Siege on Tolkeen Series

[Pepsi Jedi]

Can you cite a source that show's Tolkeen forces .. raping entire Coalition towns .. and attacking Coalition citizens enmass as per your above implication ?

It was a hypothetical example.

It is, however, what the CS did...

You'll never get anywhere trying to point out the obvious evil of the CS and its actions when someone's stubbornly determined to defend the indefensible. The CS's behavior is no more capable of being spinned as justifiable than the attack on the Twin Towers because 'well you evil Americans are trying to destroy us' when the average American just doesn't care what's going on in the rest of the world and is fine with it burning as long as the US is left alone. The average Tolkeenite really didn't care what the CS was doing to its own people and others as long as they were left alone. But like anyone who isn't a fanatical pacifist when attacked by a ruthless and implacable murderous foe fought back and when the fight dragged on and seeing the evils their enemy engaged in chose to fight fire with fire and demons with demons.

False. Not everyone will willingly jump into bed with demons to win. And here lies one of many faults in your logic. You assume everyone will default to unholy alliance with unthinkable evil just to win.

That is not true. Until you open your eyes and accept "TEAMING UP WITH DEMONIC ARMIES IS NOT OK" and "NOT EVERYONE WILL WILLINGLY TEAM UP WITH INHUMAN DEMONIC ARMIES" the rest of your stuff is irrelevant. Those facts need to be internalized. Until then your views are so clearly skewed that they mean nothing.

You cannot claim that ALL people would willingly team up with Demonic armies. Because they wouldn't. I wouldn't. Many people wouldn't. Many would rather die than do so.

So your claims are wrong based on that fact alone (( Among others)).

The average member of the CS is indoctrinated to being effectively evil, they grow up with no idea or concepts of anything being worthy of existence but the members of the CS and that it's okay to kill other sentient beings for no other reason than their education or their ancestors having not been native to the planet before being rifted against their wills to Earth.

Yet another untruth. You're black washing the entire group because you like to use them as villains. The average member of the CS is a normal person. Some are good. Some are evil. You're saying the entire nation is evil. They aren't. They have their own ideas and concepts. Many would call them heroes. You're trying to spin it one way. Not very effectively.

While the CS army can make for great villains in some games, it's beyond just 'Duh huh dhey bad guyz. Let's shoot um and loot um" which is the mentality of a lazy mind. You're stuck in D&D dungeon crawl mentality and viewpoint.

They may treat each other okay enough but they're like that mix of alien survivors of that destroyed spacecraft in Heroes Unlimited, seeing everything but humans as worthy of living and so hate-filled as to engage in genocidal acts against all humans for the actions of a few

Can you honestly not see their (( the CS's)) Viewpoint of being surrounded by inhuman invaders and trying to retake Earth for Humans? Honestly? You don't get that that's how they see themselves?

So no, the CS is not a group of decent people being portrayed badly by 'CS haters',

Actually yes. Most are decent people. You're also failing to divorce the CS nation from the upper echelon of the CS military high command. And only some of those. That's the same as saying every person in Afghanistan are evil murderous terrorists. Clearly they're not. Or saying every person in Iran are meglomanical evil sadistic idiots.. clearly they're not. Their leaders may be. Upper levels of their militaries might be. But the average person is not.

they're educated to a man to fear and hate anything not approved by their government and their dictator.

Fear yes. Hate.... perhaps. But yes. Very much are they indoctrinated by a seemingly masterful propaganda machine. (( though we see little application of it. Just mention that it's there and it works well))

Some may manage to escape that if exposed to different views long enough to see through the lies they're taught, but most get through their entire lives easily dismissing any evidence to the contrary as just part of some trick to fake them out.

Indeed. However this isn't any different than any country in the world is it? Boiled down to it?

[Lenwen]

Seriously, good post Lenwen.

PN (sorry, having trouble with getting quotes to work with the wall of text), tolkeen DID try to negotiate with the CS by sending them diplomat. The CS returned him(her?) in a bodybag.

Thanks Bad Mojo.

Which book is it that tolkeen sent the emmisary to them in ?

Coalition Wars 01 -Sedition
PG 101

"...Tolkeen tries in vain to make diplomatic connections with the Coalition States to avert what they (correctly) predict is the beginning of a downward spiral to total war between the CS and Tolkeen. When Tolkeen receives their Ambassador back in a body bag, they know the time for talking is gone forever..."

Then would you say that Tolkeen had no choice in going to war ? As other's have tried to say tolkeen had choices ?

[Pepsi Jedi]

I have read all these posts but I couldn't be asked doing the quote thing as I am on an iphone and its a pain in the ass.

I'll say this again and I REALLY hope someone can hear what I am saying and think about it instead of trying to find what is wrong with the sentence structure or metaphors.

The CS are a group of humans fighting for their world. Launching an intergal--you know there's not even a point me typing that.

Pepsi is right. It sucks but from a human point of view of someone in the setting the actions of the Coalition States make sense. Yes they are bullies driven by fear but this is a natural human response. Len and Giant I get what youre trying to say but you're coming at it from the wrong place. You're not looking at the human factors, you're both removed from the situation and saying "this is how it should be" or "why didn't it happen like this?"

The fact is that it didnt, the events as they transpired made sense. If it a film people could follow it, it would make sense, and it would be that simple.

I'm not even going to try to point out all my points anymore because I kind of think this is more about picking a side and rooting for your team than it is considering all the facts of the situation. When you pick and choose the facts you distort the truth. That in and of itself should kind of be an indication of human nature and the tensions at play here. If you can get so worked up trying to vilify the CS and justify Tolkeen (when at least the CS supporters are saying "both sides were wrong") then that something you should really stop and think about. Reach the letters to the wife and ask yourself... have you ever seen a Stormtrooper write home to his family? The CS aren't SUPPOSED to be faceless evil monsters, they're people and as such they're frustratingly grey and not prone to march to their deaths without what they feel is a good and justified reason!

Present them in your game however you like, let them twirl their mustaches and shoot every man woman and D-Bee child without a second thought if thats what you think is fun.

BUT in the setting as it is presented in R:UE and in the books I have read the CS are not JUST soulless killing machines. They have committed horrific acts but if a CS Soldier finds herself standing over a weeping D-Bee child in a town that she's been ordered to exterminate... she can still walk away. She can't bring back his parents but she can hide him or walk away. They're still PEOPLE. The whole problem here is that you guys have these idealistic notions of war and believe that you can eliminate a threat without purging it completely. That is not tactically sound. Especially when the enemy does not cooperate. That's why after they kicked their asses they let them run away. They could've made a couple of hand signals and "release the hounds" on the survivors as they fled, but they didn't.

The whole situation sucks but both sides were bad guys but please at least take a moment to stop (everyone) and just TRY to understand where the other guys are coming from. I feel like both Giant and Lan are arguing and trying to look at the situation through a tunnel so that their ethics are not challenged and their world views (of the setting) are not shaken. Perhaps they do not want the complication of thinking "Maybe we shouldn't just open fire on any CS Soldier the GM puts in their game and that is their right BUT the antagonistic nature of their claims are creating conflict here and not representative of the organization as it appears in the cannon.

I'm sorry guys... after reading what you've said (and I really, REALLY want to read more on the Mechanoids so please let me know where to look) I am not convinced the CS are inhuman irredeemable monsters. If you're trying to help me get to a point where my characters won't second guess pulling the trigger on someone in game then you've failed. Even in games like Dark's I am going to give everyone a fair go and a chance to prove my preconceptions wrong. Maybe its a little naive and idealist... but sometimes understanding your enemy is the only real way to defeat them.

To clarify, I am not roleplaying on these boards.
I fully understand why the CS did what they did and I can fully understand what Tolkeen did but sitting here with my out of character perspective, I know quite well that regardless of how understandable it is, the CS were in the wrong.
What I contest is other people being out of character and arguing that point, even villifying Tolkeen in the process - that is the problem. Morality extends well beyond the game system.
In life, if someone is kicking in my door, armed to the teeth screaming about how they are going to kill me and my family, I am not only legally able to defend myself in any way possible but it is the right thing to do.

And there is where you're wrong. If someone is kicking in your door, armed to the teeth, screaming about how you're going to kill you and your family. You are able to defend yourself, but NOT "ANY WAY POSSIBLE".

And that is where the problem comes in. "ANY WAY POSSIBLE" You are not allowed to nuke the city to stop the people trying to get through your door. It's not "The right thing to do" to call up a gang of raping cannibals to come and kill the guy rape him, eat him and.. just for fun your neighbors and half the block, just to protect your family. And BTW if you try and go "ok. the invader is running away you need to stop" the guys kill and eat you too...

And THAT is where Tolkeen lost the high ground. When they turned evil and did such an act.

No.. It is NOT the right thing to do, to become evil and deal with evil powers. You should man up, realize that maybe you can't win the fight, and go out the window and run away.

It is ---not--- right to jump feet first into dark demonic evil. Painting it that way isn't honest.

It doesn't matter if I stab them, shoot them in the head or summon a demon to do the job for me, I am both morally and legally right in doing so.

And again no. Unlimited response is not the right thing to do. And there is the fault of many arguments here. Unlimited response is not justified when you have other options. Tolkeen had other options. They chose to willingly deal with demons.

As a side note. Giant.. You know what a demon in rifts is, right? You just justified yourself for summoning a demon to sick on a home invader... wth man? lol

Protecting my family is not just my right but my duty, if demons are the most powerful weapon I have to that end, using anything else would be wrong.

Oh BS. You can go out the window. Summoning demons take the guy out and eat and rape and kill your neighbors isn't justified by your fear. That's some deep hip wading crap right there.

As pointed out in none other than palldium books itself. You don't always hav to go for the "Most powerful weapon you have" you don't go duck hunting with a grenade launcher. You don't summon up unholy armies to fight yourbattles for you, unless you're an evil demonic dealin' hump... and if you are.. then you deserve to die for being an evil demonic dealin' hump and you're just as bad as the demons you choose to do business with. The "why's" don't matter.

You've decised to become evil and brook with demons.

As a 21st century human being, I can understand why the CS have turned evil but I cannot understand how 21st century human beings can endorse that.

Because there's a difference between "Evil" and "Afraid" if you can't look at the setting annd understand the CS mindset. You're not trying hard at all. Or you're stuck in movie mindset where the good guys always win no matter what. Of course you've tried to endorce dealing with demons as being moral and right so your moral compass is pretty screwed up to start with.

You complain about the CS being evil while you champion evil acts. Your viewpoint is more evil than the CS's. By far. the CS has never delt with demons, yet you see absolutely nothing wrong with it and even think it a 'right thing to do'.

You're more evil than the CS if you believe that. The CS are trying to reclaim their planet from all the invaders. They're using extreme and sometimes evil methods to do this. You're willingly teaming up with demons and saying it's ok. You got um beat.

Seriously. Step back and re-read your own post Giant. You're HEAVILY endorsing dealing with inhuman, supernatural, demonic powers... as ok.. and justified.

Dude.... Listen to your self.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Genocide is exactly what the second wave was after .. Tolkeen had prision camps made of SDC structures .. so when the Coalition came to break out their pow's they had to be careful where they would shoot due to them killing their own pow's .. The Coalition had death camps ..

Second wave (notice this is prior to the summoning of demons on the part of Tolkeen) came in with full knowldge from Emp Prosak.

Second wave is the term used by the coalition's military for the second wave of invasion that the Coalition sent into the tolkeen theater, lead by General Drogue.

If needed I can provide canon sourced citations an details of the genocidal aspects the second wave under Drogue went into for you.

Keep reading Lenwen. Find out what happened with those camps and Drouge. (( Very serious. Keep reading and see that those were not sanctioned and Drogue got his for doing it))

Again you're presenting partial information. You gotta stop that. Others have access to the books.

[Pepsi Jedi]

No it's your new trigger word that you're waving around instead of proving your point. "NAZI NAZI NAZI NAZI GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE!!!" They didn't do it.

These new comers, known collectively as the Second wave have very clear ideas for how the war in tolkeen can be salvaged. Nearly all of them entail mass murderm destroying entire innocent populations, establishing what amount to concentration camps and perhaps even launching a D-Bee holocaust.

Overation Hardball : which plans to decimate Tolkeen's civilian populace. and Operation Spoilsport a campaign to insert hundreds of Special Forces teams spies saboteurs and assassins behind enemy lines. Together these plans shall advance General Drogue's and the like minded Second waver's sick vision of genocide against Tolkeen.

The first and foremost step in destroying Tolkeen according to General Drogue, is the elimination of Tolkeen's civilian populace.

Phase one is a scorched earth campaign to destroy every town village farm and honestead

Phase two involves the reintroduction of that pre-Rifts insturment of genocide, the concentration camp

This is all before Tolkeen's summoning of Demons an Devils .. to supplement its armies .. which clearly show's that the Coalition in fact was going the genocidal rout . and here is another quote that I will prove that even the emp knew all about this too ..

Emporer Prosek is willing to give the second wave its chance, and see what a genocidal approach can do.

There is ZERO doubt that the coalition used Genocidal warfar and even the highest ups in its entire military knew it was doing so ..

EDIT : Also again this is PRIOR .. to Tolkeen summoning Demons to supplement it militaries ..

And again. Keep reading. Find out what happens.

The CS denounce those actions and their own troops open up the camps and Drogue is killed by a CS squad for his evil.

Again.... I've said probably a dozen times but.. you seem to fail to read it. "BOTH SIDES CONDUCTED HORRORS DURING THE WAR"

The CS at least cleaned up that one.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Seriously, good post Lenwen.

PN (sorry, having trouble with getting quotes to work with the wall of text), tolkeen DID try to negotiate with the CS by sending them diplomat. The CS returned him(her?) in a bodybag.

Thanks Bad Mojo.

Which book is it that tolkeen sent the emmisary to them in ?

Coalition Wars 01 -Sedition
PG 101

"...Tolkeen tries in vain to make diplomatic connections with the Coalition States to avert what they (correctly) predict is the beginning of a downward spiral to total war between the CS and Tolkeen. When Tolkeen receives their Ambassador back in a body bag, they know the time for talking is gone forever..."

Then would you say that Tolkeen had no choice in going to war ? As other's have tried to say tolkeen had choices ?

Yeah, they could have left. As pointed out in detail.

[Lenwen]

Genocide is exactly what the second wave was after .. Tolkeen had prision camps made of SDC structures .. so when the Coalition came to break out their pow's they had to be careful where they would shoot due to them killing their own pow's .. The Coalition had death camps ..

Second wave (notice this is prior to the summoning of demons on the part of Tolkeen) came in with full knowldge from Emp Prosak.

Second wave is the term used by the coalition's military for the second wave of invasion that the Coalition sent into the tolkeen theater, lead by General Drogue.

If needed I can provide canon sourced citations an details of the genocidal aspects the second wave under Drogue went into for you.

Keep reading Lenwen. Find out what happened with those camps and Drouge. (( Very serious. Keep reading and see that those were not sanctioned and Drogue got his for doing it))

Again you're presenting partial information. You gotta stop that. Others have access to the books.

I am not presenting partial information. You CLEARLY .. stated they did not use them . When the fact of the matter is they in fact -->DID<-- use them for however long .. they did use them an even the Emp Knew about it .

You claimed they did not do it. I clearly showed they did an Emp knew about it .. of course they later were determined not to be of good use an subsequently disavowed .. but that does not change your wording ..

No it's your new trigger word that you're waving around instead of proving your point. "NAZI NAZI NAZI NAZI GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE!!!" They didn't do it.

See .. You stated they diden't do it .. when in fact they DID .. I only showed that you were in fact wrong by showing that they did use them even if only for a time .. then not using them later ..

Fact remains they did use them will Full knowledge of it all the way up to Emp Prosek.

IT does not matter that they subsequently disavowed them later on as your claim was clearly stated .. --> they diden't do it.<-- Yet your disinformation was wrong ..

They in fact did ..

[Pepsi Jedi]

Seriously, good post Lenwen.

PN (sorry, having trouble with getting quotes to work with the wall of text), tolkeen DID try to negotiate with the CS by sending them diplomat. The CS returned him(her?) in a bodybag.

Thanks Bad Mojo.

Which book is it that tolkeen sent the emmisary to them in ?

Coalition Wars 01 -Sedition
PG 101

"...Tolkeen tries in vain to make diplomatic connections with the Coalition States to avert what they (correctly) predict is the beginning of a downward spiral to total war between the CS and Tolkeen. When Tolkeen receives their Ambassador back in a body bag, they know the time for talking is gone forever..."

Then would you say that Tolkeen had no choice in going to war ? As other's have tried to say tolkeen had choices ?

From my perspective, they had no choice, the CS was going to attack no matter what. They would NOT have left tolkeen alone to move. The CS would have come up with some BS reason to attack the convoy ("They are going to join the federation of magic and other enemies of the humanity! We have to attack before they combine their armies and attack us!!!" or some other propaganda reason). I already mentioned that the other allies snubbed their noses at tolkeen (which they will regret later when the CS comes after them) so it was pretty much just them. Sure, they could have tried to gather allies from other places besides demons, but who is going to join them after the Erin Tarn herself has declined? They had a horrible desperate choice, join with evil dark powers to help you in the war in a chance to win or stick with their principles and die.

They could have gone west. People seem to only be invisioning fleeing east to Lazlo or the Fed. They could have gone west. I wrote out a way they could have done it. When people were "ok smart guy how could they have done it".

As for the lack of allies.. that's also stated clearly in the books, because tolkeen had gone NUTSO and evil at that point. Blaming the other groups for not teaming up with an insane evil group is a bit of selective editing there.

It's true, that they declined to team up with tolkeen, but you're leaving out the entire 'They'd gone insane and evil" part.. that's a pretty good reason you know.

[Giant2005]

Because there's a difference between "Evil" and "Afraid" if you can't look at the setting annd understand the CS mindset. You're not trying hard at all. Or you're stuck in movie mindset where the good guys always win no matter what. Of course you've tried to endorce dealing with demons as being moral and right so your moral compass is pretty screwed up to start with.

You complain about the CS being evil while you champion evil acts. Your viewpoint is more evil than the CS's. By far. the CS has never delt with demons, yet you see absolutely nothing wrong with it and even think it a 'right thing to do'.

You're more evil than the CS if you believe that. The CS are trying to reclaim their planet from all the invaders. They're using extreme and sometimes evil methods to do this. You're willingly teaming up with demons and saying it's ok. You got um beat.

Seriously. Step back and re-read your own post Giant. You're HEAVILY endorsing dealing with inhuman, supernatural, demonic powers... as ok.. and justified.

Dude.... Listen to your self.

I don't mean to sound condescending but it is getting really hard to tell if you are serious or not...
As already pointed out dozens of times, fear doesn't inspire genocide. Hate inspires genocide - if they were driven by fear, they wouldn't feel the need to exterminate the race, they would be satisfied with neutralizing the threat.
I also find it ironic how you declare I have some kind of movie mindset when all evidence points to you suffering from that flaw. You keep saying that Tolkeen should have died honorably instead of resorting to summoning Demons... Here is a lesson for you in human mentality: we are hardwired to keep ourselves alive at all costs. that is human nature and if it wasn't for the whole genocide thing, it would be what could have excused the CS's actions. This leaping on the grenade sentiment you seem to believe in is a movie myth. The average lifeform will go to any extent necessary to keep them and their loved ones alive, whether it be summoning Demons or not.
The most laughable statement you have made is claiming that my willingness to summon a Demon to protect myself somehow makes me more evil than the CS. The CS tried to nuke Tolkeen.
Going to extreme lengths to protect yourself and your people is infinitely less evil than going to extremer lengths to wipe out an innocent civilization. That fact is not disputable.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Genocide is exactly what the second wave was after .. Tolkeen had prision camps made of SDC structures .. so when the Coalition came to break out their pow's they had to be careful where they would shoot due to them killing their own pow's .. The Coalition had death camps ..

Second wave (notice this is prior to the summoning of demons on the part of Tolkeen) came in with full knowldge from Emp Prosak.

Second wave is the term used by the coalition's military for the second wave of invasion that the Coalition sent into the tolkeen theater, lead by General Drogue.

If needed I can provide canon sourced citations an details of the genocidal aspects the second wave under Drogue went into for you.

Keep reading Lenwen. Find out what happened with those camps and Drouge. (( Very serious. Keep reading and see that those were not sanctioned and Drogue got his for doing it))

Again you're presenting partial information. You gotta stop that. Others have access to the books.

I am not presenting partial information. You CLEARLY .. stated they did not use them . When the fact of the matter is they in fact -->DID<-- use them for however long .. they did use them an even the Emp Knew about it .

You claimed they did not do it. I clearly showed they did an Emp knew about it .. of course they later were determined not to be of good use an subsequently disavowed .. but that does not change your wording ..

No I said they didn't DO it. Entire. That when Tolkeen started to run and not fight back, thhey were let go. So Genocide was not done. it wasn't compleated. That when even after all their evil crap, Tolkeen broke and ran, that by and large, those that ran, escaped. the CS isn't conducting massive country wide sweeps for the survivors. They've driven them from tolkeen and are sitting on it. Breaking it down. Not chasing the people down for a genocide.

No it's your new trigger word that you're waving around instead of proving your point. "NAZI NAZI NAZI NAZI GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE!!!" They didn't do it.

See .. You stated they diden't do it .. when in fact they DID .. I only showed that you were in fact wrong by showing that they did use them even if only for a time .. then not using them later ..

But they didn't. They didn't kill um all. When they ran, they were let to run. That's nnot Genocide. That's war.

Fact remains they did use them will Full knowledge of it all the way up to Emp Prosek.

IT does not matter that they subsequently disavowed them later on as your claim was clearly stated .. --> they diden't do it.<-- Yet your disinformation was wrong ..

They in fact did ..

No.. They were at war. To complete a genocide they have to carry it through to the end. Thhe CS didn't. When it got out what that guy was doing the CS troops themselvves turned on the camps and killed the guy.

It might have been his intention, but the act itself was never completed. And in fact was stopped by the CS itself, not Tolkeen.

[Lenwen]

Genocide is exactly what the second wave was after .. Tolkeen had prision camps made of SDC structures .. so when the Coalition came to break out their pow's they had to be careful where they would shoot due to them killing their own pow's .. The Coalition had death camps ..

Second wave (notice this is prior to the summoning of demons on the part of Tolkeen) came in with full knowldge from Emp Prosak.

Second wave is the term used by the coalition's military for the second wave of invasion that the Coalition sent into the tolkeen theater, lead by General Drogue.

If needed I can provide canon sourced citations an details of the genocidal aspects the second wave under Drogue went into for you.

Keep reading Lenwen. Find out what happened with those camps and Drouge. (( Very serious. Keep reading and see that those were not sanctioned and Drogue got his for doing it))

Again you're presenting partial information. You gotta stop that. Others have access to the books.

I am not presenting partial information. You CLEARLY .. stated they did not use them . When the fact of the matter is they in fact -->DID<-- use them for however long .. they did use them an even the Emp Knew about it .

You claimed they did not do it. I clearly showed they did an Emp knew about it .. of course they later were determined not to be of good use an subsequently disavowed .. but that does not change your wording ..

No I said they didn't DO it. Entire. That when Tolkeen started to run and not fight back, thhey were let go. So Genocide was not done. it wasn't compleated. That when even after all their evil crap, Tolkeen broke and ran, that by and large, those that ran, escaped. the CS isn't conducting massive country wide sweeps for the survivors. They've driven them from tolkeen and are sitting on it. Breaking it down. Not chasing the people down for a genocide.

No it's your new trigger word that you're waving around instead of proving your point. "NAZI NAZI NAZI NAZI GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE!!!" They didn't do it.

See .. You stated they diden't do it .. when in fact they DID .. I only showed that you were in fact wrong by showing that they did use them even if only for a time .. then not using them later ..

But they didn't. They didn't kill um all. When they ran, they were let to run. That's nnot Genocide. That's war.

Fact remains they did use them will Full knowledge of it all the way up to Emp Prosek.

IT does not matter that they subsequently disavowed them later on as your claim was clearly stated .. --> they diden't do it.<-- Yet your disinformation was wrong ..

They in fact did ..

No.. They were at war. To complete a genocide they have to carry it through to the end. Thhe CS didn't. When it got out what that guy was doing the CS troops themselvves turned on the camps and killed the guy.

It might have been his intention, but the act itself was never completed. And in fact was stopped by the CS itself, not Tolkeen.

Now your backpeddling Pepsi Jedi ..

Fact of the matter is that Genocide is not Genocide only if its completed all the way threw .. Genocide is Genocide even if its uncompleted ..

You stated the CS did not do a Genocidal war .. I proven you wrong with multiple cited postings from the books themselves which CLEARLY .. proves you wrong .

It is what it is PJ, The Coalition did in fact for a time participate in a Genocidal war against Tolkeen .. you said they did not I proved they did. nuff said.

[Giant2005]

They could have gone west. People seem to only be invisioning fleeing east to Lazlo or the Fed. They could have gone west. I wrote out a way they could have done it. When people were "ok smart guy how could they have done it".

As for the lack of allies.. that's also stated clearly in the books, because tolkeen had gone NUTSO and evil at that point. Blaming the other groups for not teaming up with an insane evil group is a bit of selective editing there.

It's true, that they declined to team up with tolkeen, but you're leaving out the entire 'They'd gone insane and evil" part.. that's a pretty good reason you know.

This is only true if the CS weren't seeking genocide.
So in your game it may have been possible but in canon, it could not.
Moving from their fortifications could only make them more vulnerable. Sure a few could escape (and a few did even after going to war) but surely you cannot possibly think that even a majority of the people could escape a force of superior numbers that are hunting them down seeking nothing more than their deaths if they have rendered themselves weak.
Insanity.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Because there's a difference between "Evil" and "Afraid" if you can't look at the setting annd understand the CS mindset. You're not trying hard at all. Or you're stuck in movie mindset where the good guys always win no matter what. Of course you've tried to endorce dealing with demons as being moral and right so your moral compass is pretty screwed up to start with.

You complain about the CS being evil while you champion evil acts. Your viewpoint is more evil than the CS's. By far. the CS has never delt with demons, yet you see absolutely nothing wrong with it and even think it a 'right thing to do'.

You're more evil than the CS if you believe that. The CS are trying to reclaim their planet from all the invaders. They're using extreme and sometimes evil methods to do this. You're willingly teaming up with demons and saying it's ok. You got um beat.

Seriously. Step back and re-read your own post Giant. You're HEAVILY endorsing dealing with inhuman, supernatural, demonic powers... as ok.. and justified.

Dude.... Listen to your self.

I don't mean to sound condescending but it is getting really hard to tell if you are serious or not...

I am serious. In the hierarchy of evil acts. Murder is bad. Willingly dealing with demons is worse. Justifying the use of demons as a good and moral act is.... well lots of adjectives, but none of them positive.

As already pointed out dozens of times, fear doesn't inspire genocide. Hate inspires genocide - if they were driven by fear, they wouldn't feel the need to exterminate the race, they would be satisfied with neutralizing the threat.

They were. When tolkeen broke and ran, they were allowed to run.

I also find it ironic how you declare I have some kind of movie mindset when all evidence points to you suffering from that flaw.

You are CONDONING using demonic forces against a home invader. LOL You're saying it's the RIGHT THING TO DO. You tell me.

You keep saying that Tolkeen should have died honorably instead of resorting to summoning Demons...

No.. I keep saying they should have simply left... but if not. Then yeah. Die honorably instead of resorting to summoning armies of demons. You might die, but you die 'good' and not an evil scumbag. (( which, by and large they did ANYWAY,))

Here is a lesson for you in human mentality: we are hardwired to keep ourselves alive at all costs.

No. Not that cost. We're often wired to give our lives for others. That goes in direct contradiction tto your statement. One doesn't have to jump feet first into evil to be human. That's on you Giant.

that is human nature and if it wasn't for the whole genocide thing, it would be what could have excused the CS's actions. This leaping on the grenade sentiment you seem to believe in is a movie myth.

No.. It's fact. Many hundreds if not thousands of times over. Don't tell me it's myth. My dad was in Vietnam. He's got three purple hearts, two bronze stars and a silver star. i KNOW that honor is. I've seen his right arm that doesn't work well, and his hand which is now a claw. Know why? in Vietnam he got shot seven times in one mission and refused to leave his platoon behind. He carried a 220 pound sergeant 14 miles through the jungle, ------after----- being shot seven times. The sergeant was dead. My father still wouldn't leave him behind. Two of the bullets were an inch from the spine. I was in the hospital years later when those bullets were finally taken out. My father got the platoon back to base and it took three full grown men to take him down to the ground to be tended to medically because he refused to be treated before his men. I've seen the men. Full grown men that went to war. Decades later, talk to my father about it. I've seen their eyes when they thanked him for not leaving them to die in that jungle.

So no. Don't tell me it's a movie myth.. that people can be good and can die for their beliefs vs serving just themselves.

Your viewpoint is a very craven self serving one Giant. I feel sorry for you. I know that honor exists, and that that every human doesn't jump feet first into evil at the drop of a hat.

Some of us stand against it. Yeah.... even if it means death.

The average lifeform will go to any extent necessary to keep them and their loved ones alive, whether it be summoning Demons or not.

No. Just the cowards and those which are evil themselves.

The most laughable statement you have made is claiming that my willingness to summon a Demon to protect myself somehow makes me more evil than the CS. The CS tried to nuke Tolkeen.

So? It's war. You bomb cities in war. It's still not as high on the scale of sins as willingly dealing with demonic armies and loosing them on humanity. (( Is nuking a city bad? yeah. Not saying it's not))

Going to extreme lengths to protect yourself and your people is infinitely less evil than going to extremer lengths to wipe out an innocent civilization. That fact is not disputable.

It totally is. You're not talking abouut going to normal lengths. You're willingly dealing with demons. That makes you evil. (( By palladiums alignement charts, and by ... well... every morality that I've seen))

You can protect yourself and your family to a point. There --is-- a point where if you go past it you are no longer in the right. That point is where that defence hurts innocents and others beyond the normal scope.

Making deals with demons is an evil act. Your trying to justify being evil and dealing with evil eillingly. That's laughable.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Genocide is exactly what the second wave was after .. Tolkeen had prision camps made of SDC structures .. so when the Coalition came to break out their pow's they had to be careful where they would shoot due to them killing their own pow's .. The Coalition had death camps ..

Second wave (notice this is prior to the summoning of demons on the part of Tolkeen) came in with full knowldge from Emp Prosak.

Second wave is the term used by the coalition's military for the second wave of invasion that the Coalition sent into the tolkeen theater, lead by General Drogue.

If needed I can provide canon sourced citations an details of the genocidal aspects the second wave under Drogue went into for you.

Keep reading Lenwen. Find out what happened with those camps and Drouge. (( Very serious. Keep reading and see that those were not sanctioned and Drogue got his for doing it))

Again you're presenting partial information. You gotta stop that. Others have access to the books.

I am not presenting partial information. You CLEARLY .. stated they did not use them . When the fact of the matter is they in fact -->DID<-- use them for however long .. they did use them an even the Emp Knew about it .

You claimed they did not do it. I clearly showed they did an Emp knew about it .. of course they later were determined not to be of good use an subsequently disavowed .. but that does not change your wording ..

No I said they didn't DO it. Entire. That when Tolkeen started to run and not fight back, thhey were let go. So Genocide was not done. it wasn't compleated. That when even after all their evil crap, Tolkeen broke and ran, that by and large, those that ran, escaped. the CS isn't conducting massive country wide sweeps for the survivors. They've driven them from tolkeen and are sitting on it. Breaking it down. Not chasing the people down for a genocide.

No it's your new trigger word that you're waving around instead of proving your point. "NAZI NAZI NAZI NAZI GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE!!!" They didn't do it.

See .. You stated they diden't do it .. when in fact they DID .. I only showed that you were in fact wrong by showing that they did use them even if only for a time .. then not using them later ..

But they didn't. They didn't kill um all. When they ran, they were let to run. That's nnot Genocide. That's war.

Fact remains they did use them will Full knowledge of it all the way up to Emp Prosek.

IT does not matter that they subsequently disavowed them later on as your claim was clearly stated .. --> they diden't do it.<-- Yet your disinformation was wrong ..

They in fact did ..

No.. They were at war. To complete a genocide they have to carry it through to the end. Thhe CS didn't. When it got out what that guy was doing the CS troops themselvves turned on the camps and killed the guy.

It might have been his intention, but the act itself was never completed. And in fact was stopped by the CS itself, not Tolkeen.

Now your backpeddling Pepsi Jedi ..

Fact of the matter is that Genocide is not Genocide only if its completed all the way threw .. Genocide is Genocide even if its uncompleted ..

You stated the CS did not do a Genocidal war .. I proven you wrong with multiple cited postings from the books themselves which CLEARLY .. proves you wrong .

It is what it is PJ, The Coalition did in fact for a time participate in a Genocidal war against Tolkeen .. you said they did not I proved they did. nuff said.

Maybe we're defining it different.. How can you do a partial Genocide? In my mind it's a binary thing. You either are conducting a Genocide.. or not..... You can't have a half a Genocide.. that's just... a war.

Genocide means ALL. not 'PART'.... Correct?

[Pepsi Jedi]

They could have gone west. People seem to only be invisioning fleeing east to Lazlo or the Fed. They could have gone west. I wrote out a way they could have done it. When people were "ok smart guy how could they have done it".

As for the lack of allies.. that's also stated clearly in the books, because tolkeen had gone NUTSO and evil at that point. Blaming the other groups for not teaming up with an insane evil group is a bit of selective editing there.

It's true, that they declined to team up with tolkeen, but you're leaving out the entire 'They'd gone insane and evil" part.. that's a pretty good reason you know.

This is only true if the CS weren't seeking genocide.
So in your game it may have been possible but in canon, it could not.
Moving from their fortifications could only make them more vulnerable. Sure a few could escape (and a few did even after going to war) but surely you cannot possibly think that even a majority of the people could escape a force of superior numbers that are hunting them down seeking nothing more than their deaths if they have rendered themselves weak.
Insanity.

Actually it's in canon that ----everyone---- thought that running would work. Lazlo, the greatest community of magic and learning in NA, said... Run. So did their other allies, but yeah.. the smartest people in the game and situation said.. RUN. So they believed that it'd work.

Tolkeen was past rational thinking at that point. They'd already crossed that edge into evil and insanity. Know how we know? Erin Tarn says so. It was too late. They refused to run and save themselves, and instead willingly chose war. it's why she was so distressed.

So in Canon, at least Lazlo thought it was a viable option. Right?

[Lenwen]

Maybe we're defining it different.. How can you do a partial Genocide? In my mind it's a binary thing. You either are conducting a Genocide.. or not..... You can't have a half a Genocide.. that's just... a war.

Genocide means ALL. not 'PART'.... Correct?

No you are clearly back peddling .

You said the Coalition did not do it .. I quoted you stating as much (With out saying anything other then "They did not do it" ... ) then I quoted the books stating that they insituted with full knowledge of the Emp the death camps an the genocidal war.


The fact that they did not finish the job is besides the point.

The fact is you said they did not. I showed they did. Do you see where I am coming from ?

[Pepsi Jedi]

Maybe we're defining it different.. How can you do a partial Genocide? In my mind it's a binary thing. You either are conducting a Genocide.. or not..... You can't have a half a Genocide.. that's just... a war.

Genocide means ALL. not 'PART'.... Correct?

No you are clearly back peddling .

You said the Coalition did not do it .. I quoted you stating as much (With out saying anything other then "They did not do it" ... ) then I quoted the books stating that they insituted with full knowledge of the Emp the death camps an the genocidal war.


The fact that they did not finish the job is besides the point.

The fact is you said they did not. I showed they did. Do you see where I am coming from ?

No.. because when tolkeen ran, they were allowed to, so it wasn't a Genocide. Again.. "Genocide till the other guys run away" isn't genocide.. that's normal war. Right?

[Lenwen]

Maybe we're defining it different.. How can you do a partial Genocide? In my mind it's a binary thing. You either are conducting a Genocide.. or not..... You can't have a half a Genocide.. that's just... a war.

Genocide means ALL. not 'PART'.... Correct?

No you are clearly back peddling .

You said the Coalition did not do it .. I quoted you stating as much (With out saying anything other then "They did not do it" ... ) then I quoted the books stating that they insituted with full knowledge of the Emp the death camps an the genocidal war.


The fact that they did not finish the job is besides the point.

The fact is you said they did not. I showed they did. Do you see where I am coming from ?

No.. because when tolkeen ran, they were allowed to, so it wasn't a Genocide. Again.. "Genocide till the other guys run away" isn't genocide.. that's normal war. Right?

ok clearly your argueing now just to argue ..

Even after I proven you wrong with multiple canon sourced refrences ..

A) - You stated something.
B) - I proved your statement wong with book quotes.
C) - you started to back peddle ..
D) - now your nitpicking because the Coalition did not finish it .. it does not make it a genocide ..

Your wrong on all accounts ..

gen·o·cide/ˈjenəˌsīd/

Noun:

The deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.


Notice it does not state .. it only is Genocide if it is completed ..

There in lies the folly of your back peddling logic ..

Good day to you.

[Giant2005]

Yeah I'm done here.
It is obvious this isn't going anywhere - someone who considers nuking an innocent civilization less evil than summoning demons to protect yourself can't be debated with in any rational form.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Maybe we're defining it different.. How can you do a partial Genocide? In my mind it's a binary thing. You either are conducting a Genocide.. or not..... You can't have a half a Genocide.. that's just... a war.

Genocide means ALL. not 'PART'.... Correct?

No you are clearly back peddling .

You said the Coalition did not do it .. I quoted you stating as much (With out saying anything other then "They did not do it" ... ) then I quoted the books stating that they insituted with full knowledge of the Emp the death camps an the genocidal war.


The fact that they did not finish the job is besides the point.

The fact is you said they did not. I showed they did. Do you see where I am coming from ?

No.. because when tolkeen ran, they were allowed to, so it wasn't a Genocide. Again.. "Genocide till the other guys run away" isn't genocide.. that's normal war. Right?

ok clearly your argueing now just to argue ..

Even after I proven you wrong with multiple canon sourced refrences ..

A) - You stated something.
B) - I proved your statement wong with book quotes.
C) - you started to back peddle ..
D) - now your nitpicking because the Coalition did not finish it .. it does not make it a genocide ..

Your wrong on all accounts ..

gen·o·cide/ˈjenəˌsīd/

Noun:

The deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.


Notice it does not state .. it only is Genocide if it is completed ..

There in lies the folly of your back peddling logic ..

Good day to you.

Where'd you get that definition? I googled it and it's not in the top 4 or 5. The ones I found were more firm.

Dictonary. com

"the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group. " deliberate and systematat extermination of.... that's "All" not some.

Merriam-Webster.com
"the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group " Again, entire group.

The Free dictionary.com
"The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of an entire national, racial, religious, or ethnic group" again, "Entire"

My point was, that when the forces of Tolkeen broke and ran, the CS didn't hunt them down and kill them all. Which would have been done had genocide been their prupose.

So, it wasn't a true genocide.

YES. You cited some sources that said Drogue (( how ever you spell his name)) had those ideas, but they were not held by all of the CS and infact his war crimes were addressed by othes of the CS.

The entire army and nation can't be in on genocide 1) if the Genocide wasn't concluded and 2) Your own troops see you as evil for trying it and frag you themselves for being that evil dude.

YES. I DO SEE that you found some quotes of it in the book. I'm saying that the actions of the CS as a whole do not bear out that one generals ATTEMPTS. I'm not back pedeling. One general in a war of millions doesn't define the entire war. especially when that guy is killed by his own troops for being evil.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Yeah I'm done here.
It is obvious this isn't going anywhere - someone who considers nuking an innocent civilization less evil than summoning demons to protect yourself can't be debated with in any rational form.

Nuking an innocent civilization would be bad.

Nuking one that had armies lead by evil generals and made deals with demonic armies against you. Not so much. You're ignoring the situation to make your point. How do you call them innocent in that light?


But.. I agree with you. I'm done too. I'm not going to get a warning for arguing with people that consider dealing with demonic armies just and right and perfectly ok if you're threatened.

So gentlemen... Lets agree to disagree and drop it. We all drop it. none of us get in trouble.

[Lenwen]

Maybe we're defining it different.. How can you do a partial Genocide? In my mind it's a binary thing. You either are conducting a Genocide.. or not..... You can't have a half a Genocide.. that's just... a war.

Genocide means ALL. not 'PART'.... Correct?

No you are clearly back peddling .

You said the Coalition did not do it .. I quoted you stating as much (With out saying anything other then "They did not do it" ... ) then I quoted the books stating that they insituted with full knowledge of the Emp the death camps an the genocidal war.


The fact that they did not finish the job is besides the point.

The fact is you said they did not. I showed they did. Do you see where I am coming from ?

No.. because when tolkeen ran, they were allowed to, so it wasn't a Genocide. Again.. "Genocide till the other guys run away" isn't genocide.. that's normal war. Right?

ok clearly your argueing now just to argue ..

Even after I proven you wrong with multiple canon sourced refrences ..

A) - You stated something.
B) - I proved your statement wong with book quotes.
C) - you started to back peddle ..
D) - now your nitpicking because the Coalition did not finish it .. it does not make it a genocide ..

Your wrong on all accounts ..

gen·o·cide/ˈjenəˌsīd/

Noun:

The deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.


Notice it does not state .. it only is Genocide if it is completed ..

There in lies the folly of your back peddling logic ..

Good day to you.

Where'd you get that definition? I googled it and it's not in the top 4 or 5. The ones I found were more firm.

Dictonary. com

"the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group. " deliberate and systematat extermination of.... that's "All" not some.

Merriam-Webster.com
"the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group " Again, entire group.

The Free dictionary.com
"The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of an entire national, racial, religious, or ethnic group" again, "Entire"

My point was, that when the forces of Tolkeen broke and ran, the CS didn't hunt them down and kill them all. Which would have been done had genocide been their prupose.

So, it wasn't a true genocide.

YES. You cited some sources that said Drogue (( how ever you spell his name)) had those ideas, but they were not held by all of the CS and infact his war crimes were addressed by othes of the CS.

The entire army and nation can't be in on genocide 1) if the Genocide wasn't concluded and 2) Your own troops see you as evil for trying it and frag you themselves for being that evil dude.

YES. I DO SEE that you found some quotes of it in the book. I'm saying that the actions of the CS as a whole do not bear out that one generals ATTEMPTS. I'm not back pedeling. One general in a war of millions doesn't define the entire war. especially when that guy is killed by his own troops for being evil.

Even using your own googled versions .. CLEARLY .. show's that Genocide is not Genocide unless its finished ..

Genocide is the deliberate killing of .. a nation .. (Tolkeen was a city state nation.)

Your symantic's does not change the fact that Yes the coalition had a Genocidal war against Tolkeen for a brief time .

LMAO !!

Your funny ..

[Pepsi Jedi]

Where'd you get that definition? I googled it and it's not in the top 4 or 5. The ones I found were more firm.

Dictonary. com

"the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group. " deliberate and systematat extermination of.... that's "All" not some.

Merriam-Webster.com
"the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group " Again, entire group.

The Free dictionary.com
"The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of an entire national, racial, religious, or ethnic group" again, "Entire"

My point was, that when the forces of Tolkeen broke and ran, the CS didn't hunt them down and kill them all. Which would have been done had genocide been their prupose.

So, it wasn't a true genocide.

YES. You cited some sources that said Drogue (( how ever you spell his name)) had those ideas, but they were not held by all of the CS and infact his war crimes were addressed by othes of the CS.

The entire army and nation can't be in on genocide 1) if the Genocide wasn't concluded and 2) Your own troops see you as evil for trying it and frag you themselves for being that evil dude.

YES. I DO SEE that you found some quotes of it in the book. I'm saying that the actions of the CS as a whole do not bear out that one generals ATTEMPTS. I'm not back pedeling. One general in a war of millions doesn't define the entire war. especially when that guy is killed by his own troops for being evil.

Even using your own googled versions .. CLEARLY .. show's that Genocide is not Genocide unless its finished ..

Genocide is the deliberate killing of .. a nation .. (Tolkeen was a city state nation.)

Your symantic's does not change the fact that Yes the coalition had a Genocidal war against Tolkeen for a brief time .

LMAO !!

Your funny ..

"Entire" not "Part"

And again where'd you get your definition? It's not any of the top 5+ I could find.

[Lenwen]

Where'd you get that definition? I googled it and it's not in the top 4 or 5. The ones I found were more firm.

Dictonary. com

"the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group. " deliberate and systematat extermination of.... that's "All" not some.

Does not say its not genocide if its not finished ..

Merriam-Webster.com
"the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group " Again, entire group.

Does not say entire anywhere in that definition .. Your losing this debate sorry ..

The Free dictionary.com
"The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of an entire national, racial, religious, or ethnic group" again, "Entire"

Here it is even stated as being "attempted" is also genocidal ..

Your own definitions are making it more clear your only argueing to argue .. cause they back me more then you.

[Lenwen]

And again where'd you get your definition? It's not any of the top 5+ I could find.

Google.

I did not click on a link. Its the VERY first definition .. there is no link for it. It automatically crops up when you google "What does Genocide mean".

[Pepsi Jedi]

Nevermind. I said I was done and I replied. My bad. Have a nice day.

[Lenwen]

Nevermind. I said I was done and I replied. My bad. Have a nice day.

Good day to you Pepsi Jedi.

[Kagashi]

Told ya'll. Just mention the Siege of Tolkeen and people start throwing virtual spears. Logic gets thrown out past the third post and people start saying "Nanny Nanny Boo Boo", personal attacks, grammar/spelling jabs, and folks simply arguing for the sake of arguing. There has been...what? like 4-5 good logical posts that actually attempted to answer the posters original question? Just saying.

[Lenwen]

Told ya'll. Just mention the Siege of Tolkeen and people start throwing virtual spears. Logic gets thrown out past the third post and people start saying "Nanny Nanny Boo Boo", personal attacks, grammar/spelling jabs, and folks simply arguing for the sake of arguing. There has been...what? like 4-5 good logical posts that actually attempted to answer the posters original question? Just saying.

I've even attempted to go an show that the so called hand wavium'ed by some on this thread on the side of Tolkeen was already explained ..

But after I had given a book quote .. they never wanted to speak about it again . lol

Yet we still have hand wavium'ed going on for the CS .. bigtime .

[Vrykolas2k]

No it's your new trigger word that you're waving around instead of proving your point. "NAZI NAZI NAZI NAZI GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE!!!" They didn't do it.

These new comers, known collectively as the Second wave have very clear ideas for how the war in tolkeen can be salvaged. Nearly all of them entail mass murderm destroying entire innocent populations, establishing what amount to concentration camps and perhaps even launching a D-Bee holocaust.

Overation Hardball : which plans to decimate Tolkeen's civilian populace. and Operation Spoilsport a campaign to insert hundreds of Special Forces teams spies saboteurs and assassins behind enemy lines. Together these plans shall advance General Drogue's and the like minded Second waver's sick vision of genocide against Tolkeen.

The first and foremost step in destroying Tolkeen according to General Drogue, is the elimination of Tolkeen's civilian populace.

Phase one is a scorched earth campaign to destroy every town village farm and honestead

Phase two involves the reintroduction of that pre-Rifts insturment of genocide, the concentration camp

This is all before Tolkeen's summoning of Demons an Devils .. to supplement its armies .. which clearly show's that the Coalition in fact was going the genocidal rout . and here is another quote that I will prove that even the emp knew all about this too ..

Emporer Prosek is willing to give the second wave its chance, and see what a genocidal approach can do.

There is ZERO doubt that the coalition used Genocidal warfar and even the highest ups in its entire military knew it was doing so ..

EDIT : Also again this is PRIOR .. to Tolkeen summoning Demons to supplement it militaries ..

And again. Keep reading. Find out what happens.

The CS denounce those actions and their own troops open up the camps and Drogue is killed by a CS squad for his evil.

Again.... I've said probably a dozen times but.. you seem to fail to read it. "BOTH SIDES CONDUCTED HORRORS DURING THE WAR"

The CS at least cleaned up that one.

Ya... that's called "spin doctoring".

[Akashic Soldier]

Yeah I'm done here.
It is obvious this isn't going anywhere - someone who considers nuking an innocent civilization less evil than summoning demons to protect yourself can't be debated with in any rational form.

No one said that Giant. I think if you just take a deep breath and reread the content of the thread as opposed to reading what you THINK we're saying you will be pleasantly surprised.

No one is saying that nuking Tolkeen wasn't a move of the utmost d!ickheadery.

But at the same time... opening a gate into hell and marching an apocalyptic army of demonic monsters to destroy the enemy and then to add insult to injury metaphorically shrugging your shoulders when your own demonic army turns on your own allies and troops is not an appropriate response.

[Lenwen]

Yeah I'm done here.
It is obvious this isn't going anywhere - someone who considers nuking an innocent civilization less evil than summoning demons to protect yourself can't be debated with in any rational form.

No one said that Giant. I think if you just take a deep breath and reread the content of the thread as opposed to reading what you THINK we're saying you will be pleasantly surprised.

No one is saying that nuking Tolkeen wasn't a move of the utmost d!ickheadery.

But at the same time... opening a gate into hell and marching an apocalyptic army of demonic monsters to destroy the enemy and then to add insult to injury metaphorically shrugging your shoulders when your own demonic army turns on your own allies and troops is not an appropriate response.

I can not say that I blame them .. after being pushed as they were by the coalition to the point of the CS instituting a Gencidal concentration camps of my people .. and instituting a scorched earth campaign ..

Over what ?

War's are fought over resources, love .. heck even for land . But this is apperant as it gets .. there was ZERO .. reasoning given for them to attack the Tolkeen city .

Zero reason ..

[Ravenwing]

ummm....Lenwen seems to have forgotten that Tolkeen had summoned an army of demons well before 105PA, before the war began. And everyone seems to have left out the fact that both sides were engaged in 'low level warfare' for years prior to the actual outbreak of full scale war.

[Lenwen]

ummm....Lenwen seems to have forgotten that Tolkeen had summoned an army of demons well before 105PA, before the war began. And everyone seems to have left out the fact that both sides were engaged in 'low level warfare' for years prior to the actual outbreak of full scale war.

Could you provide a book refrence for the Summoning of an Army of Demon's prior to 105 PA ?

And no one forgot about the "hostilities" prior to the war. It is what lead up to the actual war my friend.

[Ravenwing]

ummm....Lenwen seems to have forgotten that Tolkeen had summoned an army of demons well before 105PA, before the war began. And everyone seems to have left out the fact that both sides were engaged in 'low level warfare' for years prior to the actual outbreak of full scale war.

Could you provide a book refrence for the Summoning of an Army of Demon's prior to 105 PA ?

And no one forgot about the "hostilities" prior to the war. It is what lead up to the actual war my friend.

I don't have my books on me at the moment......
But IIRC, it talks about it in that section that describes the Deamonix(Spelling?) It also talks about it in the first SoT book, and the second, and the third....and I know it mentions it with all the TW goodies in the last book.
The demonic army is why Lord Croake, Lazlo and the other communities wouldn't join Tolkeen.

[Ravenwing]

I love my wife, she always knows where I put my junk! lol.

ok then exact citings then?

Gargoyles (some carved, some
real) peer down from the rooftops while flying chariots, dragons
and winged creatures take flight overhead. On the streets below
walk wondrous creatures from a dozen worlds and alien dimensions
intermingling with humans and mutants — all free and accepted
as equals.
Sot Book one page 93. Proof that Demons were already a part of the city before the war began.

From the Time line, in SoT Book 1, under the listing for 100 PA, Page 103
Rumor has it that he has made
overtures with demonic beings such as the Brodkil and Neuron
Beasts, as well as villainous mercenaries and even the Federation
of Magic. While such a turn of events does not sit well with
many Tolkeenites, they turn a blind eye to the ominous goings
on, focusing on the support they enjoy from Lazlo, New Lazlo
and the Cyber-Knights. After all, one can argue that war often
makes for strange bedfellows. Besides, the majority of
Tolkeen's people feel that if they are to survive the coming Coalition
onslaught (which they figure is any day now), then they
would have to do things King Creed's way.
This hints at the demonic army.

Same Book, timeline, page 104, 101 PA adds more flavor to it, but no exact proof of demonic armies.

Same Book, Adventures section, North Fields ( A town in CS Chi-town) the sceniro features a band of Tolkeen Shifters commanding 60 Possessing entities. Pages 116-118

SoT Book 2: Page 88, Deamonix description.
The Daemonix race are hulking,
supernatural monstrosities from another world. Exactly
when, where or how the Shifters of Tolkeen found them is unknown.

However the rest of the text would lead one to believe that the deamonix have been in Tolkeen for some time, as TW devices were created for them. Further more the text talks about the problems that arise from the Demon armies intermixing in Tolkeen.

Now before you scream* 'Second wave/Drogue/Genocide, thus demon army summoning doesn't count' reread the first part of the book. The demon army, the mages trickery etc WERE THE REASON The second wave was sent in.


* opps I reread this and realized it sounded very rude. By You, I don't mean Lenwen specifically, but the 'otherside as a whole'.

[Lenwen]

I love my wife, she always knows where I put my junk! lol.

ok then exact citings then?

Gargoyles (some carved, some
real) peer down from the rooftops while flying chariots, dragons
and winged creatures take flight overhead. On the streets below
walk wondrous creatures from a dozen worlds and alien dimensions
intermingling with humans and mutants — all free and accepted
as equals.
Sot Book one page 93. Proof that Demons were already a part of the city before the war began.

It does state some garg's .. but "Some Gargs" does not make veritable Armies of Demons .. not even if you wanted it too hehe.

Do you not agree ?

From the Time line, in SoT Book 1, under the listing for 100 PA, Page 103
Rumor has it that he has made
overtures with demonic beings such as the Brodkil and Neuron
Beasts, as well as villainous mercenaries and even the Federation
of Magic. While such a turn of events does not sit well with
many Tolkeenites, they turn a blind eye to the ominous goings
on, focusing on the support they enjoy from Lazlo, New Lazlo
and the Cyber-Knights. After all, one can argue that war often
makes for strange bedfellows. Besides, the majority of
Tolkeen's people feel that if they are to survive the coming Coalition
onslaught (which they figure is any day now), then they
would have to do things King Creed's way.
This hints at the demonic army.

Hints at but does not canonly admit anything about a Demonic Army.

Same Book, timeline, page 104, 101 PA adds more flavor to it, but no exact proof of demonic armies.

Same Book, Adventures section, North Fields ( A town in CS Chi-town) the sceniro features a band of Tolkeen Shifters commanding 60 Possessing entities. Pages 116-118

Scenario's are in fact not a canon source..

This refrence does not mean anything my friend.

SoT Book 2: Page 88, Deamonix description.
The Daemonix race are hulking,
supernatural monstrosities from another world. Exactly
when, where or how the Shifters of Tolkeen found them is unknown.

However the rest of the text would lead one to believe that the deamonix have been in Tolkeen for some time, as TW devices were created for them. Further more the text talks about the problems that arise from the Demon armies intermixing in Tolkeen.

Daemonix can be argue as not being Demons at all .. as can be seen by this quoted refrence ..

The daemonix are hulding supernatural monstrosities from another world.

Now before you scream* 'Second wave/Drogue/Genocide, thus demon army summoning doesn't count' reread the first part of the book. The demon army, the mages trickery etc WERE THE REASON The second wave was sent in.

Sorry perhaps I am reading something else then you are ?

But from what I am reading .. the invasion happened , Tolkeen stopped them cold .. with such ferocity that the Coalition military soilder's started to wonder what they got themselves into an started for the first time ever to doubt they could win this war, which in turn made their fighting resolve weaker an weaker ..

After the second wave showed up .. is when the Daemonix started to show up .. that much can be learned by reading Book 2 of the siege. front to back.

* opps I reread this and realized it sounded very rude. By You, I don't mean Lenwen specifically, but the 'otherside as a whole'.

Sorry ya lost me here, I was looking like I was being rude or was it other's ?

[Akashic Soldier]

Len, I commend your civility. Why don't you check out Division 6 (in my signature) and tell me if the events I have set in motion in this story could happen in your perception of Rifts?

(I'm genuinely curious to know -- same to you Pepsi.)

[Ravenwing]

I love my wife, she always knows where I put my junk! lol.

ok then exact citings then?

Gargoyles (some carved, some
real) peer down from the rooftops while flying chariots, dragons
and winged creatures take flight overhead. On the streets below
walk wondrous creatures from a dozen worlds and alien dimensions
intermingling with humans and mutants — all free and accepted
as equals.
Sot Book one page 93. Proof that Demons were already a part of the city before the war began.

It does state some garg's .. but "Some Gargs" does not make veritable Armies of Demons .. not even if you wanted it too hehe.

Do you not agree ?

From the Time line, in SoT Book 1, under the listing for 100 PA, Page 103
Rumor has it that he has made
overtures with demonic beings such as the Brodkil and Neuron
Beasts, as well as villainous mercenaries and even the Federation
of Magic. While such a turn of events does not sit well with
many Tolkeenites, they turn a blind eye to the ominous goings
on, focusing on the support they enjoy from Lazlo, New Lazlo
and the Cyber-Knights. After all, one can argue that war often
makes for strange bedfellows. Besides, the majority of
Tolkeen's people feel that if they are to survive the coming Coalition
onslaught (which they figure is any day now), then they
would have to do things King Creed's way.
This hints at the demonic army.

Hints at but does not canonly admit anything about a Demonic Army.

Same Book, timeline, page 104, 101 PA adds more flavor to it, but no exact proof of demonic armies.

Same Book, Adventures section, North Fields ( A town in CS Chi-town) the sceniro features a band of Tolkeen Shifters commanding 60 Possessing entities. Pages 116-118

Scenario's are in fact not a canon source..

This refrence does not mean anything my friend.

SoT Book 2: Page 88, Deamonix description.
The Daemonix race are hulking,
supernatural monstrosities from another world. Exactly
when, where or how the Shifters of Tolkeen found them is unknown.

However the rest of the text would lead one to believe that the deamonix have been in Tolkeen for some time, as TW devices were created for them. Further more the text talks about the problems that arise from the Demon armies intermixing in Tolkeen.

Daemonix can be argue as not being Demons at all .. as can be seen by this quoted refrence ..

The daemonix are hulding supernatural monstrosities from another world.

Now before you scream* 'Second wave/Drogue/Genocide, thus demon army summoning doesn't count' reread the first part of the book. The demon army, the mages trickery etc WERE THE REASON The second wave was sent in.

Sorry perhaps I am reading something else then you are ?

But from what I am reading .. the invasion happened , Tolkeen stopped them cold .. with such ferocity that the Coalition military soilder's started to wonder what they got themselves into an started for the first time ever to doubt they could win this war, which in turn made their fighting resolve weaker an weaker ..

After the second wave showed up .. is when the Daemonix started to show up .. that much can be learned by reading Book 2 of the siege. front to back.

* opps I reread this and realized it sounded very rude. By You, I don't mean Lenwen specifically, but the 'otherside as a whole'.

Sorry ya lost me here, I was looking like I was being rude or was it other's ?

lol, I meant my post as rude, not yours. I was just trying to keep any hurt feelings from developing by explaining.

Now then.....
I've been thinking of a response to the rest of your posts. And I've come to the following conclusions.

1) No matter what side one wants to argue for, or against one can find canonical sources for it, or agasint.

2) The SoT series, while quite clear to me and other CS supporters indicates that Tolkeen had Demonic forces before the invasion, and was willing to meet the CS with Genocide, terrorism, and other acts. Likewise, from what I'm seeing it's quite clear to Tolkeen supporters that they were the victims, and thus are free and clear of any wrong doing.

3) This can't possibly be debated at this point, it's less a matter of factual information, and more of interpretation.

Having said that, I'm outty.

[Lenwen]

Now then.....
I've been thinking of a response to the rest of your posts. And I've come to the following conclusions.

1) No matter what side one wants to argue for, or against one can find canonical sources for it, or agasint.

True .. very very true ..

2) The SoT series, while quite clear to me and other CS supporters indicates that Tolkeen had Demonic forces before the invasion, and was willing to meet the CS with Genocide, terrorism, and other acts. Likewise, from what I'm seeing it's quite clear to Tolkeen supporters that they were the victims, and thus are free and clear of any wrong doing.

Tolkeen had demon's in it as servants .. same as Coalition create their own slave race in the dogboys.

Tolkeen never waged a genocidal war against the Coalition, or terrorism (that i know of) or anything other then a pure war. One they were doomed to lose before it ever started I might add.

Tolkeen were in fact the victums. Thats canon .. Tolkeen did not antagonize the Coalition this is as pure as it gets all BLAME for the entire war is squarely placed upon the shoulder's of the Coalition for declaring war upon Tolkeen.

3) This can't possibly be debated at this point, it's less a matter of factual information, and more of interpretation.

True'er words were never spoke ..

[Giant2005]

Yeah I'm done here.
It is obvious this isn't going anywhere - someone who considers nuking an innocent civilization less evil than summoning demons to protect yourself can't be debated with in any rational form.

No one said that Giant. I think if you just take a deep breath and reread the content of the thread as opposed to reading what you THINK we're saying you will be pleasantly surprised.

No one is saying that nuking Tolkeen wasn't a move of the utmost d!ickheadery.

But at the same time... opening a gate into hell and marching an apocalyptic army of demonic monsters to destroy the enemy and then to add insult to injury metaphorically shrugging your shoulders when your own demonic army turns on your own allies and troops is not an appropriate response.

Pepsi did

The most laughable statement you have made is claiming that my willingness to summon a Demon to protect myself somehow makes me more evil than the CS. The CS tried to nuke Tolkeen.

So? It's war. You bomb cities in war. It's still not as high on the scale of sins as willingly dealing with demonic armies and loosing them on humanity. (( Is nuking a city bad? yeah. Not saying it's not))

[Akashic Soldier]

Pepsi did

Hmm... maybe I can bridge the communication barrier through the power of music?

*tunes a guitar*

♪ Hey, everybody's looking but they never can see,
All the angst, corruption and the dishonesty.
Think about the times and places you've never known,
You're a man-swarm atom and yet you're alone,
So I give you me, I give you nothing!

I give you me, I give you nothing!

So you got a place that you can call all your own!
But you make a habit of carrying the stone!
Look around and ask someone if you are alive,
You're a sidewalk cipher speaking prionic jive,
So I give you me, I give you nothing!

I give you me, I give you nothing!

Respectable, despicable, it seems all the same!
Now we realize that we have nothing to say!
If your reserve is weak, audacity complete.
Ask yourself again, "Do I deserve much from them?" No!

♪ ♪ ♪ *guitar solo* ♪ ♪ ♪

Hey, everybody's looking but they never can see,
All the angst, anger, corruption and the dishonesty!
Look around and ask someone if you are alive,
You're a sidewalk cipher speaking prionic jive,
So I give you me, I give you nothing!
I said I give you me, I give you nothing! ♪

Phew....

[Pepsi Jedi]

Yeah I'm done here.
It is obvious this isn't going anywhere - someone who considers nuking an innocent civilization less evil than summoning demons to protect yourself can't be debated with in any rational form.

No one said that Giant. I think if you just take a deep breath and reread the content of the thread as opposed to reading what you THINK we're saying you will be pleasantly surprised.

No one is saying that nuking Tolkeen wasn't a move of the utmost d!ickheadery.

But at the same time... opening a gate into hell and marching an apocalyptic army of demonic monsters to destroy the enemy and then to add insult to injury metaphorically shrugging your shoulders when your own demonic army turns on your own allies and troops is not an appropriate response.

Pepsi did

No. He didn't. Care to show me where I said that nuking tolkeen was not a move of ********?

I simply pointed out the fact that using a nuke on you're foe, isn't as evil as summoning an army of Demons to set loose, demons that will even kill your own people if they try and stop their demonic acts.

Don't put words in my mouth.

The most laughable statement you have made is claiming that my willingness to summon a Demon to protect myself somehow makes me more evil than the CS. The CS tried to nuke Tolkeen.

So? It's war. You bomb cities in war. It's still not as high on the scale of sins as willingly dealing with demonic armies and loosing them on humanity. (( Is nuking a city bad? yeah. Not saying it's not))

Yeah.. read it. Especially the part where I say ------- Is nuking a city bad? yeah. Not saying it's not---------------------

So again. Don't put words in my mouth. Especially if you're going to quote me saying the exact opposite.

You seem to have repeatedly, perhaps.. 10+ times now, missed the part where I ....--repeatedly-- said both sides conducted horrors during the war.

I've pointed it out over and over again.. but some people don't read, or if they do, do not retain such things.

[Lenwen]

Since it appear's were talking about which side is the worse side .. morally speaking cause of the war ..

There is a clear cut winner due to it ..

Its the aggressor of the war the instigator of the war the side who cause it to go from defending their boarders (Tolkeen) from CS aggression ..

The Coalition is at fault for the entire war .. and therefor by default is at fault for every single evilness commited on both part's of both parties there in ..

That is not debateable .. period .

Tolkeen never did anything other then defend its boarder's from Coalition terrorists .. for years .. Thats canon.

[Akashic Soldier]

and therefor by default is at fault for every single evilness commited on both part's of both parties there in ..

NO.

[Giant2005]

Yeah I'm done here.
It is obvious this isn't going anywhere - someone who considers nuking an innocent civilization less evil than summoning demons to protect yourself can't be debated with in any rational form.

No one said that Giant. I think if you just take a deep breath and reread the content of the thread as opposed to reading what you THINK we're saying you will be pleasantly surprised.

No one is saying that nuking Tolkeen wasn't a move of the utmost d!ickheadery.

But at the same time... opening a gate into hell and marching an apocalyptic army of demonic monsters to destroy the enemy and then to add insult to injury metaphorically shrugging your shoulders when your own demonic army turns on your own allies and troops is not an appropriate response.

Pepsi did

No. He didn't. Care to show me where I said that nuking tolkeen was not a move of ********?

I simply pointed out the fact that using a nuke on you're foe, isn't as evil as summoning an army of Demons to set loose, demons that will even kill your own people if they try and stop their demonic acts.

Don't put words in my mouth.

How about instead of accusing me of putting words in your mouth, you read the conversation...
Even in your response claiming that I am putting words in your mouth, you re-stated the same sentiment.
Here is the quote again if you want to actually do some reading this time:

So? It's war. You bomb cities in war. It's still not as high on the scale of sins as willingly dealing with demonic armies and loosing them on humanity. (( Is nuking a city bad? yeah. Not saying it's not))

and since you posted it again, I'll give you another one:

I simply pointed out the fact that using a nuke on you're foe, isn't as evil as summoning an army of Demons to set loose, demons that will even kill your own people if they try and stop their demonic acts.

I'll finish with some simple advice: if you still feel compelled to claim you didn't say that using Demons is more evil than using Nukes, in the very least don't state the same sentiment again in the post claiming you never said it...

[Lenwen]

and therefor by default is at fault for every single evilness commited on both part's of both parties there in ..

NO.

Yep.

Like it or not logically speaking that is the truth Akashic.

No other reasoning need be applied ..

The Coalition is the 1 to blame for the entire war .. hence they are the one to blame for all the commited evilness there in as well..

[Colt47]

and therefor by default is at fault for every single evilness commited on both part's of both parties there in ..

NO.

Yep.

Like it or not logically speaking that is the truth Akashic.

No other reasoning need be applied ..

The Coalition is the 1 to blame for the entire war .. hence they are the one to blame for all the commited evilness there in as well..

The Coalition is at fault for starting the aggression. They are NOT responsible for the actions that Tolkien engaged in following the start. A person is only responsible for their own actions, not the actions that the other person takes in response.

[Giant2005]

and therefor by default is at fault for every single evilness commited on both part's of both parties there in ..

NO.

Yep.

Like it or not logically speaking that is the truth Akashic.

No other reasoning need be applied ..

The Coalition is the 1 to blame for the entire war .. hence they are the one to blame for all the commited evilness there in as well..

The Coalition is at fault for starting the aggression. They are NOT responsible for the actions that Tolkien engaged in following the start. A person is only responsible for their own actions, not the actions that the other person takes in response.

Newton's third law of motion would disagree .
DISCLAIMER: This post was made in jest - the laws of physics don't necessarily apply to social situations.

[Akashic Soldier]

Colt is right.

A person is only ever responsible for their own actions. That is just common sense.