Everything you think about the VF-8 Logan is probably wrong

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Let's cut to the chase: the Logan is not, has never been and demonstrably will never be 'lightly armored' and/or 'lightly armed'. The people who wrote those statements didn't pay attention to the series. The various RPG stats have almost all gotten this completely wrong, making the Logan less armored than (say) the Valkyrie. The exact opposite would be true. The Logan is 1/6th the volume of the Valkyrie, but only 1/2 its weight. It doesn't take a genius to figure out why. The Logan is literally a flying armored bathtub. I'm not saying its unbeatable, btw, so save that strawman for someone else.

The idea of the Logan being less armored than the Valkyrie is absurd on its face for a number of reasons. First, when comparing apples to apples (Cannon Fodder Veritechs to other Cannon Fodder Veritechs) we can see the Logan takes multiple hits (3+) from what are clearly Anti-Tank Grade weaponry (no mecha-grade beam weapon in Robotech is going to be doing much less than a dozen Mega-Joules in energy) as seen in Southern Cross. We also see that Cannon Fodder Logan's can deflect incoming beam fire, taking roughly 6 strikes along the edge of the wing/shield, completely ablating them away in the process. That is a level of material technology that simply does not exist for the Valkyrie or 1st Generation Destroids. It likely doesn't even exist for the 2nd Generation Destroids and 2nd Generation Veritechs: VF-3 Raven II (aka the Delta Fighter), VF-4 Artemis, VF-5 Sylphide, VFA-6 Alpha and VA-1 Condor. The Valkyrie (like other large mecha) have Galileo's Square Cube Law to contend with, and the larger surface area means less can be devoted to armor. It simply doesn't have the mass budget to devote to protection like the Logan can because of a number of factors (not the least of which is its made with half-understood technology nearly 2 decades before the Logan).

We also know Cannon Fodder Alpha's, for example, can be killed by a mecha that wields a blade for its weapon as shown in The Invid Invasion. And we know a Hero Valkyrie (Rick Hunter) can be crippled by a low-velocity impact against sharpened prongs (the armor is literally pierced front and back to come out through the chest plate of the Valkyrie) as shown in First Contact. By comparison, we know a Hero Logan (Marie Crystal) can survive a high speed head-on impact with a Bioroid and only have a wing sheared off and part of the fuselage crack (the canopy literally stays intact) after being caught by Sean Phillip's Hovertank in Star Dust.

Fans need to rethink everything they think they know about Logan. Yea, it doesn't carry a large amount of expendable ordinance. Big deal. It can't 'Zoom and Boom'. So. What. Its got a rapid-fire nose-mounted beam cannon that can be used in all modes and a rapid-fire beam gun pod that can be fired in Battloid. We know that BVR missiles have been rendered almost obsolete due to the enemy's ECM/ECCM technology that even makes visual identification difficult as shown in False Start.

The fact is the Logan has been very poorly represented by every RPG licensee, including the current one. Some of this is due in part to those involved literally not watching the show and relying on 'what they think they know'; ie - letting their aesthetic bias cloud their judgement. I'm not saying you have to like the Logan. Hell, you can hate it for all I care. But don't sit there and claim its 'weak' and then use the RPG as justification for that claim. You wanna prove me wrong/claim I'm full of drek? Then prove me wrong, but USE THE SHOW as the evidence.

[ShadowLogan]

Fans need to rethink everything they think they know about Logan. Yea, it doesn't carry a large amount of expendable ordinance. Big deal. It can't 'Zoom and Boom'. So. What. Its got a rapid-fire nose-mounted beam cannon that can be used in all modes and a rapid-fire beam gun pod that can be fired in Battloid. We know that BVR missiles have been rendered almost obsolete due to the enemy's ECM/ECCM technology that even makes visual identification difficult as shown in False Start.

It isn't just the FANS it is also HG/licensors.

I do agree with you about the expendable ordnance. If we look at ASC mecha as a whole, on average they are appear to be missile light even before the arrival of the ECM wielding Masters. It does appear that the ASC doctrine for some reason shifted away from missile reliance and shifted to more of a close range "gunfighter".

I also agree about the Logan's guns. WHEN we see it HIT they are pretty devastating to Bioroids resulting in "red shirt kills" (Marie does duel Zor Prime, so main character plot armor here), but there are numerous examples where we DO NOT see the shots hit either because it wasn't shown (most cases) or dodged/evaded. The shots that are incomplete might skew peoples thinking I think, they assume the shots hit and did not damage (no explosions) but give the other shots it seems just as/if not more probable that it missed for some reason.

The fact is the Logan has been very poorly represented by every RPG licensee, including the current one.

I can't speak for the stats in the current holder (don't have any of their books), but I have to point out that the 1E PB version of the Logan is not "poorly represented" overall (I'm not saying there aren't issues):
1. it has the 2nd most powerful (series) Veritech equipped gun (nose) in the game when you consider range and damage on a per attack basis, eclipsed only by the VHT's Ion Cannon.
2. the Logan's nose gun is also potentially the most powerful Veritech Gun system in the 1E RPG, 1d6x10 per attack (4-5 @Level 1) with unlimited payload allows it to eclipse the VHT's Ion Cannon due to ROF/Payload issue. Destabilizers being one-trick ponies with their special ability to punch holes in force fields, they don't have the range or payload (which is inferior to the Logan's gunpod)
3. the Logan's Speed in F and G (accurate to the dialogue) was not the slouch it comes across in 2E (based on HG stats, which are influenced by the uRRG which AFAIK have no basis in the OSM). The F mode is the 3rd Fastest (series) VF in F mode (Beta/Super VF-1) and the FASTEST Guardian mode (the others basically being static, the Beta being slightly slower)

Where it has issues (in the 1E) mechanically is the MDC assigned to it, which seems to be "smaller" size means "lower" armor values (common for the ASC I would say, though the VHT breaks that and the AGAC is "sized" approx. to an Alpha IIRC). Mechanically its bonuses aren't better or worse than other (series) VFs overall (due to the shields its better at parry with them). Note though that if laser weapons where the main weapons of the enemy the ASC mecha armor would be "comparable" to the RDF/REF armor of 1E in many cases (assuming we try to match roles).

quick Note: by Series Veritech I mean Veritechs that appear in the animation, I am not considering PB's "prototypes" found in Bk6r or Bk8, nor the accuracy of Palladium (Vindicator)

Spoiler:

I did a side project to calculate VF thrust using experienced Drag Forces last year, while the results omit certain factors (that can reduce and increase drag) the preliminary results end up giving the Logan a T/W ratio of 4.97 using Canon/2E speeds (better than the AGAC ironically) and using the 1E PB RPG stats was 43.1 (the king of 1E VF mecha I looked at, the Beta was next "closest" and that was by a decent gap). This also assumes that a Drag @ Listed Speeds does not exceed 33% of Maximum Thrust (based on a sampling of real world aircraft being averaged)

I also did another side project that I completed comparing combat effectiveness of the PB RPG mecha. At least for 1E, the Logan actually beat out the regular VF-1 (which landed smack dab into the range of Cyclone configurations I considered), in 2E with the "bias" it didn't do as good, when going up against the alien mecha (only alien mecha, though it did better against non-Zentreadi). I haven't posted this due to the shear size of the results of the mecha breakdown (over 10 pages per edition, not posting friendly).

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

It does appear that the ASC doctrine for some reason shifted away from missile reliance and shifted to more of a close range "gunfighter".

Well, the UEDF moved its long range missiles to the Arbalest vehicles (and presumably others). For short range it had the vehicles like the M-70 Kodiak and such. I think a lot of fans don't grasp that mecha bearing missiles like the Destroids would be an absolute pain to reload in the field. Conversely, vehicles like the Arbalest have an easy reload system (we see the rear of the vehicle a handful of times and you can see where the missiles can be reloaded).

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

I can't speak for the stats in the current holder (don't have any of their books)

They repeated the outright lie that the Logan's guns are underpowered:

Even though the VF-8 type fared well against the Masters’ Bioroids at the start of the war, the Logan was too lightly armed compared to other mecha in use by both sides.

They also gave it Armor (1) equal to the Battlepod (1), but less Structure (1) than the Battlepod (2). I gave up arguing with them because they're imbeciles and refuse to listen. They refuse outright any/all complaints, even when shown direct evidence from the Tv series, such as their idiotic claim the Chimera is slower than the Ajax in space. This despite that claim being shown to be wrong in when we see Chimera's outrun Ajax in The Hunters when a trio of them are trying to get away from the Tristar's Orbital Warp Blast maneuver.

[ShadowLogan]

Well, the UEDF moved its long range missiles to the Arbalest vehicles (and presumably others). For short range it had the vehicles like the M-70 Kodiak and such. I think a lot of fans don't grasp that mecha bearing missiles like the Destroids would be an absolute pain to reload in the field. Conversely, vehicles like the Arbalest have an easy reload system (we see the rear of the vehicle a handful of times and you can see where the missiles can be reloaded).

It likely isn't just the missiles, its all the projectile based weapons (the projectile guns might be "easier" due to their smaller size than missiles but...) given they are all at roughly the same height above the ground (Monster being larger, and the Tomahawk does have the lower hanging leg missiles being the exceptions).

What little we see of the RDF and ASC nt-Battloids in their "hangar berths" is they are standing erect, which likely means that servicing them takes place in a similar position and potentially requires some degree of specialization to (I doubt you could just park a Defender in a Monster slot, or go cross saga). Field servicing likely is a pain requiring additional support vehicles/mecha capable of accessing those greater heights.

Makes me wonder if either organization utilized something like a mobile ballistic missile launch vehicle that stored the BM horizontally and then raised it to a vertical position for launch only substituting the nt-Battloid for the BM (I know Gundam franchise utilizes something like this in a few shows at least)?

They repeated the outright lie that the Logan's guns are underpowered:

I'm not surprised. While one could play word games due to the wording HG uses as being vague I doubt that is the justification though.

Its like what I said earlier, you have to get HG to change their mind (which isn't likely to happen w/o a change in leadership). The licensor(s) might be ham strung by them no matter how much evidence is provided.

[Jefffar]

They repeated the outright lie that the Logan's guns are underpowered

The Logan has one of the nastiest mecha mounted guns in the game. It basically ignores the armour of any mecha sized target.

[ShadowLogan]

They repeated the outright lie that the Logan's guns are underpowered

The Logan has one of the nastiest mecha mounted guns in the game. It basically ignores the armour of any mecha sized target.

If we're talking the 1E PB RPG you are right, 8k ft range (VHT Ion Cannon and AJAX "gunpod" match this), CHTH ROF (best), 1d6x10 per attack (2nd best). The 2E PB version of the weapon (by RAW) is lack luster in comparison* being shorter range and damage than its gunpod!

*unless multi-barrel weapons in the TRM and NG saga in 2E you're supposed to multiply them out by the number of barrels as "obvious". This would fix the Logan's nose gun, the Silverback's x2 barrel railgun (no real advantage to it over the x1 barrel version), the Alpha's gunpod (3 barrel), and likely several others I'm not thinking of.

[Jefffar]

Talking about the game from Strange Machine which I believe RSCF was referring to.

[taalismn]

I always regarded the Logan as the VW Bug of the Veritech line; light, reliable, affordable, tough, easy on parking space, if rather limited utility-wise.
The VF-1 Valkyrie's the Mustang of the Veritechs.
The Alpha, judging from the above comments, seems to be a Ford Pinto....

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

The main takeaway is the Logan should absolutely have more armor than either the Valkyrie or the Alpha. Both are limited by the Square Cube Law and the Alpha has to make allowances for the all the micro-missile launchers in its hull. That eats up a ton of the mass budget. The Valkyrie is even worse because its so much larger. Just like the asinine over estimation of the armor on the Zentraedi mecha vs the Bioroids. Its upside down and arse backwards of how it should be.

[ShadowLogan]

I'm not sure I would go with more armor for the Logan compared to the Valk or Alpha (in PB's estimation of the main body), that isn't to say some locations might not make up for it (like the wing/shields, something lacking in PB 2E and I can't speak for SMG's version) due to combat use doctrine (ie Logan has parrying shields, it would make sense to factor them in*).

The only reason I would not push for more armor than the VF-1/6 though is you'd have to show that the various mecha are also armored using the same materials and the possible presence of "exotic" features is consistent (as examples: laser resistant materials in the dialogue, Macross's Energy-Conversion-Armor from OSM background, etc). There would seem to be a bit more to consider than just the simple mass/volume of the mecha. At least in game terms it might also be worth considering just what goes into the "armor" value, it might not just be "armor" but other things (in PB system if you take enough damage you can start to have system health issues so we know it isn't just armor) included which might give the larger mecha a "boost" (the Logan's smaller size might prevent the inclusion of heavily redundant systems for example).

At least in terms of the Palladium RPGs (I can't speak for the SMG line), in the 1E the Total MDC to Mass ratio the Logan actually had a better ratio than the other regular Veritechs (not counting the Cyclones) for the series mecha (3rd w/their "prototypes" included 2nd best is their "Super Logan" and then the VF-1X), and in 2E that didn't change (not counting the Cyclone and Silverbacks). So it might not look like it just looking at the "Main Body", but there is a Point-of-View (even if abstract like this) that establishes the Logan has better armor even if it doesn't look like it.

*

Spoiler:

In the previously mentioned RPG evaluation I did factor this in with one battle scenario (there where several). I really have to get around to posting the results even if its just the summary.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

The only reason I would not push for more armor than the VF-1/6 though is you'd have to show that the various mecha are also armored using the same materials and the possible presence of "exotic" features is consistent (as examples: laser resistant materials in the dialogue, Macross's Energy-Conversion-Armor from OSM background, etc). There would seem to be a bit more to consider than just the simple mass/volume of the mecha.

Sorry, but you're wrong. The volume and mass absolutely are limiting factors for the Valkyrie and the Alpha as far as armor because of Galileo's Square Cube Law. Its also like the difference between RHA and Composite Laminar. You cannot explain the Logan's mass otherwise.

- First off, there is the obvious advances in material sciences over the Valkyrie (~20yrs). The Valkyrie cannot have been built with materials more advanced than by 2004/05 to be able to reach mass production and introduction by 2007. They were also obviously produced using Stand Production, whereas the Alpha and Logan were almost assuredly produced using the Robotech Satellite's (1, 2 or all 3). These behemoth factories likely would also have made the advance in material sciences possible.

- Then there is the apples to apples comparison: Valkyrie cannot absorb low velocity impacts vs the Logan (let alone high velocity ones: Roy's comments on the crashed Test Valkyrie vs Marie's impact against the Biroid and Sean catching her mecha in Battloid); Cannon Fodder Valkyries tend to be destroyed in 1 hit by enemy mecha, Cannon Fodder Logans tend to be destroyed in 3+ hits from enemy mecha, Cannon Fodder Alphas can be destroyed by enemy bladed weapons.

- Only some components are going to be analogous between the vehicles vis-a-vis mass: the cockpit module and (probably) the engines. But the Reflex Furnaces obviously have to shrink to fit the Alpha, let alone the Logan. And the beam weapons also obviously advanced over the Valkyrie because the Logan's don't overheat (and also have obviously got to shrink to fit into the hull).