Lazlo land sale?

[rc_brooks]

Well, it came up in our campaign how land around Lazlo or other areas were handled. In this case it's undeveloped land where a character can build their own hangar of sorts. I don't know how Lazlo view land development around their city.

Anyone approached this before?

[Ravenwing]

Lazlos a bunch of hippies, so my assumption would be a simple plop and squat and you hold the land.

[Dr Megaverse]

I imagine they have some sort of patrol around the city and in the surrounding lands, so it might be a good idea to find out from the folks in Lazlo what their rules are. Being the accepting folk they are I'm sure they'll just want you to promise to follow the laws, pay a land tax, etc. Typical bureaucracy stuff but with hippies.

[Bood Samel]

If players are doing it make it cost them so they have to earn it and then also they'll have a personal investment in it and defend the property with enthusiasm.

[Shark_Force]

there is a very, very, very, very, very small chance that lazlo meets all it's food requirements with magic.

there is a much, much, much, much, much larger chance that lazlo meets all it's food requirements like most other cities, ie by farms, ranches, orchards etc spread out around the city itself and which are likely considered to be part of the nation of lazlo even if technically outside of city limits. potentially even "undeveloped" land may be considered valuable sources of assorted herbs, plants, or other goods.

as a general rule, the area around a city is not going to be available to build on. it's going to be in use by other people who were there when the city was being made, and realised there was very shortly going to be a need for all those commodities that a city needs but can't produce within city limits. by the time a city is established, the land around *any* city will already be settled, and will likely have an assortment of farms, suburbs, etc nearby. it isn't really just sitting there available for the taking, because the city will have already had all the places taken.

and people aren't likely to be interested in giving up their land (and, more to the point, their livelihood_ which cannot be easily replaced since they'll have just as hard a time of getting new land as you would. so my opinion is that unless they mean land that is in fact rather far from the city, they're not likely to find anything that they can just claim, and even buying land will be hard since that land is probably their main or even their only source of income.

[Balabanto]

Yeah. Lazlo has a functioning economy. More or less the outlying farms will be large swaths of farmland that are patrolled by the Lazlo Militia. I would rather eat glass than squat or land grab in Lazlo. In the Coalition, you have to fight a bunch of armored guys.

In Lazlo, you have to fight...ADVENTURERS! Forget that. Adventurers are always the WORST encounters you could possibly imagine.

[Ravenwing]

Lazlo has a commune style remember? It's the hippie thing at work.


But seriously.

I wouldn't charge them, for one very simple reason.
They could go to Merctown, squat on some land, and have about a thousand times better. The land's free, the jobmarket is better, and Merctown isn't under any sort of embargo from the CS/NG/MI.

[azazel1024]

In all cases it depends on where you are talking. Even Merc town some of the sorrounding lands are going to be owned and controlled by the city. Plenty of other land is going to be owned and controlled by companies, farmers, merc operations, etc.

Lazlo no different. If you are planning on setting up, say, 2 miles outside of the urban city limits, there probably isn't a snowballs chance that the land is unclaimed. You might be able to lease or buy it from someone or the city, but it isn't going to be unclaimed. 10 miles out, you might have a chance, but probably still claimed by someone, if not being actively developed upon. 20 miles out and you could probably find unclaimed land.

The larger the city, the large this zone of "claim" is going to be. Crap, look at a modern city for examples. Even if the suburbs are smaller, a city with a population of a million, with all its assorted industries, has a zone of maybe around 5-8 miles around the city with a fairly developed urban/suburban population and probably a fair amount of farms too. Go another 10-15 miles and you'll find a lot of farm land, some of which supports the city. With modern farming techniques (modern to today) and decent quality land, it takes about 1 acre of dedicated farm land to support 1 person. A lot more if you are raising livestock or diary stock (about 10 times more).

So figure an average of 4 acres of land per person, at a minimum. 1 million people requires about 4 million acres of farm land, most of which is going to be located close in to the city, since there isn't much interkingdom trade on this level.

There are 640 acres to the square mile, so a million people requires about 1,500 square miles of farm land to raise crops and livestock to supply the city. That is an area about 40 miles by 40 miles. Assume an urban center of about 5x5 miles, that leaves you with farmland surrounding the city of about 45 miles in diameter fairly dedicated to farming. Some obviously isn't going to be usable for farming and some is going to be used for other things.

That is a BIG area that is owned/claimed by someone around a million person city.
-Matt

PS Even assuming more advanced farming techniques, which PS most of the US during Rifts has a tech level from about the 18th century up to around the very early 21st century, a relatively small amount is at a higher level than that, you might get down more around 1 acre per person, even including some livestock, and fishing to supplement if near a large body of water. That is still an area of about 20-25 miles all around the city almost completely dedicated to farming to support 1 million people.

[azazel1024]

Are you talking supplying 100% of your dietary needs from .25 acres? Because Soy provides one of the most energy dense yields, and on really good land with really good farming practices it can calorically supply about 3 adults with typical north american weather. Assuming not perfect farming methods, not perfect yields, and not perfectly arable land and you increase the land area needed to support a single person (some of the land is lakes, rivers, swamp, hills, sandy, marshy, rocky, poorly draining, too sheltered, etc) when you talk about a large geographic area, such as you'd find surrounding most cities.

I don't see anyway that .25 acres can supply 100% of the caloric needs of 4 people, short of a lot of greenhouse production for multiple harvests and/or tiered production through rack/hydroponic growing).

Its a much smaller area than a quarter acre (more like 100m^2 or so is the largest I've gardened on), but my experience with gardening is that you need a lot of land to really supply all of the caloric needs for a person. To provide all of the fresh produce it doesn't take all that much, but all of the caloric needs is a different story.

If you throw in a lot of fishing/seafood because of close proximity to a large lake/bay/river/sea/ocean you could supplement the land area you'd need for cultivation quite a bit. You would still need a pretty large area even if you were talking strictly fresh produce and some grains to supply the populace with most of the protein and calories coming from seafood. Certainly not 1500sq-miles for a million people, but probably still 200-300 sq-miles.

Animal poo can be reprocessed to some degree for fertilizer and for methane fuel production. Animals do require a huge amount of resources to raise though. About 10x as much input in to the animal as you get in calories. Higher for "longer to slaughter" type animals such as cows and pigs, somewhat lower for chickens/turkeys. So "1 acres" worth of grains is only going to provide 1/10th those calories if used as animal feed.

Hangar and a landing strip needs a lot of land, a couple of square miles unless using STOL, VSTOL or VTOL aircraft for a short/no runway.

[Shark_Force]

Are you talking supplying 100% of your dietary needs from .25 acres? Because Soy provides one of the most energy dense yields, and on really good land with really good farming practices it can calorically supply about 3 adults with typical north american weather. Assuming not perfect farming methods, not perfect yields, and not perfectly arable land and you increase the land area needed to support a single person (some of the land is lakes, rivers, swamp, hills, sandy, marshy, rocky, poorly draining, too sheltered, etc) when you talk about a large geographic area, such as you'd find surrounding most cities.

I don't see anyway that .25 acres can supply 100% of the caloric needs of 4 people, short of a lot of greenhouse production for multiple harvests and/or tiered production through rack/hydroponic growing).

Its a much smaller area than a quarter acre (more like 100m^2 or so is the largest I've gardened on), but my experience with gardening is that you need a lot of land to really supply all of the caloric needs for a person. To provide all of the fresh produce it doesn't take all that much, but all of the caloric needs is a different story.

If you throw in a lot of fishing/seafood because of close proximity to a large lake/bay/river/sea/ocean you could supplement the land area you'd need for cultivation quite a bit. You would still need a pretty large area even if you were talking strictly fresh produce and some grains to supply the populace with most of the protein and calories coming from seafood. Certainly not 1500sq-miles for a million people, but probably still 200-300 sq-miles.

Animal poo can be reprocessed to some degree for fertilizer and for methane fuel production. Animals do require a huge amount of resources to raise though. About 10x as much input in to the animal as you get in calories. Higher for "longer to slaughter" type animals such as cows and pigs, somewhat lower for chickens/turkeys. So "1 acres" worth of grains is only going to provide 1/10th those calories if used as animal feed.

Hangar and a landing strip needs a lot of land, a couple of square miles unless using STOL, VSTOL or VTOL aircraft for a short/no runway.

of course, let's not forget that the city likely has other needs too... lumber for building, possibly some mining operations, military outposts/fortresses, non-food crops (like hemp or cotton), etc. after all, if there's not a large developed trade network, that means you likely have to be at least moderately self-sufficient as a city, so while you might not necessarily grow every last bit of your own clothes and food, you will be growing at least some of it.

but the short version is, the land *near* the city is almost definitely in use. the land that is near to being near the city is probably in use by smaller satellite communities as well, which rely on lazlo for protection. and if you want land for something anywhere near, and you don't want to declare war on lazlo, you are pretty much going to have to buy it.

[rc_brooks]

Well we can be certain that land can be bought... because you can buy land in just about anywhere in the world today... even New York, even if you have to raze something to build something. We farm ourselves (as supplemental resources these days), but there is still plenty of land to build what you like (some farmers here have their own aircraft, landing strips and hangars) and there is land that just doesn't suit to grow on, due to soil content, flood plains and topography, of course with magic, I am sure things could be mended more easily than tens of thousands of dollars worth of dikes, fertilizer and landscaping.

That being said, this is just 4 acres or so (VTOL aircraft), but there have been some good considerations mentioned.

I think I will try to figure out an average income for the city and figure an acre of vacant land outside the city at 5% of annual income per capita. I'll post back here what I can figure out.

Thanks for all the input.

[csbioborg]

Yeah. Lazlo has a functioning economy. More or less the outlying farms will be large swaths of farmland that are patrolled by the Lazlo Militia. I would rather eat glass than squat or land grab in Lazlo. In the Coalition, you have to fight a bunch of heros.

In Lazlo, you have to fight...Heretics! Forget that. Heretics are always the WORST encounters you could possibly imagine.

fixed

[Shark_Force]

definitely, it's going to be possible to buy land... it's just not going to be cheap, and they're not necessarily going to be able to buy whatever land they want, since some (indeed quite possibly many) people simply won't be interested in selling, and those who are interested in selling likely have plenty of offers by others who would like to expand their holdings.

[TechnoGothic]

Here in Florida.
My Family grows enough Garden food for 4 Adults on less than .25 acres of land for ourselves. Various types are grown too. Corn, Meleons, beans, pees, peppers, lettice, ocra, and more. We let chickens free range and they keep the garden pest free for us. We eat the eggs and chickens, but they always keep their own numbers high.
The rest of land is used to grow Oranges to sell or Cows that we sell every year or two. We dont eat them.
Alot of families outside of the cities here in florida do this.

[azazel1024]

I'd use a higher valuation of land, and it'll still depend on where.

Land might be worth less in the Rift scenario, but going by modern day prices, land runs about 1-5x median income per acre close to cities (within 10 miles of the city limits). Far out prices drop off quite a bit, but still run around .1-1x median income.

Heck, land in Iowa even is pretty expensive these days with farm landing running around $5000 an acre, or about 12% of median annual income.

Now true "worthless land" that no one cares about might be less, but I'd say if you are trying to plunk down 4 acres close in to the city, within "sight" distance, say 3-5 miles from the city limits, you are probably looking at about 50-100% of median income an acre.

4 acres also isn't much. Its about 400x400ft. If you are landing VTOL jets that are 50-60ft long, that doesn't give you are particularly big landing area. A hanger for 2 jets, plus some equipment, tools, spare ammo, etc is probably going to take up close to an acre of that space, plus at least an acre for a landing sight, leaving you with maybe at most 2 acres left for any buildings or any other land use (gardening if you feel like it, guard towers, berm, fence, minefield, drill square, shooting range, etc).

Honestly unless you are talking a very tiny group with just a VTOL jet or two or a helicopter or two, and you don't plan on any kind of physical security, I'd say 4 acres is really too small for what the group would want. I understand you probably aren't talking about encamping a regiment, but even a group of 10-20 with a couple of aerial vehicles, some physical security, maybe shooting range, drill field, etc is probably going to want more like 8-10 acres at a min and it is going to have to be decent enough land (IE mostly flat, or at least several acres of it for the hanger(s) and landing pad). So you are probably really talking anything from about 10-30% of median income per acre for it.

PS Rifts' credits seem to be very losely equivelent to US dollars today, so I'd say in a rather high tech and magical city like Lazlo, median income is probably between 30-60k credits a year. Or 3-18k credits an acre...I use around 10k an acre closeish in, 20k an acre just outside of the city limits and 5k an acre if you are an hour's drive out of the city (30+ miles).

[Saitou Hajime]

Lazlo has a HUGE amount of Farmable land around [1000's of Square miles], most of that Area of Southern Ontario was farm land at one time, much of it would be reclaimed.

[Shark_Force]

Lazlo has a HUGE amount of Farmable land around [1000's of Square miles], most of that Area of Southern Ontario was farm land at one time, much of it would be reclaimed.

sure, but not all of that farm land is close to a city. gotta have some place to sell your crops, and in rifts you also gotta be near someone who can keep you from getting shot for your crops.

[Balabanto]

Yeah. Lazlo has a functioning economy. More or less the outlying farms will be large swaths of farmland that are patrolled by the Lazlo Militia. I would rather eat glass than squat or land grab in Lazlo. In the Coalition, you have to fight a bunch of heros.

In Lazlo, you have to fight...Heretics! Forget that. Heretics are always the WORST encounters you could possibly imagine.

fixed

Thanks for the edit. Clearly, you misunderstood the point of the enterprise. By the way, Lazlo educates it's citizens. That's "Heroes." Next time, don't troll unless you can spell all the words correctly.

Here's a hint. There is a spellchecker built directly into the posting board. If this isn't good enough, Microsoft Word can be used to edit your posts before you put them up on the boards. It's the height of rudeness to edit someone's words. It's even ruder to do it and spell them incorrectly and misquote people.

[Saitou Hajime]

Lazlo has a HUGE amount of Farmable land around [1000's of Square miles], most of that Area of Southern Ontario was farm land at one time, much of it would be reclaimed.

sure, but not all of that farm land is close to a city. gotta have some place to sell your crops, and in rifts you also gotta be near someone who can keep you from getting shot for your crops.

there still lots of farm land within a 90 km circle

[azazel1024]

Lazlo has a HUGE amount of Farmable land around [1000's of Square miles], most of that Area of Southern Ontario was farm land at one time, much of it would be reclaimed.

sure, but not all of that farm land is close to a city. gotta have some place to sell your crops, and in rifts you also gotta be near someone who can keep you from getting shot for your crops.

there still lots of farm land within a 90 km circle

Certainly, but the closer in you get, then as it is now, the more valuable that land is and the more likely it is to be claimed/owned by someone.

Unless you have no care for the "big city" and are just growing food for yourself, the closer you are to your market the better. That and right outside of the city limits you are going to have plenty of other industries and commercial enterprises owning the land, not just farmers and people who work in the city, but want to live in the "suburbs".

Cities have followed this model for millenium and I doubt it would change. A stones throw from the city limits everything is going to be claimed, and probably expensive, far out and there might not be anyone who claims the land or it might be available for cheap.
-Matt

[Ravenwing]

Lazlo has a HUGE amount of Farmable land around [1000's of Square miles], most of that Area of Southern Ontario was farm land at one time, much of it would be reclaimed.

sure, but not all of that farm land is close to a city. gotta have some place to sell your crops, and in rifts you also gotta be near someone who can keep you from getting shot for your crops.

there still lots of farm land within a 90 km circle

Certainly, but the closer in you get, then as it is now, the more valuable that land is and the more likely it is to be claimed/owned by someone.

Unless you have no care for the "big city" and are just growing food for yourself, the closer you are to your market the better. That and right outside of the city limits you are going to have plenty of other industries and commercial enterprises owning the land, not just farmers and people who work in the city, but want to live in the "suburbs".

Cities have followed this model for millenium and I doubt it would change. A stones throw from the city limits everything is going to be claimed, and probably expensive, far out and there might not be anyone who claims the land or it might be available for cheap.
-Matt

Except cities in Rifts earth are mostly walled off fortresses.

Face it, land outside a cities walls is absolutely worthless. Why?
The ten thousand demons running around per square Centimeter for one.( OK an exaggeration, but it's close, maybe a thousand or so.)
Also consider, Lazlo, and the towns that we know of that surround it are in a fairly magic rich environment. So now add in random rifts, ley line storms, and randomly placed monsters.
Oh, but it gets better.
Fury beetles consider the Lazlo region to be prime real estate. Do you really want to build a house, or a farm where fifty plus foot bugs(By appearance anyway, they're actually mammals.) graze and run everyday?
CS Reconnaissance Troops. Nothing says 'Target of opportunity' like a farm house. Well, if it's owned by heretics and mutants and Xeno's scum anyway.

Any farming done outside Lazlo has to be done in tightly secure industrial farms, complete with walls, guards etc. I'm not saying there isn't, but I imagine Lazlo gets the bulk of it's food from urban farming, rooftops, stuff like that. Like what you're always seeing on that show Modern MArvels, and Future Tech. otherwise it's just to impractical, and dangerous. Rifts earth is swarming with MDC monsters that eat people and Dbees for snacks. Especially in magic rich areas.

[Shark_Force]

you're not going to get even remotely near enough food from growing crops on the rooftops.

and there's plenty of city outside the walls. every single CS fortress-city has 'burbs. there are stated to be large portions of the CS where farms, ranches, etc are found.

it will be no different from lazlo. how do they keep CS soldiers from marching in and burning everything to the ground? well, they have patrols, just like the CS. they have military outposts, just like the CS. when a bunch of fury beetles show up and start devastating someone's crops, you either kill and eat them, or capture them and sell them to a fury beetle ranch. when demons attack, you go and kick the crud out of them, because unless it's an actual army of demons, they're not going to be able to stand up to the average patrol, let alone be able to stand up to the reinforcements the patrol will call in if the enemy is beyond their personal capabilities to deal with. and in lazlo, those reinforcements may come at the speed of teleportation.

[Ravenwing]

you're not going to get even remotely near enough food from growing crops on the rooftops.

and there's plenty of city outside the walls. every single CS fortress-city has 'burbs. there are stated to be large portions of the CS where farms, ranches, etc are found.

it will be no different from lazlo. how do they keep CS soldiers from marching in and burning everything to the ground? well, they have patrols, just like the CS. they have military outposts, just like the CS. when a bunch of fury beetles show up and start devastating someone's crops, you either kill and eat them, or capture them and sell them to a fury beetle ranch. when demons attack, you go and kick the crud out of them, because unless it's an actual army of demons, they're not going to be able to stand up to the average patrol, let alone be able to stand up to the reinforcements the patrol will call in if the enemy is beyond their personal capabilities to deal with. and in lazlo, those reinforcements may come at the speed of teleportation.

The Rooftop things a little more complicated then some dude gardening on his roof, I can't find the Modern Marvels Episode I'm using as a source, so lets forget it for now.

As to Lazlo Patrols, yes, I agree they'd be out there. However they won't compare to the CS Patrols. Not only are the working with outdated tech, but Lazlo's so much smaller then anywhere else. Look at the Bug book( Yeah, I know it's been completely Retconned out, but it provides us with a small sampling of Lazlo's army.) Lazlo simply doesn't have the troops to patrol very far beyond their walls, a few miles at best. I won't say they don't use magic, but that's only going to get you so much.

And the thing that keeps the CS from rolling through Lazlo is mostly Author fiat. The CS has no interest in running it over at this time, thats FQ's job, and their content to leave Lazlo alone so long as it leaves them alone.

For now.
As far as we know, Lazlo doesn't have a burbs, or well it does, they've never mentioned it.

[rc_brooks]

I'd use a higher valuation of land, and it'll still depend on where.

Land might be worth less in the Rift scenario, but going by modern day prices, land runs about 1-5x median income per acre close to cities (within 10 miles of the city limits). Far out prices drop off quite a bit, but still run around .1-1x median income.

Heck, land in Iowa even is pretty expensive these days with farm landing running around $5000 an acre, or about 12% of median annual income.

Now true "worthless land" that no one cares about might be less, but I'd say if you are trying to plunk down 4 acres close in to the city, within "sight" distance, say 3-5 miles from the city limits, you are probably looking at about 50-100% of median income an acre.

4 acres also isn't much. Its about 400x400ft. If you are landing VTOL jets that are 50-60ft long, that doesn't give you are particularly big landing area. A hanger for 2 jets, plus some equipment, tools, spare ammo, etc is probably going to take up close to an acre of that space, plus at least an acre for a landing sight, leaving you with maybe at most 2 acres left for any buildings or any other land use (gardening if you feel like it, guard towers, berm, fence, minefield, drill square, shooting range, etc).

Honestly unless you are talking a very tiny group with just a VTOL jet or two or a helicopter or two, and you don't plan on any kind of physical security, I'd say 4 acres is really too small for what the group would want. I understand you probably aren't talking about encamping a regiment, but even a group of 10-20 with a couple of aerial vehicles, some physical security, maybe shooting range, drill field, etc is probably going to want more like 8-10 acres at a min and it is going to have to be decent enough land (IE mostly flat, or at least several acres of it for the hanger(s) and landing pad). So you are probably really talking anything from about 10-30% of median income per acre for it.

PS Rifts' credits seem to be very losely equivelent to US dollars today, so I'd say in a rather high tech and magical city like Lazlo, median income is probably between 30-60k credits a year. Or 3-18k credits an acre...I use around 10k an acre closeish in, 20k an acre just outside of the city limits and 5k an acre if you are an hour's drive out of the city (30+ miles).

Ah, this is for one character, and looking to build something akin to a multilevel basement under the hanger.

Here in Indiana, good farm land runs about 1-2k an acre, in the south of the state. While in the west/north west (Montana, Wyoming, Idaho), you can have land for less than 500 an acre... but there is NOTHING around for hundreds of miles more or less and then of course when you get to developable land (for residential), the prices soar.

Of course the economics of rifts isn't a highly developed area of the game, but we were similar in consensus on median incomes, as we play it as MDC weapons and items being much more common than normally presented (of course for us we also don't think 2k for an eclip is an economically viable price when energy seems to be reasonably abundant).

I think you pricing is pretty close. At least with what we were talking about. Of course I am also considering moving them to the southwest, so not sure building anything there would be advisable, but I suppose it could be rented, lol.

Thanks for the input

[MikelAmroni]

As for Lazlo patrols, it may not be as regular and omnipresent as CS patrols for their cities of the same size, but they have a quality that helps offset the quantity. After all a dragon is worth a squad of men all together, and some psi-stalkers or ley line walkers on Fury Beetles have stealth and assault power all in one (they dismount for stealth).

As for land sales itself, I think you'd find Lazlo to have a better bureaucracy that folks give it credit for. Being ruled by a city council intent on doing good doesn't make them weak. Perhaps a bit indecisive due to their preference for consensus, but not weak. A commune by definition is a weak form of government once it gets over a certain size. But then again, we are playing Lazlo as a slightly friendlier and less permissive version of merctown (our EU group (Paragon Acquisition Services) is in Lazlo right now).

[azazel1024]

Yeah the modern marvels stuff, and proposals are basically to build entire skyscrapers that are nothing more than hydroponic growing, level after level, rack after rack.

The issues today are power consumption and cost (of building and infrastructure). In a Rifts setting it would be cost and technology.

High tech isn't super common, even with the CS. Sure they have plenty, but a low tech solution is almost always choosen after a high tech one. Traditional farming is going to be the way most of it is done. With hydroponics and grow lights you can increase your yield to about 3x that of traditional farming for the same basic area. Since you can grow with racks, you can then increase the density. That said, a city block sized building (about 5 acres) 20 stories high would have an area of 100 acres. Consider racks such that they can do 2 racks per story, you have 200 acres equivelent, plus grow lights, minus space need to tend and harvest and you have an equivelent yield of around 400-500 acres for a building taking up a city block and 20 stories high. Hell, move it up to 100 stories...bigger than pretty much anything anyone builds in post-Rifts other than the CS megacities and maybe some stuff in Japan or NGR and you have about 2,000-2,500 acre equivelent. Maybe double it again for really high tech growing and gene-optimized plants (which is beyond everyone except CS lonestar and maybe NGR/Japan) and you have maybe 5,000 acres equivelent yield.

At around 3 people an acre for ideal "land" which this would be and you can maybe supply 15,000 people from this enormous building. Have a million people you need to feed...well you need about 60 of these massive buildings.

Seems highly unlikely for a place like Lazlo, and probably too space intensive for a CS fortress city also. Medieval cites were foretress towns also (or a lot were).

They still grew their crops outside, they just fled to the city when attacked/under siege. I see this as no different in Rifts.

PS I'll grant that urban farming probably does occur, especially in hippie cities like Lazlo/New Lazlo, but it probably doesn't supply even 10% of the needed food. Also for demons and monsters and random rifts, oh my...well it can't be that bad or there litterally would be a single person living outside of a fortified city ANYWHERE. Is it more dangerous than living on Earth today? Sure. Worse than living as a caveman with nothing higher tech then a spear to ward off that sabertooth tiger? Nope, probably on par with that for level of danger. There can't be mauraders everywhere, or those little villages that get written about all the time with barely 18th century tech would be wiped off the map and NEVER rebuilt.

Patrols from the city and militias and police in the surrounding communities keep things safe enough.

[Ravenwing]

Yeah the modern marvels stuff, and proposals are basically to build entire skyscrapers that are nothing more than hydroponic growing, level after level, rack after rack.

The issues today are power consumption and cost (of building and infrastructure). In a Rifts setting it would be cost and technology.

High tech isn't super common, even with the CS. Sure they have plenty, but a low tech solution is almost always choosen after a high tech one. Traditional farming is going to be the way most of it is done. With hydroponics and grow lights you can increase your yield to about 3x that of traditional farming for the same basic area. Since you can grow with racks, you can then increase the density. That said, a city block sized building (about 5 acres) 20 stories high would have an area of 100 acres. Consider racks such that they can do 2 racks per story, you have 200 acres equivelent, plus grow lights, minus space need to tend and harvest and you have an equivelent yield of around 400-500 acres for a building taking up a city block and 20 stories high. Hell, move it up to 100 stories...bigger than pretty much anything anyone builds in post-Rifts other than the CS megacities and maybe some stuff in Japan or NGR and you have about 2,000-2,500 acre equivelent. Maybe double it again for really high tech growing and gene-optimized plants (which is beyond everyone except CS lonestar and maybe NGR/Japan) and you have maybe 5,000 acres equivelent yield.

At around 3 people an acre for ideal "land" which this would be and you can maybe supply 15,000 people from this enormous building. Have a million people you need to feed...well you need about 60 of these massive buildings.

Seems highly unlikely for a place like Lazlo, and probably too space intensive for a CS fortress city also. Medieval cites were foretress towns also (or a lot were).

They still grew their crops outside, they just fled to the city when attacked/under siege. I see this as no different in Rifts.

PS I'll grant that urban farming probably does occur, especially in hippie cities like Lazlo/New Lazlo, but it probably doesn't supply even 10% of the needed food. Also for demons and monsters and random rifts, oh my...well it can't be that bad or there litterally would be a single person living outside of a fortified city ANYWHERE. Is it more dangerous than living on Earth today? Sure. Worse than living as a caveman with nothing higher tech then a spear to ward off that sabertooth tiger? Nope, probably on par with that for level of danger. There can't be mauraders everywhere, or those little villages that get written about all the time with barely 18th century tech would be wiped off the map and NEVER rebuilt.

Patrols from the city and militias and police in the surrounding communities keep things safe enough.

Lol. You know I sometimes wonder that myself, how did anyone survive with MD monsters running around constantly? Just a nit pick of mine, and a few others over the whole MD system I suppose. I mean it makes sense on one hand granted. Yet on the other it doesn't, the sheer odds that a SDC creatures going to get killed picking a flower are to astronomical.

Myself I've always seen Rifts earth as a litteral hell, where humans, and SDC creatures are just living on borrowed time. Eventually the demons and monsters are going to wipe them out. Which is always why I've leaned towards the CS. They're that one place that's driven the monsters out, and keeps them out....well mostly.

[Saitou Hajime]

How big is Lazlo?