Coalition Troop Numbers. 109PA what are they ?

[Lenwen]

Coalition Troop Numbers. 109PA what are they ?

I know there are no real refrences to what the exact amount is persay, so I am asking in "General" terms what is the accepted overall military number of CS forces left after the Tolkeen war as of 109 PA ?

I've talked to a friend on the threads about this an he has stated it was around 1-3 million, but there is no canon refrences to verify that large of a number.

I personally think thier overall troop strength is around 800'000 troops after the war, and I personally feel this is being a VERY generous amount given to them.

What say .. YOU ?????

[Dustin Fireblade]

CWC says 1 million troops, plus 500,000 in training (pg 42 of CWC)

Aftermath pg 138 says they had 405,000 KIA and 1.4 million WIA

So obviously they had continued to expand during the war.




I saw a reference somewhere that says they maintain the Army at 10% of their population, but I'm not sure WHERE I saw that to be honest.

[Lenwen]

CWC says 1 million troops, plus 500,000 in training (pg 42 of CWC)

Aftermath pg 138 says they had 405,000 KIA and 1.4 million WIA

So obviously they had continued to expand during the war.




I saw a reference somewhere that says they maintain the Army at 10% of their population, but I'm not sure WHERE I saw that to be honest.

So according to the Aftermath numbers, prior to the War the CS had a total military of 1.8 million ?

[Kagashi]

More like at least 1.8 million casualties for the duration of the 4 year war.

Using the American Civil War as a template, the union had about 750k in casualties for their 4 year war. Throughout the duration of the war, 2.1 million men served in the Federal Army. If the Federal Army lost the same percentage of men that the CS did, that would put about 2.43 million men served in the 4 year war in the Coalition Army during the SoT. But that is not to say what the standing number is at any one time.

Unlike what the Federal government does after every war (scale down forces), I bet Prosek would KEEP that plused up number of troops so he can continue with the Campaign of Unity.

[Dustin Fireblade]

That would mean every single soldier not KIA was wounded during the war then?

EDIT : Kagashi ninja'd me, and said it a lot better.

[Lenwen]

I see what you guys are both saying.

Durring the entire war the Military had gone threw aprox 1.8 million total troops but that does not mean that at any one time the CS had a military troop strength number OF 1.8 million..

But then that brings me roundabout back to my original quesiton. What is the accepted overall total Troop strength of the CS as of right now just after the Tolkeen War 109 PA ?

[Lenwen]

In the "Assulting the CS Cities" thread Chi-Town,the city and the state, have 400,000 troops plus at its beck and call. Assuming that that's .25 or their total armed forces you would get around 1.8 million.

Those are CWC era Troop numbers.

Not Post Tolkeen war CS troop numbers.

[Crucible]

In the "Assulting the CS Cities" thread Chi-Town,the city and the state, have 400,000 troops plus at its beck and call. Assuming that that's .25 or their total armed forces you would get around 1.8 million.

Those are CWC era Troop numbers.

Not Post Tolkeen war CS troop numbers.

Not even trying to hide the agenda. Man, I would just get a guy Rifted from the 21st Century who has charm, charisma, and political savvy and march him up the the ML and go searching for the New Navy, get all of the folks I could round up and knock at the front door! Give the CS right at 750K...

Are you a player in said campaign or the GM? Needs to know it will shape my next few answers.

[Lenwen]

In the "Assulting the CS Cities" thread Chi-Town,the city and the state, have 400,000 troops plus at its beck and call. Assuming that that's .25 or their total armed forces you would get around 1.8 million.

Those are CWC era Troop numbers.

Not Post Tolkeen war CS troop numbers.

Not even trying to hide the agenda. Man, I would just get a guy Rifted from the 21st Century who has charm, charisma, and political savvy and march him up the the ML and go searching for the New Navy, get all of the folks I could round up and knock at the front door! Give the CS right at 750K...

Are you a player in said campaign or the GM? Needs to know it will shape my next few answers.

GM

[Crucible]

In the "Assulting the CS Cities" thread Chi-Town,the city and the state, have 400,000 troops plus at its beck and call. Assuming that that's .25 or their total armed forces you would get around 1.8 million.

Those are CWC era Troop numbers.

Not Post Tolkeen war CS troop numbers.

Not even trying to hide the agenda. Man, I would just get a guy Rifted from the 21st Century who has charm, charisma, and political savvy and march him up the the ML and go searching for the New Navy, get all of the folks I could round up and knock at the front door! Give the CS right at 750K...

Are you a player in said campaign or the GM? Needs to know it will shape my next few answers.

GM

I see. Happened to me too some years back. Got tired of the CS running things and I couldn't see how. Here's what I'd do. I'd give them the benefit of a doubt and say 1.5 million troops. I would keep in mind a vast recruiting campaign. I would make most of the new recruits Grunts of course and move the others up into different positions. I'd have the CS start it. Then a massive offensive by the ML. Place the players in the center of it somehow and make it almost like the Seige of Tolkeen. Once the smoke clears have either the Republicans or another Sleeper group to seize control, but only in enough time to work on a truce between the ML and the new regime. This will make it more plausible. An uneasy, but lasting New Coalition.

[runebeo]

The causalities for the CS makes no sense at all. They choose to start a war against their own ally in Free Quebec then battle Tolkeen. They initiated both wars and at any time could have pulled out easily cutting their loses. Guess since they got all the nice new vehicles in CWC they wanted to use them. I think the Cs could replace troops at a rate about of nearly a hundred a day for each major training center by opening up the Burbs to heavy recruiting. My dad told me when he went into World War 2 he only received 9 days of training and the rest was counting on your officers to show & tell you what to do.

[Lenwen]

The causalities for the CS makes no sense at all.

Exactly.

How can you go and declare war on two different nations ...

And come out STRONGER .. then you were when you went into both war's in the first place ?
I believe in suspension of disbelief to play a Role playing game ..

But there is a point at which I would like things to be taken seriously .. And the destruction of a MAJOR north american city state would be one of them.

All I ask is for the CS to be actually believeable .. when they do "war" against other city/nations.

1) - Unlimited Resources
2) - Retconning thier Enemies...
3) - Retconning entire species to allow certain military manuevers ..
4) - 400'000+ soilders not eating for a year yet still being alive ...
5) - Unlimited troops .. ( Both human and Dogboy )
6) - Unlimited Skelebots ...
7) - Known Allies of the CS opposition --> NOT <-- going in and assisting them in a military defense of thier home (WoW)
- Unlimited number of Samas magically in storage ...
9) - Incompetent Tolkeen Military Generals ..
10)-Coalition burbs Unlimited supply of human's ..


I understand the CS is supposed to be the biggest baddest dude in town .. But when you have to do the things I listed just to win a war against a single City State .. How bad are you really ?

[Crucible]

The causalities for the CS makes no sense at all.

Exactly.

How can you go and declare war on two different nations ...

And come out STRONGER .. then you were when you went into both war's in the first place ?
I believe in suspension of disbelief to play a Role playing game ..

But there is a point at which I would like things to be taken seriously .. And the destruction of a MAJOR north american city state would be one of them.

All I ask is for the CS to be actually believeable .. when they do "war" against other city/nations.

1) - Unlimited Resources
2) - Retconning thier Enemies...
3) - Retconning entire species to allow certain military manuevers ..
4) - 400'000+ soilders not eating for a year yet still being alive ...
5) - Unlimited troops .. ( Both human and Dogboy )
6) - Unlimited Skelebots ...
7) - Known Allies of the CS opposition --> NOT <-- going in and assisting them in a military defense of thier home (WoW)
- Unlimited number of Samas magically in storage ...
9) - Incompetent Tolkeen Military Generals ..
10)-Coalition burbs Unlimited supply of human's ..


I understand the CS is supposed to be the biggest baddest dude in town .. But when you have to do the things I listed just to win a war against a single City State .. How bad are you really ?

As a writer and a long time fan of Rifts I can truly say that there has never been a lot of info about Tolkeen. There was never a sourcebook, nothing even from Tolkeen until the Seige. This is a writer's way of writing something out that they didn't love all that much while sending a bad guy over the edge of badness. It was to strike a sense of anger into the reader and make the bad guy truly bad. It worked obviously, but its still a writer's trick. Tolkeen was never that major until the war. The writer needed a reason to upgrade THE world power and make them harder to deal with. You can bet there will be more books in the future about the CS and expansion. Also, I always understood that Skelebots WERE in fact practically unlimited in number as were SAMAS (Old Style).

15yrs of Rifts has made me spoiled in some ways. I have to know whats going on next.

This Dyval scenario is set up RIGHT after the SoT. This means that something about all of the worlds and books is about to change permanently. I personally expect to see political changes, but even more we are going to see another side to all of this. I actually have been mulling over the idea that there are secret CS bases hidden all over the place. After the CS was established I do believe that there was an all out push to find NEMA bases. Who says that we are the only ones with a NORAD and Area 51...

[Lenwen]

It was to strike a sense of anger into the reader and make the bad guy truly bad. It worked obviously, but its still a writer's trick.

The same thing could have been just as easily accomplished threw use of actual game information.
With out need of doing the things I listed. It was a given that the CS would win a war against Tolkeen, but even then the writers nearly recreated the CS military as the books went along ..

As I said before I believe in suspension of disbelief .. to a point ..

Now your telling me I have to have a suspension of Disbelief .. for the suspension of Disbelief .. haha

If the only way the CS can achieve military success is by the writers always retconning several factors of any military campaign .. and granting nearly a new military every other book .. just to achieve thier military success .

From everything I've seen in Tolkeen meta-plot .. several things are certain.
1) - The cs has true legitmate .. Script immunity .. beyond anything I've ever seen in any other reading product .
2) - The CS military tactic's are simple put .. outnumber your foe .. This will not work against a military that has vast knowledge of military war's .. nor will it work against a military that is larger then yours.

[Crucible]

It was to strike a sense of anger into the reader and make the bad guy truly bad. It worked obviously, but its still a writer's trick.

The same thing could have been just as easily accomplished threw use of actual game information.
With out need of doing the things I listed. It was a given that the CS would win a war against Tolkeen, but even then the writers nearly recreated the CS military as the books went along ..

As I said before I believe in suspension of disbelief .. to a point ..

Now your telling me I have to have a suspension of Disbelief .. for the suspension of Disbelief .. haha

If the only way the CS can achieve military success is by the writers always retconning several factors of any military campaign .. and granting nearly a new military every other book .. just to achieve thier military success .

From everything I've seen in Tolkeen meta-plot .. several things are certain.
1) - The cs has true legitmate .. Script immunity .. beyond anything I've ever seen in any other reading product .
2) - The CS military tactic's are simple put .. outnumber your foe .. This will not work against a military that has vast knowledge of military war's .. nor will it work against a military that is larger then yours.

In over 20yrs of roleplay I've heard the same being said of every gaming status quo. From the Jedi of Star Wars to the Dragons and Corporations of Shadowrun. The same can be said of the Splugorth if you think about it. Heck man, I hate Alien Intelligences so much that I nearly pretended they didn't exist. I've known Rifts GM's to not even have a Coalition. Just small feudal towns.

I'm wondering if you have an agenda in hopes that this will somehow get the writer's attention and have him to change the CS a little, or if you truly want to "retcon" them out of your game somehow. You don't have to use them. My players rarely see one. 10 CS Grunts are particularly scary for some players. That 80-100 MDC is difficult to overcome.

The human in me see's a point that they make. Maybe some folks would not want to be around psychics, magic, and creepy D-Bees all day. (Fennodi and Uteni whig me out a little). The CS can prey on those fears. The Black man in me see's bigotry on a high and aggravated level. The gamer in me see's a plot foil lingering.

I once made a group called the Northeast Federation. They had views a lot like the NGR and their own tech. Not super high and mostly reverse engineered. They mostly had issues with Creatures of Magic and Supernatural Creatures seeing magic users and psychics as human. Even non-humans were seen as human. Human became a word meaning "Mortal" in their wording. I started noticing that there was way too much of a comfort level for players involved and I shook things up with terrorist attacks from "somewhere". They were all magic attacks and soon the NEF was pushing away their magic user causing a rift with their Native American friends. All out war occured down the road. It was the work of the Vanguard.

The writers didn't "retcon" the CS. The CS are a "retcon tool" by writer definition. Thats what they are for. To cause change. Catalysts. You see what I'm saying?

[Shark_Force]

on a side note, that's really just how many troops they have available for conquest. they'll have lots more sitting in various bases, checkpoints, outposts, etc spread throughout the coalition states keeping all their other enemies from attacking.

[Crucible]

Also, in case you were wondering. The CS secretly perfected the cloning process and have been mass producing human beings for their army for years now.

This process also seems to work on metals and materials required for mass production of war vehicles and ammunition, which are tied to skelebot factories being operated completely by other skelebots which run 24/7!

Cloning is in Lone Star correct?

[Kagashi]

what Lobo said.

[Dunia]

The causalities for the CS makes no sense at all.

Exactly.

How can you go and declare war on two different nations ...

And come out STRONGER .. then you were when you went into both war's in the first place ?
I believe in suspension of disbelief to play a Role playing game ..

But there is a point at which I would like things to be taken seriously .. And the destruction of a MAJOR north american city state would be one of them.

All I ask is for the CS to be actually believeable .. when they do "war" against other city/nations.

1) - Unlimited Resources
2) - Retconning thier Enemies...
3) - Retconning entire species to allow certain military manuevers ..
4) - 400'000+ soilders not eating for a year yet still being alive ...
5) - Unlimited troops .. ( Both human and Dogboy )
6) - Unlimited Skelebots ...
7) - Known Allies of the CS opposition --> NOT <-- going in and assisting them in a military defense of thier home (WoW)
8) - Unlimited number of Samas magically in storage ...
9) - Incompetent Tolkeen Military Generals ..
10)-Coalition burbs Unlimited supply of human's ..

I understand the CS is supposed to be the biggest baddest dude in town .. But when you have to do the things I listed just to win a war against a single City State .. How bad are you really ?

1) Unlimited Resources: This declaration of war was nothing made up in haste, Emperor Prosec has a very good industrial base both inside the fortified city itself, and all the burbs that is considered loyalists. I would not doubt that if the Emperor asked/told them to produce armors and war material, that they would deny him it. Also Chitown has a lotsof allies with the other CS states that likeways have a strong industry. I honestly believe that he has prepared himself for at least 3-5 years producing war material and yeast-food. An example in our own world, The Swedish military has lots of tanks, APCs and even airplanes in storage that is not used, and will not be used, unless there is a war. We have to my knowledge two entire airbases = 60-65 planes hidden deep in moutain hangars. The reason I know it is that I did my military service near one of them. Two good examples of this: During the Crisis in Congo 1961 UN needed troops and airplanes in order to protect the civilians etc when a province wanted independence from the rest of Congo, just after Congo had gained its own independence - In responce to the UN's request Sweden send one entire airbase worth of personel and equipment after just 4 days after the request came, and during the Finish/Soviet winter war during the WW2, Sweden operated a "volonteer airbase" to defend the finish in finish territories (It was never a swedish ilitary base, more a loan of aircraft to a baron and those who wanted to fight for the finnish - Sweden was neutral in the war (yeah right)).

So with the question about unlimited resources, I am fairly certain that Emperor Prosek has prepared and stockpiled enough resources until the time was right.

2) Retconning their enemies: From what I have read, Tolkeen was never that well defined, nor really big in population if you compare with CS. What Tolkeen had was lots of magi and dragons, but with enough soldiers, even those can be defeated.

3) To this I have no idea what you are talking about, please elaborate.

4) - 400'000+ soilders not eating for a year yet still being alive: Please elaborate. If you refer to the main army, I believe that They had enough stockpiles before the war started. If you talk about that general that fled northwards and then came back to be a hero, I am certain that they hunted and gathered food. Any infantry/cavalry soldier would have basic knowledge how to survive. They may not have had dinners a'la Ritz hotel, but enough to survive.

5) - Unlimited troops .. ( Both human and Dogboy ): In the adventure books about ChiTown burbs, it says that to those 3 milion people living there, mostly waiting to be citizens, that CHiTown went out with an offer saying: Enlist in the army and you as well as a member of your family/friend will be citizens. I am fairly certain that this made the ranks swell quite big, also cloning (if they have the technology as well as mercenaries. I bet that the CS tried to recruit non CS Psi Stalkers as they are a good defence/offence against magi and supernatural. Also, by leaving the Free Quebeck frontier gave an enormous boost to the army at the Tolkeen frontier.

6) - Unlimited Skelebots ...: See point 1

7) - Known Allies of the CS opposition --> NOT <-- going in and assisting them in a military defense of thier home (WoW): I do not know that much about the Federation of Magic, but I know that both Lazlo and New Lazlo would not want to enter into a conflict with CS. It seems as if they try to remain neutral. And if the Federation of Magic would attack, there are still nations that would like to target them in retalitory raids and wars - should they attack CS. (Free Quebeck would love to crush FoM. As it says in RUE (page 24) When Traversing our Modern World was first published, in 100 P.A. The Coalition States were a loose-knit allegiance between 5 industrial kingdoms who rose out of the ashes of the Great Cataclysm in North America (USA and Canada). In nine short years, however, the CS has become united by fear and war. If FoM would attack, the other states would rush to its defence, and so would Free Quebeck. They might not be CS any longer, but they do not wish their strongest ally to be overrun by magi and demons.

8) - Unlimited number of Samas magically in storage ... see point 1.

9) - Incompetent Tolkeen Military Generals .. They might be incompenent, there has been many of these in the history of man. Tolkeen relied on magic and sorcery. I do not doubt that they would not see CS as a threat, but I doubt that they really understood the might of CS.

10)-Coalition burbs Unlimited supply of human's .. It says that there is about 2-3 milion people in the burbs.

[Dustin Fireblade]

[

3) To this I have no idea what you are talking about, please elaborate.

4) - 400'000+ soilders not eating for a year yet still being alive: Please elaborate. If you refer to the main army, I believe that They had enough stockpiles before the war started. If you talk about that general that fled northwards and then came back to be a hero, I am certain that they hunted and gathered food. Any infantry/cavalry soldier would have basic knowledge how to survive. They may not have had dinners a'la Ritz hotel, but enough to survive.

Yes he's talking about CS General Holmes leading his entire command into the Xiticix Hivelands in the aftermath of the "Sorcerer's Revenge" and I think you are grossly over-estimating their ability to forage for food. Not enough to feed 300,000 anyway.

Also, since the entire command had been in combat BEFORE doing their adventure in the hive, how did they repair combat damage and restock ammo such as rail guns and missiles?

[Dunia]

Yes he's talking about CS General Holmes leading his entire command into the Xiticix Hivelands in the aftermath of the "Sorcerer's Revenge" and I think you are grossly over-estimating their ability to forage for food. Not enough to feed 300,000 anyway.

Also, since the entire command had been in combat BEFORE doing their adventure in the hive, how did they repair combat damage and restock ammo such as rail guns and missiles?

It says on page 110 of Shadows of Evil that General Holmes did make it appear as if he was fleeing in a disorganized manner, to make the Tolkeens not bothering to persuit him. So he might have organized it such a manner that he had enough food and water for "his retreat". And if 25% of his army was destroyed and the food stores survived the xitricks then he could survive with his troops so much longer.

[Kagashi]

As for the original intent of the post, after reading everybody's responses, I'd say 1.5 million standing army, post-SoT, seems to be a logical number to use for the sake of argument.

[Kagashi]

Okay, fine...ill contribute to the topic swap of this thread:

If you take a CS grunt, and put him up against the magic equivalent (for sake of argument, lets say a Ley Line Walker) and both are of equal level of exp and had them fight, what you will find is, the LLW needs to be more cunning than the CS grunt, because if they go toe to toe, the grunt will win due to the fact he has more MDC, deals more damage, and can deal that damage faster than the Ley Line Walker can.

If, for what ever reason the CS troop doesnt kill the LLW in the opening shots of the battle, and the battle goes to a draw at the end of the day, both men recoop. The CS grunt gets a nice 8 hours of sleep and a hot meal, but is still just as damaged as he was at the end of the battle, and has less ammo than the day prior. The LLW on the other hand completely regenerates his armor AND ammo just by sleeping. Now, the LLW has the upper hand. Even more so if the LLW was a D-Bee who has natural MDC. Nevermind if this guy is a DRAGON. The only way the CS grunt can replenish his MDC and Ammo is by his buddy bringing him supplies, which costs manpower, resources, and money.

Magnify this scenario on a global scale and you will find that there logically should be no way the CS could have won that war past Book 2 with the numbers presented in CWC and RMB. It is fairly obvious that PB intended to keep the CS as their favorite world power, and they also needed to sell 6 books instead of 2. Hence, their resources were, in effect, magically plussed up to compensate. I agree that this was some writers handwavin' to stack the end result to their wishes.

Now. that being said, there are a lot of factors that many people who are on the anti-SoT side of fandom rarely see. What DOES make sense is, the CS was in a two front war at the time. With the war in Free Quebec ending, not only was the CS able to reallocate her resources to the Western Front, but their former enemies HELPED the CS quash the monster threat. This may be what explains why the was wasnt ended in book 2.

Additionally, Miracles DO happen in warfare. As unbelievable as the Holmes maneuver really was, it was still possible. In the case of the Siege of Tolkeen, it did happen. The bugs are instinctual animals. Holmes (and humans in general) are logically thinking beings. I do not find it hard to believe that Holmes didnt recognize patterns in the behavior of the well-studied Xiticix (by 109 PA) and use that to his advantage.

The other thing to consider is, the numbers we see of population in CWC describe for the most part the CS CITIZENS, not the millions of people living in the burbs surrounding the giant armored cities. Many of the CS soldiers are men and women who are SEEKING citizenship (or at least citizenship for their families). A lot of those numbers of extra troops came from non-citizens and didnt count against the citizen population. Additionally, topics like the food production can be curbed somewhat when you consider the manpower available out of the population of non-citizens. Countries today do that with non-citizens all the time. Plus, do not discount the advantage of automated labor from that like Skelebots and NG Labor Drones (even with out counting the extra numbers).

[glitterboy2098]

The unlimited skeletal bot thing has always one of those things thats bugged me. According to the origanal SB1 the total SB production a month is just over 3000, and 3yrs of production would only produce like 106k. In the tolkeen war there were much,much more than that.

the production in the original SB1 only discusses production circa ~PA100 at Chi-town (288 a month) and Lone Star (864 a month, with two more factories coming online to up the rate to 2592 month)
they don't say when the new factories broke ground, so we can't be sure how fast they could expand their production.
nor does it mention the state of Iron Heart, which we now know is probably the industrial powerhouse of the CS. one would imagine that when Iron Heart got ahold of the plans, they retooled factories to churn them out en-mass. likewise i would imagine building skelebot factories in the other Chi-town area fortress cities (remember, chi-town is just the largest of 6 in it's area), as well as places like CS Missouri.

still, it does stretch pluasibility some.

[Mack]

Doesn't bug me as much as:

Over 3.2 million PA-06A SAMAS are stockpiled;

Maybe they taught the Skelebots to build Sams?

[Mack]

Doesn't bug me as much as:

Over 3.2 million PA-06A SAMAS are stockpiled;

Maybe they taught the Skelebots to build Sams?

You know, that is a little more buggy, than the skeletal bot thing.

Here's something to demonstrate the scale: That's 2 Sams for every member of today's US military, both active and reserve.

[Lenwen]

The unlimited skeletal bot thing has always one of those things thats bugged me. According to the origanal SB1 the total SB production a month is just over 3000, and 3yrs of production would only produce like 106k. In the tolkeen war there were much,much more than that.

the production in the original SB1 only discusses production circa ~PA100 at Chi-town (288 a month) and Lone Star (864 a month, with two more factories coming online to up the rate to 2592 month)
they don't say when the new factories broke ground, so we can't be sure how fast they could expand their production.
nor does it mention the state of Iron Heart, which we now know is probably the industrial powerhouse of the CS. one would imagine that when Iron Heart got ahold of the plans, they retooled factories to churn them out en-mass. likewise i would imagine building skelebot factories in the other Chi-town area fortress cities (remember, chi-town is just the largest of 6 in it's area), as well as places like CS Missouri.

still, it does stretch pluasibility some.

Even WITH those other factories comming online to produce up to 2,529 Skelebots per month .. and say they opened up in January of 100 PA.

2'529 x 12 months = 30'348 per year. We know the War started in 105 PA. So that gives the CS a total of ..
30'348 x 5 years = 151'740 Skelebots. This is at 105 PA.

Yet at the opening salvo of the Tolkeen war, Skelebot numbered into the half a million mark or better..

Which means at LEAST .. 348'000 Skelebot's were created out of the wave of a pen, with out consideration's or even mention in any other book of the numbers in question, which means they were in fact handwaviumed in for the CS to be able to defeat a single City State.

The more and more that I discuss this Tolkeen meta-plot, the more an more I personally see that the CS is not as powerful as thier "Depicted" to be.

If they were .. they would never have had to hand wavium, nearly 350'000 Skelebots into exsistance, or hand wavium 3.4 million old styled "Stored" Samas... or .. Retcon the Xiticix species to allow the Gen Holmes manuver ..

All 3 things were hand waviumed FOR the CS to win, a war they would otherwise have lost . This is my personal opinion.

[Dunia]

The causalities for the CS makes no sense at all.

Exactly.

How can you go and declare war on two different nations ...

And come out STRONGER .. then you were when you went into both war's in the first place ?

Say it with me: "Author Fiat"

Sweden did that in the 1600's we declared war both on the Papal States as well as France and we came out stronger than we were before the war, though our war with russia in the 3 front war made us lose everything we had gained (Polen, North-central germany and west russia. But we did invade istanbul.

[Balabanto]

I'm not a fan of the "Crafted out of Handwavium" CS numbers either, especially since I see what they can do to groups when played smart. My players hear the words "Coalition Death Squad" and cower.

[wildhood]

Do not forget to add new troopers just out of basic finishing there training.

[Vrykolas2k]

Troop numbers... why, as many as they need, evidently...

[Lenwen]

Ok people I am not looking for troops that are not comming out of training .. I am looking for a rough estimate after the fall of Tolkeen.

If thier still in training .. as the end of the War .. that means they are not what I am asking about.

If thier "Just" finishing Basic Training .. and thier not speficially mentioned .. by any book .. that means they are not what I am asking about.

I am looking for a rough estimated number of Troops. Not anything else. Just what they have in active troops at the end of the war.

[Shark_Force]

the coalition can make the credit worth as much relative to a SAMAS as they want, but if there isn't enough of a given commodity (say, bread), the credit will still go down in value, whether or not it's worth the same relative to a SAMAS. if you put more money out there, then someone becomes willing to pay more to get the same product, especially if that product is in limited supply and is a necessity for survival.

sure, the CS might come out with a bigger army then they started with... but they're not going to fix their economy by adding a few 0s onto the number of credits out there. if they want a strong economy, they have to produce, just like anyone else.

[Lenwen]

I've gone off of what the books from the Tolkeen metaplot numbers were .. added and subtracted .. and came up with slightly less then 500k total troop strength left in the CS military as of the end of the War. That is human troops. Not Skelebots, not Dogboys .. Human troops.

And this is what I consider to be a canon number .. given the numbers from the tolkeen metaplot books.

EDIT: I've also generously thought personally the CS military troop strength as of the end of the War itself was around 500-800k human troops. Dogboys and Skelebots could double that troop strength overall but I am again talking strickly human troops.

[Shark_Force]

I've gone off of what the books from the Tolkeen metaplot numbers were .. added and subtracted .. and came up with slightly less then 500k total troop strength left in the CS military as of the end of the War. That is human troops. Not Skelebots, not Dogboys .. Human troops.

And this is what I consider to be a canon number .. given the numbers from the tolkeen metaplot books.

EDIT: I've also generously thought personally the CS military troop strength as of the end of the War itself was around 500-800k human troops. Dogboys and Skelebots could double that troop strength overall but I am again talking strickly human troops.

hmmm... if you're talking about troops available for attacking other nations, sure. they'd have a fair amount more troops stationed in various outposts, fortresses, cities, etc all across the coalition states. but yeah, if you're saying "how many troops could they invade with right at the end of the war" that may work.

given them half a year to finish training what's already in the pipeline (and possibly troops they may add as well), and to patch up their injured with cybernetics/bionics as appropriate, and that number will change a great deal, of course.

any idea how many dog boys and skelebots they have available to add to that?

[Lenwen]

I've gone off of what the books from the Tolkeen metaplot numbers were .. added and subtracted .. and came up with slightly less then 500k total troop strength left in the CS military as of the end of the War. That is human troops. Not Skelebots, not Dogboys .. Human troops.

And this is what I consider to be a canon number .. given the numbers from the tolkeen metaplot books.

EDIT: I've also generously thought personally the CS military troop strength as of the end of the War itself was around 500-800k human troops. Dogboys and Skelebots could double that troop strength overall but I am again talking strickly human troops.

hmmm... if you're talking about troops available for attacking other nations, sure. they'd have a fair amount more troops stationed in various outposts, fortresses, cities, etc all across the coalition states. but yeah, if you're saying "how many troops could they invade with right at the end of the war" that may work.

given them half a year to finish training what's already in the pipeline (and possibly troops they may add as well), and to patch up their injured with cybernetics/bionics as appropriate, and that number will change a great deal, of course.

Well said and I agree with you.

any idea how many dog boys and skelebots they have available to add to that?

For dogboys I've always did about a 1/10th overall number .. meaning take the human # and divide it by 1/10th there in lies the answer for the Dogboy's ..

And up till the Tolkeen metaplot I've always thought the CS overall number of Skelebots was around the same .. but it appears that the Skelebots (over a million I think were destroyed) are in fact a force multiplier for the CS that they simply employ .. enmass now .. I'd say a 2 skelebot to 1 human troop overall number would be around the right number.

This are only numbers that I use in my game. Canonly speaking I have little to no clue about the true numbers of either the Skelebots or the Dogboy's .. but needlessly said .. thier numbers are sufficent enough to drive the storyline of North American war's for the CS .. hehe.

meaning they (the CS) will ALWAYS .. have "JUST" enough to gaurd thier bases .. and homes "AND" have just enough to turn the tide of war in thier favor .. this is what I think is canon heh

[Mack]

any idea how many dog boys and skelebots they have available to add to that?

For dogboys I've always did about a 1/10th overall number .. meaning take the human # and divide it by 1/10th there in lies the answer for the Dogboy's ..

Soucebook 1, Original Version, p13: "The Dog Pack mutant animals account for 10 percent of the CS's overall population and that number is growing by the day."

On the previous page:
-- Total CS Human Population: est 14 million

Therefore there are at least 1.4 million Dog Boys in year 102 PA.

[Lenwen]

There are only 10 CS soliers,everybody else is just an actor whos payed to preatend to fight back until one of the real CS soldiers shows up to take care of the problem. 3 were sent against Tolkeen and 2 against FQ.

I like this haha really funny

[Lenwen]

Taking the numbers of the CS "Burbs" booklet ..

The numbers of the Current Coalition military .. and the use of its burb population to inflat said military .. is Impossible .

The numbers of the Coalitions Human population of the Military .. does not corraspond with what the Burbs booklet says are in the larger burbs ..

Does anyone else see this other then myself ?

[Lenwen]

Taking the numbers of the CS "Burbs" booklet ..

The numbers of the Current Coalition military .. and the use of its burb population to inflat said military .. is Impossible .

The numbers of the Coalitions Human population of the Military .. does not corraspond with what the Burbs booklet says are in the larger burbs ..

Does anyone else see this other then myself ?

They got them the same place Tolkeen got all those extra troops. You know the hundreds of thousands of random people who just showed up to fight the CS. Who then for unknown reasons left after their first major victory. As a quick history lesson I will let you know that when things are going well the troops tend to stick around.

I for one consider it highly suspect .. that the CS military can Balloon up to Several Million at one point in time .. and write it off as "Burb" additions ..

When in the "Burbs" book itself .. states the burbs are all small ..

This is just not adding up at all ..

[Shark_Force]

rift teleportation costs 200 PPE (100 if you're a shifter). throw in a ley line (or nexus) at midnight or something like that... it's not that unbelievable. with circle of travel spells established, all shifters, ley line walkers, and temporal raiders can teleport between 2 specific points for 60 PPE and bring 2 people along each time (those points can be below ground in bunkers built by earth warlocks with the help of earth elementals... you did happen to notice that there were a lot of warlocks on the tolkeen side of things, right? who were presumably ensuring the well-being of their elemental friends was being taken care of?) rift to limbo can pop you out anywhere along a ley line connected to whatever nexus you happen to be on, and costs only 160 (half for shifters and ley line rifters).

additionally, while the CS forces may be fast, they are not instant. additionally, even their fast troops still have to go through all the space in between. teleporting troops don't have to deal with minor details like "there's a huge army between us and our destination"

and the only reason tolkeen needed all of the ridiculous handwavium (the triangular defense system was unexpected, and helpful, but really required; you can pull off some pretty impressive stuff with many other spells) was because the CS pulled an army out of nowhere. they suddenly upgraded every single unit in their army, developed new military doctrines, trained hundreds thousands of new troops in those new vehicles/power armor/weapons/armor, and not so much as a whisper reached the ears of anyone else.

regardless, the entire situation was ridiculous. both side came out of nowhere with huge armies that nobody had even heard about (though at least with shifters summoning allies, the daemonix wouldn't be too unreasonable. or, y'know, they wouldn't have been if they hadn't all been equipped with TW bionics) and it was just too unbelieveable...

[Crazy Lou]

They might be incompenent, there has been many of these in the history of man. Tolkeen relied on magic and sorcery. I do not doubt that they would not see CS as a threat, but I doubt that they really understood the might of CS.

Well, it is a bit hard to understand a supreme being's bestowed script immunity. I think their military leaders we just out matched by the unlimited power on the side of the CS, lol. From the very beginnning there was no real question that CS was going to win afterall...

[Crazy Lou]

In regards to where the CS gets all their resources: Who's to say that a vanguard sleeper agent didn't "discover" some huge untapped mine location that has all the metals necessary for all their equipment and stuff? It would take the CS ages to discover that the mine is actally an infinite underground dimension full of resources like Geofront or Takematsu has... And by then the command would probably be so dependent on it that it'd be covered up. If you start with the assumption that the CS has whatever it needs to win, it's easy to use the RIFTS settng to make up some excuse why it is entirely possible that they actually DO have absolutely anything they need.

On the skelebot question: who's to say their factories and manufacturing process weren't upgraded and streamlined and their production rates didn't hugely increase over time? Maybe it was ~2600/month in 100 PA, but maybe by 103PA it was 26,000/month?

[Crazy Lou]

just because it's said they had the power armor stockpiled doesn't mean they were fielding all of them at once. it just was an easy way to say that even if the pilots all have their suits totally smacked down at the end of each day, that they can just get in a new one, instead of needing the time and effort of repairing them. Basically, it took 1 line of text to say give a reason why the CS didn't have to worry about running out of PAs.

As to the other types of SAMAS, I dunno, as I don't have all those books.

In regards to the x10 production capabilities per factory: I picked that multiplier arbitrarily. If in 3 years the production HAD actually increased that much, then they'd have had way more Skelebots than they needed for the Tolkeen war (as per numbers indicated above in this thread anyway, which I assume is the number from the books). 25k/month (if you used the x10 multiplier) would give you 600,000 skelebots in the remaining 2 years alone. That's not counting the # produced from 100 PA to 103, during which time the rate of production was increasing (so probably about another 400,000 or so in those 3 years). That's a lot more than the 500k or so indicated above. A multiplier of x10 wouldn't've been necessary, i just picked that as an easy #. Also, there could've been a combination at work: building more factories, expanding existing factories, and improving manufacturing process/overall per-factory output? Those together could've generated ~500,000 in the 5 years from 100-105 PA. Finally, does SB1 say anything about how many than had already as of 100 PA? You'd have to add those too.

[Shark_Force]

the CS isn't really ever not at war. it's just that most of the time, they're at war with groups that aren't nations, and those groups don't get any official notice, they just get shot in the face with a laser rifle.

the skelebot i don't see as being something they would artificially limit the numbers on. you don't have to store them, they don't need a pilot or an operator, nobody has to be trained in the use of a skelebot... you just send them someplace where you don't like everybody, and tell them to shoot everything that resists, looks like it might resist, looks like it could be used by something that might resist, or just isn't human (generally in that order).

[Mack]

Also as to the 3.2 million old samas suits. Since the samas used to be the only PA for the CS they would have a lot of them in reserve. It is not unusual for countries to build up (sometimes unintentionally as happened in WW2 in the US with various items) huge reserves of material. Just do some reading on the USSR warstocks that they had positioned around eastern Europe and parts of the Soviet Union.

3.2 million SAMAS equates to two suits for every member of the active duty US Military... and the CS only has a population of 14 million people (only 10 million if you subtract Free Quebec).

[Mack]

Also as to the 3.2 million old samas suits. Since the samas used to be the only PA for the CS they would have a lot of them in reserve. It is not unusual for countries to build up (sometimes unintentionally as happened in WW2 in the US with various items) huge reserves of material. Just do some reading on the USSR warstocks that they had positioned around eastern Europe and parts of the Soviet Union.

3.2 million SAMAS equates to two suits for every member of the active duty US Military... and the CS only has a population of 14 million people (only 10 million if you subtract Free Quebec).

I don't think anyone is saying they could deploy them all at one time. Rather that as they say in the book they are in reserve. I tend to agree that the number is high but it is not impossible. For an example the Soviet Union built over 50 million AK-47s for red army use. That does not include export or those built by other countries, or made by russia after the fall of the soviet union, nor newer Kalashnikov variants(ak-74, etc). Did they really need 10 times more ak-47s than they had military personnel?

I wouldn't call an AK-47 a valid comparison with a SAMAS. More accurate would be how many tanks they stashed away for a rainy day.

[Mack]

I wouldn't call an AK-47 a valid comparison with a SAMAS. More accurate would be how many tanks they stashed away for a rainy day.

Ok lets compare tanks then. How many tanks did the soviet union have in reserve vs what they had in the field at any one time? Hell even look at the US reserves of tanks vs fielded.. Even the US has reserves many times greater than fielded strength.

The total production run of M1 Abrams tanks from 1980 until today is only 9,000.

Comparing a power armor suit to a tank is probably a bad choice as it is a personnel "one man" weapon system. Even during war times stockpiles of reserves have a tendency to grow. The USSR built over 105k tanks in WW2, they never fielded them all at once, and ended the war with more tanks than they started with.

Right. So Russia had around 105,000 tanks with a population of around 100 million... and we agree that's an excessive number. That's one tank for every 952 people

The CS has 3,200,000 SAMAS (only counting war reserves) with a population of only 14 million. That's one SAMAS for every 4.4 people. That's a rate of over 217 times higher than the Russian rate which was excessive to begin with.

[Shark_Force]

1) a SAMAS is not infantry. you may not have noticed, but they fly. also, the CS army *has* infantry. shockingly enough, they're exactly what the word means (really, who'd have guessed?) a dead boy soldier is infantry. SAMAS armor is probably actually closer to a cross between attack helicopter and an armored hum-vee with a heavy machine gun mounted on it. which is beside the point, in any case.

2) speaking of the point, the point is that the number of SAMAS produced is ridiculous. with those kinds of quantities, you would expect it to be issued to every last soldier. but it's not. it's issued to very few soldiers. most of them make do with body armor, a laser rifle, and a few grenades. consider, the soviet army, with a substantially larger population to work with, produced *only* 105,000 tanks, and presumably used at least some of them. if they stuffed each and every tank like it was a clown car with soldiers, they would still have enough soldiers to cover every last available spot on top of those tanks, and then they would still have probably had enough soldiers left over to hitch a few trailers behind each tank and pull those too. even then, they probably would have still had enough soldiers that they'd need additional vehicles.

in order for the CS to actually issue all of those suits to the soldiers at the end of the siege on tolkeen, each soldier (of those who don't already have one or aren't piloting a giant robot or other vehicle that prevents effective use of the SAMAS) would probably have to be wearing 2 SAMAS suits. some would have to wear 3. if you include dog boys, and maybe skelebots, that is.

had they announced that the CS had enough laser rifles and dead boy armor stockpiled for 3 million soldiers, that would've been a lot, but probably not so ridiculously incomprehensible. heck, had they announced that the coalition had enough to outfit an army of 3 million including the various robot vehicles, power armors, sky cycles, etc in storage, it might have strained believability a bit, but wouldn't have been too bad. over 3 million SAMAS though? that's a bit much for a suit of armor that is only available to a select few in the CS military.