What If Tolkeen Won...

[pblackcrow]

What if Tolkeen won the war? Players went back in time with a game plan, sent a clean up crew after in, following the sorcerers revenge, got as many CS dead bodies as the could with a summoner and animate dead, then teleports them to a group of necromancer, who turn them into zombies, then they put them back into their armor and vehicles, and sends them north to fight with and distract the Xiticits. During this, one of them transform into a faerie, cast invisibility superior, and go flying into the hive. Placing bombs (that are hid in an D-Envelope which has been cast on a backpack and the backpack shrunken and then unshrunken) close enough to kill the 4 of the queens and egg chambers. Press the timer button, and teleport out. Bang, bamb, boom! The CS take the blame and become public enemy #1 to the bugs. The bugs actively hunt down and fight the CS on their own now.

Also, they kinda teleported a dragon in to the CS throne room when the emperor was doing one of his a live broadcast with son and 2 generals. So, they are dead now. I am considering making the empress the new head.

[darthauthor]

In my opinion the Coalition would not have won the way they did.

There is a story idea

Temporal magic.

Or a Shifter who takes the player to a parallel dimension where they get a second chance to save Tolkeen with the knowledge of what happened in their dimension.
Only things change as the players change them.
Maybe they have to duck and hide from their alternate dimensional selves.

Maybe they try to tip off the Tolkeen intelligence / defense forces but no one believes them.

When things the players claim start to come true. Tolkeen defense forces start acting on the players intell only that causes things to change.

I'd play it limited to what the player's characters would know. So maybe . . .

The location of CS prison / labor camps.

The know about the CS army in the Xiticix hivelands.

Gives the players a chance to replay situations and battles and see what happens if they played it differently.

[Grazzik]

While I think how the Coalition Wars books played out is bogus for many reasons, most of which have been documented ad nauseum in other topics, I actually do enjoy games set in Minnesota after the fall of Tolkeen. It's literally a giant sandbox where every faction is there. But let's say Tolkeen makes it through because the war was aborted for one reason or other - either a stalemate or their enemy was vanquished. Even in the best of circumstances the future is not rosy for Tolkeen because this is Rifts and one magical polity (FoM) vs one techno polity (CS) is enough.

A) It'll never go back to what it was, so a stalemate would in that case be the best outcome for the CS. You'd have a heavily fortified and militarized borderland. Smuggling in both directions would be rife. Skirmishes frequent, but limited. The demonic elements in Tolkeen still festering.

B) A vanquished CS would lead to eventual CS collapse which is bad for most everyone in the setting as the CS runs the Universal Credit system and there's too much wealth at risk to allow that to happen.

C) A weakened CS could rack up debt with NG/MI/Whykin etc to resupply and rebuild on the pretext that they plan to restart fighting, but instead use diplomacy and subterfuge to annex smaller states like Whykin and possibly invade NG/MI to annex resources or eliminate the massive debt. Always bad idea to sell massive amounts of military hardware to a bigger neighbor on credit.

D) Tolkeen devolves into a civil war given many communities or warlords having grown to be autonomous and self-sufficient during the war with a weakened central authority.

E) Tolkeen wiped out anyway for some other power that seized the opportunity and CS stands by, waiting to pounce on the weakened victor, if possible.

[Killer Cyborg]

What if the Earth orbited the moon?

[Grazzik]

What if the Earth orbited the moon?

<chuckle> so true

[drewkitty ~..~]

They would of won if the authors hadn't changed the rules before those books were written.

[Killer Cyborg]

They would of won if the authors hadn't changed the rules before those books were written.

I don't really agree, BUT rather than argue about what the result might have been, I'll just agree that all the rule and setting changes between the time the Tolkeen War was foreshadowed, and the time it eventually happened, undermined the entire narrative.
As well as any number of flaws within that narrative.

I remember in the early days of Rifts thinking about how TW Converted energy weapons did less damage and had less range than the tech equivalents, BUT there was the benefit of them not needing a supply chain to get them fresh E-Clips and such regularly, which would be pretty good for a smaller army using asymetrical warfare.
Just for example.

Just like I wondered how the Skelebots would fare against Quebec's Glitter Boys when that inevitable war came around.

Little did I know that Palladium would introduce a massive number of new and much more powerful spells in FoM, along with new technowizardry, or that the face of techno-wizardry would change signficantly, that the burst/spray rules would get 86ed, that the number of base attacks per melee would change, that the CS military would get a huge power boost to keep up with general power creep, that a zillion other rule changes would have happened, AND that when the war finally came, the CS would not only decide to fight two wars at once on two fronts, but that they'd throw their anti-glitter-boy robot army at the one team with NO Glitter Boys, and that the CS would basically use mook swarm tactics instead of any real strategy.

And, of course, the absolute fumbling of the rules for Xiticix behavior.
Yeesh.

[Fenris2020]

If Tolkeen had won, all of the cringy CS fan-boys would be weeping uncontrollably.

[ShadowLogan]

What if Tolkeen won the war?

Define the parameters of "won the war", and I don't mean that to be snarky either since "won the war" can take many different forms (can range from "push the CS back to their boarders" to "CS nation state dissolves").

got as many CS dead bodies as the could with a summoner and animate dead, then teleports them to a group of necromancer, who turn them into zombies

Zombie creation has very strict creation rules that might make this difficult to pull off since the body can only have been dead for no more than 6hrs in addition you have to consider location (graveyard/burial place) and timing (night of a Full Moon, which means 1-3x per 28day lunar cycle), plus be done in secret (this bit I admit is a bit vague). There is also the supply of candles and linen.

Switching to Mummy instead of Zombie AFAIK doesn't have the above restrictions (there is of course the supply of wrappings and the mystic solution), granted you don't get the same level of ability. Still it seems the one ideal given you don't have control over how long the CS bodies have been dead (I suppose you could cast resurrection on them only to kill them later) and a way to use "expired" bodies. It also has the advantage of being faster to produce (assuming adequate supplies and no PPE shenanigans one 8th level mage can do 365x Mummies per year or 36x Zombies per year)

A topic I started about Magical Automaton Production (no replies, it is also old so I don't know if it would get locked for necro posting or not) that I did not wish to derail another thread on:
https://www.palladiumbooks.com/forums/v ... p?t=185482

The bugs actively hunt down and fight the CS on their own now.

I don't think the plan would drive the bugs to actively target the CS, I think you might be giving them to much credit in terms of intelligence for it to work.

that the number of base attacks per melee would change

Not to take this on a tanget, but the base number of attacks per melee did not changer per say. My hardcover (silver) Rifts Main Book had a "reminder" in the "Psychic Combat" APM section (pg37) that granted "All player characters automatically start off with two attacks/actions per 15 second melee. Additionally attacks per melee are gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing." Though then goes on about NPCs also function this way. While I don't have a first printing of the softcover, it would seem that the base APM was changed well before SoT series. But I will go so far as to agree that it was easy to miss (and we didn't apply it).

[Prysus]

If Tolkeen had won, all of the cringy CS fan-boys would be weeping uncontrollably.

Greetings and Salutations. When I read the above, my brain just translates it to ...

"If Tolkeen had won, the thread title would instead be What if the CS Won ..."

Which I find interesting, and probably fairly accurate. Because I doubt much would change.

In setting, Tolkeen would probably now be major villains. Stuff like human sacrifice, feeding babies to demons, etc. This would probably all be justified as them attempting to maintain their power and keep another CS from rising (or to defend against their allies or some such). Why? Because Palladium really, really likes focusing on villains. So, if Tolkeen won, they'd just be the new North American bad guy to hate.

Fans would still be saying the other side should have won for whatever reason. People would probably still argue most of the same points, as the books would involve plenty of handwavium to get their desired result, except now the CS side would also mention how all of Tolkeen's new atrocities prove the CS were justified to try and stop them.

Overall though, things would remain relatively the same, even if some details are different. That's at least my take on it. Farewell and safe journeys.

[pblackcrow]

Question, which book has the LAST KNOW UPDATE on the Empress?...Prozac's wife. Do you guys think that she would come out of hiding, form a faction, and try to take over the CS?

[darthauthor]

I feel like the CS would:

First finish their war of unification with Free Quebec before starting a war with Tolkeen.
That or postpone the war with Free Quebec until the one with Tolkeen was over.

Between CS intellgience, their spies, and such, if I were CS, I'd try to push and trick Tolkeen into fighiting or supporting the fight against the Xiticix.

While I (the CS), if I had to, would make war with Free Quebec.

After Free Quebec surroundered or was conquored then I'd regroup.
Using the glitter boys of Free Quebec attack Tolkeen on two fronts.

[Blue_Lion]

well it was clear that the Tolkeen even though they thought they won had no intention of invading CS territory.

So if they had won, we would have a magic based some what fleshed out city to use as a back drop. (Some bad elements in it.) Instead they wait until it gets destroyed to give us a map.

A loss would have caused the CS to lose face and others feel they might have a chance if invaded. So no hope if the uber nazi decide to invade.

[Zer0 Kay]

What if Tolkeen won the war? Players went back in time with a game plan, sent a clean up crew after in, following the sorcerers revenge, got as many CS dead bodies as the could with a summoner and animate dead, then teleports them to a group of necromancer, who turn them into zombies, then they put them back into their armor and vehicles, and sends them north to fight with and distract the Xiticits. During this, one of them transform into a faerie, cast invisibility superior, and go flying into the hive. Placing bombs (that are hid in an D-Envelope which has been cast on a backpack and the backpack shrunken and then unshrunken) close enough to kill the 4 of the queens and egg chambers. Press the timer button, and teleport out. Bang, bamb, boom! The CS take the blame and become public enemy #1 to the bugs. The bugs actively hunt down and fight the CS on their own now.

Also, they kinda teleported a dragon in to the CS throne room when the emperor was doing one of his a live broadcast with son and 2 generals. So, they are dead now. I am considering making the empress the new head.

Why do you need to do all that for the Tix? When you go back in time wait ahead of the oncoming CS and when they get near the hive lob a few rocket at it. They'll come out and assume the large group is the one that launched the attack.

[Zer0 Kay]

If Tolkeen had won, all of the cringy CS fan-boys would be weeping uncontrollably.

Greetings and Salutations. When I read the above, my brain just translates it to ...

"If Tolkeen had won, the thread title would instead be What if the CS Won ..."

Which I find interesting, and probably fairly accurate. Because I doubt much would change.

In setting, Tolkeen would probably now be major villains. Stuff like human sacrifice, feeding babies to demons, etc. This would probably all be justified as them attempting to maintain their power and keep another CS from rising (or to defend against their allies or some such). Why? Because Palladium really, really likes focusing on villains. So, if Tolkeen won, they'd just be the new North American bad guy to hate.

Fans would still be saying the other side should have won for whatever reason. People would probably still argue most of the same points, as the books would involve plenty of handwavium to get their desired result, except now the CS side would also mention how all of Tolkeen's new atrocities prove the CS were justified to try and stop them.

Overall though, things would remain relatively the same, even if some details are different. That's at least my take on it. Farewell and safe journeys.

Which was PROBABLY KC's entire point with "What if the Earth..." but while he is concise, cynical and cryptic you expatiate, empathize and elaborate all the while I infrequently alliterate.

[Zer0 Kay]

Question, which book has the LAST KNOW UPDATE on the Empress?...Prozac's wife. Do you guys think that she would come out of hiding, form a faction, and try to take over the CS?

No. She doesn't seem political. Plus your assuming the evil C.S. didn't regress into an actual Misogynistic Patrarchy that would keep the masses from seeing any female in any real possition of power. That may just be within the political arena allowing females to rise to general as the military may not be seen as a place of power put as a subservient sword of the Emperor. Heck it may even allow women to hold political office seeing lower political offices as mouth pieces of the Emperor who hold no real power except that given them explicitly by the emperor.

[pblackcrow]

Please answer my question. Which book has the LAST KNOW UPDATE on the Empress? Oh and also which book has her stats?

[pblackcrow]

Please answer my question. Which book has the LAST KNOW UPDATE on the Empress? Oh and also which book has her stats?

[Zer0 Kay]

Iirc Federation of magic and None.

[Killer Cyborg]

If Tolkeen had won, all of the cringy CS fan-boys would be weeping uncontrollably.

Greetings and Salutations. When I read the above, my brain just translates it to ...

"If Tolkeen had won, the thread title would instead be What if the CS Won ..."

Which I find interesting, and probably fairly accurate. Because I doubt much would change.

In setting, Tolkeen would probably now be major villains. Stuff like human sacrifice, feeding babies to demons, etc. This would probably all be justified as them attempting to maintain their power and keep another CS from rising (or to defend against their allies or some such). Why? Because Palladium really, really likes focusing on villains. So, if Tolkeen won, they'd just be the new North American bad guy to hate.

Fans would still be saying the other side should have won for whatever reason. People would probably still argue most of the same points, as the books would involve plenty of handwavium to get their desired result, except now the CS side would also mention how all of Tolkeen's new atrocities prove the CS were justified to try and stop them.

Overall though, things would remain relatively the same, even if some details are different. That's at least my take on it. Farewell and safe journeys.

Which was PROBABLY KC's entire point with "What if the Earth..." but while he is concise, cynical and cryptic you expatiate, empathize and elaborate all the while I infrequently alliterate.

Sorry for my obliqueness!


Mostly what I meant was that it was an absurd question, given the size of the two entities in question.
In order for it to happen, most or everything we know about physics would have to change, or the nature of the Moon and the Earth.

And while we COULD imagine some set of circumstances in which such a thing might possibly arguably occur, why bother?

Might as well count the number of angels who can dance on the head of a pin.

[glitterboy2098]

unless a Deus ex machina or deus ex munchkin interviened to completely wipe the CS off the face of the earth.. any Tolkien win would only buy tolkien time. 5, 10, or 20 years later, the CS would just beat the wardrums, recruit, rearm, and go at it again.

and if tolkien won using terrorist methodology, magical WMD's, mass mystical warcrimes, or other blatantly evil strategies, it would just hand the CS more fodder for their propaganda department to use to beat those wardrums and recruit. in the official version they were already being portrayed as evil, if they went full out with terror attacks, massacres of civilians, etc, the CS would just use it to paint any follow on war as a crusade, and actually get the populace behind ideas like deathcamps, instead of having to hide them.

[Zer0 Kay]

If Tolkeen had won, all of the cringy CS fan-boys would be weeping uncontrollably.

Greetings and Salutations. When I read the above, my brain just translates it to ...

"If Tolkeen had won, the thread title would instead be What if the CS Won ..."

Which I find interesting, and probably fairly accurate. Because I doubt much would change.

In setting, Tolkeen would probably now be major villains. Stuff like human sacrifice, feeding babies to demons, etc. This would probably all be justified as them attempting to maintain their power and keep another CS from rising (or to defend against their allies or some such). Why? Because Palladium really, really likes focusing on villains. So, if Tolkeen won, they'd just be the new North American bad guy to hate.

Fans would still be saying the other side should have won for whatever reason. People would probably still argue most of the same points, as the books would involve plenty of handwavium to get their desired result, except now the CS side would also mention how all of Tolkeen's new atrocities prove the CS were justified to try and stop them.

Overall though, things would remain relatively the same, even if some details are different. That's at least my take on it. Farewell and safe journeys.

Which was PROBABLY KC's entire point with "What if the Earth..." but while he is concise, cynical and cryptic you expatiate, empathize and elaborate all the while I infrequently alliterate.

Sorry for my obliqueness!


Mostly what I meant was that it was an absurd question, given the size of the two entities in question.
In order for it to happen, most or everything we know about physics would have to change, or the nature of the Moon and the Earth.

And while we COULD imagine some set of circumstances in which such a thing might possibly arguably occur, why bother?

Might as well count the number of angels who can dance on the head of a pin.

No reason to apologize I know your that way. I espect it. If you weren't straight and to the point I'd worry something was wrong. So far it has been blunt no holds barred honesty. As always the sledgehammer. While Prysis has always been a peacemaker.

[Aermas]

Please answer my question. Which book has the LAST KNOW UPDATE on the Empress? Oh and also which book has her stats?

Stats for Erin Tarn (Lady Prosek) are in Africa, idk if those are the most current though.

[Grazzik]

Please answer my question. Which book has the LAST KNOW UPDATE on the Empress? Oh and also which book has her stats?

Stats for Erin Tarn (Lady Prosek) are in Africa, idk if those are the most current though.

... if you buy into that conspiracy theory. Not saying it's wrong, just not canon afaik.

From 2009:
https://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/ ... ?p=2126602

[Orin J.]

Actually....did tolkeen even HAVE a "victory" possible? Breaking the CS wouldn't have been in their power, and bloodying their nose would have just made the CS antagonize them more than they already did before. I'm not sure free quebec would have stayed allies long if tolkeen DID stuff the coalition long enough for them to get properly set up to be too hard for the CS to simply tamp down and tolkeen's in the more tenuous position in terms of trade since for some reason the coalition is the only force with a navy given how much trade relies on the lakes and mississippi river.

You can ask "what if tolkeen had won?" but if we don't know HOW tolkeen would be "winning" i dunno if we can ever speculate.

[Fenris2020]

Please answer my question. Which book has the LAST KNOW UPDATE on the Empress? Oh and also which book has her stats?

Stats for Erin Tarn (Lady Prosek) are in Africa, idk if those are the most current though.

... if you buy into that conspiracy theory. Not saying it's wrong, just not canon afaik.

From 2009:
https://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/ ... ?p=2126602

I never understood where people get that Erin Tarn is in any sort of romantic relationship with Prosek, let alone married to him.

[Aermas]

People change. The older generation of two diametrically opposed forces once being friends/lovers is a classic trope too. They are of similar age, Erin grew up in CS territory, etc. Plus it just makes for a great narrative. The grumpy military man fell for the idealistic hippie girl. They marry they have a kid. Later all the problems in their relationship build up & they divorce

[glitterboy2098]

People change. The older generation of two diametrically opposed forces once being friends/lovers is a classic trope too. They are of similar age, Erin grew up in CS territory, etc. Plus it just makes for a great narrative. The grumpy military man fell for the idealistic hippie girl. They marry they have a kid. Later all the problems in their relationship build up & they divorce

honestly i could see that rumor being very popular in the NGR, given their version of erin tarn is generally portrayed draped in the CS flag (and not much else) and is believed to be a major CS folk hero. (going by the bit in WB5.) so i could easily see the NGR's 'pinup girl' version being believed to be Prosek's mistress.

[Grazzik]

I never understood where people get that Erin Tarn is in any sort of romantic relationship with Prosek, let alone married to him.

Agreed. It's a bit too soap opera-ish for my taste. I'd agree that it could be a salacious rumor planted to distract or pique the interest of the masses, no different from the gossip-mongering of today.

[Fenris2020]

Yes, but I still just don't see where they get it from.
Kinda goes against everything in the books stated about any of the three characters.
Makes me want to point out that drugs are bad or something lol.

[Aermas]

Yes, but I still just don't see where they get it from.
Kinda goes against everything in the books stated about any of the three characters.
Makes me want to point out that drugs are bad or something lol.

They share a surprising number of traits & Erin Tarn knows a LOT about the Prosek family. You don't have to accept it, it's just some people's headcanon

[oni no won]

You can explore that possibility with an alternate universe where Tolkeen succeeded in crippling the CS enough that the CS no longer could pull off another offense without putting their own territory in danger. In that future, I would have made it so that Lazlo, New Lazlo, and the Federation of Magic would have worked together to counter the CS. I always found it unrealistic that the other factions would not see the danger that the CS presented in that if the CS was willing to go after Tolkeen, they would eventually turn their attention to both Lazlo communities and even towards the FoM.

[darthauthor]

oni no won,

I agree.

Although, it could be argued that Lazlo and the Federation of Magic would not work "together" I believe they would take the opportunity to work against the CS.
I believe Lazlo and/or New Lazlo would support Tolkeen, if not fight for them.
I believe the Federation of Magic would seize the opportunity to attack the CS.
It would be their chance for revenge and plunder.
They may not help Tolkeen but they would hurt the CS.

I am not convinced they would just sit still and be bystanders.

[desrocfc]

<snip>

Although, it could be argued that Lazlo and the Federation of Magic would not work "together" I believe they would take the opportunity to work against the CS.
I believe Lazlo and/or New Lazlo would support Tolkeen, if not fight for them.
I believe the Federation of Magic would seize the opportunity to attack the CS.
It would be their chance for revenge and plunder.
They may not help Tolkeen but they would hurt the CS.

I am not convinced they would just sit still and be bystanders.

Caveat: Your table, your game.

Lazlo: It might just be me, but I don't read the canon supporting Lazlo getting involved at all. Back during SoT perhaps 50/50, but with what's come out from MW, I'd argue they are much more concerned with Hell Pits and incursions. I never got the RAW version of the Lazlo book, so there might be something I'm unaware of.

FoM: Everything points to this being a super-fragmented cellular network of city-states and independent towns, with only a few major players seemingly more worried about others within the FoM "territory." I'd certainly "buy the brand" that promoted increased raids and attacks along the border, but these skirmishes would be limited to tactical (e.g. current Ukraine-Russo front), doubtfully ever getting to operational level (e.g. Gulf War). The major FoM players are too wary of each other to commit enough for offensive operations of any true impact. Would they have stood by? I don't think so either. Just not enough to impact CS efforts in SoT.

New Lazlo: Given so little depicts what they are and how they do things (comparatively), I could see them supporting Tolkeen, but from afar. Honestly, I see New Lazlo as little more than a speed bump for CS aggression towards Lazlo, which would be a decade or more away (if at all).

Tolkeen: IMHO was always going to lose, just not as tragically as presented (General Holmes, SMH). I could imagine them shifting their outlook over an extended conflict to match some of the more powerful non-human allies they procured, making the scenario more compelling. Perhaps Tolkeen became a serious negotiating partner with inter-dimensional allies that put them closer to the MW side of the equation (akin to Dunscon). Tolkeen was sliding into resemblance to City of Brass (Dunscon and his allies) by the end of the conflict; increasing internal conflict between the monstrous and demonic and mortals. Perhaps the Xiticix and MW made Tolkeen a convenient bulwark for CS security to the North and West. Lots of options, which is what made the SoT series good in terms of a campaign/adventure setting.

I would have been more interested in a "Tolkeen worldview shifts while it survives for longer than anticipated," then dovetail into the MW and see how that plays out, causing concerns for the CS' ability to maintain the socio-industrial war effort on a "multiple front" scenario.

[Grazzik]

In my games (also don't have Lazlo RAW, but I have the two Rifters)...

In post-SoT games I've set up Lazlo as having had undercover operatives on either side during the conflict gathering intelligence and trying to influence the course of events, as well as ensuring no spill over into Lazlo territory while they secured routes for refugees. No direct military involvement.

New Lazlo was more of a neutral zone / transit corridor near the conflict to get supplies, allies, or repairs (basically a type of unintentional "MercTown North" with a more magical flavor). Territorial borders don't matter much in Rifts since territory is only want you can hold onto by the power of the gun or wand, so no diplomatic concerns if a large missile volley goes astray and happens to take out a resupply or humanitarian convoy passing through New Lazlo "territory".

[oni no won]

I don't think there was ever a Lazlo supplement. Haven't checked the Rifter. Lazlo opted to not to stand with Tolkeen. They did not want to draw the ire of the CS. However, I believe they were willing to help Tolkeen residents establish a new home. They tried to persuade the Tolkeen govt not to fight the CS head on and instead relocate but to no avail. As for the DW, I don't know how much time passed between the end of Tolkeen and the beginning of the DW.