Psychic vs. Mind Master and Kinetic

[MurderCityDisciple]

One of my players is running a regular psychic and is having power issues....the books gives him 1D4X10 ISP plus 10 per level, I think he caps out around 70.

Well anyway he just got to level four and chose Pyrokinesis as his new skill (hoping to pick up something offensive). Having only 80 ISP and a fireball costing 25 makes him again..very limited.

Looking though Between the Shadows both the 'Mind Master' and 'Kinetic' get way more potential ISP (2D6X10 plus 3D4/level and 2D4X10+10 plus 2d6/level).

How come the regular psychic gets the crappy end of the stick?

Both other classes will get more ISP at level 1 than he would at 4.

[Nightmask]

Because science fiction writers, including game book writers, have no sense of scale. Same thing happens with the Gizmoteer class vs the Psi-Tech. The Psi-Tech has far more ISP available even though it's the Gizmoteer that engages in activities most requiring ISP and logically should have the higher ISP growth rate and total.

[MurderCityDisciple]

Because science fiction writers, including game book writers, have no sense of scale. Same thing happens with the Gizmoteer class vs the Psi-Tech. The Psi-Tech has far more ISP available even though it's the Gizmoteer that engages in activities most requiring ISP and logically should have the higher ISP growth rate and total.

I was wondering if maybe there was some errata addressing the deficiency somewhere.

Otherwise me being lord of my own domain, aka my game, I shall just boost the ISP levels to where I like em. Broken rules are meant to be fixed...it's all about fun and enjoyment, not drone-like adherence to the rules.

[Nightmask]

Because science fiction writers, including game book writers, have no sense of scale. Same thing happens with the Gizmoteer class vs the Psi-Tech. The Psi-Tech has far more ISP available even though it's the Gizmoteer that engages in activities most requiring ISP and logically should have the higher ISP growth rate and total.

I was wondering if maybe there was some errata addressing the deficiency somewhere.

Otherwise me being lord of my own domain, aka my game, I shall just boost the ISP levels to where I like em. Broken rules are meant to be fixed...it's all about fun and enjoyment, not drone-like adherence to the rules.

Careful, speaking such heresy shall get you ex-communicated for your blasphemy if the True Believers see that.

[MurderCityDisciple]

Because science fiction writers, including game book writers, have no sense of scale. Same thing happens with the Gizmoteer class vs the Psi-Tech. The Psi-Tech has far more ISP available even though it's the Gizmoteer that engages in activities most requiring ISP and logically should have the higher ISP growth rate and total.

I was wondering if maybe there was some errata addressing the deficiency somewhere.

Otherwise me being lord of my own domain, aka my game, I shall just boost the ISP levels to where I like em. Broken rules are meant to be fixed...it's all about fun and enjoyment, not drone-like adherence to the rules.

Careful, speaking such heresy shall get you ex-communicated for your blasphemy if the True Believers see that.

Then I shall have to be the Anton LaVey of gaming....

[mastermesh]

Just give him a nice little 'toy' that boosts him up to where you want him to be.... I always liked using special items that give different powers and things in Heroes and Ninjas games. Could work for NB games as well... Headband that doubles ISP, a ring that has superpowers (use heroes mystically bestowed type stuff... when the PC kills the mystically bestowed, he can loot the body or whatever... if that's too much against alignment, perhaps the mystically bestowed is a great uncle that has kicked the bucket and the item is in the will.)

[MurderCityDisciple]

Just give him a nice little 'toy' that boosts him up to where you want him to be.... I always liked using special items that give different powers and things in Heroes and Ninjas games. Could work for NB games as well... Headband that doubles ISP, a ring that has superpowers (use heroes mystically bestowed type stuff... when the PC kills the mystically bestowed, he can loot the body or whatever... if that's too much against alignment, perhaps the mystically bestowed is a great uncle that has kicked the bucket and the item is in the will.)

There is a Cybermage in my game....maybe a still living, Turbo-brain in a backpack with a few leads going up to the psychic's head. Hum....I love the whole Frankenstein aspect of the cybermage class.

[Shark_Force]

i don't think it's likely entirely deliberate, as such, but i suspect in a manner of speaking it is.

more specifically, it's the nightbane game. there are others in the world, but it really is somewhat focused on the nightbane. a human psychic is simply not *intended* to be on the same power level as a nightbane.

that said, i'm not sure they really thought it through entirely; even with double or more ISP, the human psychic likely wouldn't compare favorably to the vast majority of nightbane. even the ones who don't get hundreds of SDC and don't have lots of PPE still get access to talents, supernatural PS, extremely high healing rates, and much more powerful abilities that cost a heck of a lot less, imo.

so go ahead and just boost your psychic, is what i would say.

[MurderCityDisciple]

i don't think it's likely entirely deliberate, as such, but i suspect in a manner of speaking it is.

more specifically, it's the nightbane game. there are others in the world, but it really is somewhat focused on the nightbane. a human psychic is simply not *intended* to be on the same power level as a nightbane.

that said, i'm not sure they really thought it through entirely; even with double or more ISP, the human psychic likely wouldn't compare favorably to the vast majority of nightbane. even the ones who don't get hundreds of SDC and don't have lots of PPE still get access to talents, supernatural PS, extremely high healing rates, and much more powerful abilities that cost a heck of a lot less, imo.

so go ahead and just boost your psychic, is what i would say.

True.
A psychic is going to get pounded like Richard Simmons at a biker rally when it comes to fighting toe to toe with a Nightbane, Hound or Vampire.

But.

The psychic's Bio-manipulation blindness zapping at -9 to strike, dodge and parry makes them prime de-buffers. Making the heavy hitters jobs mopping up so much more easier. Also having 6th Sense means the group can never be ambushed. Psychics are wonderful to have around.

[GaredBattlespike]

One of my players is running a regular psychic and is having power issues....the books gives him 1D4X10 ISP plus 10 per level, I think he caps out around 70.

Well anyway he just got to level four and chose Pyrokinesis as his new skill (hoping to pick up something offensive). Having only 80 ISP and a fireball costing 25 makes him again..very limited.

Looking though Between the Shadows both the 'Mind Master' and 'Kinetic' get way more potential ISP (2D6X10 plus 3D4/level and 2D4X10+10 plus 2d6/level).

How come the regular psychic gets the crappy end of the stick?

Both other classes will get more ISP at level 1 than he would at 4.

Greetings!

It is a matter of Specialist being REALLY good at their specialty VS a Generalist who can do a good bit of everything.

The Mind Master and the Astral Lord both suffer the same flaw: NO HEALER CATAGORY POWERS!

That's right! No Healing Touch to help out other Party Members or NPC's and no Bio-Regeneration Power to self-Heal (Exception: Mind Masters may choose Bio-Regeneration [Superior] as on of thier Master Catagory Powers, but it's not available to the Astral Lord at all).

The 'Kinetic has NO SENSITIVE CATAGORY POWERS!!! A Psychic without any Extra Sensory Abilities at all! No See Aura. No Sense Evil and no Presence Sense = a vulnerable target of covert ops by enemies! A 'Kinetic will NOT have any easy way of knowing that his favorite NPC has been replaced by a Ba'al Minion (Doppleganger or worse: Ashmedai !!!) before it can do terrible things like gather real useful info on the PC group to set them all up to be taken at their 'hiding' place. All this because this brand of Psychic has no ESP type abilities. Great in a fight, not so much outside one...

The base book Psychic P.C.C. has no restrictions beyond needing to be at least 3rd Level before gaining any Master Catagory Powers (at Levels 3th, 5th, 8th, 11th, & 14th ). In exchange: an I.S.P. Base that is about 1/3rd of the others-except Astral Lords who have asimilar I.S.P. Base AND are also limited in Catagory selection AND need to spend I.S.P. Base on "reconfiguring" items like clothing to wear in the Astral Plane.

With these glaring weaknesses, I actually chose NOT to play either a Mind Master nor an Astral Lord (my original 1st choice of Psionic Character Class). I will not seriously concider a 'Kinetic as a PC, but if I Ran a Campaign, I think that it would make a decent NPC ally.

It all is a matter of style and need. If the Party I am in had aomeone who could Heal by Magic or Psionic means, then I would really concider the Astral Lord or Mind Master. As it is: I AM the Party Healer with Healing Touch for the others and Bio-Regeneration [Healer Catagory] for me!

Thank you for your time.

[Nightmask]

One of my players is running a regular psychic and is having power issues....the books gives him 1D4X10 ISP plus 10 per level, I think he caps out around 70.

Well anyway he just got to level four and chose Pyrokinesis as his new skill (hoping to pick up something offensive). Having only 80 ISP and a fireball costing 25 makes him again..very limited.

Looking though Between the Shadows both the 'Mind Master' and 'Kinetic' get way more potential ISP (2D6X10 plus 3D4/level and 2D4X10+10 plus 2d6/level).

How come the regular psychic gets the crappy end of the stick?

Both other classes will get more ISP at level 1 than he would at 4.

Greetings!

It is a matter of Specialist being REALLY good at their specialty VS a Generalist who can do a good bit of everything.

The Mind Master and the Astral Lord both suffer the same flaw: NO HEALER CATAGORY POWERS!

That's right! No Healing Touch to help out other Party Members or NPC's and no Bio-Regeneration Power to self-Heal (Exception: Mind Masters may choose Bio-Regeneration [Superior] as on of thier Master Catagory Powers, but it's not available to the Astral Lord at all).

The 'Kinetic has NO SENSITIVE CATAGORY POWERS!!! A Psychic without any Extra Sensory Abilities at all! No See Aura. No Sense Evil and no Presence Sense = a vulnerable target of covert ops by enemies! A 'Kinetic will NOT have any easy way of knowing that his favorite NPC has been replaced by a Ba'al Minion (Doppleganger or worse: Ashmedai !!!) before it can do terrible things like gather real useful info on the PC group to set them all up to be taken at their 'hiding' place. All this because this brand of Psychic has no ESP type abilities. Great in a fight, not so much outside one...

The base book Psychic P.C.C. has no restrictions beyond needing to be at least 3rd Level before gaining any Master Catagory Powers (at Levels 3th, 5th, 8th, 11th, & 14th ). In exchange: an I.S.P. Base that is about 1/3rd of the others-except Astral Lords who have asimilar I.S.P. Base AND are also limited in Catagory selection AND need to spend I.S.P. Base on "reconfiguring" items like clothing to wear in the Astral Plane.

With these glaring weaknesses, I actually chose NOT to play either a Mind Master nor an Astral Lord (my original 1st choice of Psionic Character Class). I will not seriously concider a 'Kinetic as a PC, but if I Ran a Campaign, I think that it would make a decent NPC ally.

It all is a matter of style and need. If the Party I am in had aomeone who could Heal by Magic or Psionic means, then I would really concider the Astral Lord or Mind Master. As it is: I AM the Party Healer with Healing Touch for the others and Bio-Regeneration [Healer Catagory] for me!

Thank you for your time.

Well the Astral Lord is expected to be permanently losing ISP over time as it 'astrally configures' items to travel with it while astrally projecting. Other OCC don't have to worry about using up precious ISP like that (and not having access to the Healing category isn't so bothersome as to be reason enough to jack up the ISP available to make up for it). Plus the Astral Lord can create an entire pocket dimension, one where he can give himself a range of powers and abilities, including healing abilities. So impressively powerful.

[Armorlord]

One of my players is running a regular psychic and is having power issues....the books gives him 1D4X10 ISP plus 10 per level, I think he caps out around 70.

Well anyway he just got to level four and chose Pyrokinesis as his new skill (hoping to pick up something offensive). Having only 80 ISP and a fireball costing 25 makes him again..very limited.

Looking though Between the Shadows both the 'Mind Master' and 'Kinetic' get way more potential ISP (2D6X10 plus 3D4/level and 2D4X10+10 plus 2d6/level).

How come the regular psychic gets the crappy end of the stick?

Both other classes will get more ISP at level 1 than he would at 4.

I guess I am misreading something here, because is sounds like the complaint is that the less powerful class has less power than the more powerful class that has more power than it.

If you really feel he should have more raw power, or that he needs it for the stuff you'll throw at him, convert his character over to full fledged Pyrokinetic PCC, write off any conflicting powers "as burned away as his mind opened up to his true destiny, allowing him to tap into his full inner strength in the process". Let him kick ass and chew the gum it that's what you want out of him.

Regular psychic gets the crappy end of the stick because it is the crappy end of the stick. Everything else is more advanced versions, save for the Astral Junkie who is the crap on that end of said stick.

[MurderCityDisciple]

One of my players is running a regular psychic and is having power issues....the books gives him 1D4X10 ISP plus 10 per level, I think he caps out around 70.

Well anyway he just got to level four and chose Pyrokinesis as his new skill (hoping to pick up something offensive). Having only 80 ISP and a fireball costing 25 makes him again..very limited.

Looking though Between the Shadows both the 'Mind Master' and 'Kinetic' get way more potential ISP (2D6X10 plus 3D4/level and 2D4X10+10 plus 2d6/level).

How come the regular psychic gets the crappy end of the stick?

Both other classes will get more ISP at level 1 than he would at 4.

I guess I am misreading something here, because is sounds like the complaint is that the less powerful class has less power than the more powerful class that has more power than it.

If you really feel he should have more raw power, or that he needs it for the stuff you'll throw at him, convert his character over to full fledged Pyrokinetic PCC, write off any conflicting powers "as burned away as his mind opened up to his true destiny, allowing him to tap into his full inner strength in the process". Let him kick ass and chew the gum it that's what you want out of him.

Regular psychic gets the crappy end of the stick because it is the crappy end of the stick. Everything else is more advanced versions, save for the Astral Junkie who is the crap on that end of said stick.

Enough with at the stick crapping!

Yeah I know I started it.

It's my game...I will tweaketh it. 'nuf said...thanks for the wonderful responses.

[TechnoGothic]

I just port over Fantasy's Mind Mages for a Psychic with more power, or the Natural Psychic from HU2.

[GaredBattlespike]

Greetings!

As expected; Technogothic has the right of it again.

There are a few different levels of Power for Psychics;

Lowest/Weakest) Minor Psionics: 2 Powers from one lesser catagory, EVER, and few ISP.

Moderate Power) Equal to either Major Psionics as per Rifts, or a Pandora Psychic Agent PCC or similar Class.

Middle Power) Psychic PCC from Nightbane Main Book, or equivalent; Mind Master, 'Kinetic and Astral Lord PCC's. I put these all together because those with more ISP have less choices for Powers and the Astral Lord has so very few ISP that, as a Psychic, he/she has little Power-especially outside the Astral Plane.

High Power) Mind Mage from Palladium Fantasy, or the Mind Melter from Rifts-especially from the RUE as it is VERY Powerful.

COSMIC) Achillies Neo-Human RCC from Rifts WB 9: South America 2. VAST Psionic Powers, better attributes and an ever increasing lifespan (Maximum age = ISP X 3, if I rember correctly). I believe that I had guestimated one NPC's maximum age as 1,500 YEARS OLD !!!

So talk to your group and decide wich is the best fit for your group. A Neo-Human can take on a Nightprince one-on-one, and a Minor Psionic is just another OCC with a touch of Psi Power.
Technogothic seems right when he reccomends the Mind Mage from Palladium Fantasy as it's potent, but not moreso than a well-rolled Nightbane or Nightbane Sorcerer/Mystic.

[Jedrious]

Keep in mind you need to balance the games power level as a GM, its your fault if everything is too difficult or your players roll over every challenge you give them.

This is why its important to talk to your players about what they want to play and to give them options and suggestions.

I think a normal psychic works wonders in a lower power NIghtbane game, also keep in mind that in the palladium system Psionics/Magic are more support oriented roles unless you do some major changes to the core system rules since for some reason the designers didnt intend for you to use your powers alot or exclusivly.

As a example in Rifts more often, Nightbane not so much I see Psychics and Mages burn through all their ISP/PPE in a single fight and still may not even be wining it yet.

I hope you find a solution that works best for you and your players, to keep a element of challenge and entertainment.

In Nightbane specifically, the Psychics and Mages are supportive characters at best, the focus of the Nightbane setting is of course the Nightbane themselves

EDIT: Edited by NMI

[drewkitty ~..~]

One of my players is running a regular psychic and is having power issues....the books gives him 1D4X10 ISP plus 10 per level, I think he caps out around 70. ...snip

OoCPOV)You might just let the "the psychic" char develop into a Mind Master. depending on how you do it you would ether freeze the skills till he made the skills level if you do it as a mod. Or if you do it like a formal changing of class the old skills are frozen and pick skills for the new class

Because science fiction writers, including game book writers, have no sense of scale. Same thing happens with the Gizmoteer class vs the Psi-Tech. ...snip

MN forgot to distinguish that you were talking about the (psi) Gizmoteer RCC from RSA2 the Gizmoteers in N&S. (Just making a fact checker statement. Nothing you need to get upset about.)
However, the reason the Psi-Tech have more ISP is that they burn it off Permanently to build stuff. The Psi-gizmoteers do not.

Broken rules are meant to be fixed...it's all about fun and enjoyment, not drone-like adherence to the rules.

Completely agree with you. Unfortunately KS and crew are deliberately making more broken rules, and not fixing them.

[Nightmask]

Because science fiction writers, including game book writers, have no sense of scale. Same thing happens with the Gizmoteer class vs the Psi-Tech. ...snip

NM forgot to distinguish that you were talking about the (psi) Gizmoteer RCC from RSA2 the Gizmoteers in N&S. (Just making a fact checker statement. Nothing you need to get upset about.)
However, the reason the Psi-Tech have more ISP is that they burn it off Permanently to build stuff. The Psi-gizmoteers do not.

Unless they've rewritten the Psi-Tech or you're thinking of a different OCC (Like the Psi-MECHANIC) the Psi-Tech doesn't burn off ISP building anything. They have all the tech-oriented psi-powers, some special psi-powers, and gain more psi-powers as they advance in level without any permanent loss of ISP for anything. They're a better choice in some ways than a regular psychic since they can pick up most other psi-powers as they level up.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I was thinking of the Psi-mech. And they burn off PPE.

Psi tech, from what I read, when they do tinker with things, only get the best out of things cause they've tund them better.

[MurderCityDisciple]

.....

As a example in Rifts more often, Nightbane not so much I see Psychics and Mages burn through all their ISP/PPE in a single fight and still may not even be wining it yet.

I hope you find a solution that works best for you and your players, to keep a element of challenge and entertainment.

Oh my game is very entertaining and challenging....I just felt my poor psychic friend was lacking a bit of punch. I punched him up and it's going smooth.

The Palladium ruleset was born to be tinkered with, I've gotten over bickering about this rule and that rule or what it says in this book or that book. Gaming life's too short...I prefer to just get on with the entertainment. I run a very sex, drugs and rock 'n roll kinda Nightbane game...

My girlfriend was complaining that I've gamed 3 weekends in a row...my players are drawn like Nightmoths the the Nightflame I guess.

[GaredBattlespike]

*snip*
The Mind Master and the Astral Lord both suffer the same flaw: NO HEALER CATAGORY POWERS!
*snip*
That's right! No Healing Touch to help out other Party Members or NPC's and no Bio-Regeneration Power to self-Heal (Exception: Mind Masters may choose Bio-Regeneration [Superior] as on of thier Master Catagory Powers, but it's not available to the Astral Lord at all).

*snip*
It all is a matter of style and need. If the Party I am in had aomeone who could Heal by Magic or Psionic means, then I would really concider the Astral Lord or Mind Master. As it is: I AM the Party Healer with Healing Touch for the others and Bio-Regeneration [Healer Catagory] for me!

Greetings! I have made an error and humbly request the pardon of you, my peers here. I errored in stating the Mind Master PCC does not get HEALING CATAGORY POWERS. This is wrong, the Mind Masters are forbidden the Physical Catagory instead. How I made such a basic error just proves that I really was born blond (truth as my baby pics show).

Again, my appologies for my error,
GaredBattlespike

[MurderCityDisciple]

*snip*
The Mind Master and the Astral Lord both suffer the same flaw: NO HEALER CATAGORY POWERS!
*snip*
That's right! No Healing Touch to help out other Party Members or NPC's and no Bio-Regeneration Power to self-Heal (Exception: Mind Masters may choose Bio-Regeneration [Superior] as on of thier Master Catagory Powers, but it's not available to the Astral Lord at all).

*snip*
It all is a matter of style and need. If the Party I am in had aomeone who could Heal by Magic or Psionic means, then I would really concider the Astral Lord or Mind Master. As it is: I AM the Party Healer with Healing Touch for the others and Bio-Regeneration [Healer Catagory] for me!

Greetings! I have made an error and humbly request the pardon of you, my peers here. I errored in stating the Mind Master PCC does not get HEALING CATAGORY POWERS. This is wrong, the Mind Masters are forbidden the Physical Catagory instead. How I made such a basic error just proves that I really was born blond (truth as my baby pics show).

Again, my appologies for my error,
GaredBattlespike

BEWARE!!

The Blondening!!

Such a curse...well blondes do have more fun. Dirty blondes even more-so.

[Jefffar]

Sorry for the clip out folks, removed some stuff that was off topic and fairly chippy. Carry on.

[MurderCityDisciple]

Broken rules are meant to be fixed...it's all about fun and enjoyment, not drone-like adherence to the rules.

Completely agree with you. Unfortunately KS and crew are deliberately making more broken rules, and not fixing them.

For years, hell decades actually I had issues with (the rules) and mostly avoided Palladium Books except for Robotech and the occasional Ninja Turtles game. It was the jinky rules for the most part that kept me away.

Anyhow-

I played pretty much everything out there for better or worse and then got out of gaming for 5 years or so. Then a year or so ago, I out of the blue dug my Nightbane stuff out of storage. A couple of bathroom reading sessions and I was hooked or re-hooked and haven't looked back.

I wonder if KS is oblivious as to the broken rules issue, knows the rules, but for some reason has a major problem presenting them in a cohesive manner or just rambles on with no concern (it's up to us to keep up and decipher and sift and house-rule)?