When a giant eye and cosmic horror love each other very much

[Warshield73]

I've been reading a lot about the Splugorth recently and something came up that I am unsure of. In the Thundercloud Galaxy of the Three Galaxies there is a Splugorth named Desslyth Elder and apparently he has a son called Desslyth the Younger. My question is simple "What?" or maybe "How?'" I mean this seems weird. It does say in WB 2 that Splynncryth is "young for a Splugorth" at 72,000 years old. In addition to this the master vampire Hak-Talon, World Book 6: South America One pg. 40, says that believes it is possible to become a vampire intelligence with him believing it is how they reproduce.

Not counting the old ones we have dozens of Alien Intelligences in Palladium and most are single individuals like the Dweller in Phase World, Nxla in Psyscape, and several in Dragons & Gods and Pantheons of the Megaverse but on Vampire Intelligences, Splugorth, and Zllyphan (Merlin in England) the...I guess...races of alien intelligence. Has anyone given any thought to how this works? I have a lot of questions about this:

1 - Does it take two? Three? A village? Can they create an offspring all by themselves?
2 - Why would they do this. They all compete, and sometimes kill, each other so why create a rival that will just try to replace you?

Has anyone given this any thought or found something in one of the books that explain it? If so, love to hear your thoughts.

[Library Ogre]

First of all, my definition of a god and an alien intelligence are
A god has deific-level power as a result of the worship of them. Kill their worshipers and they're still very powerful, but they're mortal again.
An alien intelligence has deific-level power on their own.

Smart gods use some of that worshiper power to turn themselves into alien intelligences, but there's a balance... to do it really fast, you have to spend a lot of energy that might otherwise shore up your worshiper base (though miracles and magic). So it's a long game.

Now, for something like the Splugorth, I would say that they DO create their own "offspring", but do so to further their own ends. Having a secondary, pre-deific, intelligence can help in some ways, giving you an extra set of hands. It may even begin as a non-reproductive act, simply creating a splinter of yourself to act on your behalf... a splinter that gains its independence. If it gains enough independence, or gets enough resources quickly, it can break free.

[taalismn]

Alien Intelligence offspring also make for good expendable catspaws....they can be used as fronts and essentially cannon-fodder to draw attention away from the parent AI.

(Been reading Neal Asher, where the resident alien horrors...but by no means the worst alien horrors, that's the Jain...in the Polity-verse, the crab-like Prador, who are insanely tough, spawn offspring who are used as soldiers, labor, spare parts and food sources. Adult Prador routinely kill...and eat...their kids on the cusp of puberty because otherwise the offspring -will- kill their parent to assume dominance. It's considered the natural order of things.)

[Grazzik]

Re Desslyth, the reference of the Younger as the "son" in quotes is indicative of something odd. Then there is the reference to Desslyth's High Lords and bio-wizards possibly knowing the secrets of clone transferal - where an entity can jump from clone to clone. Perhaps the Younger is a clone which the Elder is planning to possess at some point, but in the meantime have the Younger put in the work. However, I like the idea of an avatar tapping into its own power to break free or suffer a severance of some kind from its creator, and thereby gain independence. Alternatively, it could be a bit of both, the Elder plans to wait and possess the Younger just before dying, after the Younger (an avatar given independence of some degree) has built up a PPE pool - maybe PPE doesn't pass as part of the transferal to the younger Splugorth, requiring the target to ripen before possession.

But are Splugorth and their AI ilk born? Well, AIs come from somewhere a long time ago...

Note: Intelligences are immortal and most are millions of years old, but the level of magical expertise/experience is equal to a 2D4+6 level practitioner of magic.

...and live for a long time. But Splugorth are different...

Average Life Span: 5D4 x 10,000 years.

Given their limited lifespan, why not have Splugorth have babies? Well, I'm not a fan of that idea because it makes them too relatable to mortals. Instead, there's an analogy in the books that Vampires are like a virus. So, perhaps the Splugorth are similar - but instead of a virus, perhaps they are the cancer of the Megaverse. As they extend themselves through avatars, the avatar is just a physical host that metastasizes out of control into a writhing mass, resulting in a new Splugorth.

[Warshield73]

First of all, my definition of a god and an alien intelligence are
A god has deific-level power as a result of the worship of them. Kill their worshipers and they're still very powerful, but they're mortal again.
An alien intelligence has deific-level power on their own.

I have always assumed godlings and maybe demi-gods were where gods started and as they gained power and especially worshippers they become gods. I agree with your overall power description but I also think that AI's are older, more primal. The more powerful they are the older and more unique they are.

Smart gods use some of that worshiper power to turn themselves into alien intelligences, but there's a balance... to do it really fast, you have to spend a lot of energy that might otherwise shore up your worshiper base (though miracles and magic). So it's a long game.

I don't think most gods want to be AI's, but some gods come from AI's like the Greek gods coming from Chronos. Some of the chief gods, Zeus and Odin, seem to be on par with mid level AI's anyway.

Now, for something like the Splugorth, I would say that they DO create their own "offspring", but do so to further their own ends. Having a secondary, pre-deific, intelligence can help in some ways, giving you an extra set of hands. It may even begin as a non-reproductive act, simply creating a splinter of yourself to act on your behalf... a splinter that gains its independence. If it gains enough independence, or gets enough resources quickly, it can break free.

I like this idea and it goes along with the master vampire Hak-Talon thinking there is a way for him to become a VI. A vamp is just a small part of the VI so it might make sense that this is how all three of the 'races' of AI reproduce. The problem is that a Spugorth essence has to poses a person or animal to stay in a dimension so not sure how it could go from possesing an ordinary human to tentacle monster.

Alien Intelligence offspring also make for good expendable catspaws....they can be used as fronts and essentially cannon-fodder to draw attention away from the parent AI.

I can see that being the purpose of a splintered essence that then gains independence and becomes a real tentacle monster. I guess I understand why they might do it, there just seems to be better ways of doing it without creating a rival.

(Been reading Neal Asher, where the resident alien horrors...but by no means the worst alien horrors, that's the Jain...in the Polity-verse, the crab-like Prador, who are insanely tough, spawn offspring who are used as soldiers, labor, spare parts and food sources. Adult Prador routinely kill...and eat...their kids on the cusp of puberty because otherwise the offspring -will- kill their parent to assume dominance. It's considered the natural order of things.)

Wow, that is dark. I will have to look it up.

Re Desslyth, the reference of the Younger as the "son" in quotes is indicative of something odd. Then there is the reference to Desslyth's High Lords and bio-wizards possibly knowing the secrets of clone transferal - where an entity can jump from clone to clone. Perhaps the Younger is a clone which the Elder is planning to possess at some point, but in the meantime have the Younger put in the work. However, I like the idea of an avatar tapping into its own power to break free or suffer a severance of some kind from its creator, and thereby gain independence. Alternatively, it could be a bit of both, the Elder plans to wait and possess the Younger just before dying, after the Younger (an avatar given independence of some degree) has built up a PPE pool - maybe PPE doesn't pass as part of the transferal to the younger Splugorth, requiring the target to ripen before possession.

This is something I could see an older spluorth doing. Creating offspring to try and extend its life. But, we know that some Splugorth go off and become independent beings with their own minions and kingdoms.

But are Splugorth and their AI ilk born? Well, AIs come from somewhere a long time ago...

Note: Intelligences are immortal and most are millions of years old, but the level of magical expertise/experience is equal to a 2D4+6 level practitioner of magic.

...and live for a long time. But Splugorth are different...

Average Life Span: 5D4 x 10,000 years.

Splugorth are the only AI, to my knowledge, that can die of old age. Most are immortal or effectively immortal. I think this is kind of interesting but it does make them more relatable to humans which is not necessarily bad. Maybe the Splugorth are what happens when a lesser creature becomes an AI.

As for where AI's come from I had always assumed we start with the Old Ones and they are like primal manifestations of magic and they are probably tens of millions if not billions of years old. Then comes the lesser old ones like Nxla and the Dweller who are at least millions of years old. I always figured that Splugorth, Vampire intelligences, Zllyphan and the like were created by the Old Ones as servants who were then out on their own when the old ones were put into slumber. For instance, I always thought vamps were servants of Netosa but that is just my head canon.

Given their limited lifespan, why not have Splugorth have babies? Well, I'm not a fan of that idea because it makes them too relatable to mortals. Instead, there's an analogy in the books that Vampires are like a virus. So, perhaps the Splugorth are similar - but instead of a virus, perhaps they are the cancer of the Megaverse. As they extend themselves through avatars, the avatar is just a physical host that metastasizes out of control into a writhing mass, resulting in a new Splugorth.

I like the idea of cancer. Maybe when a Splugorth is injured or driven away some of it's splintered essences can get left behind and slowly develop into a new splugorth. It might also be that it is not entirely under the Splugorth's control when they reproduce so there is an element of chaos to it.

All great ideas and insights, thanks everyone

[taalismn]

I now see an Alien Intelligence taunting its 'offspring'...
#YOU THINK YOURSELF A RIVAL, NAY, A -SUCCESSOR- TO -ME-?! YOU ARE NOTHING LESS THAN A FALLEN-OFF WART ON MY BUM! A CAST-OFF CARBUNCLE! A POPPED PUSTULE LEAKING CORRUPTION! A FLAKE OF SKIN WITH DELUSIONS OF SELFHOOD! A NAIL-CLIPPING WITH AN ECHO OF AN EGO!!!#

Yeah, this should be taken as a warning to mere mortals nearby to start putting some distance between the two AI and themselves.

[ShadowLogan]

Generically, given that AIs have access to defic powers (D&G) some of those powers might explain how they can "reproduce":
1. Manifestation Defic Power (pg95), using this power they might be considered to have "off spring", though here they would be limited to x2 if I'm following the power correctly and might require a bit of generosity in interpretation (or put another way, a variation of the power to get the desired result)
2. Create Minion Defic Power (pg92) might also work, off spring could be viewed as "minions" of their parents (for this to work might require some additional Defic Powers to be in play)
3. ALter Primal Manifestation Defic Power (pg90-1), if an essence fragment has access to defic powers (or subject to them) then it could alter a host into its primal form (possibly altering the fragment in the process?)

It might also be possible that if the AI Essence Fragment (or even the AI itself) is susceptible to mortal attraction (like Gods), they might engage in reproduce acts with Mortals that result in "off spring" that are warped into developing into a new AI. Sort of like When a God and Mortal mate the result is a Demi-God (IIRC), or when "compatible" races mate the result is always the higher order (TA and Human = TA, Amazon and Human = Amazon, Sea Titian and Human = Sea Titan, etc) though in this case the result is a new AI.

Now why an AI would do this I'm not sure and it might come down to the method that they actually use to reproduce, which might vary from AI to AI type (D&G suggests there are different grades of AI). If its Defic Power manifestation the "why" is likely going to be more different than if it was a "happy accident" only requiring one to explain why it didn't fix its "mistake".

I have always assumed godlings and maybe demi-gods were where gods started and as they gained power and especially worshippers they become gods. I agree with your overall power description but I also think that AI's are older, more primal. The more powerful they are the older and more unique they are.

I don't think this works that Godlings/Demi-Gods as the starting point, since they are the offspring of Gods so at some point you need a mechanism to create them w/o the gods being involved. More likely than not the gods started as mortal creatures who attained their status via worship (Rifts WB1o ?)

[Warshield73]

I think there are definitely different grades of AI. I mean clearly The Great Old Ones are at the top with AIs described as lesser old ones (Nxla and Lord of the Deep for certain and maybe the Dweller). I think then you probably have greater AIs like Chronos and a few others then average like SPlugorth and probably Zllyphan. The Vamps are probably lesser AIs.

It still seems kind of weird to me that the Splugorth are the only AI, and one of the few supernatural beings, that can die of old age. It would be interesting to know who is the youngest Splugorth. Is it Desslyth the Younger? Is he even younger than Splyncryth. I always wondered if the lifespan stat was actually meant to be average age but we now have a Splugorth dying of old age so guess not.

If they have limited life expectancy then it would make sense that they would reproduce.

[ShadowLogan]

I don't know if the VI qualifies as a lesser AI, but WB1:VK (original pg11, I don't know if the reference remained with revised or where it would be if it did) considers them, and most AI, "puny" Old Ones under the PF note at the end of their entry.

If the original VK WB statement mentioned above is to be believed, perhaps the Splugorth aren't related to the Old Ones, unlike the VI (and perhaps others).

Perhaps the Splugorth AI is not really a true SN being, but rather a Creature of Magic that masquerades as a SN entity? One of the defining characteristics is the CoM has a life span where a SN being does not.

[Plane]

1 - Does it take two? Three? A village? Can they create an offspring all by themselves?

The village interpretation would help avoid it getting out of hand, the Boschala for example need at least thirteen of them to combine to mate together - this is the only instance where they can exceed their normal cap of five creatures merging their MDC and melee attacks.

2 - Why would they do this. They all compete, and sometimes kill, each other so why create a rival that will just try to replace you?

The same reason evil creatures like Temporal Raiders will still train servants, or why the Sith train apprentices - you can plan to off them later if they get out of hand but view them as temporarily useful minions.

[Warshield73]

1 - Does it take two? Three? A village? Can they create an offspring all by themselves?

The village interpretation would help avoid it getting out of hand, the Boschala for example need at least thirteen of them to combine to mate together - this is the only instance where they can exceed their normal cap of five creatures merging their MDC and melee attacks.

This is just disturbing. What is this from?

2 - Why would they do this. They all compete, and sometimes kill, each other so why create a rival that will just try to replace you?

The same reason evil creatures like Temporal Raiders will still train servants, or why the Sith train apprentices - you can plan to off them later if they get out of hand but view them as temporarily useful minions.

I see training someone you see as inferior to you but creating a being of your power level who might want to replace you early .

[taalismn]

Of course, all the speculation doesn't diminish the Splugorth-porn industry any, but actually FUELS it.
This ranges from the merely raunchy to the Lovecraftian 'will drive you insane if you view it'.
And possession of which, if you're caught with it, will likely get you in BIG trouble, even if the Splugorth are laughing themselves silly at the stupid stuff, because they have to keep up appearances.
Of course, if they're OFFENDED, you're in even worse trouble.
And if it gives them IDEAS, especially with regard to what to do to you.....

And what purports to be ACTUAL Splugorth sex is actually something else entirely, like the equivalent of Splug fist-bumping or arm-wrestling, which still might get you killed, because who got close enough to record that between Splugorth anyway?

Yes, this subject is a long-running joke in Palladium, but it's got the making of some spinoff (dark) humor...everything from the reported secret Splynncryth sex-tapes triggering a caper-chase to the Rune artifact that claims to be a Splugorth reproductive/coital aide(or is the imprisoned intelligence just plain insane?).

[Warshield73]

Of course, all the speculation doesn't diminish the Splugorth-porn industry any, but actually FUELS it.
This ranges from the merely raunchy to the Lovecraftian 'will drive you insane if you view it'.
And possession of which, if you're caught with it, will likely get you in BIG trouble, even if the Splugorth are laughing themselves silly at the stupid stuff, because they have to keep up appearances.
Of course, if they're OFFENDED, you're in even worse trouble.
And if it gives them IDEAS, especially with regard to what to do to you.....

And what purports to be ACTUAL Splugorth sex is actually something else entirely, like the equivalent of Splug fist-bumping or arm-wrestling, which still might get you killed, because who got close enough to record that between Splugorth anyway?

Yes, this subject is a long-running joke in Palladium, but it's got the making of some spinoff (dark) humor...everything from the reported secret Splynncryth sex-tapes triggering a caper-chase to the Rune artifact that claims to be a Splugorth reproductive/coital aide(or is the imprisoned intelligence just plain insane?).

You are a deeply disturbed individual...I think I see another Random Roll chart coming.

[taalismn]

You are a deeply disturbed individual...

In this day and age? That makes me perfectly normal....maybe even heretically normal.

[Plane]

The village interpretation would help avoid it getting out of hand, the Boschala for example need at least thirteen of them to combine to mate together - this is the only instance where they can exceed their normal cap of five creatures merging their MDC and melee attacks.

This is just disturbing. What is this from?

Boschala were introduced on pages 155-156 of Beyond the Supernatural, and given MDC stats on 172-173 of the Rifts Conversion Book and 71-73 of Dark Conversions.

[Warshield73]

You are a deeply disturbed individual...

In this day and age? That makes me perfectly normal....maybe even heretically normal.

I didn't say there was anything wrong or particularly abnormal just making a general statement of fact. Sort of like commenting on the weather.

Still waiting on that random chart though.

The village interpretation would help avoid it getting out of hand, the Boschala for example need at least thirteen of them to combine to mate together - this is the only instance where they can exceed their normal cap of five creatures merging their MDC and melee attacks.

This is just disturbing. What is this from?

Boschala were introduced on pages 155-156 of Beyond the Supernatural, and given MDC stats on 172-173 of the Rifts Conversion Book and 71-73 of Dark Conversions.

No I went back and reread the stats for this. I must have forgotten the details or more likely blocked it for the sake of sanity and ability to get through lunch. Thanks for following up though.

[taalismn]

I didn't say there was anything wrong or particularly abnormal just making a general statement of fact. Sort of like commenting on the weather.

Still waiting on that random chart though.

I admit that comment actually got me thinking of what direction a related chart should take....
(bangbangabangbangbanghead-desk-banging)bad thoughts!-bad-thoughts!

[Marcethus]

I didn't say there was anything wrong or particularly abnormal just making a general statement of fact. Sort of like commenting on the weather.

Still waiting on that random chart though.

I admit that comment actually got me thinking of what direction a related chart should take....
(bangbangabangbangbanghead-desk-banging)bad thoughts!-bad-thoughts!

Are they really bad thoughts? Or are they thoughts that need to get excised via the creation of a random chart?

[Warshield73]

I didn't say there was anything wrong or particularly abnormal just making a general statement of fact. Sort of like commenting on the weather.

Still waiting on that random chart though.

I admit that comment actually got me thinking of what direction a related chart should take....
(bangbangabangbangbanghead-desk-banging)bad thoughts!-bad-thoughts!

Are they really bad thoughts? Or are they thoughts that need to get excised via the creation of a random chart?

...Could it be both?

[taalismn]

I imagine some minion or slave out of the blue given charge of what looks like a baby Splug, and told to take care of it. Or else.
Scant information is provided, but the new 'nanny' is given a surprising amount of leeway and is pretty much left alone with the...whatever it is.
Now, the quandary begins. Is this real? Is this an opportunity to gain prestige, sabotage a Splugorth lineage, an opportunity to escape and maybe sell the child(?) to the alien intelligence's rivals/enemies? Does, beyond a certain point, the child up and eat their caretaker?
Or is it all a test?

[Library Ogre]

Eyes of Eylor are baby Splugorth. Only those that survive without being turned into an alarm clock or something grow up to be big Splugorth.

[taalismn]

Eyes of Eylor are baby Splugorth. Only those that survive without being turned into an alarm clock or something grow up to be big Splugorth.

Good thing too, otherwise they'd grow up traumatized by everything they had to see while part of a TW device.
Still better than the Zembhak who wind up as the worm in Splugorth tequila.

[Library Ogre]

Eyes of Eylor are baby Splugorth. Only those that survive without being turned into an alarm clock or something grow up to be big Splugorth.

Good thing too, otherwise they'd grow up traumatized by everything they had to see while part of a TW device.
Still better than the Zembhak who wind up as the worm in Splugorth tequila.

The Splugorth think Cypher referring to Neo as "Coppertop" is HILARIOUS.

[Warshield73]

I think this is another situation where I take from Goa'uld from Stargate. We have a few Splugorth identified as female, including Roxcryth from DB6 so I think this might be a birds and bees situation just not sure I want to know how it works. I think since the only example of a splugorth "child" is the guy in Thundercloud who is just a continuation of the original just hard to understand where they come from.

[Warshield73]

This is another situation where I am tempted to take from Goa'uld from Stargate. We have a few Splugorth identified as female, including Roxcryth from DB6 so I think this might be a birds and bees situation. However, we only have one Splugorth who's parentage is known and we only know the "father".

I have to admit, for the Vampire intelligences I really like the idea of a master vamp, a once mortal being, going on a journey through arcane rituals to "elevate" itself to an immortal VI. We know the Splugorth have children, but we have no examples of any ruling as king and queen and they are also the only supernatural intelligence that has a life span with all others being immortal (we don't know for sure about the Zllyphon from WB3 but they don't have a lifespan printed) so it makes sense they have children. We also know they are social with other Splugorth visiting each others kingdoms so maybe mating but it just feels like it should be more.

A few alternative ideas have popped into my skull recently like maybe they are similar to timelords where when they get towards the end of their life, they generate an offspring to take their place. This model would suggest a shrinking population though as a Splugorth would only produce one spawn and some would die before they could reproduce.

We also don't have a great reason for why they reproduce. We know they compete with each other and even kill each other, why do that and then create a competitor.

Another thought was that two or more splugorth would band together whenever one wanted an offspring and perform a ritual. I was thinking a pyramid at nexus or better, during a major celestial event and a few hundred mortals for sacrifice. at the appointed time the ritual would cause the mortals to start to melt together, while alive and conscious, into a gestalt that slowly, let's say a decade or so, solidifies into a young splugorth.

The idea of a splugorth splinter essence slowly becoming its own separate being, as mentioned earlier by Ogre has some appeal. I could see this as being much like pregnancy were sometimes a splugorth performs rituals to turn the essence into its own being and other times it's an oopsie.

The splugorth to me are really interesting villains for supernatural intelligences in that they act both like SIs (possession, witches, causing the suffering of mortals) but in other ways they act like mortal conquerors and businessmen. They have none of the nihilistic or grandiose plans of a Dweller or Nxla. They have their somewhat interconnected kingdoms trading slaves and selling magic.

The splugorth were created almost 30 years ago and they are such a major part of the setting but it feels like nothing has been done with them.

[Warshield73]

Another weird thought here. You have a young splugorth, however they were made, what do they do? How are they given their first highlords and such. Is there a training program, unpaid internships working for an older splugorth until they are ready to strike out on their own? Just wondering.

[Plane]

There are high lords who rebel so they could steal them off other splugorth but I could def see internships where they work under expeirenced splugorth

[Library Ogre]

I imagine it is less "internship" and more "slavery". Splugorth aren't exactly ideologically dedicated to freedom for everyone. Young splugorth wind up enslaved to another until they can break free, and make it too expensive to take them back. I'd wager some of the high lords go with the new splugorth, some as slaves, some looking to be top of a small hill, rather than middle of a big one.

[Warshield73]

There are high lords who rebel so they could steal them off other splugorth but I could def see internships where they work under expeirenced splugorth

Not sure if internship is the right word...

I imagine it is less "internship" and more "slavery". Splugorth aren't exactly ideologically dedicated to freedom for everyone. Young splugorth wind up enslaved to another until they can break free, and make it too expensive to take them back. I'd wager some of the high lords go with the new splugorth, some as slaves, some looking to be top of a small hill, rather than middle of a big one.

I was going to say what he said.

I think this is also a situation you could see a splugorth using a younger one as a catspaw as mentioned earlier. Older more powerful splugorth gives young up and comer a few thousand highlords, couple million kydians, and maybe a few others then points him at a target and says good luck. If he looses hey I didn't do it, it was that young guy you killed or ran off.

I could also see a splugorth who has a holding, of any size, that is under attack and they feel like defending it would be too costly so he hands it over to the new guy and says "all yours and good luck".

I also think a situation like what you have in the Anvil galaxy where the Splugorth flees or dies you can imagine a number of young ones descending on the rotting corpse to carve up there own little kingdom.