Mind-melter scenario

[SkyeFyre]

I would allow it... why? Because that's the mind melter's ability. There's a reason they're like the most feared of all psychics (According to the main book anyways)

In Astral form the psychic may still use psionics so there's no problem with that.

It's the character's ability, to stop them from doing that would be like stopping a mage from creatively using two spells (eg. Carpet of Adhesion and Wind Rush).

I'd probably have something go wrong though to have a bit of conflict. (One of the bosses men realizes that the boss is acting weird... not himself... decides he is no longer fit to command, takes over command even if the only way is force.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I would allow it... why? Because that's the mind melter's ability. There's a reason they're like the most feared of all psychics (According to the main book anyways)

In Astral form the psychic may still use psionics so there's no problem with that.

It's the character's ability, to stop them from doing that would be like stopping a mage from creatively using two spells (eg. Carpet of Adhesion and Wind Rush).

I'd probably have something go wrong though to have a bit of conflict. (One of the bosses men realizes that the boss is acting weird... not himself... decides he is no longer fit to command, takes over command even if the only way is force.

your world must be full of some pretty pathetic commanders if they mutiny after just a few minutes of him acting weird. people DO just get sick or have off days.

[Nekira Sudacne]

i'd allow it. you can use all psionic powers while in astral form.

[SkyeFyre]

Sorry... I should have specified... depending on how the player makes the boss act they would act a certain way...

lol... and give me a chance... I just thought up the idea in like 5 seconds in the middle of class...

[Nekira Sudacne]

Sorry... I should have specified... depending on how the player makes the boss act they would act a certain way...

lol... and give me a chance... I just thought up the idea in like 5 seconds in the middle of class...

and I thought of my rebuttle in 5 seconds in the middle of class

sorry, I just really don't like how a lot of GM's feel the need to "punish" PC's for certain actions.

[Nekira Sudacne]

strict interpretation = NO, Mentally Possess Others requires touch. You can't touch the physical world in Astral form.

then how did the Psi-Slayer in the exsample in Psyscape possess that jucier that was some 30 feet away?

I say going through them in astral form is enough.

read the great article on the Astral Plane (and powers) in Rifter #9.

well, considering the fact that the Rifter artilce is mearly one GM's interpretation, I'll ignore it and use my own judgement.

[Nekira Sudacne]

strict interpretation = NO, Mentally Possess Others requires touch. You can't touch the physical world in Astral form.

then how did the Psi-Slayer in the exsample in Psyscape possess that jucier that was some 30 feet away?

I say going through them in astral form is enough.

read the great article on the Astral Plane (and powers) in Rifter #9.

well, considering the fact that the Rifter artilce is mearly one GM's interpretation, I'll ignore it and use my own judgement.

Nekira do me a favor, don't even bother reading or replying to any of my stuff...ever.

I already know what's coming out of your hole before it hits.

My response was to the person asking the question, and I don't care what you think.

then don't bother answering any questions. whats got you so pissed?

[Display-Name-Alpha]

strict interpretation = NO, Mentally Possess Others requires touch. You can't touch the physical world in Astral form.

then how did the Psi-Slayer in the exsample in Psyscape possess that jucier that was some 30 feet away?

I say going through them in astral form is enough.

read the great article on the Astral Plane (and powers) in Rifter #9.

well, considering the fact that the Rifter artilce is mearly one GM's interpretation, I'll ignore it and use my own judgement.

Nekira do me a favor, don't even bother reading or replying to any of my stuff...ever.

I already know what's coming out of your hole before it hits.

My response was to the person asking the question, and I don't care what you think.

Woah there bucko, that kind of talk gets you banned...

[G]

Strictly speaking as everyone else has said, the answer is no. Most people have said they would allow it, then again you might get a different answer if you posted this question only to GMs who have already been in the position, said yes, and had their players (ab)use the power...

In the RIFTS novels this is even done once, with the mind melter cutting the astral chord to his own body, and I believe he also uses alter aura on the body he has possessed, mind block might not hurt either to stop people from knowing its not the person who is supposed to be there. While you are at it you might as well use mind bond (or telepathy - haha - to read someones mind ) to know everything they know. Don't forget to make it so they get killed as you get back to your body if you are using mind bond, or if you want extra xp for killing the bad guy - pull the pin on a grenade or step on a land mine before you leave.

[Display-Name-Alpha]

The mind can work in mysterious ways... and its a game... why not allow it, it adds flavor and makes psionics that much more powerful.

[Chuck Lang]

strict interpretation = NO, Mentally Possess Others requires touch. You can't touch the physical world in Astral form.

read the great article on the Astral Plane (and powers) in Rifter #9.

I'd have to agree with Gadrin on this one. The RMB states, "The astral body can not [...] touch anything on the material plane" (RMB 119).

Flipping a few pages forward, it states under the "Mentally Possess Others" entry, "Range: Touch" (RMB 125).

That's just how I would rule this one with the party I was GMing. It's a good idea on the player's part, but I don't feel it falls into the rules of the game.

BTW, I like that Rifter #9 article as well; there's some good info in there. If any of you can still find that old Rifter I'd recommend picking it up.

[Larsen]

Although I would have to give the player some kind of extra experience/ or reward for being creative and thinking this up I ultimately would have to agree that in astral form you can't touch therefore you can't do this. Thats just my personal ruling on this though.

[Prettz]

Keep it cool, folks. Everyone has a right to post their input on these threads. If you don't want to read them, just don't.

[Chuck Lang]

In the RIFTS novels this is even done once, with the mind melter cutting the astral chord to his own body, and I believe he also uses alter aura on the body he has possessed, mind block might not hurt either to stop people from knowing its not the person who is supposed to be there.

Yeah, I thought I read that in those novels; I couldn't remember where or to what extent though so I didn't bring it up. Not that the novels are at all related to or considered official rules.

[Chuck Lang]

I'm glad this thread came up; now I know how I'll rule this if ever it comes up in the future.

[Borast]

Would I allow it? Yes, I probably would.

But then I haven't read the ability recently.

[Dr. Doom III]

No touch no work.

[Chuck Lang]

Actually, in Psyscape, where it lists the range descriptions, touch is described as requiring physical contact.

Sweet, thanks for pointing that out. Now I have two references to advocate actual physical contact.

[Chuck Lang]

[...] I think it's rather silly to have to touch someone to mentally possess them, so I'd allow it (though the duration of the possession would be based on the duration of astral projection if AP is shorter; I've never liked either of those powers, personally.)

Based on the severity of the power (actually taking over another person's body) I'd say that physically touching the person is a reasonable range restriction. My reasoning for this answer follows.

I usually look at a power like "Mentally Possess Other" as if I were the player. I ask myself, "Would I want to be mentally taken over by a psychic who is in astral form, several miles away, and I basically have no way to defend myself? What? I don't even get a saving throw?" My answer, as a player, would be "No. That would suck." Players hate to lose control of their characters especially when there is no chance of avoiding the possession. If the psychic were in “touching range” then the character could defend him or herself in some manner (blasting the psychic, retreating, etc.).

Additionally, I think physically touching the intended target makes sense on the metaphysical aspect as well. Through actually touching the target (the two bodys’ flesh comes into contact with one another) there seems to be a more personal connection or quality to the transference of the psychic’s soul. Basically, in other words, actually touching the target makes the action of taking over the target more real and I would think that there would be a greater psychic bond between the two targets.

Anyway, that’s my reasoning.

[Chuck Lang]

Sorry, just thought of something else.

Requiring the physical touching of the target would make using this power into a mission for the whole party.

*Start Dialogue*

Merc 1: "Okay, we have to infiltrate the base and get close enough to the leader for you to use the power. Would getting under the floor boards of his house be close enough?"

Psychic: "Yeah, I think so, these buildings look pretty rickety. If there isn't a hole in the bottom of the house I'll either make one or find another way in."

Merc 1: "We can go in under the cover of night to make the job easier. That way maybe our target will be ready for bed as well so you can actually touch his flesh. And if the target is sleeping that'll make our job that much easier."

Psychic: "Okay, let's do this thing."

*End Dialogue*

Granted, the party would be involved either way because they have to protect the body, but to be in close proximity to danger makes it far more interesting for the players and GM.

[Chuck Lang]

Heh, awesome idea. I dig it.

Thanks

We did have to haul around the limp body of our 'Melter for a while afterwards, and because I was playing an Anti-monster, I got the job of "duty driver."

I roleplayed construction of a "papoose" to carry the lady around on my back. Made it out of cargo straps, and put her in it like a backpack. When fighting broke out, I removed her and put the inert body under cover, behind a building, and once, even inside a dumpster. Hey - it's safe in there.

Sweet dude, that's why I love this game (Rift/Palladium). The scenarios that the players and GM create are so varied and a lot of times become humorous.

[Dead Boy]

... even though her own physical body was many miles away.
We had to carry her inert body with us while she remained in control of the enemy host's body.

This is the part I had trouble with. When a psi astral projects and goes on a trip, one of their greates dangers is finding their way back to their body again. Silver thread of no, this is critical problem. If the other characters are moving the body miles and miles away from the spot where the Mind Melter took leave of his body, the threat of becoing lost and never getting back to his body dramatically increases.

strict interpretation = NO, Mentally Possess Others requires touch. You can't touch the physical world in Astral form.

read the great article on the Astral Plane (and powers) in Rifter #9.

I'd have to agree with Gadrin on this one. The RMB states, "The astral body can not [...] touch anything on the material plane" (RMB 119).

Flipping a few pages forward, it states under the "Mentally Possess Others" entry, "Range: Touch" (RMB 125).

That's just how I would rule this one with the party I was GMing. It's a good idea on the player's part, but I don't feel it falls into the rules of the game.

Regardless of these excelent quotes and examples, (great work in finding these, Mindwyr ), I as a GM would still rule that the possesion is still possible. My thinking on this is, though the range is "Touch", it doesn't say that it must be a coporeal touch. Also, when a character does go astral, in effect the projection is the character from that point on until he returns to his body. As such, it is reasonable to assume that all psychic powers used by the character have their ranges based on the location of the astral projected character, not his body's. As such, a range of "Touch" dosen't actually require true solid physical contact, but the equivelent to in astral form.

[Dustin Fireblade]

The moral of the story: PB should be careful about their wording. There are tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of critics, with various backgrounds and education levels.

As things are now, there are far too many subjects which have ambiguous information.

Agreed. Especially concercing psi and magic.

[Chuck Lang]

The moral of the story: PB should be careful about their wording. There are tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of critics, with various backgrounds and education levels.

As things are now, there are far too many subjects which have ambiguous information.

Yep, you've got that right.

[cornholioprime]

I could argue that "touch" requires skin-to-skin contact. I mean if you touch someone's clothing or armor, you're not touching your target, just their belongings. Therefore it won't work on anyone in EBA, or even a full scuba suit. Even then, most people wear clothing so a called strike has to be made for any "touch" effect to take place.

Of course, I think that's a load of crap.

The moral of the story: PB should be careful about their wording. There are tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of critics, with various backgrounds and education levels.

As things are now, there are far too many subjects which have ambiguous information.

IN MY GAMES
I allow full use of psionics in astral form.
"Range: Touch" means "within touching range", not "must physically touch with a material body"

I would also not see anything really wrong in needing the Character to at least be in touching range, either...but not having to physically touch. That doesn't seem like too much of a compromise to me.....

[Nekira Sudacne]

Good points, all. Several viewpoints have been discussed that I had not even thought about, so getting a couple extra minds working has been very informative.

Wanted to add something though, regarding the actual "range" when using these two powers together (Astral Proj + MPO)
When travelling atrally, the echo of the user can move at incredible speeds, pass through solid matter like a ghost, and has virtually unlimited travel range. Having this kind of ability is truly awesome.
This in essence, provides unlimited range, for MPO or any other "touch" range power, even spells.

The problem was, after our MM successfully pulled this feat off, the use of her Astral Proj. became less important itself, and instead became more of a means to "reach out and touch" people.

What I mean is this; by using it in this fashion, our MM became unstoppable. When she needed to use other powers, all that was needed was for her to Astral Project, move into position unseen, then kill the enemy with whatever other psionic power she wished to use (Psi-sword was the most devastating, followed by Mind Bolt and Pyrokinesis).

It left several other players feeling particularly powerless despite awesome potentials in their own right; needless to say this was a topic of debate afterwards for a while. It's why I chose to share it here on the boards and see what others thought, and why.

I'm not trying to prove any points or make it sound as if I dislike Mind Melters - in fact they are one of my favorite RCC's!
But for one thing, it DID show me how a quick-thinking player can really make a MESS of a GM's world. I still remember the look on some of the player's faces when our smart MM came up with that combination.
Mostly open jaws and blank stares, holding onto character sheets loosely.

The above is the way MM are SUPPOSED to be played IMHO.

they're not upfront hack and slashers, but with a little forethought they're nearly unstoppable.

[Borast]

People...you have all forgotten the most importaint consideration when Astral Projecting...

YOU are no longer resident in you own body...it is vacant...nobody's home, but all the lights are on!

In short...possession wating to happen, and we all know there is always a possessing entity or three around!

Seriously though...when ever you AP, your cord can be seen by those in the Astral realm, and the vacant status of your body can ALSO be detected!

So, GMs...if your player(s) start abusing the ability too much to avoid situations you have prepared for them...sow them the consequences of leaving a window open!

[Nekira Sudacne]

One of the most comical moments I have ever seen was when the GM got wise to the 'Melter's tactic.

GM introduced a fantastic little NPC named Brandon Keys.
Keys was a Nega-psychic.

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm all about.
People talk about how munchy or overpowered this or that is.

You honestly think that Astral+Psychic combo would work for long? Sure it's great until you go against one of many supernatural beings. Alot of them are psychics and can see the invisible, so they can see the astral being. All they need is a spell or psionic - ANY spell or psionic - that makes the astral psychic lose sense of time, direction or ability to move. They do that and take away enough time... the Mind Melter is dead! No saving throw, no curing spells... their mind and soul are lost in the astral plane and are slowly absorbed into it. Tear-up-character-sheet dead.

your not dead if you stay in the astral plane for too long. the duration is only how long you can maintain it

after that time, you are snapped back in the body. the only way you can like that is if someone cuts the cord.

[Mack]

As to the orginal post, I would not allow a MM to AP and MPO somebody, due to the touch requirement. I would allow others to be used (like Bio-Manip).

But I would not allow the MM to use Psi-Sword, Mind Bolt, etc, against any non-astral targets.

EDIT - Forgot MPO required touch. Changed my opinion.

[Mack]

The problem with this is that a Psi-Sword created in the astral plain cannot physically touch those in the material plain, so you have the same issue as MPO

That's what I said.

[Mack]

Actually, MOST Psi abilities can be used very effectivly on people while a psychic character is in the Astral Plane.

Yes, powers like Telepathy or Bio-Manip, because they don't require physical contact.

[Mack]

The main reason I wouldn't allow things like Psi-Sword or Mind Bolt is that a SDC target has no chance of suviving. You're walking along, then your head is removed from your body. No dodge, parry, roll with impact, or savings throw. Additionally, there's no supporting cannon material of an Astral Being being able to physically affect the Material Plane. I might even disallow Telekinetics, now that I think about it.

[Borast]

Actually, an astral form in the Outer Astral can not even detect "the real world." In the Inner Astral, they can monitor "the real world." An astral being in "the real world" can effect "the real world." A punch would do no damage, but you could TK a rock, and a psi sword would actually manifest in "the real world."

Mind you, this sort of falls into the same argument as what would happen if an intangible character pulled the pin on a grenade and dropped it (the grenade, not the pin! ). The rule unfortunately is that NO MATTER WHAT, an intangible character can NOT effect ANYONE or ANYTHING...

However, there is no such ruling (so far) in regards to Astral Projection.

[Chuck Lang]

Well, I’m going to quote rules that I and another have already quoted, but seemingly not fully explored. This way all of the relevant quotes will be in one post as well.

Under the "Mentally Possess Others" entry it states, " Range: Touch" (RMB 125).

In Psyscape under the heading “Range” it states, “Touch means that the psionic effect can only be transmitted through physical contact” (33).

The key words in the above quote are “physical contact” (as was pointed out earlier by Mahooka). Therefore, the psychic must actually touch the target.

And once again, the quote from the RMB, "The astral body can not [...] touch anything on the material plane" (RMB 119).

I guess that is all the proof I need in order for me to say that “Mentally Possess Other” does not work while the psychic is in astral form.

[Chuck Lang]

lol, I don't usually participate in these debates because tempers usually flare pretty quick, but this is fun when everyone's being civil .

Bah, tempers schmempers, we're talking about a game that we all play and have fun talking about. Talking about the rules is 50%?, 30%?, 75%? (Pick a percent between 0 and 101) of the fun.

[Mack]

crosses arms and pouts: I still like my way better...

At least you're honest about it, unlike some posters I've seen.

[Chuck Lang]

OH YEA!!! OH YEA!!! ....

Actually, that's a pretty strong arguement... lol

crosses arms and pouts: I still like my way better...

That was frickin hilarious.

[Chuck Lang]

Just want to throw another opinion in there which, I think, is logical... despite what some (possibly misworded) "cannon" says.

Uh, unless you are talking about the authors of the book as miswording what they wrote, those quotes I entered are directly out of the book.

I assure you, they are not misworded, which is why I put them in quotes and cited the source.

Perhaps I do not understand what you mean when you state "(possibly misworded)," as is prone to happen in textually based conversation.

[Jefffar]

In the Between the Shadows book of Nightbane there is an example of a creature that, while Astrally Projecting in the Physical Plane, is able to affect the Astral Form of someone who is not Asttrally Projecting

[Noon]

I don't think it's about punishing players, but sticking with the game world you've read and presumably have accepted.

Rift's isn't a world where mind melters are the lord and masters of everyone and they are the elite, top political force (not places like chi town, etc). Sort of like the Mule.

The ramifications of possession during astral projection easily lead to this.

Now, either be in denial about this or get to the next point. If MM's can do this, but if there is some reason they can't rise to complete control, what is it? An 'uh, people who detect him acting funny' doesn't cut it (umm, possession can solve that if you think about it).

I mean, if you don't make something up its like 'hey, my PC has a great trick. But were going to pretend every other MM would never think of this, and pretend the world ramifications of that havn't happened to preserve Rifts as we know it'.

Actually, it is valid play to just allow this creativity. It's just a bummer when some practitioners of it see others as punishing player 'creativity', when really its basically a system bug that crashes the game world in the long run. Like in computer games, its fun to exploit a game bug. But it makes the game suck if you don't lay off for some in or out of game reason.

[RainOfSteel]

"Range: touch" is a description of range, not action. Nowhere does it say "prerequisite: must touch the target".

Actually, yes it does. Just a few posts further up this page we find:

Under the "Mentally Possess Others" entry it states, " Range: Touch" (RMB 125).

In Psyscape under the heading “Range” it states, “Touch means that the psionic effect can only be transmitted through physical contact” (33).

The key words in the above quote are “physical contact” (as was pointed out earlier by Mahooka). Therefore, the psychic must actually touch the target.

And once again, the quote from the RMB, "The astral body can not [...] touch anything on the material plane" (RMB 119).

So, it does say it, somewhere.

And the Astral Plane rules prohibit the use of anything other than specific Sensitive Psychic powers. RUE p.171

It is up to you, as GM, to ignore any rule in the books that you do not like. I do it all the time. But please do not say it is not written anywhere when it is written in multiple locations.

Instead it says "range: touch"... range being a measure of required distance only.

As just demonstrated, with cites, that is not correct.

When I'm GM,

That being the key phrase.

Psi-sword is completely okay in astral form. The psi-sword exists on both the astral and physical planes

That's stupendously powerful. But if it's okay for your game, then that's cool.

But I wouldn't allow it with a 10' pole.

Again, I ask... how is this unbalancing?

It's been described multiple times in this topic up to this point, including by the OP.

[RainOfSteel]

As a result, I can only rely on the logic that "Range: touch" is only a description of how far you have to be from the target... which is, in this case, contending for the same space.

But, as they are in different dimensions, the range between them can also be considered to be far greater than if they were on opposite sides of the planet.

The vast combined traditions of magic and psionics in RPG industry is that "Range: Touch" means you must actually touch the target, as in come into physical contact (not transdimensional colocation). Additional explanations are not provided in most places in PB materials because KS undoutedly thought everyone would understand. The only case where this would not matter is where the Astrally Projecting being was, somehow, on both planes at the same time. Astral Projection certainly does not allow the projector to be on both planes at the same time.

In fact, the rules regarding Astral Projection (RUE p.171) specifically prohibit the use of Psi-Sword, Bio-Manipulation, etc. It also specifically describes that both attacker and defender must be on the same plane.

[RainOfSteel]

There are two types of Astral Movement. On the Astral Plane, and on the Material Plane (coexistence). I think most of what is under discussion is coexistence.

There is also the line, "Third, the Astral Body is vulnerable to psychic attacks and attacks from ghosts, entities and creatures of the Astral Plane" This practically states that attacks can only pass back and forth between two creatures if the attacker and defender are both Astral.

There is also the line, "The Astral Self is little more than a mute, ghostly observer." This weighs strongly against any ability to use any psychic powers of any kind on anything in the Material Plane.

It goes on to state that the Astral Body can only affect the world through certain psychic sensitive powers, like Telepathy, Clairvoyance, Empathy. This is a limited exception list. Bio-Manipulation, Mentally Possess Others, Psi-Sword, etc., all are not going to work unless attacker and defender are in the same plane.

The rules do say the Astral Body (under "Travelling on the Material Plane", i.e. coexistence) is vulnerable to magic and psionics, but it has already covered that they must be on the same plane. It also says, "as well as physical assault by Astral Entities". Another point that both attack and defender must be in the same plane.

As for getting close to Karl Prosek, it does say animals can spot astral creatures, and so I'd say Dogboys can see Astral Bodies travelling by coexistence. The CS does have psychics, some of them undoubtedly ready to go Astral at a moment's notice.

As for the "Range" issue, I feel that the vast weight of evidence in regards to "Touch" is that the user must be in physical contact (i.e. both attacker and defender must be in the same plane). There is nothing anywhere to suggest that a non-corporeal touch is allowed, and the rules themselves (noted above) specifically disallow it ("a mute ghostly observer", "They can only affect the physical world (or themselves be affected from physical beings) by Sensitive psionic powers [...]").

All in all, I would not allow the possession actions described by the OP. They would be radically game unbalancing and produce resentment among players (as the OP noted). They go against the Rules As Written regarding Astral Space. They go against the clear intent of the rules regarding the usage of the Range type "Touch".

As for the scouting actions, or even rooting around in the enemy leader's mind, that wouldn't be a problem. I hope there are no "other psychics" around to see the coexistant PC floating around who are able to go AP.

[Nekira Sudacne]

then how did the Psi-Slayer in the exsample in Psyscape possess that jucier that was some 30 feet away.

They have that nifty ability of sleep walk that has similar affect, but only can be used when the target is sleeping or fatigued.

nither of which a juicer in combat is CAPABLE of being...

[RainOfSteel]

Well all together -Rifts RPG - Game Master Guide- has two parts of the description that seem to contradict one another, first
"The Astral body can not communicate with the physical world
except through telepathy or empathy, nor speak to, smell or touch anything
on the material plane. The Astral self is little more than a mute,
ghostly observer."Rifts RPG - Game Master Guide pg. 92

and second

"Remember, magic and psychic influence have
full effect on the Astral body. This includes exorcism, which will force
the Astral traveler to leave the immediate area (400 foot/122 m radius)
and not return for 24 hours. The Astral traveler has the same number of
attacks per melee, bonuses, hand to hand, skills, knowledge and psychic
powers that he or she has in the material plane."
Rifts RPG - Game Master Guide pg 92

They are not contradictory.

Part 1 explains that the Astral Body cannot, for the most part, interact with the Material Plane.

Part 2 discusses that the Astral Body is still affected by all those things that normally affect it, when the source of those things is another Astral Body or Astral Entity.

You also omitted:

Of course, this is a great way to locate invisible supernature entities, as well as spy on other humans on the material plane (although limited by short sprints. See duration).

It does not mention anything about being a hidden environment from which to launch attacks (anywhere in the description of the power).

[i]"The big difference between this and the physical berserker is
that the psychic bellows or shrieks in anger and falls to the
ground while his Astral Body simultaneously rises up a few feet
into the air and attacks. His rage and desire for vengeance keeps
the Astral Traveller in the physical plane rather than automatically
launching into the Astral Plane. As an Astral Being, the
character can only attack people in the physical world with his
psionic powers, but all such attacks inflict double damage (same
I.S.P. cost, range and duration as usual). The Astral form of the
character can attack with any kinetic powers, bio-regeneration,
empathic transmission, Psi-Sword, or any mind attacks he may
possess.

The Astral Avenger seems to be a specified exception, that is not something just any old psychic can do.

This goes directly to my general Rifts complaint regarding the overwhelming sea of classes, there are just too many with too many rules exceptions to keep track of.

----------------------------------------------------

Post #2000

[RainOfSteel]

Very true, my point was just that if those who gain their psychic powers through implantation are in fact weaker than their natural counterparts then any old psychic should be able to do so especially a master psychic such as a mind melter.

Touche.

I view the Astral Avenger's ability as a technologically enabled quirk that can only be acquired by random accident.

However, I see your point. If it exists at all, then someone should be able to duplicate it.

Maybe you could allow a MM to "spend" a psychic power or two to enhance basic AP?

And besides Remember, magic and psychic influence have full effect on the Astral bodyso this is not exactly an invisible enviroment from which to launch attacks with impunity.

No, I only remember that magic and psychic powers influence the Astral Self when the source of those powers is another Astral Self or Astral Entity.

Psychics may be able to see a coexistant Astral Self, but they have to go Astral to do more than telepathy or empathy.

[RainOfSteel]

I know that this is slightly off topic But would you allow this if it were a psyscape psychic in energy form and not astral form.

IMRU, I wouldn't allow it at all. Period.

It's game-breaking in that it would too easily allow for solutions to problems. Deus ex Machina is not what I want the players to be.

It would seriously upset everyone who didn't have it for one reason, or another (some would feel it was too munchkin, and the munchkins would go bonkers until they could do it as well), but in the meantime, one character would steal the show.

[grandmaster z0b]

Would you allow a mind melter who is currently possesing another body to use psychic powers?
Could a MM posess a CS soldier, walk into the base, then touch the commanding officer and possess them?

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

I'm not sure about allowing an Astrally Projecting MM, or any psychic for that matter, to possess an individual, but that's just me. There is another power that would work well, though. In Rifter #25, the Mentally Control Others power would seem to fit pretty well into an Astral psychic's arsenal. Something about being an invisible puppet master appeals to me a bit more than being an unwanted tenant in an occupied flesh suit.