The Anatomy of Character Creation

[Crucible]

Nice title, but this won't be in term paper format.

Recently one of my players told me that he himself was running a Rifts game with a few guys that I didn't know. He wanted some pointers, so I started with character creation. He stopped me there and told me that he had already helped them make characters. I was interested, but then he told me what they were playing.

Guys, I have nothing against powered games, but I know what they can do at times. Exhaust a GM into absolute boredom, especially if you are just a little bit inexperienced with GMing.

I will tell you about 3 of the characters that were created.

Rahu-Man Mutant(Create Force Field and Immortality: Mega Hero) OCC: Cyber-Knight
Dragon Hatchling (Great Horned) w/Super Energy Expulsion (Special Breath Weapon: Fire) OCC: Samauri
Godling Ley Line Walker/Mind Melter (not joking guys) OCC: Mystic Kuznya

Okay, this was my reaction...


I tend to keep the guys mortal and not necessarily because I want to, but because the guys like it more. There is more fear and not the idea of dominance.

Here at this forum I see traces of the power creep but I refuse to say anything about it most of the time. I'd have to say though that I would think that a character made from Rifts: Mercenaries armed with refitted SDC weapons and some MD Ramjet or Explosive rounds can be far more exciting than a character that can kill 40 CS troops alone at first level.

No offense. What do you allow in character creation???

[keir451]

I'm running a game where the players were dissatisfied w/ their previous GM, normally I stick with mortal races, but in this instance I have a full conversion cyborg and an Anti-Monster(we also had a Mystic, but the player bailed) these characters were given to the players by their GM (c'mon guys two tanks and a squishie what was this guy thinking, esp as none of them had ANY gaming experience at all).
Character classes are limited only by the camapign, and common sense. The characters you described are powerful indeed for a regular campaign, but for one of appropiate level? Who knows?

[Incriptus]

Without context that group is clearly insane. There are no book legal rules to do that. Ok, with that out of the way, I guess its the question of context. If the GM said "I want to run an incredibly powerful group of characters. I want you to choose an RCC & OCC. If you like we'll throw in a couple of super powers to get things really going" I guess its cool. I mean in the correct context he's got a bunch of weaklings. Not even all combined could they destroy a planet, that happens every other week in comic books!

[cyber-yukongil v2.5]

what I hate is when people dump on other people's fun because it isn't theirs. Worse still is the attitude that it's impossible to have a good game if you have powerful characters.

I find this funny, especially considering the nature of Rifts. Next to a vagabond who can "eyeball a fella" you have people who can set tanks on fire with their minds, or walking tanks that could devestate entire armies of modern earth by themselves. Then you have basic mystics who get some neat tricks, next to a person who can call and command greater demons.

there is no balance in Rifts, no scale that everyone must play on, and to look down on anyone for their version of fun is just dickish.

[Shark_Force]

i would disagree on the whole "rifts is not meant to be balanced" thing. sure, each individual OCC/RCC/whatever isn't scrutinised for balance in the same way as some other games, but that doesn't mean there's no sense of balance. it's just that in rifts, sometimes the ability to ID someone as an undercover cop is at least as important, if not more important, as launching a 3d6x10 flechette round nearly 2 miles with remarkable accuracy. not everyone needs to be balanced in combat, because rifts was not designed to be *only* a combat game, it was designed to have the option of being a combat game, but also to have the option of being political intrigue, survival/horror, epic adventure, or virtually any other type of game. when kevin says "rifts isn't meant to balanced like other games" that doesn't mean "we specifically designed it so that the vagabond will die in the first combat they get into because that's more fun than a balanced game", it means "the vagabond is designed to be good at things that aren't combat, and should use those skills to accomplish their goals while avoiding combat instead, thus creating a sort of balance." or, to put it another way, i believe kevin means "we think it's a really stupid idea to make the game entirely one-dimensional just to make it easier to balance, but i'm not about to go out and point fingers at any specific game no matter how stupid i think they are for making that decision because it isn't worth the bother. instead, palladium prefers to make a game that really tries to allow anything, and in that context, balance will ultimately be something different for each game of rifts based on how that specific game is run."

now, since i've got that out of the way, to the main point:

high-powered groups *can* be enjoyable. i mean, let's face it, i don't know about you, but there was a time when i played the game so that i could be the most absurdly powerful character possible, and go out and kill stuff and take their loot. it isn't inherently a "wrong" way to play, even. personally, i have found that it only tends to last for so long, however; essentially, the characters *must* be consistently facing things that will challenge them, or the game gets boring. and the more powerful options the PCs get, the harder it is for a GM to provide a challenge without the game just devolving into silliness. it's not a problem for one-offs, but it can certainly make for a much harder time for the GM to challenge the players when between them they know 150 different spells, have 2 dozen magic items each with multiple abilities, can use almost any skill, and have almost any psionic power you care to name between them.

so, bearing in mind that these high-powered groups can make it almost impossible for the GM to keep track of everything he/she needs to know to challenge the group... personally, i do think that low-powered games (or at least not super-high-powered games) are much more *likely* to be fun. not because it's inherently more enjoyable, but simply because the GM doesn't have to spend 40 hours a week handcrafting opponents for a single battle just to keep the PCs from slaughtering them in the first melee round using options the GM hadn't fully considered. it's not fun for the GM when that happens, and it probably isn't fun for the players either, because it eventually devolves to a game of Fish (does he have immunity to magic net? yup, go fish. dang. does he have so much MDC/regeneration that i can't whittle him down with regular attacks? yup, go fish. and so forth) and if you wanted to do that, well... it'd be a lot quicker to just go grab some cards and play Fish.

[Shark_Force]

Well.. or the GM can come up with plots that will be fun taking as given that the PCs can dismantle anyone it comes down to a straight-up fight with. Strange but true: sometimes combat superbeasts are the most fun when they're used in a game that's very light on actually playing out combat.

same basic reason; you're providing a challenge by not attacking where they are strong. the result: you've effectively made them into low-powered PCs, making it easier to GM for, making it easier for everyone to enjoy the game.

[Crucible]

The smiley I used was neutral. I just paused...LOL

No, he admitted later that he thought it would make his characters want to play with him. Wow. I don't mind power games. I've had a few very high powered games I won't lie. I've used fish out of water type characters in almost every setting.

You can play powered campaigns and enjoy them, but I know that for a GM it can be a little dull. Well, for me. This guy that I speak of is in my Burn Cycle game this year and was in my game in '95 as well. He's a great guy and one of the best overall gamers that I have ever met. GMing is a little different.

In one game some years ago he actually went as far as to allow an Antediluvian Vampire in WoD.

Not dumping on him, but I am curious as to how others play their games. I merely made it known that I run low powered games, they are not "weak" by a stretch.

[Carl Gleba]

I have to agree with Shark_Force and WildWalker. The point of the game is to have fun. Furthermore I believe it is the GM's job to maintain Game Balance. Rifts is balanced as Game System, but not every O.C.C. is meant to be equal. No way man.

When I run a game I tell the players, Ok, guys lets make them mortal S.D.C. characters. Our version of a low powered game. My players end up being the testers for a lot of my ideas and concepts. So to be fair to them in this last game I said go ahead and make your dream characters, but they either had to be all M.D.C. characters or S.D.C. characters. Given what they could have made I thought this group was pretty mild.

Demi-god - Cyber-Knight with Shifter powers - spells and powers progress like a shifter.
Demi-god - Special Forces with shifter powers - same as above.
Royal Frilled Dragon with Shifter O.C.C.
ATB Bunnie - Shifter O.C.C. with Monkey Kung-fu HtH
Grackle-tooth Temporal Warrior (N.P.C.)

Yeah they were a bit paranoid that I would strand them in a dimension with no way home so that's why everyone has Shifter powers.

Anyway, yeah this is a power group. So here is what I did to keep my game balanced. First off after all the characters were made I introduced the players to their Master, Lord Aeries. Lord Aeries is a Sunaj Assassin who has his own cell and is using the characters to further his clans goals of genocide. To ensure their "loyalty" each character has a magic tattoo that on command from their master can issue agony. It also acts as a pager to summon them.

Now because of how tough and powerful they are, the group is tasked with doing their masters bidding. Basically they are dimensional raiders. Here are a few things they did:

Steal a Splugorth Slaver Barge - not easy as there were only three of them at a time.
Steal a magic book from a guarded library in the UWW. It was on a guarded UWW world.
Steal a Death Cloud Cannon from an Arcane Mark V patrol ship (loaded with Warlock Marines) at a UWW shipyard.
Break out an N.P.C. from a Splugorth prison - lots of Splugorth minions involved.
Go to Hades, Find a specific greater demon so their lord can make a deal with him. The time in Hades they faced tons of demons and started the Minion War.
Well they finally discovered that their master was involved in a genocidal war against other atlanteans and that they were being used to further this plot. So they foiled their master's latest plot and escaped to Rifts Earth and are now working for Tolkeen. Sooner or later the Sunaj will come calling

So the guys are having fun, I'm having fun exploring a different kind of story line and placing the characters against very powerful foes.

Win/Win

Carl

[Thinyser]

what I hate is when people dump on other people's fun because it isn't theirs. Worse still is the attitude that it's impossible to have a good game if you have powerful characters.

I find this funny, especially considering the nature of Rifts. Next to a vagabond who can "eyeball a fella" you have people who can set tanks on fire with their minds, or walking tanks that could devestate entire armies of modern earth by themselves. Then you have basic mystics who get some neat tricks, next to a person who can call and command greater demons.

there is no balance in Rifts, no scale that everyone must play on, and to look down on anyone for their version of fun is just dickish.

Agreed and well said!

[Crucible]

what I hate is when people dump on other people's fun because it isn't theirs. Worse still is the attitude that it's impossible to have a good game if you have powerful characters.

I find this funny, especially considering the nature of Rifts. Next to a vagabond who can "eyeball a fella" you have people who can set tanks on fire with their minds, or walking tanks that could devestate entire armies of modern earth by themselves. Then you have basic mystics who get some neat tricks, next to a person who can call and command greater demons.

there is no balance in Rifts, no scale that everyone must play on, and to look down on anyone for their version of fun is just dickish.

Agreed and well said!

Why get so offended? Its not worth it. I was only saying. Tell us what you think...

[Crucible]

You know, this thread was never meant as a put down or to be insulting. There are people who lurk on boards to get tips and ideas. I was just adding some of mine.

I've been gaming for about 24yrs now and playing Rifts for 14 of those years. I'm not perfect but I do have bits and pieces to add. I believe "munchkin" is a mindset. To me its the idea that you cannot play a fun game or enjoy yourself unless you have aenough firepower or ability to down the other PC's in your group.

With that said I believe in power gaming sometimes. Most are one shots, but they can be fun. Here lies the problem. I just got off of the phone after about three hours of listening to my buddy complain that his game sucked. Yeah. He did not mean to run a powerful compaign, it just happened. So now, he feels as though he wasted his evening and wants another tip.

These are grown men, mostly 30+yrs old playing this game and most cannot play more than once every two weeks. He wanted to understand how I do it.

The key is to know your limits and what you are running. If all else fails just run a low powered game to start and make memorable scenery and NPC's. That is if you are serious about your games and need quality and nothing else will do.

I've seen games where guys are rambunctious and talking loud and joking and almost never in-game. I've seen games where the guys take over a government, but usually the GM has a VERY powerful PC/NPC in the group and is their leader. I've seen games that were non-stop violence and I've even seen some that made absolutely no sense. While they may have been fun I'm sure that it could have been better.

The same guy who ran that game mentioned in the OP is pound for pound the very BEST gamer that I know. He just doesn't know how to limit others. He's a great leader in-game, but I feared that his players would take advantage of him and they did. Now he is upset. I knew that it would happen because experience says to know your players and their power threshold just as you would your own.

I run low powered games that are high powered. What I mean is...example: I have run a game in PFRPG that had a group of canon characters and a Palladin who I allowed to have Winged Flight, Bio-Armor, and Energy Weapon Extension...had the mutation in HU2 (you gain powers as you grow in level). The character was pretty devastating (the player of whom I am speaking played this character). It was played well, had a great story and all of the players loved it.

So what is the real advice? Know what you want as the GM and while you should allow your players to play what they want, be advised that it may not work in your game. I laugh at the words "balance" and "fair" in Rifts. You can have a 1000yr old Dragon working beside a City Rat 1st level. What I mean is think of what the game means to you. Learn to say "no" and downsell OCC's if needbe. For instance you have a guy who really wants to be a Dragon Hatchling, but it wasn't meant to happen in your game...find out why he wanted to be a dragon. Listen to your players and find out what would make that player happy and not destroy the only night that month that you can game. Its not worth playing as a GM if you can't really enjoy it yourself. Most of us are not paid to run games.

Here is an example: Years ago a player of mine saw Rifts:Japan and said...HECK YEAH!!! I want a NINJA!!! So I asked him why and got his answer. They are super kewl, got Ninjitsu which is the ultimate MA, they get to wear the Ninja suit, and they just appear out of nowhere. Instead of saying yes or no, I got into the history of the Ninja and explained that I was a purist on that and this is what a Ninja is. I showed the variants and my player said, no but what else is kewl like a Ninja? I then prepared my downsell and told him about the Super-Spy in Mercenaries. He asked if he could have a kewl martial art and I allowed him to take Karate. He was pleased at his character and played him similarly...as it turned out he did not know how to play a ninja (far more complicated than cool abilities and a hoodie). He played the character for two years straight. I had no children then so we played often (so long as it was not football season).

This is what I mean, some folks love power games and its cool. If you are one who does not though, this thread could actually help you. Hopefully others will have valuable input as well.

Thanks.

[Balabanto]

Let me show you a breakdown of some of my groups.

The oldest game I run currently has six characters:

1) Marie de Bois Gilbert, Human Battle Magus 7 (Chi-Gung Martial Arts, Rifter #3)
2) Kenshiro, Cyber-Samurai 5
3) Jenifer, Elf Mind Melter 5
4) Roarshack, Ice Dragon Hatchling 4
5) Sir Justin, Phreaker Mutant Cyberknight 4 (Eighteen Weapons Kung-Fu)
6) Skorr Sundancer, Aviane Gunslinger 4 (Job concerns swapped the GB pilot we used to have) (HtH Commando-I Consider Hth Commando to be better than many of the martial arts styles in the N+S Book, because it is)

The second oldest has six characters also: (You can see some of the more endearing moments of this group on the funniest rifts moments thread. This group is also occasionally referred to as the Josie and the Pussycats group...or, as I like to refer to the incident...Neat, sweet, a groovy song, see a Gurgoyle in a thong...)

1) Callie (Lady Ileana Silvano), Human Knight of the White Rose (Monkey Style Kung-Fu) (It's been 4 levels. She's from the Pecos Empire. No one has gotten the Mexicali Rose joke yet)
2) Rex, Freeborn Dogboy Special Forces Op (Hth Commando)
3) Mindy, Human Dragon Juicer
4) Fang, Dragon Wolf Mind Melter
5) Alexander, True Atlantean Undead Slayer
6) Emerald, Gurgoyle Psi-Warrior

The third has four players

1) Theresa, Zenith Moon Warper
2) Jake, True Atlantean Burster
3) Suanja Achebe, True Atlantean Cyberknight with O-Ken-Wa
4) Halthorr, Asgardian Dwarf Combat Techno-Wizard

I also run some pickup games from time to time, but that should give you a general idea of the power level I run at. Yes, a couple people have died since the last time you saw this list.
The power level I run at is high, but not exceedingly so, and people do still kick the bucket pretty hard sometimes.

[Balabanto]

You should see who gets the XP penalties, though. True Atlantean Cyberknight gets a 10 percent, because you can get six magic tattoos in chargen, and that makes Cyberknight gross along with O-Ken Wa. The Gurgoyle Psi-Warrior takes a 25 percent penalty, because it grants massive psionics and the creature has huge amounts of megadamage.

If people want to play something more powerful, I hit them with an XP penalty, because coordinating all of those abilities is harder, and if you're a super munchkin, other people should level faster than you. The real problem with the O-Ken-Wa TA Cyberknight is that at level 7, everything synergizes and the character becomes a monster. At those levels, though, we consider it to be "High" level for Rifts. We've seen one 7th level character (The Battle MAgus), in the ENTIRE time the game is run.

[Balabanto]

My group casts wall of dell, so I don't have that issue. Calculators come with the laptop.

[Crucible]

Balabanto, your group is not what I would consider munchkin on any level because 1) The GM can handle it. 2) They are within the range of of being manageable. 3) You probably didn't do it for fear of losing your players.

[Crucible]

Balabanto's PC's are deffinatly in the manageable catagory, I don't mind when a PC takes a martial art for there charactor, it really makes sense in Rift's.

I have given martial arts with no strings attached. I'm not too thrilled at the N&SS method of dealing with MA...I thought it was something else...won't say what because the Munchkin Slapper would

[Balabanto]

Oh, the price in my game is usually 1-6 OCC related skills.

[Dunia]

Rahu-Man Mutant(Create Force Field and Immortality: Mega Hero) OCC: Cyber-Knight
Dragon Hatchling (Great Horned) w/Super Energy Expulsion (Special Breath Weapon: Fire) OCC: Samauri
Godling Ley Line Walker/Mind Melter (not joking guys) OCC: Mystic Kuznya

I call and see these munchins and raise with:

Alien Intelligence/Godling/Promethean Cyberknight (that can use all types of magic), trained by the demigod of the group.
Demigod Shun Tzu/Cyberknight, trained personally by lord Coake
Katyr Techno Wizard/Phase Adept
True Atlantean Undead Slayer with some Gun Kata from China book.

And the gamemaster playes the AI/G/CK himself.

[Balabanto]

See, the thing is, if you want more skills, you can give up one of your body hardening techniques or forms for a skill package. That's why I do it.

[Balabanto]

The actual issue is figuring out what every martial art grants and how many skills it's worth. All styles start from HTH basic and cost that much to upgrade, so if you start with Expert or Martial Arts, it's a little easier, but my reasoning for this is actually pretty simple. The two Shaolin Temples in America survived. There's one in central Jersey that still should be standing, and the one in California should still be intact also. From there, most of the other styles just progress naturally. And now they'd be massive PPE nexuses protected by dozens of warrior monks. Of course, many of them are Americanized warrior monks, but that's not really an issue.

I'll cut and paste my list for you folks. It runs off the skill costs from HTH Martial Arts, so if you have basic or expert, add 1-2 respectively.

Martial Arts

The Cost of Ninjas and Superspies Martial Arts is listed below:

If you have a Ninjas and Superspies Martial Art and it is the same as an art from Rifts China, use these rules unless you are FROM Rifts China. You may only have ONE Martial Arts Style unless your OCC says otherwise. (Cyber-Samurai is the only class in the game that currently allows this)

Aikido: 5
Bok Pai (Crane): 4
Ch’a Ch’uan: 4
Chi Hsuan Men: 4
Ch’in Na: 4
Choy Li Fut: 4
Drunken Style: 4
Fong Ngan: 4
Fu-Chiao Pai: 4
Hwarang Do: 5
Isshin-Ryu: 6
Jujitsu: 4 (Yes, this is what you get when you swap out skills for Headhunter Robot Specialist)
Kuo-Ch’uan: 4
Kyokushinkai Karate: 6
Lee Kwan Choo: 3
Li-Chia: 4
Mien-Ch’uan: 4
Monkey Style: 4
Moo-Gi-Gong: 4
Ninjitsu: 6
Pao Pat Mei (Leopard): 3
Sankukai Karate: 4
Shao-Lin Kung Fu: 4
Snake Style Kung Fu: 3
Sumo: 5
Tae Kwan Do: 4
Tai-Chi-Chuan: 4
Taido: 4
T’ang Su: 4
Te: 4
Thai Kick Boxing: 6
Tien-Hsueh Touch Mastery: (Disallowed. Diabolic Evil Not Allowed.)
Wui Wing Chun: You can be a man and take this. Bruce Lee learned it as his first style. So can you. 4
Wu Shu T’Sung: 4 (You can take this art in Rifts China normally assuming you are from the Geofront.)
Xing Chiao: 4
Yu-Sool: 4
Zanji-Shinken Ryu: (See Rifts Japan)

Rifter #3

Bishoudo: 4
Chi-Kung Martial Arts: 1
Chang Di Chuang: 4
Gen Kuei Do: 4
Lei Feng Do: 5
Luan Mo: 4
Mo Long Kung: 4
O-Ken Wa: 4
Yung Huo Jen: 5
Hung Gar Kung Fu: 4
Kalripayit: 4
Kodokan Judo: 4
Wrestling: 4

Rifter #7

Brazilian Jijujitsu: 4
Capoeira: 4
Jeet Kune Do: 3
Kick Boxing: (Not the same as Thai Kick Boxing) 4
Krav Mahga: 4
Munen Muso: 4
Pancracean: 4
Pro Boxing: 4
Savate: 4
Command Sambo: 5
Petjut Kilat Silat/Arnis: 4

Rifter #18

Bersilat: 4

Rifter #30

Arcomoi: 4

[Balabanto]

Exclusivity is always a factor, and how much the art delivers for the skill cost is also a factor. The real problem is that with this comes a price of Synergies. Cyberknight, O-Ken Wa, and True Atlantean is ridiculous. But you can't charge extra skills for stuff like that. You just give the character an XP penalty if you think it's excessive. Most of them weigh in at 4. Things that count are when the first additional attack arrives, how many body hardening techniques there are, when you get them, etc. The ones that grant Automatic Dodge and when they grant it are also weighted.

[Crucible]

Rahu-Man Mutant(Create Force Field and Immortality: Mega Hero) OCC: Cyber-Knight
Dragon Hatchling (Great Horned) w/Super Energy Expulsion (Special Breath Weapon: Fire) OCC: Samauri
Godling Ley Line Walker/Mind Melter (not joking guys) OCC: Mystic Kuznya

I call and see these munchins and raise with:

Alien Intelligence/Godling/Promethean Cyberknight (that can use all types of magic), trained by the demigod of the group.
Demigod Shun Tzu/Cyberknight, trained personally by lord Coake
Katyr Techno Wizard/Phase Adept
True Atlantean Undead Slayer with some Gun Kata from China book.

And the gamemaster playes the AI/G/CK himself.

Oh no...thats just...

[Balabanto]

I did not know that was there, I must have overlooked it. You'll have a statement about it by the end of this post.

Kenpo Karate is a 4. It may look like more, but it only grants 2 additional attacks above the base 4, and they come at level 5 (Which you might not get to) and level 10 (Which you really might not get to)

Time to edit my house rules.

[killhound]

wow gm's who give there players freedom to create what they want who are you and what have you done with the normal opresive gm that likes to hurd the players around like cattle i welcome you

[Crucible]

:shock: wow gm's who give there players freedom to create what they want who are you and what have you done with the normal opresive gm that likes to hurd the players around like cattle i welcome you

I didn't quite get that. May I politely ask you to elaborate?

[Balabanto]

Well, a lot of people accuse me of being a real d**k, a railroading jerk, and other things on various boards. I'm pretty sure that's what he's referring to.

[Dunia]

No offense. What do you allow in character creation???

I alllow any OOC that would fit in the group (or can be modified to fit in the group like a CS Military Specialist who is either undercover, defecting, or a merc). But then again I have less than 10 books and nothing that is unbalanced. But all my players save one is OOCs from R:UE the last one is a Psi Ghost.

When I get more books, I will be forced to change my thought

[Jay05]

My personal oppinion, is that if it's book legal it should be ok. It's when you get into crazy multi-classing that's when a gm in question should put on the breaks. Hard!

[Mercdog]

I loaned my buddy a few of my Rifts book so that he could run a campaign of his own. To explain the setting, let's just say that he's a metal head whose really into Gwar, and he wanted to run Hard Rock Rifts.

The lineup for the player characters was as follows:
A mutant rat rocka-billy with a custom made hot rod.
A Mind Melter who was continually on the recieving end of S&M.
A vagabond pothead/bum who made patchwork armor out of M.D.C. duct tape and had the ability to "Walk it Off" when he was wounded.
The Cyber Commie- I forget the name of the model, but basically he was the full conversion borg from the cover of Warlords of Russia, but painted bright red, and had to pawn his hammer and sickle for repairs.
A "Shazam" type superhero/wizard who renamed all of his spells with at least one word of profanity.
and finally, my character, who was a simple Larmac Saloon Bum that carried at least a duffle bag full of beer with him at all times, and had the Lore: Cartoons and Comic Books skill.

We didn't get to play for long, but we had fun battling the KISS Army until several members of the group decided that they'd rather play on their computers all night.

[Killer Cyborg]

Nice title, but this won't be in term paper format.

Aw!

What do you allow in character creation???

Whatever fits the plot I have in mind.
If it's a murder mystery, then I'm not going to allow telepaths or other people with the power to instantly spot which of the mansion guests bludgeoned Mr. Body in the Conservatory.
If there's a maze, I won't allow teleporters.
If it's the party vs. a CS squad, I'm not going to allow anybody who can kill the entire enemy squad singe-handed.

For that matter, I generally don't like to run for extremely powerful characters because there are simply too many factors involved in the game then.
It takes people too long to sort through their powers and spell/psionic list to find the right power.
It makes it too likely that the PCs will come up with something that bypasses the adventure scenario instead of playing it out.
It makes combat take too long (unless I'm just allowing them to completely dominate every fight).
And it's generally boring.

[glitterboy2098]

I will tell you about 3 of the characters that were created.

Rahu-Man Mutant(Create Force Field and Immortality: Mega Hero) OCC: Cyber-Knight
Dragon Hatchling (Great Horned) w/Super Energy Expulsion (Special Breath Weapon: Fire) OCC: Samauri
Godling Ley Line Walker/Mind Melter (not joking guys) OCC: Mystic Kuznya

Okay, this was my reaction...

i think i'd probably have a hard time not calling them out as munchkins myself.

Rahu-Man Mutant(Create Force Field and Immortality: Mega Hero) OCC: Cyber-Knight

cyber-knight is a men-at-arms OCC, so superpowered mutant's can't take it. a rahu-man could be a super-powered mutant from HU or a cyber-knight, but not both, since the HU mutant is a OCC, not an RCC. and you can't have two OCC's, and only humans can be super-powered mutants in rifts, going by CB1.

Dragon Hatchling (Great Horned) w/Super Energy Expulsion (Special Breath Weapon: Fire) OCC: Samauri

lets see.. dragons can't have super-powers, nor can they have OCC's.

Godling Ley Line Walker/Mind Melter (not joking guys) OCC: Mystic Kuznya

holy screwed up creation batman! not only is LLW and mind melter not a race, but even if they were you'd still only get the godling stats.

[Crucible]

I will tell you about 3 of the characters that were created.

Rahu-Man Mutant(Create Force Field and Immortality: Mega Hero) OCC: Cyber-Knight
Dragon Hatchling (Great Horned) w/Super Energy Expulsion (Special Breath Weapon: Fire) OCC: Samauri
Godling Ley Line Walker/Mind Melter (not joking guys) OCC: Mystic Kuznya

Okay, this was my reaction...

i think i'd probably have a hard time not calling them out as munchkins myself.

Rahu-Man Mutant(Create Force Field and Immortality: Mega Hero) OCC: Cyber-Knight

cyber-knight is a men-at-arms OCC, so superpowered mutant's can't take it. a rahu-man could be a super-powered mutant from HU or a cyber-knight, but not both, since the HU mutant is a OCC, not an RCC. and you can't have two OCC's, and only humans can be super-powered mutants in rifts, going by CB1.

Dragon Hatchling (Great Horned) w/Super Energy Expulsion (Special Breath Weapon: Fire) OCC: Samauri

lets see.. dragons can't have super-powers, nor can they have OCC's.

Godling Ley Line Walker/Mind Melter (not joking guys) OCC: Mystic Kuznya

holy screwed up creation batman! not only is LLW and mind melter not a race, but even if they were you'd still only get the godling stats.

Exactly. His game was horrible he said. It just didn't work out at all.

[Crucible]

One of the reasons that I don't allow those kind of silly charactors is that players tend not to understand the mind set of powerful charactors. They only see the destructive power and not the being behind such a power combo.

My point exactly. This is why when he told me about this I wanted to help him.

[Crucible]

Can you believe that even after I showed the extreme characters that I still got bashed...wow.

[Lenwen]

Can you believe that even after I showed the extreme characters that I still got bashed...wow.

What do you mean ?

They bashed you for showing the online community the type of PC's they choose to play ?

I do not follow what you mean ..

[Crucible]

Earlier a poster implied that I was a "D" word for dissing someone else's fun.

[Crucible]

I'll play devil's advocate here real quick: Crucible, your initial post was extremely dismissive of people who want to play in high-powered games and strongly implied that it is an "inferior" form of fun. There is a wide power spectrum in Rifts, and entirely dismissing the upper end of it as no good is just as bad as people who entirely dismiss the lower end of it as no good. If someone had dismissed low-power games with the same tone you used towards high-power games, I suspect you would have reacted with hostility as some other posters did.

No, I just think that MOST of you on this board in particular have been picked on so bad by other gamers and bullies that you can't even tell when a fellow gamers is just expressing an opinion. There was no dismissive thinking and if any was taken I have to say at this point that its a total personal problem and assumptive as hell. This is the only board to which I have a problem with being understood. Usually for better or worse what I say is very clear.

If anyone took it the wrong way, I am not even going to apologize anymore. That's just sad.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'll play devil's advocate here real quick: Crucible, your initial post was extremely dismissive of people who want to play in high-powered games and strongly implied that it is an "inferior" form of fun. There is a wide power spectrum in Rifts, and entirely dismissing the upper end of it as no good is just as bad as people who entirely dismiss the lower end of it as no good. If someone had dismissed low-power games with the same tone you used towards high-power games, I suspect you would have reacted with hostility as some other posters did.

No, I just think that MOST of you on this board in particular have been picked on so bad by other gamers and bullies that you can't even tell when a fellow gamers is just expressing an opinion. There was no dismissive thinking and if any was taken I have to say at this point that its a total personal problem and assumptive as hell. This is the only board to which I have a problem with being understood. Usually for better or worse what I say is very clear.

If anyone took it the wrong way, I am not even going to apologize anymore. That's just sad.

On the other hand, I'm perfectly willing to dismiss Munchkinism as an invalid form of gaming.
So if anybody out there with illegal and stupidly over-powered characters wants to be dismissed, just let me know.

[Lenwen]

Usually for better or worse what I say is very clear.

I do not understand what you mean by .. Very ..



juss messn witcha ..

[Crucible]

I'll play devil's advocate here real quick: Crucible, your initial post was extremely dismissive of people who want to play in high-powered games and strongly implied that it is an "inferior" form of fun. There is a wide power spectrum in Rifts, and entirely dismissing the upper end of it as no good is just as bad as people who entirely dismiss the lower end of it as no good. If someone had dismissed low-power games with the same tone you used towards high-power games, I suspect you would have reacted with hostility as some other posters did.

No, I just think that MOST of you on this board in particular have been picked on so bad by other gamers and bullies that you can't even tell when a fellow gamers is just expressing an opinion. There was no dismissive thinking and if any was taken I have to say at this point that its a total personal problem and assumptive as hell. This is the only board to which I have a problem with being understood. Usually for better or worse what I say is very clear.

If anyone took it the wrong way, I am not even going to apologize anymore. That's just sad.

On the other hand, I'm perfectly willing to dismiss Munchkinism as an invalid form of gaming.
So if anybody out there with illegal and stupidly over-powered characters wants to be dismissed, just let me know.

Cool man. The bad part though, was that the thread was never meant as a slap on munchkinism. It was supposed to get others to talk about their gaming preferences. Also I'd like to think that my OP said it well. It can be tiresome for a GM.

Thanks man.

[Grell]

The only constant in my GMing style is that my games are character focused. Power level is dictated by the scope and magnitude of what the story is calling the characters to do.

My current Rifts game is focused on the Coalition, so my characters are all CS OCC's. Right now, most powerful character is a Mind Melter agent from Psi Battalion.

My last Rifts game was WAY over the top (for me) despite starting at first level and it was awesome. The group included:

-A cyber knight that was half human/half flamewind dragon (with powers, but no spells or MDC). He had a magical pair of gauntlets that gave him the power of Bio Armor and elemental immunity to cold. He also had a holy demon slayer sword in addition to personal training from an elder cyber knight to give him enhanced sword prowess (fencing on crack). He died fighting his vampiric twin after having his soul broken in two by his father (elder flamewind) in order to facilitate an experiment in draconic vampires.

-A royal frilled hatchling with a suit of rune armor that gave him the ability to maintain any metamorphosis for an unlimited duration, a TW lightblade gauntlet weapon (for punching) and he was ensorcled to the main bad guy which gave him a magic save in the double digits.



-Oh and there was the damon queller that had a TW juicer harness that when combined with his chi gung powers made him a MD creature with THOUSANDS of MDC and lightning punches!

That was an insanely fun game, but they were up against some pretty tough competition.

[Crucible]

The only constant in my GMing style is that my games are character focused. Power level is dictated by the scope and magnitude of what the story is calling the characters to do.

My current Rifts game is focused on the Coalition, so my characters are all CS OCC's. Right now, most powerful character is a Mind Melter agent from Psi Battalion.

My last Rifts game was WAY over the top (for me) despite starting at first level and it was awesome. The group included:

-A cyber knight that was half human/half flamewind dragon (with powers, but no spells or MDC). He had a magical pair of gauntlets that gave him the power of Bio Armor and elemental immunity to cold. He also had a holy demon slayer sword in addition to personal training from an elder cyber knight to give him enhanced sword prowess (fencing on crack). He died fighting his vampiric twin after having his soul broken in two by his father (elder flamewind) in order to facilitate an experiment in draconic vampires.

-A royal frilled hatchling with a suit of rune armor that gave him the ability to maintain any metamorphosis for an unlimited duration, a TW lightblade gauntlet weapon (for punching) and he was ensorcled to the main bad guy which gave him a magic save in the double digits.



-Oh and there was the damon queller that had a TW juicer harness that when combined with his chi gung powers made him a MD creature with THOUSANDS of MDC and lightning punches!

That was an insanely fun game, but they were up against some pretty tough competition.

The point of this thread is in this post right here. Thank you for posting it. Its about how can you maintain it if you allow this. This was not a munchkin slap thread.

My friend that I mentioned earlier ASKED me for help. His game? Failed miserably. Some do not.

Thanks guy. I'm glad you guys had fun.

[cyber-yukongil v2.5]

Earlier a poster implied that I was a "D" word for dissing someone else's fun.

well if you are dissing someone elses fun, then that in fact makes you a "D". If you weren't, then you're not a "D". But if you can't see how your initial post comes off as condenscending to people who like powerful games, well I don't know how to help you. Plus that was a general rant, as the proceeding posters from your initial post were already descending into D-hood.

In the future if you don't want to be mistaken for a D, try; I like X, instead of X provides a better Y. The later elevates your opinion while simo trashing someone elses. Anyways, not worth getting hurt over, especially on a gaming forum, so game on and have fun.

[Crucible]

Earlier a poster implied that I was a "D" word for dissing someone else's fun.

well if you are dissing someone elses fun, then that in fact makes you a "D". If you weren't, then you're not a "D". But if you can't see how your initial post comes off as condenscending to people who like powerful games, well I don't know how to help you. Plus that was a general rant, as the proceeding posters from your initial post were already descending into D-hood.

In the future if you don't want to be mistaken for a D, try; I like X, instead of X provides a better Y. The later elevates your opinion while simo trashing someone elses. Anyways, not worth getting hurt over, especially on a gaming forum, so game on and have fun.

This proves a much earlier point. You guys either don't read threads fully or you get what you want out of it. Nowhere did I say anything about what you're saying. If you took it that way then you have to look inside of yourself.

I know that I said that I see the power creep on this board at times, but thats just me. As above with the Munchkin Slapper he says it all. Now to be real, this was about something else.

We are all nerds to some degree. Yes, I have played football the past 15yrs including HS. Imagine what that had to be like though. A nerd playing Varsity Football. I caught major pain. My friends are far nerdier than I. I say what I say as though I amongst friends, not in competition. I was disrespected for no reason. Why? Because people here are disrespectful by nature. I did not get personal, did I? NO! So it doesn't matter WHAT you try and show me.

Answer me this. If a guy comes up and says something bigoted and I slap him, who goes to jail?

[cyber-yukongil v2.5]

Earlier a poster implied that I was a "D" word for dissing someone else's fun.

well if you are dissing someone elses fun, then that in fact makes you a "D". If you weren't, then you're not a "D". But if you can't see how your initial post comes off as condenscending to people who like powerful games, well I don't know how to help you. Plus that was a general rant, as the proceeding posters from your initial post were already descending into D-hood.

In the future if you don't want to be mistaken for a D, try; I like X, instead of X provides a better Y. The later elevates your opinion while simo trashing someone elses. Anyways, not worth getting hurt over, especially on a gaming forum, so game on and have fun.

This proves a much earlier point. You guys either don't read threads fully or you get what you want out of it. Nowhere did I say anything about what you're saying. If you took it that way then you have to look inside of yourself.

Okay, this was my reaction...

so here we have shock, which one can only assume you were "shocked" at the characters and more pointedly their power level

I tend to keep the guys mortal and not necessarily because I want to, but because the guys like it more. There is more fear and not the idea of dominance.

the last bolded part is what I'm refering to, you are making a statement of fact here, thus elevating your point while trashing someone elses. And don't get me wrong, it isn't my position, I could care less honestly, but what I don't like is the attitude of pride and/or arrogance.

Here at this forum I see traces of the power creep but I refuse to say anything about it most of the time.

that's oftly polite of you from refraining from criticizing someone's fun.

I'd have to say though that I would think that a character made from Rifts: Mercenaries armed with refitted SDC weapons and some MD Ramjet or Explosive rounds can be far more exciting than a character that can kill 40 CS troops alone at first level.

this walks the line of what again I was refering to, but you do say "I would think" but given the overall tone of your total post can you see how it could be construed as such? Even your ending of "No Offense" (which reminds me of Ricky Bobby to be honest) seems to indicate that people may have offense at your statement. So why the surprise?

I know that I said that I see the power creep on this board at times, but thats just me. As above with the Munchkin Slapper he says it all. Now to be real, this was about something else.

ok

We are all nerds to some degree. Yes, I have played football the past 15yrs including HS. Imagine what that had to be like though. A nerd playing Varsity Football. I caught major pain. My friends are far nerdier than I. I say what I say as though I amongst friends, not in competition. I was disrespected for no reason. Why? Because people here are disrespectful by nature. I did not get personal, did I? NO! So it doesn't matter WHAT you try and show me.

nice brushstrokes, you seem to have painted everyone with them. And if you think you got disrespected here, you need to leave your ego at the virtual door. Did you get personal? Not with anyone here, only your friend whom you basically called out as a munchkin and powergamer, which you ought to know has negative conotations in RPG circles, and that is what irked me, not so much you, but that belief that them having fun somehow effects the rest of us and makes our games somehow less. Again a general rant.

Answer me this. If a guy comes up and says something bigoted and I slap him, who goes to jail?

first you'll have to tell what in the frell this has to do with anything?

[Crucible]

Earlier a poster implied that I was a "D" word for dissing someone else's fun.

well if you are dissing someone elses fun, then that in fact makes you a "D". If you weren't, then you're not a "D". But if you can't see how your initial post comes off as condenscending to people who like powerful games, well I don't know how to help you. Plus that was a general rant, as the proceeding posters from your initial post were already descending into D-hood.

In the future if you don't want to be mistaken for a D, try; I like X, instead of X provides a better Y. The later elevates your opinion while simo trashing someone elses. Anyways, not worth getting hurt over, especially on a gaming forum, so game on and have fun.

This proves a much earlier point. You guys either don't read threads fully or you get what you want out of it. Nowhere did I say anything about what you're saying. If you took it that way then you have to look inside of yourself.

Okay, this was my reaction...

so here we have shock, which one can only assume you were "shocked" at the characters and more pointedly their power level

I tend to keep the guys mortal and not necessarily because I want to, but because the guys like it more. There is more fear and not the idea of dominance.

the last bolded part is what I'm refering to, you are making a statement of fact here, thus elevating your point while trashing someone elses. And don't get me wrong, it isn't my position, I could care less honestly, but what I don't like is the attitude of pride and/or arrogance.

Here at this forum I see traces of the power creep but I refuse to say anything about it most of the time.

that's oftly polite of you from refraining from criticizing someone's fun.

I'd have to say though that I would think that a character made from Rifts: Mercenaries armed with refitted SDC weapons and some MD Ramjet or Explosive rounds can be far more exciting than a character that can kill 40 CS troops alone at first level.

this walks the line of what again I was refering to, but you do say "I would think" but given the overall tone of your total post can you see how it could be construed as such? Even your ending of "No Offense" (which reminds me of Ricky Bobby to be honest) seems to indicate that people may have offense at your statement. So why the surprise?

I know that I said that I see the power creep on this board at times, but thats just me. As above with the Munchkin Slapper he says it all. Now to be real, this was about something else.

ok

We are all nerds to some degree. Yes, I have played football the past 15yrs including HS. Imagine what that had to be like though. A nerd playing Varsity Football. I caught major pain. My friends are far nerdier than I. I say what I say as though I amongst friends, not in competition. I was disrespected for no reason. Why? Because people here are disrespectful by nature. I did not get personal, did I? NO! So it doesn't matter WHAT you try and show me.

nice brushstrokes, you seem to have painted everyone with them. And if you think you got disrespected here, you need to leave your ego at the virtual door. Did you get personal? Not with anyone here, only your friend whom you basically called out as a munchkin and powergamer, which you ought to know has negative conotations in RPG circles, and that is what irked me, not so much you, but that belief that them having fun somehow effects the rest of us and makes our games somehow less. Again a general rant.

Answer me this. If a guy comes up and says something bigoted and I slap him, who goes to jail?

first you'll have to tell what in the frell this has to do with anything?

The last quote means that you can't overreact and make an excuse for it and this is what is happening. I called that same FRIEND a munchkin to his face. They have called me a munchkin to mine. If you think that my comments are arrogant then you are either over sensitive, weak, or clueless. They were an opinion which everyone here has, I just wish that it were not taken out of context and as per your last post it has occurred to me that this is what happened. It was a legitimate post and the smiley is for neutral, not shock.

[Crucible]

Just went back to make sure, no edits on my part. You changed my post...

Okay, this was my reaction...

That was not my post and anyone who goes back to look at this on my first post will see it. Now who is being the arrogant jerk?

[cyber-yukongil v2.5]

Just went back to make sure, no edits on my part. You changed my post...

Okay, this was my reaction...

That was not my post and anyone who goes back to look at this on my first post will see it. Now who is being the arrogant jerk?

so instead of shocked , you were...neutral...what emotion where you trying to convey with that? Really, I'm interested in knowing, cause I can only imagine that there was some sort of judgment based on that.
wow, sorry, copy/paste doesn't take smilies with it, whoops. But the fact that that is a major point with you, says it all to me

[cyber-yukongil v2.5]

Earlier a poster implied that I was a "D" word for dissing someone else's fun.

well if you are dissing someone elses fun, then that in fact makes you a "D". If you weren't, then you're not a "D". But if you can't see how your initial post comes off as condenscending to people who like powerful games, well I don't know how to help you. Plus that was a general rant, as the proceeding posters from your initial post were already descending into D-hood.

In the future if you don't want to be mistaken for a D, try; I like X, instead of X provides a better Y. The later elevates your opinion while simo trashing someone elses. Anyways, not worth getting hurt over, especially on a gaming forum, so game on and have fun.

This proves a much earlier point. You guys either don't read threads fully or you get what you want out of it. Nowhere did I say anything about what you're saying. If you took it that way then you have to look inside of yourself.

Okay, this was my reaction...

so here we have shock, which one can only assume you were "shocked" at the characters and more pointedly their power level

I tend to keep the guys mortal and not necessarily because I want to, but because the guys like it more. There is more fear and not the idea of dominance.

the last bolded part is what I'm refering to, you are making a statement of fact here, thus elevating your point while trashing someone elses. And don't get me wrong, it isn't my position, I could care less honestly, but what I don't like is the attitude of pride and/or arrogance.

Here at this forum I see traces of the power creep but I refuse to say anything about it most of the time.

that's oftly polite of you from refraining from criticizing someone's fun.

I'd have to say though that I would think that a character made from Rifts: Mercenaries armed with refitted SDC weapons and some MD Ramjet or Explosive rounds can be far more exciting than a character that can kill 40 CS troops alone at first level.

this walks the line of what again I was refering to, but you do say "I would think" but given the overall tone of your total post can you see how it could be construed as such? Even your ending of "No Offense" (which reminds me of Ricky Bobby to be honest) seems to indicate that people may have offense at your statement. So why the surprise?

I know that I said that I see the power creep on this board at times, but thats just me. As above with the Munchkin Slapper he says it all. Now to be real, this was about something else.

ok

We are all nerds to some degree. Yes, I have played football the past 15yrs including HS. Imagine what that had to be like though. A nerd playing Varsity Football. I caught major pain. My friends are far nerdier than I. I say what I say as though I amongst friends, not in competition. I was disrespected for no reason. Why? Because people here are disrespectful by nature. I did not get personal, did I? NO! So it doesn't matter WHAT you try and show me.

nice brushstrokes, you seem to have painted everyone with them. And if you think you got disrespected here, you need to leave your ego at the virtual door. Did you get personal? Not with anyone here, only your friend whom you basically called out as a munchkin and powergamer, which you ought to know has negative conotations in RPG circles, and that is what irked me, not so much you, but that belief that them having fun somehow effects the rest of us and makes our games somehow less. Again a general rant.

Answer me this. If a guy comes up and says something bigoted and I slap him, who goes to jail?

first you'll have to tell what in the frell this has to do with anything?

The last quote means that you can't overreact and make an excuse for it and this is what is happening. I called that same FRIEND a munchkin to his face. They have called me a munchkin to mine. If you think that my comments are arrogant then you are either over sensitive, weak, or clueless.

cute trolling, but no thanks. Fortunately to the matter of hand, I don't know you from spit, again which is why I didn't point you out specifically in the Rant[sup]TM[/sup], and instead pointed out a frustration with that mindset. Do you have that mindset? If not, stop caring, but if you do, I'm glad it made you angry and maybe you'll look into it and find something about your self.

They were an opinion which everyone here has, I just wish that it were not taken out of context and as per your last post it has occurred to me that this is what happened. It was a legitimate post and the smiley is for neutral, not shock.

great, I don't think anyone ever said it was an illegitimate post.

[Crucible]

Just went back to make sure, no edits on my part. You changed my post...

Okay, this was my reaction...

That was not my post and anyone who goes back to look at this on my first post will see it. Now who is being the arrogant jerk?

so instead of shocked , you were...neutral...what emotion where you trying to convey with that? Really, I'm interested in knowing, cause I can only imagine that there was some sort of judgment based on that.
wow, sorry, copy/paste doesn't take smilies with it, whoops. But the fact that that is a major point with you, says it all to me

Well it should because I was not shocked...I gave him a very neutral look ala the Conan O'Brien/Max W. staredown.

He actually told me about the characters because I was going to help him at point one. The basis was that for a new GM, that may be too much. Many...I do mean many have been overwhelmed by super powered games. Look at the characters, they aren't even game legal. He thought it would be fun. I knew that it would exhaust him and in the end, it didn't work out.

Now, I was hoping that some of you guys who do run power games would actually tell about how your games go. This wasn't supposed to become THIS annoying and stupid. Guys lurk here to get ideas. Palladium has a huge quit ratio because of rules and easy munchkinism. I'm hoping that we can show folks how to have powered games and enjoy them. I stopped running those games because I like long-term games that have a bit of horror. My guys don't get scared when they have living tanks, plus they were the ones who finally said...NO...

Cut me some slack guy. You obviously got from my post what you wanted. I could care less if you have a Chiang-Ku Cyberknight/Samauri with 85 Magic Tattoos and knows all of the spells of legend with 100 Dragon Juicer soldiers who are about to raid Chi-Town. I'd just like to know how you made it successful so that I can pass it along...