HtHs but only lets you use one at a time, whereas the '1 at a time' rule I don't think applied in PRPG.

They are not intended to stack

Did Kev comment on this intent in private yet forget to include text forbidding it in later books or errata?

they do not...canonly speaking.

Where is this canon?

instead, you choose if you're fighting with a "staff" or a "big blunt stick."

The question arises: why would WP staff ever be preferred (or even selected at all) when blunt provides superior bonuses?

Stacking is the only logical explanation for why WP staff exists, it must add on top of blunt. It makes no sense to select WP staff except as an add-on to blunt since on its own, it is inferior.

I would be open to other skills combining too, like W.P. Chain and W.P. Blunt, W.P. Shield and W.P. Blunt

I like this idea. Would help make these neglected weapons shine. Shields are blunt rather than stabbing/cutting weapons after all, makes sense to me. Same would apply to basic chains unless it was something like a blade on the end of a chain.

W.P. Spear or W.P. Forked and W.P. Polearm

I think this is already the case with Tridents, which also have their own WP skill. You can actually stack 4 WP skills (possibly 5 if you include targetting) using this. Ariel's dad King Triton is an uber badass.

probably W.P. Grappling Hook and W.P. Rope.

The one thing I'm unsure of, would question this. If you had loose rope at the opposite end of your hook then I think you could use WP rope with it, but I think the weighted end would have way different mechanics and stuff. Way different throwing a light lasso and a heavy hook.

The places where they stack the books go out of their way to explicitly say that they do stack.

I don't agree, in a lot of cases if some OCC gets a generic strike/parry bonus we are not reminded to stack them with WP skills.

In the case like Targeting and Spear/Archery, I believe it goes out of its way to talk about stacking only because you get reduced bonuses from doing so rather than complete synergy.

You forgot to show where it specifically says they can be combined

Not necessary, bonuses automatically stack unless otherwise indicated. Like how Crazies and Juicers can no longer add non-PP/auto dodge bonuses in RUE.

Targeting and Archery both cover the use of the bow....but the authors felt that it needed a specific call out that you could combine them.

Taking the time to emphasize something does not mean it doesn't work where it isn't emphasized. In Rifts many weapons go "Mega-Damage: 1D6 MD" or whatever. It doesn't mean both the prefix or suffix are necessary. "Mega-Damage: 1D6" or "1D6 MD" both work too. Sometimes the books add unnecessary details as reminders or to fill space.

Since Blunt and Staff both mention staves I would say use the one you like best but not both.

WP Blunt gives better bonuses and applies to a wider range of purpose.

If they do not stack then there is no tactical reason at all to select WP Staff. Unless it represents inferior training in a narrow range of things done intentionally to handicap troops and make them less proficient and less versatile.

it states in RUE pg 351 that the Elite bonuses supercede the Basic bonuses. So they don't stack.

Establishing that the book will go out of its way to tell us when things do not stack.

WP Shield states that Shields are blunt weapons, therefore WP Blunt and WP Shield stack when using a shield as well, since WP Blunt says "all blunt weapons". WP Blunt is a pretty awesome skill.

You're right! I never paid much attention to that "1d4 as a blunt weapon" bit. Finally, a reason to use a shield.

No they don't stack.

Source? Sure, monks get additional bonuses, but that's just on top of how awesome staffs are for non-monks (like Matrim Cauthon in Wheel of Time)

It would stack with WP: Rope (RUE pg327/306-7 oddly enough it isn't in WB14).

That is weird, guess in WB14 they figured the strike bonus from Roping was enough? I'd retroactively give this as an OCC skill to the Cowboy OCC, either for free or replacing either the energy pistol or revolver. I'd wager replacing the MD rather than the SDC.

I find it weird that EVERY cowboy in the New West would be proficient with Energy Pistols considering how expensive they are. Also weird that they all start with one. You'd think there'd be some poorer cowboys out there who rely on SDC weaponry and a more experienced/richer cowboy mentor who might own or know how to use MD weapons.

[drewkitty ~..~]

What IS The Topic IS "Do WP's Stack with each other?" not talking about skills other then WPs. Bringing up skills other then WP's is just you trying to confuse what IS The Topic.
To be more Specific the Topic is about whether or not WP Blunt and WP Staff stack with each other.
Stacking being 'providing bonuses to the same combat die roll.'

h2h bonuses are h2h bonuses even if they are for a specific weapon or attack type. So there is nothing that conflicts with my statement that the h2h bonuses are combined with a WP bonus for an attack roll. This is nothing but a side issue that has nothing to do with The Topic

While WP Paired Weapons is called a WP it modifies the h2h not any Weapon WP. As I said.
Pointing out the obvious, paired weapons provided no bonuses to any combat roll, so it cannot stack with any WP bonuses.
This is nothing but a side issue that has nothing to do with The Topic


Note:I did point out that the only thing bringing up the Sharpshooting WP does is to support that there needs to be specific text that make WP stack. Saying anything else about it is but a side issue that has nothing to do with The Topic

And when you use WP Rope you are Roping...Yes, it is not in the New West book, though I have noted that there are many things with RUE they have catered the text towards non-magic chars and for munchkin players. This is nothing but a side issue that has nothing to do with The Topic
-----------------------
The rules do not specifically say that they stack Tor....so they do not. Saying they do stack is a GM ruling, and said rulings are house rules not canon.

What the text does say is that a char with a staff can use ether WP staff or WP Blunt when wielding the weapon.

[say652]

I remember.
Wp:Trident. Post.

It should gain wp:blunt, wp:staff and wl:spear bonuses.
Butwas outvoted. Viable but voted diwn.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I remember.
Wp:Trident. Post.

It should gain wp:blunt, wp:staff and wl:spear bonuses.
Butwas outvoted. Viable but voted diwn.

maybe as a house rule....

[Tor]

The rules do not specifically say that they stack Tor....so they do not.

All appropriate bonuses stack unless we are told otherwise, we do not need to be explicitly informed of the acceptability of every single combination of things.

We aren't told that the dodge bonus from being a level 1 Temporal Warrior and the dodge bonus from 6th Sense stack, for example.

Yes I know these are not WP skills, but why would WP operate differently?

The burden's on detractors to provide text saying you can only use 1 WP skill at a time, much like somewhere I'm sure it says you can only use 1 HtH at a time.

What the text does say is that a char with a staff can use ether WP staff or WP Blunt

Where is this "either" you speak of, in the text?

[eliakon]

Easy. Your using the skill W.P. blunt or your using the skill W.P. Staff.

Its just as easy to make the same argument.
*Shrugs* My feeling is that you can only use one W.P. at a time simply because otherwise it is possible to create an infinite number of stacking W.P.s for specialization. This seems to run counter to the implemented system where specialists in a specific weapon or style get bonuses and not simply a new W.P. to stack on. This also seems to be born out by the fact that the W.P.s we have that do stack all say they do, making the apparent pattern that stacking is unusual enough that it is worth pointing out when it can be done. If this was the normal state of affairs then there would be no need to mention that they do stack.

Ultimately it will be up to a GM to decide if they want to allow stacking, and if so how far down that rabbit hole they are wiling to go.

[Tor]

In the case of Targetting with Spear/Archery, rather than "these are special and stack better" I could view it as "these are special and stack worse" using lower bonuses instead of a blanket combine.

OR... what if the synergy bonus is on top of stacking both?

[drewkitty ~..~]

In the case of Targeting with Spear/Archery, rather than "these are special and stack better" I could view it as "these are special and stack worse" using lower bonuses instead of a blanket combine.

OR... what if the synergy bonus is on top of stacking both?

The WP Targeting is appropriately stacked with the Spear WP when the spear is thrown, and with shooting Bows because it actually says they do stack.

Inappropriate stacking WP's; like combining WP Blunt and WP Staff even though they have no text that says they stack; are only in GM-like "rulings" in which people are fond of expanding on canon.

So answering the fundamental question "does the test say they stack?" Is correctly answered with a resounding 'No!'.

[His Dudeness]

I would allow that.
Yeah a magic sword wielding Melee monster, I would also Recommend a Dai Katana Power Armor for the stealth option.

Today we are fighting a massive Gargoyle nest of around 300 but Intel is often incorrect so upwards of a 1000 may be present.

Lets hear those battle plans folks

By Dai Katana (which don't and have never existed), are you referring to Nodachi (essentially a RL longsword or great sword)?

[Tor]

answering the fundamental question "does the test say they stack?"

Pretty sure OP asked if they SHOULD stack, not if the text explicitly told us to.

In which case: yes they should, because WPblunt applies to staves just as WPstaff does. Plus blunt/shield combo as a new discovery to boot.

Players are supposed to know to combine everything applicable without being told that every little bit fits together.

[Alrik Vas]

I don't think it's intended that they stack, honestly. Should they? Meh, overall I'm not a fan, I'd rather just eliminate the staff skill as is and go with blunt.

Of course, I also renamed Fencing to Melee Specialization and allow it to apply to any melee weapon, so that way if you want extra bonuses and damage you can do it that way.

[ShadowLogan]

In the case of Targeting with Spear/Archery, rather than "these are special and stack better" I could view it as "these are special and stack worse" using lower bonuses instead of a blanket combine.

OR... what if the synergy bonus is on top of stacking both?

The WP Targeting is appropriately stacked with the Spear WP when the spear is thrown, and with shooting Bows because it actually says they do stack.

Inappropriate stacking WP's; like combining WP Blunt and WP Staff even though they have no text that says they stack; are only in GM-like "rulings" in which people are fond of expanding on canon.

So answering the fundamental question "does the test say they stack?" Is correctly answered with a resounding 'No!'.

+1
Bonuses are cumulative, but they also only go with things in the same category by default unless told otherwise. WP Blunt (for ex) does not add to other WPs unless told to do so. While some WP might overlap in which one can apply, that doesn't mean they stack by default since in the case of Blunt/Staff, if you are using Blunt to wield a staff you are doing it more like a mace/club (which you can do) where someone with Staff would be wielding it differently.

[drewkitty ~..~]

answering the fundamental question "does the test say they stack?"

Pretty sure OP asked if they SHOULD stack, not if the text explicitly told us to.

In which case: yes they should, because WP blunt applies to staves just as WP staff does. Plus blunt/shield combo as a new discovery to boot.

Players are supposed to know to combine everything applicable without being told that every little bit fits together.

As per canon..no. GMs can do anything in their house rules. That does not change that house rules are just house rules, and are not canon.

As Shadow pointed out the two WPs cover two styles of usage. Then there is also that weapons mentioned in WP Blunt are one handed, while WP staff seams to be meant for two handed weapons because of the wording. And in my opinion that is the dividing point between the two.

[Tor]

"including maces, hammers, cudgels, steel or lead pipes, staves, and clubs"

"large and small staves" .. "short staff, long staff, bo staff .. quarter staff"

The chart that shows 1 or 2 hands, not sure if that's still in RUE but it's easily found in RMB/HU/Nightbane/etc.

Short staffs are 1-handed. Hercules clubs are 2-handed.

I do agree that changing Blunt/Staff to 1H blunt / 2H blunt would be a house rule that could balance out the issue of stacking (although they would still stack with WP shield) but that's not the case of what's there.

WP skills do not represent a singular 'style of use'. The way swords are used vary widely depending on if they are stabbing/slashing/both yet all fall under WP sword. Blunt also covers a variety of tactics. Just like Staff's applying to short and long are different.

[boxee]

I think they should stack. The bonuses are not that great and if you want the style of using a staff you should be rewarded.

[Swift-13]

Mwahaha! This has been a pretty awesome debate! Thanks for the useful feedback, y'all!

[NMI]

I would allow it, IF it fit the characters theme or concept.

I would also most likely, require the character to have at least Hand to Hand: Expert, if not Martial Arts. If they took an actual Martial Form from either Rifts: Japan or Ninjas and Superspies, I would require the form to have the WP's as Katas.

[eliakon]

I would allow it, IF it fit the characters theme or concept.

I would also most likely, require the character to have at least Hand to Hand: Expert, if not Martial Arts. If they took an actual Martial Form from either Rifts: Japan or Ninjas and Superspies, I would require the form to have the WP's as Katas.

I can agree with this.
Rule of Cool would trump Rule as Written and a kung-fu staff master is cool..... however simply stacking skills for ye old twinkery is Not Cool.
So yah...if it fits, the game I would have no problem bending the rules to allow this. But I wont be giving it to every one who wants to get better strike/parry in melee.....

[NMI]

I would allow it, IF it fit the characters theme or concept.

I would also most likely, require the character to have at least Hand to Hand: Expert, if not Martial Arts. If they took an actual Martial Form from either Rifts: Japan or Ninjas and Superspies, I would require the form to have the WP's as Katas.

I can agree with this.
Rule of Cool would trump Rule as Written and a kung-fu staff master is cool..... however simply stacking skills for ye old twinkery is Not Cool.
So yah...if it fits, the game I would have no problem bending the rules to allow this. But I wont be giving it to every one who wants to get better strike/parry in melee.....

Not to mention there is already precedent for allowing this to happen:
W.P. Targeting & Spear, Archery, Knife, etc....

[drewkitty ~..~]

Not to mention there is already precedent for allowing this to happen:
W.P. Targeting & Spear, Archery, Knife, etc....

As mentioned earlier, multiple times NMI-chan, WP targeting has specific text in it that says it will stack with thrown and bow attacks.
So the precedent you are talking about is that they need specific text for the WPs to stack.

As for the GM allowing for cinematic rule bending......if it is cool yah neat house rule.

[Kagashi]

Not to mention there is already precedent for allowing this to happen:
W.P. Targeting & Spear, Archery, Knife, etc....

As mentioned earlier, multiple times NMI-chan, WP targeting has specific text in it that says it will stack with thrown and bow attacks.
So the precedent you are talking about is that they need specific text for the WPs to stack.

As for the GM allowing for cinematic rule bending......if it is cool yah neat house rule.

Your interpretation of a "rule" only. There is no other text saying WPs do NOT stack. You are assuming they don't, not proving it. Its pretty obvious they do stack seeing both blunt and staff says +X to strike/parry/throw with staves.

A character with WP Staff and WP Blunt picks up a staff.

He uses it in combat.

Look at WP Blunt. Is he using a staff? Yes. He gets +1.
Look at WP Staff. Is he using a staff? Yes. He gets +1.

+1 +1 = +2.

Very simple. Not cosmic.