RUE TechnoWizardry Rules: A case study

[flatline]

I've never felt comfortable with the arbitrary nature of creating TW devices. Before RUE, it was totally arbitrary. With RUE, PPE costs are now derived (rather than made up), but the spell chains still seem pretty arbitrary to me.

We are fortunate that RUE presented us with several examples of devices made with the RUE rules so we have the opportunity to study them a little. Even better, four of these devices are similar in function, so the differences in spell chains can be compared. I am, of course, talking about the four TK weapons presented: TK-Revolver, TK-Submachine-Gun, TK-Machine-Gun, and TK-Sniper Rifle.

The TK-Revolver is the simplest, so we'll start there.
Spell Chain: Telekinesis, Energy Bolt
Device Level: 3 This seems unnecessary since neither Telekinesis nor Energy Bolt get better as level increases, so a Device Level of 1 should, in theory, be identical yet it would take less PPE to build and activate. I can only assume the Device Level is 3 because both TK and EB are level 3. Perhaps in a previous revision of the rules that never made it to publication, the Device Level was required to match either the level of the primary spell or of the highest level spell in the spell chain.
Damage: 2d6 MD This is curious since neither Telekinesis nor Energy Bolt can do MD. I have no idea how the damage is derived.
Range: 150 feet. This range came from Energy Bolt

So this was kind of a failure.

The more obvious way to create a TW Revolver that does kinetic damage would have been to use the 2nd level spell Throwing Stones. Then the amount of damage would not be a mystery, the range would be improved (200' + 100' per device level), and you would get multiple shots per activation (duration of 30 seconds per device level). It would be cheaper to create since only one spell would be required. If you wanted to up the Device Level, you would benefit both by range and by damage. And, GM permitting, you'd get a bonus to strike from the spell (personally, I wouldn't allow it...by giving the spell the form of a gun, actually having to aim the regular way is part of the trade off in my opinion). At Device Level 1, the construction cost would be 5PPE and each PPE would give you 4 activations (both ignoring any benefit from using larger stones than necessary). Since each activation lasts 30 seconds (as opposed to one action, like the RUE TK Revolver), this is a WAY better deal.

Well, let's move on.

The next weapon to look at is the TK-Submachine-Gun.
Spell Chain: Telekinesis, Energy Bolt, Barrage
Device Level: 5 No idea why they chose 5. Barrage is level 6 and TK and EB are level 3, so my speculation about previous revisions dictating minimum device levels don't match the facts here.
Damage: 1d4MD, more in bursts This is still interesting. Barrage is the only spell in the spell chain that does MD, but it doesn't do 1d4. It does 6 + 2 per level (assuming parts of it aren't parried or dodged), so the damage, again, seems arbitrary. Presumably, Barrage was included in the spell chain to allow bursting since the Revolver wasn't capable of bursting (and we'll see Barrage again in the tk-machinegun spell chain which is also capable of bursting).
Range: 200 feet I can't explain this. At device level 5, Barrage should have a range of 250', EB is 150', and TK is 60'.

I don't understand why Energy Bolt was included in the spell chain. I can't find anything that it contributes unless it's the explanation for focusing TK into bolts of force. Of course, Barrage already includes bolts of force, so it still seems unnecessary.

And again, this feels like a very sub-optimal design. Replace TK with Throwing Stones and Barrage with Ballistic Fire (or keep Barrage and add Ballistic Fire to allow bursting volleys of magically hard and fast stones). This would give much improved range, way more damage per attack, and, perhaps, the ability to have multiple targets (again as GM, I probably wouldn't allow it, but it is a reasonable property based on the spell chain).

Okay, moving on to the TK-Machine-Gun
Spell Chain: Telekinesis, Barrage, Energy Bolt, Power Bolt
Device Level: 5 Still strange choice. No idea why.
Damage: 2d4 single shot, more for burst No idea why the increased damage of Power Bolt isn't used unless Power Bolt is the explanation why the MG does twice the damage of the SMG. Still seems very strange. Perhaps the damage is based on Power Bolt but then reduced as part of converting the damage from "magic energy" to bolts of force. I'll buy that. Still seems arbitrary.
Range: 2000' I think this is the reason that Power Bolt was included. Maybe each secondary spell can only add a single property? At device level 5, Power Bolt should have a range of 2100', but that's close enough.

Again, I have no idea what Energy Bolt contributes. At least they were consistent so far that weapons with Barrage can fire bursts.

Finally, TK-Sniper Rifle
Spell Chain: Telekinesis, Detect Concealment, Energy Bolt, Power Bolt
Device Level: 5 No idea why. All it does is increase the costs...
Damage: 4d6MD, single shot only
Range: 2000'

Both range and damage seem come from Power Bolt this time (although it's still not clear how the damage was determined). No idea why Energy Bolt is included yet again (although in the absence of Barrage, it might explain focusing TK into bolts of force). Detect Concealment is a neat addition to explain the strike bonus.

I'm sorry if I'm just not getting it, but even with these considerably more detailed rules, TW device design still seems pretty arbitrary. If someone can show me where I went off the rails, I'd sure appreciate it.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

I've never felt comfortable with the arbitrary nature of creating TW devices. Before RUE, it was totally arbitrary. With RUE, PPE costs are now derived (rather than made up), but the spell chains still seem pretty arbitrary to me.

That's probably because they are arbitrary.

[Icefalcon]

I don't think I have ever been able to wrap my head around the TW creation rules. It seems to me as if the whole process is left up to the GM to approve or disapprove a player's designs.

[Shark_Force]

just because they came up with rules for making TW devices, doesn't mean they *followed* those rules.

[Eashamahel]

As soon as I saw that they had created a 'system' of rules for Techno Wizards to make gear in the UE rulebook, I expected it to be, if not terrible, at least deeply flawed, and I think most people see it and agree. The problem is that Techno Wizardry was not created with a set system in mind, so anything that comes afterwards and is added on is going to be flawed.

Techno Wizardry was supposed to be an open ended creation system, where characters and GMs worked together to make things, however, due to the fact that so many gaming groups seem to pit the players AGAINST the GM, players often felt like GMs got the 'final say' on what they were allowed to do, and wouldn't allow their attempts at creation. Players then wanted a system they could use and refer to so that the GM couldn't stop them, and GMs wanted a system where players were limited that they could point to as a reason for why X was not allowed/wouldn't work.

It really only works when the GM and player work TOGETHER to make things, and then fun is had by all as they work out what the player would need to make what they want. Maybe the characters idea is just not fully thought out yet and he can't start on it. One of my current games has a Techno-Wizard who wants to make TW equipment useable to non-magical people, and he is trying to figure out how to do so. As a player he knows he is going to need Talisman to make PPE clips, but his character is still traveling around and researching, learning what he can. Eventually he will be able to do it, when he gets the spells. Alternatively, a TW device might require a variation of a spell (only Call Lightning of 8th level or higher will work to make this) to work, or some specific item (a diamond of unusually large karat, or some unique shape, or a claw of a dragon, or copper wire from a specific place), at least for the proto-type. When our techno-wizard tries to make something new, often times we figure it out, but I will have some hidden bit of info, so his gun works, but doesn't do the damage he was hoping, or he just can't get his robot to function right, or his flying machine isn't fast enough, it works to a fashion, but not quite there yet, and so the system continues. (Note that the above are for things he has never made before or are unique, pre-set items are well known and easy for him to understand).

This seems very 'descriptive' and 'role-playey' as opposed to structured and rules based, but again, I just don't think Techno-Wizardry will ever work in a structured way by its nature.

[Shark_Force]

most any sort of system can be manipulated to get ridiculous results. that doesn't make it a bad system for getting things into the right ballpark. yes, both player and GM still have to work together to get the final result figured out, even with the system in RUE. but, at least it provides a starting point.

but yeah, you do have to be careful with the system. it lets you come up with lots of reasonable things, but it also lets you come up with lots of unreasonable things. that's why the system still says the player and GM still need to work together, even though they have a system.

[ShadowLogan]

The more obvious way to create a TW Revolver that does kinetic damage would have been to use the 2nd level spell Throwing Stones.

Because Throwing Stones has a requirement of a physical object to manipulate when it's fired and really wouldn't be a bolt of "TK Force", it would be a simple bullet.

I don't understand why Energy Bolt was included in the spell chain.

Holdover from the pre-RUE way of doing things where Energy Bolt was a common requirement (it is in the required list for TK-machinegun in RMB).

[Killer Cyborg]

The more obvious way to create a TW Revolver that does kinetic damage would have been to use the 2nd level spell Throwing Stones.

Because Throwing Stones has a requirement of a physical object to manipulate when it's fired and really wouldn't be a bolt of "TK Force", it would be a simple bullet.

He said "TW Revolver," not "TK Revolver."

[Killer Cyborg]

Techno Wizardry was supposed to be an open ended creation system, where characters and GMs worked together to make things

No.
Techno-Wizardry was supposed to be something that allowed PCs to convert tech devices to run off of PPE, or to create devices that the PC could use to cast by-the-book spells.
The whole "Hey, my character can invent brand new stuff that uses spells to create wild new effects that are only very loosely related to the working of the spell" thing was never in the original Rifts book.
The TW creation rules were originally very simple.
You could take a laser gun and have it run off of PPE.
Or you could make a gun that cast Fire Bolt, exactly as the spell normally works.
That's it.
They didn't need to do anything for balance, because it already was balanced: you couldn't do anything with Techno-Wizardry devices that you built that another mage couldn't do just by casting a spell (or shooting a standard laser).
It wasn't until RUE that there were any rules for techno-wizards inventing their own, original devices that utilized spells in non-standard ways.

[flatline]

The more obvious way to create a TW Revolver that does kinetic damage would have been to use the 2nd level spell Throwing Stones.

Because Throwing Stones has a requirement of a physical object to manipulate when it's fired and really wouldn't be a bolt of "TK Force", it would be a simple bullet.

I have a tendency to equate two things if the result is the same even if the means are different. This is probably due to my engineering training where you don't generally care how a black box functions on the inside as long as the proper output is returned for a given input.

A TK weapon takes PPE as an input and does kinetic damage at range.

A TW weapon based on Throwing Stones also takes PPE as an input and does kinetic damage at range. And, based on the TK weapons presented, the Throwing Stones approach appears to be a more efficient way of converting PPE into ranged kinetic damage. All subject to GM approval, of course.

I apologize for not being clearer in my original statement.

--flatline

[Eashamahel]

Techno Wizardry was supposed to be an open ended creation system, where characters and GMs worked together to make things

No.
Techno-Wizardry was supposed to be something that allowed PCs to convert tech devices to run off of PPE, or to create devices that the PC could use to cast by-the-book spells.
The whole "Hey, my character can invent brand new stuff that uses spells to create wild new effects that are only very loosely related to the working of the spell" thing was never in the original Rifts book.

Maybe you don't really remember those original items, but many of them do not work like this. TK Machine Gun? It neither worked just like a pre-existing spell nor made a Machinegun that ran on magic, it made a magic machine gun that did MD. Similarly, a TW converted Laser didn't make your laser rifle run off of PPE, it gave it specific rules for damage, payload, ect, creating a new weapon that in no way was a copy of something available as a spell alone.

The TW creation rules were originally very simple.

No, just vague on generalities and good on specifics. What you COULD or COULDN'T do was vague, but the spells and items required for all of the items and conversions in the Rulebook were explained, which is what they got away from very fast. By the first World Book there was TW gear and weapons, like their Vampire hunting gear (water pistols, ect) which neither produced the effect of a spell, nor had the items and equipment needed to re-create them yourself listed.

You could take a laser gun and have it run off of PPE.
Or you could make a gun that cast Fire Bolt, exactly as the spell normally works.
That's it.

You must own a different Rulebook than me. You could make a laser weapon run off of PPE, but my Wilks 447 was not a Wilks 447 that ran off of PPE, it was a weapon that inflicted different damage and hate a different payload that ran off of PPE. Seems fairly unique. Similarly, my L-20 converted to TW was no longer an L-20, as it no longer has a function to fire pulses, just the same 10 blasts of 2D6MD, nearly identical to my TW converted 447.
As for a gun that shoots firebolt just like the spell, that is the ONLY example of a ranged weapon which is TW converted that actually works identically to a spell. The TW Machineguns don't re-create spell effects, and neither do the Ion weapons. Sure, an Ion Weapon uses call lightning, but it doesn't do 1D6/level, it does a flat 3D6. Again, neither a direct spell effect, nor just changing a weapons power source. Instead you are creating a new item that does neither exactly what the gun did before, nor what the spells themselves could do.

They didn't need to do anything for balance, because it already was balanced: you couldn't do anything with Techno-Wizardry devices that you built that another mage couldn't do just by casting a spell (or shooting a standard laser).
It wasn't until RUE that there were any rules for techno-wizards inventing their own, original devices that utilized spells in non-standard ways.

[/quote][/quote][/quote]

Flaming Sword? Remember that? Came out of a rulebook, created a flaming sword. Was there a 'Flaming Sword' spell other mages could cast? Nope. It was a wholly unique item, right out of the Rulebook. How about the Psionic Mind Shield? Exact same thing.

TW gear right from the beginning was already moving past the creation of gear that had identical effects to spells, which would have been fine, if every TW item printed after the rulebook included the 'Spells Needed' and 'Physical Requirements' sections that the original TW gear all had listed. It didn't.

[Killer Cyborg]

Techno Wizardry was supposed to be an open ended creation system, where characters and GMs worked together to make things

No.
Techno-Wizardry was supposed to be something that allowed PCs to convert tech devices to run off of PPE, or to create devices that the PC could use to cast by-the-book spells.
The whole "Hey, my character can invent brand new stuff that uses spells to create wild new effects that are only very loosely related to the working of the spell" thing was never in the original Rifts book.

Maybe you don't really remember those original items, but many of them do not work like this. TK Machine Gun?
Similarly, a TW converted Laser didn't make your laser rifle run off of PPE, it gave it specific rules for damage, payload, ect, creating a new weapon that in no way was a copy of something available as a spell alone.

If you look at your RMB, you'll notice that TK Machine Guns are described under the heading of:
Change Power Source To Magic PPE.
That's all that the TK conversion was considered, a conversion of the weapon so that it would work off of PPE instead of technology.
And it was a SET device. It didn't matter if you tried to convert an AK-47 or a M-60: the damage was the same.
You weren't inventing anything new: you were following a recipe in order to convert an existing weapon over to be powered magically.

By the first World Book there was TW gear and weapons, like their Vampire hunting gear (water pistols, ect) which neither produced the effect of a spell, nor had the items and equipment needed to re-create them yourself listed.

Because you couldn't re-create them yourself.
Creating that kind of TW device was not a part of the Techno-Wizard OCC powers.
The only TW devices you could create were tech devices that were converted to run off of magic, and devices that could cast spells for you.

You could take a laser gun and have it run off of PPE.
Or you could make a gun that cast Fire Bolt, exactly as the spell normally works.
That's it.

You must own a different Rulebook than me. You could make a laser weapon run off of PPE, but my Wilks 447 was not a Wilks 447 that ran off of PPE, it was a weapon that inflicted different damage and hate a different payload that ran off of PPE. Seems fairly unique. Similarly, my L-20 converted to TW was no longer an L-20, as it no longer has a function to fire pulses, just the same 10 blasts of 2D6MD, nearly identical to my TW converted 447.

Not sure what part of that you think conflicts with what I've said.

As for a gun that shoots firebolt just like the spell, that is the ONLY example of a ranged weapon which is TW converted that actually works identically to a spell.

I'm not saying "every TW device functioned exactly as the spell."
I'm saying "Your PC could not create TW devices that functioned differently from the spell, except for the ways described under the Change Power Source To Magic PPE section."

They didn't need to do anything for balance, because it already was balanced: you couldn't do anything with Techno-Wizardry devices that you built that another mage couldn't do just by casting a spell (or shooting a standard laser).
It wasn't until RUE that there were any rules for techno-wizards inventing their own, original devices that utilized spells in non-standard ways.

Flaming Sword? Remember that?

Fair enough: I'll rephrase.
"you couldn't do anything with Techno-Wizardry devices that you built that another mage couldn't do just by casting a spell (or shooting a standard laser), with a handful of stated exceptions in the form of official designs that were already balanced."
You could build a TW Flaming Sword, as the book described.
You could not build a TW Flaming Sword using other spells, other methods, or other designs.
You could not use other spells to make a TW Ice Sword, or a TK Sword, or anything else.
And all that was needed in order to create a TW Flaming Sword was: 150 PPE, an iron rod, and gold or copper plating.
No other spells or anything.

TW gear right from the beginning was already moving past the creation of gear that had identical effects to spells

Yes.
But PCs were never described as having the ability to design that kind of gear themselves.
So TW creation rules weren't an issue. Conferring with the GM wasn't an issue.
If you had the components to make a TW Flaming Sword, you could make it. Period.
If you didn't, you couldn't. Period.
And you couldn't invent your own devices, except for those that cast spells.

[ShadowLogan]

The more obvious way to create a TW Revolver that does kinetic damage would have been to use the 2nd level spell Throwing Stones.

Because Throwing Stones has a requirement of a physical object to manipulate when it's fired and really wouldn't be a bolt of "TK Force", it would be a simple bullet.

I have a tendency to equate two things if the result is the same even if the means are different. This is probably due to my engineering training where you don't generally care how a black box functions on the inside as long as the proper output is returned for a given input.

A TK weapon takes PPE as an input and does kinetic damage at range.

A TW weapon based on Throwing Stones also takes PPE as an input and does kinetic damage at range. And, based on the TK weapons presented, the Throwing Stones approach appears to be a more efficient way of converting PPE into ranged kinetic damage. All subject to GM approval, of course.

I apologize for not being clearer in my original statement.

--flatline

All I'm going to add is that output in this case depends on the POV.

The after effects of a TK bolt is that it would leave nothing behind of it's self, a thrown stone would. So their outputs from certain view points are different.

[Snow Hawk]

Techno Wizardry was supposed to be an open ended creation system, where characters and GMs worked together to make things

No.
Techno-Wizardry was supposed to be something that allowed PCs to convert tech devices to run off of PPE, or to create devices that the PC could use to cast by-the-book spells.
The whole "Hey, my character can invent brand new stuff that uses spells to create wild new effects that are only very loosely related to the working of the spell" thing was never in the original Rifts book.

Maybe you don't really remember those original items, but many of them do not work like this. TK Machine Gun? It neither worked just like a pre-existing spell nor made a Machinegun that ran on magic, it made a magic machine gun that did MD. Similarly, a TW converted Laser didn't make your laser rifle run off of PPE, it gave it specific rules for damage, payload, ect, creating a new weapon that in no way was a copy of something available as a spell alone.

The TW creation rules were originally very simple.

No, just vague on generalities and good on specifics. What you COULD or COULDN'T do was vague, but the spells and items required for all of the items and conversions in the Rulebook were explained, which is what they got away from very fast. By the first World Book there was TW gear and weapons, like their Vampire hunting gear (water pistols, ect) which neither produced the effect of a spell, nor had the items and equipment needed to re-create them yourself listed.

You could take a laser gun and have it run off of PPE.
Or you could make a gun that cast Fire Bolt, exactly as the spell normally works.
That's it.

You must own a different Rulebook than me. You could make a laser weapon run off of PPE, but my Wilks 447 was not a Wilks 447 that ran off of PPE, it was a weapon that inflicted different damage and hate a different payload that ran off of PPE. Seems fairly unique. Similarly, my L-20 converted to TW was no longer an L-20, as it no longer has a function to fire pulses, just the same 10 blasts of 2D6MD, nearly identical to my TW converted 447.
As for a gun that shoots firebolt just like the spell, that is the ONLY example of a ranged weapon which is TW converted that actually works identically to a spell. The TW Machineguns don't re-create spell effects, and neither do the Ion weapons. Sure, an Ion Weapon uses call lightning, but it doesn't do 1D6/level, it does a flat 3D6. Again, neither a direct spell effect, nor just changing a weapons power source. Instead you are creating a new item that does neither exactly what the gun did before, nor what the spells themselves could do.

They didn't need to do anything for balance, because it already was balanced: you couldn't do anything with Techno-Wizardry devices that you built that another mage couldn't do just by casting a spell (or shooting a standard laser).
It wasn't until RUE that there were any rules for techno-wizards inventing their own, original devices that utilized spells in non-standard ways.

[/quote][/quote]

Flaming Sword? Remember that? Came out of a rulebook, created a flaming sword. Was there a 'Flaming Sword' spell other mages could cast? Nope. It was a wholly unique item, right out of the Rulebook. How about the Psionic Mind Shield? Exact same thing.

TW gear right from the beginning was already moving past the creation of gear that had identical effects to spells, which would have been fine, if every TW item printed after the rulebook included the 'Spells Needed' and 'Physical Requirements' sections that the original TW gear all had listed. It didn't.[/quote]

I agree with just about all of this post, and just to make sure that I was not crazy I just went back and read the TW in the old rule book and it dose not say anywhere that TW PCs can't make up new things and I think that it was heavily implied in the wording that you (the PC) should invent your own new stuff.

[Killer Cyborg]

I just went back and read the TW in the old rule book and it dose not say anywhere that TW PCs can't make up new things

It never says that you CAN make up new things.

and I think that it was heavily implied in the wording that you (the PC) should invent your own new stuff.

Quote some passages at me that you think heavily imply that, and I'll look them over.

Just keep in mind, I'm not talking about using Fly As The Eagle built into a jetpack in order to fly at the same speeds that the spell would normally let you- that's by-the-book.
I'm talking about using Fire Bolt, Energy Bolt, and Levitate to make a TW Jetpack that lets you fly at 300 mph, or whatever.

Better yet, the TW Flaming Sword is a great example. If it wasn't in the book specifically, with listed requirements for making it, there's nothing in the books that would have allowed a PC to just up and invent the thing himself/herself.

Rifts, p. 90, states:
Other spells can be used to create other devices. For example: Superior Invisibility can be used to create a vehicle or suit that can turn invisible.
Not to create a suit or vehicle that can pass through walls, or that's impervious to lasers (because they pass right through the suit/vehicle), not to do anything other than exactly what casting the spell would do- turn the target invisible.

Page 92 states:
Particle beam weapons can NOT be converted to magic!
Which is a specific limitation as to what can and cannot be done with Techno-Wizardry. It wasn't an anything-goes free-for-all.
By today's rules, there's nothing stopping you from making a TW particle beam pistol using Energy Bolt and Energy Field for the spell chain. Well, nothing other than the GM, that is.
Same with the rest of the devices in the Change Power Source To Magic PPE section- they're all very specific devices, with specific limitations and effects.
Nothing in there about being able to just make new stuff up, stuff that's not in the book.

P. 92-94 has the other class power of techno-wizards, which is "Adding an Element of Magic to Technology."
Note that this power is NOT "Inventing New Techno-Wizardry Devices."
It's just taking something technological, and adding an element of magic to it.
It's taking a suit of power armor, and adding the ability for that armor to cast a spell like AoI, Chameleon, etc.
Not to make up new abilities for those spells, but simply to cast those spells through the armor, instead of casting them yourself.
Or taking something like a glider or boat, and adding the element of magic to it that allows it to be used on ley lines.
Again, there is a specific list of things that can be built this way, and they have specific parameters and requirements.

[Razzinold]

As a GM I would allow a player who was a Techno Wizard to invent the own devices combining spells (and having the objects work in way other then the spell intended). Why limit their imagination, it seems a logical step in the techno wizard progression (at least to me) that they would be able to create things like that. I had a GM once who let a player that was a Nazca (sp?) Line Drawer start to develop their own version of magic tattoos. It took the player a long time of playing (he didn't let him start the game with the ability) and he actually never fully realized his goal before the game came to a halt, but the fact that he took a known ability and tried to expand upon it was pretty cool (IMO).

[Eashamahel]

So, just so I understand, Killer Cyborg, your premise is that the Techno Wizard can make any items from the Rulebook that are TW items, but any further TW items introduced into the game, are not able to be made by the Techno Wizards? Kind of like, they were made by NPC Techno Wizards who know how, but PC Techno Wizards don't know and can't learn? Not criticizing, that seems a reasonable, if a little boring, decision.

The real problem with Techno Wizardry is not the original info, but as I think has been said already, that further TW devices creation requirements are not explained, but must have been made by someone, namely a Techno Wizard, so it stands that other Techno Wizards can make them as well. Since they don't follow the same 'how to' description initial items do, I think most people over the years decided that they would have to come up with some reasonable spells and items to make said creations, and as each new book brought more TW items, the idea was forwarded that Techno Wizardry was capable of making things that hadn't yet been described, and thus people who played Techno Wizards wanted to do just that. A shotgun from New West that casts Wind Rush? Hard to argue that a Techno Wizard couldn't figure that one out. But a lot of later items, especially after new spells had been created, were just seemingly impossible, since they didn't use any previous spells, or at least not use those spells in ways the spells would have worked had they been cast instead of imbued into technology.

I have no problem with a GM saying, 'you can only do what's in the book', seems reasonable, but that's really just a symptom of the fact that Rifts as a system is vague on specifics/systems and big on generalities/'role-playing'. I have no idea what tools an Operator needs to fix a power armour, for instance, or a towns nuclear power plant. I could probably look up some reasonable real-life substitutes online, but those aren't even listed in the 'equipment' section of the rulebook for purchase, so I have to either assume that no Operator can get the tools necessary to fix those things (or hardly anything else, how about checking the compression on combustion engine? Don't see the gauge available for sale), or that the game is set up more to be vague on systems, and that the concept of the Operator is that he can repair those things.

As I said, I have no problem with 'only rulebook items' for Techno Wizards, but that's a rough path, because it just causes many OCC's to just be NPC's and not PC's. Why would you want to play a Techno Wizard who can make X items, when every Techno Wizard you meet along the way can make those items as well as Y items? Similarly, why be an Operator if there are actually no rules for converting/modifying machines, but every city you go to has people who are otherwise the same as you who can do it because they are NOT you?

[Killer Cyborg]

So, just so I understand, Killer Cyborg, your premise is that the Techno Wizard can make any items from the Rulebook that are TW items, but any further TW items introduced into the game, are not able to be made by the Techno Wizards? Kind of like, they were made by NPC Techno Wizards who know how, but PC Techno Wizards don't know and can't learn? Not criticizing, that seems a reasonable, if a little boring, decision.

Correct!
Which isn't any kind of judgment on people who allowed PCs to make new stuff up- just a comment that that sort of thing wasn't actually in the rules until RUE.

The real problem with Techno Wizardry is not the original info, but as I think has been said already, that further TW devices creation requirements are not explained, but must have been made by someone, namely a Techno Wizard, so it stands that other Techno Wizards can make them as well.

True.
By that same token, all the tech stuff in the books must have been made by Operators, or people with that kind of same skill set.
But that doesn't mean that a GM should allow PCs who are Operators to just go around inventing brand new stuff.
It's on thing when the writers of the game decide that they want to introduce an energy pistol that does 1d4x10 MD per shot, and it's another thing entirely when a 1st level PC tries to do it.
In fact, if a player declared that he wanted to, off-screen between sessions, invent a brand new laser weapon, with its own stats that are superior to the official existing weapons, most GMs (and other players) would laugh him out of the game.
But people don't have the same expectations with Techno-Wizardry for some reason.
An Operator wants to invent an anti-gravity belt with a built-in force-field (of his own, original design)... most people would think that was unreasonable.
But if a TW wants to do it.... most people seem to think that's the expected sort of thing for them to do.
Even though it's never said in the books that innovating and inventing brand new things is the kind of thing that most techno-wizards do.

Basically, yes... some Techno-Wizard or other out there probably invented every new TW device, just like some kind of Operator or Mechanical/Electrical Engineer out there invented the tech stuff.
Just like in the real world, some mechanical/electrical engineer or other invents everything we have in the real world.
But in the real world, it's not normal or expected for any and every mechanical engineer to invent something that the world has never seen before.
Just it's not normal or expected for the majority of people who stop at gas stations to win the lottery... even though the odds are good that the lottery WILL be won by somebody who stopped at a gas station somewhere.

Since they don't follow the same 'how to' description initial items do, I think most people over the years decided that they would have to come up with some reasonable spells and items to make said creations, and as each new book brought more TW items, the idea was forwarded that Techno Wizardry was capable of making things that hadn't yet been described, and thus people who played Techno Wizards wanted to do just that. A shotgun from New West that casts Wind Rush? Hard to argue that a Techno Wizard couldn't figure that one out. But a lot of later items, especially after new spells had been created, were just seemingly impossible, since they didn't use any previous spells, or at least not use those spells in ways the spells would have worked had they been cast instead of imbued into technology.

It's hard to argue that most people couldn't figure out how to invent the normal, percussion cap, breach-loading shotguns.
But, for millions of years of human history, nobody did.
Because invention isn't as easy as it might seem. If it was, everybody would be doing it, all the time.

I have no problem with a GM saying, 'you can only do what's in the book', seems reasonable, but that's really just a symptom of the fact that Rifts as a system is vague on specifics/systems and big on generalities/'role-playing'.

Agreed.
By that same token, I have no problem saying that Kevin, in his own games, probably WOULD let a first level Techno-Wizard try to invent new stuff.
But he wouldn't have had a system for it; he'd just think about it a few seconds, then either decide that you could do it, or that you couldn't, based on nothing beyond his own instincts and intuition at the time.
He seems like the kind of guy who's far more interested in story than in system, which is why Rifts is what it is.

I have no idea what tools an Operator needs to fix a power armour, for instance, or a towns nuclear power plant. I could probably look up some reasonable real-life substitutes online, but those aren't even listed in the 'equipment' section of the rulebook for purchase, so I have to either assume that no Operator can get the tools necessary to fix those things (or hardly anything else, how about checking the compression on combustion engine? Don't see the gauge available for sale), or that the game is set up more to be vague on systems, and that the concept of the Operator is that he can repair those things.

As I said, I have no problem with 'only rulebook items' for Techno Wizards, but that's a rough path, because it just causes many OCC's to just be NPC's and not PC's. Why would you want to play a Techno Wizard who can make X items, when every Techno Wizard you meet along the way can make those items as well as Y items? Similarly, why be an Operator if there are actually no rules for converting/modifying machines, but every city you go to has people who are otherwise the same as you who can do it because they are NOT you?

Well, I wouldn't say that every NPC could invent new stuff either, or even most NPCs.
For the same reasons that I don't think that PCs in general could back before RUE- it just doesn't make sense.
If most people could invent new things at will, then most people would, and everything in the books would be obsolete almost as soon as it came out.

As for Operators, I'd only ever really let them repair and modify existing machines, not invent new stuff entirely.
The reason why NPC Operators (SOME of them) can recharge E-Clips (pre-RUE), repair armor, repair robots, etc. isn't because they're NPCs, it's because they have the right equipment.
To repair a robot (beyond minor, superficial stuff) takes a full machine-shop full of expensive tools and equipment.
Just like plenty of people today can repair their own cars... but only if they have the right tools for the job.
Hell, just check into the cost of one of those machines that pulls the tires off of the rims. They're expensive.

In the real world, the vast majority of new inventions and technologies are NOT made by mercenaries who run around adventuring 90% of the time, and have only been doing so for a year or three.
They're made by people who have dedicated their lives to to research and development of new technology, or even students who are spending years of their times studying, learning, and immersing themselves in research and special products.
Just because an NPC can invent the TW Flaming Sword doesn't mean that a PC should be able to- for all we know, it was a 15th level NPC who spent 50 years trying to invent that ONE thing.
Just because some Naruni Operator (or equivalent) somewhere invented the Plasma Gatling Gun doesn't mean that an average Operator on Earth should be able to invent that kind of thing.
Again, for all we know, it was a 15th level Naruni Operator who had been working the problem for decades.
More likely, in fact, it was a TEAM of Operators who were all working the problem for decades.
Because most of the time new inventions are team efforts these days, when it comes to high-tech creations.

IF a PC wants to invent a bunch of new stuff, that's cool with me... but it'd mean role-playing a lot more lab work, and a lot less combat and treasure-seeking.
Because its the people in labs who invent new things as a rule, not the guys running around fighting oppressive governments via field combat, or defending villages from bandits, or whatever.

[Killer Cyborg]

As a GM I would allow a player who was a Techno Wizard to invent the own devices combining spells (and having the objects work in way other then the spell intended). Why limit their imagination, it seems a logical step in the techno wizard progression (at least to me) that they would be able to create things like that. I had a GM once who let a player that was a Nazca (sp?) Line Drawer start to develop their own version of magic tattoos. It took the player a long time of playing (he didn't let him start the game with the ability) and he actually never fully realized his goal before the game came to a halt, but the fact that he took a known ability and tried to expand upon it was pretty cool (IMO).

Why limit them?
Because I'm a simulationist when it comes to gaming, not just a fluffer for other people's fantasies.
Same reason why I don't just let PCs win the lotto when they want to.
Same reason why I don't let every Body Fixer come up with the new cure for Cancer*
Same reason why I don't let just every Rogue Scholar find the Holy Grail.

Which isn't to say that I'd never let any of them do that kind of thing... but it'd be the focus of a campaign, or at least a major plot point, not a something that you can do in your off-time, and NOT something that you should expect to be able to do, just because you've picked the loose career path that could potentially lead to that thing, someday, if you're lucky.


*okay, cancer has been cured by the Coalition already. So just replace that with whatever disease still exists on that same level.

[Mack]

I'm sorry if I'm just not getting it, but even with these considerably more detailed rules, TW device design still seems pretty arbitrary.

Yep, pretty much.

While this is a minor distinction, I would point out that all of the TW rules presented in RUE are labeled "Optional." I consider them more of a framework with as opposed to an actual system. They are a starting point.

My problem with the system is that there are a couple ways to abuse it.
1) There's a few cases of cheap gemstones being connected to powerful spells. This makes it very easy to just tack on 80 carats worth and make the PPE needed plummet.
2) Some spells are just as effective at Level 1 as they are at Level 15, such as Resurrection. So why would a player ever make a TW version that wasn't Level 1? (FYI - I made a Resurrection Device that costs only 4,000 credits to build and needs only 8 PPE to activate.)

I can deal with needing the GM's approval to combine certain effects (like taking the range from one spell and the duration from the other, or lowering the effectiveness while raising the duration like the Carpet of Adhesion tires) but the above are glaring errors in the methodology.

My other beef is that if you use all the rules for calcuating Base PPE Construction Cost you can get an unsolvable circular reference.

[Eashamahel]

By that same token, all the tech stuff in the books must have been made by Operators, or people with that kind of same skill set.
But that doesn't mean that a GM should allow PCs who are Operators to just go around inventing brand new stuff.
It's on thing when the writers of the game decide that they want to introduce an energy pistol that does 1d4x10 MD per shot, and it's another thing entirely when a 1st level PC tries to do it.
In fact, if a player declared that he wanted to, off-screen between sessions, invent a brand new laser weapon, with its own stats that are superior to the official existing weapons, most GMs (and other players) would laugh him out of the game.

However, if a PC Operator had the skills, equipment, and time to do so, it wouldn't be unreasonable to allow them to do so. Sure, it might take millions of dollars of R&D, state of the art facilities, and a team working around the clock for four years, but there's no reason it wouldn't be possible, just not really useful in a day by day roleplaying sense.

An Operator wants to invent an anti-gravity belt with a built-in force-field (of his own, original design)... most people would think that was unreasonable.
But if a TW wants to do it.... most people seem to think that's the expected sort of thing for them to do.
Even though it's never said in the books that innovating and inventing brand new things is the kind of thing that most techno-wizards do.

Which I think I said earlier is not unreasonable in the same sense that the operator above doing so is not unreasonable, but it may take the same years of practice, team of professionals, and in this case, unique items or unknown spells. Not likely for a PC to be able to do so in a day by day playing sense.

Basically, yes... some Techno-Wizard or other out there probably invented every new TW device, just like some kind of Operator or Mechanical/Electrical Engineer out there invented the tech stuff.
Just like in the real world, some mechanical/electrical engineer or other invents everything we have in the real world.
But in the real world, it's not normal or expected for any and every mechanical engineer to invent something that the world has never seen before.
Just it's not normal or expected for the majority of people who stop at gas stations to win the lottery... even though the odds are good that the lottery WILL be won by somebody who stopped at a gas station somewhere.

The one thing you are missing is that the game system and you by your own admission won't let anyone make something not in the rulebook, or inventing new stuff, and that is reasonable, because as I said above, it is often not possible in a game sense unless you want to skip years of work and research, however, that doesn't cover your techno wizard COPYING something already made, no invention necessary. Heck, a PC Techno Wizard could very possibly buy a non-rulebook TW item from a NPC Techno Wizard who made the item, discuss how it was made, find out all of the spells and items, have them, open the device up and study it, and STILL not be able to make one themselves. Kind of hard to explain to a PC why they can't make a Wind Rush blasting shotgun when they have the Wind Rush spell, and a TW Wind Rush shotgun or two to take apart and study.

It's hard to argue that most people couldn't figure out how to invent the normal, percussion cap, breach-loading shotguns.
But, for millions of years of human history, nobody did.
Because invention isn't as easy as it might seem. If it was, everybody would be doing it, all the time.

Hm, you have kind of lost me, maybe that's just not a very good analogy? Once, to use your example, someone DID figure out how to make said percussion cap, breach-loading shotgun, other gun makers DID figure out how to do it. Infact, in short order EVERY gunsmith with proper equipment and resources could do it. The Techno Wizard analogy is more like, one person figured out how to 'insert accomplishment', and no one else every could, not even people in the same field with equal resources, because they didn't learn how to in their initial schooling. Invention is certainly intensive, but copying and imitating is not so intense.

By that same token, I have no problem saying that Kevin, in his own games, probably WOULD let a first level Techno-Wizard try to invent new stuff.
But he wouldn't have had a system for it; he'd just think about it a few seconds, then either decide that you could do it, or that you couldn't, based on nothing beyond his own instincts and intuition at the time.
He seems like the kind of guy who's far more interested in story than in system, which is why Rifts is what it is.

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly how I do it, as I said above, and often if someone wants to make something, it requires real time and effort, new components, and maybe might not even work once they get everything they need, or maybe it does. I think we're both in agreement that Rifts is, at it's core, a game of 'playing' and not 'rolls', and is really not set up for a complete creation system, which is why the new creation rules don't seem to really cover everything and often seem arbitrary. I don't dislike them, and they help a lot of people, but I think Rifts would have been more suited for a longer explanation/musing on the nature of Techno-Wizardry, as well as suggestions and a general creation guideline, as well as commentary for GMs and Players alike.

As for Operators, I'd only ever really let them repair and modify existing machines, not invent new stuff entirely.
The reason why NPC Operators (SOME of them) can recharge E-Clips (pre-RUE), repair armor, repair robots, etc. isn't because they're NPCs, it's because they have the right equipment.
To repair a robot (beyond minor, superficial stuff) takes a full machine-shop full of expensive tools and equipment.
Just like plenty of people today can repair their own cars... but only if they have the right tools for the job.
Hell, just check into the cost of one of those machines that pulls the tires off of the rims. They're expensive.

I agree entirely, if you want to make something new, crazy investment of time and energy. You CAN spend your gaming doing that, but it's a pretty boring life! Also, you just reminded me of years of putting tires on rims, and trying to seat beads, and why I hate painted rims... (totally off topic, but I HATE painted rims, you ALWAYS scratch the paint on them when changing tires.

In the real world, the vast majority of new inventions and technologies are NOT made by mercenaries who run around adventuring 90% of the time, and have only been doing so for a year or three.
They're made by people who have dedicated their lives to to research and development of new technology, or even students who are spending years of their times studying, learning, and immersing themselves in research and special products.
Just because an NPC can invent the TW Flaming Sword doesn't mean that a PC should be able to- for all we know, it was a 15th level NPC who spent 50 years trying to invent that ONE thing.

Invent, no, but re-create? Sure. Assuming you have the necessary spells and items and one or more to study. The problem is that, of course, you DON'T know what spells or items those are pieces of equipment take, because they aren't listed with any TW items after the rulebook. I've always wondered actually if the decision NOT to list the creation requirements for those post-rulebook items was made because the writers didn't think it was necessary, to save space/cut down on rules/system.

[Killer Cyborg]

By that same token, all the tech stuff in the books must have been made by Operators, or people with that kind of same skill set.
But that doesn't mean that a GM should allow PCs who are Operators to just go around inventing brand new stuff.
It's on thing when the writers of the game decide that they want to introduce an energy pistol that does 1d4x10 MD per shot, and it's another thing entirely when a 1st level PC tries to do it.
In fact, if a player declared that he wanted to, off-screen between sessions, invent a brand new laser weapon, with its own stats that are superior to the official existing weapons, most GMs (and other players) would laugh him out of the game.

However, if a PC Operator had the skills, equipment, and time to do so, it wouldn't be unreasonable to allow them to do so.

Add in LUCK, and yeah, I agree.
But luck IS a factor, not something that can just be assumed.

Sure, it might take millions of dollars of R&D, state of the art facilities, and a team working around the clock for four years, but there's no reason it wouldn't be possible, just not really useful in a day by day roleplaying sense.

Agreed; the thing is, PCs tend to be adventurers, not lab rats.
As I said, if somebody wanted to play a lab rat... I could go with that, but man... that'd be one heck of a non-traditional campaign.

Not likely for a PC to be able to do so in a day by day playing sense.

Agreed.
It'd only be possible by GM fiat.
And GM fiat would also make it possible for PCs... but it's not the kind of thing that one should expect, or feel cheated if one does not get.

The one thing you are missing is that the game system and you by your own admission won't let anyone make something not in the rulebook, or inventing new stuff, and that is reasonable, because as I said above, it is often not possible in a game sense unless you want to skip years of work and research, however, that doesn't cover your techno wizard COPYING something already made, no invention necessary.

Actually, I might well let somebody do that.
Because I do all kinds of stuff that isn't in the rules at all.
But that doesn't make it in the rules, a part of the game, or something that people should rightfully expect to happen.
Which is the point of discussion; my original post was in response to a comparison to the old rules vs. the new rules... and the old rules had no provisions at all for TWs creating non-book devices, except for stuff that simply replicated existing spells without modification.

Kind of hard to explain to a PC why they can't make a Wind Rush blasting shotgun when they have the Wind Rush spell, and a TW Wind Rush shotgun or two to take apart and study.

I just ask the players to build a television, after taking a few apart.
If they can do it, I cede the point.

It's hard to argue that most people couldn't figure out how to invent the normal, percussion cap, breach-loading shotguns.
But, for millions of years of human history, nobody did.
Because invention isn't as easy as it might seem. If it was, everybody would be doing it, all the time.

Hm, you have kind of lost me, maybe that's just not a very good analogy? Once, to use your example, someone DID figure out how to make said percussion cap, breach-loading shotgun, other gun makers DID figure out how to do it. Infact, in short order EVERY gunsmith with proper equipment and resources could do it.

Yes, one person out of hundreds of millions of people, over the course of millions of years did in fact figure it out.
Which is far cry different from "Any schmuck with the right OCC."

Once it was figured out, other gunsmiths could replicate it... just like techno-wizards can replicate official devices like Flaming Swords and such.
But replication isn't the same as invention.

I think Rifts would have been more suited for a longer explanation/musing on the nature of Techno-Wizardry, as well as suggestions and a general creation guideline, as well as commentary for GMs and Players alike.

Unfortunately, that level of detail does not exist in Rifts, mechanically or setting-wise.

I agree entirely, if you want to make something new, crazy investment of time and energy.

The only thing I'd add to that is that before RUE, that kind of thing wasn't allowed for in the rules.
(Although it wasn't expressly forbidden either)

In the real world, the vast majority of new inventions and technologies are NOT made by mercenaries who run around adventuring 90% of the time, and have only been doing so for a year or three.
They're made by people who have dedicated their lives to to research and development of new technology, or even students who are spending years of their times studying, learning, and immersing themselves in research and special products.
Just because an NPC can invent the TW Flaming Sword doesn't mean that a PC should be able to- for all we know, it was a 15th level NPC who spent 50 years trying to invent that ONE thing.

Invent, no, but re-create? Sure. Assuming you have the necessary spells and items and one or more to study. The problem is that, of course, you DON'T know what spells or items those are pieces of equipment take, because they aren't listed with any TW items after the rulebook. I've always wondered actually if the decision NOT to list the creation requirements for those post-rulebook items was made because the writers didn't think it was necessary, to save space/cut down on rules/system.

The stuff you could replicate in the main book had requirements listed.
In later books, I think it was just sloppiness on the part of the writers, OR an assumption that PCs simply couldn't replicate it reasonably (i.e., the trade secrets were secrets).

[flatline]

My other beef is that if you use all the rules for calcuating Base PPE Construction Cost you can get an unsolvable circular reference.

If you're talking about using the PPE construction cost to calculate the cost of storing additional energy (via diamonds or whatever), I've never bothered to figure that out. The first time I read it it seemed like I needed to pull out my calculus book and refresh my understanding of limit theory. I think I understand what was intended, but I'd have to look at it again to be certain.

--flatline

[Eashamahel]

I just ask the players to build a television, after taking a few apart.
If they can do it, I cede the point.

That's a pretty weak defense, seeing as that analogy only works assuming the players you are asking are professional TV makers to begin with (or at least electronic engineers).

Yes, one person out of hundreds of millions of people, over the course of millions of years did in fact figure it out.
Which is far cry different from "Any schmuck with the right OCC."

Once it was figured out, other gunsmiths could replicate it... just like techno-wizards can replicate official devices like Flaming Swords and such.
But replication isn't the same as invention.

Indeed, replication is not the same as invention. someone else INVENTED all of the TW gear in later books, but PC's might want to REPLICATE it. Now, if a PC has never seen one before, but the player has read the item and wants to make one, that would require the PC to invent such an item, which may be unlikely/extremely time consuming. However, if the PC's TW Character has seen them before, especially if they are part of the regular game, then there is no inventing, just replicating.

In the end though you are right, there were only rules for making the stuff in the rulebook, or another way, there were originally rules to make every known TW device. There was nothing that came after that had such rules. I can totally agree with the 'no rules, no make', keeps it simple, and I actually am not a fan of a lot of later Rifts stuff anyways.

I wonder though, if an official line would ever come out on whether or not that was intentional (no PCs can make these) or the writers assumed PCs would. I think the fact that the TW creation rules in the R:UE book were listed as 'Optional' as well as KS's incredibly long time frame before he addressed that there was/could be confusion about Techno Wizards and how they make things shows pretty well where he sat with the 'everything is fine, Techno Wizards build things, what's with all the confusion?' Not that I would ever expect anyone to admit that there might be a mistake/something was left out/slight lack of foreplanning in RIFTS!!! Again, as most people realize, Palladium books games (especially those written entirely by KS) are really weak on structured rules, and really big on Role-Playing.

PCs simply couldn't replicate it reasonably (i.e., the trade secrets were secrets).

Something that I found works very well here when PCs want to make something they have seen without the help or guidance of the person who originally made it or someone who knows exactly how to make it is to use the rules for Knock Off Weapons (seems pretty reasonable, seeing as how you are knocking off weapons). If you remember them, they generally cause the Knock Off to be heavier, have less payload, less MDC, ect all by a certain percentage.

[Killer Cyborg]

I just ask the players to build a television, after taking a few apart.
If they can do it, I cede the point.

That's a pretty weak defense, seeing as that analogy only works assuming the players you are asking are professional TV makers to begin with (or at least electronic engineers).

You think you have to be an electronic engineer in order to build a television?

Indeed, replication is not the same as invention. someone else INVENTED all of the TW gear in later books, but PC's might want to REPLICATE it. Now, if a PC has never seen one before, but the player has read the item and wants to make one, that would require the PC to invent such an item, which may be unlikely/extremely time consuming. However, if the PC's TW Character has seen them before, especially if they are part of the regular game, then there is no inventing, just replicating.

I don't have much issue with PCs replicating things. Although retro-engineering things isn't always easy, so I don't think that's it's necessarily something that can be assumed.
Just like the CS and other Earth-based powers haven't replicated Naruni gear, even though it wouldn't be hard to obtain samples to work with, a low-level techno-wizard may well find it difficult to impossible to replicate TW devices crafted by high level (or simply alien, or more advanced) techno-wizards.

In the end though you are right, there were only rules for making the stuff in the rulebook, or another way, there were originally rules to make every known TW device. There was nothing that came after that had such rules. I can totally agree with the 'no rules, no make', keeps it simple, and I actually am not a fan of a lot of later Rifts stuff anyways.

I wonder though, if an official line would ever come out on whether or not that was intentional (no PCs can make these) or the writers assumed PCs would. I think the fact that the TW creation rules in the R:UE book were listed as 'Optional' as well as KS's incredibly long time frame before he addressed that there was/could be confusion about Techno Wizards and how they make things shows pretty well where he sat with the 'everything is fine, Techno Wizards build things, what's with all the confusion?' Not that I would ever expect anyone to admit that there might be a mistake/something was left out/slight lack of foreplanning in RIFTS!!! Again, as most people realize, Palladium books games (especially those written entirely by KS) are really weak on structured rules, and really big on Role-Playing.

In a lot of ways, Palladium benefits from the confusion as much as they suffer from it.
The net effect of the vagueness of the rules tends to be that everybody ends up playing something that they, as a group, enjoy.

Something that I found works very well here when PCs want to make something they have seen without the help or guidance of the person who originally made it or someone who knows exactly how to make it is to use the rules for Knock Off Weapons (seems pretty reasonable, seeing as how you are knocking off weapons). If you remember them, they generally cause the Knock Off to be heavier, have less payload, less MDC, ect all by a certain percentage.

I agree; that does seem reasonable.

[Snow Hawk]

I just went back and read the TW in the old rule book and it dose not say anywhere that TW PCs can't make up new things

It never says that you CAN make up new things.

and I think that it was heavily implied in the wording that you (the PC) should invent your own new stuff.

Quote some passages at me that you think heavily imply that, and I'll look them over.

Just keep in mind, I'm not talking about using Fly As The Eagle built into a jetpack in order to fly at the same speeds that the spell would normally let you- that's by-the-book.
I'm talking about using Fire Bolt, Energy Bolt, and Levitate to make a TW Jetpack that lets you fly at 300 mph, or whatever.

Better yet, the TW Flaming Sword is a great example. If it wasn't in the book specifically, with listed requirements for making it, there's nothing in the books that would have allowed a PC to just up and invent the thing himself/herself.

Rifts, p. 90, states:
Other spells can be used to create other devices. For example: Superior Invisibility can be used to create a vehicle or suit that can turn invisible.
Not to create a suit or vehicle that can pass through walls, or that's impervious to lasers (because they pass right through the suit/vehicle), not to do anything other than exactly what casting the spell would do- turn the target invisible.

Page 92 states:
Particle beam weapons can NOT be converted to magic!
Which is a specific limitation as to what can and cannot be done with Techno-Wizardry. It wasn't an anything-goes free-for-all.
By today's rules, there's nothing stopping you from making a TW particle beam pistol using Energy Bolt and Energy Field for the spell chain. Well, nothing other than the GM, that is.
Same with the rest of the devices in the Change Power Source To Magic PPE section- they're all very specific devices, with specific limitations and effects.
Nothing in there about being able to just make new stuff up, stuff that's not in the book.

P. 92-94 has the other class power of techno-wizards, which is "Adding an Element of Magic to Technology."
Note that this power is NOT "Inventing New Techno-Wizardry Devices."
It's just taking something technological, and adding an element of magic to it.
It's taking a suit of power armor, and adding the ability for that armor to cast a spell like AoI, Chameleon, etc.
Not to make up new abilities for those spells, but simply to cast those spells through the armor, instead of casting them yourself.
Or taking something like a glider or boat, and adding the element of magic to it that allows it to be used on ley lines.
Again, there is a specific list of things that can be built this way, and they have specific parameters and requirements.

You have obviously read the TW entry so if you do not feel that it was implied then we are at an impasse and that's fine.

But in my opinion if it was not implied and the rules were interpreted as you propose then why did we get TW creation rules first in Rifter #21 and then in RUE?, and as far as I know no note saying that " no no we did not want you to do that" or words like that

[Snow Hawk]

I'm sorry if I'm just not getting it, but even with these considerably more detailed rules, TW device design still seems pretty arbitrary.

Yep, pretty much.

While this is a minor distinction, I would point out that all of the TW rules presented in RUE are labeled "Optional." I consider them more of a framework with as opposed to an actual system. They are a starting point.

My problem with the system is that there are a couple ways to abuse it.
1) There's a few cases of cheap gemstones being connected to powerful spells. This makes it very easy to just tack on 80 carats worth and make the PPE needed plummet.
2) Some spells are just as effective at Level 1 as they are at Level 15, such as Resurrection. So why would a player ever make a TW version that wasn't Level 1? (FYI - I made a Resurrection Device that costs only 4,000 credits to build and needs only 8 PPE to activate.)

I can deal with needing the GM's approval to combine certain effects (like taking the range from one spell and the duration from the other, or lowering the effectiveness while raising the duration like the Carpet of Adhesion tires) but the above are glaring errors in the methodology.

My other beef is that if you use all the rules for calcuating Base PPE Construction Cost you can get an unsolvable circular reference.

This is how I treat the TW creation rules as well.
They are much more like guidelines than rules

[Killer Cyborg]

if it was not implied and the rules were interpreted as you propose then why did we get TW creation rules first in Rifter #21 and then in RUE?, and as far as I know no note saying that " no no we did not want you to do that" or words like that

We got the rules in the Rifter, because somebody made them up. IIRC, they weren't official. Somebody might have just as easily written rules for Line Walkers to invent new TW items.
We got them in RUE, because in the 15 years between the main book and RUE, the general focus of the Techno-Wizard shifted from the original vision, to more of the inventor type that a lot of people mistakenly assumed after reading the RMB.
Also, because of the changing nature of RPGs.
Palladium's system came about because of D&D, and D&D was the standard for RPGs for a long, long time.
In basic D&D, no PCs could create the standard magic items of the day, and nobody thought twice about it.
In 1st and 2nd edition AD&D, PCs theoretically could create items... but it was impractical at best, and often effectively impossible, to the point where most people I knew at the time (1990ish) who played AD&D didn't even know that it was something that they could attempt.
That was the environment in which Rifts was created: a time where nobody expected their PCs to be able to just up and replicate magic items, much less invent brand new magic items of their own design.

But as the decades passed, consumer expectations changed. With AD&D 3.5, not to mention games like Morrowind and other computer games, PCs were able to invent new items, and it became a more acceptable and expected part of the game.
So when RUE came out, Palladium printed up rules for that kind of thing, simply due to customer demand/expectation.
Kevin notes this when he says (RUE 130):
...based on the multitude of fan comments, suggestions, pleas and requests sent to Palladium, it would seem many fans want rules like those in the pages to follow.

[Snow Hawk]

if it was not implied and the rules were interpreted as you propose then why did we get TW creation rules first in Rifter #21 and then in RUE?, and as far as I know no note saying that " no no we did not want you to do that" or words like that

We got the rules in the Rifter, because somebody made them up. IIRC, they weren't official. Somebody might have just as easily written rules for Line Walkers to invent new TW items.
We got them in RUE, because in the 15 years between the main book and RUE, the general focus of the Techno-Wizard shifted from the original vision, to more of the inventor type that a lot of people mistakenly assumed after reading the RMB.
Also, because of the changing nature of RPGs.
Palladium's system came about because of D&D, and D&D was the standard for RPGs for a long, long time.
In basic D&D, no PCs could create the standard magic items of the day, and nobody thought twice about it.
In 1st and 2nd edition AD&D, PCs theoretically could create items... but it was impractical at best, and often effectively impossible, to the point where most people I knew at the time (1990ish) who played AD&D didn't even know that it was something that they could attempt.
That was the environment in which Rifts was created: a time where nobody expected their PCs to be able to just up and replicate magic items, much less invent brand new magic items of their own design.

But as the decades passed, consumer expectations changed. With AD&D 3.5, not to mention games like Morrowind and other computer games, PCs were able to invent new items, and it became a more acceptable and expected part of the game.
So when RUE came out, Palladium printed up rules for that kind of thing, simply due to customer demand/expectation.
Kevin notes this when he says (RUE 130):
...based on the multitude of fan comments, suggestions, pleas and requests sent to Palladium, it would seem many fans want rules like those in the pages to follow.

I still disagree. Your argument is based in logic, and don't get me wrong logic is cool I like logic but the problem is that just because something sounds logical dose not inherently make it true and that my friend is where your statement lies. Until KS says that he did not intend it to be that way your logic is deduction with out proof.
So at the end of the day and all points in between we (you and I) have simply interpreted the written material in different ways you don't have to except it but I am done

[Killer Cyborg]

if it was not implied and the rules were interpreted as you propose then why did we get TW creation rules first in Rifter #21 and then in RUE?, and as far as I know no note saying that " no no we did not want you to do that" or words like that

We got the rules in the Rifter, because somebody made them up. IIRC, they weren't official. Somebody might have just as easily written rules for Line Walkers to invent new TW items.
We got them in RUE, because in the 15 years between the main book and RUE, the general focus of the Techno-Wizard shifted from the original vision, to more of the inventor type that a lot of people mistakenly assumed after reading the RMB.
Also, because of the changing nature of RPGs.
Palladium's system came about because of D&D, and D&D was the standard for RPGs for a long, long time.
In basic D&D, no PCs could create the standard magic items of the day, and nobody thought twice about it.
In 1st and 2nd edition AD&D, PCs theoretically could create items... but it was impractical at best, and often effectively impossible, to the point where most people I knew at the time (1990ish) who played AD&D didn't even know that it was something that they could attempt.
That was the environment in which Rifts was created: a time where nobody expected their PCs to be able to just up and replicate magic items, much less invent brand new magic items of their own design.

But as the decades passed, consumer expectations changed. With AD&D 3.5, not to mention games like Morrowind and other computer games, PCs were able to invent new items, and it became a more acceptable and expected part of the game.
So when RUE came out, Palladium printed up rules for that kind of thing, simply due to customer demand/expectation.
Kevin notes this when he says (RUE 130):
...based on the multitude of fan comments, suggestions, pleas and requests sent to Palladium, it would seem many fans want rules like those in the pages to follow.

I still disagree. Your argument is based in logic, and don't get me wrong logic is cool I like logic but the problem is that just because something sounds logical dose not inherently make it true and that my friend is where your statement lies. Until KS says that he did not intend it to be that way your logic is deduction with out proof.
So at the end of the day and all points in between we (you and I) have simply interpreted the written material in different ways you don't have to except it but I am done

Again, if you feel that there is anything in the RMB that supports your assumptions, by all means present the quotes and I'll look them over.
If there is not anything in the RMB that you feel supports your assumptions, then perhaps those assumptions are not correct.
Although, I agree that you and I need not agree on this point; we are each free to hold to our own views.

[Eashamahel]

You think you have to be an electronic engineer in order to build a television?

Nope, but you said that you would ask a PC, who is (I am assuming) not educated in the makings of televisions to construct one, as an apparant proof that Techno Wizards, who are educated Techno Wizards, can likewise not make Techno Wizard items.

I don't have much issue with PCs replicating things. Although retro-engineering things isn't always easy, so I don't think that's it's necessarily something that can be assumed.
Just like the CS and other Earth-based powers haven't replicated Naruni gear, even though it wouldn't be hard to obtain samples to work with, a low-level techno-wizard may well find it difficult to impossible to replicate TW devices crafted by high level (or simply alien, or more advanced) techno-wizards.

Indeed, but again, you are equating the CS trying to replicate Naruni gear with one Techno Wizard trying to replicate what another Techno Wizard has done. The difference between the CS and Naruni tech level is one of both Alien Technology (-30% ) and significant differences in advancement, while the difference in TW gear could be just as large (Earth Techno Wizard circa 102PA vs Splugorth tech, though it should be noted that even then, as of Atlantis "Theoretically, a...Techno Wizard could modify the barge to accomadate life forms other than the Splugorth Slaver." Although there is of course no system/rules to make that happen or allow PC's to do so), or almost non-existant (PC Techno Wizard vs Stormspire equipment).

[Snow Hawk]

if it was not implied and the rules were interpreted as you propose then why did we get TW creation rules first in Rifter #21 and then in RUE?, and as far as I know no note saying that " no no we did not want you to do that" or words like that

We got the rules in the Rifter, because somebody made them up. IIRC, they weren't official. Somebody might have just as easily written rules for Line Walkers to invent new TW items.
We got them in RUE, because in the 15 years between the main book and RUE, the general focus of the Techno-Wizard shifted from the original vision, to more of the inventor type that a lot of people mistakenly assumed after reading the RMB.
Also, because of the changing nature of RPGs.
Palladium's system came about because of D&D, and D&D was the standard for RPGs for a long, long time.
In basic D&D, no PCs could create the standard magic items of the day, and nobody thought twice about it.
In 1st and 2nd edition AD&D, PCs theoretically could create items... but it was impractical at best, and often effectively impossible, to the point where most people I knew at the time (1990ish) who played AD&D didn't even know that it was something that they could attempt.
That was the environment in which Rifts was created: a time where nobody expected their PCs to be able to just up and replicate magic items, much less invent brand new magic items of their own design.

But as the decades passed, consumer expectations changed. With AD&D 3.5, not to mention games like Morrowind and other computer games, PCs were able to invent new items, and it became a more acceptable and expected part of the game.
So when RUE came out, Palladium printed up rules for that kind of thing, simply due to customer demand/expectation.
Kevin notes this when he says (RUE 130):
...based on the multitude of fan comments, suggestions, pleas and requests sent to Palladium, it would seem many fans want rules like those in the pages to follow.

I still disagree. Your argument is based in logic, and don't get me wrong logic is cool I like logic but the problem is that just because something sounds logical dose not inherently make it true and that my friend is where your statement lies. Until KS says that he did not intend it to be that way your logic is deduction with out proof.
So at the end of the day and all points in between we (you and I) have simply interpreted the written material in different ways you don't have to except it but I am done

Again, if you feel that there is anything in the RMB that supports your assumptions, by all means present the quotes and I'll look them over.
If there is not anything in the RMB that you feel supports your assumptions, then perhaps those assumptions are not correct.
Although, I agree that you and I need not agree on this point; we are each free to hold to our own views.

Are you trying be condescending or are you just oblivious to how that would come across.
Like I said before you have read it if you don't see it thats on you

[Killer Cyborg]

If you don't feel that your evidence is worth presenting, then never mind.

[Snow Hawk]

If you don't feel that your evidence is worth presenting, then never mind.

Hear you go
MRB page 89 "the focus of their magic is the creation of magic devices"

MRB page 89 "many of these devices seem to only emulate existing magic and psionic abilities"

Key words are many and seem they make all the difference in the world

MRB page 90 "a techno-wizard is primarily interested in energy spells needed to power mystic devices. The wizard spends much of his time building and tinkering with new devices rather than seeking out new spells"

Now the key words hear are building and new.

And lets not forget the list of TW devices like Mystic power armour that I saw as examples not the be all to end all
so there you go you already new all that and disagree anyway but I wrote it for you all the same

[Eashamahel]

Actually, there is much better evidence than that, without getting out of the Techno-Wizard OCC to even explore related parts of the book.

If you don't feel that your evidence is worth presenting, then never mind.

Oh, if you wanted to look for evidence in the original Rulebook that indicates the Techno Wizards were capable of creating more than the listed and pre-made equipment, there's always a few parts of note in the Techno Wizard description that supports that.

To start, the note under Initial Spell Knowledge says that "Other spells can be used to create other devices. For example: Superior Invisibility can be used to create a vehichle or suit that can turn invisible." Now, there's no reason to assume this means you can make something new, because there are devices under the TW system that use invisibility, like the Invisibility Superiour (self) upgrade to body and power armour. A spell is listed, it has a use.

This starts to look like it might not be so clear cut though, when you read the Learning new spells section. The second sentence of that section reads "The techno-wizards are of interest will be first in energy spells, followed by physical manipulation that can be applied to devices, such as invisibility, armour of Ithan, fly, talisman, teleport, dimensional teleport, and related." Why is this important? Easy, read the spells. Invisibility? Check Armour of Ithan, fly? Yep, all there, but what about Talisman? Teleport? Dimensional Teleport? Well, it turns out not ONE of those spells shows up in the entire list of TW gear! That's right, the spells the Techno Wizard is supposed to be interested in them, because he can apply them to devices? They can't be applied to any devices. Or, more reasonably, none of the Pre-Made devices use them.

Now, a Techno Wizard can still CAST those spells (which, it is said, he is specifically interested in to empower devices) without a device, but of course takes the usual spell penalty whenever he casts a spell "rather than channeled through a TW device".


Interesting, no? So either the Techno Wizard is supposed to get spells for devices he can't use/make because they aren't listed, or "Other spells can be used to create other devices".

[kaid]

My other beef is that if you use all the rules for calcuating Base PPE Construction Cost you can get an unsolvable circular reference.

If you're talking about using the PPE construction cost to calculate the cost of storing additional energy (via diamonds or whatever), I've never bothered to figure that out. The first time I read it it seemed like I needed to pull out my calculus book and refresh my understanding of limit theory. I think I understand what was intended, but I'd have to look at it again to be certain.

--flatline

It isn't actually that bad but some gems are really cheap are attached to some very good spells so you can afford a really big high quality gem that drives the PPE cost down. This is one reason making a TW MDC armor repair gun is more efficient than casting the spell normally due to the gem needed is super cheap so you can get a really big high quality one.

Honestly I think the rules in the book are good enough guidelines there are some pretty huge negatives to your skill check trying to make a brand new design prototype. Chances are if you are trying to build something really wacky a low level techno wizard is just going to fail and spend a lot of money for no gain. Because of all the possibilities and to keep the rules from becoming even more of a calculus exercise a lot of it is an interplay of GM/techno wizard.

If a player says they want to build a TW world destroyer mk1 a GM is perfectly in their rights to either say no or make it require stuff that will be an adventure in its own right.

Half the fun of being a techno wizard is making weird inventions so you have to let the players at least have some fun making some weird stuff if they want to. Things like an anti gravity cloak is hard using a tech item but via a TW item there are actually quite a few ways to go about it via telekinesis/levitation/flight and some actual gravity manipulation spells.

My basic rule is if there is a spell to do it you can at very least make a TW item to mimic or utilize the effect. Where things get tricky and really expensive are things like the staves from the federation of magic book that contain multiple spell effects that can be activated. But given the creation costs of a prototype of one of these would run into the millions I don't think you are going to see any low level TW even make an attempt.


Edit

One thing I also wanted to mention is to comment on what somebody mentioned about the TW starting spells like dimension door. One thing to note is there are three ways to utilize a spell if you are a TW. First is to just cast it like a normal spell caster this has the penalties listed in the class write up. The second way is to channel the spell through an appropriate prop so say you want to cast dimensional door if you have a door or portal like opening handy you could cast your magic and channel it through that and cast the spell and not take any penalties. This also works with combat magic so if say you want to cast a fireball you can use a normal unmodified gun and use that to channel the magic without the penalties. The third way is to actually make a TW item that any spell caster can use.

A lot of people tend to forget that TW can use an appropriate item as a prop for channeling their magic without eating the penalties. The downside of the TW is they need props such as goggles for vision spells armor for armor spells and what not to cast without penalties.

[Killer Cyborg]

Actually, there is much better evidence than that, without getting out of the Techno-Wizard OCC to even explore related parts of the book.

If you don't feel that your evidence is worth presenting, then never mind.

Oh, if you wanted to look for evidence in the original Rulebook that indicates the Techno Wizards were capable of creating more than the listed and pre-made equipment, there's always a few parts of note in the Techno Wizard description that supports that.

Not that they can make stuff beyond the listed equipment, but that they can make stuff beyond the listed equipment that can use spells in new ways and forms, like how the TW Flaming Sword uses Fire Bolt to create a blade of flame, instead of a Fire Bolt.

To start, the note under Initial Spell Knowledge says that "Other spells can be used to create other devices. For example: Superior Invisibility can be used to create a vehichle or suit that can turn invisible." Now, there's no reason to assume this means you can make something new, because there are devices under the TW system that use invisibility, like the Invisibility Superiour (self) upgrade to body and power armour. A spell is listed, it has a use.

Yes; I used that example myself, as an illustration that the TW devices created by Techno-Wizards were as a rule intended simply to cast the spells, not to change them into new forms.
Invisibility is used in that example to turn the target invisible- not to make it intangible, or impervious to lasers, or anything else.

This starts to look like it might not be so clear cut though, when you read the Learning new spells section. The second sentence of that section reads "The techno-wizards are of interest will be first in energy spells, followed by physical manipulation that can be applied to devices, such as invisibility, armour of Ithan, fly, talisman, teleport, dimensional teleport, and related." Why is this important? Easy, read the spells. Invisibility? Check Armour of Ithan, fly? Yep, all there, but what about Talisman? Teleport? Dimensional Teleport? Well, it turns out not ONE of those spells shows up in the entire list of TW gear! That's right, the spells the Techno Wizard is supposed to be interested in them, because he can apply them to devices? They can't be applied to any devices. Or, more reasonably, none of the Pre-Made devices use them.

Actually, Invisibility and Armor of Ithan appear in the "Features that can be added to power and body armor" section.
The phrase "physical manipulation that can be applied to devices" doesn't necessarily mean "can be built into devices," although in some cases I agree that's the implications.
Fly and Talisman, for example, could simply be used to boost or temporarily enhance TW devices. A TW Laser Pistol that served as a Talisman, for example, would be a case where the spell was "applied to the device."

However, I do agree that the intent seems to be to build these features into the devices.
The only implication I get from that, though, is that it should be possible to build a TW Jetpack with the spell "Fly" built into it, or a TW Stargate that has Dimensional Portal built into it... not that the spells would manifest in any new ways.

Interesting, no?

Definitely interesting; thank you.

So either the Techno Wizard is supposed to get spells for devices he can't use/make because they aren't listed, or "Other spells can be used to create other devices".

Yes, but the ability to make new devices that can simply cast spells as-is was never really in question. It was their ability to create new, original items that use spells in non-traditional ways.
If you notice, my original response was about the balance of the old rules compared to the new rules, and it contains a comment that balance was inherent in the old system, because you couldn't do anything really different with a TW device (that your PC invented) that you couldn't do just by casting the spell.
Unlike the new rules, where you could use Invisibility: Superior in order to allow yourself to walk through walls... as long as your GM agrees to it.

[Eashamahel]

Yes; I used that example myself, as an illustration that the TW devices created by Techno-Wizards were as a rule intended simply to cast the spells, not to change them into new forms.
Invisibility is used in that example to turn the target invisible- not to make it intangible, or impervious to lasers, or anything else.

This starts to look like it might not be so clear cut though, when you read the Learning new spells section. The second sentence of that section reads "The techno-wizards are of interest will be first in energy spells, followed by physical manipulation that can be applied to devices, such as invisibility, armour of Ithan, fly, talisman, teleport, dimensional teleport, and related." Why is this important? Easy, read the spells. Invisibility? Check Armour of Ithan, fly? Yep, all there, but what about Talisman? Teleport? Dimensional Teleport? Well, it turns out not ONE of those spells shows up in the entire list of TW gear! That's right, the spells the Techno Wizard is supposed to be interested in them, because he can apply them to devices? They can't be applied to any devices. Or, more reasonably, none of the Pre-Made devices use them.

Actually, Invisibility and Armor of Ithan appear in the "Features that can be added to power and body armor" section.

Er, I think you might have just missed what I said:

Why is this important? Easy, read the spells. Invisibility? Check Armour of Ithan, fly? Yep, all there, but what about Talisman? Teleport? Dimensional Teleport? Well, it turns out not ONE of those spells shows up in the entire list of TW gear!

I was discussing how some of the spells, such as Invisibility, Armour of Ithan and Fly are all there in the spell list and as options for additions to armour/power armour, ect, but how the later spells did not appear in any pre-made device. Sorry if this wasn't clear.

However, I do agree that the intent seems to be to build these features into the devices.
The only implication I get from that, though, is that it should be possible to build a TW Jetpack with the spell "Fly" built into it, or a TW Stargate that has Dimensional Portal built into it... not that the spells would manifest in any new ways.

Except of course for the two or three examples of gear where the spells work in different ways.

Yes, but the ability to make new devices that can simply cast spells as-is was never really in question. It was their ability to create new, original items that use spells in non-traditional ways.

Indeed, TW Intangible Armour using Invisibility is definately a leap, as there is no spell to support that. Now, TW Armour of Intangibility using Mystic Portal is hard to argue against, as it's just as valid as a TW Stargate, or any other non-pre-set piece of TW gear (though I never actually thought of it before now!), since it's just a spell doing what it does built into equipment. Though now I want to use Create Magic Scroll, Telepathy and a few others to make a printer that will just print off magic scrolls... Still hard to beat the Ironwood Wood Planer though...

Then you get into later book pieces of equipment, say Vampire Kingdoms, and it gets really murky.

For instance, TW Storm Flairs seem perfectly reasonable after reading the above, seeing as how they use a real spell (Summon and Control Rain), just like Globe of Daylight Flairs (with, er, Globe of Daylight). So now there's little argument you can use on your PCs as to why they can make two of the TW Items (one of which is one of the most expensive TW items in the book) which don't have a system to make them, and not the others (say, water pistols, or the backpack sprinkler system, man I love that thing!). Then again, if you can summon a storm, maybe you can use that in a non-traditional way to make a water pistol? Probably with Energy Bolt to make it fire... Back to Roleplaying again!

Aaaaaanyways.... I have found very few items in later books that aren't easily replicatable into items, but few of them work exactly like the spells, and this is especially true in Federation of Magic with the new guns.

(It should be noted that the last sentance there is in relation to human TW gear, lots of alien TW gear in the books doesn't seem to use any known spells.)

[Killer Cyborg]

Indeed, TW Intangible Armour using Invisibility is definately a leap, as there is no spell to support that. Now, TW Armour of Intangibility using Mystic Portal is hard to argue against, as it's just as valid as a TW Stargate, or any other non-pre-set piece of TW gear (though I never actually thought of it before now!), since it's just a spell doing what it does built into equipment. Though now I want to use Create Magic Scroll, Telepathy and a few others to make a printer that will just print off magic scrolls... Still hard to beat the Ironwood Wood Planer though...

I'd say that what you could do, was simply have armor that you could pump PPE into in order to cast Mystic Portal.
Which would let you pass through walls, depending on how you cast it... but I wouldn't count it as intangibility.

Aaaaaanyways.... I have found very few items in later books that aren't easily replicatable into items, but few of them work exactly like the spells, and this is especially true in Federation of Magic with the new guns.

For me, the items from FoM that offended my sensibilities most were the swords.
One includes the spell Speed Weapon, which specifies in the spell description that it cannot be used on magic weapons.
Another uses the spell Invulnerability, but not to actually cast the spell itself- the effects are much closer to the Major Super Power for a short duration.

(It should be noted that the last sentance there is in relation to human TW gear, lots of alien TW gear in the books doesn't seem to use any known spells.)

Which I think actually makes sense.
Somebody should write up some really ALIEN spells sometime...
Like "Scents to Snakes," or something that humans wouldn't really think of.

[Mack]

My other beef is that if you use all the rules for calcuating Base PPE Construction Cost you can get an unsolvable circular reference.

If you're talking about using the PPE construction cost to calculate the cost of storing additional energy (via diamonds or whatever), I've never bothered to figure that out. The first time I read it it seemed like I needed to pull out my calculus book and refresh my understanding of limit theory. I think I understand what was intended, but I'd have to look at it again to be certain.

Yes, that's what I'm referring to. Whenever I create a TW item, I prefer to include enough PPE storage for at least one activation. That allows the user to perserve their own PPE for other uses, and it allows me to shameless promote and sell the item to just about anyone.

If you include the "1% per PPE stored" penalty to Base PPE Construction Cost, then you have to arbitrarily pick how much PPE is stored instead of calculating as # of Activations multiplied by the Activation PPE. (It also chaps my hide that that part of the formula isn't included in the section on Base PPE Construction Cost.)

[Eashamahel]

[quote="Killer Cyborg"]
I'd say that what you could do, was simply have armor that you could pump PPE into in order to cast Mystic Portal.
Which would let you pass through walls, depending on how you cast it... but I wouldn't count it as intangibility.
[quote]

Indeed, that was what I meant, the passing through walls/barriers. Pass through people/become truly intangible? Just be a Psi-Ghost!
Remember though, that if you are going to be casting a spell through armour that "There will always be some sort of addition to the device that symbolizes the mystic power." Wonder what would be reasonable for the ability to pass through walls?

[quote="Killer Cyborg"]
For me, the items from FoM that offended my sensibilities most were the swords.
[quote]

I seem to remember that there was a note about those that they required some type of secret incantations? Maybe I am way off. Yeah, they were pretty, er... wild. Random magic swords that make Rune Weapons look like junk in comparison.

[quote="Killer Cyborg"]
Which I think actually makes sense.
Somebody should write up some really ALIEN spells sometime...
Like "Scents to Snakes," or something that humans wouldn't really think of.[quote]

Why would you need that, when we ALREADY have the legendarily good Swords to Snakes spell...

[Killer Cyborg]

Indeed, that was what I meant, the passing through walls/barriers. Pass through people/become truly intangible? Just be a Psi-Ghost!

Cool; same page there, then.

Remember though, that if you are going to be casting a spell through armour that "There will always be some sort of addition to the device that symbolizes the mystic power." Wonder what would be reasonable for the ability to pass through walls?

Hm.
Part of an X-Ray machine?
Part of a door?
Not sure.

Random magic swords that make Rune Weapons look like junk in comparison.

Right.
And IF they made a really, really big deal out of it... if they wrote up some kind of, "This Techno-Wizardry has surpassed even Rune Magic, and even the Gods are startled into taking notice of this, perhaps even coming down at some point and interfering," then that'd be one thing.
But no, it was just "Hey, here's some powerful toys."

Which I think actually makes sense.
Somebody should write up some really ALIEN spells sometime...
Like "Scents to Snakes," or something that humans wouldn't really think of.

Why would you need that, when we ALREADY have the legendarily good Swords to Snakes spell...

Not everybody has swords?
Mostly, though, for flavor.

[Hot Rod]

If your PCs cannot make anything they couldn't buy faster, why allow the class as a PC?

If you want the TW to spend years in his basement studying how to make particle beams, You need to tell the PC that before they make that class. I don't believe that was the intent of the class at all. Tinkering, upgrading, etc... like a magic using Operator with a more limited audience. (I don't subscribe to the non mages/psychics can use TW weapons if the weapon has its own PPE battery/clip, if you can't use your own PPE you can't use stored PPE. Exceptonal situations like Arzno where the militia is trained from youth to control PPE and sometimes keep it once grown...)

HR

[Nightmask]

If your PCs cannot make anything they couldn't buy faster, why allow the class as a PC?

If you want the TW to spend years in his basement studying how to make particle beams, You need to tell the PC that before they make that class. I don't believe that was the intent of the class at all. Tinkering, upgrading, etc... like a magic using Operator with a more limited audience. (I don't subscribe to the non mages/psychics can use TW weapons if the weapon has its own PPE battery/clip, if you can't use your own PPE you can't use stored PPE. Exceptonal situations like Arzno where the militia is trained from youth to control PPE and sometimes keep it once grown...)

HR

So if you can't manipulate electricity you shouldn't be able to use a laser rifle, even though it's got a fully charged E-clip? Because that sounds just as logical as 'if you can't manipulate PPE you shouldn't be able to use even a fully charged PPE-clip equipped weapon', meaning it doesn't sound logical at all. You can hand a non-mage a scroll or magical talisman and he can make use of it just fine even if he's from an anti-magic society and upbringing so why would it matter that now it's a PPE-clip that's holding the PPE and powering a TW-device instead of a pure magic item like a scroll (just writing on paper) or a Talisman (not even that).

[Killer Cyborg]

If your PCs cannot make anything they couldn't buy faster, why allow the class as a PC?

I'm thinking that you're missing the point of terms like "original," "invention," and "innovation."
Or maybe I'm misunderstanding your post.

If you want the TW to spend years in his basement studying how to make particle beams, You need to tell the PC that before they make that class. I don't believe that was the intent of the class at all. Tinkering, upgrading, etc... like a magic using Operator with a more limited audience. (I don't subscribe to the non mages/psychics can use TW weapons if the weapon has its own PPE battery/clip, if you can't use your own PPE you can't use stored PPE. Exceptonal situations like Arzno where the militia is trained from youth to control PPE and sometimes keep it once grown...)

HR

Before RUE, there were no rules for Operators upgrading anything.
I think that it would be reasonable if an Operator wanted to take an existing railgun that he purchased, and add it to an existing robot that reasonably had room... but designing his own new railgun with original (superior) stats, or upgrading an existing railgun to boost the damage or range... I don't think that was part of the original vision.

[Razzinold]

As a GM I would allow a player who was a Techno Wizard to invent the own devices combining spells (and having the objects work in way other then the spell intended). Why limit their imagination, it seems a logical step in the techno wizard progression (at least to me) that they would be able to create things like that. I had a GM once who let a player that was a Nazca (sp?) Line Drawer start to develop their own version of magic tattoos. It took the player a long time of playing (he didn't let him start the game with the ability) and he actually never fully realized his goal before the game came to a halt, but the fact that he took a known ability and tried to expand upon it was pretty cool (IMO).

Why limit them?
Because I'm a simulationist when it comes to gaming, not just a fluffer for other people's fantasies.

So you have the game mimic 'real life' ? PC's are supposed to be above the norm and be able to do amazing things. I'm not saying that they can build 100 new inventions whenever they feel like it, but I don't see why they can't invent new things if they donate enough game time to accomplish it (either on screen or off).

Same reason why I don't just let PCs win the lotto when they want to.

IMO this isn't a really good comparison. There is no skill involved when winning the lottery, but there is skill involved when trying to accomplish things in your chose career, regardless what it is.

Same reason why I don't let every Body Fixer come up with the new cure for Cancer*
Same reason why I don't let just every Rogue Scholar find the Holy Grail.

Maybe not cure cancer, that's more of research position (but I get your point), but I would allow them to make amazing above the norm life saving operations that a NPC wouldn't necessarily be able to do.

Which isn't to say that I'd never let any of them do that kind of thing... but it'd be the focus of a campaign, or at least a major plot point, not a something that you can do in your off-time, and NOT something that you should expect to be able to do, just because you've picked the loose career path that could potentially lead to that thing, someday, if you're lucky.

I wouldn't make it the main part of the campaign but I wouldn't allow them to build a major invention off screen in between sessions. I would allow them to work on it in between sessions but they would still have to do work/research/gem finding during active game play as well.


*okay, cancer has been cured by the Coalition already. So just replace that with whatever disease still exists on that same level.[/quote]


*I know this subject was now been discussed at length but I still want to way in. I've been sick the last few days so I haven't had a chance to respond until now.*

[Killer Cyborg]

Why limit them?
Because I'm a simulationist when it comes to gaming, not just a fluffer for other people's fantasies.

So you have the game mimic 'real life' ?

No... just realistic results of the if/then scenarios being explored.

PC's are supposed to be above the norm and be able to do amazing things. I'm not saying that they can build 100 new inventions whenever they feel like it, but I don't see why they can't invent new things if they donate enough game time to accomplish it (either on screen or off).

Sure, or win the lottery.
But I don't see why they should be expected to.

Same reason why I don't just let PCs win the lotto when they want to.

IMO this isn't a really good comparison. There is no skill involved when winning the lottery, but there is skill involved when trying to accomplish things in your chose career, regardless what it is.

]

Actually, there IS some skill in winning the lottery, depending on how you do it.
But, more importantly, there's one hell of a lot of LUCK in inventing new things.

Same reason why I don't let every Body Fixer come up with the new cure for Cancer*
Same reason why I don't let just every Rogue Scholar find the Holy Grail.

Maybe not cure cancer, that's more of research position (but I get your point), but I would allow them to make amazing above the norm life saving operations that a NPC wouldn't necessarily be able to do.

Why?

[Shark_Force]

Now, has Palladium ever published spell design rules?

as a matter of fact, yes.

of course, you have to go to a completely different setting, not one of palladium's more well-known ones, in fact: nightbane (aka nightspawn, depending on how much eternally burning hatred towards todd mcfarlane fills your soul)

the reference: Nightbane World Book Three: Through the Glass Darkly, page 37-39.

they aren't super-comprehensive. but they do exist.

(actually, the nightbane books in general make pretty good references for assorted rules... if you want to actually have a reasonable amount of information on the astral plane, for example, i don't think there's a better place to look atm than the nightbane books...)

[Killer Cyborg]

Good post, Chan.

Same reason why I don't let every Body Fixer come up with the new cure for Cancer*
Same reason why I don't let just every Rogue Scholar find the Holy Grail.

Maybe not cure cancer, that's more of research position (but I get your point), but I would allow them to make amazing above the norm life saving operations that a NPC wouldn't necessarily be able to do.

Why?

That's easy: Because it's usually more interesting--at least to the PCs--if a PC does it instead of if an NPC does it.

It's a way of looking at what the game does.

Realistically, the percentage of folk who do cool stuff is very small. That means, in a role-playing game, you have three choices: Either A) you aren't in that tiny percentage that does cool stuff, B) you are in that tiny percentage that does cool stuff, or C) you might be in that tiny percentage that does cool stuff maybe.

A lot of people really, really like A--that hits them in their realism guts. That's old school, let's-create-a-dozen-characters-and-see-which-one-lives, let's-study-real-life-military-tactics-and-apply-them-to-superheroes kind of stuff, and that's totally valid as long as players are made aware beforehand that PCs are traveling down a well-worn path: hundreds of thousands of operators and techno-wizards and shifters and headhunters and infinity-plus-one other things have come before, and the PCs are nothing special. They are a type; that doesn't make them unimportant and it doesn't make them uninteresting but it does make them, for the most part, predictable--they possess only so many options, the universe has seen them all, and the universe can smell their crap from a mile away.

I'm fine with people doing cool stuff.
I just think that "cool stuff" doesn't have to be one-in-a-million unique.

I can see KC's point: from a seriously literal reading of Rifts--not Ultimate Edition, but actual Rifts (the latest copyright on my edition is 1990, so I'm pretty sure it's first printing)--it really doesn't say that inventing actual devices is possible ("The wizard spends much of his time building and tinkering with new devices..." (90) can be read as new meaning just built instead of groundbreaking), but when 1990s me saw the techno-wizard--a character whose whole schtick was making magic items--, I was pumped. A class-and-level system that supported gadgeteers? Awesome. I would've been deeply disappointed to have walked into a KC game with my techno-wizard and been told, "Yeah, those lists in the book? They're exhaustive. You can only make that stuff."

Actually, if I ever had a player who had a Techno-Wizard, and they had wanted to invent something new, I'd have worked with them on it, as long as it made sense to me.
I'm okay with going beyond the rules at times- I just think it's important to know what the rules are.

The problem with that reading is the publication in later books of additional techno-wizard material. What I think KC's saying is that techno-wizards--collectively--use off-the-shelf plans, and until those plans are published, inventing items isn't even an option because inventing is the domain of NPCs who get lucky and are part of the tiny percentage which you, dear player-character, are certainly not. (He'd probably phrase it differently, though.)

So, like a wizard can't cast an unknown spell, a techno-wizard can't build an unknown device.

Pretty much.

I'll buy into that, although I find it frustrating and limiting the (unstated, unofficial, but implied) potential of the PC techno-wizard to make phobia grenades, spraypaint cans full of wards, and oracle pills, but if the GM's told me when the game started, "You're one of many millions of techno-wizards, and these are your limits, and pushing them's a waste of time," that's, at least, fair, and, if not, honest.

Well, again, if somebody wanted to revolve their campaign around esoteric metaphysical research instead of adventure, I could work with that.
But that's not what people want to do.
They want to adventure all the time AND constantly come up with new inventions that the rest of the world somehow failed to discover.
Which gets far too far into Mary Sue territory for my liking.

[Shark_Force]

oh, bargaining is i think supposed to be handled with pure RP. i don't think it even *discusses* learning spells by bargaining with demons in a mechanical context (in a non-mechanical context, there is essentially a "priest" of the night lords, and those people bartered for their power with the night lords, but no actual description of the process is given. i imagine it largely depends on the night lord in question... and i also imagine kevin doesn't particularly enjoy writing about torture, murdering innocents, etc sufficiently to ever even begin to detail exactly what bartering with a demon entails enough for us to ever actually get that information).

but in any event, unless you're a witch or making a pact like the shifter, i think learning spells from a demon generally consists of them teaching it to you just like if you were learning it from another magician, except that while another magician might accept gold or credits or magical items or spell knowledge or helping them out with something, a demon will probably require you to do horrible evil things to earn the spell knowledge they offer. oh, perhaps not at first... maybe they'll start with killing someone who committed a horrible crime (unknown to you, probably reformed), and gradually work their way towards getting you to knowingly commit horrible crimes yourself.