Mind block auto defense

[dcg5850]

When you have a mindmage, who enjoys the benefits of this very powerful skill…. How do you view the penalties associated with it? For example, when MBAD (mind block auto defense) becomes engaged from a telepathic probe, the MM is unable to use their other skills, per the book. As an example, if the MM was in astral form, and an entity that could sense its presence, engaged the MM telepathically, would the mind mage suddenly return to its physical body, in response from the MBAD? If another entity with psionics, engaged the MM with empathic transmission, or empathy (which is essentially an AOE psionic skill) would the MBAD eliminate the MM’s ability to execute a bio manipulation attack? If not, would the MM have to use an action to drop the MBAD, then have to save vs empathic transmission or empathy, prior to executing their next action? Would MBAD negate the benefits of sixth sense, assuming a non threatening psionic skill was used in the presence of the MM, prior to a threatening action?

[Marcethus]

As to the Astral: No the Mind Mage would not return to their body. MBAD doesn't shut down powers that are active like Astral Projection. But it does stop Sensing powers from working that require the psychic to have their mind open in order to operate. The way I run it is any power with the word Sense in it doesn't work with MBAD running. Also Telepathy and Empathy also do not operate while MBAD is up and running. It would not eliminate Bio-Manipulation as that is an active Mental attack against someone else it doesn't require the Psychic's defenses to be down in order to operate. It would cause 6th sense to not operate but only when the Mind Mage is actively under the MBAD. It only snaps on in response to a psychic probe.

[dcg5850]

Empathic transmission as an example has a significant duration; the book specifically says when MBAD is up, the psychic can’t use other skills. So in your games, you don’t follow that RAW, and have a home rule top allow the action ? I find the MM to be an overpowered OCC in the RAW, and this seems to be the Achilles heel that the OCC needs, particularly with this skill, to bring in some sense of balance.

[Nekira Sudacne]

When you have a mindmage, who enjoys the benefits of this very powerful skill…. How do you view the penalties associated with it? For example, when MBAD (mind block auto defense) becomes engaged from a telepathic probe, the MM is unable to use their other skills, per the book. As an example, if the MM was in astral form, and an entity that could sense its presence, engaged the MM telepathically, would the mind mage suddenly return to its physical body, in response from the MBAD? If another entity with psionics, engaged the MM with empathic transmission, or empathy (which is essentially an AOE psionic skill) would the MBAD eliminate the MM’s ability to execute a bio manipulation attack? If not, would the MM have to use an action to drop the MBAD, then have to save vs empathic transmission or empathy, prior to executing their next action? Would MBAD negate the benefits of sixth sense, assuming a non threatening psionic skill was used in the presence of the MM, prior to a threatening action?

Using Telepathy on the body of a mind mage with astral projection active would do...absolutely nothing, because the mind isn't in the body to read.

[Library Ogre]

Although the point that simple telepathy can apparently disable a mind mage is hilarious.

[Marcethus]

When you have a mindmage, who enjoys the benefits of this very powerful skill…. How do you view the penalties associated with it? For example, when MBAD (mind block auto defense) becomes engaged from a telepathic probe, the MM is unable to use their other skills, per the book. As an example, if the MM was in astral form, and an entity that could sense its presence, engaged the MM telepathically, would the mind mage suddenly return to its physical body, in response from the MBAD? If another entity with psionics, engaged the MM with empathic transmission, or empathy (which is essentially an AOE psionic skill) would the MBAD eliminate the MM’s ability to execute a bio manipulation attack? If not, would the MM have to use an action to drop the MBAD, then have to save vs empathic transmission or empathy, prior to executing their next action? Would MBAD negate the benefits of sixth sense, assuming a non threatening psionic skill was used in the presence of the MM, prior to a threatening action?

Using Telepathy on the body of a mind mage with astral projection active would do...absolutely nothing, because the mind isn't in the body to read.

Very good point.

[Marcethus]

Although the point that simple telepathy can apparently disable a mind mage is hilarious.

Agreed.

Empathic transmission as an example has a significant duration; the book specifically says when MBAD is up, the psychic can’t use other skills. So in your games, you don’t follow that RAW, and have a home rule top allow the action ? I find the MM to be an overpowered OCC in the RAW, and this seems to be the Achilles heel that the OCC needs, particularly with this skill, to bring in some sense of balance.

I have never found the MM to be overpowered at all. It's of equal power to the Wizard and has the drawback of very limited skills, due to the hubris of they feel that they don't need education and tend to rely on their psionic powers.

[Veknironth]

Well I think that the Mind mage is way over powered.. They start with a lot of powers, gain more quickly, have access to almost everything by level 6, and can do horrendous amounts of damage in combat with TK (or super TK!). They also have such a high save needed for all of their mind and mood altering powers.

Taking auto mind block would snap into place and cut off the MM from all of his or her powers. There are some further questions though. How quickly can the MM drop that mind block to access the other powers? Is it an attack action? Is not? If they drop the auto defense in order to access their powers, and then the other psion does another telepathy or whatever, does it start all over?

Regsrding the astral projection you need to decide a few things first. The power description states that the astral form can communicate with the physical world via empathy and telepathy. But it does not say that the opposite is true. So if you're in astral form, can someone even affect you at all? If not, then the question is moot and the power is limited a bit. If they can, then does the auto defense still work in astral form? If it doesn't, then no worries. If the auto defense is transferred to through the silver cord, then once it reacts to the probe the astral projection is done and you snap back to your body.

-Vek
"Never trust a mind mage."

[ShadowLogan]

Taking auto mind block would snap into place and cut off the MM from all of his or her powers. There are some further questions though. How quickly can the MM drop that mind block to access the other powers? Is it an attack action? Is not? If they drop the auto defense in order to access their powers, and then the other psion does another telepathy or whatever, does it start all over?

Other questions that come to mind also include:
Can already active powers block the automatic deployment of MBAD? Or put another way: would an active power count as a "conscious and willingly lower"ing of the shield so that it doesn't engage?

I bring up that point because its a situation that isn't directly addressed in the description of either the baseline Mind Block power or the Auto-Defense version. Or even the variant Group Mind Block (it does state how it could be detected, but again not the specific scenario of a psychic power in active use suddenly stopping because a Master Psychic is interfering with another psychic via GMB and wouldn't be noticeable until the other psychic tried to use a power not already in use).

Now I do agree that if a psychic raises ordinary MB it would block them off, but they are choosing to stop using other power IMHO. What if they aren't choosing to stop using their other powers?

[GoliathReturns]

So, both Vek and Logan bring up very valid questions and arguments. Here's my view

Mind Mages are overpowered and broken. This leaves MBAD as a way to help reign them in.

So, early on in a combat, I'd argue that if you trigger their MBAD, it would take an action for them to drop it, and another action to trigger any other psychic powers.

However, once they're aware there's someone in the area that can actively target them with powers to activate it, they then get a choice if it'll trigger or not. They would need to make that choice before knowing what power is being used, and each attack, knowing that it will drop any other active powers.

However, by choosing to NOT let it trigger, they're purposefully lowering their defenses, and I would argue should get a penalty on any saves (or even forfeit the ability to save).

As for things like Astral Projection, it's variable. MBAD, I would argue, would send them right back to their body. If they choose to re-enter the astral realm, and have the same encounter, then they'd have the choice of it triggering, but again, have to make the decision without knowing what power/ability is being used on them.

All this allows them to still have a useful power, but forces them into decision making, and has pros and cons.

If, on the other hand, you want to strictly follow RAW, then it's going to trigger every single time, no choice, and you've just found the easy way to take stop the MM from being super powerful in combat- a level 1 psychic could just throw telepathy every other round, draining the MM ISP & stopping them using most of their powers

--
GS

[Nekira Sudacne]

So, both Vek and Logan bring up very valid questions and arguments. Here's my view

Mind Mages are overpowered and broken. This leaves MBAD as a way to help reign them in.

So, early on in a combat, I'd argue that if you trigger their MBAD, it would take an action for them to drop it, and another action to trigger any other psychic powers.

However, once they're aware there's someone in the area that can actively target them with powers to activate it, they then get a choice if it'll trigger or not. They would need to make that choice before knowing what power is being used, and each attack, knowing that it will drop any other active powers.

However, by choosing to NOT let it trigger, they're purposefully lowering their defenses, and I would argue should get a penalty on any saves (or even forfeit the ability to save).

As for things like Astral Projection, it's variable. MBAD, I would argue, would send them right back to their body. If they choose to re-enter the astral realm, and have the same encounter, then they'd have the choice of it triggering, but again, have to make the decision without knowing what power/ability is being used on them.

All this allows them to still have a useful power, but forces them into decision making, and has pros and cons.

If, on the other hand, you want to strictly follow RAW, then it's going to trigger every single time, no choice, and you've just found the easy way to take stop the MM from being super powerful in combat- a level 1 psychic could just throw telepathy every other round, draining the MM ISP & stopping them using most of their powers

--
GS

If you have to resort to turning a core defensive feature of the class into a massive weakness that makes it hard for them to do anything, it feels like the more elegant solution here is to say "I don't allow Mind Melters in my game" or "I'm nerfing these powers that are actually the problem" instead of just trying to make the class so miserable to play nobody wants to.

[Library Ogre]

This goes back to my core statement: Palladium books are not close-written; if you try, you wind up with situations like "Every Mind Mage can be completely and instantly crippled by a minor psychic with telepathy."

[GoliathReturns]

If you have to resort to turning a core defensive feature of the class into a massive weakness that makes it hard for them to do anything, it feels like the more elegant solution here is to say "I don't allow Mind Melters in my game" or "I'm nerfing these powers that are actually the problem" instead of just trying to make the class so miserable to play nobody wants to.

Which is why I stated my position was how to use it, make them choose, and not just turn it into a crippling weakness.

Secondly, I typically don't allow mind mages. I think the class is extremely broken, especially at earlier levels, anf had almost no penalties for the excessive amount of power it has.

But, for the sake of argument-
Take a black belt in almost any martial art, that is a sensei. Now, have them spar in a white belt kid's class. He, very much on purpose, has to lower his abilities. He has to hold himself back. He isn't going to use the advanced techniques he knows. He isn't going to use his max speed. He isn't going to use his full strength. He will be fighting his instincts on how to respond. He's not going to be as effective as he can be.

That is what a MM is doing by refusing his MBAD. He's purposefully lowering a portion of his defense. He's forcing his mind to remain open to those attacks. His INSTINCTS are saying "do this", and he's resisting that.

At any time, he can stop fighting his instincts, amd allow his skills and abilities to resume. But until he does, he's fighting at a handicap.

--
GS

[ShadowLogan]

you wind up with situations like "Every Mind Mage can be completely and instantly crippled by a minor psychic with telepathy."

Not entirely true. This rests on the MM actually selecting the power in question and WHEN they select it.

There are 27 Super Psionic Powers in the PF2E Main Book, barring other sources to expand the list (other PF titles, Rifts, etc). The MM does not start with MBAD at Level 1. They get 4 starting SPPs @ Level 1, leaving us with 23. The MM gets 3 SPP per level starting at level 2, 23 doesn't divide by 3 easily so lets round it up to 24 for ease of use meaning the 24/3=8 Levels, so you'd be looking at a 9th Level (=1st +8levels) Mind Mage before this has to becomes an issue, and that assumes that one is limited to the Main Book list AND that they have to actually select a power to fill a slot (given 6 more levels exist where those slots would go unused...).

So it is entirely possible for a MM character to not get hampered by the MBAD "exploit" being considered at lower levels if at all.

[Marcethus]

So, both Vek and Logan bring up very valid questions and arguments. Here's my view

Mind Mages are overpowered and broken. This leaves MBAD as a way to help reign them in.

So, early on in a combat, I'd argue that if you trigger their MBAD, it would take an action for them to drop it, and another action to trigger any other psychic powers.

However, once they're aware there's someone in the area that can actively target them with powers to activate it, they then get a choice if it'll trigger or not. They would need to make that choice before knowing what power is being used, and each attack, knowing that it will drop any other active powers.

However, by choosing to NOT let it trigger, they're purposefully lowering their defenses, and I would argue should get a penalty on any saves (or even forfeit the ability to save).

As for things like Astral Projection, it's variable. MBAD, I would argue, would send them right back to their body. If they choose to re-enter the astral realm, and have the same encounter, then they'd have the choice of it triggering, but again, have to make the decision without knowing what power/ability is being used on them.

All this allows them to still have a useful power, but forces them into decision making, and has pros and cons.

If, on the other hand, you want to strictly follow RAW, then it's going to trigger every single time, no choice, and you've just found the easy way to take stop the MM from being super powerful in combat- a level 1 psychic could just throw telepathy every other round, draining the MM ISP & stopping them using most of their powers

--
GS

If you have to resort to turning a core defensive feature of the class into a massive weakness that makes it hard for them to do anything, it feels like the more elegant solution here is to say "I don't allow Mind Melters in my game" or "I'm nerfing these powers that are actually the problem" instead of just trying to make the class so miserable to play nobody wants to.

I agree, though I don't see what the fuss over the Mind Mage is. It's as powerful as the Wizard and I find these ways of handling MBAD annoy me. I don't have access to my books at the moment so I can't put in my exact two cents as to how the power is written. But based on how I have ran it in the past, granted that was years ago as I haven't played a Palladium game in a more than a few years, I never had MBAD stop the psychic from using all of their powers. Mind Block doesn't so why should MBAD. Mind Block only stops the psychic from using powers that are mental such as Telepathy and Empathy. MBAD should do the same as Mind Block it's just automatic and instead of costing ISP each use it has a permanent expenditure upon acquiring.

[Library Ogre]

Not entirely true. This rests on the MM actually selecting the power in question and WHEN they select it.

...

So it is entirely possible for a MM character to not get hampered by the MBAD "exploit" being considered at lower levels if at all.

True, but that also requires saying "Here is a very useful defensive power, and, by the way, it makes you useless if it ever trips."

For those under the serf's parma

Mind Block Auto-Defense Range: Self Duration: Special I.S.P.: Special The moment the psychic is being mind probed, a personal mindblock automatically snaps into place. It also alerts the psychic to the fact that he or she is being probed or attacked by empathy or telepathy. The character must consciously and willingly lower the mind shield and open himself to the psi-probes in order to receive a telepathic or empathic message. Otherwise, the automatic defense mind block will stay in effect until the probe/attack is over. The I.S.P. cost is different in that the character must permanently give up 14 I.S.P. when this power is selected. However, the mind block will automatically take place whenever under telepathic and empathic probes and other mind attacks such as empathic transmission and induce nightmares, at no additional I.S.P. cost; it engages automatically.

And Mind Block itself

Mind Block Range: Self Duration: 10 minutes per level of experience. I.S.P.: 4 (per each duration period) This is the ability to completely close or block oneself from most psychic/mental emanations. When intentionally closed to supernatural or psychic forces, the character cannot sense anything, cannot use his psionic abilities, nor be psionically influenced by others. A mind block will prevent penetration of telepathy, empathy, hypnotic suggestion, induced nightmares and empathic transfer. It can be an invaluable protective mask when dealing with malevolent psychic forces. It also adds a bonus of +1 to save vs all psychic and mental attacks.

I do not think it is likely that the intention was that MBAD make a psychic completely unable to use their powers whenever it triggers, just like I don't think that we should go with a literal reading of Mind Block which puts you into a total sensory void ("cannot sense anything"), nor that you should be able to hurl people about with Telekinesis (Super). Palladium books aren't written to be read that closely, because once you do, you find tons of ridiculous things going on.

The Megaverse runs on vibes, not legal documents.

[Nekira Sudacne]

If you have to resort to turning a core defensive feature of the class into a massive weakness that makes it hard for them to do anything, it feels like the more elegant solution here is to say "I don't allow Mind Melters in my game" or "I'm nerfing these powers that are actually the problem" instead of just trying to make the class so miserable to play nobody wants to.

Which is why I stated my position was how to use it, make them choose, and not just turn it into a crippling weakness.

Secondly, I typically don't allow mind mages. I think the class is extremely broken, especially at earlier levels, anf had almost no penalties for the excessive amount of power it has.

But, for the sake of argument-
Take a black belt in almost any martial art, that is a sensei. Now, have them spar in a white belt kid's class. He, very much on purpose, has to lower his abilities. He has to hold himself back. He isn't going to use the advanced techniques he knows. He isn't going to use his max speed. He isn't going to use his full strength. He will be fighting his instincts on how to respond. He's not going to be as effective as he can be.

That is what a MM is doing by refusing his MBAD. He's purposefully lowering a portion of his defense. He's forcing his mind to remain open to those attacks. His INSTINCTS are saying "do this", and he's resisting that.

At any time, he can stop fighting his instincts, amd allow his skills and abilities to resume. But until he does, he's fighting at a handicap.

--
GS

I get the metaphor of a teacher having to restrain themselves. It makes a lot of sense.

Of course I don't find mind mages to be broken but power preferences are subjective

[Marcethus]

Having reviewed both MBAD and Mind Block I will say this. As written when it trips they can't use their psychic powers. Which doesn't make sense. I get that Mind Block when up shuts off a psychic's ability to use their psychic senses they are closed to those signals that the psychic would read in order to use them. On the other hand nothing about having a Mind Block active should interfere with powers that physically manipulate their environment. Any of the Kinetic powers or the ones that manipulate their own physiology should operate as normal. This is how I run it and have done so for decades.

I have never found Mind Mages to be overpowered in any way. Their power level is equal to the Warlock and Wizard.

[Plane]

The way I always took the "consciously and willingly lower" thing is that anyone actively using a psionic power can make the choice "I am prioritizing this over a mind block"

Based on that, if a Mind Block activates from outside their conscious choice (either an Auto-Defense or a Group Mind Block) they are pre-emptively choosing to reject that block in the process of keeping their psi active.

They can of course also choose (when using the power) to make both kinds of outside blocks a priority - or JUST their auto-defense but to reject a GMB, for example.

These are choices I think GMs should specify ahead of time when speaking to a psi who has dealt with mind blocks before and knows what they do.

It should be a pre-emptive policy.

Amateur psi who've never experienced it before should probably be surprised by their first Group Mind Block and have it shut down whatever they were doing, but after that learn they can pre-reject that 'help' when they want to prioritize something.

[GoliathReturns]

I have never found Mind Mages to be overpowered in any way. Their power level is equal to the Warlock and Wizard.

Level 1 MM starts with average of 112 ISP.
Now, let's just take one power- pyrokinesis. Specifically, function 6, the fireball.
6d6 fireball. He can throw four of them, with that ISP. One per ACTION.

A fire warlock won't even be casting fireball until 3rd level. It will do 3d6 damage. While he has a better range, he can also only cast 2 in a round (RAW, if you use the PPE channeling, a bit different). It won't be 6d6 damage until he's level 6.

A wizard won't be casting it until level 6 (unless they spend the money to buy it).

Call lightning? Same situation.

Want to discuss bio-manipulation? The best healing in the game? Mind wipe, psi-sword, TK super, mentally possess others?

When a psychic can throw a fireball sooner, stronger, and faster, than a fire warlock, call lightning sooner, stronger, and faster than an air warlock, and do both sooner, stronger, and faster than a wizard.. there's some issues.

Yes, later on, it's more balanced, but early game especially, MM is not even remotely close to balanced in power levels.

--
GS

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. I'll try to address this in multiple parts.

1: Strict reading of the rules (at least my interpretation of them last time I read them). Any psychic attack vs. Mind Block Auto-Defense would effectively negate all the Mind Mage's psychic abilities. This also does NOT seem like the intent (as I doubt it was meant to be this crippling).

2: My house rule when I ran games (and this has been like 20 years since it came up). This is a Super Psionic, not a handicap, so the Mind Mage could always opt to not let it trigger. No other penalties, they just don't get the benefit of the Mind Block.

3: If I were to make a ruling today (and I'm currently in the E.R. looking after a friend, so I don't have my books with me). Mind Block Auto-Defense neutralizes the Mind Mage's psi-powers, but only those it specifically blocks. So, it completely negates Telepathy, Empathy, and a few others. The Mind Mage cannot use those specific abilities. Since the power provides a +1 bonus vs. any other psychic attack, the Mind Mage would use others at a slightly reduced strength (giving opponents effectively a +1 save vs. the Mind Mage while using the Auto-Defense). This is off the top of my head right now, but feels like it makes sense (but I may just be tired).

4: I've always found the Mind Mage (in the Palladium Fantasy setting specifically) to be overpowered. And I eventually just ruled that I wouldn't allow them as Player Characters any more. Mind Mages have a high base save (15), can rapid fire (single action), and some don't even have saves (Super Telekinesis doesn't actually have a Save, so a Mind Mage can lift an opponent and just slam them into something repeatedly, and there's nothing an opponent can do since it's Fantasy so they typically don't have guns, spell casters need to focus on their casting which would be interrupted, etc.). But I try not to base other rulings (such as Mind Block Auto-Defense) based on my feelings of the Mind Mage.

Anyways, just some thoughts. Farewell and safe journeys.

[ShadowLogan]

Not entirely true. This rests on the MM actually selecting the power in question and WHEN they select it.

...

So it is entirely possible for a MM character to not get hampered by the MBAD "exploit" being considered at lower levels if at all.

True, but that also requires saying "Here is a very useful defensive power, and, by the way, it makes you useless if it ever trips."

I agree it can be a useful defensive power, but the "useless if it trips" doesn't even have to be a factor considering there could be other reasons for a player to not select the power:
-MBAD cost 14 ISP at selection from the character's permanent pool, depending on dice rolls it might not be advantageous to take as it will take 2 level ups for a MM to recover that 14 ISP
-As powers are not randomly rolled but rather selected, so they might pass it over for other powers for various reasons (they might think Mind Block is all they need at lower levels)

Really I wouldn't be to worried about MBAD. While it has 0 ISP cost for future uses, to keep it up would require spending ISP by their opponent, which can be more limiting for them than the MM in terms of available ISP. Especially if the GM rules that say the MM had Psi-Sword out then has MBAD triggered and allows the psi-sword duration to continue from initial casting after the MM lowers the MBAD as if nothing happens (other than the Psi-sword "flickering out" for a moment) instead of requiring a new casting of Psi-Sword.

If one is looking to stop a MM, you don't use MBAD triggering you use Group Mind Block or get a Psi-Nullifier (Rifts, not sure if its present in PF) of some kind (or an anti-psychic monster/animal, though off the top of my head I can't think of any). The Psi-Nullifier class in Rifts (at least) spends 1ISP to negate 3 ISP points, which means for counter psi-powers they have like x3 the amount of ISP the MM has (ignoring level ups or ME attribute, and the MM has more than the Psi-Nullifier for level ups)

[Nekira Sudacne]

I have never found Mind Mages to be overpowered in any way. Their power level is equal to the Warlock and Wizard.

Level 1 MM starts with average of 112 ISP.
Now, let's just take one power- pyrokinesis. Specifically, function 6, the fireball.
6d6 fireball. He can throw four of them, with that ISP. One per ACTION.

A fire warlock won't even be casting fireball until 3rd level. It will do 3d6 damage. While he has a better range, he can also only cast 2 in a round (RAW, if you use the PPE channeling, a bit different). It won't be 6d6 damage until he's level 6.

A wizard won't be casting it until level 6 (unless they spend the money to buy it).

Call lightning? Same situation.

Want to discuss bio-manipulation? The best healing in the game? Mind wipe, psi-sword, TK super, mentally possess others?

When a psychic can throw a fireball sooner, stronger, and faster, than a fire warlock, call lightning sooner, stronger, and faster than an air warlock, and do both sooner, stronger, and faster than a wizard.. there's some issues.

Yes, later on, it's more balanced, but early game especially, MM is not even remotely close to balanced in power levels.

--
GS

Palladium in general has horrific early game balancing. This has always been true in every game line it's published.

You might as well ignore the first four levels in terms of balance, it'll never be right. Fortunately the first levels do go by quickly so it's not really a long term problem. And that's why I think I object to your modifications: You're inflicting long-term weakness's to correct short-term imbalances.

I've always found the best thing to do regarding Mind Mage balancing is nothing. the early levels go by quick enough it's just a self-correcting problem.

[kiralon]

I dont like the MM for many reasons, but the fact they constantly get back isp even when being tortured is a big one, not to mention mind bolt, nothing like coming up against a level 1 character who can do a 15d6 - 20d6 damage strike straight up and still have good hth abilities. Get behind someone and they are likely dead without being able to do anything about it.
cough, mind wipe insert memory, cough
With MBAD if i remember correctly mbad text doesn't actually block power usage, that is just mb, which could be one reason it costs 14 isp permanently, or it was accidently or purposely left out of the description, we will never know.

[GoliathReturns]

I dont like the MM for many reasons, but the fact they constantly get back isp even when being tortured is a big one, not to mention mind bolt, nothing like coming up against a level 1 character who can do a 15d6 - 20d6 damage strike straight up and still have good hth abilities. Get behind someone and they are likely dead without being able to do anything about it.
cough, mind wipe insert memory, cough
With MBAD if i remember correctly mbad text doesn't actually block power usage, that is just mb, which could be one reason it costs 14 isp permanently, or it was accidently or purposely left out of the description, we will never know.

Yeah, there's a slew of reasons that, even later game, there's no balance with MM.

The speed that powers are used is a huge part of it.

But, PF has balance issues all across, not just one particular class or field.

By about 7th level, armor is near worthless in combat, which hinders your sword and board characters.

The ease of combat ability access, even for psychics and magic users, is an issue that came along with 2e- 1e's different h2h skills made this less of an issue

--
GS

[Plane]

Here's one precursor question everyone:

how many actions does it cost to cancel a psionic power that is in use before its dration elapses?

ie for the normal mind block guy - does he need to spend a melee action lowering the block b4 max dur?

If not , if it's a free action to lower it - why isn't it also a free action to lower it AS it's being raised?

[Veknironth]

Well, there is the OODA loop to consider. If someone is canceling a power that is currently functioning, they are doing it as planned. If they are reacting to something, then they have to make that decision and making that decision takes time. That is, unless, they always drop it as a matter of course, but then what's the point of having it?

-Vek
"Never trust a mind mage."

[Nekira Sudacne]

Here's one precursor question everyone:

how many actions does it cost to cancel a psionic power that is in use before its dration elapses?

ie for the normal mind block guy - does he need to spend a melee action lowering the block b4 max dur?

If not , if it's a free action to lower it - why isn't it also a free action to lower it AS it's being raised?

It doesn't take any time. It's a matter of will. Just stop maintaining it and it ceases to work.

[Plane]

If someone is canceling a power that is currently functioning, they are doing it as planned.
If they are reacting to something, then they have to make that decision and making that decision takes time.
That is, unless, they always drop it as a matter of course, but then what's the point of having it?

The idea I'm proposing is that a power can be halfway activated and then abandoned midway without consequence.

Like for example a mind melter spending a couple melee attacks on a psi-sword then deciding to bail before spending the entire melee to dodge - I don't think the psi sword activates or the ISP is lost.

The hypothesis is that a mind block can be half-activated as in you sense it beginning to form, but pre-cancel it before it has solidified enough to protect you or stop your psionics.

This would give you alertness someone was trying to protect you (Group Mind Block) or assault you (Auto Defense) but not the end result

[Veknironth]

Well, sure you can house rule it to be anyway you want. But the description says it snaps Ii to place automatically. It also states that the character must consciously and willingly lower the mind shield. To me that means that the shield comes up and can't be prevented because it's automatic. Once the MBAD is up, it operates like a regular mind block and stops all powers. The MM knows this going in and can choose whether to take the ability.

-Vek
"Never trust a mind mage."

[Marcethus]

Well, sure you can house rule it to be anyway you want. But the description says it snaps Ii to place automatically. It also states that the character must consciously and willingly lower the mind shield. To me that means that the shield comes up and can't be prevented because it's automatic. Once the MBAD is up, it operates like a regular mind block and stops all powers. The MM knows this going in and can choose whether to take the ability.

-Vek
"Never trust a mind mage."

Agreed. Though I disagree that it should stop ALL powers. I agree that it should make it to where the Psychic can't use any of the powers that Mind Block protects against but to stop the psychic from using any powers at all? That's a major hit.

[kiralon]

Once the MBAD is up, it operates like a regular mind block and stops all powers. The MM knows this going in and can choose whether to take the ability.

-Vek
"Never trust a mind mage."

My book doesn't mention the blocking of powers for mbad, and as the description doesn't mention blocking powers, only recieving telepathic and empathetic probes/messages. Group mind block however, does say it works like the normal mind block (and has no saving throw so and works from 120ft so is great for messing with other psionicists, and the only way to find out who did it is detect psionics lol), but mbad woulod't effect using their powers other than what is directly mentioned.

I have never had any player not use the mind wipe/insert memory someone when they got the power combo.

[Veknironth]

Well, in another fine bit of Palladium writing, the MBAD description does not say anything about what this "personal mind block" does. We know what triggers it, but we don't know what it blocks or which powers it negates. The Group Mind Block states that it works like the "individual mind block power" which sounds similar to "personal mind block" but it's not exact and doesn't mention the power part. So, I think it's logical to assume that the MBAD erects a mind block just like the Sensitive power and the Group Mind Block Super power. However, there is nothing that says it works exactly that way so that's fair.

-Vek
"TK Forcefield + Pillar of Fire"

[kiralon]

and it does give enough of a description of what mbad does to be a usable power, and i can certainly see a super version not having the negative of the sensitive. It is more likely that they are all the same thing with inadequate explantions of whats happening. I think the invidual word is a descriptive of the power, and not part of it, so if i wanted to play as written, MB and group mb work the same, mbad would work as described and not give +1 to saves nor block access to powers. Mind block and Group mind block would turn on, then off straight away as the user blocked their own ability to do (group) mind block
My assumption is
MB
Blocks Telepathy and Empathy based powers mind block, friend or foe. Also gives +1 to save vs mind altering magics
MBAD
Blocks Telepathy and Empathy based powers mind block, friend or foe, but the power is passively on, but you can tell when something happens and can actively decide to drop it whenever you like (1 action), for as long as you like and when actively down doesn't automatically protect if hit by something else.
Group MB
Telepathy and Empathy Jammer 120ft range, also gives bonuses like MB

[Marcethus]

I reread the descriptions of Mind Block, Group Mind Block and MBAD per PFRPG2. As written MBAD should not stop the psychic from using his powers. It snaps up into place when the psychic is probed. The psychic doesn't get any bonuses vs. Mental attack like the lesser Mind Block. Group Mind Block is the one that can be used to lock down opposing psychics.

Though I personally don't like that mind block stops a psychic from using any of their powers. It should close them off from sensitive powers and those that require them to open themselves, ie any of the sensing powers. But shouldn't stop them from using Bio-feedback powers that alter their own abilities.

[JuliusCreed]

I think the trick here is that everyone is looking in the wrong place...

Mind Block Auto-Defense Range: Self Duration: Special I.S.P.: Special The moment the psychic is being mind probed, a personal mindblock automatically snaps into place. It also alerts the psychic to the fact that he or she is being probed or attacked by empathy or telepathy. The character must consciously and willingly lower the mind shield and open himself to the psi-probes in order to receive a telepathic or empathic message. Otherwise, the automatic defense mind block will stay in effect until the probe/attack is over. The I.S.P. cost is different in that the character must permanently give up 14 I.S.P. when this power is selected. However, the mind block will automatically take place whenever under telepathic and empathic probes and other mind attacks such as empathic transmission and induce nightmares, at no additional I.S.P. cost; it engages automatically.

So... what I'm seeing here, the moment a psi-probe/attack/whatnot ENDS... i.e. at the end of the attacker's turn... the Mind Block Auto-Defense automatically lowers, thus allowing the Mind Mage to freely use his powers as he sees fit, now aware that there is also another psychic on the battlefield. Now of course, many will probably point at how it states in Mind Block that other powers can't be used while it's up, and you're right, it does say that... in Mind Block. Not Mind Block Auto-Defense. This is one of the many things that generally makes the Mind Mage superior to nearly any other Psi-Class. The MBAD is supposed to be a nearly insurmountable defense against psychic attack because it's supposed to be superior to the standard Mind Block available to everyone else.

Truth be told, the power itself IS a bit overpowered. I mean, seriously, most Mind Mages start out at around 100+ ISP and it only goes up from there. What's 14 lost forever at level one but a mere drop in the bucket? You wanna even it out? Increase the permanent ISP cost.

[Library Ogre]

So... what I'm seeing here, the moment a psi-probe/attack/whatnot ENDS... i.e. at the end of the attacker's turn... the Mind Block Auto-Defense automatically lowers, thus allowing the Mind Mage to freely use his powers as he sees fit, now aware that there is also another psychic on the battlefield.

A problem with your idea, here, is the idea that the psi-probe ends after someone's turn ends. Most of them have ongoing durations... the probe STARTS on someone's action, it ends several rounds later when the duration ends.

But, it goes back to my general point that you can't read Palladium books closely; they run on vibes, not grammar.

[ShadowLogan]

Truth be told, the power itself IS a bit overpowered. I mean, seriously, most Mind Mages start out at around 100+ ISP and it only goes up from there. What's 14 lost forever at level one but a mere drop in the bucket? You wanna even it out? Increase the permanent ISP cost.

While the Average ISP on the die rolls is 100+ between 3d6x10 + ME (which is likely another 3d6 minimum). For a typical human (assuming no bonus die on the ME roll): 10.5*10+10.5=115 ISP on average. That's 12% of their ISP pool, and not as noticeable in the end result as...

However if they roll low on the ISP 3d6 part (say all 1s) that result is 40 ISP (w/average ME) starting, which means 14 ISP is 35% of their starting pool, which is likely far more noticeable. Even all 2s means you're dropping 23% of your starting ISP.

So yes, that 14 ISP cost can be more than a drop in the bucket at 1st Level assuming less than average results, maybe even average results at Level 1. Even assuming a max roll on ISP and average ME, you'd still be talking 7.3% of their ISP which is certainly closer to a drop in the bucket.

Which leads me to think that Master Psychics wouldn't necessarily want this power at lower levels, especially with poor die rolls.

[Marcethus]

Truth be told, the power itself IS a bit overpowered. I mean, seriously, most Mind Mages start out at around 100+ ISP and it only goes up from there. What's 14 lost forever at level one but a mere drop in the bucket? You wanna even it out? Increase the permanent ISP cost.

While the Average ISP on the die rolls is 100+ between 3d6x10 + ME (which is likely another 3d6 minimum). For a typical human (assuming no bonus die on the ME roll): 10.5*10+10.5=115 ISP on average. That's 12% of their ISP pool, and not as noticeable in the end result as...

However if they roll low on the ISP 3d6 part (say all 1s) that result is 40 ISP (w/average ME) starting, which means 14 ISP is 35% of their starting pool, which is likely far more noticeable. Even all 2s means you're dropping 23% of your starting ISP.

So yes, that 14 ISP cost can be more than a drop in the bucket at 1st Level assuming less than average results, maybe even average results at Level 1. Even assuming a max roll on ISP and average ME, you'd still be talking 7.3% of their ISP which is certainly closer to a drop in the bucket.

Which leads me to think that Master Psychics wouldn't necessarily want this power at lower levels, especially with poor die rolls.

Agreed. When I have played Master Psionic characters I tend to take MBAD between 2nd and 4th depending on how the development of the campaign has gone.

[kiralon]

My players tend to not bother and rely on the better saving throws you get for being psionic

[Marcethus]

My players tend to not bother and rely on the better saving throws you get for being psionic

Yeah that does help as well.

[Plane]

The best example I can give for how I view this is to recommend looking at the text of the Psi-Nullifier on page 68 of Psyscape.

MBAD is a starting power.

Now read the text under their 2nd ability, Null Void:

Thus, fellow psychics cannot sense his presence, see his aura, sense psionics in him, sense his P.P.E., or remotely view him.
They can pick up unshielded emotions and surface thoughts via Empathy and Telepathy, but that can be prevented via Mind Block.

If MBAD always happened automatically in a way you could never opt to prevent. picking up unshielded emotions/thoughts via Empathy/Telepathy would never be possible for the Nullifer.

So it stands to reason there should be ways to prevent it from triggering, by choice.

What actually informs that choice is an issue of roleplaying and it could be tricky to avoid metagaming, that's something you puzzle out by the situation. For example:

1) "it's really important for me to be holding this tree in the air with telekinesis so it doesn't crush my friend, so I'm giving it priority over MBAD if someone tries to scan me"

2) "it's really important my friend reads my thoughts so he knows the passcode to this safe, so I'm wiling my MBAD not to trigger for the next 30 seconds to give them a chance to do that"

I don't think there's evidence one could be selective about this (ie "let friendly telepathy scan me, raise the block against enemy telepathy") but you certainly should be able to make the choice as to whether it's going to activate during a certain period of time - whether that's to prioritize the use of your psi or to allow allies to gain information from you.

If this were not possible the text under the Nullifiers' Null Void just wouldn't make sense.

Page 125 also points out the Lanotaur Hunter's "Psychic Reflexes" don't work against enemies who are using Mind Blocked. Think about this though... the Lanotaur all have MBAD as a starting power too. If you couldn't turn off or opt out of MBAD working then this would mean 100% of Lanotaur's combat abilities could ALSO be foiled just by trying to read their emotions via Empathy - because that'd snap their block into place and stop their PR from working.

"consciously and willingly lower" is clearly a pre-emptive action - otherwise the power would just snap up a 2nd mind block w/ the 2nd attempt of a psionic propbe after the 1st was stopped.

Well, sure you can house rule it to be anyway you want. But the description says it snaps Ii to place automatically.
It also states that the character must consciously and willingly lower the mind shield.

Automatic generally means not needing to spend an action to do it - not that it is automatically successful, or that it happens in zero-time, or that you are forced to do it against your will.

To me that means that the shield comes up and can't be prevented because it's automatic. Once the MBAD is up, it operates like a regular mind block and stops all powers. The MM knows this going in and can choose whether to take the ability.

You haven't really addressed the comparison I've made to a partially activated Psi-Sword which is bailed on partway.

I disagree that it should stop ALL powers.
I agree that it should make it to where the Psychic can't use any of the powers that Mind Block protects against
but to stop the psychic from using any powers at all? That's a major hit.

Interesting thing to note from Rifts Psyscape on page 152 under the Psi Blocker Implant

• "blocks the recipient from psionic mind probes and psionic communication similar to the psionic Mind Block power
  except that the effects are permanent and constant."

then under Penalties:

• "Characters with psionic sensitive abilities cannot use the powers of Telepathy, Empathy, Hypnotic Suggestion, Empathic Transmission, Deaden Senses, or Remote Viewing and will see all other psi-sensitive abilities reduced by half (half duration, range and effect)"

The "except that" clause here makes it sound like only constant/permanent duration is the difference, making it basically like a MBAD implant except unlike MBAD you can't willingly lower it.

Yet clearly other abilities CAN be used - at half duration/effect/range

This is "penalties" so it shouldn't make something BETTER than a standard mind block - right?

But if it's true that standard mind blocks can't normally use other powers, being able to use them at half power WHILE THE BLOCK IS UP would be an advantage, not a penalty.

I think if you look at the text in question it's clearly not intended to be as absolute as it sounds:
"can not sense anything, can not use psychic abilities, nor be influenced by others"

Sight and Hearing are sensing things. Does using Mind Block make people go blind and deaf?
MA's trust/intimidate and PB's charm/impress are ways you can "influence" people - does using Mind Block make me immune to Seduction?

I think if we read between the lines here - they likely mean you can't sense things using the abilities in question. Telepathy can't influence you, but you can't use it to influence or sense others. But obviously other senses/powers (including psi powers) outside the realm of the powers in question are meant to work at 100% capacity during a mind block, or 50% during a mind block in the case of someone with a Psi Blocker implant.

[Franko Tyrador]

I have a MM player and trying to balance encounters can be hard. But, with MBAD, I am along the lines of anything that the MM tries to perceive, will nto work. But they could still do any TK things, etc etc.

[Marcethus]

I have a MM player and trying to balance encounters can be hard. But, with MBAD, I am along the lines of anything that the MM tries to perceive, will nto work. But they could still do any TK things, etc etc.

That is how I would run it. Any Psychic perception powers will not operate when the Mind Block is active but TK and Bio-feedback abilities should work fine. But this only occurs when someone probes him. Otherwise he operates as normal.